The Biblical Truth of UFOs & Angels (Ft. Karl Nell & Diana Pasulka)

we're experiencing today what we've experienced in the past and so is religion actually real you know the uh Latin root of religion is religare which means to relink and it's our belief on this panel that uh through observing UFOs we can relink ourselves with uh you know kind of a past epistemology that we've always had and that modernity is actually somewhat of an aberration from that epistemology so I have two amazing guests to discuss this uh with me first

wrote a great book called encounters and she in her own right is somewhat of a you know kind of a Mystic and Truth seeker and so very honored to have her uh we also have Colonel Carl Nell uh on stage um very excited to have him he's a he's a very polymathic thinker and uh it's always hard to present him because his CV is is very long and impressive but he uh worked at aerospace companies like locked Martin northr Grumman he's commanded every level of the army uh to Brigade um he helped set up Army Futures

command so he he ran a lot of tech modernization efforts for the Army and probably most relevant for this talk he was the Army representative for the UAP or unidentified anomalous phenomena task force which basically was directed to look into uh UAP UFOs I'll use those interchangeably in their existence and reality and so you know he's a privil for priv do a lot of classified information but here he'll be talking about the non-classified information and I want to start with you Carl uh to you

know Alay audience you know uh how would you convince them that UFOs are real because this whole talk is kind of you know predicated on that fact well thank you Jesse it's a pleasure to be here and great to be here with Diana and really excited about this event so yeah we actually uh looked into this area and so probably privy to a lot of information that's not publicly available so you know how can the rest of the folks out there maybe have some confidence that uh you know there's some reality to this subject so there's sort of three lines

of evidence that you can look at uh there's the first principles there's sort of testimonial from people that are in positions to know and then there's the data so like if we're going to kind of run through those from first principles uh you know the the going in position is probably the laws of physics are the same uh here that they are everywhere else and and undoubt there's some exceptions but in general that's pretty much accepted by everybody and so if you look at how quickly life evolved on our planet uh the uh argument that's usually made is that life is uncommon

and that faster than light travel is not possible and both of these things really have no evidence for them it's the exact opposite so for instance uh their blue green algae fossilized in stromatolites from 3.5 billion years ago and recent scholarship has indicated that life may have evolved even earlier 4.1 billion years ago so the Earth itself is five billion years old the crust has not even cooled by uh 4.1 billion years ago so there's evidence that life evolved on Earth at the earliest possible time even

earlier than would be reasonably um suspected there's microbes that can live in outer space that we've determined are viable and recently as of maybe a month ago people identified microbes that were in stasis in two billion year old terrestrial rock that were brought back to life so it's in essence life is either evolving very quickly or some sort of pans spermia situation going on that's what all the evidence sort of suggests if you look at the sun the sun's what's called a population one star there's 20 billion uh population

effective faster than light mechanism NASA's looked into this there's there's no dispute that the solution is a valid solution so it requires this thing called negative energy to work well negative energy is a component of quantum mechanics the cosmere effect which was known in the 60s and demonstrated in the 90s is evidence for the for the existence of negative energy the expansion of the universe which we've recently determined is accelerating is due to something called Dark Energy dark energy is negative energy so we've got an effective

solution for Einstein's equations that requires negative energy and we know negative energy exists this isn't an engineering solution but it is a theoretical solution so it was it's very much disingenuous to suggest that life is uh uncommon and fast and light travel as possible both of those are false so that's sort of the first principles argument once you kind of put that into the context of all the other evidence so let's look at testimonial now testimonial isn't uh hard scientific factual data but then you've got to explain why people such as uh Barack

Obama Donald Trump all say that UFOs are real they're in a position to have been briefed on this you can look at uh the uh admiral of the fleet Lord Hill Norton of the United Kingdom former M um Minister of Defense staff has basically said UFOs are real you can look at uh Heim Eed the father of the Israeli space program that says non-human intelligence is real you can look at Paul helier the uh former minister of defense for Canada has said non-human intelligence is real

you can look at uh Chris melon who's the first assistant secretary of defense for intelligence for the progenitor for the under secretary for Intel and security has come out and said UFOs are real you can look at David grush who just testified last year before the house committee on oversight to the effect that there is a government program looking at UFOs because they're real and he was accompanied by two Naval aviators that said the same thing you can look at Lou Alando who's a very famous uh UAP

astronauts who chased UFOs in 1951 over West Germany and it testified before the uh the United Nations in 1979 to that fact you can look at the uh incursions over the northern us ballistic missile warning system in the 70s where uh Radars were picking up UFOs and then you can look at in the 1960s the Readiness status change at of our icbms at malstrom Air Force Base where missiles were taken offline and then in the

Soviet Union an analogous thing where missiles were brought online and there Foy a documents and testimony to the reality of that there's an agreement between the former Soviet Union and the United States that's still in force intending to reduce the threat of nuclear war where there's a stipulation that either side will notify the other if UFOs impact their um missile early Warning Systems so people say well if this is real like why don't they just like you know um land on the White House lawn well in 1952 the radar visual sightings over

Washington DC for two weekends including air-to-air intercepts that precipitated the largest press conference since World War II up to that time and so people say well okay why don't just l in the middle of the day and um that's happened in 1994 in Rua Zimbabwe where uh craft landed and beings presented themselves to uh Elementary School age children uh in the middle of the day that that an almost similar identical incident happened in 1966 in West Hall Australia there's a a

concerted correlation between um UFO or UAP activity and nuclear sites the pantac site in uh Texas and the Hanford plutonium production Facility have numerous UFO um sightings and correlations and in fact there this extends to overseas sites even the Fukushima incident had um had correlations so so looking at the evidence both from the standpoint of first principles from the standpoint of people who would know and from factual information it's indisputable that this

is a real phenomenon and when it comes to UFOs I think there's this kind of misnomer that this all started in the 40s it started with the Advent of our nuclear program Diana you've done some amazing work about how this might comport with things that we've observed in our religious tradition and in history in the past okay yeah sure so um first I want to explain a little bit about what we do in my field which is called religious studies uh religious studies is a discipline that is academic so I'm not

going to we don't advocate for religion we're not ministers or theologians we're academics we use archaeology history um you know academic disciplines in order to look at Social effects of of basically religion uh most of the people in the world are religious more than 8 usually 83 about 83 to 85% of the world um affiliate with some religion so it's actually important to study religion I'm not going to advocate for belief in UFOs I'm going to tell you my story about how

I got into this because I was never I never thought about UFOs in fact until three years ago I had not seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind and U what a great movie that is by the way so um so yeah so I'm not going to advocate for belief in UFOs but what I am going to do is tell you about my entrance into this field which has ramped up considerably since I started in 2012 so in 2012 I was writing a book called Heaven Can Wait about what in my field we call Ascent narratives all cultures have their own

forms of this uh genre of of uh oral tradition or literature and what an Ascent narrative is is basically a person who is either touring uh the afterlife like Dante touring hell patory and then Heaven A pre-christian Ascent narrative would be the allegory of the cave uh in Plato's Republic where uh a person thinks that reality are these Shadows on the wall and ascends out of the cave and recognizes that wow there's another reality so this is what I was

doing I was looking at Ascent narratives in the Catholic history in Christian history and I utilized um archives so archives are I've been to the Vatican and looked at their various archives they have many uh over 53 miles of shelving of old documents um these are the kinds of things you see in archives material culture codexes you know things like this Philadelphia has a wonderful archive um so I looked at archives and I was looking for data about uh Purgatory

which I found but I also found reports of aerial phenomena by Catholic people from Europe and Canada and United States from 1200 to 1800 and I thought the were these were interesting because a lot of time s when Catholic European Catholics say saw something in the sky um they would have a moment of confusion what is this um you know what are the things they would see in the sky so they would see discs uh light orbs uh sometimes

they would see things they thought were flying houses okay the Flying House of Laredo um so these you know they would see these aerial phenomena and I took notes because I'm a researcher and that's what I do I don't leave data out so I had this long list of these uh writings sometimes they would interpret them as Souls from purgatory that needed to be prayed away um but they they saw these things and I thought that was interesting but UFOs never crossed my mind so I kept a long a log of these sightings so I showed a friend of mine

and said what do you think of these reports and immediately he looked at them and said they remind me of a a stevenh Spielberg movie they look like UFOs and I thought he was silly okay I thought he was silly um I didn't think about it again until I started to publish my information about these events and reports what now I call Angel contact events generally is what I uh how I refer to them um I started to get inquiries from people at aerospace companies and not just one I got a lot

and I was thinking that this was strange because this has never happened to me before when I was writing about Catholic history but it was this spe specific um thing which was the Angel reports and they wanted my data and they were very interested in certain things they wanted to know what did the people describe seeing um did the people describe uh light what was the color of the light uh what did the objects look like and most interesting to me did the people report

injuries okay did the people report injuries well yes actually they did but um so they wanted my data um I happened to meet one of these people uh this was quite an impressive person is I call him pseudonymously in the book that I wrote about this um Tyler and he had amazing credentials um he worked for our space program uh he was the government lison to Elon Musk for certain missions and he said that they had acquired debris from

at these as maybe metaphoric or historical you know not necessarily well not at all real that's not what we do in my field we're not looking at these as real things all of these very intelligent um credentialed highly placed people scientists were looking at these as if they were real and so that was shocking to me okay um I then looked back at my Tradition at the Catholic tradition and I looked at some of the most iconic um Angel contact events and

I began to understand them in a different way and one that you might know about is the um the stigmata so the Stigmata happened to St Francis of AI arguably the most famous saint of the Catholic Church you even though you may not be Catholic you've seen statues of him if you've you know gone into Gardens you'll see him he has you know usually a bird on his shoulder or something like that so A very charismatic person living in the 1200s in Europe and um he had an

experience of thankfully they have one of these here of this seraphim so if you'll see over here in the icon of this is a seraphim which I thought was really it actually convinced me to come I was like yeah I'll come and I'll talk about what I've studied and you know what I know about um so the seraphim um is uh is this Angel and it doesn't look like the angels that we typically know about and um well if you look at the primary source material of these contact events it looks like that and it generally has

an eye in the middle of it and it does it injure I looked at the primary source material for St Frank Francis of aisi and what I found was that when he had this contact with this thing that he described as a seraphim it came down there was light it had an eye and there are competing primary source reports but the best report shows that brother Leo who's about 15 he's watching and he sees that this is how he describes it that

this thing dealt harshly with Francis afterwards Francis was injured and the tradition determines that these injuries are called the wounds of Christ what happened was that this was a a very hush hush situation for Francis and Leo and when they went back to the convent um they he he tried uh as best as he could to make Francis comfortable because he was injured and they didn't tell anybody okay so it was completely quiet um it

was a stigma okay it was literally a stigma and so um he heent po died most likely from these wounds and what's so amazing about that story the burns on on uh St Francis of ais's hands really comport Ono one with what the CIA is now studying as far as people who've encountered UFOs so they work with um Gary Nolan who's a microbiologist Nobel nominee at Stanford who has actually has a foundation dedicated to this and the

CIA came knocking at his door and they're like we have this files of people who've had all these anomalous and they really comport with you know it's like he had you know electromagnetic radiation they just didn't really have the words to describe it but in using the term Stigmata and stigma uh we bring up this idea of non-disclosure this idea that power structures kind of institutionally gate reality from us so is that happening in the modern UFO context as well Carl yeah thanks for that question so yeah exactly so there's sort of six principles or

reasons for non-disclosure of this information from a government stand point the first being National Security like you don't want the adversary to know what you know and and uh and so on and then you know the second reason is sort of lack of a plan this is so profound and impactful uh and as Peter T sort of alluded you know there may be technology with unknown ramification and uh you know if you let that out there could have significantly detrimental effect so you've got this lack of a plan issue you've got this potential for societal disruption like the ontological shock that will come

non-disclosure of um uncomfortable aspects of reality is a universal constant across cultures and across time and the second piece as Diana alluded is that there's a hierarchy of being with non-human Intelligence being included in that cosmism which Diane is an expert at is at the root of both the Russian and the US space program and Consciousness is a component not only of metaphysics but of physics itself I actually want to get get into cosmism so this idea that I mean you uh

met a uh you know somebody deep in the space program who was a nuts and bolts you know contributor to our space program we think of our space program as you know Elon Musk is the tip of the spear all we have is sort of chemical combustion um but you're speaking to this guy who in your book you write about pseudonymously named Tyler who uh is engaging in sort of like Consciousness protocols and that's somehow a essential to his work and then you go back and you do research about the early American and Russian space

programs and how you know a lot of these people think that they're in touch with Angelic and in certain cases demonic beings do you want to talk about that yeah sure so um so cosmism what's that so there are uh when this when this happened to me in 2012 um I started to get my bearings after you know this recognition that people in Aerospace in some of these companies were actually doing this work and what this meant um I was shocked I saw my own tradition from

a different lens and I decided to go back and to look at the space programs the viable ones that would be the American Space Program ours and the Russian space program and so I started to do the preliminary you know work that a person does when they're looking at this is you know what were their belief systems um the ones that inspired these men in the early 20th century late uh 19th century early 20th century what inspired them to create rocket technologies that were successful and actually got us off the planet so if you

go to the Russian Cosmos tradition which is a similar tradition you know where they believe in you know like uh Constantine chikovsky believed in nhi and that he was you know he believed in this and he wrote books about it and he's the father of Russian rocketry they're Christian they have kind of a Christian overlay to this or framework and so I saw this as the beginning of the Russian Space Program and I began to do the same work with our space program and in fact I found it was Jack Parson's now of course if anybody knows about Jack Parson the patterns

so St Thomas aquinus had his Angel hierarchies uh amus who's a Syrian neoplatonist also had similar Angel hierarchies and they literally have taxonomies and categorizations for these angels they describe them they describe some of the effects of people that observe them some in some cases it's literally will say like irradiated light so it sounds like kind of electromagnetic you know damage or whatever so Carl do we have any kind of modern scientific Frameworks for how we should think about nhi or kind of you know them being higher on the kind of

Consciousness or evolution chain yeah so the uh the scale that's often used is What's called the kardashev scale Nicolai kardashev Uh Russian astronomer back in 1964 sort of proposed during the age where Optical astronomy was becoming popular and radioastronomy is coming on to identify civilizations based on the ability of uh them to access the energy of entire star so you could build this thing called a Dyson Sphere around a sun and so that would blot out the visible light but there'd be a big IR signature

and if you know um astronomers could detect this then they detect the civilization so he called that a type two civilization and then by extension there's a type three civilization that controls you know all the energy output of a galaxy let's say and type one civilization maybe a little bit more advanced from our own that's basically controlling the whole planet so this is the kardashev scale You Know Carl Sean talks about this Neil degrass Tyson Mitch ukaku it's it's like a popular thing I would argue though that the scales it's it's really not very instructive to look at like UFOs and UAP

because total civilization energy usage is like an unknowable thing based on um observations of potential craft or potential recovered material or biologics or what have you so there's a better model out there uh that I would recommend which is the universal civilization development model and it goes off of like what they have what they know and who they are and so what they have would be more about energy density than the magnitude of energy usage so energy density like if I've got a certain energy density I get fire I got greater energy density over a longer

time I can smelt metal ultimately I can do nuclear reactions maybe I can warp space and time maybe I can even impact the laws of physics so that's the physics of energy jacqu valet has talked about this idea of physics of information so how much about the nature of reality does this civilization perhaps know how much complexity can their ma can they manage what's the time constant for their thought process how many parallel paths can they contemplate as a single time this idea of Consciousness comes into play so this you know almost a physics of information

now is this other dimension and then the third dimension is U the ecological evolutionary Dimension what is the chemical basis for for for this life form where are they on the evolutionary path maybe not just a hundred years ahead of us maybe a million years what's what's it look like for a life form to be a billion years ahead of us what's their relationship with their environment are is it omnivorous they derive from omnivorous stock herbivore stock uh Etc so all these things create a phase space perhaps that would be populated by a range of beings and the

and the distance in this phase space you know we might call it the Hamming Distance by analogy with electromagnetic signal prod in might dictate the likelihood of a competition symbiotic or competitive relationship based on uh the likely hierarchies that undoubtedly exist Diana we're talking about hierarchy of being and man not being the Apex of Consciousness and then we're also talking about uh us you know scientists and engineers at the top of our space program using Consciousness protocols um if any of this stuff is

true I mean I I feel like a lot of people in the audience probably did come and walk into this room believing these things are we in Plato's Cave are we in this sort of epistemic cave and if we are how do we get out yes that's a great question so um okay first off I don't I don't think and I'm gonna reference Peter's talk okay because I thought it was really a great segue into some of the things that we were going to talk about you know we're we're told that um there's nothing worse than Armageddon but perhaps there is perhaps we should

fear the Antichrist perhaps we should should fear the One World totalitarian state uh more than Armageddon and so I would say that the apocalypse is structural uh so for anyone in my field um we know that the apocalypse is always happening okay there's always an apocalypse so the early Christians who were Jewish actually did have their apocalypse uh you know the the Romans destroyed their temple in 70 that was an apocalypse that those very specifically Jewish Christians were were knowing was

going to happen it happened but we go on things go on okay so what is it then so the idea that um that there is an out or that you know there's there's a solution to the apocalypse Plato suggests that uh it's it's in the allegory of the cave so he never answers the question but he gives this allegory and what it is is basically a conversation he calls it the dialectic and he says that um what you can do is you can have this conversation so there's a sense of Community baked in

here but it's a it's more than just a conversation it's a conversation about Justice it's a conversation about goodness so you're saying kind of contemplation of virtue literally allows you to ascend out of this world in some way in some sort of metaphysical way I'm not sure I do believe that's what he's saying and he's he's basically saying that there is a sort of conversation that you can have probably not a text message right and um and that it is a

it's that's what he presents as the out and I think if there's a third option it's going to be that so with Plato Diana is sort of talking about maybe a Proto architecture to religion and Carl we've had kind of offline conversations where you've said to me that maybe the esoteric version of a lot of the world's religions are actually sort of normalizable they actually contain a lot of similarities when it comes to kind of encounters with non-human intelligence do you want to talk about that yeah well I think that actually right so most of these sort of the gnosic tradition the

uh Sufi tradition in Islam uh the kabala in uh Judaism and even nulas vedant all talk about this sort of inward looking initiatic experience where you're you know you're transcending this reality and connecting with a deeper reality so there there's actually an interesting um study that was done the oldest uh large Corpus like significant Corpus of religious texts like in the world anywhere of any tradition any culture are the pyramid texts like fifth Dynasty

uh Egypt something like you know 2500 BC and so the uh egyptological interpretation of the pyramid text is funerary but there's a counter counterveiling scholarship that says well actually it's like really initiatory when egyptology was created it moved away from mysticism and went totally rationalist and so the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans anybody that actually knew Egyptian civilization firsthand knew that they were very esoteric and so egyp scholarship has

moved away from that and made the Egyptians extremely rationalist and very much funeral ritual based once you put the initiatic experience into the pyramid texts based on something called the said Festival which is essentially a kingship ritual that's known to exist then the pyramid and the pyramid text become an initiatic engine that um that the living might actually Embark upon and this is interesting because then it creates direct connective tissue between the Hermetic tradition and the Gnostic

tradition that came out of late period Egypt and then influenced um both classical Antiquity and then early Christian um theology so you've got essentially a a linear line that can now be traced potentially to the earliest tradition in an esoteric sense it's a great Meister reart quote U theologians May Coral but Mystics all speak the same language so I think it speaks to that sort of proarch and there's actually a story I think of Jewish kabalists meeting with the doy Lama and they're like talking about these non-human intelligences and the colors associated

with them and they're just kind of laughing about how kind of in agreement they are worldview wise I want to stick with you Carl because we are in a room full of entrepreneurs and people in venture capital and so they might be thinking okay this all this stuff might be real but I don't really see it and it's kind of ephemeral and like what does this have to do with me is that is any of this investable uh can we turn this into a company right Carl do you want to well right well I might hit that ball right back at you because uh Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into tailor towns in brown and

some other very interesting uh like heretical Technologies so I'd invite people uh unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts U but I would also submit to you if you sort of look at the Arc of technological development we're getting to the point that Fineman had talked about in the early 60s about there's room at the bottom which is by which he meant like we're getting at the level where we can engineer at the molecular level at the nature that that that nature operates and so these disciplines that uh originally appeared

to be disperate like information science Material Science the semiconductor Fab genomics Etc all look pretty much the same uh once you're able to engineer at the molecular level so information and materials start to merge you can come up with programmable matter perhaps self-healing structures self-repairing structures you're you're starting to move into that vanoyan machine uh level so I would suggest you know looking at that area then we alluded earlier to this thing called the kmir effect the

kmir effect you put two parallel plates that are conducting very close together and you would expect classically nothing would happen but what it actually ends up happening this was predicted and measured is that there's negative energy states that are uh created in between the plates in other words there's certain Quantum fluctuations that are not supportable between those plates and there's a pressure that's created between uh from the pressure outside the plates versus inside and the plates compress so basically that's extracting

energy out of the vacuum like that's like free energy like that's not disputable that's like proven fact so unfortunately it's not rep uh reciprocal nobody's figured out how to make a reciprocating machine you got to reset the plates to get the energy out so that is something that's potentially scalable to a battery perhaps uh but it be a one-hot battery if somebody can figure out a way to make that scalable that would be extremely uh beneficial so so those are a couple uh Avenues but just to sort of recap like the heresies right

so non-disclosure is a universal constant uh of society this idea of hierarchy of being cosmism you know this esoteric aspect of um reality being at the basis of the space program and Consciousness playing a role in both physics and metaphysics where our technolog is getting to the point where we can perhaps develop a physical basis for Consciousness and then develop Technologies out of Consciousness which oh by the way any more advanced civilizations probably already gotten to

should open uh I think our eyes collectively that there's sort of group think going on and opportunities that are right in front of our face are being missed uh because uh we're not incorporating these other aspects of reality so in that sense agnosticism is not like an optional worldview well Carl I'll take that plug to the bank I really appreciate it um I want to wrap up with you Diana Peter teal was on uh uh Joe Rogan a month ago and he was asked about aliens like half the conversation was about aliens and he cited your work

which was fascinating uh and he said that uh aliens uh are not only probably Angels and Demons they have to be Angels and Demons because of the Dual use nature of tech and the forcing function nature of tech and so the pulka literal thing I'd come to is the aliens it's not that they might be demons or Angels they must be demons or Angels if you have faster than light travel and both of those seem pretty crazy to me and so if

you have warp drive technology as a deliver as a delivery mechanism for a payload like a nuclear weapon that's you can't defend against that and I find it interesting you talk about St Francis of aisi seeing what was probably a craft or an orb a seraphim and um the last thing he writes in his diary is the Greek letter Tao which uh means conversion yeah and so it was like this forcing function conversion and so in the world in which you know uh a aliens which are

being you know at least in the form of UFOs seen at record levels now statistically or you know as far as data the data goes um is the veil falling you know the the the the word Apocalypse in its original Greek means the unveiling are we seeing these things at a greater preponderance because we are living in the apocalypse and what does that mean as far as how we should live our own lives yeah I do think we're living in a apocalypse I think that there is an unveiling going on and I think this is a great amazing time so yes I think so all right thank you guys yeah thank

we just had an amazing talk with Colonel Carl Nell and it's funny in our first conversation you brought up this concept of emergence yeah and this idea that you would get uh kind of interdisciplinary intersections between experts in various fields which the UFO phenomena kind of brings together because you can go at it with so many angles and I thought it was a really great conversation between a guy who in a kind of a nuts and bolts you know very hard-headed fashion look through a bunch of class ified material came out of that experience on the UAP

task force saying I think UFOs are real and trying to drive a lot of this forward through legislature and and other means and then a religious studies Professor who had no interest in UFOs and was just objectively kind of looking at religious as a phenomena and not even looking at it as some you know underlying metaphysical truth bumping into the UFO uh phenomena so what did you think about that talk I'm really impressed with his knowledge so so not only is he excellent at nuts and bolts and looking at you know the technical

aspects of UAP UFOs but he knows the whole history of religions back to egyptology and he's able to in a sense do what I do and what jacqu valet did right which was look at the historical record and find evidence of nhi um UAP you know whatever you want to say about it um angels as they have been termed so yeah I had a really great time talking with him and I think that that

um you also added a lot to it because you know both sides well do what I can I I I appreciate both of you uh gracing us with your presence and before our conversation uh Peter teal who's kind of you know helping Host this event did a really interesting talk on the Antichrist so he's been focusing on the Antichrist and he's been talking about it as um you know in history you know how has the Antichrist been represented when we think about the Antichrist um how best to conceal being

the Antichrist well that is to talk about it a lot and basically to you know push this this idea that uh there's an apocalypse okay and that we are you know we need to save save ourselves and do good okay and of course everybody's going to agree with that and that's a great veneer and then he reminds he reminded the audience that that's of course how the Antichrist presents as the one that is you know giving the solution and so I thought that was really interesting what do you think

about that I thought so too he cites Thessalonians peace and safety being the slogan of the Antichrist I think you look at a lot of evil that's done in today's world without getting too specific depending on which side of the aisle you're on but it's on it's on both sides and um I think you have a lot of today's evil is couched in this veneer of kind of utilitarian effective altruism world is my sandbox I'm going to you know uh rearrange the figures you know on on a global scale and like make

things sort of work out and that is sort of a form of evil it's also outward looking so it's never inward looking like am I doing bad or am I harming people you know and you met Renee Gerard yeah yeah I love his theories I'm a girardian too and Gerard always says you know to even spot a scapegoat you need a third-party witness because nobody thinks that they're doing the scapegoating and in fact we're doing scapegoating all day long and the the history of humanity is the history of human violence and that all of us have

sort of you know greedy greedy impulses and there's obviously violence up until you know Murder and large scale war and stuff but we do small violence to one another all the time through mimetic desires and jealousy and that sort of thing and we have to look inward yeah that's right so um his Professor was Renee Gerard and I was at Berkeley at the time at the Jesuit School of Theology and and Peter was at Stanford and so while he was taking these classes I was actually driving to Rene Gerard's

colloquiums to listen to him and I so I had been exposed to his theories When I Was An undergraduate at the University of California in Davis and his book violence in the sacred kind of broke through and really destabilized a lot of different disciplines and a lot of people didn't like it because it was such a giant Theory of Everything right it was really a theory of everything like a theory of evil right and and he Rene Gerard is a was a Catholic right and he did attend I believe it was Latin

mass and so the Jesuits that I was taking courses from they didn't want to go themselves because there was something kind of heretical about Rene Gerard because there was no they they said there wasn't anything really transcendent about Christ for Rene Gerard that he looked at evil as anthrop like an anthropology like you know that we were you know we there was no Transcendent or metaphysical evil that he spoke of I think what's so heretical about Gerard is and why he was s sort of

not accepted both by religious Scholars or by you know evolutionary biologists in his time is because he has this sort of theory of everything you know this kind of Proto architecture like to religion and so that's like real heresy yes it absolutely is yeah and we talked about that earlier in the context of Plato maybe another person who has this kind of Proto architecture of religion so we were talking you know off camera before this you were saying you know you interpret Plato maybe slightly differently than a lot of kind of uh quote unquote uh philosophers or

Scholars that's right yeah yeah so of course I I read Plato you know early on as an undergraduate and again as a graduate student but I really didn't start actually reading Plato until I encountered the people who believed in UFOs and I saw the um the ways in which UFOs have been you know concealed by our government within this environment where I witnessed harassment firsthand saw people who were um the quote unquote whistleblowers being harassed and you

know it's not pretty it's terrible and I was depressed so I thought you know how do I make sense of this and so Plato's Republic kept coming back into my head and Plato by the way he asked the question can there be a just society and why he asks this is because he's pretty horrified by what happened to his mentor his mentor was killed by his government which was Athens and his and Socrates was given it out but he didn't take it instead he said I live by the laws of Athens and I'll die by them and this is

just this is right well Plato didn't buy that it seems he has a dialogue between Socrates and glan and they asked the question can we have a just government and they go through all these ridiculous scenarios he's saying that no it doesn't look like we can figure out how to have a just government how do we do it well then he performs it he does a performative thing at the end of the Republic and so what does he give us he gives us two things that we call allegories or metaphors one is the allegory of the cave people are you know

see Shadows on the wall and they think that this and people are are showing them these Shadows by the way so we tend not to know we tend to discount that there are other people that are like or things that are showing us these shadows and we are thinking that they're reality and somehow we get out and we Ascend out of the cave and we recognize that wow most people are completely blinded by this okay so how how does this work them and so then he like throws in basically the first recorded or one of the first

recorded ndes which is the myth of er which is about the soldier who dies in battle and has a near-death experience and sees that people actually uh you know live again they're Immortal they have some kind of soul and so he tells this story well those are two very strange ways to end this book about the just society and so when I'd asked my professors you know what does this mean because I went back to them and I even asked my friends who are philosophers so what do you think about this uh ah it's just a metaphor it's just an allegory well I don't think it is so there so

what's then the takeaway the takeaway is a performative thing it's nothing that you can say Jesse do this and it'll be all right no you have to actually do it what is it well it's basically creating a community of people like the other person um so you know it's called the dialectic and it's a form it's a mystical conversation basically which is really hard for us to wrap our brains around what does it even mean to have a mystical conversation I think that if

people are watching this talk they've had a mystical conversation right and you have to like think of those times when you met that person who's like your best friend and every time you saw them the energy would change you know and you'd have such an amazing talk that's what he's talking about that kind of community community based on that because wouldn't you die for that person you know wouldn't you do those things that are noble before that friendship yeah okay so that's the kind of thing

that he's giving us that's amazing well yeah and I think a lot of Plato readers think of him as fully allegorical and they don't think there's some metaphysical architecture that he's actually talking about like the myth of ER I think is a great example so the cave is another example but u in the case of the myth of er he's talking about this uh myth where you have anamnesis you have this idea that there's this primordial Soul self that kind of has knowledge of all of your incarnations and then you cross the

river of forgetfulness into you know an Incarnation where you forget your former self and um maybe through kind of a near-death experience or a mystery ritual which by the way Plato we probably now know went through the linian mystery rituals himself that's right and so he probably believed this like to all the people that think it's just an allegory you know then you experience noesis you you you regain knowledge of your kind of IM Immortal Soul do you think that literal reading of of Plato is an important kind of

overlay that is missing in today's reading I think that a lot so you know I went through graduate school and of course any kind of literalist reading of any of these texts is abhor so people are going to say no you can't read it literally like that and I know okay okay so yeah did he really mean it this way well not necessarily literally there's a cave you know but he meant it in a very real sense and that's what I'm trying to to get at here and um and yes there's

you know this goes against the grain of of both liberal and conservative readings of Plato right it's a completely mystical reading here it goes beyond even you know some people read it as this is the subjectivity of you know human subjectivity it goes beyond that because it poses something other than the human itself or himself or herself um so so yeah so another thing too is that the early Christians actually utili this text so in uh you know we found now

in the 1940s we found a lot of libraries of the early Christians and we got an insight into what you know influenced them well the allegory of the cave and Plato's Republic influenced them you know so they found something very Transcendent Transcendent and very jesus-like right in these texts so it's a lineage you see I didn't know that yeah wow what are there examples of kind of connections between early Christianity and I guess Martin Luther

King I think wrote uh an essay about the Pagan continuity hypothesis yeah and so I you know there's this idea even the Last Supper might have been kind of a mystery ritual of sorts Elaine Pagel also writes about that that's right so we're learning so a lot of people think that Christianity is set and it doesn't change right well Archaeology is showing us and material culture is showing us so many things that we are learning about the early Christians and also I would suggest that the Greek Orthodox Church really does actually know about this

connection between Socrates and the Greeks you know the Greek Socratic philosophers basically and this lineage that goes directly into Christianity early Christianity it's a hellenized Judaism right so it's a Judaism that's completely infused with Greek thought like you look at the Apostle Paul um all of the Greek um all of the scriptures of Christianity are Greek Greek are written in Greek okay so so yes this this makes sense wasn't Paul supposedly According to some Scholars kind of a cabalist too

like he was a in the meraba kind of um you know Ezekiel tradition it looks like it I mean you know I'm not a new testament scholar so I don't want to go out on Limb and say for sure you know that was but yeah if you look at his you know his conversion it looks similar to meraba you know uh and I do have friends who are New Testament Scholars and they won't they don't feel comfortable coming out and saying these things but they'll tell me in secret they'll say yeah yeah you know Jesus too by the way I'm like really why don't you write a book about

that the book of he goes up on the cloud that's right that's right it's it's amazing how much some of these kind of esoteric religious practices actually comport like if you look at the uh heot the Palaces of you know Jewish cabalism or whatever you have seven of these palaces well in Egypt you had the arit you know the the seven and then you know in Rosicrucianism you know he goes up through seven levels and you know he he has to leave a garment behind on each level at each level you always encounter

kind of uh you know these different beings um you know some are good some are bad but they sort of you know are all testing you that's right so it's very fascinating so we're talking about this tradition this merkaba tradition that seemingly talks about a a form of community if not a government a form of community a Ecclesia right that's the the early church Greek term for the community right that's based on these

connections with merkaba seraphim what have you these kinds of uh knowledge bearers messengers of God right and so how does that how would that look today that's a great question I don't know how how would it look today Diana well I think that I think that we're seeing it now I think we're seeing the very beginnings of this type of recognition that they're you know UFOs yeah that's what I think is going on and there's you know this recognition that

we're not alone okay and I mean that was the premise for a lot of those schools was that we're not alone but you have to get right with these things yeah okay so that's what that's the whole idea was they were looking inward so they weren't looking outward so the whole tradition like of Paul he changes his name because you know think about his conversion it was he was Saul and he was living a life of violence of all things right he was very violent now why he was violent I don't know but he was persecuting and wanting Christians to die and then he

has this merkaba situation that he seemingly didn't cultivate right it happened just spontaneously to him it seems you know at least from his position he didn't call it into his life and then it changes him he changes his name and then he works for these communities he gives his life to the formation of these communities so how should one an average person sort of conceptualize this stuff because you know it seems like if you read like William James there's kind of an outer ring of religious people that don't

truly believe in the metaphysical kind of architecture underneath the religion they just kind of show up to church or synagogue or a mosque and they kind of pray and they do the daily rituals maybe it's this Pascal's wager for them where it's this like hyper rational if I do this thing maybe there's an afterlife and then you have these Mystics sort of go straight at the truth but that seems kind of dangerous from like a you know institutional power structure perspective like often these Mystics are misinterpreted or clamped down on by

human power structures and then even in a more primordial sense or whatever there's the parable of the four rabbis who all try to go up into the heavens and like you know one goes mad two die and like I might be botching this but like one one makes it right and so it's this like extremely straight and narrow treacherous path yes yeah yeah yeah it is right so like why should anybody take that path no I totally agree I'm in agreement with that uh but when students do come through my classes you know I teach basic you know survey of religions

you know kind of thing and when we were in the Christianity section I'm in the South so there are lots of Christians in my class you know they're they go to church and so I say why do you go to church and they don't know right and I say do you you know what about this part of the Bible where you know is talking about this angel or that angel and you know this and that and they're like well that doesn't happen anymore right and so I think that they're you know so I try to get them to to interrogate you know their own religion like what does it say

why are you Christian you know or why are you Jewish like why are you doing this you know is it just because this is your the cultural tradition your heritage because it could be and that's fair enough okay yeah um but what I really liked about Carl Nell's talk at the salt uh conference was that he basically did the same thing and I thought it was really interesting but he did the same thing of well you know you're talking you're talking to relig people who are religious and all of a sudden they're confronted with the reality that what they think is this

metaphysical thing is actually real well that's going to be a shock for them are you implying that perhaps we as a society may not be ready for disclosure I I guess I would draw an analogy though for people that believe in a certain Faith tradition what ever that Faith tradition is and hold to that And subscribe to that in a very serious and devout way and and you know sort of pose the question even for folks of that ilk and I would count myself as one if you're confronted with the reality of

your religious belief system like the reality of the metaphysical uh an angel a a Reser from god what have you that's going to be a SE State change in your in your way of dealing with reality right even even though you already believe it right so it's one thing to believe and it's another to know and I think in this context this this phenomena has an analogous the potential for an analogous effect both on the individual and on society and I was actually shocked that he said it and I was like Wow uh that's

kind of what I say to students but never in this never so bluntly like never like no this is a re reality you know because I can't really say that I you know maybe it's a reality maybe it's not a reality um but there's whole tradition of it yeah well it's it's still like one of these things where believing this stuff you know it can either sort of burn you or save you like it feels like even angels themselves are kind of misinterpreted as these like cherubic friendly beings you know in in in the modern day and in fact if you look

historically at Angel interactions that you know a lot of which he write about uh these can be extremely violent and they can you know deal with you very harshly and they can set you on a path that might be sort of more morally pure they might excavate sort of bad things that leave you and you know you become better or whatever but it can be extremely painful in the process yes I think so so one of the things that was shocking to me when I first started doing this was the reality that the government was looking into it as real whereas I was looking into it as

truly historical metaphorical not real okay then I recognized that a lot of people felt like it was their duty to contact these things right and that again that brought me to another level of like what a bad idea you know because historically well here's an example so when I first started corresponding with AER Aerospace people people in Aerospace um corporations and things like that um they they wanted the data like they wanted to know what did European

Catholics see um when they saw an angel or a demon or something like that uh did did they have any effect like what kind of effects did they have on their bodies and things like that and did they have any did they report like other types of effects well yeah all that data is there so you know I started to look at it and I met Gary Nolan so I met Gary Nolan pretty early on probably about 2014 and he shared with me his own research so he had been recruited just as I was being recruited he was also recruited to work with people who were

you know in the program I guess you could call it or I don't know how to really discuss it you know he the government was looking into uaps and he was a person who could help okay so they recruited him and I got to see some of the research that he was doing and some of it had to do with the effects that it had on people and they were like radiation Burns and things like that so looking through the historical record I saw that indeed there were cases where people reported being hurt you know in

in this way um so yeah so it's not the best idea then to just decide that this is something you're going to undertake and I never propose that by the way I always say learn learn about it but don't engage in doing it like I propose for people if they're interested if they actually have their own religious tradition check it out go back to it and look at it again so if it's Judaism go back to it there's a rich Heritage Buddhism same thing go back to it there's a rich Heritage my My Religion

uh Catholicism go back to it there's a rich Heritage there so I I think that's probably the best way to start looking it and it's so fascinating that Aerospace uh you know people are reaching out to you as well as you know people from NASA uh it does feel like we're on the precipice of kind of this new age where a lot of this stuff seems to be coming out because the conventional history of a lot of these programs and companies are just you know

chemical combustion nuts and bolts you know it's all kind of this materialist reductionist science but in fact I think when you speak to a lot of people at these these organizations they're extremely open-minded and it's almost like science cleaved off in like the 50s or 60s and hit a culdesac and kind of Academia and then Aerospace just kept going but it's this also you have this religious veilance on top of it as well where like the early NASA missions had you know uh Horus and Osiris and um it

was like I mean you told me in our last interview right it was like uh Greek and Latin you know on symbology and yeah first century Latin first century Latin that's right the Empire The Empire wh why do you think they kind of were paying homage to that tradition yeah that's such a great question so first I don't know yeah okay nobody would ever give me a straight answer yeah but I did ask do you think there's somebody in charge who was like yeah like I know

that the like Greeks had it right and you have to sort of deal with these nhi in order to get to space and like this is the program or do you think it was some emergent thing that like they were kind of softly in touch maybe that's an unanswerable question I don't know but um I believe that so my own opinion about this this is just my opinion after looking and talking to people that are you know the people that are doing it actually you know doing okay so um they would tell me that this was a way to pay a AG to the sponsors they call them the

sponsors and I you know i' ask do they read Latin you know kind of thing like really and they would say absolutely I think that it's a large tradition that goes unacknowledged in our history and you think it's sort of hermetically passed oh for sure absolutely it is yes but that's fascinating because that's sort of tying today's space program to like maybe you know hermetically sealed you know uh Egyptian you know Traditions like like how far back does this s

you do have the same you know you have the impetus that stays there it's not as weird as Jack Parson's but it's weird enough it's definitely not Christian it seems to be Greco Roman you know with the the recognition that that that there are these deities right you know and uh does it go back to Egypt I don't know I don't know you know I am not an Insider so I don't have an inside track I just can spot the myth that's being called a

myth but it's actually real that they're like create you know they are they are doing this intentionally well I think that's kind of this myth in disclosure overall because like both of us are on the outside but we've like poked you know we've poked around like we have like a decent mental map that's probably like better than just the average person who's like not really you know interested in this stuff right and like my my serious inclination now that was not the case a few years ago is that there's like no one in charge or that

like if it is there is something in charge it's this like Loosely distributed weird thing that's like emerging and has like a a mind of its own and maybe there are some people kind of tapped into deeper layers of reality but it's certainly not commensurate with some clear clearance system or classification system within the government yeah that's okay so I fully on board with that theory and you know because you can't we can't prove it can we yeah but it's just a theory but I'll give you some examples but we've met

enough people who like people on the outside are like that's the Deep State architect of the Godfather of the UFO stuff and like we meet them and they're like well they don't know a lot of stuff that this other person knows and you know there's like a lot of that going on yeah a lot of it so that made me actually think about the oral tradition of it because I was around enough people to know that they figured out their missions not from asking people or having someone tell them they had to figure it out on

their own and that process was hard for them and they didn't even know that they got it right until they got an award for it like two years later yeah so they didn't know and they would also tell me things like well people were on this Mission but they never knew until they got the the uh you know the uh the card or not the card the patch yeah until they got the patch or or whatnot or they you know they figured it out and so I was beginning to see it as when I I have friends that are uh indigenous and uh

they occasionally tell me a couple of things you know about their worldview and the way that they're uh like Australian Aboriginal culture works right and apparently there's like a very um succinct and transmissible oral tradition that is really old like you know what 30,000 years old or something like that and it has to do with you know nhi and things like that and so I begin to see our space program like that like

wow that's how it works there's an oral tradition that's transmitted but it's not transmitted through this memo you know so the Declassified memos what do they really mean you know when there's this type of tradition yeah well all the memos seem like they're kind of groping in the dark and they don't really know what these things are I'm a big fan of this mid-century inventor Townsen Brown who we talked about earlier with Carl Nell and he says it's like you know fish in the water they don't know you know the they just see the holes of the ships over over top but they have no idea what

those ships are transporting or why they're there and that really you know feels like where we're at but you bring up the this idea of a patch what what do you mean by that okay so the patches so um in the space force or whatever we call it today you know where people are on to send things up into space satellites or what have you uh they work on these these um and they get these patches okay so a lot of people know about these patches they have a Roman God on them or something like that and

they usually have the the Latin that describes the the mission but in a way that's really opaque and even making fun of Outsiders right so this is the mission you could even you know go online and see a lot of those patches and I've known someone to have like uh at least 150 of these patches whoa yeah so this is a person whose whole life has been doing this work wow well I think about um the person you pseudonymously

named Tyler in your book and he's this NASA Mission controller it seems like he's using kind of Consciousness protocols to make the launches work he's this very interesting figure but then he goes to the Vatican with you and he has this conversion experience and it's almost as if uh what he looks into in the Vatican archives confirms that his the work that he's been doing is somehow mystical and like way more like globally meaningful than just this nuts and bolts

like we're putting satellites in space sort of thing yeah that was really an amazing um experience for me to witness the conversion that he went through uh we started at the Vatican looking at the the records of uh Joseph of copertino and a and bilocating sister um Maria agaga and we also had exposure to uh Peter gomel who had been a Papal adviser he's a Jesuit um talked a lot about the Templars by the way interesting yeah and

um do you remember what he said about the Templars I do okay moving on so that's where it started so he started to to reexamine his life I guess and I could see that process cuz I've seen it before and I had a feeling that when we got to Castle Galo at the Vatican Observatory where he was going to meet astrophysicist monks and you know those people that live like that they have you know that's their mission and their

mission is fused is it fuses religion and science I knew that that that would be his place and that he would probably convert at that point and I was right so then we left the Vatican and we went there and then he spent a lot of time the archives looking at Copernicus and Kepler uh and you know Originals by the way and also uh looking at uh electromagnetism it's amazing and things like that and I just like could couldn't get him out of the archive just like

glued to these books it's incredible and the other thing I wanted to follow up on from our first interview is you said this remarkable thing and I kind of like just I don't know I ignored it bad interviewer or in my case or something because cuz you said this really profound thing you said that when you went with Tyler to the Vatican Observatory they knew who he was before having gone there and that tripped me out when I was watching it over in the edit because I was like why does the Vatican Observatory they're obviously very well respected and well staffed

when it comes to real astronomy but how do they know who a NASA Mission controller from the US is yeah not only that but when we were there we just happened to correspond with a that a trip that um all these young scientists from Issa so the European Space Agency they were all there too and so brother guy who's the director go Bri guy consel Mano he was he was giving them um you know a really awesome tour and talk and everything so he introduced us and so he

introduced me and they were like you know kind of cool clap clap clap and they introduced Tyler with his real name and the whole place just erupted into this yes like that and that was a recognition for me that Americans kind of don't know what's going on but they did yeah they were to to them he was a hero yeah it was really really cool that's incredible the other interesting connection with Tyler is he met Chris bledo I think or before you yes he did

yeah and they had a relationship and I think uh Ryan bledo who's Chris's son said that um Tyler had told Chris that he was part of a group with towns and brown who I just mentioned so towns and Brown's this like fascinating mid-century inventor who I think you know made more discoveries in the world of gravity than meet the eye you know might have tied gravity and electromagnetism together and that has implications for time as well because if you can shift gravity at all you can shift time and general relativity and he would talk in his private life

constantly about time travel and so what I I found just so fascinating is Tyler tells the blood sees that he was involved with a group that was based in NASA and the Bahamas and town and brown was the president of this group and time travel technology was involved and I would totally discount that and think that's probably wrong if I didn't know so much about town and brown and I know he spent a ton of time in nasso in the Bahamas and with a very interesting kind of cast of characters well you know

that's so fascinating because when I knew Tyler he was always he was always talking about time travel and really yeah whenever a new movie about time travel would come out he would go see it like The Adjustment Bureau yeah yeah that's fascinating yeah so um I mean wow that's amazing it seems like we both know so yeah you're kind of like the the person who talks about uh brown right and then he's an invisible or he was

until you right and then when I met Tyler that's what I thought I thought more people have to know about this because he's an invisible but he impacts so much of our history and we don't even know it that's a way yes I feel the same way I felt like it was my duty or something cuz he he died penniless and I'm convinced his work made it into the B2 stealth bomber this like Premier you know stealth bomber you know and he was he was paid off by this Finance here at North Grumman like a ridiculously low sum of money for the rest of his life

and and and then not even that I mean I think he literally like unified the field experimentally and so like that's so sad everybody knows who even Tes Tesla got ripped off but people know who he is and he has a great car company named after him today nobody knew who this guy was and and he he created he was such a patriot he was such an American Patriot you know it was Cold War era and so these discoveries obviously have implications for you know weaponry and all sorts of other things and so he created tons of disinfo about his own work to throw people off the

trail and so he kind of died pennes in obscurity on Catalina Island w and yeah so you felt you felt the same Duty with Tyler I don't know what I felt I felt a sense that you have like a sense of Injustice kind of you know that we want the world to be transparent let me give you something this can be something that um I think is is relevant um during the time that I knew Tyler uh there were other people like him Invisibles like I called them the Invisibles right and one

of them had passed away and this is a person whose family didn't even know what they did so there was a big sense of sadness on their part because they they couldn't eulogize him correctly they felt because they did not know and so Tyler actually asked me if I would help them write the eulogy so I did I wrote the eulogy and during the time period of writing it was so emotional because I was like wow you know how how do I say this you know so I helped them I helped them write it and uh they

really they reached out to me afterwards and they were uh it was consoling to them yeah because they because someone outside the family recognized their pain that's so amazing wow yeah well do you think that these Invisibles are sort of outing themselves right now it seems it seems like some yeah it seems like they're they're done with this kind of life right and they want to but um but again you know we talked about the reasons why I had to go back and look back at Plato's Republic which was a

text written through trauma the trauma a government killing Socrates the mentor of Plato like a teacher who was a wisdom teacher he wasn't doing anybody any harm um so in that context maybe the the whistleblowers should be should maintain secrecy I don't know I think that uh it's not a great Outlook to tell you the truth I mean in the long run it is but there's a a a spot that's bad it's really bad and most of the the time is bad right so Christians are told you

know the world world's up not for you the this place is not for you I mean really that's what Christianity suggests and in a sense that's what Plato's Republic suggest too because is everybody going to do the dialectic with each other and kind of do no no nobody cares to do it but so do you see what I'm saying there there are groups of people who do yeah you know does it have to be for everyone no there's no sort of universal fate and uh one needs to sort of save themselves and but do that in a sort of maybe communal

way I think you have to do it in a communal way I mean even Buddha said so right he said that there were three keys to Buddhism one is that you can do it the other one is um the Dharma which is the teaching and the teaching is could be anything right it doesn't have to be a scripture um it could be an event that teaches you could be having kids by the way you know it's a really great way to like learn about life and yourself um so there's the Dharma but of course there's the S and you can only do it in a group because you have each other to help each

other that's fascinating well I think that's a perfect note to end on Diane I really appreciate your time and it's been a great day kind of a marathon and uh yeah I'm excited to see what happens in both in UFO world but also in the World At Large because we're in very there's a there's a a confusion proverb you know it's like better to live in interesting times than good times or something and that's right well we definitely live in interesting yeah we can rationalize our world by saying that or well anyway thanks for talking with

me Jesse it's always fun to talk with you it was a blast yeah