Breaking UFO Story: ‘Immaculate Constellation’ UFO Program (Ft. Michael Shellenberger)

you happy great thank you than you sir yeah I love coming in hot he comes in hot every time and we punish them by giving them multi-million dollars more than they ask for every year 13th times yeah unbelievable what are the other times uh I've done energy the environment um climate change censorship maybe you'll be in this chair one day oh God M be bored to tears how did you get into

this topic to begin with it's a great question I mean the first piece I did was on maybe the craziest of all the cases which is the famous Brazil crft in Virginia and I did it in part because I lived in Brazil I Portuguese I thought the movie was incredibly interesting and I ended up doing some original reporting to verify some of the claims that James Fox was making I interviewed someone that actually had seen the photographs of the alleged creature and I did a two-page

spread for New York Post and then the subject kind of went to sleep for me and then I only came back to it after David gush's testimony and I just wanted to poke around and see if I could verify some of the claims and I've done about I guess four or five stories since then and we've both gotten to know David grush for the last couple of years and he's also a big for me source of confidence because you can kind of feel the earnest I mean he has mild autism you know attention to detail and focus

on truth and then you also he'll say a thing and it just gets corroborated continually in sort of your open source findings have you found that as well yeah I mean there's certainly this is so this is an issue that I would never use even just two sources for I feel like when you're in something that is so um On The Fringe you know genuinely on the edge of you know of what we understand that you need multiple sources and that you have to really check them out and so I've been pretty cautious you know in my

reporting I also you know am careful to be like this is what people are saying this is what people in these positions to to to know are saying I remain agnostic about the essential nature of the phenomena I don't know what it is you know I think that the other motivation was that this came during a period of time when we were reporting on other governmental abuses of power the most famous one was censorship but we've now done stories on entrapment by FBI we've done stories on disinformation operations and so I find myself getting

certainly fascinated by the phenomenon like everybody else but I think that my motivation has been like this is bad that the government is behaving in these ways and that we need and that really that's sort of that if you're kind of list top functions of Journalism kind of at the top of it would be governmental abuses of power how do we make progress on the nature of the phenomena itself because I thought you did a great job of Towing that line and maintaining kind of epistemic humility around what this thing is right how do we get closer on

that I mean it seems like we're getting closer you know there's a read by the way the report that Michael just tweeted because maybe that'll get you a little bit closer it goes in a lot of detail yeah I mean it seems like there's people are gaining courage so you know certainly cowardice is courageous but so too is courage and so you start to see the whistleblowers becoming more comfortable we've had whistleblowers who are Anonymous that are that were now on a different issue wanting to attach their names to it I think you're seeing more people come forward as I always stress I could never encourage

great job protecting your Source in this case you were questioned pretty intensely do you know those sources I do are they within the Department of Defense I can't say you can't say or you won't say I won't say say okay why not because I protect my sources and I think the but you're not naming them it's a big department but many of us on my side of I would say it's far too big so you're talking about the Department of Defense sources from within the Department of Defense I'm I'm un I'm not willing to uh reduce the potential

Universe of my where my sources might be I will say that after I published I was told that this program that the usap was actually um managed by the Department of Defense but held at the White House Roger that's a single source and I I don't have multiple sources to verify that thank you sir I did my best to trick an answer out of you but was partially successful Madam chair are you yeah who was that the congressman Congressman Higgins

Congressman Higgins was like I tried to trick you yeah yeah it's hard I mean you have to remember not to reveal their anything about them their gender their agency I try to keep the universe pretty big but also want to sort of say they're in a position to know you can't be so vague that people don't trust it yep but I ultimately think that the report itself which came out now it's been I guess probably about a month since my article or maybe a month and a week and I think that the facts will speak for

themselves I didn't have I didn't I'm not going to say I verified every single part of it perfectly but I did spend some time looking around just to make sure it didn't look like this was compiled from existing lore or existing cases the accusation of course with the UAP issue is that this is a case of circular reporting y circular reporting is a real problem I mean it's a you you want to avoid you know somebody told somebody something and then you thinking that you're getting something from two sources but it's actually just from one so there's ways to to prevent that but I

uh it seems like pretty new information and certainly the Revelation that there exists a very large strategic intelligence project to evaluate this information in a way that you would expect someone to evaluate it with a lot of still images video images human reports combining them you can see there's a very interesting section where the source goes through the different kinds of uaps and the different psychological effects biological effects I think that's a really fascinating part of the report it's so fascinating it's

almost like this total information awareness where you have signals intelligence you have human intelligence you have these databases that we don't have access to and presumably this is this is I think a really important thing when it comes to the topic is people ask you know where is this program housed is it in NASA is it in the dod is it in the doe the truth is right it's sort of all factions of all of those things it touches on all those things and the Departments themselves in many cases don't have proper oversight over these

kind of factions it's kind of this cargo cult of what was set up from the ' 50s that's right yeah I mean the the this my original my sources said that it was a DOD program after I published a source said that it was it's a it's a usap uh unacknowledged special Access program controlled by the White House but administered by the dod I think there's there's definitely playing they're playing somebody's playing some games here to keep this stuff hard to track or or easier to deny for example so but I

think like you know for the bottom line for the public and for members of Congress is that behind the scenes the Pentagon and the intelligence Community doesn't just have a bunch of blurry fuzzy videos I reported um and this is from a single Source but I I I reported it pretty carefully a report of a very highquality video shot from a helicopter of an orb coming out of the ocean about 20 miles off the coast of Kuwait being joined by another orb and it you know high definition full color

you know and I also point out that it was shot in a helicopter on you know I'm assuming high quality cameras but this is not some you know the one of the concerns around maybe why they they don't release this information they don't want to reveal how the military collects this information well I think everybody knows that we have helicopters and highdef cameras so that can't be one of the reasons and I think even in the other some of the other Technologies you can also you know you can you can redact it you can hide stuff you can blur stuff you know I I I think it's

I don't believe that this is being kept secret from us simply to protect methods I think it's being kept secret from us for deeper reasons and some of them may just be ego Legacy uh you know psychology politics there may be some criminality there may be some ethics I don't I don't buy at all the excuse that if that they're they're they're highing all this stuff just because they don't want to reveal how we capture this information Lou alzando uh famous amazing whistleblower when it comes to

but yeah I mean I think it's a very interesting moment there's always been speculation that alzando had more direct involvement in Crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs um and but again it's another case of why he needs we need to have the proper protection so that he can reveal what he knows how do we get that because we had the gager amendment but it doesn't seem like we've had this you know what we you would expect the floodgates to open after that right right A lot of these people would come out how do we get the proper

protections because that seems just so key and essential I remember you know we spoke and you know didn't say anything about the source but you did say he was very scared and so that seems to be like these people can't be extremely afraid of reprisals right they have to be able to come out and be in public not just on public right yeah exactly I think I mean there's a a friend of mine who's a a journalist who covers this very skeptically say you know if there really was this proof and you really had people

that were close to it and they wanted to come out they would just do so without concern for reprisals and I understand what he means in the sense that you know if you had you know photographs and film of alien bodies or craft or whatever um you could potentially get into a hearing like this and release it and you would have the public protection not to release it I think that most of the cases that I've seen of the whistleblowers is that they they don't have that they have a lot of the photographic evidence and certainly there could be

reprisals including criminal prosecutions I mean you know I think progressives in particular forget that Barack Obama you know uh prosecuted more you know government leakers whistleblowers than any president I think than all presidents combined before that so the federal government has certainly shown itself willing to prosecute and persecute and retaliate against whistleblowers there are protections but there obviously inadequate because we're not able to get that so I mean I think it's look we've got we've got a president elect who whatever else you think of him has

committed to a much greater set of transparency around everything from the JFK files to the Epstein to the uaps to co Origins to all sorts of government secrecy it's accumulated over the last 50 years we had our last big intelligence comme reform in 1975 with the church committee hearings I think it's pretty clear that we need something like that again and that it it it needs to be and should be bipartisan I don't see any reason why it should become an ideological issue and you saw it I mean I think this issue is a beautiful issue to work on because it

is so bipartisan and it's wonderful to see Democrats and Republicans both asking for the same thing you're touching on possible Trump disclosure where you know could be broad disclosure we could have reforms in all these different areas is there the existence of an alternative history where UFOs play a central role in a lot of pivotal events when it comes to American history you hear rumors about JFK rfks and consideration for various posts in the Administration do you think things come out of that nature where it turns out

you know you have the Howard hunt for example former CIA operative who claimed to be involved you know in some of the JFK stuff saying you know he was killed over over UFOs uh he said that to his son do you think any of that might kind of become transparent I mean it's hard to it's hard to I me you would think that the stuff that they're continuing to hide would have to be pretty bad MH for them not to release it you know Mike Pompeo was asked about the JFK file said that there were people who were still alive who would be affected by it so

like it must have been pretty bad if that was the case you know obviously there's tons of you know rumors that and suspicions that the US government was involved in some way in JFK's assassination I personally I don't know but I find it extremely suspicious that they won't release the full JFK files uh there's even uh some theories that it might have even involved UAP you know so Pompeo when he was interviewed by judge NPO aano very awkward kind of segue from you know was like are you going to release the JFK files he goes no you know we can't do that some of the people

are still alive and then he goes uh you know I've seen the the UAP files as well or something and so that I found very curious as well yeah these don't hold the dark secrets that everybody wants to just hold up as the bogeyman I saw the UFO files too uh we've got bigger problems yeah that that he sort of that he thought they were sort of connected some sort of inflation yeah yeah um it's hard to know but it's uh it is it is suspicious and look I think it's I think the thing you always have to remember is that you know for people that say there's absolutely nothing there and it

was just one guy that killed JFK great well then release the files like you know there's you know there's uaps or nothing it's just it's great so then then why not the transparency I mean that's the ultimate problem for the the the Skeptics you if you're a skeptic you should be the greatest advocate of transparency and disclosure because it would make it would make all of your enemies look like fools and yet it's kind of suspicious that we don't see that it's almost like what we're hearing is there's nothing there and therefore the government shouldn't release the

files uh not exactly a consistent position to hold you mentioned John Greenwald in your testimony who runs blackf va.com he's constantly using the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve all sorts of you know formerly sensitive documents in the government he's doing a great job with that and I think he toes the line because certain people he's sort of skeptical of in UFO whistleblower world but he's also it's very clear that he's just been stonewalled in all these cases like he tried to Foya um uh uh fast Walkers and

NORAD said this is you know actually just very sensitive material right and that was actually mentioned fast Walkers was mentioned in the Wikileaks email between an aerospace contractor named Bob Fish and John podesta podesta is mentioning fast fast Walkers as these vehicles moving through our outer layer of defense the defense support network running by the Air Force so right fascinating stuff well I think Greenwald is underappreciated and in part because I think he's a little bit like neither fish nor foul he doesn't he's not

someone that endorses the nhi hypothesis at the same time he says it is a possibility for me I want I thought that um his work needed to be highlighted a little bit here because he has established that the secrecy has been growing not not declining there's a there's a part there's one story in the UAP community that sort of says that we are in the midst of disclosure he says no that's not the case at all that we're actually having less disclosure than we have in the past I think that is important

because I think it undermines the idea that this is all I mean either hopeful or not hopeful but it undermines the idea that we're sort of on our way I think that um Greenwald is also important for pointing out the inconsistencies in the the claims made by the Pentagon and the military as I have there's a great quote from him which is they'll say one thing on Monday and they say something else on Friday so you know on the issue of the videos there's some complexity to it but basically after some of these videos were released uh the Pentagon said yeah

there's no more videos just those three videos and then he was like well you know really and then a different branch then said well there's other videos but we're not going to release them so he also has established that there's other videos that they won't release for National Security Reon the final thing was important about Greenwald is he noticed that they are justifying secrecy under a law enforcement provision rather than just National Security and that is very suspicious because if it's true then we should know what the law enforcement investigations are at least the members of Congress should um but if it's

possible that they're also just abusing that then we're just seeing I mean I held up you know at one moment the redactions because it's just so absurd that they're redacting how long they've been collecting reports how many reports they have and what uaps could be as though like there's not already a lot of speculation about what uaps could be it's really as though they don't want to admit for some reason that they are considering the more freaky hypotheses yes because they don't want to give it legitimacy but that's just not how it works like people become people don't become less suspicious when there's

censorship they become more suspicious so if you don't want conspiracy you know theorizing then you should release more information Congressman Eric Bur speaking of you know people conspiring uh he was looking into the issue of biologics he also said who can I talk to when it comes to The Gatekeepers of this program Chris sharp just wrote an amazing article at The Liberation times about the whole history of UFO crash retrieval programs and he said that uh guy at the CIA Glenn

Gaffney was the gatekeeper for this program and he actually blocked the transfer of this craft that locky had collected in the 50s and was trying to transfer to ASAP to Big low Aerospace to study yeah do you think that any of this is true does it comport with any of the conversations you've had with some of your sources it's I I I can't I don't I can't I haven't verified it but I mean it doesn't it sounds completely reasonable I mean these reports of Crash retrievals and reverse engineering are decades old it's not new I mean there's

a guy named string Feld who did a huge uh you know number of Investigations into it when you really get into the crash stuff you you also get these really conflicting accounts makes it like a Hall of Mirrors and you get them from people that are really credible saying really different things this is really dramatic on Roswell there's a lot of interviews that have been done so it's a tricky one I I I very rarely find people I these Witnesses I really I don't think that the any of them are very many of them I should say are deliberately trying to hoax anybody

which just makes the phenomenon more and more fascinating like I mean one of the things around the Roswell um the alleged Roswell crash is that it was was it one UFO or two UFOs and taken down by radar but how could it possibly be taken down by primitive radar it's an advanced craft I mean the whole thing is mysterious I mean the thing that everybody raises is if you've got Advanced craft how are they possibly crashing so much um other people say well that's you know no it makes sense and you know if we had ships going into other planets they could crash but yeah

it's just um or it's a donation I know and yeah yeah for sure yeah I mean after a while I mean I think part of my interest in the in the secrecy stuff is like the I just I sort of go you can spend so much time on the speculation at the end of the day it's like just give us the freaking files just let us in and show it to us and and even if you don't know it or understand it or it's not pleasant just I think maybe that's part of our own evolution is that we're I mean look at I for I mean you look back

now and you go like that's weird that anybody was was upset that the they discovered that the sun was revolving around the earth like why would that bother you and maybe that's how we'll look back on this it's like why was anybody upset that you know there was some you know something else going on than what we thought do you have any sense of what these biologics might be no I mean I don't I mean that's also another you know mystery is um you know I mean you had this really strong testimony last year from grush um you

know I think that I thought elzando basically supported today AB there's a fair number of people that do that and you know and there's a way in which I kind of go I mean I think chair chairwoman mace was like you know like we got to this you know we have to you know show some movement here I mean I kind of go I'm not sure how much you know society and the Congress can do it's really up to the executive branch I mean I I I worry like if if Trump

doesn't do it then I don't know what the mechanism to get it done is um so you know um you know I think I'm glad to see some advocacy organizations on this you know one possibility is just that there needs to be I mean I looked at it and I thought maybe we need a much broader movement not just on UAP transparency but also on all forms of government transparency I mean the church committee wasn't just on CIA was also on FBI B power so 50 years ago so 50 years ago I mean it's definitely you

know overdue I mean I I sort of felt the same way about whistleblower protections like there's a you know birit has a piece of legislation for UAP whistleblower protections obviously I support that but it's like FBI needs whistle blower protections for you know when they expose entament which they do quite a bit and CIA needs it so it does it does feel like something has shifted seismically but uh yeah I mean I think if it doesn't happen the next couple years I would start to be very pessimistic my optimism would shift into pessimism if it doesn't happen the next

couple years well you a huge part in Breaking the Twitter files this idea that there's kind of this revolving door bureaucracy between three-letter agencies and places like Twitter that are just involved in were involved pre Elon purchase in systematic censorship of users Shadow banning all sorts of things like that does something like that happen with the Trump Administration can can we get you in there and can you be the official you know disseminator of some of this stuff or I mean obviously as a competitive journalist like I would love to be able to get in there get those files you know the truth is they should be released to

everybody and I'll cover them with everybody else I do think you know I think it's uh you know I think it's salutary I mean I one of the lessons for me from the Twitter files is that it is possible to keep conspiracies secret and that I think there's this is a funny issue because people say well if there were really you know if the government were really covering up there' be whistleblowers and then you get the whistleblowers and people will go well how come the whistleblowers don't have more evidence it's you know I mean they're all counter Intel all of them are yeah exactly exactly so you know I think what

we saw with the Twitter files particularly I covered the FBI and CIA information operation on Hunter B's laptop that was kept perfectly secret you know until the Twitter files showed that it involved Aspen Institute you know no one knew then it involved the the media was being kind of programmed or you know pre-buy with brainwashing beforehand nobody talked about that and so these operations I I don't have I have no I do not have a hard time believing that US Government C of carrying out and keeping secret cover operations and you brought up a couple

of very interesting names on Joe Rogan that were involved in suppressing the hunter Biden laptop story that are also involved in the UFO story yes care to talk about that well I mean one of the I mean the big name is is a gentleman named Garrett graph he's uh he was involved in in you know pre-b punking the hunter B and laptop in the summer of 2020 with the Aspen Institute along with his supervisor Vivian Schiller Who was the the head of NPR the head of media at Twitter New York Times executive um

credible career as a high level media executive now they're at Aspen and Garett graph comes out with a book on UFOs earlier this year called UFO and it's basically just a debunking of all these cases you know I mean I haven't gone through it I mean you really need to go through each and every one of them but one of the things you discover is when you get into some of these alleged debunkings is that they haven't actually debunked it they'll often come up up with something well I think one really Salient one is there's there's been this argument between U

Mark Von um I my but's last name reman remens dorf remen dorf yeah is it yeah I so sorry Mark Mark awesome yeah Mark has been having this argument around the gimbal UFO video with a a gentleman named Mick W yes I think Mari has has kind of won the argument that it's not lens glare or some sort of optical illution it's really and I think X formula Twitter has been important to

actually prove it I think there's a lot of that going on when it comes to uaps and it just requires you know it's part of the problem with the issue being marginalized but you would normally have academics or others that had budgets and they were staff time and phds and whatever's in pure review journals that would kind of go through this in some way I mean it's not to say that peer-review journals don't have a lot of misinformation or corrected information but You' at least have that sort of debate but as it is now it's sort of left to to um nonprofessionals I mean

there's really everybody's nonprofessional but yeah I found it I guess the bottom line is isn't that a funny coincidence the guy that was involved in a hunter B disinformation operation is it was also involved in a UAP information operation whether it's all disinformation I haven't evaluated but I find him a suspicious character no and that book makes UFOs out to be some like novel curiosity that you know if you're a member of the real intelligen you should laugh at or whatever it's like not serious it's a little bit more subtle in a sense that I mean with you have these kind of gradations of

debunkers you have this gentleman named stepen Green Street of the New York Post who's just and with Sean Kirkpatrick who are just dismissive and ridiculing just oldfashioned UFO ridiculing angry this is terrible we shouldn't even be talking about this you have slightly more sophisticated with Mick West and then you have Garrett graph which is a bit more sophisticated I mean he does acknowledge that there are uaps and there are things that we can't explain I think he even does the orbs you know the orbs are kind of the UFO of the moment you know like if in the 70s it was discs

or 50s and 60s it was like disc orbs seem to be you know getting a lot of attention and so they kind of acknowledges that they exist but then says I mean one of the things he says that I think is very um disingenuous is he says that the military and the intelligence community and the government just doesn't know what they are I mean I don't think he knows that like I don't think he I mean how could I mean if he does know that that's another issue problem because the members of Congress don't know that we don't know

that the only established position is agnosticism one of the themes that keeps recurring with these hearings when it comes to UFOs is the inability to get firsthand sources of information in a skiff yes you had the unique ability to speak to somebody in a you know some compartmentalized setting how how can we uh allow them to speak to a firsthand witness is is that possible well my understanding is that that members of Congress and their staffers have spoken to Witnesses um I I don't know the exact

status of it but um you know they don't have the authorization or they they don't have the permission to declassify you know it's just um I mean obviously members of Congress are are frustrated about that um I mean it's the same problem with the documents and with the rest of it they're just clearly not being given the authorization to to de classify or make these things public yet where do you think we go from here what do you think what what what comes next in this in this topic do you think we make progress or yeah I mean I I

think that the there's been a huge emphasis understandably from the UAP movement to C there ISM movement to try to persuade people that uaps are real and then I think another part of it to persuade people that they're nhi I think that the right focus is to persuade people is to persuade the public and the government to have transparency and disclosure and I think it helps to sort of at least for people that are genuinely agnostic to acknowledge that we're agnostic I think that it's um you know I think it

actually makes the case stronger when you point out that you know look if it's some peculiar form of mass psychosis or social contagion or Chinese balloons or whatever it is we still need the disclosure and the transparency yes I think it I think you inspire a little bit more trust from the public on that issue and I think focuses on the government secrecy rather than on the nature of uaps I think there's a separate sort of cultural uh movement phenomena that really is exploring what uaps are it involves taking really detailed cases and testimony and that's

all to the good and of course that's great um but I do think at at a kind of policy and political level this sharp focus at going after the government secrecy the coverups the disinformation is absolutely essential I think it's a chance to go from strength to strength I mean here you've got like I one of the only bipartisan nonpartisan movements I see you saw every single member of Congress today on the committee both sides recognizing that there's something real there I've this is the 13th time I've testified before

Congress it's actually heartwarming like literally heartwarming because it's so awkward when you testify normally and the Republicans and Democrats are just attacking each other in the nastiest ways it's like shocking to see them being Kumbaya one love up there uh gives me a lot of Hope for this movement and it's actually part of what inspires me to want to work on it it's nice to work on something that actually brings people together it's also a reminder because there's so much hostility you know in other parts of the society whether it's in the media or from the debunkers on social media or

from friends and family I don't like it it's nice to see that when you have a group of lawmakers that have actually dug into this that they're actually they're clear there's something real here and that this is not um it's clearly no longer a French thing there was no uncomfortable giggling there's no uncomfortable able ridiculing there was no character assassination and I mean so I kind of go strength to strength this could be one of the most important social movements of the 21st century you're a traditional nuts and bolts journalist who's done amazing job on all sorts of things you talk about the

decline of San Francisco you talk about nuclear energy you talk about big Tech overreach with this issue it's very interesting because you can try to maintain some sort of impartiality but if you say that they're probably is some sort of non-human intelligence then I think it's tough to say that it's a bridge too far that maybe they're actually somewhat involved in the disclosure process you get into biologics somebody you know a congresswoman asked about um hybrids there are rumors that have come up to

the hill um of a secretive project within the Department of Defense involving uh the manipulation of human genetics with what is described as non-human genetic material potentially for for the enhancement of human capabilities hybrids are any of you familiar with that yes or no so how do you deal with that how do you draw the line and in the world where there is non-human intelligence do you think that they are sort of you know involved in the process of disclosure yeah well

that's very interesting I don't know um I mean jacqu valet who I think we you know you and I talk about a lot we both respect him I mean I've read a lot of his books maybe most of them or all of he believes there are nhi he also thinks that there is three levels of deceptions one is from the government the second is by the people that have the experiences and he doesn't mean it as a criticism he just thinks people don't completely uh often represent exactly what happened often leaving out the the freakier high

weirdness elements of it high strangeness parts of it and then there's he says the nhi themselves are being deceptive it's a very interesting argument because you know there's these really funny cases like for example there's this great case in France where a you know a very trusted respected farmer discovers a a spaceship on his land and then he goes up to it and then there's supposedly an nhi there holding a tray full of of soil samples and other vegetables and he was like oh I didn't see you there and I was just coming by with this it seems absurd like if you

have some Advanced civilization like why would they be caught off guard by a farmer with soil samples um it almost feels as though something's I think he would sort of say it is creating I think he kind of describes as like a control mechanism that's sort of creating a particular perception something that wants us to think that these are extraterrestrials and that they're under investigating who we are and expressing concern about nuclear weapons in the environment I always point out that you didn't need any non-human intelligence to point out that nuclear weapons were very scary or that we need to protect

the environment we didn't need anybody to tell us that we knew that uh starting you know right away after World War II so that's a very interesting hypothesis I mean I think um it's hard I mean I know for a a close colleague of mine who is uncomfortable with the subject doesn't like it that it's certainly I'm in a stronger place with that person to talk about the need for disclosure and government openness and whatnot it's also the case that a lot of people that are involved in this um the journalists the people reporting it they're involved in a lot of uh of anomalous phenomena

they're you know there's Skywalker you know Skinwalker Ranch is a very freaky and there's a lot of freaky stories that comes out of it it's used by the debunkers to sort of discredit you know the broader sense of it Part of Me Goes you know um think we should be a little softer with each other a little bit more tolerant of each other there's so much mystery I uh have came back to my faith about six years ago um yeah and it's uh I'm a Christian and I believe in God and

I think we have souls and I think there's some part of us that's Immortal and and it's a faith like I didn't come to it because you know I discovered some secret thing and and I'm open about that and that's my faith and um I think it's natural that people that that that have a have a faith or that that that believe in that see paranormal things would be more attracted to this I don't think it means that there's nothing there and there's also people that are genuine atheists that are also interested in the phenomenon so you know I I kind of go I

I I think it needs to be okay for people to ask the the seemingly ridiculous question and um to have those conversations and allow them uh they shouldn't be censored they shouldn't be stigmatized or demonized they shouldn't be used to attack people's credibility I think it is good to always you know as a journalist or as a as you know an attorney or whoever some an investigator it's always good to say here's what we can prove and here's the evidence here's what we suspect but can't prove yes and here's some various possibilities we get

into a lot of trouble when people start to confuse their own theories with the things that they know so that's a completely legitimate thing to be policing but allowing some amount of conversation and speculation imagination and you know and spirituality I think people I think humans need yes uh a sense a Transcendent moral purpose a a sense of transcendence I think that when people think they don't need that they end up creating they end often turning their politics into a religion and that's taking them to some dangerous

places so much better to be I think uh you know transparent about what it is that we're talking about and you know like if you were asking me for proof of God I wouldn't be able to provide it for you but if you're if you're going to ask me for proof that the Pentagon is hiding UAP programs I think I I have much better proof of that well you've provided amazing evidence you're an American hero after what you did today but also a lot of your other work and uh just just grateful to be able to discuss this with you and and on the note you ended on absolutely and on the note you ended on I was just with um Colonel Carl

came out of the idea that we needed to understand God's creation and it was never you know and you get to a point where then it starts to kind of problematize some older ideas but I think if one of the if one of the reasons that the government is not revealing what it knows is because it worries about the impact on faith I think that's overstated and um you know and that we just need to be treated like grown-ups I mean I think if you're a person with real Faith you're uh you know and some non-human intelligence is

telling us that we're wrong I'm not sure why we would believe them any more than we would um anybody else well this was an honor thank you m thank you J it's pleasure for me how how can people find you uh shellenberger ATX or the name of our substack is public and if you have anything interesting to come out with contact Michael thank you yeah I will or me I will protect all sources for sure absolutely and did an amazing job today thanks appreciate you