Graham Hancock: Aliens, Atlantis & the Apocalypse

there's been lost knowledge but it's never been completely lost it's not it's been everywhere around us some of it's been in every day every day is haven't understood or according to a professional midwit journalist at the guardian my next guests highly acclaimed docu-series is the most dangerous Show on Netflix you've been described as a pseudo archaeologist someone who Cherry picks your data and that makes him the perfect guest on our show American Alchemy if

you're going to roll your eyes at the notion of mother Ayahuasca go drink some Ayahuasca and then see if you're going to roll your right the docu-series is called ancient apocalypse and the journalist is internationally acclaimed best-selling author Graham Hancock since his 90s cult classic Fingerprints of the Gods Hancock has been accumulating an abundance of evidence to show that our modern historical narrative That civilization was born a mere 6 000 years ago in Mesopotamia is wrong and incomplete it's gonna absolutely demand

a rewrite of history as we know it Hancock thinks that the human species has been suffering from Mass Amnesia and that maybe hunter-gatherers were taught basic Agriculture and astronomy by Remnant survivors of an ancient civilization that was wiped out in a mass extinction event there's testimony from the Ancients here they're saying an enormous flood happened and that there was a time where there were only a few this hypothesis known as the younger driest impact Theory sustains that an

Atlantis but crazy speculations on Atlantis notwithstanding I personally think it just takes some childlike instincts and basic inference to believe Hancock's argument about the younger driest impact Theory there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to show that a global cataclysm probably did occur let's just take these high-level the modern field of archeology was born a mere 200 years ago let that sink in the very idea that we take is complete

Dogma That civilization started in the Fertile Crescent six thousand years ago that concept was only established 200 years ago with the discovery of the great capital cities of Assyria and archaeological sites our dates for civilization get progressively older and older take quebecally Tepe an ancient burial site in modern turkey dating as far back as 9000 BC and involving the complex assembly of 50 ton blocks it's

underground mapping techniques are getting better and better not to mention you have entire swaths of the earth and deep ocean that may have been above sea level in times past the Amazon forest which is the size of the Indian subcontinent and the 4 million square mile Sahara Desert that have basically gone completely untouched and unnoticed by conventional archaeologists massive black box territories is the

epitome of human hubris finally you have hundreds and hundreds of flood myths across cultures that had no contact with each other the amount of corroborating evidence for some flood having occurred is overwhelming that story does not sound alone that story is one of approximately 2 000 flood conditions right and for Skeptics to unequivocally discount these texts because many of them are religious in nature is itself dogmatic and unscientific these are the memory banks of our species it's in

these myths that the memories are passed down I like to characterize Hancock's books as oscillating between trippy and speculative and very hard-headed and scientific it's almost as if he'll write one book for the esoteric psychonaut and then the next for the modern scientific skeptic his archaeological accounts have been well covered on Netflix now and by other podcasts so in this very raw long-form interview I wanted to go off off the deep end with him and get into the secrets of the Ark of the Covenant DMT and its history and its Transcendent

qualities and his fascinating beliefs on Aliens which he writes about in his 2005 hitbook Supernatural so without further Ado sit back relax and hit subscribe while I explore the mysteries of our forgotten past with this week's American Alchemist Graham Hancock different parts of the rain have different activities but you know that don't you maybe you should interview me

five times what two of those clients were legal of course there was a time when anybody could anybody could climb the Great Pyramid but here's my little anecdote I found xantha and I together found at the top of the Great Pyramid on the South Side overlooking what used to be the Boat Museum uh on one step down from the top we found the name p initial P Hancock 5th of April 1916. well my grandfather was Philip Hancock no yes and he was in Egypt he wasn't

yeah he was in Egypt during the first World War I still couldn't be 100 sure it was him and at that time my dad was still alive and he had my grandfather's Diaries which were little things little Diaries dozens of them and I went through to the date given and I opened that page and I saw just one line and it said climbed Great Pyramid today oh my God that's crazy that was my granddaughter what yeah so I I am kind of connected to that oh you're completely connected that's enough

but why did archaeologists tell us for so long hunter-gatherers couldn't do it and we needed agricultural populations that could generate surpluses that could pay for the Specialists the theory but that was so now with archaeologists are saying was I guess we were wrong about hunter-gatherers so yeah the funny thing about Michael Shermer there's a story about him and I think his wife Jennifer and they were I was like on their wedding night uh this mechanical clock starts playing in the other room that was an heirloom from her father okay and it hadn't

played and it was like completely broken it hadn't played in like 20 years or something and her father was supposed to walk her down the aisle but he had died prior to the wedding and it was this mystical moment for him it's this beautiful quote and I'm going to botch it now if I were to paraphrase it it's like we must throw away the dogmas of science sometimes and make room for these sort of anomalous mystical Michaelson moments he says this in the article I I'm I'm very happy to hear

that and and and I would say I've I've only known Michael personally since 2017 when when I had a debate with him on the The Joe Rogan Experience since then I've had some some correspondence with him and I I've found him to be a much less dogmatic skeptic than I had taken him and just just recently I had a had an email from him concerning my ancient Apocalypse series on on Netflix where he kindly said that he felt that made her I'd made a good case for my basic

proposition that we're we're missing an episode of the human story that there may have been a forgotten Lost Civilization of the Ice Age and I think to me that speaks well of Michael's Integrity but that he that he's willing to step out of an entrenched position when the evidence speaks to the need to step out of it rather than just sticking in it all the time around so many of my critics do so much of our planet has not really been subjected to detailed intensive archaeological survey I think it's extremely premature for archaeologists to be so confident in their model of the origins of

civilization they should have some humility and allow some leg room for alternative suggestions to come in instead of just trying to smash down anybody who says something that doesn't agree with their model perhaps be just a little more warm-hearted a little more open yeah allow that and and see what's good in the in the alternative evidence as being presented rather than just trying to find bad things about it and have a more constructive dialogue instead of this you know we know best and we're going to smash you down and we're going to insult you and humiliate you and call you any names we can so childish really I don't even know what

arguments that like if they see something like Gobekli tepey has been that's been discovered since the 90s yeah and so it's I don't even know what arguments you have as to how the Fertile Crescent is sort of the cradle of civilization after that and then in your amazing documentary docu-series rather Netflix ancient apocalypse one of the episodes is focused on right anybody you have seven or eight others that are pretty convincing as well and so at that point it feels like kind of overwhelming that the consensus should actually shift

to yes at the very least there should be there should be willingness to consider the possibility that we have missed an important chapter of the human story you want to know one reason and I'm sure there are a whole host of other reasons but why they reflexively might deny this as well is because I think it interestingly dovetails with stories in the Bible and and other religious texts around great floods well the flood of course is a you know is a very important story in the Bible I think what a lot of what a lot of people who are who are

into the Bible don't realize that that story does not stand alone that story is one of approximately 2 000 flood conditions right that have found all around the world exactly the clearly documenting a global phenomenon to the sub of these inconceivably gigantic floods that occurred at the end of the last icing and if uh comment from the torrid meteor stream were to hit the earth it

could create A big flood you better massive Comet entered our inner Solar System's orbit around 20 000 years ago over time this comet has disintegrated into smaller space debris like the very famous 1.5 mile wide Comet Inky Anki and other comets in the southern tourists crossed the Earth's orbit yearly from September to November while the northern Torrid streams crossed the Earth

starting in mid to late October both of these streams caused beautiful light showers and give astronomers panic attacks why because they can cause massive damage on Earth in the form of impacts and Air Bursts we're not dealing with just little dust-sized particles that burn up in the upper atmosphere and that just as it was a danger to humanity twelve thousand eight hundred years ago it hasn't gone away and it still can be a danger to us today just take comment Shoemaker Levy 9 which collided with Jupiter in 1994. it was only a little

over a half mile wide but its impact on Jupiter was the equivalent to 6 million megatons of TNT or 600 times the destructive force of the entire Earth nuclear Arsenal and isn't there speculation that the 1908 tunguska correct event was possibly correct correct because the tunguska event took place on the 30th of June 1900 may it was an air burst it exploded in the air flattened 2 000 square miles of trees didn't kill anybody because it was over an uninhabited area of Siberia but did

enormous enormous damage and the fact that it occurred on the 30th of June suggests very strongly that it was part of the Tory media stream because that is the peak of the torrids in June NASA's DART program aimed to prove that humans can deflect asteroids with satellites and prevent Earth impact in fact spacecrafts launched in November of 21 and September of 22 intentionally crashed into dimorphis a minor planet Moon of the asteroid didymus

successfully altering its orbit the problem is dimorphous has a diameter of 200 meters not even close to the half mile width of Shoemaker level it's interesting that NASA Dart mission is taking place now because we know that in the next 30 years or so we are going to be crossing a much more lumpy and much more dangerous part of the touring meeting that's interesting I didn't know that yeah in fact um Dr Alan West one of the scientists from the comet research group he points that out that the next 30 years are a danger time

there are plenty of unknown comets in the annually passing Torrid meteor stream that have completely cataclysmic destructive potential so we need to invest in advancing our deflection capabilities here of course it's not the only Global threat there are many other Global threats all of which require an elevation of consciousness of the human race we have to be get out of this this tribal mentality where we're all hating and fighting each other right and get into a more loving and more positive mentality otherwise it'll be like that movie don't look up we're trying trying

to tell you that the entire planet is about to be destroyed yeah yeah it was an excellent movie by the way yeah yeah yeah and it's it that it sort of connects with all of this yeah um I think the part where I struggle most with and what I'd love to talk to you about because I feel like most interviews with you kind of focus on the abundance of evidence that human history is much older than we realize but I I know you well enough to know that you've done speculating beyond that and so let's demarcate this to the audience

that this is speculation and we don't know but it's interesting and because of the abundance of evidence it's we should be speculating that is that's it's almost like our duty I think speculation is very healthy uh and and um you know we need to we need to step out of the mainstream point of view that's that's where I think people like me can possibly pay play a useful role so having said that yeah what's your number one candidate for uh an antecedent civilization I mean the classic one would be Atlantis you wrote

a book called America before which connects with this story yeah do you think it is Atlantis are there other pre-existing civilizations I think the name the name Atlantis needs to be taken as standing for something else it needs to be taken the standing for something larger I'm not I'm not claiming or insisting that there was a civilization that was actually called Atlantis by Plato's time it was called Atlantis Plato is the Plato is the earliest surviving reference we have to this Great Lost Civilization of prehistory that he referred to as Atlantis his

Source was an ancestor of his uh he didn't know him personally they were separated by about 200 years but the story had been passed down in the family line and that ancestor was a very famous Greek lawmaker so long um and and we know that Solon made a documented visit to Egypt round about the year 600 BC in our calendar and Solon went to a Temple dedicated to the goddess Neath at sice in the Delta and there the priest showed

showed him certain inscriptions on the walls and he asked them to interpret and they said that the what these inscriptions recounted was a former civilization which had been highly Advanced but which was destroyed that they said in a single Dreadful day and night was swallowed up by the Sea and vanished and the other point which I think is really really important to make and I do make this point in the in the series yeah um is the date the date that Plato gives us uh is right around the

date attached to it which coincides exactly with with what modern science recognizes as a massive Global flooding event yeah and when that's taken into account with the evidence from the from the Ed for building tax I think the Atlantis story becomes a whole lot more credible yeah you've often said that well put you've often said that the the human race um is suffering from Amnesia Mass Amnesia and a mutual friend of ours uh Brian murescue who you sort of presented to the World on Joe Rogan uh wrote a

great book called The immortality key for which I wrote the forward for which you wrote the forward and he talks about not only the human race as suffering for from Amnesia but this is kind of a platonic concept the individual suffering from Amnesia it is concept of anamnesis that the birthing process is kind of a traumatic forgetting process of your primordial Soul yeah and that these elusinian mystery rituals eluses being 13 miles Northwest of Athens you've been to elusive amazing is this

place where the fathers of Western Civilization Plato Socrates if he existed Aristotle all the great names all the great names went and experienced some form of maybe noises like knowledge of their soul yes so do you think well but it's important to add yeah that um and and I first went into this in my 2005 book Supernatural yes which has been recently reissued under a new title of visionary the point is there's no doubt in my mind that eluses was a place

it was a perfect setting for deep psychedelic Journeys every initiate in the early City Industries was given a drink called the kaikon or the kikion and they were given this drink then they went down into this deep dark hallway we don't know exactly what went on in there because the rituals were kept were kept secret but they then had extraordinary life-changing experiences and in many cases many of those great philosophers said that what they lost was their fear of death yes that they had had fear of death before and after this experience

they no longer feel feared death yeah and you know Brian also presents excellent evidence that early Christianity was a psychedelic a religion yeah um and maybe the last supper was a maybe it was a a second maybe it was edible too the idea that Christ's last supper was actually a pagan mystery ritual is not new in fact Martin Luther King wrote a little-known essay called the influence of mystery religions on Christianity positing the Pagan continuity hypothesis

that Christianity wasn't born in a vacuum but Bears a striking resemblance to Pagan polytheistic traditions and rituals that occurred across the ancient world one of the leading Scholars who compares the last supper with prior Pagan rituals is Dennis McDonald a theology professor at Claremont he writes they eating flesh and drinking blood point to the dionysian cult imagery specifically the eating of the Flesh and the blood of the God and the immortality the initiates gain by such

activity he goes on to write that the cult of Dionysus famously involved two related rights speragmos and homophagia the first dismembering was the ripping apart of of living beasts the second eating raw flesh was the placing of the fresh and bleeding meat to the lips which some ancient interpreters took to be a reenactment of the eating of the young Dionysus by the Titans the participants celebrated Dionysus as the one who had survived death and thus was

granted immortality as the Lord of souls but even if you take the canonical description of the last supper at face value and say the Book of John things can get kind of trippy take John 6 5 3 truly truly I say to you unless you eat the Flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you the one who chews My Flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life this sounds very similar to the elusinian mystery rituals Brian murescue

writes about in his book The immortality key and this isn't even a gnostic text like the Gospel of Thomas this is canonical New Testament in religions as let's take particularly the three big monotheistic religions Christianity Judaism and Islam which basically all worship the same deity and the same prophets are recognized these religions are all very very closely interlinked all of them have officials who priests rabbis mullers who interpose

themselves between us and the Divine experience they they tell us what the Divine experience is but we don't have the opportunity to have that experience ourselves and the thing about psychedelics is that they provide a direct experience a direct experience not mediated by some official but an experience that you have yourself and that seems to be what was going on in early Christianity yeah that people were the Where Christ was seen more more as a teacher than than as the Son of God and

what seems to have been going on is that early Christianity was very much a psychedelic religion and and it's really only when the when the Roman Catholic Church emerged and it started oppressing people and the very first people it oppressed were those other Christian sects that had used psychedelics any of um Council of nicaea in 325 which sort of arbitrarily based on political reasons kind of cuts down Christianity into an accepted Canon that in many ways

it discounts some of the more interesting books like the Gospel of Thomas that absolutely that have to do with a single individual's ability to ascend into a more yes Divine Divine State that's right you see the problem is that the the State of Consciousness that we have today that's dominant in our society today is what I call the alert problem-solving State of Consciousness this is the State of Consciousness that our society values so it's interesting when you look at the drugs that are legal in our society that everybody has access to and that are

often glorified alcohol is one of the drugs that our society has embraced well I can understand why because because alcohol does not lead people to ask profound questions it's like a little holiday from the alert problem-solving State of Consciousness but that's all it is and I just want to point out that what the psychedelics do is offer us much more than a break from that oh yes they offer access to a completely different state of consciousness the other thing they do is they break very

blocked and narrow ways of thinking and that's what depression is depression is where you're locked into a state of mind that makes you extremely sad and unhappy and you can't escape from it you know and the pharmaceutical drugs like seroxat and Prozac and things like that are absolutely [ __ ] useless in getting people out of depression I speak from experience because I suffered from depression So eventually what I decided to do was just do a very gradual cut down of the dose and I used a razor blade to slice up the pills I just cut it down day by day over six months until

finally I was clear of that horrible medicine at least I did I experienced it as a horrible medicine perhaps it helps some people but honestly the scientific studies that have been done suggest that placebos are just as effective yeah as as the SSRI antidepressant it recently came out there's no correlation between serotonin deficiency and depression I know it's like okay you're saying this now after 50 years exactly we've been sold a myth we've been sold a lie and if we look at the the world through a very narrow limited perspective then all

we're going to see is narrow limited things the role of psychedelics is providing another lens that allows us to see a wider reality can I offer you a a crazy Theory and you can tell me if I'm nuts okay so in 1973 Francis correct who discovered the double helical structure of DNA wrote a paper about directed what a Nobel Prize won a Nobel Prize uh you know renowned scientist he wrote a a paper on directed Pan spermium actually called life itself he wrote

papers on the book interesting I didn't even know that the book is a tough read that was published in 1989 one okay but it's it's it's it's it's it's fascinating and if I can just jump the gun yeah yeah you probably know what I'm going to ask yeah yeah um the the Crick this is the world's leading expert on on DNA came to the conclusion that DNA could not have evolved on this planet in the time available for it you know the the classic Model is that we have a sort of primeval soup the the early Earth the

Earth forms about 4.5 billion years ago four and a half thousand million years and for the first 600 million years it's too hot to support any life until about 3.9 billion years ago it gets to the stage where it could support very basic life forms and within a hundred million years of that which across a span of billions of years is a tiny amount of time within a hundred million years of that by 3.8 million years ago bacterial life was all

over this planet and crick's view was as a as a leading scientist whose whole life was focused on the study of DNA his life was that DNA could not have emerged accidentally from the Primeval soup on this planet in just a hundred million years it needed much longer to he still bought into the Primeval soup idea but not on this planet yes what he came down to was that there must have been some other planet somewhere else where a primeval soup had existed and there had been enough time

for DNA to emerge from The Accidental bumping together of molecules that's by the way something I'm a bit skeptical of Anywhere But nevertheless that was Quick's point in life itself and then he suggested that you know the universe is very old at least 13 and a half billion years old uh there's time for life to have evolved elsewhere in the universe and he suggested that what happened was that the the first primitive bacteria continued to evolve on that distant planet orbiting another son on the other side

of the universe that life began to evolve and eventually a highly developed civilization emerged on that planet I'm not saying they looked anything like us and by the way I need to emphasize this is Crick this is not me yeah this is the Nobel Prize winner who's saying this yeah that life evolved on that planet highly intelligent sophisticated Advanced life form and then they discovered that they faced certain Doom that there was going to be he suggested a supernova going off in their vicinity which would strip their planet of all life and uh to continue the correct

story he then said well the first thing they would have done was to figure could we get ourselves off the planet could we go colonize another planet but the distances in interstellar space were too great for that to be feasible so they did the next best thing they genetically engineered bacteria they Incorporated the DNA code within those bacteria and then they put the bacteria into cryogenic Chambers in spaceships and fire them off in all directions put some algae and CO2 for food and then yeah you know and we know

that bacteria extremophiles can survive in in extremely dire circumstances and fired them off into the early universe and cut a long story short 3.9 billion years ago one of those spaceships collided with the early Earth Spilled Out its contents of bacteria and there you have it life begins to evolve on this planet and it contains the DNA code that came from another planet and fungal DNA is more similar to human DNA than plants it's fascinating which is pretty important fungi are amazing things which are which which are kind of halfway between the

animal and the Plant World they're most most curious and incredible things so so that was crick's suggestion and I I don't think it's a wild suggestion yeah particularly bearing in mind who it who it comes from God he stuck his neck out in proposing something like that yeah yeah you know because there's huge um Lobby behind behind the natural selection and the and the darwinian model sure he wasn't stepping away from the darwinian yeah but he was trying to solve an anomaly he couldn't understand how DNA could have formed accidentally in just 100 million years well it almost

feels like human evolution there are gaps in human evolution and evolutionary biologists you know like to say they have these placeholder words like punctuated equilibria yes but if you really look at you know I think like the stone date theory for example the doubling and cranial size between two million years ago and 300 000 years ago and then the emergence of culture yeah um which which you and Brian were rescue talk about a possible explanation for the emergence of culture which I want to get your take on is a lot of people say specialization

and culture inevitably comes from having more time because you have agriculture that's right you have talked about sort of a transfer of Technology maybe from an antecedent civilization what if you're you're planting wheat barley and Rye those were like the original sort of things in the Agricultural Revolution ergot grows on those things naturally yeah and so what if there is you know this it's almost like the ergot is like a kind of a oh God yeah okay summer goats are are deadly toxic

okay um but it happens that the one that grows on on barley is not toxic and is soluble in water so it can be turned into it interesting so what so what if the consumption of that is what spurred all these ideas that have sort of created a lot of modern civilization well that's exactly the case that I made in in my 2005 book uh Supernatural and it's exactly the case that Brian's taken much further in his what 2021 book uh the immortality key that that it was and

and somebody else we have to recognize Carl rocker no it's the late great Terence McKenna oh yeah of course Terence McKenna was a key thinker are in this field yeah but I would recommend to anybody who's listening his book food of the Gods yeah was one of the first books to suggest that this Quantum Leap Forward in human behavior and in human consciousness was entirely the result of experimenting with psychedelics yeah and he and McKenna thinks that he talks about a mushroom trip where the mushrooms say to him within my memory

exist the blueprints for hyper light drives yeah I believe God left certain drugs growing naturally Upon Our Planet to help speed up and facilitate our evolution if you think about it if you have an alien civilization would you present yourself as a hominid Cree like a foreign Invader a dominant creature or where you subtly merge with the higher hominid creature affect their thinking yeah and hitchhike your way absolutely to the next planet I think you go for subtle subtle merging yeah and

um and this is where again Shamanism has much to teach western western science because shamans need to be taken seriously when they say that the plants and the fungi are teachers and that's very mysterious thing anybody who's had deep psychedelic Journey will know that they get teachings in that journey and those teachings generally refer to their own lives on their own behavior and how they behave it's very odd that a mushroom or or a mixture of two plants from the Amazon should cause us to

evaluate our behavior and should teach us that maybe we've been doing stuff wrong that we need to adjust and put put right in the future yeah I myself have had a have had a a creative um gift from from psychedelics and that back in 2006 drinking Ayahuasca in Brazil over a series of five sessions I was given literally given the entire plot of a novel I'd never written a novel before that's crazy uh but I was

given that the entire plot of a novel which I eventually and at the end of those sessions I I got a very clear message from The Entity that I call Mother Ayahuasca and frankly I don't care if scientists roll their eyes if you're going to roll your eyes at the notion of mother Ayahuasca go drink some Ayahuasca and then see if you're going to roll your own right um I was I was given the gift of a story and I was given a very strong instruction write it did you and I did and I wrote it it's called entangled and and it and it features um a young woman 24 000 years ago and a young woman today

who are entangled across time uh in in a battle of good against evil and there's a demonic force that is that is traveling through time and that is twisting Humanity out of our true Mission and their job is to stop that Force both in the Stone Age and today do you consider yourself Gnostic or what what would your because Garden variety religious I'm not no I don't I and in many ways you're anti yeah I'm anti I'm not a Christian I don't I don't belong to any religion

if I were to put myself in a category I would say Gnostic is the right category I wrote a book um with Robert baval back in the 90s called Talisman and of course the gnostics were amongst the the first people to be burnt at the stake when the Roman Catholic Church as I put it pulled on the jack book boot of the robin State and began to persecute its competitors and you talk about almost in that book A through line of gnosticism in the form

of these sort of small kabbalistic I believe it's continued I believe it's continued the the the message has not just evaporated but it's gone underground and it's been and it's been transmitted through various lines and in some cases those lines may not even know what they're transmitting anymore that's interesting yeah so it's like in the past you'd have the Templars the rosicrucians or the Freemasons and now there's like a hermetic transfer without a real or exoteric organization even existing yes it can it can be passed

several times in Masonic lodges through a mutual friend I know an archaeologist who actually teaches at the University of Exeter in the UK who's been involved in lidar work in Colombia and they have um they have identified what their certain is an enormous pyramid wow in the middle of the Amazon rainforest wow and the next step is to put a team out there and actually see it on the ground well that's cool are you going to go and check it out you bet I'm going to go if I get if I get a chance I would go with you yeah just let me know yeah absolutely and you wrote a book called

the sign and the seal I did about the Ark of the Covenant so and that was my my first Venture into what shall we call historical mystery and in Ethiopia I came across this really quite by chance um I came I found myself in the city of Aksum in Tigre in Northern Ethiopia and there were some strange processions going on and wonderful music and dancing and rituals being performed and I asked what's this all about and they said well we have the we have the Ark of the

Covenant here um and these these um uh ceremonials are in honor of the of the Ark of the Covenant and you've got the Ark of the Covenant here I've Just Seen Raiders of the Lost Ark you know you've got the Ark of the Covenant here where and they and they said well it's in that enclosure and there's a huge religious enclosure in the heart of Aksum which contains a 16th century church church of Saint Mary of Zion and beside it a little chapel and it's in that Chapel that the Ethiopians claim the ark is kept and

this is not a minor issue for Ethiopians this is a very major issue for them it's fundamental to Ethiopian culture it's something that a lot of people don't understand and it's kind of odd because the Ark of the Covenant is a pre-christian relic and Ethiopia is largely a Christian country why is it Ethiopian Christianity which is very Old Testament in its form very unnew Testament in its form why is it but still calling it self-christianity why is it venerating a pre-christian non-Christian Relic that belongs to Old

Testament times and so I began to do my own investigation and my own investigation included a lot of time spent with the indigenous Ethiopian Jews this is something again that's not not widely known but there there has been lost track going back into remote prehistory a judaic community in Ethiopia and in Ethiopia there they're known as the falashes they refer to themselves as the beta Israel the house of Israel and they they say

that their ancestors brought the Ark of the Covenant to Ethiopia and it happened in this way that first of all their ancestors lived on an island in the Nile and they they lived there for some hundreds of years well that's the first thing I checked was there ever a Jewish community on an island in the Nile yes there was when the island of elephantine opposite the modern city of Aswan in Upper Egypt around 650 BC the general story is that the ark was uh stolen by

the Babylonians about 60 years later in 587 BC but the Babylonians have no records of the Ark of the Covenant they were ferocious bureaucrats and they kept detailed records of everything they stole from the Temple of Jerusalem didn't include the ark the ark logically was gone before the Babylonians ever got there and and suddenly the philosus story of their ancestors living on an island in the Nile starts to make sense and then I go in further into it and I discovered that around 400 BC there was conflict between that Jewish community and the Egyptians

the conflict was because the Ireland development team was dedicated to the god known and the Egyptian god known is a ram-headed deity and the Jewish community on that island were sacrificing Rams and this and again this is historically established they were thrown out they were they were driven out there's no evidence that they were massacred they were just driven out of that island and that's where it connects with the philasia stories that their ancestors were driven out of that island and they Then followed the Nile River system they did not go north through a

hostile Egypt they went South and they thought the Nile of course divides into two branches the Blue Nile and the White Nile the White Nile rises in Uganda the Blue Nile rises in Lake Tana in Ethiopia and Lake Tana in Ethiopia is the center the absolute center of the area in which the Ethiopian Jews lived wow um and and suddenly it all began to make sense interesting you know and and and and and and and could be stood up as a reasonable I never saw the object that is called The Ark itself and maybe

um that's just as well because the Guardians of the art get sick and die very very rapidly is it yeah you said that he said that people come out with burns on their face they typically get cataracts they get blinded by cataracts which is a which is something that happens with radiation damage but your your Narrative of the Ark of the Covenant would preclude the Templars guarding it because they were later well no it wouldn't actually okay um in this sense that I came across a a great Scottish traveler called James Bruce of Canad okay and James Bruce wrote a book

in the 1780s or 90s called travels to discover the source of the Nile and in which he claimed to have discovered the source of the Blue Nile in or near Lake Tana what's puzzling about that is he already knew of a Portuguese priest who'd put that together 60 years before and James Bruce had a powerful interest in the Ark of the Covenant and was present in Aksum during the ceremony of timkat when replicas of the Ark of the Covenant are brought out and I began to

get very interested in his story and I became convinced although I couldn't prove it that he had been a Freemason and that he was his free Masonic interest that had taken him to Ethiopia let's not forget that James Bruce brought something back from Ethiopia he brought back the Book of Enoch wow we would not have the Book of Enoch and it hadn't been for that Scottish traveler getting a copy of it written in the Ethiopian sacred language and and having it then translated ancient alien abduction story if I've ever heard the Book of Enoch was a lost book until but

it had been preserved in Ethiopia and James Ruiz found it and and brought it back brought it back to Europe um but uh I I thought what it could have motivated him and could he have been a Freemason and I began to look into this and I couldn't find evidence for it I went to his his grave which is in a little churchyard in Scotland near Falco and I found that the grave was in a state of disrepair but the Obelisk that had stood over the grave was lying on its side in the car park and it was

clear that something was going on so I went to The Keeper of the church and I asked him about this and he said oh yes we're restoring the grave of James Bruce right now and the Obelisk will be will be re-erected there and and I I said who's who's funding this and he said well it's the Earl of Elgin oh how interesting um those were the days when you could pick up the phone and call an Earl and I I did that um in the probably 1990 when we're researching the sign and the seal I I I I called the broomhill estate where the

heir of Elgin lives and he answered the and I said look I'm this may seem very odd to you but I'm I'm a journalist and I'm investigating the story of James Bruce of Canad and I understand you have an interest in him can I come and talk to you about him and he said grottley I'll give you half an hour he gave me five hours and my wife Santa and I went to his place his estate and we sat down and talked to him and at the end of it rather nervously I said look I've been working on this theory that James Bruce was a Freemason but I can't

stand it up I can't prove it he said my dear boy of course he was a freebies and he gave me the lodge the kill winning lodge number two in Edinburgh that James Bruce was a member of and more than that he was a speculative Freemason who was interested in the esoteric side of Freemasonry and so his journey to Ethiopia I think was very strongly connected to the Ark of the Covenant now we come to the Templars yeah uh be the the and the Templar connection with Freemasonry and the fact that the

the speculation that I put in the sign and the seal that Templars had gone to Ethiopia in search of the Ark of the Covenant uh there was a time when an Ethiopian Prince whose name was lalibella was an exile in Jerusalem and that was during the Crusades when the Templars held the whole Temple mount the the Al-Aqsa mosque was their palace the the template the Temple Mount was there at exactly the time that an Ethiopian Prince exiled was present in Jerusalem I speculated that he tipped the Templars

off that the Ark of the Covenant was in Ethiopia and weirdly lalibella then went back to Ethiopia with a strange force of people who installed him on the throne of Ethiopia who sound like foreigners not Ethiopians and then he created these incredible churches which are the rockhoun churches of lalibella one of which has a Templar cross painted on its ceiling and an image of the Al-Aqsa mosque with a cross on top of it which only happened when the Templars were using it as their palace so I began to

see a possible connection here the the the Templars did have a long-term interest in this object that they had learned some intelligence about it during their stay in Jerusalem and that they'd followed that intelligence to Ethiopia and put lalibala back on the throne and been involved in the construction of his amazing churches all speculation of course that's fascinating interesting speculation but you've made a lot of pretty compelling connections

megalithic architecture it's almost so much that it's not even anomalous anymore that you show in your docu-series and you've speculated that these things aren't built using kind of modern engineering techniques they're used they're built used using kind of ancient engineering techniques to take techniques and technologies that we don't know about that we haven't we haven't used now it's very important to emphasize that this is speculation absolutely not a fact yes I think I suggest I speculate that we have allowed

innate some innate human abilities to fall into disuse to lapse and not only that but we've actually we've actually come to to despise those who think that such abilities exist yeah so it's almost the same as saying you're in The Lunatic Fringe if you say that you believe that telepathy and telekinesis or telepathy we're harder to control if you have those abilities yeah and and and and they ignore work for example somebody you should talk to is perhaps you have is Dr Rupert sheldrake oh yeah huge fan

he's incredibly important out of the box thinker and and mainstream scientists he's a highly qualified scientist and all of his protocols for the morphic field experiments are very rigorous they're very rigorous he's done very detailed work on on for example telephone telepathy how is it that so many of us hear the phone ring and we know already or we're really thinking about the individual who calls us a universal Human Experience exactly and that's every people discount their own phenomenology yeah for a Dogma

which is like if you were to pull nine people out of ten on the street and they say have you experienced it everybody's like yeah I've had that experience but that's not real exactly because why can't because the high Priests of science have told us that we mustn't believe it exactly um whereas in fact Rupert's Rupert's work shows that these abilities do exist that human beings do have the ability for telepathy I don't know if he's done work on telekinesis where where objects are moved directly with the power of the Mind rather than using a machine or a lever to to move them but that it's kind

of telekinesis that I'm suggesting to say that the ancient Egyptians moved 200 ton blocks of stone on wet sand at ground level that's fine but to move 200 ton blocks of stone 350 feet in the air right and to build them into a chamber in the heart of the Great Pyramid that is another matter so I Think It's Perfectly Natural and reasonable to speculate them they may have been using some ability

or some technology that we have not embraced and that we do not understand and that if we had not become so dependent on mechanical advantage and leverage we might have been doing things a very different way there are a number of ancient Egyptian Traditions that speak of the priests levitating these large blocks and this is accompanied by chanting music as played and it plays a part in the lifting up of the blocks a

number of traditions about this which I think perhaps deserve to be taken more seriously than they have been not necessarily Fantastical Tales having climbed the Great Pyramid five times seen the Majesty of its construction and the intricacy of its construction I'm persuaded that we're dealing with something we don't fully understand and be better to admit that rather than come up with these pure speculations that are the work of each of egyptologists just as I'm speculating that it was telepathy or telekinesis but the frame should be

speculation versus speculation that yeah there should be speculation versus speculation rather saying this is established fact because it isn't it isn't established fact and and you know then we have to come to grips with other aspects of the Great Pyramid which I often talk about which are also neglected by egyptology which is it's extremely precise alignment to true that on a six million tonne Monument with a 13 acre footprint is no easy task to and it involves astronomy it involves precise astronomy the figure is isn't it mapped Orion's Belt in some way well

that's that's another that's another very important issue and this is the work of my great friend and colleague Robert bavar uh who came up with the Orion correlation theory in 1994 in his book The Orion mystery he was the first person to notice wow that the three great pyramids on the Giza Plateau have a stunningly similar pattern yeah to the three stars of the belt of Orion and Orion is not just any constellation in the ancient Egyptian system Orion is the god of Cyrus in the sky that's that's the the celestial figure of Orion of of

the constellation that we call Orion was the celestial figure of the god Osiris in the sky to the ancient Egyptians so not only do they do they model the belt stars of that constellation but that constellation is also an important one to the ancient Egyptians so there's been so many bogus attempts to to discredit Robert's important work on their own and the saw human soul is supposed to come through Iran's but I was really importantly yes yes the right and that's and that's a curious worldwide tradition because you find that in America too in the man Builder cultures in America

there wasn't belief that the soul enters the afterlife Journey Through the constellation of Orion the ancient Egyptians believed in a in a whole afterlife realm through which we through which we travel and the constellation of Orion plays a plays a key role in that they called this they called this realm the Duart and as we die in this world we enter that world and we make a journey and we will be and it's a hazardous journey and we need to be prepared for it in advance that's one of the reasons I think psychedelics were used in

ancient Egypt as part of preparation for this after death Journey then you realize that it's not just the Giza Pyramids the the the the um the pyramids of dashur The Red Pyramid and the bent pyramid are also part of the diagram moving up into the constellation of Taurus there's it looks like a whole Stellar landscape was mapped on the ground at Giza it's a it's a much bigger picture and and again it's unfortunate that egyptology hasn't been willing to engage with this he just wants to write it off I think it has a lot to do with

egyptologists being entirely ignorant in astronomy right you know yeah it's crazy also analogous to all of the work that you do and and you document a lot of this as well around human history being so much older is this precocious knowledge of the stars that these ancient civilizations seems to have like like you look at Sumerian artifacts that show a heliocentric Universe thousands of years astronomers the the universe was and and then you have to ask yourself that knowledge system that

manifests in the Sumerians did not begin with the Sumerians that's something that goes back much further it's a it's a it's a universal in my view it's a universal human Legacy from A Lost Civilization of prehistoric Antiquity passed around passed all around around the world and maybe they came from the stars or something because why would I don't need to go there um and and I've I've never found that's like an Eric Von Danica yeah I don't I didn't I don't need to go where Eric goes yeah yeah um I think Eric I

know Eric and I think he did I think he did a good job of alerting people to mystery in the past but I personally think that the answer he came up with that it was Ancient Aliens in high-tech spacecraft who came here I I think that's an unnecessary argument in order to explain the anomalies that we confront and I think are much more elegant and much simpler explanation is a lost human civilization of the Ice Age which was destroyed in in the global cataclysm of the younger dryas which had survivors and those survivors found ways

to pass their knowledge down to the Future and that's the period that the the period that we call the younger dryers is the period that the ancient Egyptians call Zep Tepe the first time they call it the first time and that's that's where they say all their knowledge came from so I don't seek to divorce the ancient Egyptians from the Great Pyramid of Giza the ancient Egyptians were definitely involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza but I think the Great Pyramid of Giza sits on top of something much older and part of it is the Subterranean

chamber 100 feet vertically beneath the base of the Great Pyramid I think that's the original sacred site on the Giza plateau and so in the Sphinx according to people like you and Robert shark has uh water damage on the nose monuments of the Giza Plateau are multiple and very complex and in the case of the pyramids I do accept that the ancient Egyptians were directly involved in completing The Monuments as we see them now but they were building on a more ancient structures but there

are there are structures on the Giza plateau and the Great Sphinx is one of them which are clearly much older the Robert shocks work let's put that in its proper context I I I do want to pay tribute to Robert Shaw because one of the few academics who's who's been willing to stick his neck out and and suggest that the Great Sphinx that any enigmatic Monument from the ancient world is more than 12 000 years old not four and a half thousand years old as egyptologists tell us the the evidence for that was initially

proposed by um John Anthony West who was the first to draw wide-scale public attention to the possibility that the Sphinx bore evidence of water weathering and Robert shock then came we John West brought Robert shock to the Giza Plateau as a geologist and Robert shop took a very detailed and careful look at it and concluded that what we're looking at on the Sphinx and is particularly evidence on the trench surrounding the Sphinx is precipitation-induced weathering weathering that was caused by heavy heavy rainfall not a flood that washed

over the Giza Plateau but extremely heavy rainfall and the world's climate has changed dramatically several times and that dramatic climate change that was the younger dryas between 12 800 and 11 600 years ago which brought freezing temperatures further north resulted in heavy rainfall in the Sahara Desert and over Egypt and that's the period when the geology says that the Great Sphinx was made and like the pyramids the ancient Egyptians cannot be divorced

from the Great Sphinx the very fact that the Sphinx has the head of a pharaoh tells us that the ancient Egyptians were involved in it but what we think and when I say we the late great John Anthony West Robert shot myself and a number of others think is that the Great Sphinx Mano safe zadeh is another man who's doing really important work on this and he's he's fluent in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as well um the argument is that the Great Sphinx was originally a lion totally a lion not just a lion body with a human head but a

lion body with a lion head so the fair the Pharaoh aspect yes originally it was the prehistoric Sphinx was a lion um and and then the lion head uh became heavily eroded and damaged us thousands of years past and in the time of the Pharaohs it was transformed it was cut down and remade into the human head that we see on it today wearing the classic Nemesis headdress of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh but the fact that that nemis

headdress and the head of effect of some Pharaoh not necessarily Cafe is found on the Great Sphinx speaks to later remodeling by the ancient Egyptians it doesn't deal at all with the issue of the precipitation-induced weathering that says that the whole site is actually much older so just as the ancient Egyptians were involved in completing the Great Pyramids which I do not dispute they were also involved in the Great Sphinx but they found it already present on the Giza Plateau do you believe not just in Atlantis but in

civilizational Cycles so in many esoteric Traditions you know there would be different sort of root races or civilizational Cycles like the hyperboreans the lemurians the atlanteans do I've not needed to go that um I I think I've had enough of a challenge to to deal with making the case for one Lost Civilization without seeking to make the case for multiple civilizations but I'm not writing that off as a possible it might require you looking at the Ark of the Covenant

bridge too far which I've I've focused all my efforts on trying to make this case and to make it in a you know in a way that makes sense to people and that is supported by evidence it's clear that Civilization is cyclical that things come and go great civilizations rise and fall it was only in the 1920s or the 1930s that we became aware of the existence of such a thing as the Indus Valley Civilization which is along the banks of the Indus River in Pakistan behind jadero and harappa were unknown

sites in in the 1920s it was only an accidental Discovery uh Railway workers building a railway line that actually led to that and then the dating of it 5 000 plus years old this extraordinarily sophisticated civilization that existed along the Indus River was totally unknown it was A Lost Civilization we still haven't learned to read its language although they had a written language so civilizations can get lost civilizations can rise and can fall it happened again and again and I'm really only saying that that maybe happened

much earlier from a time that we've forgotten and in Supernatural you talk about shifting a little to aliens because we talk about that a lot on this show yeah you talk about uh modern abductions and UFO sightings kind of paddled now we're getting onto a subject I'm I'm happy to talk about well let's do it because because because I I think that the physical aliens coming here in spaceships yes or flying sources from from other planets

um is fundamentally it's it's a it's a materialist proposition it's it's about tech and about material things like the Elon Musk worldview it's not yeah it's a Consciousness world it's not it's not a Consciousness world view um what was what was striking to me was a conversation I had with the late Pablo amaringo an Amazonian Shaman who did who painted his Visions after he'd been on

Oscar Journey he would sit down and pay he created thousands of beautiful beautiful paintings and in many of those paintings there are flying saucers so I said to Pablo is this um I basically said is this Ancient Aliens you're talking about are there are those spaceships that have come from other planets and he said no those are vehicles for entering and leaving the spirit world and when a shaman talks about the spirit world that Shaman is talking about what Quantum physicists

would call a parallel parallel Dimension or a parallel realm and I'm not denying that there are physical elements to the UFO experience there certainly are um they do show up in radar traces here here and there there are physical elements to it but exactly what they are is not yet clear yeah are they are they as Pablo said vehicles for entering and leaving let's put it in modern language and parallel realm and parallel universe rather than vehicles to take us across

those fairies and elves would do surgery on people they would abduct people they would have sex with people they would produce hybrid babies and then go into spirits and the whole issued of shamans and what Spirits are about and realize that this is going back now thousands of years and that these and that these experiences are documented in cave art all around the world and you'll find again that the phenomenology is the same shamans are always having sex with spirits and and often have babies in

another realm might explain the Immaculate Conception well yeah and and um you know this is I I often tell it is a joke but but it's true I know of a shaman in the Amazon whose wife left him because of his wife in the spirit world uh wow he had not only a wife over there had kids over there too oh my God we have the same phenomenology in encounters with Spirits by shamans documented in cave art going back tens of thousands of years we have that phenomenology and encounters with

fairies and elves in the Middle Ages and we have the identical phenomenology in encounters with aliens today and I think it's obvious we're looking at the same experience Through Time construed through different cultural lenses do you think Gnostic or kabbalistic Traditions have attempted to make deliberate contacts so I think any tradition that makes use of psychedelics whether they want to or not are going to make deliberate contact I I mean I had on one of my early

Ayahuasca Journeys in the in the Amazon I had an a typical Alien Encounter and I was sitting on a bench outside the Shaman's Hut feeling pretty ill because that's what Ayahuasca does with you and I was having these wild visions and and then I saw not one but several flying saucers up above me and I saw this characteristic alien face you know this sort of heart-shaped large dark

um materialize up there and I got the very strong message that they were going to take me away we're going to take you and that's where I was a coward because I was seeing these things with my eyes closed and you can often stop Visions by opening your eyes and I opened my eyes I shouted no I would think someone like you would want to go well I've regretted it ever since because what I should have done was keep my eyes shut and say yes take me yeah but I was scared shitless I was

literally scared stiff and and and it shook me to my core actually this thing this thing I've mentioned this a number of times recently but there's a really important project going on at Imperial College in London and this is the first time that psychedelics have been trialled with human volunteers not to see what the therapeutic benefit is but to understand the phenomenology and DMT is particularly effective about in bringing about entity encounters uh

Terence McKenna's machine elves for for example what's happening at Imperial is that they've found a way to keep people in the DMT state for an hour normally it's 10 to 15. yes an intravenous trip and and they keep them in a steady DMT state for an and while doing that they put them in MRI scanners and they interview them they talk to them to the to the extent that they're able to talk and quite often with a full-blown DMT Journey you're not able to talk until afterwards

but but because they're in the journey for an hour they're able to process the experience much much more effectively than if you're in the journey for 10 minutes and this is really serious work that's being done at Imperial College it's being done with large numbers of volunteers this is Christopher Timmerman Chris Timberman is the is the head of the project yeah yeah he's he's the guy who who runs that project and many others many other scientists working with him on that project and they will sit with the volunteers through the whole hour and talk to them and as

particularly what they want to know is about entities what entities are you encountering now some might say what's the use of this but I say it's incredibly useful because what they're doing is they're exploring the DMT realm uh and and and these are like early explorers from from our time you know who went out and the Wilderness and came back with stories about what they'd seen these volunteers are going out into the DMT Wilderness and coming back with stories of what they've seen and the stories are remarkably consistent that they're encountering the same entities in the same setting and normally when

large number of people agree on the same experience we're inclined to Define that experience as real and it's only the prejudices of our civilization that lead us to dismiss it as unreal or as mere hallucinations there's something about it's nothing mere yeah about these experiences there's something about DMT that's fundamental to the human story in a way that we we don't understand like it's you talk about it being the tree of life or the the acacia tree being the Tree of Life in Egypt and then in Freemasonry The Acacia Leaf is is a

big is a kind of place prominent it plays a role in Freemasonry and um there's there's no doubt about it the wood out of which the Ark of the Covenant was made was acacia wood right yeah and then and then there's something you know I think both of our World Views might be more akin to sort of pan psychic pan psychism or something than you know materialist reductionism the separation of mind and matter and DMT exists in all organic material so it's it's something no matter how prejudiced you may be against DMT you cannot get rid of it yes it's everywhere you can

it's a natural brain we we make it yeah the human body makes the end too yes and it makes it at very interesting times as well it makes it uh at around the time in the womb when your identity sort of forms in maybe an amnesis occurs and you forget your sort of past self uh it occurs during REM sleep and then and then when you die near death yeah um and and normally it's in sub-psychedelic quantities but maybe maybe many of the natural Visionaries

that we've had who've not who've not taken the Psychedelic they just have visions people like Joan of Arc yeah for example well we now know the brain we thought that the brain couldn't produce it it was produced in the lungs now we know that the brain can endogen endogenously secrete the Mt and DMT receptors are all over the brain chemo Mortgage in at Michigan yeah it's pretty amazing it's pretty amazing yeah and you know the the the the human body and the brain is is it doesn't waste resources there's a reason that that is there there's a reason that those receptors

are there clearly DMT is very important for us and and um alongside other psychedelics I mean in many ways psilocybin is rightly referred to as orally active DMT inside a cybin molecule in the DMT molecule are very closely related um these that it's it's more broadly the tryptamine family that that induced these extraordinary experiences in us or allow us to have experiences that in a an alert problem-solving State of

Consciousness we will never never never I don't think Consciousness requires physical bodies I think Consciousness is fundamental to the universe I think it's a fundamental force in the universe like gravity Consciousness is is there but Consciousness outside a physical body is is obviously going to be limited in the range of things that it can experience once you immerse Consciousness in a physical body then that physical body and the person who's inside that physical body is going to face the challenges of physical life we're going

to have to make choices all the way through our lives some of those choices may be very hurtful to others some of them may be helpful nurturing Positive Choices we are living in a theater of experience we have we have the chance to learn and to grow and to develop in physical bodies but we cannot be reduced to our physical bodies Consciousness cannot be reduced to the brain rather it rather it manifests through the brain yeah in my view yeah or the physical exactly the physical body is a filter or a reduction on a reducing bar on exactly

on a default state of Greater knowledge and understanding and that's why mystery rituals you're temporarily killing that collapsing function yes so that you kind of glitch into this greater knowledge into this wider this wider reality which we are all part of but but in order to survive in this Physical Realm um we tend to get very focused on this Physical Realm and that's not a bad thing I often say and I'll say it again now that that if I get into an airplane I would like the pilot to be in an alert

problem-solving State of Consciousness I do not not want my pilot visiting parallel Realms while he's flying me from A to B once he gets off the plane he can do all the DMT he wants but while he's flying me the alert problem-solving State of Consciousness is very useful for certain functions yes and we should not dismiss it it's part of us but it's not the only it's not all we are are you darwinian or are you do you think so look there's more to the story I think there's much more to the story I think so too I think there's vastly more to the story however I would not be I would never be a person

who denies that Evolution takes place there is such a thing as Evolution it would be absurd to suggest that there is um we live on a hazardous Planet there are all sorts of issues that can bring particular life forms to an end or nearly to an end the Clear Point is the extinction of the dinosaurs 66 million years ago nobody disputes now that that was done by a comet or an asteroid the chicks group crater in in the Yucatan deep now beneath the earth and the sea is the evidence for that and and and

right and they spent 10 years destroying the idea of Lewis and Walter Alvarez until they found the crater the crater was The Smoking Gun so I think that it would be observed to say that there's no such thing as Evolution because we've got to be able life the whole thing of Life the whole project of life has got to render itself very hard to wipe out and evolution is one of the ways that it renders itself very hard to wipe out but is evolution the whole story no this survival of the fittest the whole story definitely not Evolution

wants to see human consciousness as a byproduct of survival of the fittest that we needed these big brains to thrive in the jungle of competition and as an accidental byproduct of that we got Consciousness I don't think it's an accidental byproduct of that I think it's the I think it's the focus of I think it's what evolution is all about while I don't wish to dismiss Evolution I do want to say that we're only getting a tiny fraction story there maybe is a teleology that's a

little more preordained than we think too yes Evolution yes like a guy like Henry bergson you know in Creative Evolution would write that there's there's a there's more of a clear end point than we than we realize and I suspect that's true I think so I think I think that under the lair that's been identified by science the layer of darwinian evolution hidden beneath that is a whole other layer that's going on which is directed and we are we are seeing a project working out and evolution is the way is one of the means

one of the tools that is used by that project and you brought up Rupert sheldrake that's definitely a gap in evolution where yes if it you know a thousand people do a crossword puzzle and you do that tomorrow and then you do a control group crossword puzzle that no one's done you're more likely to complete the the one that a thousand people have done there's some sort of collective yes we're part of some sort of collective intelligence that that we are connected Perhaps telepathically Perhaps in some other way with all of the rest of the human race and it's why it's so absurd now that we live on this

helpful anymore to have these tribal mindsets where you know we're better than you and because we're different from you we're going to kill you right this is just nonsense are we going to take your stuff by the way as well this is a sign of a species that has a lot of Consciousness Evolution still to go through yeah well maybe you and Randall Carlson need to start a school or

of people and it's amazing to see the docu series it's always an honor to talk to you I I really admire you and you have to promise to let me to tag along at one of your excursions Absolutely I'll do whatever you need absolutely we'll make it happen Jesse we'll definitely make it happen appreciate it great to talk to you likewise thank you