Graham Hancock: The Great Pyramid Is a “Stargate” for Consciousness!

were entrusted with preserving information from what they call the first time and passing it down to future That represents such a precocious advanced astronomical knowledge that's macro it's cosmic scale knowledge Yeah. that we just don't have today. It's not just life after death. It's this link to the Milky Way. It's this through the what is called it it's strangely it's called the underworld but it's also in the sky.

Hancock. I'm so honored to be with you. I'm always honored to be with you. Thank you. The feeling is mutual. Ah, well, thank you. And it's been 2 years since we last sat down. I feel like your career has hit a new apex over these last 2 years despite the haters. Yeah. Uh, you've become a a staple on Joe Rogan. You did an amazing debate with uh Flint Dibble which uh I I feel like not only did you win kind of Socratically but you won because he wasn't even armed with the correct facts, I think.

My My objective was not to win and and I I'm not sure I did win that debate. Uh, I think I I think I was up against um a very a very intelligent individual who was well prepared. Um, I I I'm more interested in the truth um and getting the truth across rather than winning debating points. Right, that. I I I appeared with subsequent research to be to be up against an opponent who was primarily interested in winning debating points. And whose and whose argument is um constantly praising himself for his for

his win. Um but I think I think that uh debate where I definitely wasn't at my best. I think I think that debate uh has helped to show the general public uh how archaeology functions when it deals with people with alternative points of view. Yeah. And that and that function seems to be to win at all costs. Archaeology must win. Uh or that's the other thing that that my debating partner in that debate says he he constantly keeps repeating he's destroyed Graham. Actually, I don't feel destroyed. Um and

I think it was I think it was a good thing to do. Well, I think your truth seeking has reached a new apex as far as it's resonance just among the broader public. I mean, you have a new season of Ancient Apocalypse now out on Netflix. There's numerology, there's mathematics, there's astronomy. It's absolutely fantastic. You have cameos from people like Keanu Reeves. It's kind of getting bigger and bigger and growing into this groundswell that no kind of you know, expert in some citadel sitting on a perch saying that they have the proper credentials can really stop at this point. So, I hope you are aware of

it it it it's it's hopefully moved beyond the point where I can just be canceled. Which is which is which is what uh some of my opponents in archaeology definitely would like to see. You're uncancelable. Well, I think uh you know, it's like a mystery ritual. You have to die before you die to not die. And maybe you have to be mini canceled to ultimately not get canceled or something. And so, you've been you've gotten people have tried to get at you death by a thousand cuts, but now you're

But uh it's it's fantastic to be with you. And I I I as I always try to do it per our you know, two-year tradition, I think you cover so much ground on some of the other podcasts when it comes to kind of just some of the basic claims. Yeah. I want to get more into this kind of the kind of crazy speculative stuff if you're willing to go there. go crazy. But first, I want to ask you, what was Graham Hancock doing in his 20s and 30s because I sort of realized through Ancient Apocalypse, you're like, "I've been doing this for 40 years." I know you're in your 70s now. Yeah. What

were you doing before kind of discovering the ancient world? Yeah, well, uh if we go back to my to my school days, well, let's say let's go back even further. Uh my my my my childhood. Um I I was born in Edinburgh in Scotland. Um at the age of four, my mom and dad moved to South India to the state of Tamil Uh and my dad was a staunch Christian. Um I am not. I I do not embrace any

monotheistic faith or any faith, actually, but he was working as a surgeon uh in a place called the Christian um I'm trying to remember the name of it now. The Christian Medical College in in Vellore in South India. So, I had 4 years of my childhood in South India. And then uh came back, lived in the UK, back to the UK, lived in Northern Ireland in the city of Belfast for 4 years, then moved to the north of From the moment we came back from India,

I that's when I started realizing that I was an outsider, that I wasn't I wasn't whate- whatever the center of thing is, I wasn't in it. I was out on the edges looking in, and I did feel very alienated. I didn't feel that I belonged, and that feeling of of not being uh belonging to to the mainstream was was reinforced when I was sent to a boarding school in the in the north of England. Uh and I just couldn't relate to their way of teaching and I couldn't

I couldn't I just didn't get it. The this sort of forcing forcing to learn a particular doctrine, a particular dogma. Being forced to kneel down in chapel which I refused to do. That was one of my my first acts of rebellion. All of these things I I I I just couldn't get and and the school couldn't get me. So although I struggled through, I was basically regarded by the teachers as as quite stupid actually. They just they just couldn't see that they wrote reports saying that I had no future, that I was a dreamer,

that I was going nowhere. It was very discouraging experience actually. It was only when I went to just scraped into university that I suddenly found myself in an environment of free thinkers. And and there I and there I clicked and there I ended up getting the best degree that is possible to get at a at a British university. But then I had a breakthrough when I met my first wife who was from Somalia but living in England at that time. She wanted to go back and live in Somalia again

and I thought that was a wonderful idea but how do we fund this? And I managed to get a because of my good degree, I managed to get a a scholarship from a thing called the Leverhulme Foundation funded me to spend a year in Somalia. Very very very minimal funding. the kind of amount that will just allow you to just get by. And when I came when we came back from Somalia in 1970 Yeah, it was 1975 to 1976 I was there. When we came back in

I had some I had some expertise at least in the Horn of Africa in East Africa and I was able to gradually build up freelance journalism assignments. And and that was that was primarily what I did in the 1970s. I was desperate to get the opportunity to go back and live in Africa again. And I managed to get a deal with the economist to be their East Africa correspondent based out of Nairobi and traveling quite widely in East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia. You were just covering culture generally? Was it necessarily I was covering covering current affairs.

It was current affairs journalism. I I It was not a It was not a big honorable position. I was their East Africa correspondent. Yeah. But I was paid, you know, 50 UK pounds a month as a as a retainer. And then you get paid Then you get paid for every word you write. Typically an economist story is 300 words in length. So, you don't get paid that much. But it opened doors for me and it opened the door of Ethiopia to me and I got to know Ethiopia very very well. And that in turn opened the door to the

investigation of the possibility of a of a lost civilization. So, it was a It was a series of steps that that led me down the path that I now still find myself on. Was was the thing in Ethiopia that opened you up the possibility of them holding the Ark of the Covenant? Yes, that was that That's right. I I think I've always had a nose for a good story, whether it's current affairs or or ancient history. And while in Ethiopia on current affairs I kept coming across their tradition to

that they were the true last resting place of the lost Ark of the Covenant. You have to admit though that's a pretty trippy autobiographical three-line cuz the Ark of the Covenant is supposed to kind of carry all of all knowledge, all you know, timelines. And your initial impetus for getting into all of this ancient civilizational stuff was looking into the Ark of the Covenant. I I ate it, I slept it, I breathed it, it it I I dreamed it all the time. It it it was with me. And look at how far you've

come since then as far as piecing together all these similarities across, you know, disparate sites all over the Yes. Yeah. That's very interesting. Initially, it was it was just an intriguing story and I I it wasn't the met my main focus in the in the 1980s, but it was something I gradually built up information on till I got to a point where I knew I had a book. What's the town that the Ark of the Covenant is Axum. Axum. A X U M and it's in the province of Tigray in in northern Ethiopia and and there's

a we would we would not go into it in detail, but there's a whole a long tradition in Ethiopia. Actually, Ethiopia is the only country in the world that claims to have the Ark of the There are lots of rumors, traditions, suggestions that it might be in Jordan, that it might be hidden beneath the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in all kinds of places, but there's one country in the world where it's a living tradition and where it's central oddly to Christianity in Ethiopia because it's a pre-Christian relic, but it's central to Ethiopian Christianity

and and they have their own story about how the Ark of the Covenant got there. But actually, it was as I began to research this subject and encountered the very interesting community of indigenous Ethiopian Jews who are known as the Falashas. They call themselves the Beta Israel, the House of Israel. Lost tribe. They have a very ancient presence in Ethiopia and they have their own story about how the Ark of the Covenant got to Ethiopia and it's quite different from the Ethiopian national epic, which is called

the Kebra Nagast, the Glory of Kings. Their their story is much much more and and is clearly factually based for all kinds of reasons like how their ancestors had fled from Israel carrying the Ark. Like how they brought it to an island in the Nile River and kept it there for several hundred years. Like how they were forced out and fled south following the Blue Nile to its source in Lake Tana, which is where the the Falasha communities still live today. Now, actually, when I say still live today, uh during the the chaos of

the overthrow of the Mengistu regime in Ethiopia in 1991, uh Israel uh flew in many, many large cargo planes and and actually airlifted out of Ethiopia the majority of the Ethiopian Jews and put them uh put them resettled them in Israel. Quite a number have returned, uh but there's still a large uh Ethiopian Jewish community in in Israel itself now. And they just have fascinating stories about this. And stories that make sense and stories that I was able to tie up with historical evidence. Uh so, you know, I gradually

Philistines, as they called in the Bible, briefly captured it. Uh they all died. Um so so bad that they had to return it to the Israelites. Which is fascinating because you say that the guards that are guarding it in Axum currently seem to have radiation damage in certain cases. They have They all have cataracts over their eyes. And and by and large, once they are appointed guardian of the ark, they have a lifespan of about 3 years. Uh and they all say, cuz I've interviewed a number of them in succession, when the previous one has died, I've

gone back, found a new a new guy there. And he said, "Yeah, my my predecessor died. Uh and and the ark did it." Uh and and he shows me the cataracts over his eyes and he says, "The ark is doing this to me." And and and and uh I said, "Why?" And I will remember this this phrase forever. He He said, "Because it is a thing of fire." And you said you almost went in there, but you were you were very afraid. Well, no. I I I was not allowed to go

in. I was allowed I was allowed through the gates in front of the sanctuary chapel in which the Ethiopians claim it's kept, but I wasn't allowed into the I think I asked you, "Why didn't you sneak in, Graham?" And you said, "There was You said something very interesting to me though." You said, "Something inside of me said I wasn't ready and it would be dangerous." it would be obnoxious to try and sneak in. It would be wrong. You know, I have to respect the sanctity of this place. Uh and and besides the the people of uh Axum are uh well

prepared to defend it. Uh were anybody to try to break into that chapel, they would be shot. It's as simple as that. Did You know, if it if this if if it's just been in Axum all along, you had, you know, Heinrich Himmler under Hitler looking for these, you know, the Holy Grail, the Ark of the Covenant. Did he ever try to go to Axum and take it from During the Italian occupation of Ethiopia, which was roughly 1935 to um the Ethiopians say that they took the ark out of Axum. Uh and they took it to

another place of safekeeping. That's their story. They took it to an island on Lake Ziway, which is south of of Addis Ababa. I wouldn't be surprised if there were efforts to find it, but uh the Ethiopians have been very competent and frustrating those efforts for for for a very long time. Anyway, it's a fascinating story and it led me down a track that I hadn't expected to find myself going down. And it led me down that track is of of what else is missing in our past and and why are archaeologists so arrogant because they

arrogantly and snearingly dismissed the Ethiopian tradition. Whereas at a heart level, when I encountered Ethiopians who were connected to this story, I found I found I found people with a with a deep commitment and faith to it and and uh solid reasoning why it should be there. Uh so that probably was the first time I began to wonder whether archaeologists are entirely trustworthy. Uh and certainly began to feel that if I'm researching any subject to do with the ancient past, I will not rely only on what archaeologists have to say. Mhm.

That's beautiful. So you realized there was something more true about the your first-hand experience Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely. And and that's my my my approach to to researching any subject is that I have to be there in person. I have to have boots on the ground. I have to I have to have strong local investigation going on. I can't just rely on books and what ex- so-called experts tell me. Shifting to the pyramids of Giza, Mhm. you say they're not just a tomb. Well, not only they're they're not a they're

not a tomb. They're not a tomb. The again, I'm in conflict with with Yes. Uh but I'm I'm certainly not the only one uh because the the the notion that the Great Pyramid is a tomb and only a tomb, which is what archaeology in my view is is absurd. Uh It's well known that no no burial of any pharaoh was ever found in the Great Pyramid or for that matter in any of the 100 pyramids in in Egypt. Some of that can be down to tomb robbery, but in the case of the Great Pyramid, that it was

Grand Gallery and it looks like the it looks like there's a second Grand Gallery above it uh within within the pyramid. That shows up in scanning. Nobody's been able to get in there yet, but it's it's not going to be an impossible technological feat to do so. I I I think rather than being at the end of the study of the Great Pyramid, I think we're just at the beginning of the study of the Great Pyramid and and little by little uh it if we are worthy, it will reveal its secrets to us. I think that's what it's intended to do. But it's not a tomb. Makes no sense.

I regard that as impossible and and anybody with structural engineering experience like my great friend Robert Bauval uh also regards it as impossible. More likely it's a it's a project that took hundreds of years to complete uh and and maybe thousands. Um I think that there's no doubt that parts of the Great Pyramid uh were completed and and finished by the ancient Egyptians. I I don't seek to to take it away from the ancient Egyptians, but I think they were inheriting a very ancient tradition and they were completing a monument that

already stood in basic form on the Giza Plateau. I felt from the beginning that the three ground platforms on which the three great pyramids stand are far older than the pyramids themselves and they an epoch that the ancient Egyptians called Zep Tepi, the first time. Mhm. Uh and they do so uh astronomically. They do so in terms of astronomical connection to Orion's Belt just as the Great Sphinx does so in terms of the connection to the rising sun on the equinox, uh which at one time was housed

by the constellation of Leo. Uh and that moment when the three stars of Orion's are due south on the meridian at dawn on the spring equinox is also precisely the moment that the Great Sphinx is looking at the constellation of Leo 12,500 years ago, not 4,500 years ago. 4,500 years ago, the stars of Orion's Belt don't match up. Um and uh 4,500 years ago, the Great Sphinx was looking at the sun rising against the background of the

constellation of Taurus. Uh but we have a lion-bodied monument representing a celestial figure that we call the constellation of Leo and that many ancient cultures called the constellation of Leo. And of course, immediately huge argument from Egyptologists from from archaeologists who who say, "No, no, uh the Greeks or the Babylonians late Babylonians discovered the constellations of the zodiac. Nobody had recognized them before that." Complete Complete complete rubbish. Ancient cultures exposed to the drama of

the skies in a way in a way that we are not could not have couldn't possibly have failed to observe the 12 zodiacal constellations, which happen to be the constellations that lie on the path of the sun. If you observe the annual course of the sun, you will see during the months of the year that it rises against the background of each one of those constellations. But over a much longer period, when your marker is the spring equinox, you find that it's going backwards through the zodiac. And it takes us gives us a very precise way of astronomically dating

a time that was very important to the ancient Egyptians. Again, I think it's important for people to get this, that it is impossible to use it's possible to use megalithic architecture, which is going to endure You know, there's that saying that uh time fears the pyramids, cuz they just last on forever. And to use astronomy to spell out a date uh very precisely, and that's what happens at Giza. We have many other

monuments all over the world, which may have been built. The example I usually give is one of the Gothic cathedrals in Europe, built in the 12 or 1300s, but but much of the symbolism is devoted to the age of Abraham, which takes you back or of the Chaldees to about 2000 BC. So so the notion that a that a monument might choose to memorialize a very ancient date doesn't have to mean that that monument was built at that ancient date. It can be referring to that ancient date and

saying, "To us, the ancient Egyptians, that date was very important." And I'd be willing to stop there if it wasn't for the erosion patterns on the Sphinx. Yeah. Which which water damage on the water water damage the the the exposure of the Sphinx to to thousands of years of heavy rainfall. That was not no such rains were on the Giza Plateau 4,500 years ago, but they certainly will when you go back to the were when you go back to the end of the last ice age. So it looks to me like the Sphinx and the megalithic temples beside it, the so-called Valley Temple, the

mortuary temples on the Giza Plateau, there are elements on the Giza Plateau in my view, Uh, it's much better to to to come to the conclusion that they were actually made 12 and 1/2 thousand years ago. And there are other elements which are memorializing the date of 12 and 1/2 thousand years ago. The implications of what you're saying are profound because the precession is a 26,000 year process. And for uh, a culture that we now consider primitive, I agree with you. I think it clearly was not at all

primitive. But to understand And the vernal equinox clear on that. The No way on God's earth can we call the ancient Egyptians primitive. No. No. No. This was a This was a highly sophisticated culture. And it was a culture as it emerges into historical recognition, as it becomes what they call archaeologically visible already fully evolved. They're doing their best stuff right at the beginning. Um, and and and they are from the

beginning memorializing much more ancient times. Zep Tepi, the first time, which I and my colleagues think correlates closely with the date that we call 12,500 years ago or 10,500 BC. But if what you're saying about the Sphinx and the pyramids are correct, and that the Sphinx was, for example, actually meant to depict Leo, which is a constellation which represented the vernal equinox shift around that period, Yeah. that represents such a precocious advanced astronomical knowledge, that's

macro It's cosmic scale knowledge, that we just don't have today. It's knowledge It's knowledge that requires scientific observation over a long period of time, particularly when you're actually going to create a marker of that on the ground. And I I think it's really important that I pay tribute to Robert Bauval, because it's Robert Bauval, close friend of mine, great great colleague of mine. Unfortunately, he's been very ill for the last several years. But but Robert uh is the person who established and found the Orion

correlation theory, for which he came into such vicious and violent attacks from Egyptologists simply for noticing that the pattern of the three pyramids on the ground resembles the pattern of the three stars of Orion's belt, and then tracking back through precession to find the time when it actually absolutely matches. And that's about 12,500 years ago. And Robert and I worked together on the on the whole mystery of the Sphinx, but but I would not be here in any way able to talk about the Orion correlation if it had not been for the absolutely fundamental

foundational work of Robert Bauval. And and I finish this by saying I I also want to pay pay tribute to Professor Robert Schoch of Boston University, geologist, professor of geology, one of the few mainstream academics who's been willing to stick his neck out and say, "As a geologist, when I look at the weathering patterns on this monument, it's not 4 and 1/2 thousand years old. It's more like 12 and 1/2 thousand years Again, Robert has come in for Robert Schoch has come in for horrendous attacks Yeah. from the archaeological

community. But he's he's had the guts to stick it out. And before him, John Anthony West, who who's passed away in 2018. It was John who first brought Robert Schoch to the to the Giza plateau. So, the ideas I'm expressing now have a have a lineage. And I may be the person who's writing them down, but they're not ideas that I've invented. And by the way, I think it's important to present to the audience that modern Egyptology is sort of a product and gated by modern Egyptian Ministry of Culture. And

you know, we're here actually, we have YesTheory present. They're amazing. They did a collaboration with you earlier this year. And we also have your amazing wife, Santa. We have Kate and Laura as well. And Amar over here is Egyptian, and he actually maybe his proto YesTheory experience that ended up kind of convening him with everybody else was he wanted to be the first person to one of the first people to climb the the Only to realize the grand Only to realize that Graham had already done it and seen that his his grandfather had an

insignia and he had done it too. graffiti at the top of the Great Pyramid. Yeah, I've been I've been lucky to climb the Great Pyramid several times. So I've climbed the Great Pyramid five times. What? Um two of those climbs were legal. Of course there was a time when anybody could anybody could climb the Great Pyramid, but here's my little anecdote. I found Santha and I together found at the top of the Great Pyramid on the south side overlooking what used to be the boat museum. Uh on one step down from the top, we found the name P initial P Hancock

5th of April, 1916. Well, my grandfather was Philip Hancock. No. Yes, and he was in Egypt. He was in Yeah, he was in Egypt during the First World War. Are you serious? But I still couldn't be 100% sure it was him and at that time my dad was still alive and he had my grandfather's diaries which were little things little diaries dozens of them and I went through to the date given and I opened that page and I saw just one line and it said climbed Great Pyramid today.

I'd like to add a comment to that. Um Zahi and I have had a long From his signature fedora to his discoveries at the Giza tombs and Valley of the golden mummies, Egyptologist Dr. Zahi Hawass is clearly a passionate promoter of ancient Egypt. Um, I've known Zahi since the mid-1990s. Um, and actually for many years that relationship was quite positive. It certainly wasn't negative. Um, but we had a falling out in 2015. And I said

some very harsh words to him at the looking back on them in retrospect as the years passed by, I began to feel I'd been unfair to Zahi. Uh, not so much that Zahi had been unfair to me, but I'd been unfair to And I've reached the point in life now I would like to remove all bitterness and past conflicts from my life. I don't want to be in conflict with with other people if if at all possible. So, I reached out to Zahi

earlier this year uh and uh told him that I would like to meet up and have a have a conversation. See if we can if we can make peace Did you meet up? Yeah, absolutely. Was it good? It was great. Um, Santa and I had dinner with Zahi and with Zahi's son Kareem. Yeah. Uh, it was a very enjoyable dinner. Um, Zahi is an entertaining and amusing speaker. Did he stay away from your semantic disagreements? Did you say I I told him I I apologized. I I made an apology to Zahi. And and by by doing so,

I I lifted a burden off my back. And I try to do this with with with with people who I have been unfair to and been unkind to. I I I want to put that right as much as I can before before I leave this this physical body for whatever for whatever happens next. Hopefully that's not for a long time. a burden of too much bitterness and bad feeling and baggage. That's uh that's very noble of you, but did you say, "Zahi, I think that the pharaonic headdress put on the Sphinx was after, you know, the

original base and it was actually Leo or knows I think that. The argument is that the Great Sphinx was originally a lion. Totally a lion, not just a lion body with a human head, but a lion body with a lion head. So, the fair the the pharaoh aspect is modern. Yes, originally it was a the prehistoric Sphinx was a lion. Um and and then the lion head uh became heavily eroded and damaged as thousands of years passed. And in the time of the pharaohs, it was

transformed. It was cut down and remade into the human head that we see on it today wearing the classic Nemes headdress of an ancient Egyptian Zahi and I um may have some interesting collaboration in the future. Interesting. it will be an agreement to disagree. where he will have the opportunity to strongly put his point of view, and I will have the opportunity to strongly put mine. won't do that by smearing and insulting each other. We won't do that by trying to cut each other down with ad hominem attacks on

each other. We'll do that in a friendly Does he have any first principles arguments against the limestone damage water erosion damage? yes, uh Zahi and all Egyptologists don't don't accept that. Yeah, but we What's What's the argument against it? Not accepting it seems obvious. what the argument is clearly. It's never persuaded me. But perhaps if I if I if I can have more dialogue with with Zahi, I'll understand it better and maybe and maybe I'll be able to persuade him a little more to to my point of view. Yeah. Um that that there are issues around the Sphinx and around the

pyramids which have not been properly Yeah. Um You attribute to Zahi, he is um undoubtedly spent his entire working life Yeah. uh focused on the archaeology of the Giza Plateau uh and on the archaeology of Egypt in general. This is a man uh with an enormous amount of experience in this field. This is a man who has had access to every important structure and monument in in ancient Egypt. Um in other words, he is a fountain of knowledge on the subject. Uh and I don't

and when it comes to the pyramids themselves lining up with the Orion's Belt Orion's Belt has has always across many cultures been the place of ascension of souls. Absolutely. It is it is here it in in North America. Uh and and in Central America and in South America. The the path of souls. Uh that idea that on death we our soul makes a kind of leap up to the heavens and then makes a journey along the Milky Uh and that that journey is full of challenges and difficulties

uh on which we will be assessed for the use we made of the incredible gift of Mhm. Uh that idea is found all over the world. It's a it's a it's a universal idea, and it's one of the reasons why I propose that there's been a forgotten episode in human history. That we are looking at a a a legacy of an idea that was passed down to many later cultures from a remote common ancestor uh going back to the to the end of the last ice age. And even if you look at the the king's shaft lines up with Orion and the

queen's shaft lines up with Sirius, right? So, it's this really interesting precise alignment with constellations shaft the king the shafts of the king's chamber don't point at Orion, but one of the shafts of the Queen Chamber does. Okay. Okay. And do you do but And and let's be clear. No king was ever buried in that chamber. These are These are all modern names that have been given by Egyptologists to these chambers to to manifest their theory about why there's so many chambers inside the Great

But we have no idea what the ancient Egyptians or anybody else ever called them in the past. have a Do you have a best guess as to what these were ritualistically used for given their alignment? Given the intense focus of the ancient Egyptians on the mystery of life after death, on the mystery of life, and on the mystery of death, actually. What What What happens to us? Most modern scientists of a very so-called rational persuasion who believe that everything can be solved

with weighing, measuring, and counting uh will tell you almost as though it's an absolute fact that they've somehow established through experimentation that the soul There is no such thing as the soul. Uh and that that that it that it does not survive death. Uh Of course, this is not a fact. This is a statement of a religious belief on the part of uh who who who who view uh any such thing as mystical and nonsense. Um there is no experiment that could be done. Frankly, it's a mystery. None of

us know. None of us know. None of us have a clue uh what happens. Maybe the the so-called rational scientists are right. Maybe we are just meat robots, uh living out our existence here here on Earth, producing and and consuming. Maybe that's all we are. It could be, but I don't think it is. And the ancient Egypt Well, our our society pays no attention to these mysteries. The ancient Egyptians, that was their focus for 3,000 years, and they came to very very very definite conclusions about it. Uh and those those conclusions, uh I

think, are very deep and very weighty and and worth considering. and it's fascinating that the same idea is found all around the world. I get it why many different cultures might believe in life after death. The argument for that is people delude them rational scientists argument for that is people delude themselves into believing there's life after death because they don't like the idea of coming to an end. But it's much more specific than that. It's not just life after death. It's this leap to the Milky Way. It's this journey through the what is called it it's

strangely it's called an underworld but it's also in the sky. It's this journey through it. It's the challenges and ordeals that the soul will face along the way where he or she will be held to account for for the life they have lived. For that very that very specific set of notions to turn up all around the world, that's not an accident. That is that is a result, I believe, of a of a shared common influence. And and that this is something else that archeologists, I think, don't really I think what's missing is a is an archeology of ideas.

And that ideas can live and can be passed on through stories, through traditions for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, and they can re-manifest again and again. So, you can get cultures that are separated by not just thousands of years, but also thousands of miles, who are still manifesting these ideas. For example, the ancient Maya in Central America, and we go into this in one of the episodes of season 2 of Ancient Apocalypse. With a with with with with with a great archeologist who doesn't hate me.

And and you know, he he agrees that this is a worldwide tradition. It's a very very curious thing. And there's this common trope, too. You have uh King Judaea of Sumeria saying that in a dream he was given this lapis lazuli, these tablets saying that he has to build a temple with these specific astronomical alignments. You see the same thing with uh uh Pharaoh Thutmose in Egypt. You see the same thing with Aztec leaders, with Nebuchadnezzar. This

sort of, you know, idea of you get this kind of download or you have this divine connection and then you must build this temple with these specific astronomical alignments. So, I think that does point towards something having to do with the afterlife or some sort of ascension portal. I was even reading Ptolemy. Ptolemy, you know, is proto-astronomy. He's sort of like the the in between of like the astronomy we have today and, you know, whatever we had in the past. And he's writing in 100 AD in Roman times. And he's saying that the, you know, soul's ascension path is through

Orion's Belt. And so, like right. The leap is always to Orion's Belt. That's another of the of the common factors in this idea around the world tour because Orion stands by the Milky Way. There you're on the Milky Way. Then you make your journey. So, are you are you getting to some sort of more true proto-architecture to religion that involves these sort of oral traditions passed down that cuts across geography? Look, the I'll give you two examples. The I've tried to explain it. It's best done

really, for for for this to be understood. The the phenomenon of because the Earth is is the viewing platform. I tried to explain it in this way from which we observe the stars. And because the Earth wobbles very slowly on its axis and because that wobble unfolds a complete cycle in just under 26,000 years, the effect for us as observers is that the stars' orientation in the skies gradually changes and the the rising

time of those stars in relation to the Sun gradually changes and the pole star gradually changes because the extended North Pole of the Earth is wobbling and and will sometimes point at empty space and sometimes point at other stars. Ours is Polaris, but it's been other stars in in in the past. So, this is this is a very complex, very sophisticated process, which requires detailed observation. Now, as I've said, using precession and monumental architecture, the ancient

Egyptians have built an enormous statement on the ground that speaks to the date that we call 10,500 BC astronomically. Speaks to that date about 12 and 1/2 thousand years ago. Then jump over to Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. Look at Pillar 43 in Enclosure D. Look at the Look at the very interesting symbolism on that pillar, which in which includes a scorpion, which includes a vulture with outstretched arms, which includes a a circle, which we believe resembles the

sun on the wing of that vulture. What we find is that that is very persuasively an astronomical diagram of the sky at the summer solstice 12 and 1/2 thousand years ago. And and the the sun is on the on the arm of Sagittarius is the constellation that we think is represented by that vulture figure. The fact that we call it Sagittarius, other cultures can call it other things and symbolize it as other but the fact is that the shape of that

constellation is what is reflected on that pillar. And using precession, it marks out again that same date that the ancient Egyptians called the first time. And that's interesting because Pillar 43 in Enclosure D Enclosure D has been dated to 11,600 years ago, but it's marking a date more than a thousand years before that, 12,500 to 12,800 years ago. So, that tells us that whoever built Göbekli Tepe, that that previous date was as important to them as it was to the

ancient Egyptians. That's so fascinating. I think so, yeah. You write about this a little in your book Talisman with Robert Bauval Yeah. of this sort of {quote} {unquote} Yes. that sort of hermetically transfers Yes, the passing down of knowledge over thousands of years does definitely involve some kind of organization. It's not going to happen randomly. Uh it can't happen it can't happen in in certain ways with stories. Um this is something that I I came to understand

precession. I've been talking so much I've forgotten how we got on that point. Well, I I I brought up the organization. Yes, the the the organization. So, one way that ideas can be maintained is to embed those ideas in wonderful stories. Mhm. Call them myths if you like. Which the story itself is so compelling that people will keep on repeating it down the ages. The storyteller no longer has to have knowledge that there is secret information embedded in that story. As long as the storyteller keeps on repeating the story through the secret

information will continue to be passed down. And later cultures if they're open-minded and have their eyes and ears open may be able to decipher that information. That's one way that that information can be preserved across thousands of years. That's one of the reasons why myths is so important to me without any organization involved. But I think very clear in the case of ancient Egypt, whether you call them the followers of Horus, whether you call them the souls of pay and necken, that these were secret societies which

were entrusted with preserving information from what they call the first time and passing it down to future generations. And although it may seem like a bit of a stretch, I suggest that that information was preserved for thousands and thousands of years and constantly passed down. And when the time was felt to be right, ancient Egypt Mhm. switched on. Mhm. Uh and of course it was switched on entirely by ancient Egyptians. This was thousands of years after the information had reached them and then was passed down through the generations and preserved. Um it's hard

to say why exactly uh the period of 3,000 BC, 5,000 years ago to 2,500 BC, 4 and 1/2 thousand years ago was chosen as the time to switch on the engine of ancient Egypt. But interestingly enough, that's exactly the same period that the engine of the Indus Valley civilization was switched on in what is now Pakistan and northern India. It's exactly the same time that the Yellow River civilization uh was was switched on. This is found this this date this this

emerge sudden emergence of civilization as it's called uh coordinates with that date all around the world. It's not just it's not just ancient Egypt. So again, that makes me feel that there's something behind it and that we're probably missing a very important part of the human story that's behind it. And that part of the human story goes back to the last ice age in my view. That's linking all of these civilizational cycles. And we think of the birthplace of kind of Western civilization as the Hellenic period and the Greeks, but in fact you point out that there's a really clear through line

from Plato to the ancient Egyptians. You have Solon and and the myth, you know, and and Well again, the the the Atlantis story is is I I've had so much scorn pulled on me by archaeologists for for taking the Atlantis story seriously. Because they're convinced that it's just a sort of political fable that Plato made up in order to establish certain philosophical points about how governments should work. And this was for the audience because it was told at

this festival that was, you know, mythos or whatever. It was in It was involved in sort of storytelling. I think mythology played a very There was more reality to to to a lot of what was transpired in these festivals than That's right. I mean, you'll you'll find the Atlantis story in the dialogues of Timaeus and Critias of Plato. what the archaeologists say is that this is all just a fable. But in order to say that, they have to

separate the Atlantis tradition from the global tradition of a great flood. That That tradition is worldwide. There are roughly 200 flood myths from all around the world. There are very few parts of the world that don't have it. And there are many striking common features about those flood and cataclysm myths. It's one of the reasons we call our series Ancient Apocalypse, actually. Uh and and I regard the Atlantis tradition passed down to us by Plato as part of that.

Well, cuz it dates to 9,600 BC, right? It It's one of the very few traditions of a global flood that destroys a former civilization. As I say, there's up to 200 of them. It's one of the only ones which actually gives a date. Uh and it gives that date because the Egyptian priests who read the hieroglyphs on the wall of the temple of Neith at Sais in the Delta to Solon and translated it for him. When he asked them, "When did this happen? When did this place get destroyed? When was it submerged beneath the sea?" They kind of

matter-of-factly said, "Oh, well, 9,000 years ago." There's the date. Because that was 600 BC. That's 9,000 years before 600 BC. That's 9,000 600 BC. That's 11,600 years ago, give or take 24 years before our time. And that is meltwater pulse 1 B. That is the one of the big sea level rise incidents that took place at the end of the ice age. So So for Plato to have stumbled upon that just randomly picked that date as some sort of grand fiction seems to me absurd. think once mythology starts to comport

with actual events, we have to stop calling it mythology. so. I I believe so. And and and I think I think what Plato did was I think he took he took elements of a very ancient tradition which which had been passed down to him by the ancient Egyptians as he as he states in the Timaeus and Critias dialogues. He took elements of that that were useful to him and he left out other elements that weren't. But it's the connection it's the connection to the worldwide tradition of a global flood that

archaeologists completely ignore when they seek to dismiss the Atlantis tradition. And I think they need to take it on board and rather than excuse the language, rather than pissing on Plato, you know, they they they they should say, "Well, actually, what can we find from this? This is this is very interesting. Let's see if there's more to it than we imagined." Let's see if that date is significant in some way and it is. Well, I think a a great other example would be the Peloponnesian War where we said it was all mythology and it was all you know, the the city of Troy did not exist and

then late 19th century we figured out, "Oh, there actually was a city a Troy. Yeah, that's that's that's one of the great That's that's one of the great examples and I think I think mythology needs to be used as a guide to the past rather than kind of sneered at as fantasies made up by our primitive ancestors. And in the 19th century case with Troy, it was found by Schliemann. Schliemann who was Heinrich Man Schliemann who was kind of this he was a businessman, he was an outsider. The nobody in

archaeology at the time respected him. I know, yeah. And they thought he was a fraud or whatever. Yeah, right. No, that's Archaeologists don't like outsiders. Well, in the 19th century you had all these guys, you had J.J. Frazer wrote the Golden Bough. You had all these anthropologists and guys who were contributing to the bedrock of what we now do, who kind of are more cut from your cloth than like this myopic paper chasing academia cloth. They were these you know, gentlemen journeyers who were very polymatic They had this wide view of, you know, what was going on historically. And they would come to

these amazing conclusions. And now we just, I don't know, we have these kind of nitpicker, you know, people who I I As I often I've often said, I've learned a great deal from archaeology. And there there are many great archaeologists still today who are doing who are doing good work. Yeah. Uh and often they are the archaeologists who are attacked by their colleagues. Yeah. But when it but when it comes to criticism of archaeology I find that archaeologists tend to circle the wagons around each other uh rather than

deal with those criticisms uh face face on. And and so speaking of archaeology as an institution, rather than individual archaeologists I would say that the it appears to me that the mission of archaeology as an institution is the kind of mission of a vampire. Uh they want to suck all the blood out of the ancient past. They want to drain the past of its blood, of its vitality of its mystery, of everything that makes it worthwhile looking into, and leave this stuff that can just be

counted and weighed and measured. They're so desperate to be seen as scientists that they've in order to be regarded as scientists, they've literally thrown the baby out with the Yes. And we end up with this dry discipline uh which is which is extremely unattractive in many ways and and fails to do justice to the romance and the beauty and the mystery of the past. And that is why people are interested in the past. They don't want the weighing and measuring and counting

to dominate the debate. There's a great place for weighing and measuring and counting, but for that to have a monopoly on our understanding of the past, that's a mistake. The past is too big a subject for one small discipline of scholars who include a a very vocal subgroup who who wish to destroy any alternative ideas. It's wrong for such a small group to have this death grip on the past and to claim that they're the only ones who have a right to speak of the past. I couldn't agree more. And I think the

same thing happens to Plato. The people who claim that Plato has no say on what actually is not a historian, you know, he's just some philosopher or whatever. I think philosophers actually do the same thing. Modern philosophers do the same thing to Plato where they say things like the myth of air holds no metaphysical bearing on what he actually believed. Or they call it the cave allegory because it's just an allegory, right? Well, what if Plato actually believed we live in a cave and there's some, you know, light we can glimpse outside of the cave and that the

myth of air is sort of prolonged and deep experience of altered states of consciousness will will know that we do live in a cave. Our perceptions are so channeled in to the physical world which they need to be. We need we do need to know the laws of physics, but we're so we're so focused into the physical realm that we tend we tend to shut our eyes to be closed off to a much wider reality that surrounds all of that. And so what do you think, you know, you wrote a great book called Supernatural and we've talked about Jacques Vallee

before and how you believe, you know, a lot of what people experience through psychedelic experiences. I know you've done ayahuasca many times and um other things as well. You've experienced some of these entities in in those journeys. Uh do you believe that is that encapsulates the modern alien conversation? Cuz there's also this sort of government disclosure thing around nuts and bolts and UFO crash recoveries. Well, I always go I always go back to I was fortunate to to know um the uh Peruvian shaman Pablo Amaringo. Mhm.

Um and know you knew him. I I did and and and had and had his permission to to uh a number of his images in in my book Supernatural which has recently been retitled Visionary in the United States with a new forward and afterward, but the main text remains the same. I did ask Pablo specifically why he is uh UFOs in his in his in his flying saucers literally. That's what they look like. Um and and I said, "I are you

are you telling us that we're being visited by beings from other planets? What are these flying saucers that you're depicting?" And again, very matter-of-factly, he he said, "Oh, well, those are vehicles for entering and leaving the spirit world." Mhm. That's what he said they were. So, maybe there maybe there is some physical uh that can gain access to other realms of reality. Uh but we do know that there is a a neurological tech that gives access to that. And that is the powerful psychedelics like like dimethyltryptamine which is the active

ingredient of ayahuasca uh which do which do completely change our setting and our state of consciousness and allow in all kinds of material that we normally keep out uh and give us give us access to that material. So, I think that I think that whatever the UFO mystery is, um it is it it it is going to be solved by more than one approach. And perhaps the most fruitful approach is through the mystery of consciousness and and what happens in deeply altered states of

consciousness. So, we now know that all around the world, fortunately science is progressing and we do in some ways. And we know that that at a at a number of centers now, Imperial College in London, University of California at San Diego, that work is being done with volunteers. They are being They are being given dimethyltryptamine by intravenous drip. Yes. Now, that's interesting because some of our audience will have experienced DMT and normally

when we experience DMT, we're going to smoke it or vape it. And when you smoke or vape DMT, you're into a 10-minute just utterly overwhelming journey to the other side of reality. And and it's so overwhelming that it's often quite difficult to remember exactly You know something happened to you. Yes. You know you did have encounters. There were sentient others out there who you communicated with, but it's hard to remember it. So, what they're doing at these two universities, one in Britain, one in the US, what they're

If you take LSD three, four, five days in a row, by the fifth day you're not going to have a trip at all. It's it You your body's become so tolerant of it, you have to take a break before you'll have any more experiences. But with DMT, you can just keep taking it every day and and and you will not build up tolerance to it. So, they're using that particular special unique characteristic of DMT to see what happens when people are plunged into this experience for much longer than 10 minutes. And And those volunteers are all coming back with reports of encounters with sentient

And And there is an interesting group now who are called sentient others, made up by these volunteers who are exchange now exchanging notes. They didn't exchange notes when they were volunteers because that was part of the protocol. But now that they're that they've stopped being volunteers, they're they're exchanging notes and astonishing similarities are being found. And And these these similarities are are of encounters with sentient beings who communicate with us and seem to have an urgent message to impart to us. They They want to know us and they want us to

know them. And And it seems that there is something of great value in this connection between the two. And a lot of people come out of these experiences saying they're more real than real. More real than real. More real than our sort of waking life. Yeah, definitely. There is another way that you can have a prolonged exposure to DMT and that is the ayahuasca brew. Yeah. Because the active ingredient of ayahuasca is DMT. The other ingredient is from the vine. It's particularly the harmine in the

vine, which acts as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor that allows the DMT to be absorbed orally. And And ayahuasca experience can last 4 or 5 hours, maybe more. But there's the distraction of the vomiting and the diarrhea, which makes it kind of difficult at times to focus on your journey. Yes. It's a really good idea to fast for a day before an ayahuasca trip. Do we know how they ended up getting the the the vine and the and the root because like out of hundreds of thousands of species in the Amazon? Yeah. Like who

the first people to put ayahuasca in I think it's a I think it's a tribute to the scientific nature of shamanism. The more time I've spent with shamans, particularly in the Amazon, the more aware I become of how they are constantly experimenting with plants. But this is an almost supernatural achievement there are two kinds of ayahuasca really. One is called yage and the other is called ayahuasca. What they both have in common is the ayahuasca vine. They both have the ayahuasca vine in common which contains

this monoamine oxidase inhibitor that allows DMT to be absorbed orally. But the source of DMT is different from for in yage than it is in ayahuasca. In the case of ayahuasca, it's the leaves of a bush called Psychotria viridis. It's known as chacruna in the In the case of yage, it's the leaves of another vine. And that vine is called And and that those leaves contain DMT and they

contain not only N,N-DMT which is the more known one but also 5-MeO-DMT. And and I can say because my my most recent experience was with yage. And that be overwhelming. It was incredibly powerful experience. Very very powerful and and compelling in in in every way and again this sense of a presence and of and and of communication. And I realize as I'm saying this to you Jesse that I am handing yet another stick to my critics

to beat me with because that's one of the things that they do is that they drug shame me. They say that because Hancock has taken ayahuasca this is why he comes up with all these crazy ideas about the past. Well, the truth is you know anything anything that works to shut somebody down they will use. goes to like this epistemological argument of you know you somehow can't learn anything through intuition in the modern day for it to be valid. You have to like piece it together through pure inductive rational logic which is not how anybody operates.

It's not even how rationalists operate if they audit themselves. It's not. There's a There's a real place for intuition and imagination. Absolutely. Uh and and that place that's what archaeology in particular has tried to drive out and most sciences have tried to to drive out. look at the epiphenomena of science itself. The most productive science comes through dreams and revelations and downloads. There's actually a great book by uh Professor uh Hélène Canales called Bedeviled about the history of demons in science. How interesting.

Maxwell had a demon, Descartes had a demon, Laplace had a demon. All these guys who were literally building the science and tech that push humanity forward that all these kind of nitpicky, you know, uh uh current physicists or whatever, you know, uh are building off of now had these sort of revelatory downloads. Stuff that came out of altered states of Absolutely. Yeah, I know you brought up Francis Crick in the double helical structure of DNA. that's that's right. And and Kary Mullis, you know, Kary Mullis, yeah. Kary Mullis saw an alien, too. You know, so it's time actually that and

I'm glad to say that that's what's happening at Imperial and that UCSD is that science is beginning to take these experiences seriously rather than just dismiss them of our brain on drugs. And it's it's so beautiful to see science merge with honestly ancient traditions. Cuz if you look at Saint Thomas of Aquinas, he had an angel You got the Syrian Neoplatonist Iamblichus, he had an angel hierarchy. Yeah. And you see these people mapping the spirit world via DMT and you have these various beings. Yeah. And I think a really interesting project at, you know, maybe in a year or

two once we get some more data is how do those line up to some of these ancient cabalistic traditions. Yeah, that's that's that's what needs to be done. And again, science just has to get over its hang-up uh uh uh about actually about intuition and about altered states of consciousness. And unfortunately, it's beginning to do so and we're get we're seeing some real solid scientific work being done. I mean, I personally would not like to be in an MRI scanner uh while on a DMT drip, But that's one of the things that they're doing. Do you think you know the the curse of

King Tut's tomb? Yeah. This idea that like anybody that you know you had a couple people try to x-ray it and then they sort of die mysteriously. Do you have any sort of take take on that? Because I I was looking it up today. I was like, "I'm going to ask Graham about this." And you know, originally it was like this like mysterious metaphysical thing and now the answer that like you read online is like, "Oh, it's the uranium." Like coming from like the local geology. Like the rocks or And I'm like, "That's not a satisfactory answer." Like that's very interesting in

uh you know, this is like the modern UFO kind of craze or whatever. But it's about how UFOs consistently show up around nuclear bases all over the US. There's something about nuclear that also represents a portal. Yeah. And there's like a few ways out of the simulation. It's like the consciousness protocols and then there's like something around nuclear. I think. let's go back to what Pablo said. Vehicles for entering and leaving the spirit world. When a shaman speaks of the spirit world, he's just that close to a quantum quantum physicist speaking of parallel

dimensions. You know, the spirit world is just another word for a parallel dimension. Which is an idea that again is gaining currency in in in the world today. So I'm I'm very I'm very interested in the ongoing uh, UFO revelations that are taking place. It's not been central to my work over the years. I've I've never felt that I I've I've never felt particularly attracted to the ancient alien hypothesis in its nuts and bolts form. Uh, where where aliens are are supposed

to have crossed into stellar space and built the pyramids. I I do believe that a lost human civilization is the best answer to that problem. But the question is, what inspired that? And I think it was experiences in altered states of consciousness and definite encounters. There's no doubt now. Nobody Nobody, no matter how rational they think they are, can dispute that large numbers of people under the influence of ayahuasca and straightforward DMT are having encounters with sentient beings or what

they interpret as sentient beings. The only question is, what are those things? What are those What are those beings? And I think that there there are two parallel tracks of research here. One is the nuts and bolts parallel and the one is the consciousness parallel. And it is only when both are embraced that we're going to get to to a solution to this. I think I think the nuts and bolts idea that that that physical aliens are are uh, and they've got here in kit that's just a bit more sophisticated than our space rockets. That doesn't work for me.

Uh, but but a much more deeply mysterious idea which it may have inspired many ancient civilizations, I'm open to that. Yeah, I I agree with that. I think it's not quite just this you know, next step in space travel. It's clearly something more. And and and you know, the the the showing up around nuclear bases, that's that's that's interesting. I mean, if you have um, if uh, if you have a culture like ours, global technological civilization, we've been given by the universe an

amazing gift, planet Earth. We've been allowed the opportunity to live out our lives through multiple generations on this planet. What a gift to give us. Are we repaying that gift properly? Uh when we indulge in mutually mutual destruction? When we even have a word for it called mutually assured destruction? Yeah. Where, you know, if you nuke me, even though I'm dead, my submarines are going to nuke you and wipe you out. Yeah. This is childish

behavior. This is This is This is the the behavior of of unhinged teenagers who who have at their disposal the power of gods, uh which is what nuclear weapons are. That's right. and and and if there is any oversight in this vast mysterious universe that we're only just beginning just beginning to understand, if there is any oversight, that oversight might well take an interest in the possession of the power of gods by crazed teenagers, which is what all the leaders of the world today

are. I have no respect for any single leader in the world today. I don't care what party they're from, I don't care what country they're the leader of, I don't have respect for any of them. What they're not They're not leaders, they're misleaders. They're pursuing their own agendas and deceiving the public in order to get support behind those agendas. We need a whole new way to function in the world if humanity is going to continue as a species. If anybody cares about that, and I certainly do. I I have I have nine grandchildren. I don't want them to grow up in a world that's that's suddenly

devastated by a nuclear holocaust because of the stupidity, the idiocy, the irresponsibility, and and and the macho attitudes of these teenagers in old bodies who are running the world. Mhm. Amen. Well, he uh uh uh Thank you. Yeah, that was beautiful. That was amazing. Robert J. Oppenheimer, who is the father of uh fission bombs and sort of arguably created this calamitous world that we're in, but was a very complex character and regretted it immediately afterward. There was a rumor that um and I we'd

have to, you know, collect the exact provenance on this. I'll disclaimer to the audience. I don't know for sure if this happened, but a student of his was rumored to come up to him and said, um you know, "You've created the the first atom bomb, you know, how do you feel?" And he said, "I've created the first atom bomb in modern history." Yeah. And if you look back at the uh Bhagavad Gita and you look back at like the Vedas and and a lot of, you know, Hindu traditions, it's descriptions of these sort of crazy death weapons Mhm. that seem to, you know, tap

I may not quote the line correctly, but it it roughly uh I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. Yes. You know, I still get a tingle when I repeat that. There's a There's wisdom passed down to us from from from the past. Yeah. As far as I know, we're the first human civilization that had the power of nukes. Uh but what do we really know about the deep and ancient past? There's so much There's so much that may be missing. Uh it's it's it's it's not clear, but what I what I do know is is within the the

civilizations and even the notion of a lost civilization that I've been pursuing, I think we're the first to have embraced these horrific weapons uh where whereby a planetary apocalypse can be brought upon us by our own behavior, where we can actually do it to ourselves. You know, where we don't need that gigantic solar out burst or we don't need to be hit by multiple pieces of a disintegrating comet. We're so stupid and so irresponsible that we'll just do it to ourselves. We're so tribal that we that we

regard our particular tribe as having a right to wipe out other tribes. This has to change if there's to be any future for humanity. Do you think that the veil is thinning and simultaneous to multipolar nuclear world that's on the brink, we're also sort of commensurately waking up Yeah, I do. I do. I think the only hope is an elevation of Uh and and and that has to be across a wide range of the population. No no dictator comes to power without a substantial mass of the population

supporting that dictator. That's the They don't just seize power. They're They're manifesting a particular impulse within society. And that and that comes from low consciousness. A very low state of consciousness. And I would say that my comment on on leaders a moment ago, I would say those who are leading the world or misleading the world today are at the lowest possible state of consciousness that a human being can have. And how tragic it is that they're that they're running the world. Consciousness change will be what

saves us if it if it can happen fast enough. If more and more people wake up and realize the predicament we've put ourselves in. And and and and realize that we're all fellow human beings sharing this journey on this amazing garden of a planet voyaging through the And we need to look after each other and look after ourselves. Great power brings great responsibility. We should not use that power for destruction. We should use it for building and for construction. If people

are in a more difficult condition than we are, we should help them get out of that condition. We shouldn't kill them off. That's beautiful. Do you remember when we talked about the Tayos Cave? Are you familiar with that? I am. Yeah, I I've I've never I've never really followed that up much except except it's becoming more and more obvious. And again, I tried to to look into this in in season 2 of Ancient Apocalypse that the Amazon is a place of A great unknown. And the moment we start scratching the edges of that unknown, we

find things that are stunning and awe-inspiring and and just we never conceived of them before. So, the notion of what is it? These gold tablets in the in the Tayos Caves? It's Ecuador if I recall correctly. at the edge of Ecuador, this this cave that they they claim to have ancient, what feels like an alien metallic artifacts. It's like it was a library actually of these books. And the interesting thing is, you know, I've always found this to be the most interesting thing about the Tayos Cave is that cuz who knows whether it exists,

but Neil Armstrong went to the moon. He comes back. He acts kind of weird to be honest by just objective accounts and you know, says some interesting things. And then in the next expedition he goes on has nothing to do with space. It's to this cage at the edge of the Amazon which is rumored to have these sort of alien artifacts and he brings this BBC film crew in with him in 1975. I want to watch that documentary. Yeah, right? Well, it's online. I'll send it to you. Yeah. Please, please, please. Yeah. Yeah, and what happened? They didn't find it. But I'm in touch

with this guy who claims that his father led Neil Armstrong down the wrong path. Yeah. So and then we had a call with him and you were like, I don't think that's going to happen. Like you were like, I don't think you guys have the answer to And so but I don't who knows. Who knows. Yeah, yeah. Is there a place where like if you had just infinite money, is there a place you would look now that you think is the most productive do or do you think it is the Amazon? Do you think it's lighter in the Amazon forest? it's more than one place. Okay. Um and I've tried to I've tried to draw attention to this

through through my work. idea of a lost civilization at all is is because of these astonishing shared symbols and ideas that are found all around the world. This shared knowledge, the same idea of what happens after death and so on. That's that's the that's the where my curiosity has driven me to inquire into this possibility at all. Um and I have very definite reasons for inquiring into this possibility.

But I'm often accused of presenting a what they call a god of the gaps argument. When I say that there are certain very important parts of the world that archaeologists have never really looked in properly at all. That's not a god of the gaps argument. I'm arguing the case for a lost civilization because of a mass of evidence that has led me to the conclusion that there is a forgotten episode in the human story and that it it manifests through very many shared ideas and influences all around the world. But the gaps

are not just any old gaps. The gaps are the Sahara desert. The Sahara desert Yeah, there's been some archaeology, but it's pretty minimal. I think if we want to get into the origins of ancient Egyptian civilization, we're going to have to start looking at what the Sahara was doing during the Ice Age. Indeed, we're going to have to start looking at what a lot of places were doing in the Ice Age. The Sahara, about 9 million square kilometers, hardly touched by archaeology. I'm not saying there's no archaeology, but it's minimal. Um I would like to see a much more expanded investigation of the

entire Sahara desert, which we know was green and fertile and a great place for people to evolve a civilization. Do you know Jimmy Corsetti? I know Jimmy, yes. So so what's your So it's like you I'm not in I'm not into the eye of the Sahara. The the Richat Structure? The Richat I'm not into it I'm not going to write it off completely. I get that the ring structure resembles how Plato described Atlantis. Um but it's premature for me to pronounce on that cuz I've never been there. Well, you think Atlantis was

possibly in North America. Randall Carlson thinks maybe it was in the Azores in Portugal and then Jimmy is a very interesting a very interesting potential, but I think it was more than one place. I think it was a I think it was a was a civilization that that precisely occupied the places that were that were very hospitable during the Ice Age, which are not not accessible or not as hospitable now. Um and and um the the Sahara Desert is one of those. The Amazon rainforest is another. The submerged continental

shelves that were above water during the ice age and are now underwater. Again, the Amazon, the Sahara Desert, the submerged continental shelves, none of them have had enough research done uh to say, "Oh, there was definitely no lost civilization." We have to do more research. Those gaps on their own wouldn't be enough, but it's the curiosity, it's the clues, it's the mysteries, it's the enigmas from the past that archaeology does not explain that motivate the quest for a lost civilization of the past. And then, when

we ask ourselves, when I ask myself, "What are the most likely places that we're going to find the hard evidence for that?" Those are the places precisely where archaeology hasn't looked enough. Well, I think And where they are looking, like in the Amazon, as I show in in season 2 of Yeah. where they are looking, they're finding extraordinary mysteries. They're They're finding that the Amazon was once populated by tens of millions of people, that they were able to feed themselves, that there were huge cities in the Amazon with permanent populations, that there are enormous geometrical earthworks, precisely very precise on an

enormous scale, which actually can only be seen in full form from from an aerial view. And yet there they there they are. And and and that's an example of stories that you've heard 16th, 15th century explorers seeing these things driving your research, and then you corroborating those stories. And if you were to a priori discount those stories, you wouldn't be able to figure this stuff out. And you're doing real scientific work. That's right. I And that's pres- one of the differences between me and me me and archaeologists is that they they do a

priori discount those stories. Um and and yet when those stories are ground truth as ground truth as has been the the in the Amazon with the introduction of lidar technology, those stories turn out to be true. Absolutely. Well, I would bet on everything you're saying because, you know, archaeology's 200 years old and the history of archaeology is the history of human civilization getting older. So, I think it's a actually an easy base case bet to just say, "You're

such a claim. I have never made such a claim. I am following my curiosity and I hope that the readers and viewers will take that journey with me and will see the inspiration of the past and will do their own work on it. This is a work in progress. I am nowhere near proving the existence of a lost civilization, just like they are nowhere near proving the nonexistence Of course. But you were you're you're breaking Look, everybody who watches Ancient Apocalypse

I've been criticized for saying data. Apparently, in America you say data. Yeah, but that's okay. I think anybody watching would get, you know, make the adjustment live in their They were initially relying on what I called impact proxies. They didn't have a crater. This was one of the reasons why their critics found it so easy to dismiss. They said, "Where's the crater?" You know, You know, talking about wiping out an an an entire clade of creatures, that that all the dinosaurs go overnight, there must be a crater and there isn't one. But but

they said, "No, we don't need a crater because we've got the proxies which prove that there was a huge impact. We've got the We've got the melt glass. We've got the carbon microspherules. We've we've we've got the trinitite. We've got the shocked quartz. You know, we've we've we've we've got evidence all over the world of a a boundary layer that testifies to this." But it still wasn't accepted until they found the crater. These are These are which is the Chicxulub crater, deeply buried in the Gulf of Mexico. It's the same argument that's being used

Dryas impact hypothesis. Well, I pray all the amazing work you're doing, all the amazing consciousness work you're involved in as well, that moves faster than whatever Taurid meteor stream shower we might be hitting as an Earth. And it's been an absolute honor to sit down with you, Graham, and it's always a blast and really we really appreciate everything you've done. Total pleasure. I always enjoy talking to you as well, Jesse. I I remember our last conversation very well and it was it was a great pleasure. So, thank you for having me on the show again. Always. And do you guys have anything?

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank And on the macro level of what the world is going through right now, I think we're like in on the precipice of of a of a really unfathomable paradigm shift in our own understanding of I think we are. this in the universe, our human I think your work is almost like it's it's time is we can already feel people starting to be more familiar with it, but I I actually think like this decade that we're in it's only going to be year by year more people being open to this

because everything is going to be in question. It's not just going to be like Wait, well well, you know, like we we've heard astronomers for past 20 years tell us that the universe is 13.8 billion billion years old and now it's like 27. Yeah, exactly. That's one of my motto. Stuff just keeps on getting older. And the UFO thing is actually really cool too because you have all these executives at Lockheed Martin and stuff saying like basically expressing extremely trippy

out there world views. You have guys, you know, this guy Jim Ryder, this VP of space systems there saying that the vent the fail sorry, the veil is thinning and that that is literally the magnetosphere of the earth which is weakening right And so we're seeing more and more of this stuff as a result of that. And if like It's it's interesting with with with with perception. The the more and more people who start to perceive something that previously has not been looked at, the more visible that thing becomes. It's it's it's it's like the energy it's like the energy of an of an open mind spreads out.

And and and it's it's interesting that that this that this is mobilized to a certain extent around around ancient ancient history the so-called leaders in the study of the past are are archaeologists. And I think this is one of the reasons why my work has been found so threatening by archaeologists because I'm questioning their leadership. Yeah. But interestingly on a broader scale, people all over the world are questioning all kinds of leadership. Particularly political leadership, but also medical leadership and other leadership. We we are seeking to to

happening. It it does. It's uh it's a very challenging time. It's also a time filled with potential for for hope for the future. All things are there. Ultimately, the choice is up to us. An emerging of the science and the spirit, kind of what you're doing where what you your work is the interplay between your own intuition, consciousness, and then evidential Yeah. And it's it's this oscillation back and forth and they're kind of meeting at that some omega point. Yeah. And I I see that happening

everywhere and it's it's beautiful. Yeah. It is. It is.