"Aliens Live Among Us...I've Met Them!" -Whitley Strieber Tells All

There's something in your body that you uh believe is an imp implant that feel right here. Can we see it? Can you touch it? You can't I don't you touch it if you want cuz I feel like two years and I can give you a CT scan of Is it okay? Is it weird if I touch it or is it okay? No, it's fine. But I feel like might be a little hot because it's been working two three years ago. Uh two, three years ago if you had if you had told someone. Go ahead. Touch it. Don't be scared. Okay. Wait. Here. Here. I'm kind of scared. It's right under my finger now. Oh my

an honor to just do this together and meet all the all the amazing people that you just uh brought into my life over the past three years. Appreciate you, man. Well, you've been really pushing me to do this. Yeah. You and Whitley met. We all met actually at the Soul Conference. We got lunch before that, but you know, we kind of reconvened at the Soul Conference, which was held by Gary Nolan at Stanford uh last year. And you guys really hit it off. And since then, Amar has been like, "You got to interview Whitley. You got to interview Whitley." Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're doing it. Adding to to Jesse's intro and and even

topic and meeting people with Jesse and without Jesse constantly come back to in the '9s at some point I was standing in front of a bookstore and that book just like stood, you know, stood out for me and something about seeing the eyes again that almost uh created like a moment of regression for so many experiencers. Yeah. And uh I almost reflect now, you know, this is the end of 2024. The entire country seems to be talking about drones and UFOs and it's like the most in the zeitgeist that's been in my my lifetime. And uh and yeah,

warning at bookstores all over the country. And he said, "Well, we felt like there was some kind of resistance." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "I'm not sure." And I don't know whether he meant I'm not sure I should tell you or I'm not sure of the resistance. But for some reason, they jumped the book about two weeks and it showed up. You know, when I was writing that book, I if it crossed my mind that it was going to initiate contact for the

ordinary people, which is exactly what it did. Uh I don't know. I might have frozen up. I might have never occurred to me, never even crossed my mind. Uh I was aware by then uh that there were people inside the government who had had a certain amount of contact because I had met uh a space scientist David W. web who had come into our lives, I think through Stanton Freriedman, the UFO researcher, and he was very wellconed in the intelligence community and very

supportive and very friendly and met us for dinner and came and stayed at the cabin and said it was I was doing a wonderful thing and so forth and so on. He's very sweet. Uh so I knew the government was aware of this of this whole abduction scenario although I think now that they've understood the full extent of it they might not be so willing to say they were aware of it then but uh in any case the fact that this period this thing

that happened in ' 85 initiated contact is still sort of surprises me because I don't feel like the sort of per I don't feel like I don't see how it could be me that did it. That's all I can say. And that's exactly why I felt like we needed to have a conversation with you because now that just people are more accepting of the idea that the NHI is most likely involved with disclosure and things moving in the way they have been. I often think I'm like, well, something was very specific about choosing you to

have this experience, knowing your background, successful writer, you know, could deliver an experience and and articulate what he went through in a in a way that can make other people connect with that. And I and I often come back to like how how do you how do you make sense of that today? Oh, I know exactly why they chose me. I can tell you precisely. Well, they chose me for a number of reasons. First, it's a family affair. My one of my uncles is

was heavily involved in this at right General Axon. No, he's his my uncle Mickey and General Exxon were worked at the air material command in 47. And my father was apparently involved, but he was so secretive I I have no idea whether or not he was. Uh, and your father was an Air Force No. Oh, no. He was he was in the well, he was in the army during the war and then there were a couple of incidents in childhood that seemed to me in retrospect to involve this, but that's

not where I want to go right now. Uh where where I'd like to go right now is into this this issue of uh why me? And that was part of it. I mean I don't want to go down the road of the details about the family connection but the most important part is and I have come to an awareness and I'm pretty sure I'm right that they are very concerned about something called cultural colonization.

In other words, if they show up with this amazing array of being, skills, technology, mind, they're going to overwhelm us and make us feel completely disempowered. And they don't want that. They're not looking for slaves. They're looking for friends. and they don't want us to be running around behind them begging for their cell phones or whatever their cell phones to the beyond or whatever they have. And so the choice

of this guy, I I can tell a good story. I'm [clears throat] an efficient writer, but I don't come from authority. I'm not a scientist. I'm not Carl Sean. I'm not I don't have I can't you you you can take my work and you can say he was a horror novelist and he maybe he wasn't making as much money as he wanted on his horror novels so he wrote a horror novel and called it real in other words you can just opt out if you want to with me

if it was a scient scientist with a big PhD and a lot of authority you couldn't opt out so with me it's take it or leave it you can take it it's accurate the story is feel and especially if it happened to you, you're going to be able to you're going to say, "Wow, this is deeply empowering to me." And that's this is what they wanted. And I think that's why I ended up where I was. Wow, that's amazing. So, you were kind of chosen as a no. I mean something that

you've talked about as well is the great John von Noman who is known for being an absolute genius in his time smarter than all of the other incredibly smart scientists in the US Hungarian and uh studied at a very you know actually notorious school in Hungary with along with his colleague Jonathan Vignner and was just known as you know laid the mathematical foundations for quantum mechanics a lot of modern computational principles he has said and you've cited he's written a paper on the aliens possibly uh needing to be believed into

existence. And if they do exist in some sort of parallel timeline or dimension that uh human consensus belief needs to shift into uh kind of actually manifesting them and so you would be an incredibly important kind of first node of creating that sort of belief. Well, yeah. And that has been the source of a lot of friction uh for me in my a internal friction and friction with people on the inside who are aware of

what you just said. Now, as far as this goes, let's go back and let's explore Vonoyman a little bit. Very interesting. He came up with he was involved in this. I think that we're past the point of saying, "Oh, uh, these scientists who were supposedly in the Majestic 12 group, if that was even its real name, that's all nonsense. It's just San Freriedman made the whole thing up." That's not true. They were involved. A couple of data points to support you

before you go on is Robert Sarbacher said John Vonoman was directly involved, right? And vonoman died of a a really kind of gnarly form of cancer and he had uh cir secret service outside of uh the naval hospital that he that he was in because they were afraid of what he might say. That's exactly right. Yeah. Well, you know, I knew Robert Sarbacher. You knew Sarbacher? Oh, absolutely. No way. Stan Freriedman was a was a catalyst and he introduced me to Robert Sarbacher and

to other people. Do you think Sarbacher was involved? And then we'll get back to V. Yeah, I knew Sarbacher was involved. In fact, I'll tell you a fairly weird story here. Stanton gave me Sarbacher's number and then he called me back and he said, "Sarbacher is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you." So, I call Sarbacher. Sarbucker proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was dis was working on at the Battel Memorial Institute about how that when when um electron

microscopes became operative. He they understood that there was a a molecular grid grid a designed grid inside the inside this very thin material and that was what made it so strong. And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our uh military technology in many different ways and possibly civilian as well. And he asked me I narrated my experience to him. This is before communion was even

How'd you meet him? Through uh St. Freeman. Okay. So um uh and I narrated it to him and he said I want you to write it all down and send it to me. So the next day I sat at my typewriter. I wrote the whole story out. I put it in an envelope and uh we weren't near we were I was at my cabin in upstate New York and we were not near FedEx but UPS had just started overnighting and so they were willing to come pick it up. So I called the UPS

office and they came along and they picked it up to take it to Sarbach. The next morning, I get a call from the UPS guy on the scene saying, "We can't deliver it. The recipient has expired. He's dead. He died." Yeah, that came to him. Give me chills. Wow. The night he died. But that was after commun 86. I believe it was 86.

Yeah, he died right around then. I thought he wrote to William. Oh, well it it was it was while community at that point was being created and that I'm quite sure of I'm quite sure of the Wow, that's so it was very scary and I and I've Do you think it was related to your I have no idea. He he was I was told later that he fell off his boat and I know the UPS guy said he fell off his boat and uh the death certificate says natural causes. Well, the context around

what was happening at this time is Sarbacher had just written a letter to William Steinman, who's another UFO researcher who was actually an employee of Skunkworks who got basically fired over his research around UFOs. And he was saying, you know, yes, there was a program and Vonman, uh, Vanavar Bush, Oenheimer were all involved. And he says these beings are like insects, you know, they're very lightweight. And he talks about crafts and stuff. So maybe he was killed for you running his mouth or something because he was head of

Washington National Labs and David Grush has said on record that he set up UFO secrecy in 1954 and I know he's very close with Thomas Townsen Brown who was a mid-century anti-gra. He set up UFO secrecy along with Oenheimer. Well, what's so fascinating about that is Sourer would he talked about it very Well, that's the thing. He was then I didn't realize he died like that. He was scrubbed from the internet. There is nothing on Serbach or now. All you can see is a a a little memorial from, you

know, I think it's some Florida magazine or whatever. I know other people who are deep inside who are like that, who were extraordinary, had extraordinary lives, and now you can barely find them on the Like who? Well, we're not going to go down that path. Let's keep talking about Sour Pocker. Um, do you think Well, maybe and maybe maybe talking to me was a mistake. I was very frightened by it. I'll tell you that. And if you read Communion, you'll see my references to this, but I don't mention his name in

communion because I was scared to. That was Sarbach. Oh. Well, Sarbacher's son has now gone on record saying, "My father told me that he used to put cameras on, you know, modified versions of V2 rockets in order to chase UFOs." So, it has a familiar ring. He might have said that to me, actually. Really? I don't remember directly, but it does have a familiar ring. Well, that was more and more is coming out about Sarbacher and Ross Coloulthart has some interesting data points around some of the nuclear engineers,

old-timers that he's met with in Australia, knowing who Sarbacher was. I think Sarbacher even taking a trip out there because they had their Womera uh nuclear test site, And so there being some correspondents there and so that's fascinating. You didn't realize for context when we when we did the documentary with Rush last year, I asked him there is one person that you can ask questions that can lay out that can allow you to understand the architecture of the program. Who would it be? And he said it was Sarbacher. How fascinating. Because Sarbacher spent

a couple hours on the phone with me. So they knew they knew what was happening to me. They had to have known or he wouldn't have done that. Well, when when uh Towns and Brown finally achieved a positive result with his anti-gravity experiments, this was in uh Paris, he flies back to the US and um Robert Sarbacher picks him up in his in his uh big Cadillac. And uh you know that's that's a noted by his daughter Linda and and and his historian Paul Shatskin. And so I think uh you know he was he seemed

deeply involved in all this stuff and he he's written big textbooks. He was known for having, you know, an IQ of 200 plus and um I think having some correspondence with Starbucks. Yeah. Yeah. He was obviously extremely smart. Very quick. And uh full of insight by the way and uh really I think he did a lot of good. That must have been encouraging for you before community was made to just know that you were Well, the first time I wrote it down was for him. Oh, and the UPS said we'll we'll send the thing back to you, but I

never received it. He's he's written a book too about ultra highfrequency physics which is basically if you think about what happens at ultra high frequencies. That's the stuff that the National Science Foundation is now quietly admitting unfortunately the necessary and only impetus that will allow us to release suppressed science is kind of game theory visav other countries and national security. But they're now releasing this ver model of extended electronamics which you could say people like Starbacher were probably looking into in the ' 50s cuz these are

sort of microw microwave really extremely, you know, high up the electromagnetic scale, you know, uh uh uh very short wavelengths um that have all sorts of weird effects, you know, and uh explain a lot of the bi biological effects as well when it comes to UFOs. So, well, that's very interesting. I I haven't kept up with that. Right. I I want to get let's get back though to um Vonoman. Yeah. because and parathetically on the way back to vonoman

uh he didn't tell me personally but he told a member of my family uh uh uh not vonoman uh general exon that he had held when the debris and bodies were brought into air material he had held one of the bodies and he this is from the Roswell crash yeah 1947 he had said he said it was like a big Insect. Yes. And that's certainly my impression of them. Only they're not big. I mean,

the species that built it and would then move around the galaxy looking for planets that it could seed what if that's what we have here only vonman in in his I don't recall if in very much detail in the writings he did about this. But he does mention that something like that over vast amounts of time would inevitably have a certain amount of deterioration of its its uh memory.

What if what we have here is something that was programmed to uh seed planets like this, but not programmed to find someone else because they had as much trouble as we're having finding other people and decided there weren't any. And so it arrives, it finds us and doesn't know what to do. And that's why we have this bizarre situation that if you look step back from the whole thing,

it could be it looks a little bit like an AI that has gone berserk. Vonoman, the vonoyman machine could be an explanation for why this is so peculiar. Let me put it that way. But the other thing that von Norman and you referenced briefly this paper earlier, there is supposedly a paper and General Exon who was no scientist but had been exposed to a lot of scientists involved in this and was very smart tried to explain this to me and of all

the scientists who were involved in it, I thought he was most likely talking about something that von would have thought up, would have conceived. There could have been other scientists involved in it that I don't know about, the paper supposedly is just a couple of pages long and it if it even still exists because a lot of this stuff was gone with the wind, I'm sure by now. Um, and what it postulates is that if

this presence is not from this physical universe or even if possibly even if it in order to become part of our reality where it does not exist in any way, it has to a deeper realization of its reality. It has to be as real for us as we are to each other

as this is to it us as this is to us as our world is. If it's not from our world, it has to break through into our reality by taking us not just to a level of belief in its presence, but to an assumption about its presence that is as basic as our assumption about the rest of the reality that we know. It's fascinating. How do we get our hands on that paper? Because we know on record that von I mean no scientist would

dispute this. uh he entertained this idea that the mind is responsible for wave function collapse. That's exactly why I think he wrote the paper precisely and uh he he explored that idea and um so it would be something he would think of definitely and it is u what he's talking about in the paper I would assume is an intervention in the process of the collapse of wave function by this other presence that alters the way the

wave function function collapses when we So fascinating. Yeah. Now, that would also explain, and I take this extremely seriously because I think we're talking about something real. You understand? I I respect this this this belief. I think this paper existed. Maybe it still does. And it's why when people are all angry about, you know, the government won't disclose and so forth, I say, "Wait a minute." And they

say, "Well, we're ready." And I say, "No, we're not. We don't because you say we're ready for it, but we don't know what it is." That's right. And therefore, we are not ready. And here's the problem. And I wrote a short story about this about Bon Norman's death called the open doors about his fear that this is a door which opens in the mind and in the perceptual system and can never be

So once the door is open once we have accepted them into our reality we can never get rid of them. We can never tell them, "No, it turns out we don't want you here because we don't like you and we don't like what you're doing to us. We can't do that." The door opens only once and only in one direction and Now, if that isn't a motive to to hide this, to keep it secret, people scorn the call in a leaf. They say, "Well,

they think it's demons and we're supposed to ignore demons and that's why they do." It might go a little deeper than that. It might be that this is a time right now where we have to be very careful about preserving our dominion of our reality and to think of this in some new ways. What do we do right now if we are going to let them into our reality? And I think ultimately we have to, but on our terms,

they cannot come into and take our reality. We we must not lose dominion. This is what my new book is basically about. And I don't want to I'm not flacking my book here, but it does it has come up. Well, how do how do we maintain sovereignty while letting them in? Because we have to understand their motives and their functionality, their physical functionality, their motives, uh their understanding of themselves. And we have to even if it's

not necessarily a completely correct conclusion factually, we have to come to a decision about what we want them to be in our reality. And this has but got to be a decision that is so deep that it is below the level of ordinary discourse in a deeper level of consciousness which is the level of consciousness which vonoman was talking about when he was talking about the the way perception collapses

the wave function. It's at that point that we control this. That's Yeah. I mean, so this brings this interesting question up philosophically of like we all three of us probably at this table like are somewhat more pro the re-enchantment of the world or anti- kind of materialist reductionism. This idea that you know everything's kind of happening randomly and lacks meaning. But once you kind of let that in your

life, the idea that you know maybe there is a hierarchy of being, maybe humans aren't at the top of it, maybe things are way more magical than they seem, it is a Pandora's box. And um the the farther and deeper you get kind of onlogically, you know, as far as kind of chasing truth, the more evil you have to face and fight as well. And so um how do you ensure that human consciousness raises kind of commensurately with our you know unveiling you know Well, that gets me to a story of

something that happened to me in the before any of this was in my life. But other people already knew it would be apparently. I went but my wife was a very social person and she had lots of friends in New York and uh uh we went to a lot of parties. I was even invited to some of the parties but told don't be depressing or I'll throw you out and you'll have to go home alone. In any case, um, uh, at this party there was this lady who wanted to sit with me and

talk with me. She said, "Mr. Whitley," she talked with an accent. "Let's sit down over here." And we sat down. And she said, "I want to tell you my story. My story is this. I was working. I was doing the magical working, she said, in a in Poland in the 1930s and we pushed away the dark side. We had made extraordinary progress in animating a glam,

but we absolutely walled off the dark side which kept trying to enter our working in different ways. Suddenly across the river there burst tanks death's heads on their on their caps. And we realized that we had forced the

dark side to come in on its own and it had broken down the door. This woman walked from Poland to China over the next six years and the there was still an American presence in China when she arrived and General Stillwell got her to the United States where she

uh the commu the same community that she was in in Poland which had moved to United States. It is terribly important that we understand what the dark side is and not say it's demons and we don't want it. We push it away. We have to understand that it's the wellspring of knowledge and we have to we have to take care with it. I mean you you don't you do not dance with the tiger but you

respect the tiger's presence in the world. So, how how do you do that? Because you've said on record many times, you think you are where you are as far as your worldview because your curiosity trumps your fear. It does. I know that for sure. On the one hand, you have all these myths like, you know, the philosophers stone or the holy grail or, you know, you're seeking truth and you find it and you realize it's within or something and the outer is the inner. You know, the uh uh Sedartha, you know, you have all these stories like that kind of hero's journey. And then you also have stories

like Foust and Prometheus of going for the forbidden truth for for the knowledge and then getting burned. And so how do you tow that line? Well, the first thing we have to do is to understand that all of us contain bow. All of us are Prometheus and we always will be. That's called being human. And the best way to do this is to fully embrace in our deepest

hearts the honest truth about our It's dark side and its light side. We all want to be good people. But that's not all we are. Not one of us. That's not our nature. Our nature is to our nature is to be sentimental about the good but enjoy the bad and the dark. And that is look the whole the whole

expression of rock and roll is about that. It is an incredibly important expression a new kind of expression of the human spirit. So I love it so much. Although I don't have the ears for it anymore. Unfortunately I have to ear plugs when I go to concerts. Who's your Who's your favorite? I'm not going to get into that. I don't think I don't want to go down the rock and roll road. We'll be here doing that all day and your your your fans will sing, "Why did you talk about rock and roll for two hours? Come on." They want to know the real Whitley. Well, no, the real Whitley is actually

also a huge classical music fan and an opera fan. So, I'm a real culture vulture on many different levels. Yeah. What do you think, speaking of the dark side, you obviously experienced this famous, you know, abduction, if you will, in 1985. Prior to that, you had a very interesting childhood, and you hint at possibly having undergone secret experiments. You grew up next to Randolph Air Force Base. Oh, yeah. Well, something happened, and I know let's go back to that. Um, in I

mean, let's go back there in time. I'm not saying let's return to it later. I'm sorry. Here's what happened as far as I can put it together. First of all, I was 7 years old when this happened. So therefore, my memories of it are very confused and very sparse. But I have a very close friend who grew we grew up together in Texas. And like a lot of Texas families, our family connection probably goes back to before the Civil War. Family friendships in the South are quite common. And we're still closest

friends. He's my closest friend in the world. He is very high up in this world in a completely different area from anything remotely connected. Is it science or is it No, it's it's another another [clears throat] area. It's something to do with government. And but we are, you know, we we we spend every New Year's together. I'll be with him in a and his wife in a few weeks and week and a half. um he was also recruited and when I told him the story

he's known all he's read all of my books in manuscript he's knows all the story backwards and forwards and uh you you you'd laugh if you saw how very different his place in the world is from mine and we keep our friendship secret I'm not going to don't bother probe about it because I won't I won't go there because we have to not because we want to because we have to so in any case he remembers he was nine and I was seven. I don't remember anything about

than he said but that was this is I think it's logical extrapolation and they asked about the program and he remembers them saying that it involved the use of a Skinner box which I would assume my parents had no idea what that was but his parents did know and they said no this was a box that a person was put in. So, be real for the context for the audience. Um, the BF Skinner was a mid-century psychologist that, uh,

worked on kind of behavioral conditioning. So, um, you know, how do you honestly often manipulate biological systems to like do certain things over and over? You ring a bell or what? You It's kind of like Aval's dog sort of thing. Yeah. Well, it was repetitive learning is what it was. Trapped in a room in a little box with repetitive learning. All I remember is a dark place I couldn't get out of and noise, horrible noise. I don't remember any repetitive learning. That's all I remember. In any case,

come October, this started in um August of 1952. Come October, I began to get sick constantly. I couldn't I was getting one cold and s. So my mother takes me to the doctor. It turns out I have no immune system. It's broken. Gone. It's broken So, they take me out of the program. I don't even remember any of this. I was told this. I I don't I wasn't told. My mother never told me anything about the program, but I surmise I was taken out

of it because the next thing I do remember very vividly is I end up at Brook General Hospital. little seven-year-old thin little seven-year-old boys being in a isolated in a room and given gamaglobulin shots and by these doctors who you know these huge needles I mean this is the early 50s right needles are like gigantic and these huge needles are coming at me and they would get so nervous the needle would go through my arm and the stuff would drip down my chest. It was just

And then after a few days, I'm taken home. I can't see anybody. I'm fed I'm I can't I'm isolated until after Christmas. I go back to school finally in January. My mother kept my report card. It said absent due to illness. Absent due to illness semester month after month all of her life. and we found it in her personal effects after

she passed. And I said to my sister, I want that report card. And she said, "Sure, I'll give it to you." She destroyed it instead. And I said, "Why did you do that? I wanted them." And she wouldn't say anything about it. She said, "Ridley, I just did it." What does your instinct tell you on what the Skinner box and these experiments were for? Were they to make you a high performer? No, they were to crack the cosmic egg,

I think. So, kind of liberate the soul from the body and light astral travel or No, because the visitors showed up a couple of years later or right then maybe right even then. I mean, and I think that that's the was the purpose to and I think that to make you a receptor as strong as I think that this started. Now I'll tell you what I have surmised and I can't prove this. I think it started at Dhaka. I think it started in the camps and I think that

children who were being gassed sometimes after the gassing they weren't there anymore. everyone, you know, the people would all rush into the center of the thing and try to go up because the gas was low and they would die in these pyramids of humanity. uh all of them clawing for the ceiling and the children would always be at the bottom crushed flat like bugs and um sometimes you the the Nazis kept

extremely careful records and sometimes I suspect some of those children weren't there and that noise I remember from those box that box I think that's the sound recorded of the screaming from inside the they were trying to duplicate the conditions of the gas chamber to see if they could induce this power in another in in in highly intelligent. What's the So the kids weren't there

I don't know they disappeared they went into another reality. So, I know you've worked with Peter Levvena. He wrote a book called Unholy Alliance, right? It's getting into really speculative territory that I I don't I don't personally feel high conviction in, but I'm curious to get your take on, which is that, you know, the Nazis somehow allied themselves with an unholy force of non-human intelligence. I don't even want to go down that path. I don't feel a level of conviction about it either. I think the Nazis were just shits. But Lenda also helped you uncover

that some of these experiments might have been post operation paperclip Nazi experiments of some of these Germans coming over. Operation Paperclip people apparently lived in my neighborhood. Yeah. And my father was on a big house on the hill and then across the street a couple houses down is an FBI agent and his wife and then the street over there's these scientists. So God knows what that's all about. I had no idea. And then I'm going

out to Randolph every Thursday night for um for these things. And uh and then that ends and you know I sort of go back to living a normal kid life. I have a wonderful childhood. It's almost that made me think is there something about inducing such a high state of human suffering that opens a crack in the same way that an immense amount of love and like focused intention can also open you know cracks open something in in our

fields that allows you know someone who's thinking of you with a lot of love allows you to maybe feel that yeah you I think you might be on the right track I think that's exactly what it was about and even when I think about idea of angels and demons for one force is like exploiting human potential and and humanity to like the the most that they can. And then the other forces there's like a levitate like a they're trying to levitate levitate or or elevate the the the just the way we think and the way we act

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today's episode of American Alchemy. Well, I started to have weird experiences in my childhood after this and uh I had a normal childhood and the weird experiences were very I remember an incident, two incidents. I remember an incident of my father taking me out to the country house and in the middle of the night. It was cold so it must have been the winter and um this car showed up with these glowing lights

that didn't shine and came rushing down the road and stopped in front of the house very abruptly like it was not a normal car. And then the next thing I knew, this object that was squared off came tumbling across the sky and went into the back pasture behind the house. And it was back there glowing. And I tried to talk to my dad and he was just standing there. He wouldn't he couldn't move or didn't move. And then I felt like I needed to go find

out what was going on. And I went out toward the back pasture and that's all I And then the other incident was very weird. Suddenly one afternoon, my mother and father gathered up my then baby brother and my sister and they all went to the country house leaving me at home with my dog alone at a age of 11 without ex, you know. Mother said, "Well, just call us if you need

like a dinner and you know a life and you know not being left in the house alone in scary night by myself. Yeah. So after a while I eventually I mean I made a dinner probably peanut butter sandwich or something and I went to watch a little TV and then went up to bed to find I had an air conditioner. This is house was too old to have been centrally air conditioned. And there was a window air conditioner that looked out

on a window and there was a lower roof behind that beyond that window and u the window above above the sash above the air conditioner was sealed and it had been pulled down and the seal was all hanging loose and I could see it was obvious that it was just little past dusk there was someone on the roof and so I went down and called the country house and my mother answered and she said, "Well, if there's someone on the

roof, telephone the police." Does you see how strange this all is? Yeah. She I She didn't come rushing home. Did Exactly. Or why did they go in the first place? So your your dad must have had some involvement in I mean he must have. So you must have speculated, you know, if he was this highranking army officer who he probably had clearances, right? But I don't know. I no he listen he would tell you mother said well he found apartments for for uh or uh GI

uh uh the wives of GIs who were abroad. And then he if you asked him what he did during the war he said well I just used to pick up cigarette butts at Fort Sam Houston and keep the keep the place clean. And so, you know, I have no idea what he did. You're pretty sure that's not true. I have a feeling somehow he didn't pick up cigarette butts. Yeah. Yeah. And And what what was his name? His first is Carl Streer. K A R. Okay. And um

so but getting back to this uh uh the but I you know there was no 9/11 in those days and I didn't know how to call the police. So I'm got the phone book. There's a man on in a house upstairs could come in the house at any moment. And I'm looking in the front of the phone book for the local the Terrell Hills local police. I finally find the

I call them and the lady answers and you know we only had like three cops. It was a small community, a bedroom suburb of San Antonio, but an independent city. Save on taxes. And uh a cop comes. I know the cop. I know all the cops. All the kids do. It's not, you know, it's a very small scale deal. He he parks it down at the front of the h. It's a a halfacre front lawn with big

huge hedge like 60t tall August hedge and a a bower kind of at the and he comes through and I see him coming out coming up out of the shadows and he's got his gun out like this. He's coming to the house with his gun in his hands and it scared the hell out of me. You know what did he know that I didn't know? And so he comes in the house and I say he's up on the roof and he goes running upstairs. Seconds later he comes running down

yelling, "There's no one there. There's no one there." He runs down to his car, gets in it, and drives off. That was it. Then what happens to me? I actually don't know. The rest of the night, I don't remember a thing about it. I remember my parents and my sister coming home the next morning. It was a beautiful morning. I came home at about 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock before noon because I had breakfast lunch with them. I had made my own breakfast. I remember

That's the story. And you're still in communication with the NHI. Is that right? As of as of Yes. It's part of my It's a an NH nonhuman intelligence. I am in communication with something. Do they manifest themselves as grays for you or No, not often. Once in a counsel, I want you to a come in front of the

cameras. I've got two different camera systems in the house. I've been I've been trying to get pictures of them since the 80s. Do you have any? No, I do. I have very little stuff. a few things. Um, uh, they got pissed off at me a couple of years ago and there they all these explosions, strange explosions got picked up, uh, as a result of that and on the cameras and um, I've got that and they like me to

wake up at 3:00 in the morning to immune I guess and uh, is it a specific time? Well, it's an hour according if it's if I'm right about what it is. There's a an ancient yogic tradition of Brahma Maherta time. The time you you're looking you're nodding your head. Yeah. Yeah. Because in Islam, it's also you there's like a in a lot of religions that time is is is like very sacred. You do commune with God like the the highest uh the highest um yeah in Islam the

prayer that you do around that time is the one where where you're supposedly closest to God. And I think it has something to do with actually like uh having gone to Joe Despensza retreat, he there was a whole thing around like melatonin being uh there's something mystical about that we still don't understand about how melatonin makes the uh makes the brain makes the brain act when we're asleep. And that's why some of his meditation you'd make you wake up during that time. Well, I wake up during that time every

night. every every single night and in fact for years after my wife passed away back in the 90s. Well, what is Burma specific between three and four or is it Well, it's you know the interesting thing was that it is supposed to be an hour and a half or an hour and 30 minutes before dawn. And so that's why I, you know, at first they would wake me up physically. They would blow in my face. I would get a little kiss. Um, I wrote a poem. I have a book of poems out

called The Hidden Garden, which has been read by I think 12 people and another 14 people listen to the audio book. But, you know, poetry is not Go out and check out Whitley's poetry. Come on. Yeah, do it folks. Do check out. It's nice. Anyway, I wrote a poem about this experience and and uh and it was not an unpleasant experience. you know, you get to the point where you have to learn something about sleep, healthy sleep, or you're going to go crazy getting waked

up at that hour every night. And, you know, they do not they do not stop. Uh uh so after she passes back in the ' 90s, there was a period of time where they waking me up at that hour. Then we lost the cabin. and we leave the cabin uh and that doesn't happen. Then she gets ill and she passes on and few days after she passes on it starts again.

They start waking me up at 3:00 in the around that time and it becomes a very big part of my life. Very important because I can feel the communing going on. I can feel it really intensely and part of it is involved seems to be involved with my wife and other dead people and the dead and the aliens are kind of all Do you think you know we talk about the communion of the saints in Christianity do you think that it's somewhat similar

where where you're communing with it feels incredibly sacred it's something I would not I I every once in a while I I don't do it because what happened At first, for the first five years from 19 2015 until 2020, they woke me up religiously every night. Then they [clears throat] began to not necessarily wake me up every night, but I was expected to wake myself up. And I found that out the hard way as I decided, well, they're not waking me up so I can sleep all night. That wasn't

the idea. Do you get any messages from them Oh, God. And I've written all my books since 2015 have been written based on What are some what are some big recurring themes as far as messages you're supposed to get out to humanity from them? you see are two things. One is we are

more than physical creatures. And two is we have value, more value than we ourselves recognize. We are very very valuable and extraordinary beings. We're not the lesser. We are our own in our own way. We are another masterpiece of the universe. And you can see that that's the arc. If there's any arc in that in those books, that's the ark. And it comes up very strongly in the new book

which is basically about empowerment. Do you because I read your book on Jesus actually. And he did. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah, of course. I thought it was great. And it definitely has like gnostic underpinnings around your view of Jesus that he uh ascended to, you know, in traditional Christianity he he he was a son of God. He was also godlike. But I think you view him as possibly one of many. And so going to your point about humans generically speaking being more

special or more godlike, is that would you would that be your sort of worldview that we're capable of coming to deity that because we are we're not like the angels and the perhaps the demons uh we don't have to be anything. We can take a the we have that freedom to take a journey and the grays do not have that They know too much to have that kind of

this path that they've hit this sort of culde-sac and so they know too much and they're trying to come back to warn us to inflect in some sort of more godly way or something and to also enjoy communing with us because when they are in communion with you they are experiencing time the same way you do. Everything is new. How do you discern between good and bad in that scenario where if you do think that this is some sort of parallel or alternate timeline? What if it's bad entities and they're

trying to ensure that their own sustenance and through trickery and You have to you have to be your own best counsel, your own wisest counsel. You have to live a good life. Uh kindness and not lying are two very important things. Of course, we all lie and we're all unkind. And everyone sees says hears me say that and they immediately go to all the things they did, all the unkind things they did and all the lies they've

told. And so do I. The same thing. But we have these choices. Human beings can make choices that they can't make. It's too late for the grace. They know too much. They can't make choices. Do you think they do exist on some sort of timeline where something happened? Like the classic speculation about the grays would be like they are the victims of some sort of nuclear holocaust or cataclysm cataclysm. They lost the melanin in their skin because the atmosphere is sort of, you know, blocking the sun, you know, due to due

to nuclear debris or whatever. Do do you believe that or or any sort of specific version of of who they are, where they're coming from? well, I know now that we have bodies here that we have biologists have studied here and that those studies are ended. I don't know if they I hope they still have the bodies because, you know, they they those studies were never released and they're done in secret and there's probably a lot of biology still

to be done on those bodies if they would ever be brought out into the public space in science which would be wonderful. But so we have bodies but but I'll tell you a few things about these bodies. One is they are a mix of not exactly machinery. That's too putting it too far, but they they um

like biological replicas of some sorts. They're like something somebody built. Some somebody with a certain amount of skill in in in genetics built these. but not not unlimited skill because they're not uh all that, you know, there's things about them that don't work very Yeah. I mean, and then I also thought that like if you're going to if you're going to engineer a being that kind of looks like like a frail small like

well you you you get back to the hybrids which are they are they are engineered and they are very fluently telepathic but they are also unvoiced and they are extremely autistic. And if you go online and Spotify or Apple Podcast or somewhere, you can find a a podcast called the Telepathy Tapes. Taking over by storm right now. Yeah, it's amazing. I just interviewed

Kai and Dr. Powell actually. Oh, you did? I'm going to interview Kai uh in a few a few days actually. I I discovered this and the second I discovered it, I realized how important it was. I'm glad it's come up. But these people are unvoiced and autistic. Now I have friends who are telepathic and are not unvoiced. And I think there may be some people in

working with with the in the IC and probably other intelligence communities around the world who are telepathic and not on and not and voiced. Yeah. But in any case, uh, one of the my friends who's telepathic recently had a contact with an unvoiced person who was shocked because she she he wasn't used to having a, you know, another telepath around and he and she had to really calm him down. They were but uh and said, "Don't worry about

it. I'm I'm not going to do anything. I'm just here. You know, I can't help it either." So, um, but I Kai is a lovely Yeah, she's awesome. Yeah. And I think really in this for the right reasons. And, uh, for context for the audience, the number four podcast in the country right now, which is absolutely wild. Kai Dickens is this amazing filmmaker. She was rejected by all these, you know, production houses as far as making this into a, you know, larger documentary and just kind of DIY style recorded this. It's she's found all these non-verbal autistic children who were formerly

being studied by this Harvard neuroscientist, a woman named Dr. Diane Powell. And it's really remarkable. You have these kids being put in, you know, their parents are put in one room, kid is put in the other room, the parent sees a random image generated on an iPad or a TV or whatever out of, you know, a thousand or 10,000 images, and the kid guesses what their parent is looking at with almost 100% accuracy, 95% plus accuracy. And so it's it moves cuz all

of these studies in the parasychology world of mind over matter or whatever have traditionally been super weak. you need extremely large amounts of data and cohorts and you end up in these endless arguments because people are too lazy to actually look at the data, right? And in this case, you have conclusive data and all these kids are spiritually while physically they're, you know, non-verbal. They're seen as totally maladjusted, you know, whatever. Spiritually, they seem far more evolved than all of us. They meet up on the hill together and they hang out and they talk

about God constantly and the kingdom of heaven and they seem to have faith in some sort of higher world that we all just they do have limited access to and kindness and truthtelling are essential in that and they're so they know every they know languages better than the Spanish teacher without having learned it. It's it's absolutely amazing. Sorry. Yeah, they are. And it's, you know, it it gets me to the hybrids who are I don't know. I know a few of them and I

And I'm sorry. It's real. It's real. The te telepathy is very real. Do you think any of the hybrids are functional human beings that are walking Not that I have met. Uh and and they also all smoke all the time. And why do they do that? Well, I I went to this into this very extensively. I spoke to a psychiatrist who specializes in treating schizophrenics, and he really solved it for me. He said, "Skizophrenics smoke

not to suppress the voices in their heads, but to smooth out the the nicotine, smooths out the the uh emotions. It it it calms you. And the hybrids smoke all the time. They never stop. All the time. And you know, in this society, you know, in Santa Monica is practically has a no smoking sign on the city on the

on the boundaries of the city. I mean, this is not a place where you smoke very comfortably anywhere. And so, you know, they're very isolated and they're very unhappy and they're not they're poor. And I'm hoping and this seems to me to be completely impossible. I'm hoping that we will be able to reach out to them in some way and bring them into society because we've got wonderful people, human, regular people, caring good people who can help them. Have you

ever read the uh sci-fi novel Childhoods End by? I certainly have. [clears throat] So in that book, as you know, there are the overlords, these sort of cosmic hosts, if you will, that are attempting to make contact with mankind, right? They do it through this cadre of telepathic And these telepathic children are sort of the Paul River, if you will, of humanity that are starting, you know, this this communications channel to this higher higher kind of Borglike being. What do you think of that? Do you think

that's that that that's a case of fiction becoming reality or he he was obviously a very extraordinary He was f Arthur C. Clark was Fascinating man. He was probably MI6. Oh, probably. Yeah. He lived in Sri Lanka. He he wrote a book about a portal in Sri Lanka on the top of a mountain. And now I'm You have to speculate that he actually thought that there was one or something. Well, of course he did. I'm sure he did. Yeah. [laughter] I had the strangest experience with him. Um I had a friend uh Mike Smith when I was living in

London. He was also an American and he was a very good artist and in those days the English were easily fooled by fake credentials. So he made some fake credentials for a paper called the Chicago citizen which didn't even exist. And we used to use these credentials to get into places we didn't belong like ask at opening day and the premiere of of uh which is 2001 was Space Odyssey. Yeah. Arthur C. Clark's the movie the

Yeah. Arthur C. Clark Stanley Kubri based on actually a novel by Arthur C. Clark called The Sentinel. Right. So Arthur C. Clark is there. I end up sitting beside Arthur C. Clark in in the No way. I'm telling you the truth. That's crazy. And so, you know, I'm very quiet, of course, because I don't want to I don't want to get thrown out. And I don't think it'd be too long before another American's going to understand realize that I'm there based on complete And [laughter] so, uh, I'm sitting there or you were meant to be there, maybe. And I asked afterwards, he turns

to me. He introduces himself. I was as if I didn't know who he was and I tell him my name and he said, "Well, why are you here?" And he said, I said, "Well, I'm from the Chicago Citizen." The Chicago Citizen? He says, I said, "Yeah, it's a newspaper." Oh. He says, "Well, what do you think? Are you going to write a review?" He says, I said, "Yes, I'm going to write a review." And I'm in the review, I'm going to say that you are a genius. And he says, "Well, you better say Stanley's a genius, too." Wow. Oh,

she goes, "In space there is no love, but down here there there is." And I I I remember so viscerally watching that for the first time and and that resonating on such a deep soul level that and and of course you can make the case that it's wishful faking. Of course, I want to feel special as a human and I want to feel like we have something here that doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe. But there is something so profound that anybody that has experienced like a love and

and a sense of yeah anyone that that just experienced love you can really you feel the transcendence of that. I mean the most popular film for the past past decade was about like transcendence of love interstellar. So like the whole thing was about was was about that. So and and it and you could see how like it's almost like uh right now is the 10th it's the 10th year anniversary and and the people are talking back about the film because people are watching for the first time. Big fans are watching again and and it and the convergence of even that I was

talking to Jess about a couple days ago. It feels so every just everything feels like it's making sense for the moment that we're living right now on like uh in the way people are in the the drones popping up on people thinking more about space with SpaceX landing you know a tower from coming coming from space back on onto Earth. I really do think that we have something so profound here that we have to preserve that we have to gather around to like as you said really understand what is it that makes us who we are what it makes it what is it that

makes us makes them who they are and uh and so that they are here based on our terms. We know that we're not they're not going to be the overlords that we have to like submit our entire sovereignty to just because they're a higher form of intelligence. 2025 is about figuring out how to live together and that does not mean we are going to have to accept overlords. If that's all we can manage, they don't want to be here. Maybe our current reality is more governed by

entities than we realize. Like where do thoughts even come from? And so I I do I think there's kind of this perspective of like, you know, one of my favorite quotes is this Eden Phil pots. Uh, the universe is full of magical things waiting, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. And um, that's a wonderful quote. That's a wonderful quote. And there's maybe some strata of beings that are waiting for us to ascend in to their level to truly, you know, communicate at par with them. And then there may be some other beings that

if you're not aware of them, probably have more insidious control of your life right now. Yeah. And so like it it brings up all these sort of kind of epistemic ontological questions. When you're daydreaming, why are you thinking what you're thinking? You're not consciously constructing those thoughts. They're sort of entering your mind as if it's this antenna receptacle. And so then then you have to ask what's on the, you know, sending end of that. And you know, well, on that point, I feel like we jumped straight into the communication with the NHI, but we're not we we miss

we didn't talk about the implant and the fact that there's something in your body that you uh believe is an implant. I feel like if you Yeah, you had you can touch it. You can't I don't think you touch it if you want to. I feel like two years I can give you a CT scan of it if you want. Okay. Was it weird if I touch it or is No, it's fine. Doesn't matter. It might be a little hot cuz it's been working. Right here. Uh 2 3 years ago if you had if you had told someone. Go ahead and touch it. Don't be scared. Here. Here.

Oh my god. Yeah. That is Can you Can you touch it? I I'll I'll come touch it. But I want to finish this point because I feel like that's also normal tissue. Yeah. No. I mean, there's the CT scan, a video of there's a video of the surgeon trying to remove it and the thing moving at its own like it's down into my earlobe. And it just like goes down and I remember watching that. I guess it went under. But that's the hard part. It disappeared again.

It's actually moving now. It went under. Uh it's on the run. I'm kind of guess cuz I could see it just bright as day and now it's uh I don't see it. Am I going to have weird effects now that I No, not at all. [laughter] Listen, it's been in this the whole It's part of this conversation, you know, it's been its gotten hot and cold. Hot and cold all through the conversation of the implant. Really? Yeah. It's You think it's how you communicate with the beings? No, no, it's it's I work with it. In other words, I can interrogate the

implant while I'm talking. But you've had it was humans gave you that humans. Men in black style. We This is something we haven't touched on yet is the human level of this. And I can tell you a lot about the implant and a um uh and and what it does because I've learned about this from I was taught this by a couple of people who came into the house. But let me just back up to

the time it was put in. Somewhere in one of my books, it says it was 1992 it was put in. That's a copy editing error. It was May of 1989 and I was in bed in the cabin and Annne was asleep at about 11:00 at night. I was still reading and just about to go to sleep. The cabin is looks out on the swimming pool in the back. I I had so much money then I I I really wish I hadn't been

What happened? Uh did you see Beyond the MGM thing? the part of the episode three, it goes into South Park slampooning me and all the beating up I took. And eventually people people will buy a book from somebody who's controversial, but they're not going to. It's easier now, but in those days when you had to go into a bookstore to buy a book, you're not going to buy a book by somebody who's a laughingstock and being laughed at. And it torpedoed my career,

wiped me out, and I went on this long, agonizing decline that ended with the loss of the cabin and eventual bankruptcy. And it was just a disaster. So, man, sort of sort of knocking along right now. I don't have much money, but you know, I don't need much money. And I'm I I can't I don't trust the publishing industry not to get into bed with the defense department. And I'm well aware of the fact that there are

people in the defense department who do not like me and do not want my work out Why don't they like you? [snorts] Ask them. Ask the Collins elite why they're scared of witness. They really don't like you. The Collins They do not. They think I'm in league with demons because they are simple people who are way behind the they're behind the eightball and behind the I want to get back to your implant, but really quick with the cons elite, this is this evangelical Christian group that like is cited by Lu Alzando and other kind of disclosure advocates as being

anti-disclosure because they think this is all demonic and so it can't be scientifically studied. We shouldn't even look at it. And a lot of them were actually looking at the phenomena at I think as a part of this program called stack five at Wright airfield. And then they came out of of that study with the conclusion this is written about by Nick Redford in his book final events that this is all demonic. We shouldn't look at it. We should look away. But I I I've never heard the Collins elite well characterized by anybody. Like who are

they? Are they they're still operational and like what do they what do they want to do? Uh I well early in the CIA, right? They were sort of No, it was Air Force as far as I know. And um I I don't want to go down that path because um if you look at Beyond and the episode three and you see what happened to me and what it did to my life and it's got something to do with them. I'm convinced. And uh because they they there's a lot

the intelligence community does way more social engineering in this country than you can than it should or should even be legally allowed to do. The CIA stays out of that because it's not allowed to propagandize the American people. But I think there's lots of workarounds with other alphabet agencies. Yeah. Air Force office special investigations and Yeah. And the connection between some important aspects of the of the old media and those uh organizations is very profound.

Very dangerous. So it's 1989. Okay. The implant. Yeah. Let's get back to the fun stuff. I don't like to talk about that other stuff because there's not a lot I can do about it and it I have been beaten to death by them. So, and maybe I'll just finish the point when you were touching the internet. Now, people can accept that story given, you know, Lou's uh Lu Alzando's uh testimony and him even bringing it on on News Nation and talking about it. But I feel like uh yeah, probably the time you were telling people that you have an implant, people probably thought

you were just nuts because like what? Well, not really because actually you had a video. Yeah. Well, no. initial anybody can if they were in this room it'd feel your ear. I don't know what that is, man. I mean, that is like not Well, you can look at the video and uh it's in a number of documentaries and somewhere on my website, too. My website's too big and I can't honestly say where very easily, but uh you see the doctor try to remove it. You see, he says my wife sees it. She's right there.

Oh, that's a white thing. She says it's a white disc because one like a little tiny white disc. I mean I got I got a little piece on and the doctor doctor was such a cute sweet guy. That's it. I'm not going to do anymore. But he didn't know anything about any any implants. And I I had said to me from the beginning, you're not getting it removed. You're not getting it removed. Then it's 1994

or six I believe it was and we lost the cabin. We're living in a little condo in San Antonio and we meet this guy and we talk and you know he's interested in community and stuff and I decide I'm going to see if I can get around an and see cuz I'm very curious about I'd love to see this implant. It's not really working at that time. It's not essential to me at all. So I say to him, "By the way, uh, I've got this little cyst." And she bristles. I said, "On my ear." Would

you feel that? He feels it. He says, "Yeah, it's just a little cyst. You want me to pull it off? Pop it off?" I said, "Yeah, I would." Said, "Sure. Come over to my office at uh tomorrow morning at Saturday morning at 10:00 and I'll do it at home." Man says, "You know, I'm sick and tired. You You This is your chance. We're going to have a big fight unless you promise me absolutely on your honor never to try again. I say, "Okay, I figure I've got her. I'm going to get

the video you can see he gets sort of still and it's real he's realizing ing. He said later that I realized I was trying to take out an alien implant. And he says, "Um, well, I I'd have to take your whole ear off. I pull out." Wow. It was then two days pass and the ear burns like hell. I think my ears caught on fire and it goes up back under the skin to this place. Do you have any sense of what it's made

out of? They got a sliver of it at the doctor's office. He sent it to the lab in under ordinary circumstances. I receive a telephone call from Dr. William Malow, the head of material science at Southwest Research in San Antonio, which was found founded by a family friend. Is that is that's Texas&M

or No, that's No, it's not&M. No, this is different. This is a private foundation founded by Tom Slick, San Antonio man. In back in the 50s and Bill is his head of material science and has been since the beginning of the foundation at that And somehow or another it went to a lab to a regular ordinary lab. The doctor just sent it to a lab. But I don't get he doesn't get a report from the lab. I get a call from Bill Malow about it. So

that's gone from the lab to Southwest Research which is 50% 54 or 45% funded by the CIA. Bill says, "I've got your piece of your sliver of the implant." And he [clears throat] says a metal metallic base febrow motion moving uh uh celia coming

off of it. And then the doctor calls me all excited cuz the the uh lab tech has seen it and told him the same thing. And I guess the lab tech sent it to Southwest for that reason because it was so unusual. A lot of these things are reported as moving under their own metabolism or containing some sort of I studied a lot of them with Bill. I mean, Bill and I became close friends and we studied lots of the ones that Roger Lear was producing from here in LA from the surgeries he did. And we found

one that was remarkable. when it was in C2 in the person's neck, it was emitting an a radio signal. And I'll get to the radio signal in this in a minute. Do you think that so yours? It does. Yeah, I can tell you about it. Can he measure the radio signal? Cuz I I just interviewed Bob Maguire whose girlfriend uh has an implant and he put like an RF detector over her head and can like measure the frequency coming out. And so do do you do you do things like that? We Let's not forget what I was just

going to say. Yeah. Uh but yeah, here's what happened. At one point, it used to in the old days that when it turned on, my ear would turn bright red. It was very not I would hear a noise in my head. It was trying to to reach to to communicate with me and failing. And that's why it was like that. But I didn't know that at the time. So I'm in Bill's office. We're talking about it and suddenly he says, "Your ear is turning bright red." I said, "I hear it, Bill. It's on. He said, "Let's go." We

run across the campus to a signals acquisition lab. We get in the lab. I sit on a stool in the middle and there got all this stuff going on. And after about 10 minutes, it's cold now. And it turns off. And the lab guys say, "We've got a signal, but we can't tell you anything about it because the lab's classified." So I think I you know I say to Bill I want to know

the signal. He said well we'll send you some information. Of course they never do. Um then the piece of the implant disappears from his office or is sent off to some other lab. I mean I don't they were they were about 60% they they were not totally reliable. Let me put it that way for me. They were not telling me everything by any means. 20 plus plus years pass. I'm doing a book signing in San Antonio. All of a sudden, two guys walk up.

They say, "We want you to know, Whitley, I one of them says, "I was one of the technicians who was who acquired the signal, and it is the strangest signal we've ever acquired, and it's still under study." And they turn around and walk out, gone. I never see them again. I have tried every kind of RF meter there is to get that pick up that signal. I've had PAM operators and all kinds of people try to we can't pick up a sign. You know what you should do? Use a

quantum inferometer. I wonder if that's what they used at that lab. I I don't know what they have in a classified signals acquisition lab. Well, the reason I say that is Yeah, maybe I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. [laughter] I don't know. Maybe we should change the subject. So, in 1989, in 1989, um, this implant is is put in your ear. Okay, here's what happens. I'm lying in bed. I'm breathing. The

be gunned up at all times." I mean, just face it. Uh, so, uh, I start to go for the I have a bank of switches on the on the bedside that I can turn them all on at once and completely flood the whole area with flood lights. They're still on the cabin, by the way. That's all still there, although I don't own the cabin. It's owned by a wonderful family, thank God. And they let me come up, so and bring friends occasionally. Anyway, I go for the switches, but as I'm turning, I

see a woman standing at near the foot of the bed. She's already in the room and a man beside her. And I hear a voice in the backyard, male voice, go, "Condition red." And then they run forward and instead of going for the lights, I don't care about the lights anymore. I'm going for the shotgun. The next thing I know, I'm lying on my right side in the bed. I cannot see. I cannot move. and powerful hand is pushing my head down into the

pillow in kind of wave motion and the woman's voice is speaking very gently and softly like you know it's okay it's okay just relax and etc and so the moment after this happens the pressure is off I start to turn and get out of the bed as I do that there's a big flash of light crashing in the woods and I end up sitting on the bedside.

There's nobody in the room anymore. The LEDs on the alarm system are still armed So, I grab the pistol. I go around the whole house, even up in the attic, in the basement, everywhere, looking for a point of entry, and there isn't one. I end up sitting on the bedside. What in And I knew all about lucid dreams. And I could hardly believe that was a lucid dream. It was too lucid.

Finally, I sort of lie in bed all night kind of like this, you know, waiting for the dawn. And I tell Ann the story, and I said, I just don't know what to make of it because there's no evidence whatsoever of this. Then I go out to get the paper, which entails going out, opening the door into the garage, turning off the alarm system, which is still on, and getting in the car, opening the garage door, and driving down about a mile away to get the paper. I love the paper. I still I still read actual physical papers, in fact, the

times in the New York Times. And um when I open the door into the garage, the garage door is wide open, but it's alarmed. It's part of the system. And the switch is obviously completely tripped. And the LEDs are right there, bright red. And so I disarm it and I keep going. I get into the car and I'm starting to go down anyway to get them. I'm sort of on semi semi-automatic

pilot. I'm just getting out of bed and I haven't slept. The car is full of static. It's like, you know, shocking my hands when I try to the steering wheel. I think, "Holy God, the car is going to blow up." I jump out of the car and [clears throat] I go in. I said, "Anne, there's something's going on. It was real. They someone came into the house and they didn't trip the alarm system." And she says, "Well, that I explained about the garage." I said, "Well, call the guy." I forgot his name, the alarm guy. So I call him, he comes over and he

says there was a very strong magnetic field there and it's not my equipment. All I can do is it the field was still there. He could he he measured I saw him measuring with a gas meter and would gas meter would go all just the needle would disappear. He said, "All I can do is replace my switches." Which he did. And we tried to get some information off of the alarm systems records, but they were all garbled. couple days later, it hurts, starts to

hurt, and I realize I have this implant. Ann's fascinated. She says, "Listen, let's see what it's there for." I said, "I want to get it taken out. I'm going out to LA to Roger." She says, "Forget it. You're not getting it taken out. I want to find out what it is, what it does. I said, "Well, it's tracking me." She says, "Nobody cares that you go down to the get the newspaper. Nobody cares about anything you do. You're I said, "Well, yeah, true. I mean, I don't I mean, I'm not a criminal or

anything, so I leave it in." And it turns on every once in a while. I was with a Why do you think it turns on? What is it trying to communicate? At the time, I didn't know. There was no connection. What do you think now? Now, it turns on when at the 3:00 a.m. meeting and I go into this semi-meditative state and um I um uh and it I can feel it turns on. I and and I I

I interrogate it. I say I'm write writing on this. I'm working on that. It doesn't answer me in words, but it answers me in all kinds of different ways, including synchronicities where I will ask it for something, you know, when it first started. Sounds kind of awesome. Oh, it's fabulous. I would I I have to tell you, you're just like an upgraded human. Exactly. I that my wife was a very wise woman and I thank God she did not let me

get that taken out. It's the best thing I have in my life right now. But anyway, And who do you have any speculation on who the two people were that Let me let me finish. And I don't know who they were, but I do know some other people that are involved with this implant. This is a very surprising and fascinating story. Uh I'm um uh I have obviously got people in my life who are on the inside and I'm going to respect their privacy. I don't agree

with their secrecy, but I respect their And you think they take a special interest in you? They do. Definitely. Absolutely. They have for a long a lot of them have known for a long time. And getting back to all the way back to Dr. Webb, they knew what was going on. They know some of them still do. Anyway, think Sarbacher had interest in what you went through. Was it was it Sarbacher? I mean, it's like that organic or was that did he have an interest specifically in you? Oh, specifically that's why you asked Sarbacher wanted me to write it all out.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Something So, yeah. So, anyway, this gentleman, it's a wonderful gentleman. You both know his name, and I'm not going to say it cuz he also has a horrible temper. And now you know exactly. You're thinking, you you know who it is. And I'm If you say his name, I'm going to deny it. Plausible deniability. Okay. Anyway, I can look at your facial gestures. Anyway, he wants me to get a CT scan of

the implant. And I'm eager to do this, of course. I said, "Well, how am I going to do it?" He says, I say, "Because I can't go to my doctor and say, I want a CT scan of my ear for no apparent reason." And he says, "Well, I'll I'll call him." So I call the doc the doctor. I I he says and then he calls him back says make an appointment with him. I make an appointment with him and he's all excited. He says it's all set up. You

just have to go over the go to the get and they'll do a CT scan of your ear. And I go over to the power medical lab or wherever it was. And they they're very confused. A CT scan of your ear. And then there's a person who comes there who they don't know who wants to be there and there's a little confusion and that's resolved finally. And so they do it and I get it back and it's a wonderful I've got

images of it. It's a wonderfully clear perfect scan. You see the thing clearly. However, 2 days before this, after I have agreed to do it, someone somewhere got the idea apparently that I might get it agreed to have it taken out because I'm sure that's where from the CT scan, the next step was going to be, well, we've got a CT scan. We want to look at it.

which I am not going to duplicate. It's immediately recognizable and it's unusual. I know this knock and it's come to me a few times both here in California and in other places. I know that when that happens, I'm going to open the door and I'm going to have a conversation with human beings with some people. It happens. I open the door. Two men are there, one of whom I have met a number of times, one of whom I did not know, who I suppose I always there's

always a second one there, and I always think to myself, he needs a guard for some reason. Is it because he's being watched or because they're scared I'll go crazy or what is it? But anyway, they come in. He proceeds to explain to me how the implant works. [snorts] Very nice man. He explains that it that it uh can can pick up and uh needed information and find it and draw me to

it. I said, "It's like synchronicities." She says, "It's not a synchronicity. It's actually guiding you to where you need to go to get the information." And it's wonderful in that respect. All I have to do is think of something I need. What information? Just any anything I need. Anything you want. Anything I need. When you read the new book, you're going to see a lot of stuff about genetics and stuff in it that I no idea about before I started writing the book, but it's all there now. Do you think the two people who implanted it were human or non-heum? They looked like people. That's all I

know. I cannot tell you anything else about them. I don't know. Clearly, there was no there was no surgery. It was just like a No, it there was no there was no surgery there. It just went through the skin. So if they were people, they were and and this business with this super high intensity free floating magnetic field. We can't do that. We we can now but we couldn't thin. Yeah. I wonder if these are the the agents that Tim Taylor was talking about in that in his high beings or that if you talk to like people like

Richard Dolan, you know, he'll say like they're the Men in Black phenomena is actually very real and that's like counter intelligence for the NHI for the aliens or something. There's something there's some kind of there's some kind of bleeding off there between the the presence and the and us. And it it's got something to do with the DoD. I'm sure. I'm sure it does. Uh but let's go back now to the incident um uh to this the two men coming into the

apartment. This was a just a few years ago. So they explain to me, the man explains to me that part of it and a few other things about how it works. And then uh he says it was invented by a man named Constantine Raw. And they leave. And of course I immediately Google the name. And I realize as I'm googling the name, it's not Rodive. He mispronounces. It's Roto. Constantin Rod was an expert

in electronic voice phenomena and electronic voice communication with the No way. With [clears throat] the dead. With the dead. So like it's a a technological version of mediumship or something. Exactly. It's technological mediumship and it's he said that he designed it. Am I wearing something that was designed by someone who was dead and on the other side when he designed it or he did he design it before he died? I don't know. When did he live? He's passed away.

He died in the 70s, I think. But there's lots on on the internet about him. R A U D I V E. Have you tried to match up his patents or pictures from his work to end the look similar? No, I I didn't I couldn't find anything. but I did find this out. But that's fascinating that you describe your your you know this heating up at night at the specific hour that's known historically to be when you commune and and it's it's communion for you. You're seeing that there's a there's a

there's a there's a structure here. It's not random. Also, the other thing the implant does is opens up a slit in this eye. Really, it's more in this eye now, but it opens up a slit and you can see words racing through the slit too fast for you to read except occasionally. And they all seem to be kind of nonsense words. I mean, they're words. They're English words for the most part, but they're not uh relevant to anything. And I asked him about that and he said, the man, he

said, that's drawing up material from your unconscious that's relevant to what you're doing, what you're working on. And then and this is why when I'm writing, I can remember incredible detail about all kinds of And you've written 40 books. Yeah. But this is this is recent. This is after 2015. And I've only written about six books since then. So the thing came on starting 2015. In 20 No, it came on in 1989 and it

started working in 2015. Oh, it started activating in 2015. But there's Let's keep going here. Well, how does this guy know this about how it works though? How does the guy who knocks on your door come in because he is obviously part of the same world we're sort of talking about that I think Richard Dolan who is a lovely brilliant guy has got something. I think there is a breakaway civilization and we're talking about it right now. Interesting. So breakaway human civilization that is systematically in sure look human to me.

It's fascinating. Now then what happens is I start telling my friends this story and I'm talking about it. I tell one friend and he's asked me not to use his name. I've specifically asked him if I who says, "Well, yeah, oddly enough, I've had a slit like that in my eye uh for years. I've often wondered." And the words go through it and you can't quite read them. I said, "You know, I know what that is now." And I explain it to him. I said, and he says, "Well, that's

extraordinary because, you know, I he's written some books also, but here's the weirdest thing. He's one of the world's leading experts on Constantine Roderve. No way. What? What are the chances? That gave me No, there's not chances. It's an It was bit been in him for longer than mine has been in me. Yeah. Where's Ro? What? Where is he He was from uh Romania or Okay.

Lithuania or somewhere like that. I don't recall off the offh hand, but it there's a lot of and this did this guy live in your vicinity at all or is there you know any throughine between you and him as to like why he received this as well outside of I guess being connected to um there might be some kind of a through line. I can't see it. He lives up in uh up in Marane County. Why do you think yours activated in 2015? Why the delay? My I'll tell you why. I can tell you precisely. and this is this is just

And the words slow down and it says very clearly coming across, it's me and Whoa. So your wife when she passed on, you think she activated this to communicate activated it? And I think that woman maybe knew all I do not. An is a mystery wrapped in an She is. She is. So yeah, let's go into You know, can I just tell you something on since an came up like I remember the

first thing I ever watched on you and communion. I remember like after I prayed for her because I just I could feel how incredible of a soul she was and I prayed that and I I promise you this happened. I prayed that one day I find love like like Whitley. Oh man, you know when one of the visitors when I was in the abduction experience said to me, "You're the luckiest of the lucky." I thought what and and then later I thought well I'm must you know I've written communion and now I'm a big name but that wasn't it

was her it was finding an and I'll tell you how I found an how did you find her well I live was living in London and I like England I spent a lot of time there I came back to the states daddy got mad at me because I uh was supposed to go to the London School of Economics and instead metriculated at the London in film school. And a year later, he found this out, figured this out and got all pissed off and made me come home. And so I'm back in the States and I'm in New

York and I'm trying to I want girls. I mean, I'm, you know, 23 or something and I want a girlfriend. I had girls in you in London. Now I don't have any girls. So I go to singles bars and I've gotten a job. Dad said, "Well, you're on your own now. You got to find your work. do your thing and don't come back to San Antonio. Just do your thing. And so, uh, I, um, got a job as a media planner in an advertising, Bentman BS advertising.

And, um, I'm looking for girls. I'm going to singles bars and stuff. And all the guys in the singles bars, they're airline pilots, lawyers, doctors. They're all media planners probably, too. It's the lowest of the low in the advertising business. At least it was in those days. So, I come from a father never lie. Never lie. It's basic. It's in your my blood. So, I'm not going to say I'm a doctor or a lawyer. I said I'm a media planner. I was getting nowhere

because I'm not the prettiest thing that ever walked your Come on, Whitley. And no, [laughter] I mean, you don't sell yourself. You've been to You've been to You guys have been You might do better in singles bars than I did. I did not do well. So I see in the village voices now Mar and I just bring up aliens now different. He goes, "You know how we met?" It's actually alien. Yeah. Sorry. so you're at the you're going to the

single bars in New York. So I I I give up on that because I'm wasting my money clearly. And um I see this thing in the Village Voice or something called Mindmates. And I think great. My main problem has always been I want really smart girls because I want a girl. I want someone who's really really really smart. Preferably smarter than me. I figure I'll try this. So I try my inmates. I they send this package with I spend like

two or three hours writing essays and filling out forms. It's a very serious deal. I mean they're really into this. and send my stuff in. Couple of weeks later, a list comes back and it's got like five names on it. All of the names are the last names of fish or close to it like salmon, uh, Solomon, and that there's uh, trout and all this. Think what the hell is this? And there's one name on it,

Maddox, which is not a fish. And I think, is it the fish are all fake? And I actually was only sent one name when I was supposed to be sent five. So I call one of the fish and she's real. She is a fish. I mean, she is a trout or whatever it was. So I can't just hang up on her. So I we have a date. Doesn't work. I figure no more fish. I'm going to call the one that's not a fish. So I call Maddox. She's the receptionist or she's at She says she works at a certain place

and as an avenue, not far from where I was advertising. So I go there and this receptionist is sitting there with various things about her and she looks at up at me with these big brown eyes and I think oh god if only an Maddox looks like this girl I say I'm here to meet Anne Maddox. She says, "I'm an

We were not apart again for more than two weeks for the next 45 My best friend, who I talked about earlier, the first thing I did was take her down to Washington to meet him and his wife. And he says to me, "Wit, don't let this one go." And Ann always said, "I got the empir when he said that." when I told her he had said it and I said she said when I heard that I knew I was in. And I said, "You were in before that, baby. I

was no way I was ever going to let you go." She became my wife and and went back to school and got a degree in English literature to be my editor. And you know, I wrote seven novels before I published The Wolfin. And I got close with some of them. One of them was so annoying that this agent calls me and says, "I'd like you to come over. I'd like to talk about your book." I thought I said and it's a big agent,

Candida Naddio or some Jeff Brown I think his name was. He was a big agent. So I'm very excited. I think finally I've got an agent. He go over to his office. He sits down across from me at his desk and he says, "I just want to tell you that book was the most annoying thing I've ever read in my life." It was called The Searchlight Horror and it's about this town where nobody can leave and everybody gets killed and every in these bizarre accidents and

every time you get into a character they get killed and that's what makes the book so annoying. And Ann read it and she said, "Yeah, Whitley, he's right. This is infuriating. In fact, I'm not going to finish it because I'm going to beat you up if I finish it. Wow. So, but you're almost implying before getting into describing her that uh there's something very special about an as far as her role in your life above and beyond a romantic one. Listen, weird stuff started to happen as soon as we were together. Like what? Well, the f I'm not sure this is the

first thing that happened. Uh here I'll give you a couple of examples. There was a We lived on West 55th Street in Manhattan on between 8th and 9th. You cross 8th and then you get to 7th Avenue and there's a little distance between uh 7th Avenue and Broadway. And in that little area there was a place we laughingly would call the horror store. It was a little uh storefront. It's probably not there anymore. And um you would see

every once in a while a a attractive looking young woman sitting in the storefront in a skimpy dress with her legs crossed and a green curtain behind her. And we would pass it back and forth cuz we haunted the bookstores that were then lined to Madison Avenue. And we would laugh and say, "The horror store is open tonight." One night we're we're going home and the chair is on its side. The curtains flying back and forth in there and there's a guy trying to in a

Then that is not going to work. I mean, this is New York City." I I thought I thought to myself, the police will come here. They're not going there. So, we don't call the police. We also didn't go by the horse store at night. in that's one of the many things that happened. Many some of them were It's almost like uh your local shared reality with an was sort of divergent from the consensus reality that we all precisely precisely fascinating because you know later these blue figures which

played a I didn't remember at the time they played a role in my childhood. They've played a role in the whole experience in my life. I'll tell you something else about Lorie Barnes was our secretary and was reading she's we getting heaps and heaps of letters and I was saying you know we can't throw them out because they're very private many of them they got people's names and addresses what are we going to do yeah and just for context after community came out tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people were sending letters to home

because he left he left his address being like expecting you know maybe 10 20 people to send ends shutting down the whole the the the post office in there in his town. The abduction researcher, the pioneering abduction researcher, Bud Hopkins, who I pissed off unfortunately. Um but you know, that's story of my life. A good man was the one who said I should do that and it was very important, very important. So I want to just honor Bud for that. Uh anyway, uh we got these

did. So, uh, anyway, she's reading these letters. She hires a secretary, and this we'll come back into it in a second. We're going to get back to the blue Lori Burns, and they're working on the letters, and they're all four or 5 thousand of them are now at Rice University in a in an archive called the Archives of the Impossible, founded by Jeff Kriel. And uh so they're beautifully beautifully uh uh uh uh uh

curated now. They're so it's wonderful that they're there. [clears throat] So she comes out of her office one day. She says, "Whitley, this has something to do with what we call the letters again and again will mention the dead in connection with the visitors. M and when we would have she would choose people to come up to the cabin. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten the blue guys yet. Uh and she would say this letter she this person we're going to have them

up to the cabin. And when she would get these groups up at the cabin, the visitors would show up. Wow. She knew who to get. Sounds like Anne was Ann did this. An named the book Wow. Wow. And an Ann said things like I asked Anne, "What is enlightened?" She says, "Enlightenment is what happens when there's nothing left of you but love." Kind of the opposite of today's Well, nowadays we think of it very

Yes. You know, it's it's informational. That's so wild. The the the like one of my favorite quotes that drive this quest is the highest form of knowledge is It segus back to the telepaths. Uh-huh. You're not going to the hill unless you are kind and you do not lie. That that's the those are essential criteria. So, um she hires the secretary, Lorie Barnes, and they're working on the letters. Here is Lor's story. And now we're

more calm by that. And of course, it's the 50s, so we don't know what it's a boy or a girl. It turned out to be a girl. She I know her. We've talked. She's a very nice person. She has a lovely career. There's nothing about her that would say she's in any way an unusual human being except she's a very good sweet person and it does a lot of good in the world. Um, okay. So, this happens and she recoils

would go anywhere. He would do anything. He would not stop. And he was very koi about whether or not he had been activated. By activated, I mean, you see a UFO up close or you have a close encounter experience, you're activated. You you most people who that happens to, they a lot of people don't remember it. A lot of people can blow it off, but there are certain people who just will not stop. They will not stop. And so the the UFO almost installs in them some sort of drive or mission to for

disclosure or like an install inable curiosity or it installs within them a burning and they can't let that go. It's a wonderful A lot of the people in this field are much more wonderful than the outside world realizes that you like you get a room full of close encounter witnesses together. They're all incredibly sweet and mild. You think to yourself, well, a grays, they're little and they're fragile. Of course, they abduct people who are mildmannered, And children.

And children. I'm I'm very mild. I should be as mildmannered as I am, but I am very mildmannered. Um, and was the one with the temper. She could blow up in your face very easily. But Stan Freriedman's to me always stood out along with John Mack as these guys who were extremely rigorous, smart and accomplished in their sort of day job roles. You know, John Mack was obviously head of the Harvard psychiatry department and then Stan Friedman was like this Westinghouse nuclear engineer, right? you know, uh, Lawrence

Rockefeller, who was passed on sadly and was very interested in as much the annoyance of other members of his family, not all, but some, um, invited me and, uh, John Mack and Edgar Mitchell and, uh, Joe Lules, who's a UFO investigator from uh, El Paso, to his Medway plantation in uh, South Carolina to just sit together and have a, you

know, with our wives and significant others and just spend a weekend together and it was wonderful time and I got to know Jack John better then than I had What was that group like? And what was Lawrence Rockefeller like? And and John Lawrence was a Lawrence was a very he was a good man. He had a good heart and he was very curious and for whatever reason he knew this was real.

Yeah. I find that so fascinating that some of these elite families have such a deep interest and Lawrence Rockefeller specifically in the '9s was trying to get Hillary interested in this like um photo. Yeah. the photo of her holding Are We Alone by Paul Davies and it's a gift from Lawrence Rockefeller who was trying to get her more into disclosure and understand kind of the reality of of non-human intelligence. So, so you got the sense that he he knew like it's like he didn't even he knew something. Lawrence knew something. And uh uh Bootsie Galbra uh

was also a friend of Lawrence's and you know I tried to worm out of Bootsie what uh Lawrence knew and what they knew but she was quite koi about it. She'd been turned on in an interesting way. She was in Mexico with Steven Greer and he called in a UFO and they all saw it. Uh, didn't didn't the Rockerfellers both fund John Mack and Steven Greer as well in the 90s I believe? Yeah, they did. Yeah. And they funded the Princeton Parasychology Lab which was studying mind over matter. So,

okay. So, what was John Mack like? Was He was Well, first of all, we were both cutups when we were kids and played a lot of practical jokes and made bombs and did all kinds of crazy things you can't do anymore. And uh, so we had a lot to talk about. We had loads of fun talking about our childhoods and u he was a very very smart man. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions. That defines his mind better in fewer

words than any I can think of. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions. I will never forget the day I got a call and he was practically in tears. He he just had the ambush and he said they're going to try Harvard at Harvard. Yeah. He he was invited to a meeting. It was actually an ambush and they're going to try to take away my license to practice psychiatry and they're going to try to take away my

And I said, "John, what are you going to There was this silence on I never would forget silence. That was hard. It was bruty what they did to him. They went after him. Roger Lear had the same thing happen. They went after him. They tried to get get rid of him. Get take away his license practice for that. It's these show trials. And Dr. Diane Powell of the telepathy tapes mention knew John Mack when they were at Harvard together. They had offices down the hall

from one another. Her medical license got revoked for studying these telepathic children. Well, you know, there's two sides here. The side of Galileo and the side of the Inquisition. And let's face it, it's very obvious that Dr. Powell, Dr. Mack, the others, Dr. Lear, are on the side of Galileo. And these other creeps are on the side of the Inquisition, and they function

like inquisitors. Yeah. I always wonder is 100%. Amomar and I were at the DC hearings, you know, a few weeks ago and this just straight up spook came up to us and in in the hotel that we were staying at, yells at us from across the hall, uh uh our friend Chris Ramsay, who's an amazing magician from Canada who's gotten super interested in in the UFO thing. He's actually a world famous magician. Kind of knows when people have tricks up their sleeves because a lot of, you know, the name he's made as a

magician is actually debunking other magicians tricks or elucidating them and showing how they work. And so this guy is provoking us trying to get basically get us to say that we're cynical about disclosure and like don't believe in UFOs and aliens by saying asking these leading questions saying you know it's all right? You know you guys you're just doing for content, right? Like you want clicks, you want likes, whatever. And then Chris after he leaves is like that guy had his hand in his right pocket the whole time and was definitely trying to record you. And anyways going back to this kind of

establishment, you know, scapego versus the truth seeker, innocent truth seeker, I think about people on that side like that guy. Like what's your psychology? Like do you do you have any historical context for what you're doing? Like if you if you're just persecuting people earnestly looking into you know truth like how do you live with yourself and do do you have zero like metaphysical understanding like you don't think any of your earthly actions have any implications for what you do in

the future? It's all just you're expedient expediently aligning yourself with the establishment force. You just want a promotion like like what do you think's going to happen to you? You don't you don't want to do that because you don't want we have souls and we're anesthetized to our souls for a reason so that we can live free. But no, you definitely don't want to live a lie in lies and you don't want to hurt other people. You have to

um like and another thing an said that's so powerful. I asked her what compassion was because I I'm really interested in compassion. I want to be a compassionate man. I want to be a good man. And she says to me, she didn't answer the question directly. She says, "Each of us is all we have." And that really went through me because, you know, when I'm on the street and I'm

someone's pissing me off and I'm I'm I'm a driver in LA and there are there's the odd 3minut period when I'm not pissed off. Uh, and I always think of this these words and I'm face to face with someone I really don't like and don't want to be with. this person is all they It changes everything. It's incredibly powerful. It makes you into a better person just by knowing those few words

and keeping them in your It's amazing. You know, that's power. That's word power of the first order. Yeah. And we are all on a journey. And I think it's some, you know, there's evil is typically depicted as being consciously tyrannical evil. You know, sort of like mastermind evil. Often it's just being unconscious. It's just, you know, acting on sort of these primitive instincts that are is often the default and and emerges if you don't kind of consciously override it or seek virtue.

And uh yeah, I think uh we all just need to look at ourselves. And she would always engage with homeless people and stuff. And Ann would Yeah. And I I would say, you know, uh h how can you know whether or not you know I always would she said just don't judge them. You you'll feel which ones can use your help and which ones can't. Just don't judge them. Don't don't go there, Whitley. Don't go to that part of

your head. You don't know why they're there out in the street and you never will. It's not your business. Speaking of which, given that you wrote a book on Jesus, Jesus has been sort of rewritten by the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Steven Mitchell, all sorts of writers yourself. what do you think most people misunderstand about him? They misunderstand

misunderstood thing is in modern times is the resurrection. Uh uh Jefferson Bible takes it out. It should not be taken out in Jesus and you vision. I go into exactly why it actually happened. And this gets way back to the beginning of our conversation when you mentioned that has something to do with these extraordinarily powerful states. It activates something that happened to

What happened in the tomb was a real thing. And the book lays out exactly what happened because there's been magnificent research done on it that's ignored because it doesn't fit the paradigm. But in fact, he did come out of the tomb. Well, the tomb was empty when Mary Right. Exactly. As a light being and and the shroud, remember [clears throat] he said, "If you do not follow me, I will return as a thief in the night." And then and in

Jesus a new vision I point out the time of that return. It was 1898 when the first photograph was taken of the shroud. That was the moment he returned and we saw him on the shroud. The shroud is amazing. And I think it was studied by like NASA at some point. Well, no, it was studied by a group of group of air force guys. Air Force. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] And they claimed to debunk it, but they only took a little piece of it or Oh, no. I'll tell you the story. I'm very close to this story.

Uh, Father Peter Raldi was a friend of Ans. She had, you know, if you ever go to New York, when you go to New York, go down to LaGuardia Place and between LaGuardia and uh right off of right uh immediately north of uh of Uston Street and rather at Bleecker Street is 520 LaGuardia on one side and there's this beautiful park on the other side called LaGuardia Park. If you go, you'll see a statue of LaGuardia in there and you

look down at the bottom of the statue and there's a plaque and all these famous social people are on the plaque and so are the names Ann and Whitley Strieber. And one day we lived in the building 520 LG place. She was looking down there and she said, you know, I'm going to turn that into a park and it was just a place, you know, it was a druggie hangout and stuff and she I said, "How can you do that?" I visualized her going down there with a shovel. She said, 'Well, I'm going to do it. And she called, got all of her friends going and got them networking.

And soon they had millions of dollars to build this park and to create the statue and permission from the city. And there's the plaque. There's the statue. It's a wonderful statue of Lagardi. The park is so verdant and full of birds. And that's an I'll go I will go there. Don't miss it. It's like it's a pilgrimage place in my own. Next time I'll definitely meet you. Yeah, I love to meditate in that part So what happens to Jesus is this in at least as I understand it.

He goes to Egypt. He understands the resurrection technique here and he sets out to do this in I I re-ransated the saying gospel of Thomas. is you think, "Oh, he translates Greek." It's easy Greek. I mean, it's it's very The Gospel of Thomas is remarkable. Yeah. It's absolutely extraordinary. But what do you say to the people cuz I I'll argue all day with like

conventional Christians where I'm like, think that book is really special. And then they say, "Oh, it was found, you know, first of all, it was written 150 years later after his death and it was found, you know, 1948 in this sort of, you know, pile of, you know, the Namati or whatever." The saying's Gospel of Thomas according to the the Q scholars is the oldest gospel. And they're probably right. Okay. So, it's the oldest gospel, right? It was the beginning of the of the story. Let's go to the thread of you saying that Jesus went to Egypt. He learned this technique in Egypt and

the technique is sort of the mystery ritual resurrection. Total ego death. And we're going to get back to the part about the the discovery of the shroud and the work that was done on it in a minute. I don't want to forget that and then we could quit. he then in effect becomes a a magician at a time where in the Roman Empire the Cornelian laws are in effect and they will kill you in all kinds of very very depressing ways if they catch you being a magician. So he's very careful. That's

why he tells people don't tell anyone that I'm doing this. He understands something about the mind. And my new book is all about this. It's about recovering this power. Because we can all do this. I believe that. And this is where I differ from the conventional Christians. Jesus is in all of us. That power is in all of us. He wasn't here to put himself on a p pedestal. He was here to say, "I am the son of man. I

am a human being." Well, in the in the Gospel of Thomas, doesn't he take Thomas who's typically depicted as, you know, this Judas Judas as this like betrayer? Uh he's he takes Thomas aside and he whispers secret words to him. And so what are what are those secret Well, he he doesn't tell, but they the other disciples ask him what does he say? And he says they say Thomas says if I told you you would stone him to death

in the saying gospel he says don't believe me I'm not a teacher. He says go out among the Gentiles and eat the food you're given. Violate the law to a total revolutionary. What he's saying is leave your ego behind and be you, your real self. And it doesn't matter. Everything depends on this. Do anything to find yourself. It goes all the way back to the delphic oracle. Know

And this is also the word, the core word of Jesus. Know thyself. And the kingdom of heaven is within you and all around you. and all around you, but find it. Be as little children. What what's the other Gospel of Thomas quote? It's um if you look up, the birds will precede you. If you look to the sea, the the fish will precede you. The kingdom of heaven is within you. And uh the great poetry of being is there. The poetry of being. It's so it's fascinating. And and we I

you know I just interviewed Doc uh Colonel Carl Nell who he kind of traces back the origins of these sort of esoteric versions of religion that he thinks all kind of bound together in this kind of hermetic lineage and he talks about the festival of said and the Egyptian magical papyrie where you have these sort of you know secret brotherhoods in Egypt. That's very interesting. I did not know that. I want to talk to Carl about that. I know don't know him well. I sent him an arc of my new book and that's an advanced reading copy of my new book. I haven't heard back yet from anyone. I

sent all my friends that arc. I sent it I even sent it to Robert Bigalow who I don't I know but not well. And u uh I sent it to Jacqu Valet and Leslie Kaine who is a close friend and of course Jeff Krile and Hal Pudof who's been a friend since forever. I mean we've been friends since I was a since I was about we've been friends for over 30 years. Since how old were you? Well since the community experience. Okay. So, so, um, let's go to the Shroud

of Trin because I I have a friend named Randall Carlson. Works a lot with Graham Hancock, incredibly smart, just super rigorous. I would not do justice to his work on this topic, but he has all sorts of principles arguments as to why the shroud of Trin is absolutely real. It is. He's probably right. Okay, here's what happened. a father Peter Raldi who Anne knew uh calls us up one day calls her up one day and says I want you to come to a meeting we're having a meeting

about the shroud of turret would you be interested and she of course says yes we'll come and I said what is the shroud of turret she said well let's go to the meeting we'll find out we go to the meeting and it's with Jackson and Jumper the two guys who are they're fundraising for the initial studies And um I never meet them. I mean I talked I you know in a fundraiser context but I never like become friends or anything with them. So, we contribute

as much money as we could afford to it, a few thousand dollars and we follow it and they do their stuff and it's all in the papers and then I hear that material has been taken from the shroud and it's going to be sent to Oxford and I write Father Raldi a letter. Do not do this. They have to defend their paradigm. They will lie without knowing it. And they do bury

that very thing. They say the shroud is from the middle ages. They destroy the research. But it doesn't end because this is humanity. And there are other people in the world who have a better grasp of the truth here. They can feel the energy. and other scientists. And now Jesus and New Vision sums up where they are. And where they are is you can't deny it anymore if you're a real

scientist. The shroud is the single strangest thing on planet Earth. And it is that way because it records the moment a human being whose body had expired transformed into a being of light. What makes you think it's real? uh the weave of the cloth, the pollins found on it all place it in exactly that place. Yeah. And time. The uh uh image

could not have been produced by almost anything except a sudden burst of neurons. And remember the rending of the of the curtain in the temple and the earthquake. That was the moment of the resurrection. It's a tremendously powerful event. A burst of neurons, a burst of of energy that involves uh Neutrons involves a it involves an expression of a burst of neutrons. And that's what

burned the image into the shroud. And that's the whole thing of like maybe that in intense suffering. Christ all the way back to the and that kind of electromagnetic the neutron burst and then you're in there all all these ancient art depictions of like saints and holy figures traveling up in this kind of cobbalistic like bubble envelope thing like this celestial ascend vehicle vehicle or what wheel of Ezekiel you know the whole theme of this conversation it

goes back to what you just said we've been talking about the power of suffering ing in all kinds of different ways over the course of this conversation. And now here we are coming to the end of it and we're talking about the ultimate moment that the power of human suffering was expressed into the world by Jesus in his resurrection. And this is where we have to go. We have to go back to an understanding of that which is also an understanding of ourselves and face the hardest thing of

all which is this place is a miracle. It is a whole mira this whole planet is a miracle. And that's why all of these unmiraculous but fascinated creatures are cut are going around here and why they do not want us to kill ourselves off. On that note, I this makes me want to go pray. Like I that's definitely what I'm going to go do. But like Yeah. we should do a prayer session after Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I I can't think of a better note to end Willy, we really appreciate your time.

This was awesome. Oh, thank you. I'm so glad. It was such a pleasure to be here. You guys were really fun to be with. Thank you so much. Right back at you, man. You got a lot to say and uh I hope the the world understands how profound your message is, your experiences are. They will in time. I probably I'll probably have become a shade by then, but nevertheless, they will. Well, you look great now. So, I feel great, too. I biked 10 miles this Oh, that's incredible, man. Yeah, I do it I do it three times a week or swim or

go to the gym. I'm a very active guy Good for you, man. Well, okay. Well, thank you, Willie. Appreciate it, man. Huge news, everyone. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing weekly in our new Our first episode is a completely uncut, heated discussion between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein on remote viewing. Yeah, you heard that right. I still can't believe I experienced that firsthand and now I'm happy to share it with you all as our first exclusive

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