UFOs, Synchronicities & Prophetic Dreams (Ft. Eric Wargo)

that is AI uh you have a new theory of mind that I think comports with a lot of people's intuitions as to how the human mind works I want to start with a really interesting concept that you actually present at the beginning of time Loops which is this idea that often prophecies are you get some sort of message that message actually causes you to react in a certain way to the message that then manifests or causes the actual prophecy

to come to fruition and the traditional example of this might be edus how do you explain that what what sort of model do you apply to that if it works the way I think it works and I think that scient various Trends in science are converging I think on a a an actual physical explanation for how it works if it works that way prophecies have have to be self-fulfilling now what does that mean

events in the future are in a sense fixed in the same way events in the past are fixed now if that's the case any kind of time travel and precognition is really a form of time travel it's a form of informational time cannot change history okay there's this is a a misconception people people somehow they think about precognition or they think about time travel I think but wait you could go in the past go into the past and change history and and kill

your grandfather and so you would you know you couldn't be born and all that you grandfather Paradox AP that's uh it's kind of faulty reasoning uh and in fact physicists in the in the 80s kind of did the math I mean they got interested in wormholes and things like that and they did the math uh and found that no in fact if you send a particle through a wormhole or billiard ball through a wormhole and try to deflect it away from the Wormhole it fails you're always gonna deflect yourself into the

Wormhole and you're always going to be in what's called a closed timelight curve or a Time Loop it means that the universe is self-consistent it means you uh Paradox doesn't occur and that's the definition of paradox something that can't occur um so any intervention in time any backward influence via information alone or via physical objects traveling uh through a wormhole or a time machine or something like that that that Adventure in the past whatever it is is already part of the

backstory of getting in the time machine in the future um and there's really no problem there's really no problem with time travel or with information traveling in time it doesn't lead to Paradox you just have to wrap your head around the idea that that you now are the product of time traveling information already and maybe Time Travelers you know you know your history your past history includes you know all

that time traveling uh either physical time traveling of advanced beings or and very at the very least information in your head that's traveled back in time from your future you are you now are the product of information reflexing from your future and influencing your past and influencing your present M that's why uh we can say that prophecy is always self-fulfilling now that doesn't mean it in a simplistic way that that that you know you have a dream and

things are going to turn out exactly the way you dreamed it there are all kinds of reasons why we don't interpret prophecies accurately there's all kinds of reasons why the brain distorts information coming from our future I think what one of the basic things that time Loop relationship to our future surviving self and imagine that's the case for even you know bacteria in the primordial soup you know that it goes

back to the beginnings of the evolution of Life uh it's a it's a it's just a new way of thinking about causation yeah it's interesting because on the one hand I think belief in the block universe is traditionally associated with nihilism or something it's like your future is sort of cemented in stone and then on the other hand what you're saying is there is sort of evolution upwards towards probably greater Consciousness and especially if artist artists are Reaching Forward into their future for

kind of inspiration you know presumably that future is very rich and you know involves maybe more Consciousness than is present I do want to get into just a few examples because I think that's really powerful for kind of the average person uh getting into this sort of stuff because it's so trippy and not you know uh in accord with their normal worldview and so the example that I love is Carl Young has this patient she's this kind of very inaccessible kind of hyper rationalist patient who he can't kind of get through to obviously Carl

Young is this contemporary of freuds but who's even trippier in in many ways than Freud and um he sees her and she comes in and she says look I had I had this dream last night that I was gifted this golden scare Beetle and it was this really meaningful thing to me she doesn't quite know what to make of it and as she's telling recounting the story she sees a a scarab beetle coming down off the window seal and uh he then takes the scarab beetle and Gifts it to her and it's this like mindblowing super meaningful thing for her that like

changes her Paradigm and so it's the uh attentional patterns of actually knowing the sort of Prophecy or the dream the pre precognitive dream changing her reaction her being aware of that dream actually caused the whole thing to happen which I just find so fascinating that's my favorite example of a Time Loop that's the one I always use when people ask me what a Time Loop is that's the example because it's so uh it's so

perfect it you know it shows exactly how a dream changes Behavior and the behavior leads to the outcome in in an unforeseen way I mean they she couldn't have known uh you know we I mentioned how dreams you know they they show us the future but not in a very clear way and often in a not directly intentionally actionable way but they had changed our Behavior like being deflected by uh you like Billiards being deflected you know it's like it's a that was a billiard ball from her future which deflected her to this experience

in her therapist's office the next day and lo and behold that that experience that had deflected her toward was what she dreamed about but she couldn't have known that uh when she had the dream um so yeah that's that's a beautiful beautiful example do you have any other examples that you love oh so many I mean I mean another one would be just edus which is obviously sort of mythological but do you want to tell that story yeah well I mean there's a lot to say about edus

because I mean if anyone you know if anyone knows anything about edus these days it's they're going to be thinking about oh Sigman Freud you know because of the edus complex and all that and he you know he focused well the asopus story is that uh this there's this prophecy that this young prince of Thieves is going to grow up and murder his father and marry his mother um and so to evade this prophecy uh he flee when he learns about

this prophecy he flees his his City he doesn't know that he's actually been brought up in a foster or adopted family so he flees his City winds up killing this man at a Crossroads who turns out to be his father and then winds up marrying his mother unknowingly and become you know so he fulfills the process it fulfills the prophecy exactly in his efforts to evade the prophecy um and this is you

know this logic uh is I think crucial to to how we relate to to time and to our precognition which we we deny our precognition we deny that prophecy you know partly because of cultural tabos and and all kinds of things uh the interesting thing is that Freud I mean he he he was only interested in that that uh that insestuous idea like the that part of the story so he talked about the edus complex and you know how

uh children are sexually attracted to their uh their opposite sex parent and want to kill because they're they're jealous of same sep and so on um but you know he he sort of denied he didn't believe in precognition and he denied the the rest of the story about the pro you know the prophecy and all that because well that's just premodern you know Superstition the thing is in Freud's own life he the dream that sort of uh started it all for Freud uh it was

a dream he had in 1895 um famous dream and he spent like 14 pages of his his Landmark book interpretation of dreams you know interpreting this dream through free association and stuff like that well like 28 years later I think I may be getting the number wrong uh he had an he developed an oral cancer which like all these elements these key elements in that dream he'd had almost three decades earlier came true in his life and he

never acknowledged that that dream was a premonition but it's it's like in Freud's own life he lived out that edus story I mean he denied precognition he denied prophecy he denied you know the very existence and and like patients would bring him precognitive dreams all the time because people have these dreams all the time and they would bring him their dreams and he would just explain them away in in in some fasile way and in his own life he winds up denying prophecy and then developing

this oral cancer which by the way was caused by his smoking uh and there are hints in the dream of that fact you know so it has been argued that well had he you paid attention to this dream as a warning from his future you know he might have quit smoking and all that that gets into these problems we talked about earlier of of time loops and foreclosing a a foreseen future it doesn't work as simply as that but uh that yes that's so that's another way in which uh we fulfill a prophecy by

denying it or ignoring it or shutting it aside um so I think that's a hugely important archetype for modern people because we live in a culture that denies uh that that the future can influence us especially in dreams and you know what what effect is that what impact does that have on our our Mental Health on our uh fortunes um that's absolutely fascinating because you think of Freud as beling that most people are

sort of repressed and they have sort of an ego and an ID and the ID is sort of this compartmentalized Savage self or something you know all these repressed desires and so maybe the ID for him was in some ways realizing that like his his own work was actually sort of somewhat autobiographical because I you know he did have that interesting relationship with his own mother yeah and uh so you know it's like yeah who watches the Watchmen or whatever he's this like preeminent psychologist but in fact you know maybe a lot of his own work and

theories are actually projection of his own subconscious well it it's his um this is why I think Freud is so interesting and important in all this because even though he didn't believe in Pre cognition per se uh his theory his what what's sometimes called his metapsychology which is that that's that kind of layered model of the of Consciousness where you have the the tip of the iceberg that's the conscious self and then this buried submerged that theory of the unconscious is super

important and it it's a ready-made theory of precognition because really precognition manifests in all the ways that interested Freud in his career so being with dreams that's the number one way that people become aware that they are precognitive uh is through having precognitive dreams but also they manifest in Waking Life in these kinds of uh what he called the Psychopathology of everyday life which is uh that was the title of his second book uh which is things like slips of the tongue and what we now call synchronicities you didn't

have that word yet that was a term introduced by Carl Young um you know more generally just H you know having a random thought about an old friend and then seeing him on the street you know like that it's a very typical experience uh uh and other like foibles like neurotic symptoms or whatever that that W these all these uh all these kind of quirks of human behavior that's how precognition that's

how it gets our attention that's how we experience it and creativity which is the subject of my my most recent book and my next book that's coming um so it's a readymade it's a readymade theory to understand precognition we just have to the way I always put it you know you okay you picture the iceberg with the the tip on top and the the submerged base but you know you usually we think of time as a as an axis an x-axis you know running from left to right so tip the iceberg on its side yeah uh and just

think of that fut that big submerged part that's just that's the future it's we we don't know the future yet we so we can't interpret we can't correctly interpret all this this information coming at us and and manifesting and all these oblique uh indirect symbolic ways uh but that's where it's coming from it's not coming from some submerged layer of thought that we're not aware of because that's kind of a paradoxical idea anyway um it makes much more sense to to think of that the unconscious as

our future Consciousness that's that's impacting us now yeah it's interesting it's like you get shards of it you know I often think when I have these sort of conversations with the AI dogmatic people you know they think the AI is going to take over everything I always say well I think the human mind works in it fundamentally distinct way and I often site your book which has a really interesting model of the Mind as kind of a hybrid Quantum classical computer and the very creative and interesting idea that you bring up and Robert Lanza and

biocentrism also sort of touches on that uh there's temporal non-locality in Quantum systems so uh you know you can do a double slit experiment in the future it seems like one interpretation that's affecting you know the one done with an Tangled Photon in the past and uh you can even reverse Cubit positions in in uh Quantum computations and so a lot of people even who are working on quantum computers obviously the bottleneck is the hardware and getting the chips to work have

hypothesized that you can send information back in time on the semantic application layer in a hypothetical working quantum computer and so if our brain is a Quantum system which people as prominent as Roger Penrose has have you know hypothesized maybe we can glitch into the future and access some of some of this information send it back in time I think this is going to be I think what you're describing the the kind of use of quantum computers uh as

uh Comm or Tesseract is the kind of the term I use from science fiction as like these four-dimensional information processors and communication devices I mean I think that is really it's kind of the link it's going to be it's the link that's going to lead to True time travel okay I think um uh because it's that informational time travel uh that you know uh that's already happening you can look at biological systems as models for how it works uh and yeah in a quantum

computer you can theoretically scale up the the that causal indeterminacy that's happening on the the quantum level you can scale that up into like a usable you know object that you can measure at two time points and get you know get a sort of output prior to an input in a sense yes um and you scale that up uh in a quantum computer server that you leave plugged in for many years uh it really opens the doorway to actually communicating across time this is the uh

this is the really cool premise of William Gibson's uh the peripheral I don't know if you've read the book or seen the series the series is actually really quite good um uh it's the the premise is that this uh video gamer in the American South you know around now uh is in this like in this Advanced Sim and flying this drone in this like futuristic city and she thinks it's a Sim whatever and she sees this character getting murdered like she thinks it's an NPC getting murdered uh but then she

gets a call uh via quantum computer server from uh from this publicist who lives in London in like 22nd century and he tells her that in fact what she witnessed she was actually piloting a real drone in in future London via a quantum computer server and had witnessed a real murder and so he like enlists her Aid in solving the murder this murder across you know uh you know a century you know uh it's a really cool

premise but I think William Gibson is is really appreciate obviously I mean he fortold uh cyberspace essentially and I think I think this is the next I think this is the next thing and I think people who are thinking about Quantum Computing simply from the standpoint of just speeding up number crunching or whatever are like really missing missing the boat I I I think it's absolutely the next thing and the idea that the body is warm wet and noisy and not you know actually um a good conducive to Quantum coherence is slowly being destroyed it's

going out the window you have Quantum biology you have um you know enzyme creation using Quantum tunneling you have Birds navigating home using the cr4 protein spin which is you know basically a a kind of a magnetometer it's it's detecting the magnetic field of the earth and allowing them to do that and um you have you have other examples as well and it's these things are getting proven out over over and over and over again and I think actually have you are you familiar with rert sheld Drake by any chance sure so like I think he

doesn't have you know really clear mathematical models around how any of this stuff works but he has really good showing that humans in their bodies often just instinctively know when certain things are about to happen and it's almost like we become you know it's like we know that or animals know that earthquakes are about to happen uh kids know when their parents are near and it's almost like you get overeducated you get your you know Elite Western liberal education or whatever and you

like unlearn that but that's of course like incredibly instinctive it makes total sense and even prosaically if you think about how the mind learns it is in low sample size you come out of the womb with like you know a fear of snakes and with a Chomsky and pregrar for certain things and that's not how a classical computer works you need to you know look at like the large language models that open AI is using you're running the internet through that thing like those are two very different things so I think we have to be open to this Quantum you know uh precognition of The Future model

absolutely I mean I think that uh you know steuart Hammer off I'm sure you know his work on microtubes I think that's you know that's going to be the I think micr tuul are probably going to be the the mechanism here I think there there many there are many Quantum you like I said like I say in time Loops I think the brain a lot of people simplistically say oh the brain is a quantum computer it's not that simple it's a it's a hybrid it's a hybrid of classical and Quantum systems you know meshed and we understand at this point you know through Decades of neuroimaging

and and and Neuroscience that we have at this point we understand really well that classical uh the classical circuit level you know way in which the brain takes input from the senses and controls the body and all that you know in this in a way that you can liken to a you know a computer chip in a in a robot you know it's it's just way more complicated than that but we you know that that is true that that classical level of computation and control over our system is is true but but what's happening

inside neurons is what we're only beginning to understand and uh and lo and behold these things that used to be just thought of as the bones of neurons uh turn out to be these really interesting highly Dynamic structures that oh they're Quantum you know they're they're it's already been shown that they uh are U superconduct uh which really suggests that yeah these Quantum relationships are going on what

was that study that came out a few months ago that they're super radiant do you know what I'm talking about yeah yeah there's been a bunch of stuff coming out from this team that hammer off works with and I don't I'm forgetting their names but uh yeah there's a lot of cool stuff coming out here's but the thing is I think that you know I almost think that that hammer off could almost win the Nobel Prize for this work if he wasn't focused on Consciousness I think Consciousness is really kind of a red herring in all this wanting to to show how this generates Consciousness but I think and just for people for people that don't know the

way he tries the way he got on to this is Penrose created this theoretical model for you know the brain being a Quantum system which is kind of answering this age-old question of why we see discret ma macroscopic reality in kind of general relativity form when actually it's sort of probabilistic you know and it's you know underlying at least subatomic nature like where does that cut off occur and so he he writes that um uh Emperor's mind or something and then the emperor's new mind I think is the one with hammer off Hammer off is this anesthesiologist who realizes that

when you shut down the microtubules the rest of the body is running as if it's totally alive but Consciousness shuts down and so he thinks it's a center of Consciousness well that ended of itself is an interesting point but uh but I think focusing on the question of Consciousness I you know it's such a fraught area you know it's you know someone on Twitter a c last month posted a graph of like like 200 different theories of Consciousness you know and they all you know I'm I'm sympathetic to

a lot of these you know both the hard materialist versus the you know the even the eliminated eliminative materialist explanations and the pan psych yeah they're all interesting I think you can learn from all of them but but I don't think any any physical explanation is going to satisfyingly explain Consciousness yeah and so it's kind of a hopeless hopeless task to like try and try and say Here's the answer to Consciousness with this one physical

process it's a very interesting physical process but I don't think he's going to convince people you know with with that but these microtubes he's studying are I think the basis for precognition because if they're quantum computers if uh they can then theoretically do what we were talking about which is uh scale up this ability to sort of have a system where you measuring at one point and then measuring at a second point and then getting information reflexing from that second measurement and reading it out in

the past you know you string a lot of those together in some system well then you have a precognitive circuit and what's fascinating about micr tube Wheels is that these control the shape of the cell they control um uh they control like the uh dendrites and axons you know forming new connections and they control the the the the size of a synaptic connection like you know when you have a memory forming they will expand that that synaptic connection to

facilitate that memory so they're in charge of memory formation and if precognition is a form of memory as I argue and as a lot of people have argued then right there you have a potential mechanism you have a potential physical mechanism to explain this this thing that has been rejected for for centuries because oh it's impossible it's you know has no physical basis well I think we are now converging on a possible physical mechanism I mean that's a testable hypothesis at the very least

have you heard of a Russian scientist with the last name liberman l i b r okay uh two friends of mine denil and David liberman they previously worked at Snapchat they're absolute Geniuses they sort of um resemble like Bond villains or something they like have this mind meld going on they use one phone they're very eccentric their father knew uh hamov and or I think knew Penrose rather and was uh really interested in cytoskeletal learning but okay I I have

brilliant move and what defines a brilliant move is a move that doesn't make any sense in the context of like the incremental go forward rational decision it only makes sense in the context of an end point in which the person wins so it's often based on the other person slipping up or what their their adversary slipping up that part of the brain lights up in an fmri and so and then that part of the brain according to Gary Nolan is also much more neuronally dense when you you see a greater preponderance of UFOs and you

have more premonition you're a little more psychic and so I wonder if that is not part of the quantum processing at the very least well the quantum processing would be again would be going on within the cells in that brain area but that's that makes perfect sense the the that system is part of the reward system um and so it's it's involved in our uh registration of rewards our learning based on rewards our predictions based on past rewards

um uh and that system I think is Central you know it's Central it's kind of the Central classically in that classical computer uh model uh in terms of the organism you know changing its Behavior based on rewards and getting excited about possible future rewards and anticipated rewards and all that so that's what that system is doing but but the cell but but all the neurons in all parts of the brain have those microtubules and have those Quantum uh

components in them so yeah I mean that's that's G to I'm sure that's going to somehow prove to be important in you know in future decades when we understand this better and in in time loops and in from nowhere you have so many just fascinating examples in kind of the Zeitgeist and culture of precognition and so I don't know if you want to you know just cite some of those like Michael Richards this resident artist in the Twin Towers do you remember that one oh yeah I yes his story is uh it's

tragic but you know fascinating um he was so Michael Richards this is Michael Rolando Richards not Michael Richards the comedian uh but Michael Rolando Richards was a um a sculptor A black sculptor in uh the 90s I mean he was sort of an upand cominging uh sculptor in the New York art world uh in the 90s and he did a series of like all of his Works were like obsessed with flight and uh he would he would do these uh

sculptural self-portraits of himself as a Tuskegee Airmen and the Tuskegee Airmen were uh black aviators in World War II who sort of distinguished themselves you know in their in their piloting but then were subject to all the racism that uh that you might expect and anyway he would portray himself as a Tuskegee Airman uh in some sculptures he had crashed to the ground uh or he had tried to parachute or was trying to parachute into a Target that was too

or um uh and and in and in the sculpture that made him most famous uh which he did in 1999 while he was in Miami uh he portrayed himself as a Tuskegee Airman standing vertically erect and levitating off the ground and being impaled by airplanes by a bunch of airplanes and the sculpture is called tarab versus St Sebastian and St Sebastian was the was the Medieval Saint who you know is always depicted like pierced by arrows uh but anyway so hect

himself pierced by planes as a martyr pierced by planes okay so he you know on the basis of the strength of his work including I assume that sculpture he and this would be another time Loop uh he got a um he was awarded Studio space for six months in the Twin Towers the Lower Manhattan cultural Council uh had been uh issuing Studios to like a CO you know cohorts of 15 artists like like for six

that he was working on other sculptures that were similarly like unbelievable like like one of them was of him riding a burning meteor uh and another one was was of his torso um with wings uh like it was called Fallen Angel uhuh so uh and his other works you know he did some pen and pencil stuff too including one that had a plane crash like a lot of sculptures of planes crashing so crazy um so you know what do

this novel called futility about the Collision of the biggest ever ocean liner called the Titan with an with a with an iceberg on on an April night in the North Atlantic on its third voyage between Liverpool and New York okay so you know 14 years later you have blue blooded Elite families oh and they all die because there not enough lifeboats it's the Titanic essentially um you know stories like that um but the thing is when you delve into like and and it's

easy for Skeptics to go oh well you know in a world of you know chance yeah that's going to happen you know sometimes and then we single out those those examples and we make something of them but it's all just random well no I mean you when you study the lives of artists uh you find this stuff happens all the time not necessarily with big events in the news I mean mostly as with precognitive dreams it happens mostly with personal upheavals upheavals

in our own lives things that wouldn't necessarily even be significant to anybody else but but they are meaningful to us and When We're Dreaming or when we're creating art or whatever we those things come out um and it's just incredibly incredibly common I mean I have so many I filled this book with examples and I've got a million more you know I've got I'm writing a second book on the same you know a similar subject with even more cases from from writers um so it's just it's a very very common

uh very common phenomenon yeah it's fascinating you I mean the idea that profits aren't real is a that's a modern idea that's a symptom of modernity it's not um you know that's kind of an aberration if you look at actually like the longtime scale of human civilization and you even I don't know this is a weird example but like Alex Jones say wa will about the guy as far as some of his other beliefs but are you familiar with he he had an onair call on CNN where he goes Osama b l if you take down the the Twin Towers I'm

gonna come after you or something like it's just this absurd like you know literally what happened in six months before and he's like on he's on cable you can't fake that he's on you know CNN I didn't know about that there's a million I mean there's a million there uh prophecies whatever you want to call them of 911 I mean there's uh simply by virtue of the fact that you know the there was the internet already at that point and you know people can now collect all that stuff and put it online so it's like it's an overwhelming mass of of material uh prophecy in that event

but yeah yeah it's fascinating yeah there's so many my dad actually is a he's kind of a self-help author and he uh he wrote a book called the tools and in it he talks about how he would always dream of an earthquake on Jan January 17th and that was both the day that's my birthday that's the day I was born and then two years later that was the Northridge Quake oh wow in and we live in LA and so um yeah I don't know very very interesting and I bet you the more people you pull like it's it's much

Stargate that's the name of the program and coming out saying you know we think there's some inexplicable thing here and we actually think that there is sort of a psychic function when it comes to human beings so UTS uh did an analysis of a lot of uh evidence for psychic functioning not just the Stargate program I don't believe uh and she found overwhelming evidence and she's been very very vocal about this I mean she was the you know the president of the American statistical society and stuff one year and she's you know in her

address that year her presidential address um you know she said you know this is this is evidence that would be nobody would question uh it's so strong the St statistical you know the the the quality of the evidence is so strong that if it were in any other field nobody would question this yes but people people reject it and they don't even want to see the evidence they just they reject they they don't even want to confront the EV it's fasc and every Elite University from the ryin Center at

Duke for I think that was 1931 to 1960 and then you have SRI you know know in the late 60s early 70s you have the Princeton anomalous research lab you have Washington Washi St Louis with McDonald Douglas they had a parapsychology program you have a lot of these Elite universities pretty open-minded when it comes to kind of Mind Over Matter effects and remote viewing and you talk to anybody from those programs and they all come out saying yeah we're pretty sure they're

like weak effects they're hard to instrumentalize you know that's hard to turn in we we can't turn them into math we're on the we're in the Stone Age In this stuff but it's real it's like definitely real I've got you know I've got some kind of contrarian opinions about why they say that the effects are small or why they get they think they get small I want to hear your contrarian opinion well I think they're very often using the wrong conceptual Frameworks understanding this stuff I mean I think you as you probably know from hints in

important Beyond just training remote viewers that you know maybe maybe maybe that's what remote viewers are really seeing they're seeing that feedback in the future that's a really interesting point and and the thing is if you went at it if you studied this stuff with that in mind what kind of different results would you get you know I think people you know from the start of psychical research you know the the the this was presumed to be telepathy that was the model that was introduced by Frederick Myers in

1882 uh and the societ for psychical research you know collected all these Amazing Stories amazing mountain of data basically and it was all interpreted in this mode of telepathy at that point precognition was not even thinkable um uh and there was this new new technology the telegraph which provided this nice metaphor for understanding these effects you know uh and so you know they uh psychical research and then early ESP research kind of carried that forward

and telepathy was dominant model until the television age okay so the television age in the second half of the of the 20th century oh you know it got reconceptualized and this kind of older vague idea of Clairvoyance got turned into the dominant kind of framing for psychic phenomena you know remote viewing that's television you know that's it's it's just T it's taking another um technology from the culture and applying it and using it to help

understand some kind of psychic effect but the thing is if that's not really what's going on then your results are only going to get you so you know you're only going to get uh you're not going to get the best results if that's if that Paradigm is dominating your thinking you're going to miss a lot of evidence that didn't fit within that Paradigm and uh and you're not going to be studying it in the most effective way um so you know that's my

again that's my contrary in opinion A lot of people will throw tomatoes at the TV set at the computer when they when they see me say that I mean people in remote you know who do remote viewing you know very much favor the idea that you know their Consciousness is non-local and that they are traveling across space or seeing you know things across space but uh I think there's compelling reason to to think that this is a this is a temporal relationship well I spoke to how put off who ran the Stargate the

psychic fire program for the CIA for a very long time about your hypothesis that actually it's precognition you're accessing a future knowledge State and that your feedback that the target was right so say you drop a Russian nuclear base getting confirmation that that was actually correct might be essential to actually the accuracy of the remote viewing in the per first place because you're not just yet remote perceiving anything and he seemed open to it so I I I don't know you know the fact that he's open to I mean he's as deep as anybody on this stuff scientifically so that's

that's a good sign for you but I guess in the case of like a random event generator or like you know affecting a random quantum mechanical process with your mind how would that fit in with sort of you know it wouldn't be like you'd have a pre- knowledge of the result or something well there's two answers of that one is you know PK doesn't need to be any doesn't need to be related to precognition I mean there's there's a lot that we don't know about about uh the mind and its abilities and

effects of of biological systems on things in the vicinity you know there are a lot of possibilities there but I I'm not a believer in this construct of sigh you know this this it was it was that was originally a word that was just to denote a black box I mean this is what we don't know about let's call it sigh but like was originally for the the Greek letter for the for the wave function for well equation yeah but um but in parapsychology it just sort of became this black box term but it like

all blackbox terms it got reified and people like took it oh there's this thing called Sai and it's this force or or whatever and people treat it as a thing rather than just as open question and calling these dis these different things Sai is itself biasing people towards towards thinking that they're going to find one force or something that that that explains all these things and I don't think that's the case at all I mean I think precognition uh has I'm you know anticipating that

there's going to be a a uh not that amazing uh physical you know process mechanism that can explain it but but PK effects may be explained very differently may have a very different uh something very different going on there but the second answer though is that there is the possibility that um research on PK effects is uh is influenced by the experimenters

precognition and this is an argument that's been made by Ed May um I don't know if you've talked to him before but he he sort of took over the he from H put off he sort of uh LED that program or the research arm of that program the sort of its final decade until it was you know uh Declassified and supposedly ended in 1995 don't think it ever ended but uh the argument he he has made is that you know he's he's not a believer in the PK stuff he thinks that the micro

PK results that's that is the effects supposed effects of Consciousness on random number generators uh can be explained by um uh I forget the term he uses but he has a good term for oh decision augmentation uh that pre pre the the researchers precognition is drawing them to start an experiment or start a trial at a time when the random numbers are just GNA are going to generate the results that he wants or he

here or she wants um I think uh that is I haven't looked at the the PK data so I can't speak to that but I I think that decision augmentation theory is potentially hugely important across science um because this if this is an effect then what kind of effect is this uh in any kind of biophysical experiment or in the Health Sciences or in Psychology um uh it could be a huge

hugely important factor who knows in the in the replication crisis that we're seeing I it's uh I I think it's a a really important question that uh I hope some people will start sort of I hope some people will take that ball and run with it and and really uh investigate that potential but you have to you have to accept pre first that's that's the barrier that we're up against right now yeah yeah it's a big barrier um when it comes to kind of remote viewing anything in the future or these prophecies or

predictions sometimes it feels like looking uh at like a bunch of alternative possible timelines and you know you're not you're not looking at you know the definite thing you know and so like how would you explain that I'm not a believer in alternative timelines okay you are you're a block un block Universe guy and I think that that timelines I do and I don't this is a you know this is its own conversation and

and you know we can we can go down the rabbit hole on that but um that's the hang-up yes the hang-up is Free Will that's why people don't want to think about this stuff yeah but I think we need to be brave and confront you know confront this idea and that means temporarily taking your belief in free setting aside and just see what see what the data shows us and uh I I think that it's it's kind of a copout to resort to sort of the many

worlds and the multiple timelines and and all that um because in actual reality if the everettian many worlds um interpretation were correct uh it means that there's infinite M par universes there's not just one where you know I got in the car accident and one where I didn't I mean there's a million not there's infinite variations there so it immediately makes kind of absurd this idea that oh I'm

seeing an alternative timeline I mean how how do you how do you even constrain that how do you make that into any kind of right scientifically testable idea and I I I find it I find it implausible and uh and not interesting honestly I think it's much more interesting to think about how an actual future is is inflecting or influencing us and sending us messages but in a way that we

misinterpret so that we so that those time Loops happen uh and this gets back to the Freud stuff because you know Freud was a theorist of symbolic transformation how uh how events in our lives and he thought that they were advented our past lives got not past lives but I mean our prior history get transformed symbolically and our thoughts get transformed symbolically into dreams well what I argue in time loops and and

my second book precognitive Dream Work and the long self that uh it's actually be precisely because of those time Loops that have to be fulfilled that we as freely willed beings only get information from the future indirectly obliquely symbolically um and that's why there's this kind of ironic logic to fate that's why Fate has this kind of edle logic where we fulfill prophecies precisely by

trying to evade them where you know outcomes in our future uh we don't see clearly we see them um uh symbolically transformed we misunderstand them and those misunderstandings get us to take the actions that lead to them but that doesn't mean that we're faded to like you know if we have a dream about a a car accident we're we're going to have that car accident very often we I dream about a car accident and there are tons of examples of this that I've collected

from from readers in my books but also in the literature you know people will have a dream about a car accident and they'll come to the intersection where they like oh my God I dreamed about car accident here and they'll suddenly be put on alert and they'll just narrowly avoid a car accident so so yes the obvious interpretation is that oh oh my we I took a different timeline you know the dream was showing me one timeline I took a different one the simpler explanation is that Collision in your dream was kind

of a what if it was kind of like a close call and you and you you know when we have a close call we always imagine in our heads what would have happened we you know those that catastrophizing thinking uh and especially after we have a close call we like oh my God that could have you know I we could have collided I think it's those thoughts those thoughts about near misses uh any thought that gives that that reminds you of your survival that's the kind of stuff that reflexes back in time in your Tess brain

uh and so yeah we have dreams about catastrophes that we in reality nearly miss or avoid um but there's a way in which our brain focuses on those kinds of near misses and situations that in one way or another remind us of our survival because makes perfect sense right that precognition would presentiment would arise uh as part of our sort of as you know darwinian reality of of of survival

believes that you know um your perception itself has to be Fitness selected it has to actually be kind of perceptually adaptive in a way that it's it's not adaptive for you to actually see the substrate of underlying reality and then you have this other guy I believe his name is Dean buano your brain is a time machine and he talks about how our brains have to sort of uh on life time scale they we can't work on

these sort of cosmic time scales and you touch on this with this concept of sort of the long body or the the the you know the Tesseract mind so what what what does this mean is there there's sort of this more primordial version of us that we're interacting with and we interact with it when it's sort of these life and death you know like yeah that of it makes sense that you would you would get the prophecy about the car crash or whatever because that part of you doesn't want to get the car crash or something that's like the most adaptive naturally selected thing for you to know

how how does this work well yeah that's a great question and I think there it gets to this kind of dichotomy we talked about between the the classical computer of the brain that's that's you know it really the classical computer of the brain has to be it has to be controlling our actions right in this moment and no other moment like you you know you don't want to be completely dysfunctional you know you have to you know your body your senses

and actions and everything happening in your body has to be coordinated to be most effective at this instant in time so that classical computer system of the the brain you know is really it's it's doing that um but there's these probably Quantum processes that are helping um for instance syncing it up you know like you have nerves that that travel up the length of your of of your body like you step on a attack um that has to be synchronized with the

immediate you know the the the visual signal of the tack which is immediate because your eye is right here um and so this is the the Benjamin libbit work back in the 70s and 80s his those landmark studies that he did showing that there's this this this neural sinking of of all these different uh uh uh sensory all this different sensory information that has to has different flight times you know through the brain so it all syncs up but it puts us uh like a half second in our past

according to that prediction but we're not half second in our past uh so something Quantum is probably going on there to readjust then uh these Sensations and coordinate them but then the what you're what you're asking about though is those those longer time frame kind of precognitive or PR sentimental signals those have to sort of inflect us and you know Orient us and maybe impact our decision- making for instance or what we think of as our Free Will um so

it's on on that kind of level that that precognition is operating and there again it's why it's always outside of conscious awareness our Consciousness you it's always in it's not something we're aware of because it's not right now it's not part of the now that the classical brain is constructing um out of our experience um I don't know if that makes sense but it's it's another reason why I'm I'm impatient with with

people who keep throwing the word Consciousness around in these in these contexts of psychic phenomena also you know UFOs and stuff everyone wants to say Consciousness conscious is all about Consciousness I I think that that's a distraction and it and it doesn't help us see how these things actually work um but as you mentioned Donald Hoffman yeah his work is really interesting I I I don't know what to make of it I I feel like it's overstated a little bit you know I feel like

um he's kind of over I think I think a lot of scientists sort of do this when they when they want want their ideas to to to have legs uh I I I know I myself in my writing I kind of overstate things a little bit CU you want you know have an interesting idea and you want to see if it sticks sticks to the wall you know like throwing spaghetti at the wall or whatever um I don't know if I if I would go with go as far as he does and saying that we don't perceive reality at all you know he sort of Likens our

perception to icons on the computer screen you know that that that what we're seeing is the fitness what I forget how he phrases it we're seeing the fitness uh value of of of things I don't know about that I I think he's partly right certainly um but whether he's completely right I don't know so do you believe we're in some sort of maybe platonic cave and we're seeing something that is is not at all like reality and you know occasionally

we sort of Glimpse the light or do you think we're seeing something that's just just perceptually adaptive but you know yeah I don't know I feel like it's somewhere in between you know I think I think there's something slightly cave like about yeah about our experience but I'm I I wouldn't go so far as to kind of that sort of extreme kind of Gnostic view that that that we're we're in this you know complete bubble uh Truman Show kind of well we the gnostics are you

familiar with RZ ver do you know so you know he talks about kind of this simulation hypothesis the Multiverse simulation and I do I'm sympathetic to this idea that maybe you your Consciousness is being ported into this sort of sensory reductive you know 3D time bound world and that there is this more primordial self that the Greeks would you know say you experience in forms of sort of noesis you forget yourself when you get when you're born and you know this sort of anamnesis

process and then through these you know mystery rituals that all these guys used to perform at like ucus they experienced their primordial selves and so you think that that's a possible model where you occasionally get these sort of downloads from on high from your sort of higher self but uh mostly you just have access to the kind of sensory stuff but the senses are actually uh reductive on a default state of possibly greater omniscience they're not sort of productive which is uh you know Aldis Huxley William James they

would be sort of fans of this model as well right the reducing valve model yeah um well yeah what you're describing is you know what Mystics throughout throughout time have said that because they have these experiences of higher Consciousness or whatever and and sort of there's this kind of implicit model that what we're living on a day-to-day basis is this kind of reduced constricted constrained um uh thing I mean I think the but again we have you know to just survive in the world you

know if we were going through life in this mystical State we'd immediately get eaten by a predator you know it's like you you've got to you've got to deal with uh the real world and and and then sometimes you know have these expanded uh experiences those are equally important but I think it's sort of it sells us sells that that pragmatic um reality short to say oh it's like living in a cave you know it's like you know we need to we need to have

reduced pragmatic Focus uh a lot of the time you know and yeah we we can't be living our higher self all the time so this notion that we're evolving towards like always living a higher self kind of state I'm not I'm I don't quite buy that kind of evolutionary view in that sense how do UFOs play into all of this I know UFO in some sense LED you into this work yourself do you think UFOs have anything to do with the the model overall of time

that you have um yes and no I there's a common uh offard claim nowadays in the UFO world that and it goes along with this idea that oh it's really about Consciousness and stuff an offered idea that that somehow our precognitive experiences and synchronicities and all those things are somehow part of the phenomenon or part of this UFO phenomenon which I think is totally not true I mean precognition is

intrinsic to who we are as as creatures and I think it's intrinsic to all life probably um and people sort of think that they're all part of one thing um maybe because they get interested in them together as I did uh you know you you have one remarkable experience it's going to lead you to reading about other remarkable experiences and uh and certainly openness to certain kinds of experiences you know if you're open to seeing UFOs you're probably open to your

dreams and and and having pre cognitive dreams and so on but I don't think there's any intrinsic connection there um but but the the UFO question is is hugely interesting to me and uh and I think this time Loops model is like really possibly very important I'm a I'm a I'm totally in agreement with Mike Masters who I know you've yeah um interviewed that that uh

the strongest hypothesis I think about what is underlying the the real core of the UFO phenomenon I mean I think there's a lot of a lot of deception and and scop stuff going on too but the real core there probably involves you know very likely involves time traveling uh humans or involves time traveling technology at the very least yeah um and if so then all the things that we can start to

understand about time travel just from our own experience and from uh that is say our own PR cognitive experiences and all these things that we were talking about like time loops and the ways in which stuff from the future influences stuff in the past and H in a way that that history is self-consistent uh those same factors are gonna are going to be really important in uh in time travel and in

our development of time traveling technology um we already talked about the the quantum computer sort of step towards that um I think that that that technology of communicating across time uh is going to kind cause an acceleration technological acceleration um towards more advanced technology and towards probably solving these problems of of physical time travel um but uh

yeah I think I I think time travel is is hugely important and so so yeah I mean if there's a way if there's a place to look for time travel besides Quantum time traveling information it's probably the UFO phenomenon maybe there's something about biology that is a porting of something that's a little more probabilistic or Quantum and maybe biology becomes vestigal in the future and actually what we're interacting with is some sort of kind of Quantum Code or something that's Unbound by biological

constraints because I think about your model of time loops and it's you're kind of glitching into some like information layer of the future or whatever but the Mike Master's thing is like you're literally seeing these like beings that are like from the future and those are two very distinct things and you could find some sort of like you know biological matter transporter but maybe more likely we just become the sort of information systems or something that can you know I don't know time edit at will and you know kind of show up at

will and almost be more information theoretic like in a John Wheeler model of the universe or something than you us yeah there's all kinds of possibilities I mean I'm just um one of the you know like one of the premises like we talked about the the peripheral you know it's like at one point in the story this you know guy in the future the user in the future uh sends so it's the character in the 20th century she happens to work at the local 3D print shop okay and so he sends her in

instructions to 3D print this this you know future technology headset that enables her to like visit the future in an avatar and stuff like that um but that idea of trans you know 3D you know printing out information in the present based on information from the future is going to be part of this you know this halfway house basically to time travel you know in the sense that you know you could have say a drone operator in the future you know you know control a drone

in the past and you know that's been built from future technology but but but with a present capabilities of a 3D printer you could essentially have a future uh you know time drone ESS uh flying around that's under the control of someone in the future you know via uh an existing you know 3D or the existing Quantum uh server you know so we're going to start seeing really interesting phenomena the moment the first quantum computers come online and

of course the idea that maybe they're already online you know in deep black programs somewhere you know there's that you know it's a it's just it's an interesting variant of the idea of of a a flying saucer coming through a wormhole you know into the past you could have a flying saucer that's been built in the present based on information from the future and that's maybe even controlled by someone in the future via a Quantum server um there's just all kinds of possibilities that I think we need to start thinking

realistically not just about you know these high strangeness UFO encounters but think about what are the possibilities what are the things that we're going to do when we have these Technologies you know maybe in a few years yeah you know what are the effects that's going to have on society what are the phenomena that we're going to start encountering in daily life because of this new relationship to our future when we have quantum computer servers that we leave plugged in you know for years decades centuries um that's going to be

transformative um you know if anything that you know I think of the the idea of the singularity you know the you know the ort of brink after which human history becomes unpredictable well I think that that you know it's not spiritual machines that are going to do it it's it's this time traveling technology that comes from uh or this informational time traveling technology that comes from quantum computer servers that are going to allow this this new relationship to our

future and it could be incredibly destabilizing you know it's like the first people to use these devices are going to get very rich by by you know predicting stock fluctuations and and all that um so I don't know but when we talked earlier about somebody having a premonition of a car crash and that being sort of adaptive because that's based on this like really important survival mode for them that you know or you know they have to be cognizant of that when that you know the event possibly is about to occur so they swerve out or whatever I

had the thought that on a kind of a more macro scale when it comes to humanity these UFOs seem to show up consistently around nuclear sites yeah and so if you were trying to find kind of the Archimedes lever like the point of most leverage for affecting timelines when it came to humanity he would probably go straight to nuclear sites yeah and so maybe that points to these things pushing us towards some teeology right um yeah I mean the the point of of

time travel is or one of the points of time travel is not going to be you people think of this in terms of again changing timelines and stuff I think that's that's not the way to think about it I think you know you can go into the past and you can do stuff in the past and have effects and you can plant the seeds for things that you will then harvest in the future so you know you can go into the past and and uh affect things in a shape things in a way that that will then pay off for you you can plant the way I put it in my second book

is you can plant seeds in the past for a better tomorrow you know like so the a simplistic example that that um that I use it's you know it there's all kinds of problems with this thought experiment but just you know go with me you know so say you have a quantum computer server that's um that you leave plugged in from the you know from now until you know for centuries um and it's connected to uh 3D printers big 3D printers industrial 3D printers and say say you're working for uh you're an

astronomer in the 22nd century uh and you discover uh an asteroid that's that's on collision course for Earth um and it's you know you've you've detected it too late to to intervene to to send a rocket to deflect the the asteroid oh but you have a Quantum mura that's connected to uh 3D printers on the moon's Far Side say and you you know you send an instruction to print out a

uh you know 30 years in your past and launch the rocket and and so it you know when you detect the the asteroid but there's a rocket right there that that destroys it because you launched it in in the past um that that kind of scenario there's all kinds of ways in which that kind of logic uh can be incredibly useful for obvious reasons you know not just in in amassing huge wealth but in you know

solving problems that that ordinarily take too long to solve if you can you can recruit the past to help you solve that problem um or or say you know uh pandemics you know say uh uh there's this you know you know a new you know virus is is discovered that's you know super deadly but you can you know and it's going to be a huge pandemic unless you do something quickly well you can you know use you know again use the same

setup to do kinds of all the needed trials and and Drug development you know 10 years in the past uh so that the the vaccine is ready by the time the the virus you know presents itself that kind of you know using the past to to solve problems in the present that wouldn't be soluble otherwise um because they just take too long you know not just because it's a computer not just because it's a mathematical problem that requires too many years of number crunching but

because you actually need people and machines and infrastructure to deal with the problem uh that takes time uh so that kind of thing again this is why I see this this kind of intermediate technology towards physical time travel being like super important in coming years um with with Quantum computation there are other models of physical time travel that involve uh possibly

manipulation of gravity which is very related to Sure Time in the general relativity well that's the next thing that's that's that's what will come next you know and and there you're not limited to going you know sending information back in time just to when you turned on your quantum computer and there you're you're free to to travel as far back as you want in time potentially you know whether you're using a wormhole or a what I call a Time Shi which would be you know some kind of are you familiar with de glocka do you know what that is no this German the Nazi Bell

where uh you create a you know super high voltage uh uh o o over a short distance and it's this bell with a ceramic internal chamber where you know there are two ways to change gravity to affect gravity you know enough mass and enough energy we think of not you know being able to have the capacity to have enough energy to actually affect gravity in a real way but if you have enough Mass you can obviously do it if you have tons and tons of energy you might be able to do it with high really high voltages you know electric plasma thrusters so there's this rumor of this like Nazi werv vafa program under SS

officer Hans commer and he had this sort of bell-shaped object and the guys that were working on this reportedly were Ernest growz who was head of the SS medical division so that probably means you know would imply that there are people involved right and Walter gerlock who was a a gravity uh physicist he was a physicist very focused on gravity and you would put somebody inside the chamber and you would uh pour the whole thing with it so much voltage that uh You' create kind of a different inertial reference frame inside the chamber so

like every second on the outside would be a thousandth of a second on the inside you'd slow time down just like in a black hole in general relativity the closer you get to a black hole the more time slows that you know gravitational source and you walk out you know and all of a sudden you're a thousand years in the future so it's a sort of wacky model but I got really interested in this um you know mid-century inventor this kind of gravity inventor named um Thomas townzen Brown right and kind of the subtext of his whole story is actually that he's extremely interested in time travel and that he thinks that gravity

manipulation leads to time travel and so I I find that kind of a very fascinating little you know yeah maybe part of the yeah maybe it's the next the intermediate step before you know pure pure information transfer Allah the movie The fly or something area um that's cool yeah do you think um you know like uh I I think about have you read like like the lectures by schroen Jer like what is life no I have not I

have I have it I have not read it yes because he he talks about these per these AP periodic crystals in the DNA that are somehow really important uh information receptacles for and is it's sort of speculative and I think he doesn't really have like a really good good model for this at the time I I don't even think we had the double helical structure of DNA at time it was 1944 right so he's talking about this and I think he what he's sort of implying is that like that's like the that's the

port between the sort of quantum world and the you know more biological world or something well that's really interesting you say that because i' I've you know thinking back to this idea of like 3D printing something based on information from the future I've you know I'm totally speculative but what if DNA is that is that is like a Quantum server and that you know that's DNA controls you know the protein you know uh proteins and all that so what if what if that is essentially what we are is 3D

printed uh you know drones essentially based on information from our evolutionary future you know it's it it just sort of opens up uh that's interesting possib you know Maxwell's equations work forwards just as they work backwards and the more I get deep into the UFO thing the only time the door shuts on me is around this model of what's called extended electrodynamics it's not around like UFOs are real like that's being pushed clearly but there's

this like secret science component of all of this and I think it's like this extended electrodynamics this idea that actually a more faithful adherence to the original 21 Maxwell's equations and not the kind of compression of Oliver heavy side into these four Vector calculus equations might actually represent you know true reality more and actually uh allow for all these exotic wave types outside of the transverse herzan wave and so it might explain some of this sort of you know this eye stuff

that's like spooky action at a distance that's kind of kind of weird because you don't get the typical you know electrons pairing off sort of thing or attenuation over SpaceTime or through material or whatever um but there's one of these wave types I realize this is a crazy rabbit hole but one of these wave types is a called Helio coidal and it's shaped like DNA and so there's there's this guy named Constantine M and he's in the black forest of Germany and he's studying you know uh this extended

version of electrodynamics on plants and he thinks that you know it can affect DNA in these sort of super and you had this guy Luke Monier who's this French Nobel Prize winner at the end of his life if he was saying you know electromagnetism is really important for communication information transfer within DNA Within These aquous Nano structures in DNA I have no idea whether any of this is true but DNA is it's so clearly this information receptacle like and that's clearly what it's there for I mean you can you can cold store semantic

information on it like from a use it like a computer server it just takes a while to retrieve so that's it's just fascinating yeah I want to know you know I'm not in the you know I'm not a physicist and I'm not certainly not a a Quantum physicist and I'm not a Quantum biologist so you know I'm at a certain limit with my understanding but I you know it's speculatively it's fascinating and I would love to know more about the quantum uh Quantum Computing processes or uh aspects or capabilities of DNA

yeah because it seems like that's that could be key totally do you do you what do you think of John Wheeler because I'm I'm a big fan of his and I've heard you talk about him in other interviews and to me he's he comes closest to my model of the world with the sort of information theoretic approach yeah totally I I yeah I love wheeler and I'm particularly fond of that his U diagram are you familiar with his uh that that diagram he wrote you know with the U it's kind of more of a glyph you know of

the the U with an where one tip of U is the big bang and the other tip is an eyeball staring back at the big bang and you know that I think is right I mean I think he's he's and he was working with uh not quite retrocausation he was working with uh the that kind of model that well you can affect a system by deciding whether to measure it as a particle or wave you know that kind of delayed that delayed choice is sort of a

that again it's kind of I think a conceptual halfway house to True retrocausation um but if you add if you add real retrocausation in there which I think there there are some very compelling models uh of of real retrocation I mean Yakir aov uh his two-state vector formalism and um uh ideas Kramer yeah I mean kram is a bit different um it's a handshake it's a handshake but it doesn't I don't think

Kramer model really allows like affecting the path in a way that that I think aov's model might um anyway if you you add to Wheeler's u a real retrocausal um interpretation of quantum mechanics uh plus all the time time traveling technology and all the those possibilities that that become more and

more potentially prevalent in the universe as the universe ages you know like you have the potential of of truly causing you know retr causing the big bang you know in a in a big loop and I I love that model um and if time travel becomes possible at any point in the future it's inherently always been possible right right which is fast right well it's if it becomes possible at any point of the future then then Time

Travelers have always been here and could be present at the beginning of the universe and it would explain the alien thing and it would explain all this sort of like Forbidden Archaeology stuff you know you have like um the anti theor mechanism and all sorts of like precociously Advanced architecture from the past and you know all the alien mythology and lore you know it would just be these sort of time editing you know uh future versions of ourselves that have figured out time travel and are maybe trying to sway things towards

a specific teleology what you know also interests me is is the possibility that the search for dark matter and dark energy could um that this may have something to do with that that that you know what if you know what if these trans temporal effects what if the effects of massive uh massive time traveling technology or wormholes or or something

are affecting the mass of of galaxies in their future and that that somehow affects things in the present that we can't detect oh that's I just um you know again I'm I I I'm beyond my level of of of of cosmological understanding but it just seems like you know there's retrocausation and time travel are the missing are the things is missing from our understanding of so many phenomena right now I feel like there's going to be a

uh there's gon to be a paradigm shift there's got to be a paradigm shift um that that where people wake up and go oh well I think you know Stephen Spielberg who I think is very clued into all the UFO stuff has you know since he was I think a kid he was super into UFO obviously made et he made you know Close Encounters of the Third Kind he's told this guy Robert leafield who I think created Deadpool that you know um UFOs are like what do you think is more likely that these are like you know from

Zeta reticuli proximus centari or that they are future selves sort of guarding our our you know our present and making sure that certain timelines get Su stain and I just think that is the clearest you know kind of aams Razor explanation and it is it is Paradigm shifting and it's it's bizarre to kind of conceive of um and yet it's it's very interesting and it would o involve factions it would involve maybe different version depending on which type of universe you believe in it might involve different

versions of the future trying to sustain themselves or something well or just different you know F yeah different future faction you know there doesn't need to be a unified sure you know civilization in our future I mean we're very divided now and we and we you know we fight amongst ourselves and and countries are at war with each other you know that could happen across time time too you know you could have uh you know I don't know just to take some example you know Russian Time Travelers in in in

in 50 years going back in time to the United States and meddling in ways that will benefit them in the future and just as we you might have American Time Travelers you know doing say you we we'd have like multiple uh factions you know intervening in each other's histories and what what do you think of Philip K dick you write about him fromwhere you kind of talk about him and you talk about who's a massive fan of his and I'm big fan of both but I also

think their worldview is just so fascinating and and specifically Philip K dick you know I think people don't fully realize how real he thought a lot of this stuff was and how autobiographical a lot of his stories are uh you bring up valis but I think he even gave a speech in Mets in France in like 1976 or S where he goes no like the man the High Castle was actually a real timeline where you know they're these simulators and they simulated this version of World War II where the Japanese and the Germans won and they

you know cut America in half and then they decided to rewind the clock because that you know didn't quite work out yeah the the simulators were re rewinding the JFK assassination multiple times trying to make it work out yeah it's it's fascinating yeah no he was he was a fascinating character and and definitely troubled I mean you know he had a million different versions of reality going on and and was you know pretty [ __ ] up guy in a lot of ways but brilliant and and uh and probably of you know he was the

only artist that I've like studied in my you know work on artist and writers who really understood and basically accepted what I'm arguing which is that artists are influenced by their future I mean that that he he knew he was a precog he um he was precognitive and it wasn't just these W weren't just empty claims I mean he you know it's very clear in his writing he sometimes writing about his own future experiences and you can see actually you can go back to his letters

I mean he was very open at writing about his dreams and stuff in letters and you can see even examples of recognition that he didn't detect that's wild like what's an example of that so that shows it's not all this crazy signaling where he's just trying to act like there's an example that I write about in new book um that he in so say by my argument in in one of the chapters of my new book is that you know he and jacqu ble were kind of prec cognizing each other's work and

that in fact veis is Val um because they both read each other's work they were both writing uh in 1974 1975 that's when uh valet was writing the invisible college and that's when dick was writing the first draft of what became veis it was at that point uh I mean they published fortunately they published that first draft postumus it's a radio free albamu um but he was he

already had this this this word had come to him veis and and it and this story that he wrote around this idea is all to be found in jacqu Val's book um this the idea of a teaching like satellite and the idea of of of people receiving you know awakened people receiving signals from some uh distant star that are designed to to you know uh uh save us from some Peril or whatever

there's so many parallels between these two books but neither of them could have read each other at that point um so the argument is a little complex but but yeah there's a convergence there a precognitive convergence I think um but uh the one of the examples of of Phil Dick's many precognitive dreams was that around I think this was in dream where

uh there are a lot of details of this dream but it was like there was these these dommin these small alien creatures um I think came out of a spaceship gave him some piece of technology uh but there was another part of the dream where he was he was shown a a a a brownie I think or or that that had been scored by a fork around around its edges and it was somehow a relief map okay but it was to do with this oh and and

someone told him oh don't take that it belongs to um Betty Fields he he miss he misremembered the name Betty Hill as Betty field and he thought oh this is a reference to the UFO abduct um so 3 years later he's like super excited when he sees Close Encounters uh and he doesn't make a connection to that dream but a dream of like diminutive childlike creatures coming out of a spaceship a a piece of food that's scored by a fork around the edges I mean that's like that's the scene in Close

Encounters where he Fork scores you know mashed potatoes around the edge you know and it's a relief map turns out to be a relief map essentially of of of Devil's Tower um and and idea and that all being linked to a UFO someone who's had a UFO encounter I think it's it work that's the way precognitive dreams work they they work on associations you know they don't present something literally but they present you know a set of associations around this core thing I think he was prec cognizing Spielberg's

movie that's fascinating that people prec cognize movies that way all the um uh yeah so yeah he was but there's so many examp examples like that and a lot of them he was aware of you know he'd have this dream and then oh my God the next day you know this this thing happens it was just like in his dream and you know he's not making this stuff up I have a really weird actually personal example that's just came out I'll figure out whether I'm gonna cut this or not but I I was hanging out with a friend and he was like man like you

should go to France he just set it out of nowhere and I was like why why should I go to France man he was like I don't know I kind of see you dating a French girl or something and I was like interesting okay and he he was like my last girlfriend he knew her and he was like yeah she was you know British but she kind of had like this American mentality like I think you need like a EUR true European ment whatever and he's like I'm I'm convinced of this because I just saw this movie um Before Sunset made by Richard linklater and the main

character's name is Jesse and um and I'm like man I love that movie I love Richard linky he's amazing I'm like I that movie is incredible and he's like yeah I kind of see you with this like you know the character like Julie Del or whatever I'm like she's awesome she's be I wouldn't be down for that and so the next day on a whim I book a trip to France and I end up being there for the whole summer and in Paris I end up dating a girl and then I I come back and

her her name was Selene her name I come back and I watch the movie Before Sunset and her name was Julie delp's character's name isn't that weird that's incredible yeah that's nuts well there's a Time Loop there because he told you this and then yeah literally it affected your actions and and I was thinking about it in the back of my head where I'm like that's kind of why I made the decision which is crazy to make a decision based on that but it felt like you know yep the right synchronicity or something to act on but people that

synchronicity sort of the the go-to term that people use when this kind of stuff happens you know because they don't have a concept of recognition for the most part yeah uh so you know synchronicity will work you know um yeah maybe precognition yeah yeah that's um but and then and then jock Valle is How I Learned of valis because I was at his apartment he was like this is my favorite book so maybe you're on to something but Eric I appreciate your time man this was awesome uh we could probably go much longer but uh this was fantastic and uh everybody go out and

buy from nowhere uh it's a really fantastic book and time Loops thank you very much it's been fun finally finally getting to sit down and talk we made it