Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher Interview

[music] that was started because of UAP. After we turn on the dog whistle, UAPs literally come to us day after day. Jordan, our sonic uh lead, came up to me and Alex like, "Hey, tomorrow we're going to see, [music] you know, a conflict in the sky. We're going to have uh different UAPs are going to come in and there's going to be He sensed that. He he said that. We're seeing multiple classes, three [music] classes today. We saw them all with binoculars andor the naked eye, which is really new for us. We've not

had that experience in the last 5 years. These days, since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects they could mimic and our detection platforms are so well advanced, so we could see a lot more. Then [music] it really is a zoo of options and possibilities. We have three spectrums and we see them on radar. Then we get in a helicopter and go [music] chase them and they evade

right? But they evade us cuz the ground can see them evading from the air. We've never laid eyes on them, right? We're sitting there with binoculars, sitting with uh SER cameras. see them, cannot is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light. I think the the government's conflicted right now. I think they have advanced secret physics and and and knowledge and I agree with you. That they've had probably since at least the end of World War II.

Do you know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not? There certainly is materials knowledge. Materials Well, okay. Material science which involves topological physics or whatever. What I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for [music] everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly. You know, it's like the things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground are the secret science things is the consciousness [music] stuff and it all fits together in this neat thing and then also space aliens and they're from

Zeta reticula and you're like, "Oh, it's easy." And in fact, all of those things could be their own disperate threads. The skies are not classified and we are [music] seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. Mid turn before he could actually turn it to the UAP, the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. to have you, man. I am beyond intrigued

at what you're doing with Sky Watcher. Uh we have a mutual friend Jake Barber who uh gave me the honor and privilege of helping tell his story after Ross Koulthart uh came out as the first person, one of the first people to retrieve uh this craft of non-human origin, an egg-shaped craft. And he mentioned when I was interviewing him that he had this private enterprise he was working on called Skywatcher. Since then, you guys have dropped a couple of really incredible videos. The second of which, I have to say, was pretty

mind-blowing. Each UAP class has different characteristics. Some shimmer, some tumble, [music] some spin, some look like they're alive and they just fly like a living object in the sky. UAPs are extremely hard to image. What is seen with a naked eye is generally not what is seen under camera. Even me, I'm sometimes skeptical like what what you know, what are these guys going to find? And I thought the taxonomy you guys had, nine classes of UFOs that you showed um was really impressive. and you're I think you know pushing the field forward uh with that

categorization and with you know um the sensing techniques you're using. So James, thank you for being here today. Appreciate you. Happy to be here. Uh Jesse and we're on this uh what is this? This the USS Hornet right now. Yeah. On a museum, a floating museum. A floating museum UAP hackathon. So super cool. And uh I guess the the main question I want to start with is how does one get into a private enterprise around detecting UAPs? What's the what's the origin story for you? Well, um so uh I started out in the

military, spent a career there, retired as a sergeant major. Uh retired in 2020 and spent about 23 years uh working for the government, deploying a lot, jumping out of airplanes, doing interesting things and bad places usually. Uh after I retired, I started several companies and some of my companies were contracted by the government to do different uh war game projects. At one of those war war game events in 2021, we had an observation. Uh it turned out to be

class one UAPs and we originally thought that that was a government made, US government made tool. So we're very secretive about it. We protected it and did all the due diligence to kind of make sure that that didn't get out anywhere just in case it was made in America and need to be protected. So that's how we kind of got into it. It was actually by accident. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention I am the, if you will, the the lead operations guy. I'm the guy who who drove the discovery, but I'm not the person I'm not the

pioneer that actually discovered it. Right? So there's there's two pioneers in this field who wish to remain anonymous right now. Uh one is uh Mr. K, I'll say. Okay. And he's a he's a really cool dude. He's like a physicist. makes uh jet engines, flamethrowers, uh works on hot rods, and does physics for fun as well. Like he's really really cool dude. He is actually the first one on our team that figured out that hey, there's UAPs over us and and uh hey, you got to come look at this. And we discovered, okay, there's

something going on here. And if it wasn't for him, we would not have figured out the dog whistle. We have not have progressed where we're at. He it is because of him that we've arrived here. Sounds like an ingenious. Sounds like a cool guy to hang out with. Oh, yeah. He's he's a very very cool dude. Um, and the other one, uh, is Mr. D. He, uh, made a discovery with the signals. So, for a while, we couldn't detect the UAPs with radar. Actually, the radar was detecting them, but not telling us it was detecting And, uh, Mr. D figured out, hey, we can detect signals from these craft and

geollocate them or direction find them in the sky and then put the camera on it and there it is. So those are really the two pioneers that like I feel like it it's not fair if I don't mention them because they are the pioneers here, right? I am merely the person who harnessed their knowledge and their pioneering attitude and capabilities to arrive where we are at today. If this is an advanced species and is smart enough to do what it's doing, they have the upper hand and we are the little ants under the magnifying glass. We had a [music] class 7 UAP. We went

ahead and launched the Hilo to pursue it. Before the Hilo got here, it actually came and hovered right over us. For the first time, we saw a class 7 with a naked eye. It was very glinty, looked [music] metallic. Through our optics, we've always thought it was purple or black. Frankly, the reflections look like uh chrome [music] almost color. So, you mentioned simulating war games and these UAPs show up. Do you think, and obviously you get into speculative territory and, you know, kind of philosophy and I really want to get into kind of the hard data

because that's what you guys sort of specialize in, but you think that might um kind of show that we're living in some sort of threebody problem universe or something where they they don't want us to harm ourselves. You know, they show up around nuclear sites. Uh they seem to um across the US, but even in abroad as well. And does that signal that they don't want us to, you know, blow ourselves up or something or why why do you think they show up around these sort of war games? So, we have some ideas on that and I I have some opinions on that. We'll say, uh, for

example, in 2021, the first time we saw them, we're running a war game for the government. Uh, the deliverable for the war game was tactics and we had a blue team and a red team. The blue team's job was to bring Americanmade, uh, government made and commercial made. um protective systems for blue forces. Think air defense, think counter drone, think other things. And then the red team was again Americanmade as well as oneoff hobbyist type drones, uh aircraft and other things. And and the red team's

job was to penetrate the airspace of the blue team or react cause them to uh be able to basically tactically envelop the blue team and cause them to have a loss. And the blue team's job was to stop that. And uh so we're running this event and I'm up on the roof of a very tall building with two young interns with binoculars looking for drones. Right. So we're up there I think we are two weeks into the project at this point every day 12 hours a day running the war game and we are looking for drones uh as the as

the mission controller project controller if you will. So I can modulate launch now don't launch now or hey uh hey blue team did you guys even pick up on that drone that was just here? So, I'm trying to modulate the the exercise and keep things flowing so we can be effective in developing tactics. And my camera operator, Mr. Ko, was like, "Hey, you have to come see this. There's something going on." Um, so understand, we're up on the roof scanning the sky with binoculars, listening, seeing, and and we see drones, but we don't see this other So, I go down to the truck and he's

like, "Look at this." And he shows me uh the class one formation of seven, the first sighting we had. This was the last day of the event, so we were shutting down a few hours later. And just for the audience, class one, class one's the tetra. So, uh, it's a blackbodied object. It tumbles and spins at a very high rate of speed. We're shooting at about 26 frames per second, I believe. And between each frame, it's changed drastically in its flight characteristics and signature so that we can only we can only see a little bit of it and and we can't really derive the shape. It looks like a tetrahedrin, but it's really hard to say

from the footage we have. Um, it looks like a tetrahedrin that has is wearing a hat. And the hat looks like it's made out of atmosphere. As in uh uh if you have a low a low pressure high pressure differential, you can get vapor, right? As in when a fast moving jet breaks the speed of sound, you see the vapor on the wings. That same effect looks like what we're seeing around the class one. And it basically wears it like um like some kind of field is holding it in place and it's kind of there around it kind of hiding the black body from

from this the the observer if you will. So and then that vapor tends to flash. Uh it catches uh as it's moving kind of violently. It catches the uh the sun's rays I believe and reflects back. So that was actually what he saw was he was looking in the sky for drones, thinking nothing about UFOs, UAPs, or anything else, and saw a flashing and said, "What is that?" Zoomed in and like, "Oh, wow. There's seven of these craft in a tight formation maneuvering on us, right?" And again, I told you I was on the roof with

interns with good ears and good eyes, better than mine. We're not seeing a thing. So the human senses, there was nothing there. But these things flew two or three thousand feet above above us and we had no idea they were there at all. a drone a drone of the same size in the same flight formation would have blaringly obvious glaringly obvious, excuse me. So it would have been so obvious that we couldn't have missed it. So UAP by definition is, you know, Um and it's even broader than UFO because it's aerial phenomena. When you

see these sort of tetrahedron like, you know, things in formation as you're simulating war games, is your first instinct, oh, this is some state-of-the-art technology that's probably Russian or Chinese cuz there's a lot of reasons for them to want to see, you know, the red team, blue team stuff that we're doing at home here in the US, right? Or is your first instinct this is not this is not from here? I'm kind of all over the map, frankly. uh I get conflicting signals if you will from the data we're seeing. Uh none of

the rabbit holes I call them if you go down the hey it's made in America rabbit hole doesn't make any sense. I've been on project and had special programs without telling us bring their secret things to our event. And so when we are exposed to that technology, which has happened several times, it's usually, hey, you signed an NDA. Don't talk about it. Don't share it. Delete that data. They're going to tell your interns. I don't know have a clearance. I know anything. Yeah. And we're just going to write it off and move on. Right. Right. And nobody has done this for the

Right. And uh it should be noted that we go to events and have gone to events over the years where the government has been there already on another project. And we show up day one and they have UAPs all over their event and they have no idea. Because they're not looking for them. They don't know they're there. They're very hard to see. If you don't know how to spot them with your technology, you're not going to be able to even see them or or acknowledge that they're in your airspace. So it's either adversary or NHI, right? I would take it I would take it a step further and say it's not either or

It could be both. Right. And I would also offer that what we are seeing my observations and and my team's observations are that whoever or whatever is controlling these is probing our capabilities. So it's not like uh you know if I see a class one it doesn't just stay in a straight azmouth and fly north to south like it's was already flying. Okay. No, it um approximates us at the edge of our active telemetry systems like a radar and jammers and other equipment that may or may not be present during whatever

kind of event we're running. It will approximate on the edge of that effective bubble and then fly through the um fly through the the bubble of effect. So, they're putting themselves in beam of our systems. And there's very few reasons why you do that from a defense perspective. They're gathering information probably. I mean, there's there's not a whole lot of reasons why you would put yourself if I have the secret stealth technology. If I have an F-35, am I going to fly it to Russia and buzz Moscow and get on their radars and let

them quantify what my F-35 looks like? I would I would I'm not an Air Force guy, but I would imagine no. I imagine that would be dangerous. Not because they're getting shot down. That's obviously a problem, but also because now they know precisely how I look on their radar, which means they can weaponize that to detect me in the future, right? As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mudwater

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delicious energy. So, it's like the that whole thing, the Chinese spy balloon of uh you know, I think it was 2023, January 2023, where you had this balloon. It was flying over the illusian island chains in Alaska. And I think it was probably uh figuring out the limits of our radar detection because that's where we had our ICBM detection method, state-of-the-art stuff. And so if you have this balloon, you can figure out, you know, what's reflecting back, you know, at what distance are we actually picking up, you know, where, you know, where they are.

Um, and that's that's really valuable, right? And then it ends up flying over, I think, Montana where you obviously have Malmstrom and all these, you know, other kind of Minutemen bases. So, uh, that's interesting. So when you say it's kind of a false dichotomy adversary and does that mean the NHI could be adversary? Does that mean Russia, China are somehow partnered with the NH? Like your mind goes into all these different possible kind of you know variations or permutations of that. Do you guys have kind of a base case there or

No. So there's too many variables really to understand. We we have five years of data, terabytes of radar, imagery, video, photos, signals, intelligence, if you will, RF, we've collected, direction finding, all this different all these different categories of data. Um, and even with that kind of data and that kind of time, we don't have enough data yet to tell us the answer. And I would offer the reason for that is we're not running scientific test events, right? There's a distinct differentiator there.

Right now, we're running an operation, right? An operation means I have just enough personnel to man the equipment to do the task and then we're going to uh uh record what they collect while they're running that operation and doing that task and then we're going to post analyze it. A test event would be I would have extra people with clipboards and whistles and scientists on looking over our shoulders. I'd probably have double or triple the the the the labor footprint and they would have a series of test event uh criteria objectives that were pre-coordinated and they would come out

and ensure that we capture all the data and it's all meticulously done and then after the event we write a report and do the thing I would offer that we strive to arrive at a test event and the reason why we strive is it's very expensive. Yeah, I have to double or triple my cost now in labor to pay people to come out and run a test event, which is very hard to do as a commercial entity. The government does it all the time because the government has endless wealth, right? Uh as a commercial entity, like where does that money come right? Especially as a private enterprise who is not uh selling anything to the government right now or

doesn't have a relationship and and then I would offer it's further compounded by we have been contracted in the past by the government to collect UAP data. Um, and those contracts had nothing to do with UAPs, right? We continued running war game events or other events for the government when all they really wanted was UAP data, right? So, so I say that because uh I don't foresee any future, at least in our current paradigm, where the government's going to say, "Hey, James, hey Skywatcher, uh, we want you to go collect UAP data at whatever location

and give us that." That that has not happened to my knowledge, and I know of nobody that's had a contract like that. Instead, it's can you tell us what's on our airspace? Uh, can you run a war game? Um, so because of that mismatch in reality and the inability of our bureaucracy and decision makers to directly upfront the situation of UAPs, instead they have to be surreptitious about it and talk right, you know, kind of circular about it. that actually befuddles our ability to have a test event or TE um or test

evaluation where we have a large body of people present, right? Yeah, it's frustrating. You have to kind of talk about it in a circular way and you can't just kind of go go to the heart of the matter because it's not even acknowledged at the highest levels of our government still, which is I'd say I'd say it's even deeper than The uh there's really three three categories of people when you talk about UAPs. You have one category which is religious. In the religious category, you'll often find um people who are very intelligent, very smart, like normal people.

Um but they tend on this topic to assign a religious filter to the lens they're looking at it through. Right. And and the challenge there is you're going to get somebody saying, "Well, you're talking to angels and demons. You're you're interfering with Instead of, "Hey, what is the science behind what you're seeing?" Right? And so that lens can be detrimental to us. being effective with that group. The other group is um the group that thinks everything's man-made and made in China, made in Russia, made in the US, right? Um that group also has

a lens and they look at through a national security lens. Yeah. And so they they think, well, Skywatcher, you're revealing national secrets. You're sharing too much detail here and and uh subverting the national right? And so again, they're close-minded because they don't want to discover more because they they feel like they're patriotic and nationalistic, but really um they're anti-science almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the third category of people are people who are truly open-minded who can put aside preconditions, pre-beliefs or things maybe from their upbringing or

personal beliefs and just study science and let let the observations and observables tell them what it is. Yeah. Um, and so you never know who you're going to get, which is why, like I said, we have to be circular. Yeah. In our true objectives when we speak with these officials because they are not prepared to to speak with us in truth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's well said. It feels like it's kind of a sila and correct two failure modes are on the one hand, yeah, maybe being too mired in past dogma, uh, you know, kind of

religious fundamentalist dogma. And then on the other hand, it's like atheist materialist reductionism, nothing, you know, it's all nuts and bolts and there's nothing else or something. It's total close closed-mindedness kind of in both directions or something. And uh an approach that is kind of open-minded and and just data driven I think is is is great. Um, another question this begets and then I want to get into the the core data because I think you guys have a lot of interesting stuff there but um is like so if that's a spectrum the like materialist and the you know kind of

religious thing I think there's also a spectrum of they're all good and they're all bad and uh to me AAM's razor is it's probably just like humans it's probably there's a mix of like there's there's good and there's bad or something and so I don't know if you have a take there but you have like Lou Alzando you know, longtime, you know, OAP, ATIP, you know, modern modern day UFO whistleblower who is for for a while at least was more on kind of the the threat narrative. And then you have Steven Greer who uh you

know has known Jake for a while and um you know he's more on the like I just interviewed him. He's like it's all they're all good and um I would say it's it's probably in between those two, you know, like the answer can't be all good or all bad or something. So I I don't know if you have a take there. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So some of the UAP we've observed just maneuver through the airspace and depart, right? So that's really like hard to determine friend or foe. Who is it? Which is why um for a long time we were very secretive with this. We thought

what we were seeing was red or blue, right? We assumed that it was man-made and it was a weapon system being utilized on us to see what we would observe or learn from it. That isn't necessarily the case in our minds anymore. But that's why we kept everything very secretive to protect national defense. Right? Now that we've understood some new things, we've kind of come out, if you will, and are more open about what we're observing, which is why which is why we're public now. So, um, so the class one just moves through. We don't see any adverse

reactions or really many interactions with the class one. It will dodge our lasers if we shine lasers at it, but that's as much interaction as we'll get from that class at UAP. There are other classes who have interacted with us in a negative manner. Some of them interact I think inadvertently negative with us as in they're emanating uh perhaps through their technology they're emanating uh electromagnetic waves that are and energy that are interfering with our equipment. So it's more of an area effect. So I feel like it's probably not on purpose. And then there's another class that's

actually hit us with a microwave weapon. So actually shut down our systems. Turned everything to the off position. Right. That's a very deliberate. Now, is that defensive or offensive? Right. Is it uh shutting us down to protect itself or shutting us down to uh uh to understand how we'll react? Yeah. It's so interesting. It's like you get into all these philosophical questions of are they prepping the battle space or are they showing us that our our ways are brutish and our war games need to stop or something cuz we might, you know, blow ourselves up. And

it's just really it kind of boils down to philosophy. And so I do think you know gathering data is good. But it does bring up this interesting question which is from my limited experience with you, you seem like very uh like practical and very data oriented and um like just kind of the uh preeminent kind of practitioner like where you you want to find an answer. You don't want to get caught up in you know necessarily like uh crazy kind of philosophical discussions. I've spoken with Jake a

little bit before you and it does feel like this kind of spiritual journey for him. I've spoken with Alex Clo who I know you know is working with you guys as well. It seems like kind of a spiritual thing for him. How do you reconcile that? You know, is it good to have kind of a mix as far as you know the team you want, you know, some guys who are a little more philosophical, some guys who are kind of more executionoriented or how do how do you view that? Because it does feel like a lot of people who get into the UFO subject and study it from the government perspective like OAP with you know Skinwalker Ranch, they come in like

maybe like oh we're just going to figure some stuff out and they come out I don't want to say more religious but more like reverential like where they're like like I you know I went and then I got a little spooked honestly. I had a weird month after I went and it kind of put the fear of God in me with this stuff. So yeah, I guess how do you think about all of that? So let me actually take a step back to our origin story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I'm not a whistleblower. I never held a clearance in the government related to anything or was right onto anything with UAPs whatsoever. My

government experience is frankly just made me the person I am who can who who can be open-minded and observe and report, collect and understand. Right. So it's kind of that's kind of a unique position to be in. Unlike David Gesh or Jake Barber, others Lou Alzando, I have no whistleblower story at all. Everything we've done for Skywatcher is 100% commercial activity. Y that commercial activity might be in support of a government event again unrelated to UAPs because the government has said look thanks thanks for the

observation. We have nothing on this. Right. Mhm. So SkyWatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAP, right? So if you look at Andrew, you look at Khaki, you look at Boeing, Lucky, all these other bigs, um they were started for national defense right? So they started with a preconceived notion of I want to spot a stealth aircraft. I want to spot a MiG 31. I want to spot a supersonic missile. And they work backwards to develop technology for that purpose. M Skywatcher conversely has started with

we're looking at an unknown enemy weapon system or weapon system or thing in the sky. We don't know what it is and we don't have a good signature of what that looks like and we want to detect that. So what we did is we consulted with industry experts, pioneers in their uh academia, some sants and said here is a classified drone threat. Here's the parameters I need to measure. How do we design a system that will actually detect this drone threat and enable us to uh uh understand more about that

So for 3 years we have been developing SkyWatcher as a technology right that basically flips the paradigm on its head. Instead of saying I want to track a MIG 31 we're saying I want to know what that thing is in the sky that nobody knows is there and I want to quantify it. So Skywatcher actually was uh my cover term for UAPs, right? Uh I have briefed VCs, I have briefed uh high net worth individuals, I have briefed the government on SkyWatcher as a technology without ever saying the word UAP

because again when we thought that the UAPs might be a national defense We approached it from a veil of secrecy. And Skywatcher was how we would converse with people about technology development that's really slated for UAP detection and tracking. So we are a technology company rooted in unexplainable unknown physics and trying to understand that from a defense Right? So because of our scientific

approach to this we have a lot of data and we uh we don't have a lot of uh room areas that don't have data. Right? So what I mean by that is as I said in the episodes, uh I'm not a I don't want to have faith in this. I don't want I don't want to have to trust me, bro, and like see, you know, believe you when you tell me. No, show me the data and then I'll know and I'll have knowledge and then I can understand. You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on

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this episode. So on the UAP side in terms of Craft in the Sky, I think we have that right. Um and and I say that the episodes we've produced, why did we do that? Uh, Alex and I had a conversation about this and I was very insistent as was he like we have four four and a half years of Right. It sits on a drive in a certain place and that's also important for the audience to understand that you've been at this for a while. You the public reveal was more recent but you've been at this for almost 5 years Five years. Yeah.

The analysis of that data is ownorous. It's hard to do. It's expensive. And Gary Nolan talked about that today at the hackathon about how hard data is. Even his data that he has, it's very hard and expensive. said there's a real monetary cost to do to conducting the analysis and doing it scientifically. So the data is great to have but analyzing that data is very hard. So instead as an interim we've decided to video and document the activities as they unfold. And so out of at great cost uh to our

own business and uh expense if you will in time and energy and effort we have documented these things so that when the data is released scientifically they have a backstory to understand how the data was collected because again the d the scientific report a white paper um a scientific journal saying a thing is just a snapshot and most people have no clue what that means in terms of general public but if they can re reference a video that covers that place in time of that event unfolding where that data was

collected. Now it tells a whole story. Now you have the anecdotal, you have the literal live imperfect experience as things unfold and then you have the post very scientific data analysis that actually covers down exactly explicitly the analysis of how that event unfolded. Yep. And I want to get into the data. Final question before we dive into the taxonomy and all the classes which I'm really excited about is uh Jake Barber. How did you partner up with Jake and how'd you meet him? So uh I was very cautious for a long

time of who I would meet with or talk with. Uh I actually met with Gary one time and did it in a way that frankly made him very uncomfortable. Okay, because who's this guy meeting me? Like he he was a little freaked out because I was very secretive and very uh spy versus spy type of meetings. Okay. um with Gary and then I also uh ran into some congressional staff members did the same thing of like I I don't want to be on your calendar but I want to like your your congress person is saying publicly that they want this well I have it let's

um but again we kept everything in the IC and very secretive um so first I met Gary and then I met Alex and then after we we met uh Jake and I met when we started forming the the company uh Skywatcher as a as a private entity Cool. All right, let's get into the data. So, uh, you guys just released a video, um, that's just fascinating where you have nine classes of UAP that you described. Uh, can we go through them class by class? Are you cool with that? Yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

And, um, I don't know if you remember all of them off the top. I have a picture on my phone if you know all Okay, I love it. Um, awesome man who knows his craft. Okay, so uh, no pun intended. So, uh, uh, uh, let's go with class one. Uh the tetra does have uh different than just multiband imagery. So electro optical which means daylight camera usually with a little bit more uh

bandwidth if you will. So it can see a little bit more than the human eye can see in in the visible spectrum. Uh then we have middlewave infrared and shortwave infrared. All three of those sensors see the class ones and it registers on all of them. And then also we have radar that we see the class one on. Any typical behavior that the class ones engage with? You mentioned they were in a formation before any any other interesting data that you have on them? Yeah, so the class one tend to fly in groups. We've seen one or two as a singleton, but usually they're in groups

of three to 20. Mhm. Um, and that group tends to fly through in some kind of formation. And it can be everything from four or five craft lock seemingly locked together maneuvering as a group with another group. Uh, and even a third um, all the way from that to looking like a V formation like a stealth bomber would look or a flock of birds, but clearly doing UAP things that don't happen in nature. M um so we've seen them fly through uh in

those formations right over us, right? So like most UAPs, they'll deviate their flight path that we first see them on. Then they'll come into beam of our telemetry systems and we'll see them on a map and we'll know exactly the altitude, air speed, or excuse me, ground speed, radar cross-section. and we'll have all that data on that craft at that time or that group of craft and then we'll follow their flight path as they fly right over us or right next to us or whatever maneuver they're doing. So, we'll see the class ones fly right

Um, you like I said, usually in a in a formation of some kind. Okay, class two, what are we looking at? 40 feet uh uh in length. Um we saw that first in 22 and then in 23 and then we didn't see them again till 25 till February this year. We've seen them in groups of one to three. Um they don't appear to fly in formation

as much as arrive together in a group and then uh depart as singletons. So um really hard to say. We we don't have a we don't know that we have them on radar yet. We have a lot of radar data. M and for example in our February event we had a class 2 which exhibited some very strange behavior which you'd never seen. Uh it actually used the hills to hide from us and came in hide from our primary sensors. So we were watching jellyfish fly through the sky and

started having interference with our systems we believe from the jellyfish. And then we had some weird radar blips to the north of us. And so we started looking to the north and then we saw uh several UAP one of which was a tic tac. so the tic tac we have laser range uh finder returns on it and we have it in multiple spectrums of of imagery but we don't have any sigant from it and we don't have any radar that we know of from it. Do you guys have infrared? Yes. because and you have infrared of

tic tac because yeah I think of Nimmits you know 2004 and I think that the best imagery for that was thermal you know forward looking infrared um 2004 case with David Fraver and you know USS Princeton so well well so what's interesting is the government if they have it have never released the electrooptical view of the tic tac I don't know their motivation whether they have that footage or they have chosen not to release it they say they do but but I'll Hey, in our footage of the Tic Tacs, they are not a round cylinder

right? They're actually more like a So, if you look at uh if you zoom in and enhance uh the footage, you can actually see little spikes all around the craft around the perimeter of it. You know, kind of riding this the the surface of it. Um, furthermore, I talked about in the other video, uh, the episode that they they appear to bend when they come out of hygiene maneuvers. So, they're flexible or semi- rigid, if you will. I think you do you guys have video of maybe that's the manta. I don't

remember, but I It feels like the thing is bending in the video. Is Is that the tick that? I can see it. And Proixel did a good job of zooming in, enhancing, and showing Okay. So, a little AI enhancement. Yeah. Yeah. which we didn't do ourselves on We wanted to give our government the chance to say stop sharing this data sensitive. So, we did a very controlled limited release with footage that wasn't the most spectacular. Uh to give the government that opportunity to ask us to rescend or

Have you gotten any calls to stop what you're doing or No, quite the opposite. I've sat in meetings with various agencies of the government very recently. Um we do routinely. Yeah. uh share a lot with the government and I've asked the government to nebulize me to give me an NDA. Yeah. To tell us to stop uh make us, you know, make give us some kind of indication or even lately, hey, give us some talking Like what helps national defense on And I'll tell you, the government's So I, you know, what does that mean? You

I you know, in a much probably smaller, more mini way than you've experienced, uh feel the same way. I feel like uh the lights are on but no one's home often with the on the government with this stuff where on the one hand you have David Grush's claims and and and others and honestly a lot of historical evidence that we have real reverse engineering programs we have saucers and hangers like you know we know a lot about this stuff and then on the other side of the spectrum it's like you you you continuously meet these people where you're like oh that person should be

like one of the architects of this thing or you know whatever you get into these rooms and like it often feels extremely frustrating where it's like no one knows what's going on and if there's anything you know we were talking about this earlier like you know China has its own centralized way even if you read the threebody problem it's like they'll just knock on the scientist door and say you're coming with us right and in the US you have these kind of private side you know people innovating on you know anything happening um and that's that's it's always this kind of distributed

loose thing it's not this fully top- down centralized system. So, it's it's it's just so hard to make make sense of how much the government actually knows knows on this. So, is your sense that they they don't know? Are they playing dumb or what or it's I think it's kind of a mix. Okay. Right. So, when I meet with the government and and and ask them, usually the conversation will go something like James, nice to meet you. Let's talk about the data you have. Let's talk about what you're seeing. I'll lay out online classes. Kind of give them like probably 30 to minutes to an hour long

overview. And then they'll say, "Great. Uh, since we're in a skiff, I'm going to make a call to this other program has all this knowledge and data on stuff, and I'm going to ask them if anything you have matches what they're doing." And the answer is always no. The answer is always they have no clue what you're talking about. There's nothing in inventory that matches what you're describing. Um, so yeah, we don't know, right? And then usually what happens after that is a deer in the headlights look. I held a held a meeting recently where there was a guy on the VTC in a classified settings kind of smirking.

Uhhuh. Right. Um I thought he was incredulous or thinking like thinking negatively about what I was saying. Turns out he was smirking because he already has done his due diligence and says like we have no knowledge of any of this, right? As in like may I think he may have even said maybe this is off planet, Which is quite shocking when I'm in a room with subject matter experts from the government on UAP and UAP tracking and history and the answer they give me is maybe it's off planet. and he says in a smirking manner because like I said there's different categories of people and even

in even in a room of people who are studying or trying to learn about this there's still that that edge where there's a little bit of taboo for him to say that I think it's off planet. Right. So um and I would also offer that typically engineers and scientists are bad liars. Usually they're not really good at keeping a straight face and talking around a topic. Yeah. And I've purposefully affronted several of them or confronted them with some of our findings to see and measure and kind of put them in a in the hot

seat to see if they have a a reaction and the reaction I get from them is typically very honest that they have no idea what this is and these are people that should know about it. So do I think that there is uh misdirection and and uh information operations warfare type stuff happening? I do believe there is that happening. Do I think that there our government has um some reverse engineering or technology? Yes, I think that is the case. But I don't think that that is necessarily tied to what we're observing

in the sky. It's like the deeper you go on this, you really have to you what I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly and for you to have you know it's like the um things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground are the secret science things is the consciousness stuff that we all kind of intuit it might involve you know might be the next kind of scientific paradigm and it all fits together in this neat thing and then also space aliens and they're from Zeta articulate and you're

like, "Oh, it's easy." And in fact, all of those things could be their own disperate threads and it's just this extremely wonky hard thing to to figure out. And that the deeper you go in some ways, the more confused you get, which is cool. I mean, that's like any any cool subject that's generative, but uh it's not often the disclosure I think people want. You know, they want this like neatly packaged, you know, tied up in a bow thing. And I don't I don't know if that's ever coming. Let's talk about a guilt-free

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try Cornbread CBD gummies. Right now, American Alchemy listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to and use code jesse at checkout. Again, that's cornbread.com/jesse. Code jesse. Cornbread hemp. This is the good life. Yeah. And I don't think that disclosure is what com what what the common populace thinks it is. So when we talk about disclosure, we we released a disclosure framework because it's our belief that and our understanding and our desire that

when we release data in scientific studies, nobody should have to ask what that means, right? When a third party looks at our data and reaches conclusions, nobody should have to say what does that mean that there's aliens? Does that mean that um that uh the government knows what's going on? like there should be some kind of framework that covers what that means and and that can be clearly articulated this report and this data means this. Um so that's why we laid out the the disclosure framework. But I would add a twist on that and that

it's my opinion that disclosure isn't aliens. It's not about UFOs or UAPs. It's my opinion Eric Weinstein I believe has said that there's secret. Yeah. secret physics or secret science and I believe that that is the case. You know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not there certainly is materials knowledge. Materials well okay material which involves topological physics or I think the the government's conflicted

right now our government. And probably several others. I think they have uh advanced secret physics and and and knowledge and I agree with you that that they've had probably since at least the end of World War II. Mhm. And through that science and understanding have developed new And I think that disclosure from a government perspective is about the science being released and disclosed, not about the technology.

so it let let me make it really simple. Let's say you're a Lockheed uh program manager who has a secret program with the government. And your secret program involves physics that are like nothing we have today that anybody knows about. And you're doing really crazy things for national defense against our enemies and to defend our homeland with this with this knowledge. And you're developing new sensors, you're developing new aircraft, you're developing new submarines, whatever it is you're developing, you're doing it with a physics that nobody understands.

Now, let's say you've been doing that for 20 years. You're you're at a good a good place in your career. You make a lot of money. You're happy. You're stable. But now the news and the public zeist starts changing. And now there's agents of the government hunting for you because they think you're responsible for this UFO phenomena, UAP phenomena. They think that you somehow are using your advanced physics to do uh uh information operations warfare against American populace. So, they're actively hunting for you. So now you just went from a patriot who loves his

loves his country and is very smart in developing technology or protecting technology and science to the boogeyman that has somebody hunting for them. And so that locked engineer uh needs a pressure relief valve. Right? So I think we have reached the point where our government has decided that it needs to release knowledge about the advanced physics and advanced science but at the same time needs to constrain that locked engineer or scientist from revealing our national secrets and protecting our national

So I think our government's conflicted in that without saying it out loud because by saying it they're acknowledging that is true and no one has told me this. I've arrived at this position through years of discussions. No one has ever said like, "Hey, here's the case." I know nothing from the government. In fact, all I ever get from those is you're in the headlights and questions answers. so much of this resonates with my own experience looking into this stuff. So, yeah, I I think I think disclosure, frankly, is less about a UAP flying in the air and more about releasing the

techn the the the science. And how do you release the science? How does Skywatcher release the science? I'll tell you we are a private company privately funded. We have our own technology and we have we're developing our own technology and as I stated in the beginning we are rooted in and exist because of UAPs being exposed to us. Is that the government program? Was the government is the government programmed to expose us, Chinese, Russian, whatever technology to to the layman, right, with the right mindset so that they can

produce uh science based on it to basically do disclosure fascinating of how they're doing it. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. knowing that you know, hey, as we observe propulsion technology or telemetry technology or whatever we're observing that even if we understand how they're doing it, we're still 60 to 90 years behind them, right? that is uh mind [ __ ] excuse my French, but like the idea that that's their soft disclosure of secret science is us through, you know, civilian

efforts like what you're doing, private efforts, detecting what they're doing and then working back from first principles on how to build it and maybe even building things that are emergently adjacent or new compared to what they've done over the last 60 or 70 years which they can't admit to or own up to. That is fascinating. Yeah, that's very And that's what I believe is happening. I believe that's our role. I believe that's why when I the government, they give me no answers. They just want to see, hey, what are these guys going to come up with? When they poke us, the bear or whoever it is.

Um, and like I said, there's different I think there's blue, I think there's red, and I think there's other. And I have an idea of which class is which, but I don't want to share that. But I believe that there is a mixed bag of what we're seeing. Why do you feel like it's premature to share that or why? I want the government to have the chance to stop me before I reveal secrets. Right. So that's frankly why we're holding back. It's not cuz we don't have the data or the knowledge. It's because we want to do this responsibly. Sure. Right. Yeah. So um so again, disclosure is going to

be more about, you know, we're making observations right now. We made observations in in in March and in February that revealed to us the technology in play. And what that means is I sat with a physicist from a certain field looking over my shoulder while I went frame by frame on one of the UAP classes that we have not revealed yet. And that physicist was able to say, "Wow, that's the technology being used. That is how the propulsion works." This is what the shape of the craft

means. Yeah. Right. So no longer are we, oh, it's magic. Okay. I can't replicate that Right. Now we can understand, okay, this is why we can't see them sometimes because perhaps they're using what we're what we have observed. Yeah. Right. So those observations tell us

But it doesn't give me the science and the tools to go make it and do it Sure. So that is one of the things we were doing at Skywatcher. That's still fascinating though. I mean, can you say anything about what that scientist said about that specific? I have to leave that have to leave that uh let that go for a while. But it's important to understand that part of SkyWatcher is an applied physics, applied science, if you will, where we're working to understand the technology behind what we are seeing. And really, I actually said that wrong.

We're actually working to understand the science behind what we're seeing so we can understand the technology and again let's say that that is a made in America thing and that you know some agency flew that through specifically because of what we're reporting we're seeing so that we can release maybe to the world eventually the science behind it so that innovation can be made to move us forward as uh as safely as we can uh and responsibly as we can. Like is that the the the quest here to to pressure relief that project manager on

Lockheed, the mythical project manager that I don't know exists to pressure relief them and turn them from the boogeyman into they can keep all their technology secrets, all their while we understand the science. And like I said, we're 60 years behind. Totally. Well, something else I hope happens is I've talked to a couple of those aerospace grey beard types and you never know, you know, what they've discovered, but you can sense that some of them, you know, are higher conviction on certain frameworks that aren't publicly acknowledged. And what I sense

sometimes is that there's a, you know, a feeling of, wow, like I feel high conviction in some of these things. I wish uh they were used more broadly in civil side architecture and maybe we had this kind of regressive cold war mindset which doesn't even make sense now with some of these frameworks because if China and Russia are not at parody I will say publicly and I'm sure fans will get pissed at me that like we shouldn't disclose something that is you know extremely dual use and like could confer

some really big warfare tactical advantage obviously but if they are at parity and if there are ways to implement some of this stuff civilside and we don't have to send civilside science off into this kind of culde-sac of like not being productive because of bad frameworks. It would be great to to get some of this stuff out and I I I also see those gray beards at times being like I wish I could work more for for humanity too. So I don't know if you've experienced that or you know

so so yes um that is you know we do have a certain level of look we'd like to help humanity help our country we're very patriotic um and and we're very open about what we're trying to do which is develop technology for national defense and also at the same time if through the science can we can discover new technology like we're all about proliferating that like that's responsibly that's what we want to do the the I think our government is constrained Right. Um the skies are not classified and we are seeing things in

the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. Um there's a very specific time of day when we observe UAPs. They're not there the other times of day. can you say what time or I'll get I'll skip I'll skip that for Yeah. Yeah. But um the the point there we could be on the ground looking up at the UAPs with a camera ball and see them when we see them on radar, right? So we have three spectrums that we're seeing

them on with imagery and we see them on radar. So that's four different methods that we're tracking them with. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them. I've chased probably about 15 UAPs now in the last 60 days. I wanted to ask you about this. Yeah. so when we chase them, we have never seen a UAP from the air. Right. Now, um, airto-air intercepts are hard to do. I was not a PJ or F-16 pilot or anything Air Force. So, I'm, you know, Army, right? So, like I have zero experience.

I know a lot of skydiving and military freef fall operations, but I've never I've never been in an aircraft with with with a motor trying to chase another aircraft. We have Jake on your team, so that's good. Yeah. Well, he's a really good pilot, too, right? So, um so we've chased about 15 UAPs and they evade us, right? But they evade us because the ground can see them evading from the air. We've never laid eyes on them, right? We're sitting there with binoculars, sitting with uh sare cameras. We're sitting there. Why do you think that is? Um I think

that they have a method to be cloaked from the air and that method does not extend to the right. And and and it's important to understand. Okay. So we're seeing UAPs. How would you even do that? It's so It is wild. Right. We are seeing UAPs in commercial airspace. Right. At the same flight levels that commercial aviation's flying at that you cannot see from the air. Mhm. So understand uh if we're in El Paso and we see a UAP

you know, and I'm looking north and and in El Paso, if you look north, actually from where we're at in Sierra Blanca, the last place we we were using, uh when we look north, all we see are airliners transiting because everyone transits the border right there by El Paso, just just north. So in the same airspace, we're seeing UAPs. All right. So UAPs that the pilots cannot see. Wow. And I know they can't see them because I've been probably about 200 meters from a class 8 and the team's like, "Look out your left window. The UAP is right there

and me and the pilot and and and and one of my colleagues is sitting there looking scanning every sector." Then you can't see it. There's nothing there. Whoa. Is it Do you think any are you picking it up from the ground with normal optical sensors with cameras or with kind of more exotic stuff or what what are you picking it up? So, it's the ones I described. Okay. The radar and the three bands. We should go through. Yeah. So you have radar, you have infrared. So you have shortwave infrared, shortwave infrared, medium wave infrared, and electrooptical. Electrooptical can see a little bit more than the human eye. And

I believe that the reason why the electrooptical can see them and they cannot is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light and in where is so the human eye, I think, is 400 and 700 nanometers is the the range. So where would this be on the I don't know. The electrooptical would be like we haven't figured that out yet. Like we haven't figured out where in the they are visible. Like I said, we're running operation growing to the Okay. Okay. So, um and I would even offer to jump ahead a little bit in the class 7s.

for it probably be like 350 to 750. It's probably within the, you know, Yeah, it's probably somewhere uh uh uh like that. But um the class 7s for years I thought we thought were blackbodied that emitted a purple and pink vapor of some kind or reflection with white tentacles jellyfish. Um recently in February we saw class 7s with the naked eye. I saw one with the naked eye. It looked like uh uh a golden chrome looking

mirror that was highly reflective with white tentacles. Then we picked up binoculars and got high magnification scopes on them and they looked bright white but reflective. So under each observation method we get a different return on what we're seeing. It's not Right? So it's not a black body. I don't think I think it's white like the tic tac and like the egg and like other things that are out there. But that tells you the the the hard problem we have here. We're trying to detect a craft that isn't consistent

across bands, right? And it's very hard to image at the same distances we are seeing these. If we see a drone, which again we started this with drones or a bird, we see lots of birds or balloons. We've released balloons too or aircraft at the same distances. We'd be able to distinguish flight uh control surfaces, engines, uh exhaust. And we're not picking that up with the right. So, we have a team sitting outside of the talk when we're running these operations with scopes and cameras

and they might catch a snippet for like 2 seconds of a UAP, but that's really all they're able to to see unless cuz UAPs typically are 5 km minimum away sometimes. Um, uh, you know, approximately 10,000 ft above ground level, right? Whatever that is in meters. Um, so they're not nearby, right? And often when we do see them or when we did see them with the naked eye in the few times we have they're very So actually using the sun's glint to spot them is one of the methods we use

and and should help us indicate that maybe we can't see them in the naked eye. Maybe all the naked eye sees are Oh, that's so fascinating. So interesting. Makes me think of this Carl Sean thing where he's talking about like you're seeing a shadow of the thing. you're not seeing the thing itself. He's I think it's like a platonic solid. He's using like a tesseract example and you know that's just and there like you know there are this comes up and it's very theoretical but like holographic theories or principles you grush even

mentioned it in his congressional testimony. The framework uh that I'm familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle uh both uh it's it deres itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine uh a 3D object such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface uh that's the holographic principle so you can be projected quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional it's a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I

understand but there's probably guys of PhDs that we could probably argue about Class 3 is the blob. So, it's a I describe as Pepto-Bismmo colored cloud. And in the center of the cloud is uh like a filament that looks golden almost like a flame. Looks like it's a cylinder. Maybe has corners. Really hard to tell. And uh this object uh uh like the class one and the class 2 um does

fly in a stable trajectory but while it's flying in that trajectory it's vertically and horizontally very fast. So it moves from point to point as it moves along a stable trajectory. And when I say stable trajectory, maybe it's maybe it's flight path is 80 knots, But on imagery and on radar, it is bouncing all over in a perhaps like a like a tube almost like it's in the subway and you took like the Tasmanian

devil and threw him in the subway and said, "Go downtown. He's going to bounce all over the subway while he moves down that that that tubular uh tunnel there." Um that's kind of what we're seeing in the sky. Interesting. Right. So, as the Tasmanian devil bounces all over the tunnel, he's still moving at a certain speed, but point to point, he's all over the map, But within a constrained area, it's fascinating. So, the the class 3 um uh we've never seen one up close. We don't know why it vibrates and how it's vibrating, but for sure it is

vibrating because we have it on imagery and on radar showing it vibrating. Um and um that does meet the threshold of several of the five characteristics or maybe six characteristics of UAPs and that it's instantaneous movement from point to point that again there's no contrail there's no visible propulsion it's just moving you know and we've had to ask ourselves and it's still a theory is is everything in the sky you know a holographic projection is all just just the government or a government messing with our heads making

us think we're seeing something and all it is plasmids from space-based lasers, uh, making shapes and they're bouncing them across the sky to throw us off or make us think a thing. I accept that that could be a Um, because what we're looking at with the class 3 defies any known physics, any known logic of how it's maneuvering. So, is it really there? Is it is it, like I said, a plasmoid with lasers, or is there actually a physical craft there moving across the sky? They'd have to be, if the

government were doing that, they'd have to know where you guys are and then like be trying to spoof you or something, which I guess is possible, but uh you know, I don't know. That's that's fascinating. Um, do any of these classes are they attributed more to the psionic assets calling them in versus the machinebased? Like is is it like the case I'm just an example the jellyfish only shows up with the machinebased thing or the psionic asset only attracts

you know this particular class is that can he can he do those sort of attributions do you have data against so we have four and a half years of data with no psionics involved at all. Right. So okay so was that was all machine based. Yeah. Yeah. When we were running these government events nobody there was doing anything psionic and if they did they wouldn't have the clearance and they couldn't be there anyway. Right. probably wouldn't allow them to be present and I probably wouldn't have hired them on my team to come help run the event if they were doing those things. Um um four and a half years has no psionics

whatsoever. We have eight classes with that. That said, once we started doing this uh in a very open mindset of uh while I'm not a believer, I'm completely open. Like I've described several obscure theories that could hold true. Whether it's a holographic projection, whether it's offplanet, on planet, all these different theories. We have to like I don't have to believe all of them, but I have to accept that they could be true. We have to be completely open-minded here. To include on the psionic side. Yeah. And what I would offer is on the psionic side, I have had personal

observations of things that this that the psionic team has done that appear to validate that their methods work. One example is um uh in August uh one of our principal psionic assets, Jordan, apparently called in a craft and it could be an egg. I don't know what it And he's wearing a covering on his face. He's under a patio. He can't even see the sky. Uh or wa I'm looking now looking at him and he's having these

experiences. And then Fred Baker was out on the back patio watching the sky while he hears Jordan freaking out down there on the beneath the the porch down there. And and Fred independently is like, "Oh, there it is." Because Jordan said where to look in the sky. And Fred looked and saw an object. And videoed it. We didn't have the all of our equipment. It's very expensive to procure. So we had uh rudimentary equipment at that event and well we caught rudimentary observations, right? So but

Jordan called it out literally said this is where it's at in the sky. This is what's happening. Here it is. And there's some other things that go with But point being okay, how does that how do you reconcile that? They reconcile the entire event. Um fast forward to February. Well, we ran an event in January without with the equipment with with no dog whistle and we got zero results, right? So, we have run events 24 hours a day. We've run events without the dog whistle, but the same technology and play and we don't get UAPs during those

times. It's only a very narrow part of the day. So, in February, up till February, I'd never seen a UAP with a naked eye ever. Yeah. Wow. Wow. In five years of doing it, it was always through through a sensor. Yep. Um in February we actually had the for for the first time the dog whistle paired with psionic assets. And while we can't say definitively that the psionic assets were responsible for the results we got. For the first time they approximated close enough to see them. They've never done that before. Now

there's too many variables, right? We have to repeat this adnauseum until we can say with with some kind of scientific rigor that cause and effect or causation. Yeah. We also introduced more chaos. For four and a half years, we had no helicopter. I had no Jake Barber. I had nobody to fly me up and go look. And part of our frustration with the government was we were underfunded uh when we were funded by the government for these events. And even when we were funded explicitly by certain parties to go look at UAPs, we were still underfunded there. So, we

didn't have the capacity to go get a helicopter or find Jake and and go fly up to them. And and because we're not Skinwalker Ranch, we are mobile. We are nomadic. Mhm. Um, and our end state is that we would like to make contact with or retrieve some of this material, So, you're not going to do that by standing on the ground watching it and being static, right? So, we want to fly to them and observe them. So, we introduced the helicopter activity and that introduced more chaos into the event, right? So, just too many variables to understand cause and effect with that many variables being changed.

Right. So, and one time when you were up in a helicopter, the helicopter was sort of frozen like it couldn't continue on. Is that is that right? We sent the Hilo out to intercept the tic tac, but the first attempt failed because our radar was being jammed by the class 7 jellyfish. Where did it where were we in the sky the first time you saw that? That was when [music] we were 7 km or so out to the northwest 340 at that spot that we went to. And he kept trying to climb and we just it wouldn't let us. Our helicopter launched and about a half mile out, the

helicopter stopped moving. Enginees running, blades are turning, but it would not go forward. It would not go up. It would not go left or right. It was stuck there. So, we've had several interactions with UAPs in the air. Um, first the the most prominent UAP we see are the jellyfish, the class 7. Um, when we chase them, they evade us. Uh we have on video us flying towards the class 7 and it changing it flight path going into the wind, going perpendicular to the wind and then

elevating away from us. You know, we're moving at 80 plus knots and a little bird and and watching the class 7s with video and with radar, we know it's air speed, maybe it's 30 or 40 knots. We should be able to air air to air intercept that all day long, but they consistently outrun us and escape us. So, um, so we've had that interaction. Then, yes, with a tic tac, I'll I'll talk through kind of what happened with the tic tac because it's actually very interesting. Um, we had

observed the class 7s fly through our radar beam and approximate our team repeatedly over four or five days. I believe it was four days. The on the fourth day, the class 7, it was actually very interesting. We had nobody up on out up on the hill outside of the talk. It was a barren hilltop. The helicopter wasn't there. On the fourth day, the class 7 came and hovered over us for about 5 minutes. All right. Now, um

that's never happened before. And it hovered at about 800 meters over us so we could see it with the naked eye for the first time. As soon as we started coming outside the talk to look at it and grabbing other cameras to try and image it, it started moving away. All right. Now, understand the class 7 has some kind of inherent uh apparently inherent uh microwave energy that it's emitting. Right? And that energy interferes with our cabling between our systems, we believe.

So, we've h we've noticed an effect that when the class 7 is present, we lose connection to our sensors. Um the the the high-end sensors that we're removing it into. So, our primary sensor didn't collect on that class 7 while it was in hover or uh uh you know over us. Um once it departed the area, our sensors turned back on and we were able to actually image it. And I would offer we've never had that happen before ever. We never had one approximate and we never had our sensors go down.

So we have all, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera gear inside the talk, right? And so here's the team scrambling like like my our primary sensor just quit working. And now we're like, "All right, let's grab the cameras and go image it." So everyone's in a hurry trying to do that. And and poor Rory is out there just shooting all these videos and is, you know, taking uh photos like, "Oh, this is amazing." And talking through it. And then we look at the camera and there's no SD card in it and we realized because they were our secondary systems like

we'd never seen one with these cameras right they were there for emergency use and we hadn't prepped them right um sometimes through those errors you know they're costly but you learn right now we are prepared for our secondary systems to become primary in case they approximate again but we had to learn that the hard way right so we've seen the class 7s fly through our airspace routinely and probe apparently our active systems our emanating systems And so on the each day it seemed to get more I would say aggressive but I don't

know that it's aggressive. It just got more interesting. So maybe the first day it flies over over top of what our radar bubble should be. Then maybe the next day it flies over top maybe a little bit lower and then deviates. You maybe it's coming from the west and it heads north and then and then later in the day it comes in from the west and heads south as in measuring our radar beam radar field. Um, so that's the impression we got. And then for the first time in February, we saw two jellyfish fly together in the radar and they offset from us equally.

So six kilometers north and south of us and they flew right past us. Right. So we're like, well that's pretty cool. I've never seen them in pairs before. Y and they're obviously interested in us in the middle and they're putting themselves in beam of our systems. So then, do they resemble the jellyfish that Jeremy Corbel revealed a couple years Not to us like that looks like a shriveled up version of what we have. Right. I would say, you know, our our jellyfish are about 2 to 3 meters across in the head. Um I think they look like an aspirin pill. I don't know.

Um and um the tentacles are about 5 m And I think the tentacles in your case, if I'm visualizing it correctly, are a little more dynamically moving than the if you look at the Jeremy Corbell thing, it's I think it's thermal imaging. And they look like kind of stuck together and like they're not like the the they're not moving the tentacles. Yeah. Well, so yeah, the tentacles seem to flow a little bit more and that's actually gets into like I hate the word debunk debunker because it starts with a premise of

we're going to prove you're a liar or prove you're incorrect instead of I'm going to consume what you're saying. I'm gonna make a fair and unbiased uh uh estimation of the validity of that information and then release those results. So debunking to me is a adversarial relationship, you know, and um I think that there are paid debunkers out there who are too quick to come in and body slam and present falsehoods because they don't know the whole story and they're

assuming they do and they're assuming some kind of mal intent on our side of, hey, these guys must be liars. these guys some kind of secret government program. Uh none of it makes any sense at the end of the day. But um the jellyfish, what's very interesting is if you take a balloon and release it into the wind and watch it, which we have done, the string will dangle below the balloon. And why is that? Because the balloon relative to the wind is blowing in the wind. M you might get some oscillation of some turbulence or some uh uh different uh

winds at different levels as it transitions through those uh winds, but for the most part, you're going to look at a balloon and you're going to see basically like a lollipop, right? A straight line coming down from the If you take a helicopter and you conduct uh operations like Jake does with a long and you put that long line under weight and you lift it up and start flying 60, 80, 100 knots, right? Um, the long line with load, it's going to be maybe a 45 degree angle off the bottom of the helicopter. It's going to be straight because it's under it's under load, but

it's blowing back from the relative wind pushing it back. If you if you take that same helicopter and release the payload from it, but keep the long line and then fly into the wind, something very interesting Actually, the long line actually forms a U shape and the U is in the direction of travel and that's because of the air pressure on that long line builds up in the middle of it. The surface area uh uh becomes uh under enough pressure that it actually bends the line in the direction of flight. So that as

you're flying into the wind, it's like a U or a C flying like a Pac-Man flying into the wind. Right. What's interesting about the class 7s is we've released images of them with the tentacles. sometimes being straight. And then the same craft when we know it's flying per perpendicular to the wind in a swimming the long line, the tentacles are in a in a Pac-Man, you know, indicating that it is flying into the wind or it's flying faster than the

wind. It's not floating with the wind. So, as these debunkers try to come out with their theories, um, sometimes it's sad that they haven't done their basic analysis and research, and they're they're calling things balloons that, you know, maybe one day we'll find out it's a balloon, but it's not your run-of-the-mill Myar bought at Walmart. If it is a balloon, it's a hybrid balloon that can lift apparently and uh, maneuver against and perpendicular to the wind at will and ascend and descend. Yeah. So, these are properties that normally

balloons can't do. So, am I saying it's not a balloon? No. Y but but if it is a balloon, it has to be hybrid. Y at least with our current understanding of physics and there's something special about it, right? Some secret physics balloon at at Yeah. Minimum. At minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Proximity to it. It was saying don't come any higher cuz that was when I told you guys elevate right controls resisting. That's fascinating. We were called out to intercept an object that was on found on radar. We went to the location it was supposed to be at. We circled a couple

times and were requested to climb another thousand ft. The instrumentation started to bounce and the collective basically was frozen. And so you tried to you you guys flew up and it was a class 7, right, that you were chasing with the helicopter and then there was it was like this it was really interesting in this last video you guys released there was like this almost like barrier you couldn't get beyond or something. No. So, so to get back to the story, so we had class sevens, uh, on on the fourth day, one hovered over us and we

went to bed that night thinking, what's going to happen next? Like, what happens? Like, okay, so they've done everything that you could do to indicate we're interested in you. They've flown in beam. They must know whoever's operating these so we can see them. They must know that we're on the hill looking at them. They like for sure they must know. When we fly a helicopter towards them, they evade it. So they know that there's there's some kind of action force in the vicinity of them, right? Some kind of action element us. So on the fifth day, I went to bed thinking what what's more aggressive? Is it going to come down and land? Is it

going to blow us up? Is it going to hit us with energy? Like is it going to send us a text message? You like what's going to happen with this AP that's more aggressive than what it did so far? What should we expect? Yeah. And so that night, uh, Jordan, our psionic, uh, lead, if you will, uh, came up to me and Alex like, "Hey, tomorrow we're going to see, you know, a conflict in the sky. We're going to have, uh, different UAPs are going to come in and there's going to be he sensed that. He He said that. And he said to me and Alex, and I've since talked to Jordan. I said, Jordan, never do that to me again. Ever. Uhhuh. If you ever come up to me again,

bring a damn camera with a detime group in the screen, record you telling us this prediction and then mail it to somebody outside of our group so that there's proof that it transited to a third party. Because his prediction came true. Yeah. Right. Literally, that's what happened on the fifth day. Uh we had jellyfish at a distance. We had uh extreme I I'll just say uh interference with our systems. M uh typically we'd never seen jellyfish interfere with us the last several

Uh and uh up to this day, the the four days preceding it, we had had mild interference with our systems disconnecting from the primary sensors uh when the jellyfish were in vicinity. But on the fifth day, the interference was constant for two hours. And because it's constant, we can't see the jellyfish. Our primary sensor does not doesn't connect. We can't use it. we started looking to try and figure out what's going on. That's when we discovered the class 2 tic tac and the

manta ray in the sky hiding behind the terrain. That's right. Between us and the jellyfish. That's so fascinating, right? And what's really, really crazy here is there have been two instances of UAP reacting seemingly to our intent. Uh-huh. So around 2003, we were running an event and we had the opportunity to bring for the government event, we brought an energy weapon with us. Um and so we had this energy weapon up on the hill and we're doing things with it for the

government project. This microwave that Yeah, something like that. And um we saw a class 6 coming through our our event, right? And this was extracurricular in our own time and somebody from another group was like, "Hey, let's aim that thing at that UAP and see what happens if we energize it." So, we're like, "Sure, let's just see what happens." Right? So, this person went to um to move. It was a there was [snorts] no electronic gimbal. It was like a manual

antenna. You had to feed horn. You had to turn towards the UAP. So he's like goes out there a couple you know call it 60 70 feet from our operating area out there and starts turning it towards it mid turn before he could actually turn it to the UAP the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Right. And that energy weapon turned our systems off as in off as in blank screens. Wow. It was working and then it was in the off position. Yeah. And it happened to systems that were not connected to the same network.

Um, and that were not used together. So, I think there were three separate systems that turned off. All right. So, did the UAP know that we were going to try to send uh energy towards it? High energy microwave uh towards it. Seems like it. And did it react? I think so. It's never happened since because we've never tried that again. Yeah. Uh, and we can't try it now commercially because that's highly illegal. Don't everyone no one should do that in the United States. You should go to jail. Like that's not a laughing

matter. The FCC will get you. Um or the FAA or whoever it is. Yeah. Um you can't just go do that. So it's Does that concern you at all? Just that that interaction. Does that does that make you think twice about because you hear rumors of directed energy being shot at UAP? And I always I don't know. I feel I feel conflicted about that. That feels like a possibly dangerous, you know, territory. You guys are mo are you you're mostly doing just psionic based or not psionic based stuff, but um trying to get them to land or are you

doing any of the shooting at No. No. So, uh Skywatcher as a team, we are not aggressive. We're not trying to go to war or have, you know, destroy American or Chinese or Russian equipment in the sky and create an intergalactic battle. Yeah. Or have a have have a war with NHI or whatever the hell it is. Like, we're not trying to do that. We don't want that pain. We don't want that Um we we are approaching this very scientifically and peace peacefully. Um and and so those activities aren't activities that we want to do. And if those are done, the government can go do that. We have no interest in um harming

or destroying any of this uh material or craft or beings. Like that's not our interest at all. It's quite the opposite actually. And our desire is that one lands. And that is with the psionic team. What we're trying to do is get one to land peacefully. Right? uh you know we don't need to harm or kill or maim or destroy. We want to observe, collect and understand. So that was the first time that we had UAPs react to our action or intentions we believe. The second time was with the tic tac in February. Um

I saw a manta ray was watching the manta ray and then it disappeared again. The manta and the tic tac were hiding from our primary sensor. They approached from the one avenue of approach we couldn't see for miles and miles and they hid behind terrain and they used a train to mask their presence from our sensors that were being taken out anyway by the we believe the jellyfish. So I sat there for probably 20 minutes and watched a a uh manta ray in the sky. Uh it looks kind of like a trash bag that never

descends or just an amorphous uh shape that's rolling and tumbling constantly. Um but and and then also a tic tac right next to it. So they were both in the sky kind of about the same place about 800 meters elevation about 800 meters away. We're watching them manta ray for about 20 and then the tic tac for about five. So at this time we did have the helicopter up on the hill and we had a lot of security because again this is day five of anomalous weird things happening that never happened before. So we are expecting something

interesting. Jordan predicted it and it's happening as he said. Um, so I'm like, "Hey, I want to get in a helicopter and go see the tic tac. Let's go chase it." So like, what else what other data can we can we get now? We can't get radar. We can't get the highend imagery because those systems are off, right? They're not connectable. This is the day I told you where our secondary systems weren't ready to go. So, um, we're looking at them with binoculars and scopes. And I'm like, well, let's go get more data. So, I turn to run down the hill. about 200 meter

run to get to the helicopter. I get 10 steps and the the tic tac starts flying away. So it sat there for over 2530 minutes while we observed the manta ray and the tic tac. And then we watched once that was gone, we watched only the tic tac. And then it just so happens that as I turn radio to run down the helicopter and on the radio, hey, start the helicopter up deliberately to go fly to it. That's when it decides to depart. So did it know that I was coming to it? Did it understand my intention to fly up to it and pay it a visit? You know, um

that's amazing. Does that does that when you that or the the energy weapon anecdote, do you ever worry that it's just this crazy game of cat and mouse where the cat can mind readad the mouse or whatever and you guys are the mouse, you know, trying to sense these things. And it's like if they can show that level of kind of, you know, um, prediction of intent, you know, is it it will will we ever get to, you know, clear resolution on these things?

Well, I don't know, right? And honest answer. Yeah. It's really hard to say like like it is a cat-and- mouse game. It feels like it does feel like how many times do you have to fly advanced technology in beam of a radar to know what it how it works, right? like how many years do you have to do it in a row, right? So like clearly they are presenting as if they are measuring our capabilities and But if there's an intelligent entity doing this, do they not understand

So clearly in my opinion, it's less about our technology and more about our Right. So they know we can see them. They know it because that week uh on the fifth day we chased like seven or 10 UAPs before So it knew we were going to chase it, right? It must have known. Whoever's controlling it knew we were going to chase it. The question is why would they put themselves in beam and put themselves in that vulnerable apparently vulnerable position repeatedly. So as you get into the philosophical

here, it's really hard to understand and see through. Okay. um why are they putting themselves in this apparently vulnerable position, To what end? Do you know do they want us to fly to it? Do they want us to interact with it? I believe so. Um and are they aware of our intentions? I don't know because our intentions have not always been pure, right? Like I said, somebody aimed an energy weapon at one of these things and it took action. Yeah. Right. So, um is it I you know, how does that fit?

I really wish we could sit and and have a philosophical discussion with a philosopher and say like, yeah, let's walk the dog on each possibility. Yeah. Because there might be enough data to understand that. Do the psionic assets are they able to overlay some of possible information? Like you see Jordan predicting, oh, the next day there's going to be a war in the sky and it's accurate. To me, that would and I know some of his story and out of respect for him, I'll let him come out with that whenever. But uh you know does that make you think oh

a lot of this stuff he probably you know believes philosophically about this stuff might be right as well like you you know increases the probability that you know uh the psionic assets are probably correct about maybe other things. Do they have any sort of metaphysical worldview around this that is possibly informative or illustrative of what you're looking at or we haven't figured that out yet. Right. We purposefully maintain a separation from the psionic team. Oh, interesting. It's like a double blind or something. Yeah, precisely. Like we're up on a hill with our system using

the dog whistle. We are not telling the psionic team. We have tried this in the past, but typically we do not tell a psionic team there's something inbound. They don't they have no idea what's happening up on the hill. They can't see it. They can't hear it. They don't know. Right. And and then we're documenting their call outs and their descriptions and their efforts. Uh we've done that two or three events in a row. probably morph that and change that under guidance of our science team. To kind of understand, hey, if if they know nothing and we don't really know what they're doing, which is also the then we can't really we can't to our

knowledge make an effect and we can't pollute the other's minds with what's going to happen. Smart way to do it. Yeah, they must have I mean I've I've I've met a few of them and it seems like they have some pretty interesting backgrounds in past history and I think this is going to come out probably increasingly in the next year or two. There are these kind of gifted and talented education programs in the United States that recruited often children to be kind of you know high sai assets in various cases and probably for various use cases maybe part of the

remote viewing stuff that hell put off and Russell Tar started you know back in the day Stargate Grill Grill Flame all of that and then maybe some UAP related stuff as well. What do you what do you think about their stories? Is that do you think that that is a widespread program in the US where they're recruiting kind of these these younger younger people? So Stranger Things is that a real is that a real show on reality? That's it's a really good question, man. Um talking to some of these folks, their stories are very believable.

Some of them have more than a story. They have data. They have documents. They have places and names and dates that go with their stories. M so um I'd offer that there's that data supports their story to a degree. It doesn't prove or disprove anything psionic but it does show a programmatic nature of something occurring. Now is that programmatic nature due to their own condition or their own self or is it due to a third party instituting something with them for a

purpose and I don't know that there's enough data to know that yet. Um perhaps somebody has compiled that data and can show that disparity or that proof or actually not disparity but parody between the stories to say like there is a systematic yeah program. I would offer um a lot of times you have to lean on AAM's You have to go with like are people really that evil? Is our government really that evil? Are they really that um that subversive of the American way? Um I think there can be limited cases

like that, but I think they're limited. Yeah. And I think when you look at this again through AAM's razor, you have to lean on no probably not. And if there is, it's very very rare or done with. Yeah, I I'm with you. I mean, I think I think there is a there there. I think some of these programs did exist. And then it it's hard for me to believe it was extremely widespread because we just have more of this stuff coming out. But we also we did experiment with parasychology. I do think you get into, you know, deeper levels of of government

or aerospace. I do think people believe that the the mind matter duality thing is not as simple as you know academia sort of presents it. Uh class 4 is the orb. Um we've only seen that a couple years in a row when we did see the class 4. We're doing certain activities for the government that we can't do commercially and we're only able to do them for a limited amount of time with the government. So I can't describe those activities. I can just say that they

were extraordinary and different. And when we did those activities is when we noted the class Um we think it's about two or three years apart across. Um we've only seen it in the infrared short wave and uh uh medium wave infrared. Um that could be due to atmospheric conditions, dust in the air uh uh or other reasons. Um we've never had them on radar that we know of. we have a lot of data to call and it's expensive and hard to analyze. We're working on that.

Um so we relied on look there's an object it's below the cloud deck. It's not returning a laser rangefinder return. Um it's moving against the wind. Um and what we observed was they two of them flew in together on either side of our valley and then camped for about four hours, three and a half hours. Um while actually class ones did something again extraordinary and different. Mhm. And then after the class ones were done, they flew out together. Right. So I don't think celestial bodies could represent like that or present

like that, excuse me. I don't think um you know I don't know of any craft that are that can you know we know the cloud deck wasn't that high that day. in in our estimation any drone or helicopter would have been hearable and visible under those conditions. And these were right here in the sky just just above us 45 degree angle off each horizon. and elevated um and they moved in tandem right as a pair. So again that goes against like celestial bodies that goes against um any known technology

and so we believe that that is a class of UAP. It could be another class that we've never seen do that activity before but you know we have limited data right and we stayed as much. Which class did you add with the psionic assets which you just started working the egg? The egg the class 9. Okay. Fascinating. Well, that dovetales with Jake's story where he said that he was when he retrieved the egg in I think it was uh the mid 2000s on on the range in California. Uh there were some psionic assets present trying to call

the thing in. So that's fascinating. Class 5 is the manta ray. Mhm. Um, it looks like a black body object that might have perhaps vents on top of it that emanate some kind of uh uh I'll just call it plasma, not necessarily plasma, although I do believe plasma is seen in conjunction with UAPs often, but we don't know that, So, emanate something that looks like

Um, and it tumbles and rotates. Again, not too dissimilar from a balloon, but it does things that balloons don't do, like blink out of visibility or uh fly against the wind. It does other things. um uh we we've we've seen the class 5 only twice. Uh I guess three times now. Um so, we have more observations recently in 2025. I think the last time we saw one was like 23. Um and um we don't know a whole lot about it. We have it on radar. We have

it on all the bands of imagery. We don't have any signant for it. It's probably about two and a half meters in diameter and um it just seems to fly through. It doesn't really stop and smell the music or smell the roses, excuse me. It doesn't uh really hang out. It just kind of moves through and and and then leaves. uh until the event with the tic tac where it hovered in the sky and hover. that was so fascinating. It almost sounds like the manta and the tic tac

were like allied against the jellyfish. Like there was this so interest like war of the world or Um so the class 6 is what we call the bright star. Um it vibrates a lot. Mhm. Um, and it uh it it does things to our equipment, whether it's shutting off our equipment or interferes in other ways with our equipment, um, to modify what we think we're

right? So, so there's some signature management. There's absolutely some signature management with class 6. so it doesn't like us to track it, right? It doesn't like us to put eyes on it. We think that sounds like possibly human, but I don't know. Like all things are possible here. Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh uh the classics vibrates uh oscillates very fast. So fast that uh if you're looking at it under camera, you think you see three of them. Uh one unit of measure of the craft

to the left and to the right. Really, it's one vibrating. And you know that because it comes out of the out of the oscillation and stops and then you see it's one craft and then it'll turn it back on and it moves so fast that our system thinks it's a propeller. M so when it when it oscillates as a propeller it thinks interprets it as and then it'll stop oscillating and then just kind of keep continue flying and then the radar will indicate that it's not a propeller anymore. So um it does change brightness.

It'll seem to like get very energetic much like the class 3 blob does. Mhm. It'll it'll emanate more light as it vibrates really fast. And then when the light kind of dies down, it stops vibrating as fast until it stops vibrating completely. And then it'll go back almost like a cycle. Almost like somebody starting a process and that process um that chain continues until it is exhausted and then it returns to its old state. And that's kind of what the impression is of what we're seeing with the class 6.

Class A is the Hornet. Okay. Um we've only seen a a class 8 a couple times. Yep. Um kind of like the class 5 is kind of elusive. We see it a whole bunch. anything specific that you did around that time where the the the Hornet entered or No. Um but the Hornet was the last UAP I Uh in March. Yeah. And that was you were telling me on the phone you got a little discombobulated or something. No, that was actually the tic tac. That was the tic tac story you told.

The class 8 is the one we flew within about 200 meters and couldn't see it. Okay. And so what happened when you chased the hornet? Class 8. Um it continued on its flight path. Didn't deviate. Didn't change. Um but we just couldn't see it and document it. Right. So it just continued on a very slow. It was only moving like 20 knots. Super super slow. Agonizing. so slow. We were just doing orbits trying like get in, you know, chasing in orbits trying to get aligned to it so we could visualize as we went past it. We just couldn't. Wow. Could never see it. Class 9.

Uh the class 9 is the egg. That's the egg. So is this is so fascinating. Is this the hope? Because I you know I spoke to Jake I think it was in January and we had a really interesting discussion. He said he expressed he exuded a lot of confidence. He said in six months we're going to get this thing to land. If all things go well before, I'm trying not to say a date, but within the first half of 2025, we hope to do a demonstration and and invite key members of the public from

institutions [snorts] um and demonstrate this and maybe even get something to the ground. And that's going to answer a lot of questions. That would be absolutely insane. And I don't know, maybe that's a, you know, Elon Musk style timeline that's a little aggressive or something, but is it can you guys get the egg to land? Is that presumably I would assume that's the hope because of his past experience. I look at some of these other classes and to me there's such a gap between

like the I don't know the manta ray or the hornet or some of these things and like you know a concrete object like on the ground that you can like reverse engineer and fly. So is the hope the egg and can you guys bring it down pretty pretty quickly you know through peaceful psionic means or I have no expectation. I literally don't know. Yeah. Like is the egg a real craft? Yeah. Is the thing we imaged with our rudimentary imaging system at the time even there? Right. Um, if it is there, can Jordan or

someone else control it? Right. If they can't control it, are they able to tell it to land and have it land? I would offer in known history that has never happened. Right. And if it has happened, it's in a closed program that nobody knows about. Well, well, according to Jake, it's Well, yes. So, show me the money. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm open-minded. Yeah. I'm hopeful. I would love for that to happen. Yeah, that'd be perfect. That'd be wild. Will it happen? Will it happen in six months? I have no Would I like it to? Of course I would. Is Is that the one you're holding out

hope for as far as some sort of retrieval of actual material or or are there others that you feel might be able to you might be able to derive material from? Or any of these craft appear to have material and technology that we don't understand? So if any of them were to land or crash um that would be very interesting. I can some could be non-physical though. Some are or some sort of plasma ball thing, I accept that could be the case. Some of

them might be holograms or plasmoids or things that if they land there's molten the fan turns to to to glass or metal or whatever. I don't know. Sure. Why not? I believe we have seen four UAPs crash over the years. really? Yep. You've seen them crash. We believe. And I say believe for a lot of reasons. We've seen three class ones um uh when we were doing, you know, in 2023 when we did something special for the government, uh the UAPs behave

And uh we saw about 200 UAPs in a day over a 4-hour period. And they were all almost all class ones at the time. And they were actually coming instead of just flying through our airspace, they were coming from directly over us as if from space. So they would come straight down, and then and then they would eress out lowle away from us. And they did it in ones and twos and threes at a time. We saw about 200 of them total, 200 Um the class ones as they're doing that that's different, right? So, as they

were doing that, we saw three of them that instead of coming in in a low-level egressing came in at an angle from directly overhead and just continued as if to the ground. And they went below the the the ridge And we never saw them come up. You go look for them. Yeah. So, it was actually really bad timing. Um that year we had uh really epic rainfall that afternoon after the show was over. It rained for like two days straight.

Oh man. Um I had to wait about a week and then I took a whole crew um for a uh hunt for a cartel drone that had crashed and we were out there looking for probably six or eight hours. We found And again, what are we looking for? I'm looking for a glass crystal ball. I'm looking for a cube. Am I looking for carcass? Like what am I a tetrahedrin? like what am I looking for? No idea. Um and and some of these deserts are extremely rugged and at the time I didn't have a helicopter. um and then in 2024

we saw a class 8 that started 3,500 meters above us as it came through and it sort the hornet. And then finished at sorty just a couple hundred meters over the ground again right at terrain level. Wow. So, um, we went out this January and flew for probably two hours, hour looking for anything. Again, what are we looking for? Don't know. Extremely rugged and difficult train. So, we think we've seen them crash without us to our knowledge doing anything to cause that,

but we have yet to find any wreckage or find anything to show like there is something here. So fascinating. Do what do you think? Sorry, I keep saying it so bad, but it is like it's just so interesting. Um um do you think that the government could be redte teaming you guys at all? I mean you know uh uh you were in California near Palmdale and then you were also in Finley and Texas and those are near, you know, pretty sensitive training facilities, test sites, that sort of thing. Do you think that any of the prime aerospace

contractors are throwing stuff at you to kind of mess with your reconnaissance systems or mess with your detection systems or so? I would offer my opinion is no. And the reason why is the craft we are seeing are conducting explicitly illegal operations of these guys. They're invisible. There's no markers. They don't have ADSB. They don't have AIS. They don't have anything on board to show their presence. Also, they're flying adjacent to or in

commercial air corridors, right, where all our commercial traffic fly. And they're flying at flight levels. We see them at flight level 180. We see them, I presume, higher uh than 180. We know higher, but we can't measure it because it's too high for a radar to reach. So, um, whoever is doing this, if it is domestic, like they need to be they need to, you know, uh, get their affairs in order before they get caught. because um if it is domestic then they're breaking the law you know feloniously would you have a say a MC West we just

talked about debunkers MC West or somebody like that out on the range to try to stress test you know what what you're doing yeah um I I think we're willing to work with certain people um frankly personally like I have no time for debunkers if someone starts saying I want to debunk I just kind of get angry and kind of want to like lash out like Like just be open-minded. Just listens. Take off your lenses. Of opinions and just open your mind and and accept. Yeah. Uh let us let us give you share some knowledge so we can learn together.

Uh should we should we invite out a MC West or whatever? Maybe that could happen. Yeah. Um but frankly like I have no interest in him. But you would take a credentialed scientist out there who doesn't necessarily have a you know an a priori interest in UFOs. Yeah. Absolutely. Because understand the difference. One entity is is hostile and extremely opinionated and has a preconceived notion of what you're saying and the other entity is open-minded and willing to understand what you're saying before they formulate

their opinion. For sure. And so the one uh the hostile one like again it uh I treat hostility with hostility. I have no desire to work with, talk to, interact or face with them because bad things will happen and it's bad for everybody. Yeah. Right. So, um, uh, I'd rather focus on the people who actually, um, are open-minded, have the intelligence necessary to understand the problem, and aren't, uh, simpleans. Yeah. You know, Yeah. What, uh, what's your take on the Jersey drone situation? We were, we were just talking about that before we

started rolling, and it still feels so frustratingly inconclusive. You have the White House saying that they were FAA research drones after Trump, I think, told his, you know, special assistant, "Go look into this." And that was just such an unsatisfying answer for so many, you know, residents of Jersey. Um, what do you think was happening? I think um, one of our adversaries has the ability to fly with impunity and operate in our airspace and we are helpless to stop it.

That's insane. That's really scary. Um, and any reason to believe that that you can discuss publicly or uh I I think that uh Langley Air Force Base based on uh news articles was probably done by China. And um that was 17 days of just completely unperturbed incursions. Yes. Exactly. And and I think that uh you know we know that the HAB the balloon that flew through was from China. Mhm. Um, so there's only one entity that has

a past performance to my knowledge of flying in our airspace with apparent impunity uh with us not doing anything to stop it and that's China. So why wouldn't you naturally arrive at a sustained uh intrusion in our airspace? Why wouldn't you assume it's China until proven otherwise if you have two explicit examples of very high likelihood being China or we know it's China. So the question we have to ask ourselves is are the craft we're seeing group three drones? Are they UAPs

operated by China and and what are the pre permutations thereof? Like what does it mean if it is or isn't a UA? Can they carry payloads if they're flying with exotic flight principles? I mean that's a really scary possibility. And what is the purpose if if it is a a China or Russia or whoever it is? To what end? Why would they do that to the the American populace? Why would they continue when they know we're looking? Is it to show our incompetence? Is it is it to derail our national

security apparatus and say like look how incompetent you are. We can do what we want. Is it because that's why I have trouble believing it's China, right? It's just so I mean what a flex, right? Like if you're doing that over residential neighborhoods in Jersey, that's kind of an act of war. That's I think that's why our government's Right. Because on the one hand, our government whose job is to protect the nation can't come out and be Like it cannot be done. Totally. Like they have to be able to protect us.

I think in the 60 Minutes uh uh article or or episode they did on this, they spoke with the NORAD and he said something that was very telling. He said that um uh we have allowed uh technology uh the threat to grow. we don't have technology to match something something along those lines. Basically meaning that maybe whoever is doing this has a capability that we have not uh grown defensive technology enough to It's freaky. Well, then you have the

Trump statement at the time where he goes uh Biden knows they know what this is. It's coming from a garage. It's very strange. We know where the garage is. And that makes me think NHI. Our military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. I can't imagine it's the enemy because if it was the enemy, they'd blast it out. Even if they were late, they'd blast it. Uh something strange is going on. For some reason, they don't want to tell the

people, and they should. And then you had that, I think, sheriff, the local sheriff in New Jersey saying that he thought he saw them come out of the water. And you know, trans medium is this, you know, important observable of UAPs. and uh you know there were rumors of underwater bases and that sort of thing. So that made me think maybe NHI but it's well I mean it's also I we talked about this with Jake it could be a mix you know you could use the presence of NHI UAP to opportunistically flood the zone and that it's extremely

hard to figure out what's what. Yeah, I think so. I'm open to all concepts here. I personally, my opinion is that it's probably adversary. It's probably China. But um there's so many unknowns like like um how how do you figure it out and tell the tale? I hope at the highest level we've figured it out whether it's adversary or NHI. I hope I hope somebody knows because Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I hope they do too. I like to have faith in my government and believe that they are doing the

right thing. I know I was in the government for a long time. I know a lot of government officials um generally very very good patriots who love their country and want nothing but the best for all of us. So I hope I really hope that they do have this figured out and that they have a capability and that we can rest easy and not worry about it. But there's the potential that some of that might not be the case that maybe they haven't figured it out. So in five years from today, do you have any hopes, dreams, expectations for

Yeah, I would like to have Skywatcher as part of the Golden Dome. I would like to be uh proactive on the UAP problem. We have a technology to detect UAPs. Uh we're growing that technology. That technology should be everywhere. Um not because I'm a capitalist and want to make a lot of money. Of course, of course most people want to make money and be independently wealthy. but for the national security implications of here's a phenomena, here's a thing on our airspace moving with impunity through our air corridors and nobody

knows anything about it. So if we deploy the right sensors in the right mix, we we can become masters of our airspace and become air aware if you will of what's going on. So that's why we started Skywatcher. That's why we're developing the technology and in 5 years it'd be wonderful if it's deployed and then now we can have a body of knowledge and data on this phenomena on this threat on this instance of what's occurring and be able to make educated decisions at that Have you seen the movie Arrival?

Yes. Do you ever think like, you know, a lot of what you guys are doing is, you know, kind of initiating contact in some ways and is it worth getting a symbologist on staff or, you know, some some cultural anthropologist or something? Or is it is it worth thinking about how, you know, if we are interacting with them eventually in a more intimate way than like, you know, just sensors. um you know making sure that that those first interactions are friendly and good to the extent that you

know that might dictate you know future I mean possibly. Yeah. I mean I don't think the Skywatcher team is first Right. If the if our government has been interacting with these things for decades that's first contact. We're second third or 90th right in the we're just the first public. Well, you hear rumors around that stuff where it's like I don't know. I have no idea how much weight to put in this, but it's like the aliens are or the NHI are coming back for their stuff and they're not happy that, you know, the way the

government has interacted with the material and that sort of thing. It's, you know, to weaponize this stuff and it's not to create, you know, civil side propulsion or whatever. And that could totally be a bunch of mushyrained woo woo UFO people. um you know just saying you know of which I can be one sometimes or whatever you know just engaging wishful thinking but um yeah do you lend any credence to any of that stuff or I think I think there's a lot of smoke right I don't know where the fire is at

right it's really really hard to see again I said before that I think that there there are elements of our government and other governments who are using information operations warfare on this topic I don't know their motives. I don't know to what end, but I think it's in our face that that's happening. Um, look at the second episode and look at Reddit and how it blew up with all these apparent bots talking a lot of negative trash about Skywatcher and Balloons.

Like, somebody paid money for that. Like, is Mick West working for somebody? Is somebody paying him money? Good question. Are these paid actors? Yeah. um are those paid actors employing uh different technology to subvert knowledge or or modify knowledge, right? And to what end? Um so I do think that there's evidence there that evidence could be studied. Again, that costs money to do, right? It costs a lot of money to go and research a bunch of Reddit users and show it's a botnet and like it's doable. It's just

expensive, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's my belief that that those things are happening. um maybe it's not America, maybe it's our adversaries who are controlling some of those messages. for their own motives and means, but as a civilian, it's really hard to say why, but the what, I think, is fairly obvious that that has happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. James Fowler, this is an honor, man. I appreciate your time. This is fascinating, and I'm I'm curious to see where all of your efforts go. Thanks, Jesse. Awesome. Appreciate it.