Presidential Advisor: “I Directly Handled UFO Material” (Ft. Harald Malmgren)

m off the coast of Florida. Strategic Air Command was placed in Defcon 2, the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States. Kruev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood. We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the Security Council be convoked without delay. Curtis Lameé, head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force, wanted to deal

a death blow to the Soviets. Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamera called one of his top aids, a 27-year-old whiz kid named Harold Malgrren into the situation room. Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down. reduce the heat in the room and give us time to work something out. Miraculously, the Hail Mary worked.

Harold, the youngest man in the situation room, ran circles around one of the most aggressive fourstar generals in American history. And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, "What would be your prime target first?" Yeah. I said, "It's madness. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to." And then that's at that point, right, Lame storms out. Yeah. No, he he literally got up and slammed his papers down. I can't I'm not going I'm I I refuse to

run with this. Malgrim went on to become a top presidential adviser for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And the fact that he neutralized Lame and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him. You've been dropping bombs on [music] the internet, saying some amazing things. JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president.

taken at all seriously alongside his credentials and background would wholesale overturn your worldview. No, he said Hamlet. These are things that have come down. So, you're looking at like material, anomalous material. Debris. Yeah. and will hopefully do the same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Islands nuclear test. This is world history. It's the

also themselves to protect the world. The Majestic 12 is an elite group of military science and government advisers governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the 80s and '90s. But this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name. You have uncovered collaboration between Nola Tesla and Thomas Towns and Brown. What source did you get it from? We get into the Chinese science fiction

As Pippa relayed to me, a lot of these high-level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called The Threebody Problem, which became mandatory reading among many highlevel national security advisers in the United Then to fast forward, spending time with my own father. Yes. [music] And discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days. Finally, we discuss secret science going on at sensitive department of energy

Forest Gump of global elite politics. Be looked for me, found me in the crowd, brought me over, and he introduced me to Putin. Now, I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting. It became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratched the surface on. You are now part of a network of [music] people. It will be known that you've been blessed. If I had a choice, I would

have spent weeks with Harold going deep on his vast knowledge of UFOs, deep politics, and global power structures. interview, we had to rush him to the hospital. That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating in his tragic passing. insisted on speaking to me on the phone to follow up.

His vitals on the cusp of failure. Just 3 days before his death, he revealed even more to me. Things that will make you further question your reality. If you ask me, did I have a purpose? In this final courageous interview, Harold Malmgrren transcends his earthly oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to humanity. One that may end up being just

as consequential as saving the [music] Earth from nuclear catastrophe. Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist. May he rest in peace. Presidential adviser and international peacekeeper, the Honorable Harold Malmgrren. Harold. It's Jesse. Oh, hi Jesse. How are you? Good man. I'm How are you is the more important question. You scared me last I'm having to explain

step by step who I am, how I happen to be here. And each person says, "Oh, I didn't know and just honored to be here. Uh I'm here with Dr. Harold Malgrim, who was a presidential adviser to four different presidents, [music] uh JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You

helped stop uh a couple of global crises, and we're going to get into that. Um, but I think for the purposes of this conversation, you've been uh dropping bombs on the internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality, non-human intelligence, UFOs, or as they're commonly referred to now, UAPs, [music] and informal briefs that you've gotten on the subject. And so, I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all this. And we also

have Dr. Pipla Malgrim who is equally amazing and she [music] uh was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his national economic council. She's written a few great books. I recommend you you all check them out and uh she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well. So I'm honored to be here with both [music] of you guys. Thank you so much for having us. Well, I'm I'm honored because I've watched your work um with several people and you you've done an amazing job. the the most one

uh known as one of Robert McNamera's whiz kids, quote unquote, and uh just this kind of child prodigy, but you grew up on the other side of the tracks. And so uh I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood. Well, I was born up born in the middle of the Great and um my mother and father were immigrants from Sweden. We lived right by Naragans at Bay just off the Atlantic

when I was just turning seven. My mother said, "Well, this is the day you have to start working. So when you come home from school down of the water and bring home dinner rationing at that time, meat rationing. So I learned to use a boat, learn to fish, learn to get crab traps. They even had lobster traps,

dig up shellfish. So every day brought home something. It became second nation. Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice big piece of ice because we didn't have refrigerators. Completely heavy. I was still little. Anyway, when I was 13 going on 14 was before my 14th My father was had found work as a restoration specialist and we restored

old mansions in Newport around Boston, particularly near We were working on this big house. He said, "Can you help me? It's a summer." And so I was working with steel wool and and some kind of solution to clear walnut panels. And this big gentleman came in the room

and said, "Hello, young man. What are you doing?" Yeah, I'm helping my my dad. He said, "Sit down and talk to me." And that was a little bit unusual. Why Why does he want to talk to me? Anyway, we talked about what are you doing at school? What are you learning about? Two hours later, my father and said, "I want to take this boy out of your school. I want to come

in September and metriculate in MIT and um we'll give him a full scholarship all four years. I'm not sure he needs the full four years. We give him all the years he needs. We'll give him internship. You don't have to worry about summers. And if all goes, well, we'll take him all the way to graduate I said, well, wait a minute. I'm not ready to leave home.

And he said, listen to me. I'm really offering you a whole new life. He said, "Yeah, but I like my lunch." But Carl come to he said he was president of MIT. And I didn't know then the whole history of the large role he played in the Second World War. I think he was in charge of the war production board at some point. So this was Carl Compton who was the sitting president of MIT which allowed

him uh he had the power to offer you a full ride. Power to do that. Yeah. we ended up friendly, he said you talked about things that at the very frontier of physics and you at at 13 or 14. Yeah. He said you stunned me because you brought up what is a photon? Why don't we understand it? Why we had a picture of it? We have a picture of everything else. No

photon. I said I thought about it and thought about it. I didn't know Einstein's dilemma. I just So I said it's something that operates in interaction with something else. Probably another photon and probably it's in pulses and probably there doesn't matter how far apart. It's just that interaction but you can't get a picture of it because those pulses are so too fast.

and just two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably as many and that's the problem that you're trying to get at something specific when it's not specific. And he said, "No, it's not that." So you don't understand. You you have an inventive mind. You see beyond what the biggest minds I said yes, but I'm not ready to go home and leave home.

concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to. Not only because he was too young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally yet. Entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but Malgrim was

saying this at the age of 14 in 1950. And while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in 1935, [music] the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the 60s and 70s with Bell's inequality theorem and with the measurements of physicist John Clauser. So how did young Malgrim understand this concept at 14 as a poor painter's son?

my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career. But the key was before you met Carl Compton, you'd written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on nuclear physics. So you'd at that age already read an immense amount. Can we show some of that correspondence? Do we have the This is amazing.

This here the the control of atomic energy. So this is what they sent back. Yeah. Not only that you [clears throat] genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. See that's really interesting. They were they were really interested in the the genetic stuff. And you have delevation, Hopkins who is rumored to be on this quote unquote majestic 12 and do autopsies on non-human intelligence bodies. And so, and then you had all

these studies going on at the time, like the um uh Cambridge Labs where you had the Polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation. And Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area 51 where they were doing a lot of, you know, human genetic experimentation, visav radiation as well. And again, some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And when I came across them in dad's old files, I'm like, "What the heck are these?" And they're from the Atomic Energy

Commission, and they're photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These are Geiger counters. Is that right? You were telling me last night. This is Hiroshima. Credit US Air Force. This is amazing. So that's why he knew a lot at that age. And Carl Compton starts to register the president of MIT that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paint bucket for his dad and he knows a lot about

Uh and so I think that's where this began. He was identified at a very early As someone with a very particular And then fast forward because you know I looked at my dad's career. I look back and I'm like, how the heck did you end up at age 27 being the joint liaison between the joint chiefs and the president of the United States, National Security Council under Bob McNamera and

JFK just as the Cuban missile crisis at and you know dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made and he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe. That's so amazing. Which is a story I think you should. Yeah. I can't wait to hear. But clearly you had been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is a letter that you're receiving from Oakidge National Labs and

it's atomic bomb engineering. So, it's clear that they are like, "Okay, here's this whiz kid. Let's give him a limited information set. See what he can do with it and maybe have some sort of initiation path." how you almost, you know, serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house holding a paint bucket. I don't quite know. I don't can't explain that. Who is this Carl Compton? Well, he served as the president of MIT from 1930

to 1948. During that time, he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's [music] National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Vanavar Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion of American military supremacy. At MIT, Compton was heavily involved in the famous RAD lab and its [music] development of American radar. His top technical aid was John Trump. If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting president, Donald

Trump. And John Trump was charged with investigating Tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States. One of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas [music] Towns and Brown's Philadelphia experiment. But I was particularly looking for something which would uh dis be evidence of a secret weapon which was a matter of concern to the United States. But I digress. For the purposes of this

conversation with Harold, Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First, you have Robert Sarbacher, former head of Washington National Labs, also one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Sarbacher is famously on record saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Sarbacher also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Freriedman that none other than MIT President Carl [music] Compton was briefed on UFO

technology at Wright Airfield in 1950. But there are more UFO touch points for [music] Compton. Another researcher in California named William Steinman had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive director of the guided missile committee for the DoD's R&D board from 1949 to 1954. Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying [music] saucers at the highest level. Dr. Vanavar Bush, Dr. Lloyd Burkner, Dr.

Robert F. Reinhardt, Dr. [music] Eric A. Walker, Dr. John von Noman and one Dr. Carl T. Compton. researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a reply back in April of 2014. Quote unquote, records which may [music] have been responsive to your request were destroyed August 30th, 2006.

on an innocent university professor? And why would they have a file on him in the first place? Those are good questions. And how did little Harold Malgrim somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's house a couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program? That might be an even better question. Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Shelling who was father of game theory. Yes. Application to conflict

resolution across many different things but nuclear. Um and working with many Nobel Prize winners including Sir John Hicks at Oxford. Um, and so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners and he asked them, "Who's your brightest kid?" And dad's name just kept showing up on the list. It's fascinating. So then, okay, what what happens? So you're recognized by Carl Compton. You have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy

Commission. How do you end up from that situation to the situation room during the Cuban missile crisis as you the youngest person in the room? Yeah, I'm still trying to reconstruct how that [laughter] happened. Yeah, I was still a good athlete and a really top student. I was ranked as first along with another person who later became chief justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had

moved from physics to economics because I thought I have my parents need help and I get older. I need to do something makes money. Economics sounds like So I got a grant from Yale to go to go somewhere and I wanted to go to Oxford as a dream and um I went there really fell in love with it. Um I didn't really study anything specific. I went to everything.

Mhm. And um and then I met a lady there who was American and as those things happened um got pretty attached and I came back from after my one year grant to Harvard and um after I was partly way through the first term, Mc George Bundy who was then dean had me and he and and we hear you taking you to

leave again to go back to Oxford, but we want to offer you something special. We'll give you three years all expenses including summer and all you got to do is write a book. You don't have to attend any classes. If you write the book, we'll almost certainly publish it and that will be your PhD. And this is at Harvard. Yeah. So that's a great deal. Yeah. He said it's a great he said a

great deal and I said yeah but my brain was somewhat clouded by this girl. But um also Oxford offered me they said just come here but we'll take care of you. You can do your PhD here. And um so I did that married that girl was mother and um you there's always an element of

um in unexpected ways in particular among males. But at Arford, Sir John Hooks decided well he and his wife invited me to dinner and she explained she was a public finance expert. So she decided explained to me her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come along once every 25, 30, 40 years. She said at

you you went deep into mathematical So I told my husband that you got to convince this young man to just dump all that in a storage shed and start working more fundamentally at behavioral And um he did I remember the first paper

I gave him was really a moment of insight. I gave this paper nine pages roughly full of math and he said this looks very interesting. Come back next week after I've read it. Come back next week. He said don't sit here in the student reception room. Come into my inner chambers. sit down here by the fire. I thought, "Is this bad or good?"

And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good. He said, "But you know, it took me an entire week to find it out." How many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime are going to spend three or four days of your time of their time trying to understand you? He said, "I think this is not the way to make progress." So he said, "It's near the end of term. I want you to go get a hold of his big

amount of given decline and fall, which is in several volumes, and read everything you can before the vacation period is over." Decline and fall of around. Yeah, I g. So I came back. He said, "What have you learned?" I said, "Well, I only got to something chapter, whatever." And he said, "That's not bad." The reason I wanted you to read that a dead run is because you have to know how

it was written. Given didn't do it brick by brick. He wrote it at a dead run from his mind and said, "You got to learn to do that. You have plenty to say. You know how to say it. So write it that way. Don't stop to see if you can fit it into some model." And um so we had a marvelous experience. And

then soon afterwards he said the people you should meet. So some of the best people at Cambridge came to see me famous names. And then he said um hire meet you. So he came I spent time with him. For me it was big. I knew who he was. It

was very impressive. And then on another occasion, there had been a big debate in the 19 20s going to the 30s between Luding on behalf of the Austrian capitalism economist and communist central

Oscar Lang came to Oxford. They have dinner with me. We had a I said centralization automatically degrades itself because you restricts everybody from innovation, adaptation. Once you do that, there's no change. So you would be more on the Austrian school side. Yeah. Yes. Okay. I I am too. Yeah. Well, although I'm far inferior economics,

I'm still at the same I'm totally convinced that China will collapse because of over centralization. um by the way, in the 1980s, I was in China for some kind of a SRI Stanford Research Institute. Yeah. And they invited me along and the senior Chinese very interesting this is years later say can we have dinner with you

Well okay why not? So three of the most senior economic we had long we know about your work on Really? How do you know about? We had your thesis translated and we talked to Australia and some other people. We had an argument. I said over

centralization will be will bring you destruction. It's impossible. It's too big to manage. so going back to Oxford, I finished up there and there was a bidding war like an NBA or national football bidding So MIT and Stanford and Harvard and some

others Princeton offered me a post and Cornell said we'll trump the others. We'll offer you a a new chair just endowed now. So you will you can bypass the normal process of several years from assistant professor, associate professor. eventually you can at the top. So I said okay I'll I accept

and I came to with Pipper's mother. Pipper was born in May of that year and um we were living in the house of Labacov the Russian author. Wow. He was on leave and I leased from in Ithaca, New York. Yeah. It was an adventure and he was something impressive. I mean all these fortunate developments

happened in my life. By the way, these also became clues for me later because I realized Nabokov was said to be a CIA asset and was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda. And you know there are lots of stories about the intelligence agencies using Dr. Javago as a as a medium for fermenting

opposition within the Soviet Union. And so I was kind of like, how the heck do we end up in Nabacov's house? Oh wow. And maybe the answer was that you know there was already at that time uh an intelligence world that you know in later years because of dad's work in nuclear negotiations that again maybe he'd been kind of identified early on but I I would love for you dad to just dive into. You are in the situation

room. You are down to the last 3 hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear go button. And can you just what was it like in that moment and how did you avert the nuclear crisis? military equipment under shipment to Cuba is being initiated. I was appointed leazison between

and M George Bundy and the and JFK. I mean pretty critical job. McNamera's secretary of defense at the And um so all right, I'm there and I'm wondering what I'm going to work on. And suddenly the Cuban missile crisis and I get a call. Um Bob wants you to work directly with a small group in the war room. I

said what's the war room? It's where the generals meet and decide go no go cuz they have the weapons and the white house doesn't have them. And um so this is Bob Mcame. He wants you to he want me to be there in that room as his guy. They would know I'm his guy. And um I said, "Yeah, they're not going to be eager to hear from this young sport." He said, "Don't

tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down. Reduce the heat in the room. Get everybody more calm. And um if you just keep asking questions and make them think, you'll be surprised how far that goes. And and it buys us time, takes the pressure off from them because

there are some people in in that group I didn't realize was Kurdish. They were worried about who wants to go ahead and punish Russia for even trying. so I get started in that and after a few days got used to the group. They got used to me. They didn't ask me to get the coffee. They treated me like, "Okay, belong there." And I didn't say anything that made them. I didn't talk down to them.

I asked them how's your wife today. And um we got to the last hours, roughly four hours, when JFK we we put a quarantine around Cuba, if you if one of your ships breaks through the quarantine, that will be an act of war and we will take action. We didn't specify

and Among the generals, there were What should we do? Do we take out the missiles that are in Cuba? Well, we don't know whether some are armed or not. Do we know that that they have the ability to to do more than we see? Um, might they start World War II in order to take get a step ahead? This was a time of mutually assured

destruction. It was like really And um so in that final hours waiting to see if they were going to stop or not. And there was communication going on none of us were privy to between Kush and JFK. And there was one additional element. The history books have omitted

the Russian ambassador he arrived that year in Washington. He was unique. He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of the central committee in Moscow. They sent him to Washington as the highest ranking politician in Moscow and in that position he was able to

himself talk with the top people in the central in the in those final hours, agitation level was high. We all sat down after somebody had coffee break and one of the senior generals sent a signal. I don't know.

We didn't have cell phones. an aid came in said, "I want you to call Mary, my wife, tell her to load the car, get everything ready to go and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place, and then let's resume now, Yeah. It's like literally, Mary, take the kids and get out of here, right? Like we're about to be at the end. Oh, God. Right. And and this is the bit, Dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis

Lame who wants to drop a nuke. So maybe Doctor Strange Love wasn't so It was based on him. Yeah. Let me finish the story. They um so in the group I said gentlemen every all the thinking of the last ever since the bomb was dropped in in all the thinking is about mutually assured destruction. If we go we both

get obliterated. Does this make any sense to any of us in this room? there must be some degree of action less than that. And they all said, "Yeah, well, we haven't explored that." I said, "Yeah, we don't have any any idea of small steps um or But what but I mean I mean if we attack

Russia but but are we really ready for that? No. Um now if we attack Cuba and Russia thinks it's the first step that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor. Well that would be bad. We can't know what they're thinking, but we have to kind of think about that. Or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at

us, but a little bit makes us pissed off and then we decide to unload everything. And Lame is in this group saying, "My strategic bombers are ready." Um, he normally had all these missiles, his his nickname is bombs away. I had no I had no idea what a miserable arrogant guy this was. I mean, I just

there was nothing written a lot about him other than he was um super aggressive. But is he chief of staff of the air force at this time? uh certain air command command. Okay. And it's important that you mention how he says, "My guys, we keep setting them up to the point of no return." Yeah, that's what I wanted to say that the um he said in the room to all these other generals and

um you can't imagine the morale problem I have. Every day I send my boys out there, they reach the point of no return where they if they keep going, they'll run out of And he said, "I have to order them back." He said, "The morale is really I'm they're ready." He's playing with millions of people's lives to make sure that the morale of his, you know, units are are okay.

Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must, but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed tops depending on the brakes. That's he said that and everybody in the room looked down at their lap. They didn't want to eyeball him, you know, Yeah, I didn't hear that. Yeah. It's like if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I mean, he's also, for the context, for the audience, he was in charge of the 509th atomic bomber squadron in Roswell, New Mexico

that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yeah. Well, and he was in charge of all the fire bombing in Germany. I mean, yeah, his idea of enemy is obliterate them. Anyway, I didn't know what I was up against, but you know, it might have scared me, but it didn't. So I I said, "Well, let's all the rest of us, let's contemplate the options." We slowly talked and then it

turned out that we got word the Russians stopped the the boats at the point of quarantine. I said, "Can we agree that we should back off? and co said no way we've got to teach them a lesson that they messing with us they have to have something to remember we need to s we need some surgical

strikes on Russia it doesn't have to be but we need to make it painful and I said but that leads us back into will they think that this is just the beginning of Armageddon. We we we simply haven't had a discussion. We have no communication channel to deal with that. It doesn't make sense. I It seems to me

backing off for now and letting the discussions continue. How do we avoid this being the pre preference? And every all the generals agreed and the the one that had called his wife pushed the button. His aid came in saying, "Call Mary back. Tell her unload the car." But but you also made a a suggestion if you hit Moscow, there wouldn't be

anybody to negotiate with. And further, if you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't hit Moscow, maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in the room just loved that. And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, "What would be your prime target first?" And then they say Moscow. And then you say, "Oh, if it was if it's Moscow, then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody to negotiate with." That's we went through that because I I

said it's madness. You don't If you're going to start something and you need to stop in that system, there's only one point of decision. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to. And then that's at that point, right? Lame storms out and gets all angry. Is that is that right or something? Yeah. No, he he literally got up, slam his papers down. I can't I'm not going I'm not I I refuse to grind with this.

That man is a really maniac. But I have to tell you I did not buckle. No, I know you didn't. Now he had by the way just before that raised the voting level to defcon 2 and it was not approved by the He did it unapproved. He raised the one level of the death to have that power. I mean we surprised but anyway he may have had that power.

It it was personal. Somehow it all radiated. This is not about Russians only. Something something was going on in his head. We learned later about some of the other things but well and you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well. Which is this crucial kind of juncture where uh you know I think actually Eisenhower kind of left his his second term slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially he was willing to kind

of go along with his plans and JFK didn't quite know what to think and after the Bay of Pigs it was really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of you know quote unquote deep state and uh they had sort of their own plans and they re they really wanted to uh oust uh Castro and and Gavvara and then you had JFK and and he felt like this whole thing was just botched and they they send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution, but it's kind of half done

and the exiles are actually left kind of isolated. Doesn't quite work out. And then you have this rift where you have people like Curtis Lame and Allan Dulles in complete loggerheads with JFK. JFK gets angry. He says, "I want to scatter the CIA to the winds." President saying he's going to bring the CIA into 1,000 pieces. Is that roughly right? Yeah, that's right. So this this was the this that period to what became a clash over how do we respond when we have an

and the main said at least let me send my bombers up to some strategic facilities of the Russians. But how do you sort it out for the Russians point of view? Bombers coming at us. We don't know their trajectory. We can't study that. It's not like a missile. You know once it's fired, you know where it's going. So high risk.

And I said this doesn't make sense. So everybody agreed except and he blew up when he thought he was going to Well, I mean, I didn't know that this was a moment of history that somehow my arguments won, but on the other hand, I thought this is why Maxima sent me down here. Mhm. Well, that seems it's such an act of genius to him on his part to to call

you in as a 27-year-old to stagnate these sort of more aggressive, you know, guys like Curtis Lameé. And you think of the way Robert McNamera is depicted in like, you know, Errol Morris's fog of war, just as an example, and he's seen as this sort of wararmonger. And this, you know, cuts completely against that. McNamer, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000 burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none and then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and

been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're Yeah. He know his instruction he said these guys are coming in that room and several of them have sidearms that are fully loaded with the safety Oh my god. They had to go said your task is lower the temperature. Yeah. Wow. And see if you can't stretch it out.

Give us time to work something out. What foresight on his part? and experimental activity for the 1962 high alitude weapon effects testing termed operation fishbowl.

Well, I arrived in Washington summer of In 61 there were two highlevel um tests of an incoming missile and an interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it. Those two tests failed. Summer of 62, I arrived and first I'm in the middle of this [clears throat] missile crisis and then

before it's barely over, will give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti-missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future. I said, "Yeah, that's something that DARPA should do with a bastard." They said, "No, no. What we want is a concise

top back of the envelope calculation. What should be the elements of it? What would it cost and how much would it cost for the enemy to offset? I said, "Okay, I'll take it on." And I got that assignment. I'm thinking, "Holy um, this is huge." And they gave me these people in the joint chiefs of staff in the weapon systems evaluation

group. Who am I talking to these guys? Missile defense was a major priority for the United States in the heart of the Cuban missile crisis. While American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets, the US still didn't have precise ways of defending against a nuclear attack. But there were some novel ideas in missile defense at the time. In 1961, the Rand Corporation wrote a report called Some New Considerations Concerning the Nuclear

Test Ban, [music] which highlighted the susceptibility of the US ICBM re-entry vehicles to high energy X-rays. To say this is a piece of steel and it's in outer space. If you impinge high energy X-rays on this side, so what that does is blows chunks off the inside [music] at hypersonic speeds. This novel insight made its way into the Operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests. Here's where it gets interesting. These

X-ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs. number three. in that series in October was a success if I remember the days. It was while we were busy with Cuba. Yeah, it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis actually, the Bluegill Triple Prime. So, it was October of 1962. So, I got a report

because I'm in charge of this new project, the same report that went to Now you can assume JFK it was read by Mc George Bundy. That's his job. I knew if it it must have been read by Maxim and John McNorton the general council because they were all and almost certainly LBJ because vice president. Anyway,

lo and behold, they dashed down. I said, "Wait, I'm puzzled here." In what the report you've given me, you have a video videos of taking down this incoming missile with especially enhanced X-ray projection Uh but when you did that, you noticed

that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen and joined and tagged along following the incoming missile down. But by the way, can I just interject because for me and I'm I kind of got my dad a little up to speed on the whole why is Congress pursuing nonhuman intelligence? Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? Um, and so when we started to talk about this and so he says there's this orb

around the missile. And I'm like, so didn't you think that was weird? And I realized that actually I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't they knew it wasn't Russian. They knew it wasn't in those days it was never going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So dad said, "Yeah, we called it a tag along." I'm like, "A tag along?" Like, "Didn't you ask what it was?" And and he

sort of replied in such a way that I nobody asked any questions at that time. And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions. When I saw this which I call a tag along, that's what you would call them, What else? So that it's so casual that you just call them tag alongs. That's why I think they were so inured to seeing them. They were like, "Yeah, this tag along." The UFO nuclear connection was [music] a

Mark IV re-entry vehicle attached to an Atlas 8F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral [music] in the Atlantic Missile Range in September. [music] that test. the video, an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re-entry vehicle, which is traveling at 20,000 ft per second or Mach 18. The

official US Air Force NASA postflight report even states that the object's quote unquote origin or identification could not be determined. test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Bluegill triple prime test in October of 1962 in the Marshall Islands. The point is this

was the backdrop for the bluegill tests, one in which the military, scientific, and political elite in America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons. Anyway, when the when the incoming missile reacted to this blast of X-ray, um at that moment the report said this appeared to knock down

device they called it. I said the tag And um so I got really I didn't react to it with shock. I I s thought let's find out what that was. And um was there a recovery? Yes, the Navy had recovered but but fell. Tell me about it. Oh, we can't do that. You have need to know about the incoming missile and the test but not about the T

nuclear weapons. Why was that separate? Because that was managed by the atomic energy commission. There that was in law separate. But it's it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of uh bound up in atomic secrecy in the Atomic Energy The guys that were involved in [snorts] Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to uh protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets.

And you don't even have access to the UFO stuff with all of your queue test were gathering footage. Australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Krookshank, who's done the most in-depth analysis of this test, calls these two pieces [music] of footage kettle one and kettle 2. A bright fiery object tumbles out from within uh the nuclear fireball.

You believe that that [music] is some kind of craft? just like the one that was following uh the Atlas 8F test, but this [music] time it was a real warhead. You can see clearly from the Kettle 1 footage of the nuclear blast an unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball. The official report written about this test at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. The report

tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage. Quote unquote, there is no evidence to indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball, so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile. were declassified to the public in 1998. At the declassification review, the Defense Special Weapons Agency led by Dr. Byron L. wrist vet applied a large white triangle to the footage,

sanitizing it, right where you can see the object tumbling out of the plume in the kettle one footage. There's well-known animosity between Los Alamos and Lawrence Liverour Labs. Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft, Los Alamos ran the other. The reason why [music] the kettle one footage was declassified and kettle 2 wasn't was simply a personal uh difference in what should remain [music] classified and what Then on October 21st, 2023, when Jeffrey

Kruchank sent a mandatory declassification review [music] request to the Department of Energy asking them to declassify this Kettle 2 footage which had been sanitized. [music] The Department of Energy responded saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They were literally saying they lost the footage of one of their most important highaltitude [music] nuclear tests. And maybe all you need to know is that Bluegill Triple Prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear [music] tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized

and classified to this day. Sorry, that's classified. and tellingly look at what happened when a Freedom of Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration generally around these 1962 Operation Dominic tests. The exact request was for all records that quote unquote mention or relate to Starfish Prime and any of [music] the following UFO, AP, UAV, AAV, any acronym [music] used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects. The

National Nuclear Security Administration responded. The letter back in June of 2022 reads, "It was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert [music] with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required. experts on UFOs? Second of all, this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act request. that specifically ask for information on

UFOs. And what about the most senior official present at Operation Bluegill Triple Prime? If you're a head honcho and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business as usual. Well, the logs of a nearby Navy ship, the USS Summit County, refer to a SOPA, or a senior officer present a float being on board the ship. That officer was General Alfred Starboard, the Joint Task Force 8 commander of Operation Dominic. He was positioned around 15 nautical miles from surface zero of Bluegill Triple Prime, which is

the closest allowable distance by the range safety officer. William Ogle, the Los Alamos J division weapons design chief, was General Star's deputy for Operation Dominic. Ogle writes that General Starboard left Johnston Island at 4:00 a.m. the night of Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from Johnston Island in under four hours. There were still very important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately. Maybe because of this successful UFO tagalong

project designation was this, you know, but you we didn't anticipate unidentified object, but it's not part of your designation. So, I said that that's [ __ ] [laughter] So, I said, I need to know what you Now, I'm sure in different words that's what came out of the White House to the

people running the test who were under the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission Lawrence Geese who was in charge of all this stuff. He was head of the Albuquerque division of atomic energy commission but he was running everything that he oversaw everything that had to do with Los Alamos and highle test and he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal

grandfather through adoption. of his earlier reminiscences to reporters. He spent all his summers with his grandfather. Interesting. Really? Yes. Yes. Ah grandfather had a farm.

So he I'm sure he had several summers of and looked out there and now he's got Blue Origin. It's so f it's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it seems. Right. So two things happened. I pressed You know you you have to let me know what took place. So they said well for that you have to come down to Los Al. You pressed hard with Lawrence G and he said I want to know.

I didn't know with him that I was talking to Okay. with somebody at the Atomic Energy I said, you know, I need to know. I'm going to decide what I need to know. Just just to back up. So, you go out to Los Alamos, you get briefed, you meet Lawrence Keys, and like literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly JFK, LBJ, and their teams are going to Los Alamos. Wow. So I asked the question, Dad, how often does a president of the

United States go to Los Alamos? The answer is So what was so extraordinary that they all suddenly rush out there and this is what you I think have great insight into it was about the ele the tag along. That's what they wanted to know about. They weren't all fascinated by the test. They were by the tag along itself. So what did you when you came out two weeks before them? What did you find? What did they tell I met Lawrence Geese.

He said, "I have this letter saying that I can brief you." I said, "Thank you because I really," he said, "Well, the test details are controlled by naval It was interesting. and he said they don't share everything with the Navy They are an autonomous entity. They are more secure than any other intelligence agency.

It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s. Yeah. I said, "Just be be aware the mighty CIA is not on their fully approved list to So, I can talk about that on another occasion. But um anyway, so I said, "What what am I here to find He said, "Well, he reached for some

stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down." I'm looking at sitting on his round rock, you know. So, you're looking at like material, anomalous material. But but debris or images? Wow. Oh, that's amazing. At Los,

Depends on the light in the room or the light for the camera. Was it uh was it heavy? were like I mean I picked them up. They didn't I didn't put them down. They went the heaven.

how it was retrieved, would you think that it was at all different than like random rocks or something? I didn't know how it was retrieved. He but he said no this is some of he said I have it on my desk just you know as an examples I mean he didn't say for visitors but I mean whatever reason he had it there did it did it was it emitting alpha beta gamma radiation anything like that

I don't know I don't know if he he must have known it was safe I mean had all this instrumentation around. Anyway, um so I you know I just what have we because it does pertain to designing a missile system? What kinds of things can interfere with it or might emulate?

We just need to know more who else is studying this. Um we need to know about knowledge in other in other quarters. China where Russia we feared Russia science more than China at that time. Um um he explained though that this is not the first case of other

objects or phenomena. There's a history. Now he didn't go into the history with me. He just said do your research. I said, "So, you're telling me anyway, but the Navy says I can't know." Yes. He said, "Yes, but probably you saw the original." My bet is that part of the test, the video will have

been scrubbed, which was, but And he repeated that's Navy intelligence. there or another. They live in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more powerful than we are. But do they still live in their own world? Yes. [laughter] That's what everybody says. There are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harold relayed to Pippa before he passed.

Bluegill shootown was an attempt to down a UFO. Malgrim explicitly told this to Pippa, his daughter, and Jeffrey Kruchh Shank. He also told this to Senate intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed. Uh what uh Mgrren report reported that he'd been told directly by Bissell is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring closely monitoring that test and it tumbled into the ocean and that the Navy picked it up. So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with

nukes and destabilized their flight paths with EMPs. See, EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the magneettosphere of the a UFO, you probably need to use some form of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the magneettosphere of the Earth in order to navigate. Birds even do this. They use aven cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the Earth and navigate

home. This form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a UFO. So when you disrupt the local magnetic field, you could cause a UFO to spin out, lose control, and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely requires mega volt range electricity and extremely strong electric field strength over long periods of time, which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries. I think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source. If the X-ray induced shock wave

from the bluegill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably disrupt the power source of a UFO. when Harold was holding the UFO pieces Lawrence G had given him, they seemed to [music] telepathically communicate with him. He heard words in his head when he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand.

Malgrim forgot the exact words, but he felt like they were important and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subconscious. He also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence G had given him. He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to the pieces. Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed Lawrence Gis's test and realized there was far more to this tagalong UFO phenomenon than Met the Eye, Malgrim had clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy. He needed

to get fully read in. That's when he received a full briefing on otherworldly technologies by Richard Bissell. Who who is Richard Bissell? [laughter] Okay. So, a few months after this series of episodes, missile crisis, Los Alamos, Richard Bissell called me up and said, [clears throat] "I'd like to spend some time talking to

Maybe Friday afternoons after work would be good." I said, "Sure." I knew who he was. I mean he was deputy of CIA and he was in the news a lot because he he had been the one who have strike works develop the U2 testing site and he thought it'd be a

good idea to test the U2 basically right next door. Yeah. So this I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology stuff. I didn't know at that time his ill portion was that he was in charge of the invade Cuba Bay of Pigs operation Anyway, you know, I knew he was somebody of considerable scope of knowledge

and obviously strong enough to run a big part of the empire of CIA. So I sat down brought a bottle of whiskey out and said we don't have to drink all of this. They said, "I talked to everyone around You were one of the best kids, but I was told you were the youngest because

you came in a little bit after the others and also that most of them were four or five years older. Um, but you were the star in terms of agility and and ability to work with the top level people without friction. Um, in other words, you were an obnoxious, you know, smartass. So said you're almost certainly on a curve where you'll continue to be at

that level. So there are things you need to know and then he went into quite a bit but it was not only about what we still were calling UFOs at that but it was about CIA operations worldwide.

to times when the president and CIA were not working in in concert but it happens when you have a big system like that it develops a life of its own. What did he say about UFOs and and other world technology? And then what did he say about CIA's the global nature of their operation? Well, it all went down simply to

they were opposed to anything which threatened their control and these unidentified We didn't have the UAP word yet. They presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control and they interfered perhaps with what CIA was doing with private industry. There was a lot of interaction between

Loheed Martin and CIA they would show up around specific atomic testing or around specific technology development or many types of technology development. I mean, do you So, it's almost like the UFOs are more, it's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development. That's at the heart of it. Yeah. Which is, if you read the

threebody problem by, you know, this amazing, you know, uh, Chinese science fiction trilogy, uh, I saw the movie. Yeah. It seems like something like that is almost the case according to Richard Bissell. Wow. And so what does he say? So he briefs you on quote unquote otherworld That to me belies almost uh human knowledge of these technologies, not just like these things are randomly showing up when we're making advanced

He said this is real. These we don't know these phenomena also. We don't know what the Russians and Chinese and any anyone else knows. That itself is Now at that time, China was not as threatening to us as Russia. We always overrated Russia in my

judgment and we underrated the Chinese obsession to focus in on something very specific which was the technology race. Um so but anyway he just wanted me to know that there were all these conflicting forces of power in play and that they

had influence on leadership in many countries not just Washington and and it tends to run deep into local politics depending on where the interests were. Now, he didn't mention Arkansas, but when I reflect back, I probably was on his mind.

paper uh at Ryan Airport or any other airport with a load of dope, with a load of guns? on all along? That the Bluegill test was actually always intended to be a directed energybased UFO shootown. Well, tellingly, Harold told Pippa on his deathbed and offair that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very

shootowns and tracking. This of course begs the question, was Star Wars always dual use and intended for shooting down and quarantining UAP? And if these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash, it begs the very important question, are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war? Ultimately, one can only speculate. But it is important to note that before he briefed Malgrren, Richard Bissell had to have known about all of this. Remember at the

time he was deputy director of plans for the entire CIA and he would go on to become deputy director for the entire organization its number two. So he was likely well aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell. he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the So he had to have known about the UFO

nuclear connection. Bissell likely also understood the secret UFO related intentions of the bluegill tests all along. Bissell knows about this other layer of reality, a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to be managed by elements of the US government for decades. Do you think Richard Bissell sort of uh

knew that you were you were sort of an heir to him and sort of a more like spiritual sense or something? I think he was very spiritual and he was looking for someone who was somehow connected

other worldly forces. H Have you looked Have you looked for people like that? time. [laughter] He said this didn't start last week.

Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And you know, the Pope Pius the 12th backchanled that. So the Vatican was involved. Yeah. And told the Americans what the Italians had and and we ended up scooping it. So he said this Yeah. He said this did not begin. And and the you have need to know the background. How did it end up that Truman transferred

that object from Italy? The steps getting there was arranged by Alan Dulles. But that went back to what Pipper and he said the steps that Allan Dulles helped with the crash retrieval and and remember Allan Dulles and so John Foster Dallas and Allen Dulles are And John Foster Dallas is running the OSS the precursor to US intelligence out

of Switzerland. And then I asked I said Dad why was he running it out of Switzerland? How the heck does that happen? And [clears throat] he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of US. Let me explain. after all this all these events a few years back when I was still an official um in the office of the trade representative well I was

the um principal I was invited by you know Switzerland doesn't have a president they the leader is revolves around the canton leaders but whoever was the leader That year I visited they said would you like to see the office of Alan Delos when he lived here.

So I thought it' be fun name beautiful apartment overlooking the river we got talking I said how do you explain why he chose to be here? He said oh that simple. He told us when he got permission to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in Switzerland, no American law could reach him as to

something he did that was illegally moral or otherwise in the United States. So he said he was here all the time and it was to allow him a free hand to to do the most terrible things if if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was a creepy guy. Now going back to 1933.

between Angleton's father and the Knights of Malta. Wow. Because the Knights of Malta said there's long historical connection with the Vatican and indeed have this special diplomatic status. You know, you can be you can have an international passport for the I forget how what's the it's a something.

a total media blackout was imposed throughout the Stefani news agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government-ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship, a special investigative body known as Gabonetto or RS33 formed to study the craft with highlevel figures such as Mussolini, Air Marshal Italo Balo, and Nobel Laurate and radio pioneer Maronei believed to have been involved. Testimony suggests

possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents on later family confirmations indicate Maronei genuinely believed the craft could be non-human. In the late 1930s, Pope Pius I 12th became aware of the Magenta retrieval, [music] reportedly fearing that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands once Italy allied with Germany. Through discrete channels, the Pope quietly informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location. This back channel

intelligence set the stage for the Office of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program and the predecessor to the CIA in World War II, to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached to its end. Working under a secret project called McGregor, OSS operatives targeted advanced access technology, including the rumored crashed UFO. By 1945, the Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study.

engineering alien materials at the Pentagon in his book, The Day After Roswell, served as a high-ranking intelligence officer in Italy during the post-war period. In fact, he was the personal liaison to the future pope. He was also a knight of Malta. He was also a main figure in Operation Paperclip and helped create the quote unquote rat lines exfiltrating Nazi scientists and technology. In fact, many Nazi scientists, specifically specializing in exotic propulsion, made their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base after

make a common [music] front against attack by people from other planets." Chief OSS member and another CIA founder, Wild Bill Donovan, who journalist Chris Sharp notes was likely not only involved in the Magenta crash retrieval, but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals, was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic Energy Director turned CIA director John Mccon, later CIA director Bill Casey, Knights of Malta. Remember that FDR was responsible for the communications with the Vatican about the [music] crashed Magenta craft. Well, President

Roosevelt's Vatican envoy, Myron Taylor, also a knight of Malta. Maybe religious studies professor Diana Walsh Basila, who has visited the Vatican archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye about UFOs, isn't so crazy after all. Maybe she's spot on. And look at [music] the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO crash retrievals today. JCO, or the Joint [music] Special Operations Command. According to journalist Seymour Hirsch, one of the modern heads of Joc,

General Stanley Mcristel, and many of the members of JOC themselves are all Knights of Malta. Does the DOE currently work with JOCK? We uh work with all of the security entities around the federal government. Do you guys work with JOC? Yes or no? Uh yes, we do. There are Templars at the Vatican. It's the residue of of the truth or the myth whatever of nights of

temp the Templars. But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well. Well, what I'm saying is yeah, they did because because Angle was there. So, for context for the audience, James Jesus Angleton was sort of one of the original founders of the CIA. Dulles was sort of a mentor to him. He was a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy and he's kind of this eccentric debonire interesting guy who was also really just

good at conniving and lying. And so Engleton's father Hugh was involved with the Knights of Maul. He was a member. He was a member. And so and then so he's Wow. Oh, so he's involved in the Vatican, which makes it more likely that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do with the retrieval of that UFO, the Magenta crash, which was kept at the Vatican. Yeah, I'm speculating now, but no doubt in my mind about myself. You're speculating, but there's so many

connections. There's even a guy named John Warner IV, who is the grandson of Paul Melon and the son of Senator John Warner. and he tells this story where he's three martinis in to you know a dinner or whatever with Paul Melon and Paul Melon recalls the story Paul Melon is one of the founders of the CIA and he's with Allen Dulles doing tech retrieval in specifically he says I'm in and I'm standing on top of a saucer with Allen Dulles and my grandfather said look you know we

we were in a facility a hanger and we saw you know a German flying disc and I said you know oh is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines. [music] And he laughed and he said, "No." Basically implying that it was like this anomalous object. And right there in Czechoslovakia in modern day Poland is this thing called Commto where Hans Conler, the most ruthless Nazi who was doing the most kind of black world technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers and had

there's this rumor of this thing called DLA. And so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also have Dulles and and Paul Melon standing on top of this saucer. And when the magenta object crashed, supposedly there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, I don't really know what to do with this. Is this yours? And then Hillary said, no, it's not ours, but we should work on it together. We should collaborate. So there's there there is there are actually a lot of data points around this. You start to build this this

picture up. Mhm. Well, so said that too. That's amazing. And the Italians even to this day. Um are amongst the most innovative in defense technology in the world. Yeah, that's so interesting. So maybe that there's some inherited technology or something. Let me say tell you one backtory that is not well known in When we look at the world, we say the second most important military force is

the UK and their and especially the RAF, but they have really dwindled in and I didn't know this till recently, but I'm somewhat rather actively connected with the military world. I have a book coming out with essays on 25 years that's coming up soon and anyway no UAPs in book

but but one of the people introducing the book was the chief of the Italian air force and I said that's a little bit odd he said and the editor said Oh, in the in the Europe today, the most important air force besides the US is the Italian air force. I had no idea really. So they may they might be more advanced than meets the eye. They're more advanced than the rest of

them in Europe. Yeah, this was news to me. But you know, I think of Italian I guess the cars as being fast but unreliable and then but wow the Air Force Yeah. Well, well, Northern Italy has world-class engineering. True. German level engineering. And they have it in many fields. Um, and I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War, the Germans were prohibited from going into

aircraft because the Luftwaffa had been such a threat. And as a result, the Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology about not quite 10 years ago. And the Germans are very strong in that. And I started to also realize how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in history is un it's not well as well understood as it could be. And I just wonder was this part of what drove

the decision to create what we now call the axis? um that because the Italians assumed that this super high-tech thing must be and that began their dialogue and as they aligned that became the Axis. And then again back to George C. Marshall and the team that is basically cleaning up after the end of World War II and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced

technologies. They must be brought to the United States and that operation paperclip period. And again, who's already there? It's all these cast of characters and where have they been based? Italy. That's amazing. That's so it's so Again, there's no proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry. But there's so much cooper Richard Bissell to add to the the Dulles Paul Melon story to add to David Grush's recent testimony. So we are building up

this you know important uh corroborative I'm just mentioning in passing you know this walking stick I have it's from a an old shop. It's an old it's the same car but I was told it was Paul Melon's washing stick. No way. That's so interest. What do you How'd you end up with that? Oh they live in the same part of Okay. What? Well, I knew I didn't know Paul Melon,

but I knew all the people around him. his wife. How how Oh, and his his um personal um I would call him ran the fox hunt for him and ran took care of the horses and you know he had raceh horses everything. That guy became a close palibine. So I heard all these stories about Paul Melon. So, I didn't meet Paul Melon, but I know more about his life than you would imagine, including all his

Oh gosh. but I have his walking stick. That's so interesting. That's wild. I kind of I feel like we should put it in the shot or something. It was sent to me as part of my mission, but I still don't know my purpose, but Thanks, Peppa. Um, and so what what do you think the Knights of Malta play some sort of role? Yes. In UFOs, and what do you think their role is?

now you're getting to the heart of the residue of that organization that still What form does it take now? I have no idea. But they still have the sovereign state identity. Do you think it goes back to the original Templars? I don't know. But how did they get the sovereign state? Vatican must have organizes. They seem to have kind of a lot of top

level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta. That's right. So something Yes. We It's a It's a secretive society. I mean there are all these secret societies. Um, so many things over the years have been attributed to the Council on Foreign Relations. I was member of the council for I don't know 50 years. I I dropped out recently because they

wanted me to keep sending them large amounts of money. I thought, yeah, you know, I've done my I paid my dues. But when you get back to the Council of Foreign Relations and you dig deeper, well, wait a minute. It wasn't really them. It was some of them select group um through Brown Brothers Haramman that set up CIA. You know, they're different groups did different things and some of the

great financial figures were involved with some but not others. it's not very different from the WF in in Switzerland. Different group, but there's a Council Foreign Relations Knights of Malta connection. I I would say there's some overlap membership, but no no connection. Anyway, the CM foreign relations has been diluted and changed since the days

of Second World War and the Cold War. It's now um much more diverse and much defensive of who who's ever in power in the White House. I don't know what they're going to do with Trump. Um, but they have been they've been sort of swept along with progressive Democrats. Right. So, this is you just brought this in. This is Paul Melon's walking stick

that you ended up with. I can't verify, but that's what I was These are the rumors. What um does it represent anything? It looks very Well, he had a lot of power. So that was bestowed upon you. Um what else what else did uh did Richard Bissell tell you? Well, I mean I think I've explained in essence there are multiplicity of powers in play at any moment

and around presidents they have certain powers but they are constrained by these other powers and among them the intelligence community is very powerful because it has found ways to fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look at the budget and say that's what it is. It's it operates

legitimate and illegitimate, right? So it's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really And so the Russians do this too. And they even do it in overt ways. They did with the um this group that the leader was assassinated Wagner. Wagner group. Oh Vagner group. Yeah. Posian. Yeah.

I mean they do that's over. They do it not over. The Chinese are everywhere doing all kinds of stuff. Even in Manhattan. So when when you weigh actions, you have to take into account what you see and what you don't see. The unseen enemies, I should have been aware of that when I blurted out some of these comments on and I stumbled into controversy. I have

no intention of Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have Have you gotten any backlash? Because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter or I usually get it. So So Dad drops something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full like full people saying, you know, your dad is breaking the But that seems positive. It's mostly Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She she calls me from some far away place, wakes me up in the morning. You see

different hours and then you just blew up the internet. I actually I said I leave you alone for five minutes. Breaking the internet. I love it. I carefully crafted some backing up language that I was not um involved with UAP research. You said read my words No, if you if you read them carefully, I

was not I was saying it. I was not directed to look at that. It was um but I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it. And I knew that eventually this stuff would come out and say, "Yeah, I knew about that." But I I use the words to make it look like I was backing away speculation. But I didn't do that. The words didn't suggest I was speculating. I think this is an issue sometimes with

uh people who are high up in government who want to disclose certain things but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have or oaths they've sworn or clearances they have where you'll hear David Grush or something spec he'll say this is open source this is a personal story and he'll have to caveat constantly with that and so if you're an average person you just immediately your skeptical trigger goes off but in fact he's trying to do you a service and saying, "Look at this. This is open source. I just don't want to end up, you know, uh uh uh under

the gun here because I don't want to I don't want to, you know, end up in jail." You're giving your enemies The thing to to keep in mind, and as in the research I've done, too, is what you find is a lot of this cast of characters, including James Jesus Angleton, who went on to become the key person at the CIA, they all seem to have been part of General George C. Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War. They're all involved with the Marshall Plan somehow or another, including

Kennedy and Foresttoff for a period are part of that. And so difficult to prove, strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject. Well, Forestall's uh was supposedly on this majestic 12. who knows how much of the Majestic 12 is true, but this sort of, you know, elite uh military and intelligence uh advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower. And then George Marshall also, there's this thing called

was, you know, atomic intelligence. And it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology. And if there was anything, you know, involving UFOs there, that would sort of be bound up in One of my closest friends when I came to Washington was an attorney named Tom And Tom and I played tennis together. But turned out Tom had been general counsel of CIA.

and he'd been at again at with the guys doing the Marshall Plant. I was going to say it turned out he was involved in in the project called Uhhuh. are picking Germans. And the reason why was he he was born in Berlin of a father who was a US diplomat, but he spoke German fluently. it never dawned on me when I when it was

in two ways. In one way we have learned that some types of propulsion for example exist that we did never never envisioned never conceived. Um the second way is that they have revealed

anything we have on earth we don't control it. Now we only recently even where where is it coming from? I mean you know we have this new telescope looking up where are they? But then we have one revelation by the last few days who says

they are not China, they are not US. They are not extraterrestrial, meaning they're either here already under the water or subterranean. And then [clears throat] David Gush, he says talks about is it interdimensional? They're suddenly and one sort of wonders is this semantics? Like if you ask officially are there extraterrestrials, the answer is no because

extraterrestrial means off planet. Yeah, but it doesn't include if it's interdimensional, if it's oceanbased, if it are we actually all talking across Well, it's the reason the all domain anomalous, you know, research office which is headed up by Kirk Patrick who has all these sort of, you know, and we should get into the the atomic ties to the UFO question. He has all, you know, this whole history and, you know, atomic research. She was at Oakidge and he always rests on we have no hard evidence

of extraterrestrial life but of course you know you have these anomalous things you haven't done an proper analysis on them you don't know what they are you haven't classified them and so you just you use that's like this straw manning way of you know explaining the thing away and for an average person who's not really into the topic you go oh this official is saying that there's no extraterrestrial yeah but it's it's always extraterrestrial so so is there was there anything else that Richard Bissell told you I I I hate to, you know, harp on that one interaction, but it just it's so fascinating

Does he say anything else? Well, he he didn't admit to or talk about bad things that had happened. He didn't want to get into a discussion about the Bay of Pigs. um he didn't raise incidents where we have overturned governments. He somehow he avoided that stuff. But um I think most of it was

about if you work at the leadership level whether you're a lead leader or a guide to a leader you've got to keep in play in their minds the conflicting and a lot of these forces are not on any legal boxes of who has authority over what um you can't do a a diagram that is meaningful

for the entire US government because a lot of it is other power networks. Well, this Michael Turner who's been I mean he was a lynch pin for three companies at and had you know he blocked everything. Suddenly he's that's very unusual someone with that much power usually you have to buy them off you give them something else more important you promote them

um yeah someone asked me once what's the most effective way to get rid of a major enemy I said you promote them give them something more visible where the ego can be pacified I I did it more their wounds. You don't want the That's funny. You don't want them Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want them licking their wounds. You'd rather have them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on. I've never been publicly pnacious.

But there were times, well, I think Peppa had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time. And she told me, "Dad, I have breakfast with him and I asked him how is it dad has so much power but he has no enemies. People of power have so many enemies." And he said the only thing he would say is the rumor is none survived.

cultivated that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me. [laughter] very but I think the key here is it's not so much what did Richard Bissell say directly to dad although that has immense value it's important to capture this for posterity but it's also an invitation you are now part of a network of people it will be known that you've been blessed

um it will be known not just in our government it will be known and other governments. It will be known by the Russians and that network operates for the whole of your life. information about how communication between JFK and Kra was established. Now to the average human in the world we in which we live

we say why they speak of the bone. But number one first represented central committee. If you were really going to communicate with the central committee you would use So he would know. So if he if he didn't serve I think he may have served us but we don't know he

didn't disclose but I know I can tell you about that later but I mean he came to know me that but um but the American ambassador was that Walter Staceil or who was it didn't matter the only thing that matter was number on um in communication with Moscow. But but that's was the official

channels. But there seems that there were also unofficial channels. Well, there had to be. And one of them was it seems uh Norman Cousins. Yeah. Who was against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Kushev. I'm trying to think back. I haven't talked about this before. My first encounter with

as I said, he arrived in ' 62, a phenomenon unusual, the member of the central committee. I was attending some months after this in ' 63. Um went to one of these Washington gayas, you know, the White House pressur roast of the president or one of those. We have those events.

And when you're invited, you get a seat with a names card. You don't sit where you want. You sit where your name card is. So I sat next to me and said, "Hi, I'm Hal Mun." He said, "Yes, I know you. I am Ambassador Doin.

That's not accidental. He chose to sit there, I'm sure. So I'll have to be careful. And he just chatted friendly way. your name is well known in Russia long before you in at these heady levels of decision making. I said, "Why is that?" He said,

"You're you are named after your uncle whose name is identical to mine." M he said he was really famous as a chess player especially among all the security people who were nuts about KGB and others about chess who was the chess champion in them. So, and he played many Um, oh, I said, so he said, you as the progeny of that Herald Bren,

which in our way of thinking is good bloodlines. and so we chatted about that and how coming to Washington was surprised for me. He said, "Well, you've landed at the center of everything." I said, "Yeah, I'm surprised." They said, "Yeah." He said, "I gather you were in there with the generals." I said, "How would you know that?" He "Our [laughter]

system is far more thorough. You should be aware of that and you might imagine. I said yeah. He didn't ask me about what took place except to say you emerged as someone who was able talk down the most belligerent American military official of all time

or of our time anyway. And so he said made you of interest. How how did you do that? Um well, it's like a good chess player. How did you win? And um we had these encounters, I don't know, once a year or something unplanned. He was bound me.

Let's have a chat. And um he did ask I have never talked about this. He did ask at one time um why is everyone so excited about these unidentified flying objects? He just innocently wasn't trying to pump intelligence out of me about anything specific. He was very careful.

I said because it's something we don't control. It's very simple. Whatever it we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control. Um he said, "Nations are never in total control. There are always unexpected challenges." I said, "Yeah, but tell that to somebody in Washington. would do. I mean they are

not students of history in Washington. You know the emergence of of new It's not something we easily absorb. It's not our culture. We're either triumphant or not. And winning the second world war made us feel really superior. he said there's something there remember

he said that is um dividing your country but maybe could unifying other two That's the way he said it. And this is about the UFO subject. So extraordinary. That's he probed it. I think he was looking for me to say something, but I was not privy to those letters between

JFK and there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this and use the UFO thing as kind of a unifying, you know, rallying cry or something. But he would p number one reason let's not be misguided by these events that think to think it might be us versus them that this is not Russia or the US. So we we

we need an early warning system. Those things that you see are not ours. All right, that makes sense. how it extended beyond there to the other idea. Maybe we should work together. Let's drop put the swords down and let's come up with a way develop our futures without being mortal

Now that switch, my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind. And so did did I see any? No. No, I didn't. But some people did. The fact that he wanted he expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share our of UFOs

with Russia caused alarm officials in Washington. Now K definitely but that was one of many things that JFK and he were fighting about. So um but it seemed to alone people at CIA or some people CIA is a big organization. There is this letter that was foyed and

used the Freedom of Information Act to to you know to to get out of the government in 2005 and it's of controversial provenence. So, we should caveat that to the audience, but it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John McCone after he had fired Dulles. And he's basically saying, "We need to coordinate. I need all the data on quote unquote unknowns in uh in in sensitive airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as

acts of American aggression." And that he's basically saying, I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in, you know, some uh uh horrible, you know, uh uh bombout scenario due to the UFOs. How do we deconlict? How do we decon? How do we create a regime for deconliction so that we don't inadvertently fire and it's not the Russians or vice versa? And in the 1971 salt treaty, it's written into it. It's that sort of same language is written into it. It's in there. And so so do do we think

that this letter might be real, this 2005 for letter or That's amazing. Do do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death? This is pure speculation until we see. But do I think so? Yes. I think it was probably the number one issue. Why do you think that?

Because from what I have read, not what I know because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFK to talk openly about the UAP phenomenon and the basis for why we stop fighting

with each other and join forces with and make peace and he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both sides. And that was also a threat and challenge part of the community. Yeah. And Dela specifically hated that visav China because it was like if we didn't have nukes they would outman us. Yeah. It was worried about numbers. So you so so you think maybe in some of th that correspondence it was let's work

together on the the non-human intelligence or alien issue. It's it's funny uh Douglas Caddy who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt. Howard Hunt's this you know known CIA longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of you know he's like the the janitor in Watergate or It's incredible. And um and he Douglas Caddyy says, you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving these kind of deflection answers and then finally he says it was about the alien presence.

Yeah, I think it was that's fascinating. I think JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president. What gives you conviction in that? he was in naval intelligence for a while. He learned most of it from Foresttol. He was in in the intelligence and and Forestall was secretary of the Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense. Yeah. And Foresttol

fully briefed him and talked about it and he talked about you'll have to do the history but he he was fully briefed by Forestall. How do we know Forest Stalt knew about UFOs? Because there tons of rumors. He, you know, managed Admiral Bird who engaged in Operation High Jump, you know, bringing probably like 70 or so ships, uh, and 33, I think, you know, airplanes and almost 5,000 men down the coast of of Argentina and towards Antarctica. And they

reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers. But other than that, do we have any real, you know, evidence that Forestall knew about UFOs? You have to do more research. I my research, which tends to be scattered and until recently, I haven't tried to organize it, but I found several to Portol for him going to Paris with questions

and getting answers. Interesting. Well, you know, JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel, who was this famous UFO debunker, but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the deepest, you know, clearances across the board, CIA, NSA, and Navy. And so maybe there's some sort of connection there. Um, but did did did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs No. No. My interaction with JFK and Bobby was

very limited. But I was somehow part of the clan because Sriber the brother-in-law was the go. He talked to me all the massage driver proposed me for I don't know several different jobs and I declined each one. but I was unaccepted in a circle of

person but Bobby and Teddy they were consumed with events that seem to be coming at them faster and faster. If I look back at top management, I would have to say they were operating without an adequate buffer system. So my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way of neither one of them. When you're a senator, you

have a small staff, but you know, you don't you're operating on your own. You don't know how to run apparatus. someone like LBJ came in, he he ran the whole damn Senate. Um, you know, some multitude of people at lower levels, um JFK came in with small limited naval experience, but seemed to be busy with Forestall.

And um do you think Forest Doll's death had anything to do with UFOs? So Forest Stall was sort of pushed out of uh his position at Secretary of Defense. Yeah. And he was he was sort of betting on George Dwey against Truman and then he ends up in this Navy hospital Bethesda Maryland and he sort of you know gets killed by gravity quote unquote. It's he's like midw writing some Sophocles poem. I think his brother his brother Harry Forestall had met with him the day before said he was totally of same sound

through a window didn't seem to be openable. That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah. And it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the I The whole thing made no sense. So, do you think that had anything to do with an interest in the UFO subject? But I I'm not going to speculate. Yeah. And so, but so after JFK and all these guys, George McByundee, all all of his top aids are they go to Los Alamos, they're presumably given the same sort

of briefing that you got. Yeah. Do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all? And what makes you think that? I think JFK somehow saw this moment to make world peace. We weren't worried about China at that But why don't we and the Soviets just stop fighting, join forces,

explain what we know together, and deal with this force that we don't understand. Yeah. And there and somehow in that exchange during the crisis itself, there were communications with we don't know every word. Maybe some of it is recorded. Some of it may have been through the brain who may have used his lines to I mean he

had his method of communication that was couldn't impregnate problem. I seem to establish a working discussion between two two guys and that's that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Uh actually Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose. And Charlie is saying you know she's talking about you know talk talk to me

about your correspondence with Reagan. And Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects and he says, "Well, one time we're sitting there, you know, Reagan turns to him and he whispers. He says, "If the United States were attacked by someone from outer would you help us?" I said, "No doubt about it." He said, "We too.

So that's interesting. Right now in modern times, we are shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon, there were three other unidentified objects that the military said they shot down. And so here's just a very profound question. If this higher intelligence or even just intelligence, let alone higher

is shooting at it the right way to open the conversation. Number one. Number two, generally speaking, you're not supposed to shoot at stuff if you don't know what it is. And and so are we locked into a kind of 1950s thinking about this thing because it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to national security that no one can even really discuss this. And are we missing

show themselves to us until [laughter] then. Again, regardless of whether it is real since we can't identify it, what I find again interesting to observe is the level of fear that exists and particularly in that official circles in amongst the militaries because of the lack of control that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat. And you will often hear the discussion of there's this thing in our

airspace And I'm like, what if we're in its airspace? Yeah. Right. That's just a a creative way of What's the definition of airspace in a world where we have a James Webb telescope that is literally millions of miles away? We're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we can't even identify. So it's just again given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we humanity are capable of. We are

sending drones millions of miles away. Why are we surprised if we have something here as well? And so it's the way you begin the thought process on this. I fear we're stuck in this mental that made sense in 1950, but it doesn't make sense in 2025. It it really doesn't doesn't even make sense from a national security standpoint, which especially not from national shouldn't be the primary lens through

which we see this, but it is an important lens and it doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. If you have this overcompartmentalization and cold war secrecy where you have these aerospace prime contractors that were sent to do this so you couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act or you wouldn't have civilian oversight or whatever plausible deniability plausible deniability and then you have constant compartmentalization the left hand side talking to the right you're you're not getting the proper coordination on on the most advanced and exciting and interesting R&D on the

I would go a bit further and again Dad and I have talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem and that is China, Russia, India, they never had what we would call a cartisian revolution. M meaning in the west, the United States and Europe after Renee Deart, the philosopher basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious, the

religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this day to have this split. And so therefore, you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable, it's not subject to scientific analyses because that's all about repeatability, But the rest of the world didn't have this split and they still think and you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings and that is not

contradictory in China, in Russia, in India, in across Africa. So the question today is, is China maybe in collaboration with Russia making more progress because they don't have this mental hang-up? If you wanted to study certain kinds of things related to what's called ESP in the United States, you had to hide it very carefully because you were crazy and then government didn't want you people to think they're supporting crazy stuff. But if you wanted to do the work in Russia, go right ahead. Fine. Here's

your money. because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not That's an interesting question that we can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition and if China can is it possible that they will announce this first and that's part of why I think a lot of this is progressing there's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure and that China says we have the fastest supercomputers

and quantum computers we have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys in this round which looks like it's a real and we have found something and if that is announced we in the west will go well prove it but the whole rest of the world in that moment the danger is all the agilation admiration of Los Alamos of NASA

all eyes turn to Beijing. And then we can say, "Oh, well, but this is not scientific and you can't prove it." But the whole rest of the world is still in awe and wonder. And that is another reason why is not in our control here in the United States. There's a real possibility that our competitors are racing ahead because they haven't got these mental constraints. I think that's very well said. Yeah. And I and I hope uh policy makers and

whoever's listening to this listens to that and and and we make real changes series with you. Oh god. [laughter] The ones that had me going, "Dad, what the heck?" I called Curtis Lame and I said, "General, uh, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all this secret stuff.

Can I go in there?" I've never heard him get mad. But he got mad or in hell at me, cussed me out, said, "Don't ever ask me that question." You said on X that you thought Curtis Lame had some knowledge of the UAP Why do you think that? I never heard him say something about that, but the research that he was into included the, you know, nuclear powered

airplane for the better Project Orion, the better bombers. But he was I have to think about it. I have a reason somewhere in the back of my head. It may we're going to have a break soon. I'll have to think. Yeah. He started the Rand Corporation and was was interested in towns and Brown's work as well. Right. Right. and Rand [clears throat] did write on this subject at the beginning. They did. And um you know who ended up running Rand was the president of Rand for over two or three decades. was

Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously, you know, the the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works, right? Who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution. Small group of people that are all Yes, absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nola Tesla and Thomas Townsen Brown. Yeah, but I said to you informally, I did not get that from any

US source. What source did you get it from? Foreign intelligence. Do you think it is a good source? Do you think it's real? No reason. Why would somebody tell me Do you know the nature of that Yeah. The um Yeah, because nobody had associated them. Now, as I say, I have a network worldwide. It's not a network of secrets. It's a network of trusted people. I mean,

during a lot of these recent years, I had friends the chief the national security chief for the Japanese prime minister was some my buddy. [laughter] Uh actually, Dad, we we should say that after you served Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, you were also an adviser to many heads of government for many European countries. You advised every single Japanese prime minister since Takadaka in 1971. So, I

mean, the breadth of the network that he has is it's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it. Yeah. Well, when Nixon went down, Jerry entered the White House. The first full day I got summoned. He was there with Bill Seedman. Bill was, you know, in later years, the head of resolution trust and the FDIC and all that. Bill Seedman was brilliant.

they said, "How we we've got something you want to do." I said, "You know, I'm probably going to leave the government soon." Well, don't don't hurry. We have a lot of things we have want you to do. But first of all, we want you to arrange with the NSA a new intelligence system what is reported of interest to Jerry

Um is what he wants and not what the CIA thinks he ought to want. So I did that. The next morning at 6:00 a.m. I'm living in Georgetown at the time somebody knocking on my door. I'm sent by the director say we give you a morning brief and then every day I had you know I prefer to get up just a hair later. Um,

but anyway, and I said, well, J for doesn't need to know about who the new mistress for the French prime minister. It's not really up his alley. What we do need to know is important things like Russian bookings from ships that might contain might have capacity to move a lot of hours range because we're worried about inflation.

Um so I went through a list of such Oh this is wonderful. A few weeks after that, the head of NSA, you know, some general, I don't remember his name now, told me, "Can you have lunch over here?" And um he said, "You're the best client NSA has ever had. You're telling us what you need." We have huge resources, but we never know what the client wants. Ah,

so we feed them all kinds of stuff and we give it to CIA and then they decide what might be of interest to him and they emphasize the love life of most important people. That sounds like a CIA thing to do or just just go for the comprom or You know, keeps their attention. But I'm told that your your reconfiguration of the intelligence that went that goes into the president's daily briefing remains.

And that the NSA continues to have that input which they did not have before that time. I can't even proven that myself, but that's my what I'm led to believe after I after I left government. Um, well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on the the Towns and Brown Tesla collaboration. So, do you do you know anything about the nature of that

Wow. And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well because they were both working with high voltage electricity. Yeah. And I I think I I see I would I really would like to read Saska's work books, but they're all in the hands of you can't have access, you know, who was tasked with retrieving Tesla's files, John Trump, who was an MIT professor, the world's or the country's leading radar expert at the

time, and Donald Trump's uncle. Yeah. But he passed them over, didn't he? Enable intelligence. Isn't that right? I don't know. That's interesting. And that goes towards your theories around this stuff. And I'm pretty sure Towns and Browns stuff was classified by the Navy. yeah, it had to be because he's working on submarines. He was. Yeah. And he was part of the Navy up until 1942 when Skunk Works started and then he joined Martin Vega Corporation, but maybe he was still working for the Navy cuz he he showed up

two weeks after leaving the Navy and he sort of left. you know, they said that they dismissed him, but like he had an amazing record. And there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert. So, there's something around that story that's very interesting. It is fascinating, too, that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK files, but still no talk of the Tesla Yeah. Nobody talks about And so, what's in there that's of such great importance? Well, Tesla's another guy. He said he

spoke he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs and people just I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever. They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever but he would he said that in call you know so and then and then towns and brown would constantly talk about uh you know space brothers and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what he called a shortwave radio. He claimed that that was how he communicated with them. Well, it's quite possible that there was

communication improvised different ways of is there a way to communicate? a short wave radio would be one not so hard to do. Harder is to get in somebody's head telepathically, thinking that way. Yeah. So, and yet the US government spend a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years. Yeah. Well, to the extent that they learned anything between that and LSD,

we'll never know. But they they have some knowledge. Yeah. Because there this is an interesting kind of question because Stargate this psychic spy program started by Hal Putoff and Russell Tar originally most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services of the CIA and it was people like Sydney Gotautle and a lot of his who were working on this stuff and then posturch commission that kind of changed but yeah how how far do you think we we

went when it came to kind of mind control and you know It's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view, draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of things like that. Um, even Jimmy Carter is on record saying, "The craziest thing of my presidency from 1976 to 1980 was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding a downed TU22 Russian cargo plane." And she was given all of Africa as a target and she circled three square

miles in Zire and they found the plane. And the next time one of our space satellites went over that area, we located the plane where she said it was. So that's clear. But do you think we've gone farther in their sort of mind control techniques that we have? Well, very likely. But we don't know, do Yeah. Um personally when I think about always being at some critical point all these interconnectivities for man I keep

looking from where's the direction coming from I mean I don't feel any direct my mother was a powerful personality brain. I mean, she could read my mind. She said, "Why did you do that?" And I I don't remember doing that.

Yes, you do. Let me see. It was 3rd of January, 1942 or something, you know. And I How she do that? So, she could do it, but I couldn't do that with her. But on the other hand, I sometimes feel that there's this hand over me that's lean a little left or lean a little right. Um that's the closest I have to it. And now you feel maybe somewhat guided

to look into a lot of this, you know, towns and brown and UFOs. I feel guided and why did I hear about that? Because I I showed a deep interest. I I sent a tweet saying why is it I can't see Tesla's work. Mhm. Why what's so important is it make now to be honest as semi scientist let's call that and I respect

the work of Albert Einstein but his his work are conceptual and theoretic strong on math was very much hands-on but he's learned about electricity, its application that far transcends powering lights in your room.

Um, which led him into physical movement, whatever term you want to use. But all that's buried. But he was way way out there. I mean, in my mind, he was equal to or even stronger than I agree with that. I mean, well, Einstein was never an experimentalist. Tesla was doing real

He was, if I say, he was cerebral, you know, it was all mental conceptual. To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on our physical progress in reality. And actually, I I agree with that. He he made physics go that way. Whereas Tesla was trying to pull physics that way. Yes. And the experimentalists make the most progress and often they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper frameworks or really understand what they're doing.

Yeah. But they're I mean I think in the case of Tesla Towns Brown and a bunch of other cases they're sort of uh uh really at the b operating at the boundaries of human knowledge and often it's with high energy physics or you know particle accelerators things like that where we're doing things in the physical world that are uh kind of breaking breaking prior limits and sometimes it's in micros microscopy and just getting you know to to to lower levels of granularity but I think that begets so much more progress than guys, you know,

with chalkboards just like writing So, this comes up against another issue and and you and I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this, which is did we create a kind of invisible glass or perspects wall. And many technologies, particularly in the nuclear space, were placed on the other side. And so you could only study them or get involved with them if you had a classified status and you joined a

government lab or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were going to be arrested. And people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things. Well, that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch And now because of incredible in computational power in the kind of

devices that gather data basically you can't lock it away the way you used to. People are able to uncover it. And maybe that is part of also what is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it. Now you can classify the Tesla papers, but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out. And today, you know, there's been talk of, for example,

Andreston and Horowits, who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today, who have recently been discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager coming up with an artificial intelligence that would have wide ranging consequences. So, they started to think we could lock that down. You know, one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White House on AI policy was, you know, look, there are going to be there are going to be issues that come from AI, but let's they should be regulated. The regulation should happen at the application level, not at the technology level.

And he argued with me when I said that. Well, yes. So, so, so Ben basically said, look, it doesn't make sense because to regulate AI at the technology level, you're regulating math. And of course, we're not going to do that. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll recall that what they said was, no, actually, we can classify math. We can classify math. And literally, this was this is verb this is verbatim. This is this is we we did we we classified whole entire areas of physics u in the nuclear era and and made made them state secrets like of the of the like theoretical physics science of physics

and they're like wait what like what yeah like physics supposed to be open source and so you start to wonder is Eric Weinstein right that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall and now the weight of new innovations is crushing that All well that brings uh you know another explain that tweet series. So we have uh Harold you you wrote questions appearing regarding successor to AEC. AEC is the atomic energy commission. Department of

energy now oversees all national labs including nuke research and security. National labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats such as biotech all subject to do department of energy R&D classifications. So are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring uh in the labs or hallways of MIT uh uh Harvard Stanford but in fact at these DOE research facilities?

I guess that's just a mic drought Well, let me give you an example. I became really close friends with Howard, Senator Howard Baker. I mean, man, he would have made a great president. Anyway, I worked with him, talked to him a lot. We became friends. He had me and my wife of that time down at his country

house several times. And um he said one day I went to go up to Oak Ridge and spend some time with them and I said, "Oh, I didn't know you were attached with them. I thought you were attached with tell Tennessee Valley." He said, "Yeah, but you know, I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby. You can imagine that we are intimately interconnected.

days talking to them about the technologies they're working on that might be made commercialized in some way or other because they don't have that in their work agenda. They just develop and develop." But he said, "I just have a feeling that it's none of that should be made public." So I did. And they had really interesting stuff going on. Areas that you you'd never think of. The most impressive one was

when they said, somebody said, "We know more about filters than anybody in the I said, "Pilters?" I said like filters for the war supplies and filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements of phys you know our and we don't have a purpose for all this

but they're very important in developing refining nuclear weapons. That's why we do it. I said it's a great value in biotech and in management of the water supply is only one of many things but it should be well we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing and it's too much it's too much work to

say let's be regulated so we just we we don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington So, we just do what we're doing. It stuck in my mind. And um why it stuck when AT&T was on the eve of being broken up. AT&T hired me as the final witness before Judge Har

the United States is not ready for a total breakup because number one Bell Labs is where all our really advanced science is. They said how do you know that? Because I went to Bell Labs. I spent a week there. I'm telling you that's where all the brain power is. And I said the second reason is our industry we don't we don't have Panasonic and all these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices.

was working in the army on what he claims to be the foreign material exploitation desk. He says that as part of that role, basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry and mainly it was given to Bell Labs. He says that Kevlar, lasers, and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology. Could be. So you'd say possible, but not you don't

have any evidence for that. No, but it could be. Okay. And let me interject. Something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of PIPA look for the technologies where there's no onramp. I go, what do you mean onramp? I mean, you can't find the research history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones to pay attention to. They're not saying it's definitely from this particular source.

They come out of nowhere. the ones that come out of nowhere, those have interesting stories. So fascinating. And Harold, do you believe because you're interested in Towns and Brown to begin with, presumably this source gave you this information on Towns and Brown collaborating with Tesla, which if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be known more broadly. Um, do you think that Towns and Brown discovered anti-gravity? I don't know, but

just posted on the internet the workbooks Thompson from and I downloaded the whole thing. It turns out to be 500 pages. I got my telephone. He's very excited about it. That's amazing. I'm going to go through that. Um somewhere in there I will find So I can't answer your question right

But um of the movement of electrons repositioning of just about every What is what exactly does that mean? What's the term trans Interesting. Of elements. Yeah. So that's so interesting because

when I go deep enough on the Towns and Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say that it gets into that the transmutation of elements thing and that that's actually why this stuff was shut down because there are more dangerous uh implications around that than the anti-gravity stuff. Well, look at today. Again, I'm a bit involved in the world of artificial intelligence. We already are able to create what are called programmable

where you can specify the behavior of the material and use materials as a data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that that you know because of Google's new um sycamore uh supercomputer and their new willow chip they're already discovering

basically the recipes for creating new materials atom by atom by atom which is a revolution in human history because in the past you had to start with you know a tree to make a table out of wood or a boat Right? But today you can start with what is the requirement? What are the characteristics that I need and then build that material atom by atom by atom. So suddenly I mean we have I think they've said 380,000 new materials and

two million new crystals that no one's ever worked with before. And this will only continue now. So this these ideas that you can have materials that do strange things is no longer insane like we're building them. What this allows you to do is to devise it in here and make it over there So you can make it anywhere once you have the concept. It's a cookbook. It's a cookbook. Yeah.

administration. You're this young whiz kid and you see this kind of rupture in the administration where uh JFK says he's going to scout the CIA to the winds. Dulles gets fired. He's kind of licking his wounds at back at the Brown Brothers Heramman, which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with, and he is plotting possible revenge against JFK, So, yeah. What do you What do you think happens from there? Do you think Dulles had anything to do with JFK's

say they are going to release all those papers now. That's right. So, we'll see. But what does all those papers mean? I mean like one version or all the versions? What do you have you ever met a guy named Danny Shehan by any chance? Um Pippen knows him. So do what do you think of Cuz you actually you tweeted this was the first time I I was so like I was like wow I'm on Herald's radar. This is amazing. He tweeted, you know, Jesse from American

Alchemy just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Shehan. And so I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Shehan narrative of what happened. better now. I'm about to know him, it Nice. Do what do do you think so his narrative is that Nixon who is head of

the 5412 committee under Eisenhower along with being his VP he was working with Howard Hughes to create this quote unquote s force which was this kind of elite uh kind of sleeper cell unit and they were going to take out uh Shavara and Castro and that ends up not happening. the Bay of Pigs occurs and you know Eisenhower leaves and and and JFK comes in and they sort of you know move into the roll get rolled into these

other special ops programs. Mongoose and Foxtrot. And then once JFK fires Dulles, Dulles is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Haramman and he recommissions this S force which is full of these Cuban exiles who've been militarized originally to take out Shavar and Castro but in fact this time around to take out JFK. Do you think that there's any credence to this story? There are quite a few stories. When I was six years old, my father moved us to

then to a community a little further along Narid Bay. And um and suddenly I found myself in a community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian mafia. M in fact most of Rhode Island was and the dominant mafia figure for Boston

the overseer was Providence and I grew up in this environment where it's cool if one kid one male got to be a bully out of nowhere around near closing time for school. Couple of guys would be guys would come in, grab him, take him out, beat the [ __ ] out of him. [laughter]

And then they told us next day, he won't bully you anymore. And so I later on began to ask the police, "How does it work here?" I said no disorganiz no disorganized plan, no wife beating, no disorganized crime. Organized crime definitely is protection

and all those stories about mafia movies. I mean, I grew up and all that. Yeah, this is the way it works. Um, and I met a lot of these people. Not my culture. I wasn't even Catholic, the Roman Catholic, but I learned a lot about it. Now, let me tell you, it's very interesting to me. The first time I met the prime minister of Italy in 1973

sent over by Nixon to do a kind of tour of the world. I sat down. Uh, he said, "Mr. the mountain. I've been looking forward to meeting you. Pete, you won't understand this. Let me explain. Hell here knows all about the Sicilian way. He grew up in it. He understands it. So, let me explain before you start some

lecture on confusion of state and crime and Italy. We had all these red brigades, all kinds of stuff. The only way the church and the state could we had to use the mafia because they could do things we couldn't Okay? So yes, there was a triumpvirate

that ran Italy for a long time and it was an alliance of the pope, the Vatican, the elected government and the cityian market. We'll let the audience interpret that analogy as an answer to the JFK When I met Chris Hudter had been governor of Massachusetts before he he'd been in Congress and Governor M before he became secretary of

So I asked him one day I said how did you ever do that? I said you were straight through why did you ever take that job as governor of Massachusetts? He said what do you mean? I said, "You can't run the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run Boston without the market." He said, "Oh, you asked, but you asked the same question my wife asked me. Why are you press are you doing this

stupid thing? Why do you want to take it on?" He said, "I puzzled. I thought I thought and I have a I'm going to establish a principle and it worked for me." I said what was the principle? I announced that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside the government without members of the press president. And he said no one from the mafia could come to talk to me without me inviting

the president. So they had to use and I could always wave them off saying I don't I'm not going to even say is that a threat I'm going to ignore you. He said I just insulated myself totally and he was independently wealthy as So he couldn't be bought. He said they can't touch me. I'm I'm really wealthy. Yeah. So, I felt like as you you want to spare me a little money,

but I think it's so interesting. How did the prime minister of Italy know? And the answer must be that because you grew up in that community. They knew they knew you. They knew your They never told anybody about it. He knew all about it. You know, so that's a different network. Yeah. And that same day he said, "I want you to go across the to the Vatican and meet um Archbishop Minkus,

the head of the Vatican bank." Wow. So Pete, would you two please go over there? Arrange the cars outside. They'll drive you over. You won't get stopped. You're coming for me. see the archbishop. We go over there. Mink is former archbishop of Chicago. Big guy, tall in his black robe, cowboy boots,

leaning back, smoking a big fat Cuban cigar. He started off the same way. Pete, I read all about you. Glad to meet you. And Mr. Mr. How I think he said uh um he understands everything but so bear with me I will explain to you how will explain more if you have questions later and I and I looked up and he said we know about you from your boyhood with a

lot of our associates in the mafia. So then he proceeded to talk about the trip partite way of defending themselves against I remember coming out there said how the how does he know all that? I said search me I don't know but there was movement between Sicily and people living in

near where I was. And I met a lot of these people. They never said, "Boy, when you grow up, you can be one of us." I wasn't one of them. I wasn't Catholic. I wasn't. So, anyway, but it was Well, it sounds like the Italian government and the Vatican were tied into they had mob ties in the US. And then and that that connectivity allowed them to understand who you were

to begin with. No question. That's amazing. [music] to politics that people are unaware of that, you know, I mean, even outside of the talks of like a quote unquote deep state or or or, you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government? Like, is there something even deeper at at play that's sort of transnational? the answer is yes. I'm sitting here in this facility.

People don't realize If I push a button, my call right now this minute. You could call Putin right now this You have you have a direct line to him right now? Yes. Because, you know, I told this story of writing a long essay about him

and then writing a second version of Yep. And they were trying to establish a back channel and Obama shut down the back channel that channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology. And with tensions between the US, Russia, and China running high, Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict

George and a couple of other people in as an aid. We were invited to watch the ballet and we came and we were going to be seated in the Zar's box and um Kissinger as usual marched ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the Zar and one of the KB people said,

"Henry, not tonight. Not tonight. That seat is for Dr. Mal. And he said, "But it must be some misunderstanding." He said, "No, no. We know him. He is the shadow of his uncle. You are not one of the world's great chess players. You may think you are." And he may not be yet, but he comes from that

bloodline. And in honor of him, he will sit in that chair tonight. Now, it was intended humiliation of Kissinger. Yeah, Kissinger must have not been very I think he melted down. I was already at war with Ker on other issues. He really got pissed off. Um trying not to show it, but it was out of Um preposterous, you know. Anyway, yeah, he didn't forget it. I didn't forget it, but I never rubbed it in. Um,

as the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together and Yelson the the first president. Uh, at that time, 1992, I was invited to a meeting in St. Petersburg, and by the mayor of St. Petersburg

and at that time the deputy mayor was Vladimir Putin and a number of Americans from business and diplomats and and and top Soviet officials, outgoing incoming Russian officials heavily loaded with what they call the the security people

who were looking for new careers and um so gathering I don't know 75 maybe up to 100 people in the hall as the meeting open before you know bring up drinks and before you sit down all that and somebody comes to grab me and I J Primacov Primacov who was he? He was officially

national academic council or something. It was an official body supervising research in all fields and he was in charge of Asia from China to the Middle East but he had known KJ connections. And in fact, many people thought he was a key official. Anyway, he I had met him in earlier years and he grabbed me by the elbow and

marched me over somebody you need to and he introduced me to Putin. He said, "This man is rising. He will soon be very important to Russia. You should know him. Now I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting. Dream looked for me, found me in the crowd, brought brought me over. It was intentional.

Now Putin was staying there talking to Kissinger. He did know Kissinger and um and Premier said, "Excuse me, Henry, but Vladimir needs to know someone else." Looked at me said, "How the hell did you get into that?" Kissinger believed he was the only channel and it was through Primacov.

I had a channel directly with the Russians at his choice. And um but he introduced me to Primacov. When I went to Moscow, Primov wanted to get to know me. I was I was treated not as partisan of anything but as someone who could be trusted to carry carry an idea, explore it and get an answer back

or something different. I was very mindful of not getting crosswise with our intelligence system. Kissinger thought he was the number one communication channel between Russia and America in the back channel. There's a history of why he and I had conflict a very elaborate history. Um because of my assignments in his Fred

election. It was it all really related to the that had a restriction on opening trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of immigrants of Jews from Russia to either to the US or to And for a while I worked with the Senate

and Senator Abe Riboff um was the the senior Jewish political leader in the American system and as a told me Jake Davage is my partner he's number the chief executive of SGS in New York is in treasurer. It's it's a it's a

Um we give guidance to APAC and other bodies. But this we represent the Jewish community and I I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants. I said, "Abe, I'm not He said, "I know that. I've been looking for someone like you for a long time. It had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quarrels

in the middle. I wanted someone with clean hands. You're the first person I met who's as smart as us Jews. Oh gosh. So I said, "Well, I think I should be a laugh about that." And I did act as the intermediary. In fact, I was sent to Jerusalem and got briefed by Bosad

by Beth Shinb and fully made up several days of full, you know, explanation of what goes on between Israel and the US in the dark world of startled the CIA. Who the hell was I? But, you know, I was operating at the request of the senior political figure in the Jewish community. So, nobody's going to mess with me. Anyway, but the Russians were impressed

by being being kicked out to do this out of all the different people I could. So, all of this was in play in the So somehow the old subject guard working through Yelson said Putin has to be Harold. We don't understand Harold, but he's always pops up in the important places. Yeah. You're like Zelig or something.

And and then you actually dine with him You converse with him. Talk about what you learned from that relationship. You can find I I wrote at the time of the invasion of Ukraine. Um I wrote my impressions of Vladimir

I used to look up um they in unheard I wrote two essays about Putin. You should feature them on just a little link to them because they're very important. There's so much I want. It's as I said, I didn't meet Putin by accident. They arranged for me to meet They did not ask me to write, but I did. I wrote what I thought he was up to, what he was reasoning was. I didn't

criticize him, praise him. All I said was this is his state of mind. Um, he liked the two essays that I How do I know? Cuz he read them. I'm not going to push a button

and call the prime minister of Japan. in Tokyo.

So happy to talk with you. Is there something you believe our president should do? speech in English [clears throat] and he's made leaps and bounds.

I would like you to tell him from me to fly to New York. Give a address to the general assembly. and asked for seven or eight minutes

because [snorts] instead of being some young staff members in Congress. They all see his face

and they'll hear his words. And sure enough, suddenly he was everybody's friend. When I went to DoD to Lyndon Johnson, I arrived in October 64. I get called over by general counel. LBJ wants you to go on a very secret

to Tokyo I had no but it's already arranged. You will meet the Japanese prime minister. He will be accompanied by some Japanese name whose English is perfect. He's he's an official in the cabinet. Mawa recently was prime minister anyway. So I said okay what do I do? So you

we've arranged to take it. You do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing. You just take some days off. Chris Herder knows. He approved it. He said you're just the right person. Who who knows? Chris Herder because okay I was in his aid but no one else knows don't tell don't tell anyone in your agency don't tell don't visit the American embassy [laughter] they don't know

don't tell the state department and exit will be handled swiftly you talk deliver this message and then get an answer. Write it down personally. When you get back, if you want to type it up, it's helpful. But don't address it to the president. Don't say on the envelope, eyes only.

It'll be dead because then 30 people want to see it. [laughter] So, and I said, "How do I get it? his name, his personal secretary. She will expect it. She will tell them to give her the envelope if it comes. You deliver it yourself. They let you in the door. You hand over the envelope. That's it. That's it. No return address. Don't have your name on it, date, anything. Okay.

the origin of this was the minute he became president. Are you going to keep all the commitments of John Kennedy? He said, "What can I do?" They put pressure on this. I said, "Of course I will." But he said some of those commitments involved something I don't agree with was cracking down on imports of foreign nations of textiles.

We it's been a delicate subject between Eisenhower administration. We already have this elaborate system for import controls. But I I think this is all you know just to favor a certain group of So I want to guide the dialogue with Japan. So I want to say I'm not going to argue with you about this. We are not going to have legislation, but I really

would like your cooperation to ask the industry to slow the pace of for at least a year or two so that I don't have to address this. Well, we had some other issues with Japan at the time. So I met Sato and um so he was quite happy and said yes of came back passed it on. No one never knows I made that trip.

And this is the beginning of what we now know as voluntary export restraints. And it was a means of keeping the peace between the US and Japan on this super politically sensitive issue for LBJ. And the point is that this is often how presidents do things. They don't always system. They have unofficial fact channels. At the time I I asked the

general counsel why can't you use secure lines of communication? He said, "Yeah, well sign has their but a lot of people listen to it, right?" [laughter] Said core doesn't deny CIA access. And then since signal is part of the most of the military knows whatever goes. So you can't use that.

Yeah. Yeah. Not to mention the Russians and everybody and anybody else. Yeah. Well, that's we got to that. We have all these other You said you say something. It's just like if you ever send a message to the president saying eyes only the president, it's an automatic imitation. Everybody knows everybody will before the president sees it, they'll have to see it and write a preparatory comment. I I'll give you an example.

I was given when Nixon came in, there was a special commission on the bunch of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson Nixon, you know, Nixon was coming in was felt he should see it and there was a bunch of papers with letter from George B to the president pleading with let's

downsize this whole Vietnam thing before it blows up in your face with cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk. Here was George added again trying to get in the way of what we must do. I mean Dean Rusk totally dismissive of everything. Now, interesting. I was told later

that he really valued George Ball. He read every memo of George Ball. He thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system. George B was always opposed to heightening the war. I mean, I knew the daughter because I dated a girl who was best friends with Linder Bird. So, I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards. So, I I learned lots of stuff. My own

intelligent system. [laughter] I'm telling you. I have to say over over a lifetime more more not beneficial. [laughter]

but that there was no secure way unless you said and and there you can't do it in a way that's visible. Well, I love your your in my research your name always pops up next to Malgrim, Inc. which I always found like uh hilariously non-escript and non-threatening and sort of, you know, just extremely generic.

Yeah. Well, I never advertised anything having these interactions with people kind of on the inside. Mhm. I mean, now we're getting into trippier territory and who knows if this is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental network or a network of serendipity or something where you you look at your interactions with Carl Compton as young as as as you were and

then Richard Bissell saying it's almost like I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I find and particularly on nuclear and I mean how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand how what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used which I think is is a story you should tell a little bit about because it all goes back to the 13-year-old requesting these documents and somehow

ends up now I've been told but dad won't confirm that he worked on preventing a nuclear crisis on more than one occasion. But you only tell me about one and and people in the intelligence world are like, "Oh, your dad is good." [laughter] Like, what? What's going on? So, I I won't make you go there, but you have met with the leader of Russia on nuclear matters after all of this that

we now know. Wow. This I think is related to this subject and it's important to discuss and today do we have a system for deconlicting the US and Russia if these things show up and what is happening practically as we speak. We have unidentified objects flying all over the United States. Yes. Not just in New Jersey. No, over nuclear facilities, over weapons arsenals. But it's happening globally. And the speculation on the people

deepest on the subject, people like Robert Hastings who wrote an amazing book called UFOs and nukes and all of his whistleblowers, almost 170 who work, they have Q clearances at these atomic sites, their intuition, you could just you could say a whole host of things as far as why these UFOs show up. You could say they're offensive, which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much that's offensive. They've done really nothing. We shoot at them, but they don't shoot at us. They don't shoot at us. So, so all of their first intuition as to why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive

sites is because they're trying to show us that our ways are are are, you know, too brutal and we're going to blow ourselves up and to to kind of make us think about higher things. And so, I don't know if you guys think that, but No, I think that I think that's what it's all about. Plus, if we get too serious with nuclear explosions, we can do lasting damage to the to the shell of the earth.

We're plumbing deeper and deeper in to the center. I mean, we don't know what happens if you if you start well, there's there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to Awesome. because you have you know this kind of intersection between the magneettosphere of the earth which actually dictates biological morphology on a pretty fundamental way and UV radiation which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection differential selection and you

are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill and the really interesting crazy part is you have you have a town in Japan uh in next to the Fukushima prefecture called Leno and it's dedicated to UFOs And like over 50% of the residents all believe in UFOs. There's a museum dedicated to UFOs and and there during the spill they say the UFOs came down. They helped clean up the spill. This this this monk who guards this temple in Japan. And so it's just fascinating. It's like they're the stewards of the earth.

They may well be. Um it begins with the opening question. Um, as I said, I felt all the way along these unexpected interrelated events. There was a there was a message of the madness somewhere. And my mother telling me, just keep doing what you're doing. You have a purpose. You have a purpose. And you may not know

it until the end, but well because I may be approaching the end. Hold on. My doctors say I'm I will outlast my mother. She lived to That's Yes. Yeah. But my doctors say, "No, you have no physiological problems. No troubles with your knees and hips and all that stuff." at at 89. To be clear, you're you're already lasting longer than most of my interview subjects. So,

Christian her former governor of Massachusetts. So, you know, I was familiar with New England. The first Friday I came to the So I said, "Why am I here?" I asked for it. said the day

that you met the president of MIT, that day your name went in all the important books of talent that that that who keeps They not only CI but you know all the majestic holy guardians they also

to protect the world. So so you you were you to come to me and to me for you are trash. the world and how the world works. It just is.

majestic in its counterintelligence context? Absolutely. But he used the word so secondhand, so casually that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group. In my opinion, a group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events, not just extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have gone by many names. 5412, the [music] 303 committee, the committee of 40, and they probably involve subcommittees we'll

never know the names of. oxygen hovering at unsafe levels, Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop telling stories about his past. There was so much he wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back channel with Harold in 2009, but that Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping

Shiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky. We even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on Earth to break the 4-minute mile after Roger Banister. Apparently, Harold could repeatedly break the 4-minute mile in his 20s. into trippier territory. Harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsen Brown. We discussed Brown's obsession with time travel because

gravity is linked with time and general relativity. We talked about how Towns and Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines. A very talkative Harold Malmgrren went noticeably silent. of yourself, man. And I know we've been talking for an hour now, and uh um I I wish I could be with you in person. Um

and I miss you, man. And uh I I want you to just get better. Uh uh you know, I Yeah, I really hope you uh you rest up and you have my number so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with [music] anything. And uh I'm going to be out of here pretty soon. And my health is good. people out of my way. [laughter]

agent turned Hollywood liaison wrote a book in 2012. The book discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients. The object also relays critical information about future by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members. The committee are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated to deal with the

issue of non-human intelligence. The main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmer's who is plucked by the head honchos of the office of strategic services and then this special committee. He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and manage complex He is also taken in and out of a liinal timeless dominion where he is taught important things by other worldly beings that go to determine his purpose in

Chalmer's had a purpose. It was a deeply installed driven purpose even if it was The first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon, "Truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible." passing, I thought I'd bring up time travel one last time.

connected with time travel in any way? many many times and the answer is yes. Nothing else explains didn't have the slightest inhibition

I don't know why I knew it I know it and in fact what I did say was breaking True. I was known knowledge at that time you know. So if you ask me did I have a Now my mother was the most remarkable person. She read books like no tomorrow.

She read so many books. he kept saying to me, you have to understand you cannot decide by yourself. You were given knowledge. There was a purpose. [music] You have to pursue your purpose.