Eric Davis: “A US President Was Briefed on UFOs!”

of them and I gave Dave all my data all my briefing information and he took that ran with it and he found everything George Bush when he was the CIA director he was given some pretty spectacular information about a major UAP event took place in early 60s and Bush's eyes lit up and this is what he's told me he said what are you talking about the Pentagon liaison officer told him all about it he said are you kidding me there there's a there there yeah and he said said absolutely and he said well I want to see the evidence and the evidence was in the form of

documentation but the film was the special episode of American Alchemy featuring a groundbreaking interview with the legendary Eric Davis Eric is a renowned scientist how put offs Protege and probably more of an expert in UFO propulsion an exotic physics principles than just about anybody on Earth he's written a fantastic book called The

defense in Aerospace and holds a very strong background in mathematics materials R&D and physics for now he's chosen to remain pseudonymous due to his work in sensitive areas of National Security Jack and I are going to be starting a technical series together on UFO physics it's going to be an extremely deep dive on how UFOs fly the Exotic principles they employ and materials they use but this interview also involves some incredible journalists in the world of UFOs this interview would not have been possible

without them first off thank you to THV the incredible host of catastrophic disclosure I also want to thank his partner on the channel Katarina who is a biomedical PhD she's brilliant and she's the editor and videographer on the channel we're also super grateful to James Faulk host of neon Galactic a PBS Affiliated podcast and YouTube channel which goes into UAP Consciousness it's incredibly deep and worth checking out Rob Jones was also involved here he's a nuclear engineer and Navy sailor go

follow him on Twitter for some incredible insights finally I want to give a special shout out and thank you to UAP gerb he is honestly the deepest researcher I've met in the last year when it comes to uaps he runs an incredible Channel called UAP gerb he's deeper than just about anybody I know on nuts and bolts UFO research we're going to drop an interview very soon and hopefully all of you get to see how ridiculous impressive his knowledge is so if you're going to watch this interview please subscribe to all of these channels they're going to come out with variations of this interview with

commentary and other remixes and maybe even some footage that we don't include here on their own respective channels they're doing incredibly important work consider subscriptions on those channels the passcode for watching this interview we need more people covering this topic the point is there's strength and numbers we're all on the same team and we need as many high credibility high quality people cing this as possible without further Ado please enjoy this special episode of American Alchemy with our amazing technical correspondent Jack

and the prince of exotic propulsion himself Eric W Davis the big little arrow Faith guys the off toop guys the AIP guys yall have been at the Forefront of really starting the public discourse on all of this stuff and Dr Jim ly he mentioned if he were asked to testify before Congress that he would actually lie before Congress instead of you know speaking against his ndas and honor to honor his ndas and the things he's you

know want to protect and so I know that's a bit controversial because at this point L alzando has testified uh we interviewed him last week and and they did so under oath yes so Jim didn't say what happens if he takes the oath of if he takes an oath because if he takes an oath lying to Congress in a testimony is perjury and he can go to jail for that and you saw what happened the NDA actually the NDA will prevent him from

uh giving testimony but he chooses to yeah but however if they issue him a subpoena to appear before Congress then he's going to have to work with the dod staff to figure out how to how he's going to do it now here's how Dave grush did it Dave grush was able to give was approved by the Department of Defense I don't remember what the acronym means anymore it's tpsr so doser approved his public testimony and approved what he could say publicly the rest of what he couldn't

say publicly he said in a classified hearing so we had a classified hearing on his whistleblower complaint Jim would have to do the same thing and Jim should know that and I worked with him on the assap so I know him so he he I don't know why he would said have to lie before Congress he knows if you're going to take an oath before the committee uh lying is perjury and you're in trouble and the NDA issue can be worked out with the doser however there are times when they don't administer an oath but you don't want to lie because that'll be a

public reputation damage on you right if even though you didn't take an oath but you lied before Congress you to you lied I know for you it's kind of a weird state right now because your alleged memo has been entered into Congressional Record and so my question is simply this if you were asked to appear before Congress under oath would you willingly do that would you testify I would Happ to get advice from a lawyer first very smart answer I'd have to get an advice from a lawyer who has a

background on that particular issue because DOD can come after me and the IC could come after me they could prevent me from getting a job again by by making sure that I don't get my security clearances p and what happened to Dave grush after he filed his whistleblower complaint it was before he ever testified right what happened to Dave grash is he got harassed and intimidated both him and his wife he got harassed by uh by someone in the National reconnaissance office and then he uh got physically harassed at his home and in his Vehicles by people unknown and then

armed services committee staff in classified settings what happened is I briefed the first group in 2019 then later now we're in 2022 and another group comes out to Huntsville instead of me going to D they're coming out to see me in Huntsville yeah and I'm briefing them so it's a new group of people and after one phone call with uh representative Mike Gallagher Republican representative W of the of his district in Wyoming so I had a short phone call with him maybe about 2025 minutes and then I had an interview uh just last

month with the two senior staff on the subcommittee that just recently held the house hearings yeah that Lou alzando so they asked me a lot of questions they they were short on time so we had a half hour conversation and there really should have been a followup interview because there were more open questions left to be answered that they didn't have time they never followed up and I never got an invite to uh to testify okay so there but I have made it known that the only way I'll testify actually

the reality is in a in a classified setting well yeah I would imagine there's not much slam dunk testimony that can be given in the unclassified Vic right I'll tell you this Dave did did give the classified testimony and he gave them everything he gave them the names and locations and programs and people all I had was the stuff that I accumulated and gathered going up through the ASAP and ative and what happened during the UAP ETF was uh what J Stratton was doing then so I had left that area and then I had a little bit of stuff going on when

I worked for the AOS space Corporation and that's how I met Dave brush right Jay Stratton introduced me to Dave and his government customer who I won't name he was a gs-15 at the time and Dave worked for him and um he got promoted later um uh to scs1 this Anonymous individual this is the one that Dave worked with at the interal sure and so I breath them so they basically invited me through the Aerospace Corporation apparatus because Aerospace is the ffrdc that supports nro and so they have a

contract and they uh flew me out to where they were located in Colorado Springs and I gave them both briefing not just them uh this included the Aerospace Personnel that were supporting the nro office nro was a tenant organization in the Aerospace campus there so we have one building now it's two and in that one building they have skips build in entire floors and then office suite that are built inside of Skips that that enclose the office suits so this program that Dave and his government customer worked at was one of those uh office suites in a skip so he's

got a lot of so that gs15 has a lot of has has a number of Aerospace employees supporting his program okay and Dave was doing some aspect of that on the security side as one of Jay stratton's uh contributors to the U APF because he was the nro liazon officer to the APF so anyway I met both of them and I gave Dave all my data all my briefing information and he took that ran with it and he found everything and then later on I think maybe a year or two later

yeah actually almost two years later somewhere in that period they finally got to be meet with Hal put off and and he briefed them with his set of information a lot of what he has overlaps mind but I have a lot of unique information both in and outside of the era of the 15 years that I worked with how a lot of it came from nids and how knew some of that a lot of came from afrl and then a lot of it came uh through the assap with my interactions with uh the CIA and other agencies and companies and so forth so Dave yeah Dave basically ran with our data mine and

house and uh found everything found 40 Witnesses um I I'm not going to say who they are but I could say that uh I know two of them can you say how many of them are in this building I'll say I know that at least one that one only one of them is in the building and the guy who didn't come to the conference because he had a a travel Conflict for a pre pre-arranged I think family trip or something uh if he were here he'd be the second one and all the rest of them are not here in the building that and um

there's more to it than that but I can't discuss it because then that I would identify who the two witness understand so yesterday you made some pretty remarkable statements on kind of finding evidence of Legacy programs while working at ASAP and you mentioned that um under Eisenhower pads is a presidential uh emergency action documents were kind of used to create wave special access programs free from congressional oversight I wanted to see um during your time investigating Legacy programs did you encounter other um kind of unique classification standards like no for no foreign National excluded

program material for these programs kind of dealing witha yeah those are not new or unusual um there's known SCI compartments SCI being sensitive compartmentalized information but there's hidden seci compartments and that's what a lot of the American public ises not aware of that's not talked about a lot and then there's the special access programs and you've got four types you got regular saps just special aess program you have a wave special assess program you'll have an un acknowledged one in you all have waved un acknowledged one and actually I'm not

sure that the two in the middle are separate really I think more likely it's waved and un acknowledged at the same time so that might be just a third category uh or or even just a second category so Dave and I had a lot of discussions I I went through when I was at Erol space I went through special Access program security training so I could uh qualify to uh be it's not that I wanted to qualify to be a security officer I just wanted to qualify to to indicate to the company and the government customers

that I've gone through that level of training comparable to what security officers for special access programs have and so that would help my eligibility to get access more than anything and that didn't happen I didn't get it but I uh I did get I did do the training so Dave and I talked about that as a consequence and I said Dave it seemed like these hidden seis are no different than saps and and so that's when he said yeah really uh they've been having that argument among the security uh Personnel Security Experts throughout the IC and the dod

they've been having an argument for some significant period of time over really there's a whether there is a real distinction between a hidden seci and an sap most of the people like Dave and I actually came to the conclusion that saps are just the same thing as a hidden seci I think something a lot of people don't ask that has kind of captured my attention during your time investigating Legacy programs did you see much collaboration or compartmental ization between programs that may exist in Navy Air Force Army to it's too Stow piped or compartmentalized you can't open it up to another one unless there is a need to

back in the 1980s who did a deep dive in this after Reagan became president and uh he did say he did he did correctly say that the compartmentalization of seis but mostly saps was really horrible because you end up duplicating programs doing the same thing so we're now spending taxpayers dollars at twice the magnitude doing the same thing between two programs and they can't communicate that to yeah they can't collaborate they can't come to it to an understanding of

say hey oh yeah you exist oh and you exist but and what you're working on is what we're working on but we're spending all the government's money this way why don't we join forces and maybe cut the budget but that isn't what happens you can't do that you actually sent me the article to Liberation times piece that Chris sharp wrote he was kind of describing for I think the first time some of the the the intimate details of the of the ecosystem of the pro of the program anonomous and that was where I I heard for the first time that doe and then uh what was it called office of

weap or CIA weapons counter proliferation that's the modern name of winpack the weapons intelligence uh nuclear proliferation and Arm Control I actually got hired by the CIA to be the branch chief science K scientist of winpack back in late 2003 wow yeah so and so they talked about how doe that group and a bunch of combatant commands all do their own thing to some extent and there's really not an executive head you know adjudicating uh conflicts or or

re you know duplicate work like you're saying you could have Navy programs and Air Force programs doing the same thing keep in mind that that c that uh we call the counter proliferation program right and winpack are actually multi- agency they're not just the CIA they're CIA NSA nro because when I got hired the hiring manager that was going to be my boss he briefed me on what my job duties were going to be what organizations were involved and that I was going to interface with all these organizations and he wrote down two Hong list on a

couple of well two two lists on a couple columns they weren't that long but they were all the agencies that were um fused together to run wi the winpack operation so winpack will seek resources and Personnel from that agency that agency this agency and that agency do accomplish different things I think one winpack member recently mentioned kind of as a gatekeeper of Legacy programs was Glen Gaffney if you guys remember that from various reporting I think Chris sharp touched on it as well did

you ever interact with Glen Gaffney I didn't have direct interaction with them but the Aerospace def uh defense firm that we were working we were trying to work with during the assap had Direct interaction with him as well as he uh he was a senior VP and his exe and the executive VP of the corporation had they had to have a conversation with Glenn Gaffney yeah and he was very antagonistic about that company releasing to us under the DIA to nids huh to nids right to us no to um to

Bigos space Advanced space studies and earthtech right to release to us their collection of Crash retrieval materials that they've had since before got shut down in ' 89 so he stepped right in the middle of it first he was surprised that company uh still retained materials that when they were supposed to give it up and return it back in ' 89 no kidding and then he uh then he said his answer to that whole question about giving aor giving permission for them to share it with us under that classified setting

so he's looking at I I I can understand what William ly is looking at the majority leader of the Senate is telling him I want you to you know I a very nice letter the Letter's been posted on the internet so very nice letter saying well we have reason that we need to do this etc etc and Lyn didn't buy it because that was an official channel for how you create a sap a program that's already tssi and elevated up to a sap there's a whole process procedure bureaucracy and red tape that you have to go through and Harry was using political muscle to

bypass all that and and the executive branch is taught where trained not to do that Capitol Hill is not their Taskmaster the Taskmaster is the president of the United States the commander-in-chief the head of the executive branch now uh who was the president of that it was Bush so George W bush if Harry Reid had written the letter to Bush or actually met him face to face which would have been far more effective I don't know how possible it would have been but it would have been had a much higher chance that bush would

call down to William Lynn or he would have maybe his National Security advisor Steven Hadley call the Secretary of defense's office actually and maybe the under secretary of defense for intelligence and security and say uh okay there's this program I wanted to get a sap sure and if the president says it's it I want a sap they're going to have to sap it and Lando's book he specifically mentions how you know they to locky M to

see if they could you know get inside this program and have some of this material and they were pretty much you know blocked out by the program manager and of course the red tape Glen Gaffney was the director of the uh I'm yeah he was a director I think his title was deputy director of the CIA um over the directorate of Science and Technology and that's where the UFO or the UAP portfolio was held so he's the portfolio owner at the

time he was there though I guess maybe his title deputy director of Science and Technology it it it depends on how they organize it those days but anyway that's what he but he he run ran that director so he just stepped in the middle and just said absolutely not we're not going to do that I wonder uh HW former director of CIA do you think it stands the reason that HW might have known more than many other modern Presidents by virtue of I had conversations with him back in 2003

um what he learned he was not briefed as a president on this subject he was briefed as an incoming CIA director not surprised and that's all he had on it when he became president he didn't hear about it anymore when he was um when he was the CIA director he was given some pretty spectacular information and um and he insisted that he he wanted to see that this is DoD information what's funny is that this that his agency was the portfolio owner for for uaps so

he even he wasn't told who in his in the CIA was running it for him to get briefed by for him to call on his phone and say I need you to breef me he didn't wasn't told instead it was the um Pentagon liaison officer who had no intention on briefing him about UFOs or uaps and instead he assumed that bush had already been briefed by his CIA Personnel or his his uh leadership sure Who oversee that portfolio and he accidentally assumed

that he started rattling off about a major U UAP event um that was took place in early 60s and Bush's eyes lit up and this is what he's told me he said what are you talking about so the the uh Pentagon liaison officer told him all about it he said are you kidding me there's there's a there there yeah and he said absolutely and he said well I want to see the evidence and the evidence was in the form of of a of a film um and some documentation reports or something but

the film was the primary thing and he was declined the liazon officer said no you don't have a need to know because this is DoD intelligence and we're not going to get it give it to you only if there's an event that happens that requires you to take that information up to the president and the National Security actually go to National Security advisor he's the Clearing House for all things UAP so you go to the National the president's National Security advisor and you say my agency just had a major event that we collected

Intelligence on and it's going to require a presidential um decision and the National Security advisor is going to have to say okay here's a number at your agency who you're going to call to get a full briefing on the whole UFO thing and meanwhile I will schedule a meeting in the Oval Office with the president for that's how that works and I think the P do doents could possibly emerge from that if it's a if it's a historical thing no uh that P that historical event might already be covered by a peed and that's probably

why that guy that briefing officer the liaison officer from the Pentagon acally slipped up by wrongly assuming that Bush was already briefed the fact is is yes you can brief the peed within the executive branch but he assumed that bush had been and he hadn't been so my guess is is that since that was not a new event it was an old historical event um that there' be no need to brief Bush on the PE that was involved so he would never know he would just hear about the evidence that that recorded that event

happening and it happened at a military base and um and so there you go and speaking of those Peds yesterday you also made some super interesting comments on kind of private contracts specifically I think you said Source contracts all Source instead of putting out a project up for for a contract bid an RFB yeah you have to have to issue either a broader announcement which is how bigel Aerospace applied to submit a bid for the assap contract so it's

either a request for proposals or a broad are announcement and if you do that then you're going to severely compromise the security of an sap so they don't do that you don't you don't invite different companies to see the specs of the program the outline and the specs and the deliverables expected over the period of per performance expected in the RFP or the baa instead the government agency has the contract guy and the program manager guy and maybe one other authority over all that

they're going to they're going to call up their favorite contractor who who they know or believe could successfully execute the project and they'll say okay we got we want to give you a contract here's how much money and here's how many years we're going to pay up and the company's stupid they'll say no if the smart they'll say yes and generally um the Beltway Bandits and the and the Legacy Aerospace industry are not stupid they they want they need money so they will always say would those be

authorized contracts then or have a transfer of authority those S Source contracts would they be traceable no uh usually they set up a fret company to pass the money through so this this roster of kind of the big defense contractors for these big projects would that roster be pretty pretty thin only a couple entries there and I don't know I do know from the um Aerospace company that I interacted with quite frequently during the assap they did go to the government customer it wasn't always a CIA it was Air Force at

times so I think the money is transmitted through a pass through company but they know very well who their government customer is the government customer knows very well who they are and that they have a contract so I think the fact that the money goes through a a hard to audit Channel doesn't prevent the two from talking because the program does get Contract monitoring and contract oversight from the government customer so they will exert that authority over

the over the I wanted to ask you about Dave brush's irad fraud allegations you recall what he talks about in Congress he alleged that at least one contract and I believe alzando repeated it in his house hearing the allegation was made that at some point in time for some duration a contractor artificially inflated the bud the The Proposal budget for a black budget program so that they could siphon that money off into irad to do an irad project because frequently you can tax the duct to the funding for right the

profit dollars and move them and then instead of just hoping they overperformed they like they like doctored the situation so that they definitely overperformed then the extra money was sort of moved into this okay I don't have any insights on that okay and um uh there are two types of contrasts it's either Cost Plus uh fee or fixed fixed cost fixed firm price yeah so those are the only contract Vehicles I'm aware of I I'm not aware that there's anything special just because of uaps so it's either Cost Plus or firm cost firm

fix fixed price yeah one of those is how NASA tends to issue contracts like aremis is way over budget over schedule and uh the Orion heat sheet Shield at the same thing to the Orion um Boeing become a disaster with the CST 100 or this what was it star starer Starliner yes so that is under Cost Plus right right and that's where the government gets screwed on so I have no idea what contract vehicles are used for these for uaps it's it's like now you're down in

the weeds and it really doesn't matter sure sure well speaking of these sort of corporate entities here um people are sort of aware that okay maybe they have their groups to do this engineering to do this material analysis what what have you in their programs but is there any Merit to there being uh private strike teams who are having their own contested crash recovery recoveries with the public strike tees

um no I'm not familiar with any I haven't heard any such thing even out in the open oh even in the classified manual I haven't heard there's a there's a story of apparently um a private military contractor you know contracted by locky Martin sent out to recover a crash and the jck team sent out to the same crash site and they're apparently being exchange of fire and K and you know clearly this would generate a lot of paper right wow I'm not familiar with that incident so all this talk about private contractors you know the big

locky Martin what about federally funded research and development centers such as miter Rand Triad o Ridge and u arc's university Affiliated research where where did they fall into this only one and I won't name it um started out as a contractor in 1960s 30 not too long after it was born was actually spin-off of TRW so TRW was the principal investigator for the first roughly what almost 30 yeah practically well 29

years but I know that another company would dispute that they thought they were primary Prim principal contractor in fact the principal contractor serves a leadership role that the other companies kind of um they don't know what's going on but they know who's involved at the you know the Scuttle level you know Scuttle level and so they know at the Scuttle bet L level through um Communications with the government

customer who else would be involved but they don't have Direct Communications with those other companies because compartmentalization so I do know that there'd be a dispute because there was I mean the the senior VP of the company I interacted with during the Assa with that well we had the program running and they didn't consider somebody else as the principal investigator I think that they would know that the government customer knows that so I think that's where the

misunderstanding was occurring is down at the company level so yeah uh F the only ffrd I know of is the one that spun off of TRW my recollection from the senior vice president of the other company is that they kind of uh left that whole line of work at some point just because I think they did all they could do and so they got out of it somewhere maybe 10 a little or a little more years after they got started on it so probably in the early '70s is when

they left it and then uh we had the other Legacy firms that were involved so there were for overall that would make sense cuz a lot of the ffr DC's that were started kind of uh were born out of the early 60s late 50s and kind of fulfilled their purpose within 10 years then moved on to other projects like Rand for example started off as project Rand and uh just speaking of what you know and what you don't know one of the things you kind of definitively said during your uh talk up there was that there are no arvs or alien repr

production vehicles and so I think that's really are kind of a bombshell because there's so many theories out there like oh this incident or that ORV but you know we I can sort of fake their word for it um because we barely scratched the surface of how they even yeah so I have some questions about this so like yeah do you think anything's happened recently maybe like in the last like 10 years that's real New like advancement like progress I'm not aware of it because I'm out of it now I've been out of it since a tip ended so yeah so I'm read

into it um at the level I was for the assap and asip atip purposes I don't know all I do know is I was given a firm hey in 1989 the CIA shut it all down because nobody us and we know the other companies that we had been found out from our customer didn't make any progress after several decades of bestes there was no progress made so I said so what's the story about North or gemman had having an arv or somebody

out at Area 51 having an arv and he said oh that's all myth he said the people that have been putting out there don't know what the hell they're talking about and they don't know why unless they're just another Bob Lazar type they're just going to they're long on the tooth and they're going to tell a story yeah is there any chance that was disinformation or that was passage material no actually it wasn't disinformation it was even Bob lazzar's information is disinformation it's because they they believe their own I mean that they were telling you that there's no arvs we've made no no that's not disinformation no that

that's coming straight on a classified level with me having the need to know and they don't have a need to give me disinformation we're on a program and we're going to give them contract money to work with us and they're not going to sit there and with us if we're going to give them money I think so it's way too 5D chess right yeah I guess when you're when you're saying arv do you mean like a onetoone recreation of a UAP and an hi vehicle or do you think there's aircraft systems that have kind of leveraged Technologies off definitely no aircraft systems that have leveraged anything um and there's been no one toone reproduction a lot of that fell

into the psyche of of the UFO Community because of Bob Lazar and then Brad Sensen and Mark Mark mcis so I don't know where they're coming from and then other people kind of came out of the woodwork saying the same thing but no proof I mean there's been photographs but those photographs I I haven't analyzed them I don't remember Bruce mcabe looked at them I know Bruce mcabe had only said um they definitely looked like hoaxes to him but I I don't think he ever issued a report on them because

he's got lots of reports on uaps that he has done photo and and film and video analysis of it have you ever spoken to the Brad Sorenson and mandish how put off house yeah what do you think about adversarial governments having uh you know functional vehicles that they' okay if they do then basically uh why are we still a country you know why haven't we been the and especially if it's an adversarial government with the resources because there are adversarial governments that

don't have the resources that'd be North Korea Iran and probably a few others but the big ones would be China and Russia yeah and well suppose it's still right now they're still playing with conventional propulsion like Hypersonic missiles supersonic missiles subsonic missiles uh multiple Munitions multiple Warheads um uh etc etc no nobody's got an arv type crap zipping over Ukraine and Ukraine certainly hasn't been

reporting any such things of that nature right and they would have they would have screened bloody murder and taken it straight to the president of the United States the CIA the Department of State would have said here's our photographs and here's our recordings of it and this is this and look there's a so there's a Russian symbol on it you know yeah yeah and so no that hasn't happened I mean if if it was for real we would see a dramatic change in the balance of power the United States the the our intelligence agency would probably have

known about it before Ukraine would have gotten hit in such a hypothetical story or scenario and that just hasn't happened so they haven't been successful I can't believe they're any more successful than we but you do agree with Russia's contention that they have programs they have wreckage they have technology that they're um yeah I China is like a closed door I know through how put up that they have at least one and I think he might have gotten that officially through some work he did with the DIA where he did go to China for them but not for that reason and he probably learned something over there uh

I think there's other sources that have said similar uh probably Dave grush has more information on that than even I thought to ask him about uh but Russia is one that had some crash retrievals and that's been released when the Soviet Union fell KGB opened up the files George knap went there other people went there found the thread three documents and I had independent um and I can't get into this because it's still super classified but through the assap program I had a connection in with a three-letter agency that collected um

not from the KGB open records they collected it from their own asset and the asset was was filtering out actual legitimate documents photos reports Technical and operational and executive summary type there's enough evidence that I saw in classified setting that convinced me that they have it at least one quite some time one crash retrieval yeah I can't say that it would go back to the 40s 50s or 60s or 70s I know I

was at the end of the 80s was the one I was exposed to okay all right so they have had something and they've got Hardware but I don't see that they've been any successful are there um any other breadcrumbs that you gave to Dave grush that might be useful to us from kind of like an open source intelligence perspective that we could start to follow in kind of pick up and oh boys this is really super uh it's classified still the breadcrumbs I gave him are proprietary to nids and bass big space

Advanced space studies and classified to DIA and another three-letter agency and maybe two I need to wait for a couple of people at the corporate level to die of old age and when they do that I won't have trouble with lawyers right and then come out with the book now the classified stuff in that I don't know what I'm going to do with that you're that's classified for Life yeah yeah so and they could they could declassify up to 25 years but I've had so much derivative classification training that I found out that the rules

for declassification are uh do include the ability to maintain classification up to even 75 years so bass has to maintain that classification for 75 years wow so if you necessarily can justify that you can't declassify after 25 years 75 seems to be the maximum how did your perspective change on what viable approaches were to breakthrough propulsion physics from when you started it to when you end when you finished the project what did you initially think was interesting that you threw away and then

what sort of came to the for well what got thrown away is those Concepts that don't meet the criteria for novel disruptive innovation or testable or theoretically well- defined Concepts uh people come to you uh or came to us and others with all kinds of inventions and ideas like the sural effect the dean drive those kind of things uh uh uh cion uh SpaceTime torsion and torsion for

your viewers uh is basically just a defect or crack or fisser in the SpaceTime continum and Einstein looked at that and it looked like the issue of well if you're going to if you're going to have a path of a particle undergoing motion through SpaceTime and it's going to encounter this what's the gravitational or SpaceTime curvature manifestations of coming into that crack going around it what what is it due to you if it go if you go around it or can you go across it what are the what are the physics uh consequences of doing

that from within general relativity so Einstein looked at all that and he was trying to find out of torsion might give you a prescription to describe elementary particle spin and he found out that was not the case so he also found out that torsion does produce uh testable predictions that we have observed and it it actually produces uh or predicts inconsistent results and so he ended up tossing away torsion saying you know uh it's a great

um concept to look at but uh it it doesn't hold water because it makes the relativistic field equations inconsistent uh so it loses its self-consistency it'll make wrong predictions of phenomenon already uh observed and it it it's just not refined enough there's just something missing from it and it cannot definitely be used to describe a particle spin whether it be macroscopic particles or Quantum particles it just didn't reach that

threshold so ringer marcker actually did an experiment and I'm not going to get into it cuz I don't remember enough of it anymore and uh he did an experiment that was specifically designed to test whether torsion existed in space time and it was a wellth out apparatus very welld designed they did it at General Electric so they had a staff of physicist and uh Engineers to help uh do the prediction uh on what such an instrument would be like and how it would function and how you would design

it and build it so they they they did it just like uh Kip Thorne and the big giant team that formed ligo uh did when they got started looking at gravitational wave detectors in the uh 1970s and uh he got an old result basically he couldn't find any sign of any SpaceTime torsion and so at least at that level it was thorough enough type of experiment you it's just like what Gary Nolan said it was data and then the data formed the evidence and then you interpret it in the context of the

hypothesis and then you form your conclusion and the conclusion was we don't see SpaceTime torsion so it must not exist at least at that level that doesn't close the door on torsion because there could be other experiments somebody can think of of some other formalism that's right but unfortunately we haven't seen that happen yet and um and the interesting thing is is that like I said if you go back to general relativity and Einstein messing with that when he was developing the the general theory of relativity and it's uh

16 field equations um it starts is 256 field equations but due to symmetry properties you can knock them down to 16 and I think a couple more will bring it down to 10 so 10 field equation and it just basically gets you inconsistent results and that's a problem so it's telling you already that you're not going to get right answers by incorporating torsion and that's a problem because that means you know you're you're trying to develop a physics that produces uh uh testable prediction that when you observe them

you're not going to just observe new predictions you want to observe old predictions just to make sure the theory is still correct because it's got to predict the old stuff that have been observed old phenomenon and it didn't do that it just gave you wrong answers all the way around yeah now um when you talk about like the N order differential equations associated with gr and you get 256 equations that that only simplify due to symmetries what is your perspective on the approach to like mathematical Beauty in physics I mean do you do you insist or do you have a do

you have a notion that the the The Theory of Everything or the gut will turn out to be elegant or do you sort of think it might be clumsy and clunky and you know 19,000 equations I mean do you have any perspective on that with regard to what a unified field Theory respect I don't think I don't think it's yeah uh no I don't uh I'm in the camp of physicist that we we already know and a lot of other physicist know that Einstein proved that gravity is not a fundamental force of nature it emerges

from the fabric of space when it's distorted or curved or bent and sakarov he believed that the metric elasticity of space described by the SpaceTime metric which is just a very simple equation actually and uh he said that should come from the quantum vacuum fluctuations because he sees the quantum vacuum fluctuations as being the seed of all existence and he was right uh basically that started from Richard feineman when he got the Nobel Prize for the quantum electrodynamics theory and then later on when that got unified with

the weak nuclear force it became the electro weak uh Theory separately we have quantum chromodynamic theory which describes the theory uh overseeing uh the strong nuclear force which basically emerges from Cork or Quantum chromodynamics or the interaction between quk and gluons gluons being the photons of the strong nuclear force uh they have instead of yeah they don't have a mass they move at the speed of light they have a spin one just like a photon does but unlike a photon they have three color charges or it can have

combination of those color actually they have two color charges so they have a combination of color charges which are a symmetry property of the theory they're not an act they're not an electric charge really they actually have no electric charge they generally can't be separated is that right you can't get color charged particles uh the in terms of uh pulling them apart popping a color you can B inside the head Ron you can but um but when you have high energy collisions like what happened at the relativistic heavy ion collider it Cave National Lab uh for a brief instant or

just an instant long enough that you can measure it you can pull the uh quirks out of the hadrons they'll be mixed in with the gluons and you will actually produce quart gluon plasmas and the plasmas will exist as a as a as a as an entity I don't want to say a soliton but as an entity on its own and it's outside of the elementary particle from which it was uh created the collider is colliding um heavy atoms usually uranium uh lead iron even even protons yeah at

99.996% the speed of light and so there's enough energy centered mass energy in there in the relativistic ref frame that you can literally blow those hadrons apart a hadron is basically two classes Masons and Barons and of the Barons there's protons and neutrons so basically you're looking at the heavy nuclei of these ions you strip the electrons off and you're going to have these super heavy uranium or iron or lead oh gold and silver are another ones and even as light as a single uh proton

for hydrogen atom nucleus and uh They smash these things together and uh you're liberating literally the quirks right out of those protons and in the heavier atoms out of all the protons and neutrons they get bash into each other at really high energy and so uh that's an example of when that happens so qcd theory is not complimentary or compatible with Electro weak Theory they cannot be unified right we have they that was a dream that was a projection an extrapolation and has not come to fruition likewise gravity is not a force

of nature it emerges from space-time phenomenon the space-time manifold or the Continuum or however you want to describe it and it's a coupling constant measures the strength of the interaction force between particles so for the uh Quantum electrodynamics that's the electromagnetic fine structure fine structure constant then for Electro weight Theory well now that's Blended in with the weak nuclear force wheat force is responsible for the decay of quirks and high energy quirks or low energy quirks radioactive decay is another one

where atoms transmute and Decay away and and Elementary particles are emitted or even alpha particles which are uh helium nucleus are emitted so that's what the weak for so it turns out they're both two sides of the same coin of the same unified Force well it's coupling constant is actually the electromagnetic fine structure constant divided by 100 times the proton Mass squared so it's scaled to the proton Mass so then when you're talking about gravity gravity's uh coupling constant it has uh the first two I mentioned have no Dimensions the

Newton factor from the coupling constant into units of one over meter squar that's how you measure space-time curvature on the left side of the field equation that has the re uh Richie curvature tensor and the Richie scaler multiplied by the metric tensor and 1/2 and they take this difference between the two for that reason we know we really can't unify those uh those two forces it's really Electro weak and Quantum chromodynamics we can't unify it to space-time curvature model and that's why and everybody's still attacking

Quantum super string has kind of died away because it can't make useful predictions but how or testable predictions however it's been very successful in mathematics and geometry and topology they have predicted a lot of new things in those areas but they're still hacking away at trying to get it to work as a quantum gravity Theory same thing with Quantum Loop uh gravity uh and gosh uh Roger Penrose had the most sexy version of quantum gravity that I fell in love with when I was in graduate school and it came out it was Twister Theory so he replaced the whole concept

with a whole new instead of a four-dimensional space time point of XYZ and a t or or different coordinate system but you'll always have a time in there and instead he was looking at energy momentum as a four Vector to describe an event in SpaceTime so we wanted to build an edifice of an algebra that handled that then a geometry that that algebra builds up and from that he was hoping to uh get a unified picture of the forces of nature and gravity and it it it was beautiful again like super String Theory uh great beautiful

mathematical results came out geometrical oh my gosh this thing is a this thing is an exercise of the most advanced uh version of complex math you've seen complex math when you were um in aerospace engineering so uh it just didn't go anywhere predicting it just didn't give you anything use yeah so basically we can't see a unified field Theory coming out of that well Dr Davis thank you so much for sitting down with us it's been incredibly revelatory and uh we're so glad you came this year to give a talk at Soul we hope we see you back oh yeah thank you very much yeah absolutely see you Jack thank you sir won't wait another 14

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