NASA Director: “I Saw A UFO Hovering In THIS Secret Hangar” (Ft. Greg Rogers) | EARLY & AD FREE

it from them." I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s. No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45° angle of attack without moving. So when these companies say, "Look, we made this thing. Look at how fancy it is." That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on. >> Different parts of the brain have different activities. >> Well, you know that, don't you?

>> Maybe you should interview me. under oath before Congress, he explained to the world and to our system of government a host of staggering revelations. The military has an alien craft retrieval program. There were bodies in some of these vehicles. And he also confirmed what had long been speculated, that some combination of

secret military programs and private aerospace companies have developed reverse engineered versions of this alien technology. Well, many of you watching this channel might have thought, like me, that Grush's personal bravery and commitment to disclosing these truths was worthy of the utmost respect. It was unfortunate to see the tried and tested playbook of discrediting and ad homonym attacks that emerged in the wake of his testimony. >> You know, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff. You know, I don't

like throwing shade, but like Neil Grass Tyson, right? >> Oh, yeah. >> He's made up his mind. I read I've read his tweets and I'm like, "Dude, you have a PhD in physics. Where's your curiosity? I can't even believe >> there's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic." However, even within UFO World, there were some who questioned the fact that Grush had not personally seen these crafts, but was relying on the testimony of dozens of those who had, members of the military or government that he hoped would personally come forward and back up his

claims. One man watching this testimony knew that he could be one of those to come forward. I thought I've got his six o'clock covered to stand up in a similar way with all of the risk of reputation and bravely break his silence about what he had seen. Dr. Gregory Rogers, a recently retired chief flight surgeon for NASA and the US Air Force and former director of aerospace medicine, has decided that now is the right time to tell the world what he had witnessed in

stunning firsthand detail. that we have a craft that in some way or another didn't come from here. This wasn't something in the sky off in the distance or on radar coming out of the ocean. This was something in our possession. But this conversation isn't only about UFOs. It's about God, the universe, science, as well as life and death. Dr. Rogers has been witnessed to the most confronting sites that most of us can scarcely imagine. And in this conversation, he bravely speaks about

his PTSD and the memories he carries and why he believes UFO disclosure and what he saw in our possession is the only path toward progress. So today, I'm so proud to present this conversation with the brilliant Dr. Greg Rogers. This is an absolute honor. I have Greg Rogers here. Uh you are another just extremely interesting witness who I've been trying to get on on the show for a while. Uh thank you so much to Chris Leto Le Letto

Files, an amazing show around UFOs and he's you know also a former pilot and um he does a really amazing interview with you. So I recommend everybody go check that out. Um, but he introduced us and after watching your interview with him, I was just fascinated by uh what you saw and your your background which I think is really beyond reproach and so I'm very excited to get into this. >> I'm very pleased to be here. This is an >> Oh, it's a total honor for me and uh I appreciate your courage and and coming out and and speaking out. Before we get

into that, just what what's what's a little bit about your your background? Well, uh, I was a flight surgeon for the United States Air Force and, um, became the chief of aerospace medicine at the 45th Space Wing, which included the Eastern Space and Missile Center, uh, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Patrick Air Force Base, and then also the Eastern Missile Range. But as such, we also supported uh tenant units that uh included a vast array of um

uh units in including um we we had aircraft from the 9inth strategic reconnaissance wing that most people would know as U2s. And uh we had the Air Force technical application center which is a whole other story but uh I uh did uh deployed to uh the South Atlantic in uh South America with AFTAC. But uh we did search and rescue missions out in the ocean. If somebody managed to sink

their boat and call in for help, we we would go out and and rescue them. Um so I had a wide range of duties. Now then the one that most people um find most fascinating was that I was the senior flight surgeon for the astronaut rescue and recovery team at Kennedy Space Center. So every time we had a space shuttle launch, uh I would climb in Jolly One. We we had uh other flight surgeons that would get in Jolly 2 and Jolly 3. So we would clear uh the box to

make sure that there was no unwanted um people into the downrange area at the time of launch. But then uh the three helicopters with the three flight doctors on it and um three sets of u PJ's par rescue jumpers were always sitting at the shuttle landing facility for any launch or landing uh opportunities for the space shuttle because uh nothing about flying the space shuttle is routine. Even at the

end of its um service time, it was still considered an experimental vehicle. >> Wow. So, that's a pretty important role. I mean, you were uh kind of hands-on with uh people inside the space shuttle at its kind of inception moment. >> Well, plus I helped to make other changes. As an example, when I first got there in 1989, uh do you remember the orange launch entry suits that the astronauts wore? >> Sure. Yeah. Well, in their right lower

leg pocket, they had two Kim lights and they were both red. As soon as I heard that, I said, "You got to be kidding. What are you doing with red chem lights?" And they said, "Well, we want to make sure it doesn't affect their night vision." I said, "Forget their night vision. First of all, green chem lights are not going to affect their night vision. It's they're not bright enough. But we can't see the red chem lights on our night vision goggles when we're looking for them unless we fly right over them. You give them green

chem lights and on a clear night we can spot them 5 miles away. So what I'm concerned about is my ability to rescue those astronauts and save their lives. So uh it took me a year and a half to to get NASA to switch to the green chem >> That's a big deal. See, you were the guy behind the switch from the red chem lights to the green chem lights. >> Yes. And in fact, after um one of the modata exercises um that that's an exercise where the astronauts would bail out into the

Atlantic Ocean and then uh all the rescue forces have to go find and rescue them regardless of the day or night or anything else. But Colonel Shokitis was the head of DDMS, which is the Department of Defense man space support office. And so, um, the following day, uh, when we had our debriefing, when it got around to me, he said, "Okay, Major Rogers, what do you complain about this year?" I said, "I'm going to complain about three of the same things I complained about last year because they didn't get fixed." And so, one of them

was uh the Kim Lights. And um after me throwing a fit in in that meeting um it it was only like 2 months later that we finally got the uh Kim Lights fixed. Crazy. Well, that's that's an amazing thing that you can, you know, take credit for. >> Yeah. Well, you know, people think of NASA as the greatest thing.

Some of the NASA managers wanted to make space suits and they did not want to involve the Air Force or the rescue forces. So, they made these beautiful blue flight suits. Uh you can still see astronauts uh having pictures taken in the blue flight suits. So, when you go back in history, you'll you'll see that when they showed it to the rescue forces, we all went, "You got to be kidding. Those are blue." when they bail out into the ocean, how are we going to

see them? So, um even if you go back to like the first few uh launches, um STS 1 2 3 4 um uh they had to go to Beal Air Force Base and borrow the yellow space suits that the U2 and SR71 guys fly um because you couldn't fly with the NASA ones. So, um, anytime you know, go back and look at Young and

Krippen in STS1, they've got yellow flights space suits on. >> Whoa. Pretty crazy. Well, yeah. No, you think of it as this kind of um untouchably perfect, you know, organization and uh I guess >> it's not that. >> Yeah. Well, you know, it all boils down to humans and human error. So So, okay. So for context for the audience, you're at Patrick Air Force Base and Patrick Air Force Base >> in 1992. >> 1992. That's um in Florida, right? So you imagine you're at Florida. It

started out as the Banana uh River Naval Air Station. And while it was the Banana River uh Naval Air Station, >> um Flight 19 went missing. >> Mhm. And so the PBY that also went missing looking for them took off from Flight Ops uh at Patrick Air Force Base, but it was the Banana River Naval Air >> And why don't you back up for a second, just give people context about what Flight 19 is. >> Okay. Well, flight 19 was a a doomed set

of aircraft because uh when they took off, the lead pilot um became confused. And so, um there are some areas out there that even on our maps while I was flying there, you can't trust uh your compasses because of magnetic um deviations. And so that's part of what's some of the problem in the Bermuda Triangle which which was this was in >> this is so interesting because I just

met with a former NASA engineer out here and he was like look I think a lot of UFO stuff's a little overhyped but he goes I can tell you definitively that there is a little patch around the Bermuda Triangle sim or like near there where there is just tons of electromagnetic anomalies going on. He like he's like I don't know if it's like a portal or like what it is, but >> my personal belief is that there were probably in ancient ancient ancient times metal uh meteorites that landed

under the ocean floor. And as we fly over them, you can watch your compasses go crazy and then you fly two or three more miles and they settle down and you go right back to normal. So there are times that especially with our pilots who know how to fly by instrument flight rules, uh they would just forget the normal uh navigation, continue on their path because they knew when they got to the other side of the deformation area that they could trust their instruments

>> So what happened with flight 19? Well, they took off and they were going to go out and and do a bombing raid. Well, the the lead pilot got disoriented. You know, like I said, I talked to some of the guys that were in flight ops on that day and they were laughing and said the lead flight pilot um was arguing with his other guys because they were saying, "We're traveling east." and he said, "No, we've got to be in and around the

islands and near South Florida." And they said, "No, these islands are the Bahamas." And uh there were arguments uh about whether or not some of the crews would break off and say, "This guy is going to kill us." And so these guys were listening on the radio to all of these Navy pilots arguing among themselves. So, um, finally one of the guys said that two of the airplanes broke off and said, "We're heading west be because u we we are uh totally lost."

But he thought they were still over the um Gulf of Mexico. And so he continued to fly east, but he was confused. The weather conditions were bad that day. And so there were all sorts of problems. Well, when they lost contact with flight 19, they uh had this flying boat and it had two two wings, but it could land on water. Well, uh they went out a few miles and they lost contact with them, but there was a visiting ship that

registered an in-flight explosion at about the location where the PBY would have been. So because of the confluence of uh the loss of this flying boat and flight 19, everybody um heard the first big great story about the Bermuda Triangle from that flight. >> Wow. And so is does anybody know what happened to Flight 19? They just lost contact. They were heading east and

nobody knows. >> They only have limited amounts of fuel. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And when you run out of fuel, you're not fine anymore, >> right? And it was never found. >> And uh it was never found. >> And then, you know, back on the base, is there speculation that uh you know, all these sort of weird electromagnetic anomalies that you mentioned? Uh you know, what do people think caused caused these things? Um there there were discussion of of all of these things, but we had areas that we had marked on our maps that this is an

area that you don't want to trust your magnetic compass on. >> And and so we knew to either avoid those areas or account for the effect of the magnetic flaws when you flew over that >> Fascinating. Do you you know what I've found just anecdotally is when I meet people inside the government or who've worked at you know NASA or the Air Force you expect them to be less

conspiratorial than people on the outside in the civilian world right because like they they sort of know more >> well one way or the other >> often it's the inverse where they've seen a thing or two they know that you know there's some weird things in our reality like the you know Bermuda Triangle thing you just mentioned and so that kind opens them up to a whole host of possibilities. Are there any other things outside of the core experience that we're going to get into in 1992 that you experienced in a sort of government contact context, you know,

Air Force or NASA that um really kind of uh widened your worldview? Well, um there were a couple of just sort of transient events that we all looked at each other and said, you know, what was that? This this one time we were flying out uh I believe an aircraft had been reported spotted in in the water like 130 mi off the 110 radial uh from uh Cape Canaveral. And so as we're

flying out there, uh the weather's kind of funny. And so we had estimated uh what our time of arrival uh would be. And so we were flying straight and level. Didn't seem like anything was going on. But but when we got there, um we were 10 minutes later than what we expected. And so we thought, you know, man, we must have deviated from course or or something. But we're all sort of looking at each other like, nah, it could couldn't have

been that. But, you know, it it was just one of those weird events, but it it's not like you're going to talk about it or report it. We're we're not going to include it in the demission brief. >> What do you think caused it? It could have been that the winds we encountered uh made a difference, but it wasn't anything that we recognized at the time. >> So, um >> what was the speculation? >> We all just looked at each other. Nobody really said anything.

>> We we didn't speculate about that. >> Yeah. That's also, you know, a cultural thing, I think, where it's like you all look at each other, you're like, "That was weird." And then you kind of move on. You're stoic. Y >> Well, I want to get into the core experience. um which uh you've you've had a lot of courage to to come out and speak about. So it's it's what 1992. >> And what is your role and where are you >> Okay. I was the chief of aerospace medicine. So um >> what does that mean? >> Okay. Um the 45th Space Wing owned

everything at the Cape Patrick Air Force Base, Eastern Space and Missile Center, and some other things that um we won't be discussing, but um uh there was a medical group that was part of the 45th Space Wing, and that was the 45th medical group. So my colonel, the commander, uh, answered to the general for everything to do medically. You know, if somebody got sick at the officer's club

from eating something last night, well, we we got to go investigate uh, you know, with was something there. Just every kind of thing you can imagine. Did you manage a lot of people in that capacity or were you >> um I I had a bioenvironmental engineer. >> I had a medical um a military public uh health officer and then um underneath them were probably about uh 20 25

people. Okay. But then I also uh was the chief flight surgeon. So, I um oversaw the flight medicine program. So, I had a a a really good flight surgeon that was there when I got there and and she she was wonderful. Uh so, uh she helped uh teach me uh the ropes when I first got there and helped run everything, but we also had to do everything else. Um,

Cape Canaveral Air Force Station is a large facility and so um there has to be a company that oversees all of the normal stuff like like you would expect a town council would. So, somebody's got to maintain the roads, somebody's got to uh fix the um uh traffic lights if they go bad. But um this company was called EGNG which is a major major uh military

industrial uh corporation and so they oversaw all of the normal operations of that. However, that does not reprise the US Air Force from being responsible for it. So, uh, just like any contractor, you have to have a, uh, someone monitor the contract to make sure that the contractor is doing the right things. >> So, what was EG responsible for on the >> They were responsible for um,

uh, all of the the grounds. Uh, they maintained the buildings and did all of that kind of stuff. Now then in this building they maintained it but uh it was leased to locked. >> Uh this one was leased to Martin Marietta. Now then the reason I say them separately was that Martin Marietta was separate from Loheed at the time I was there. Only in 1995 did they ever join to be Loheed Martin. So, um, Martin

Marietta was was doing a uh a whole bunch of other things, but every contractor there, Boeing, Rathon, everything um they had to sort of lease their um their housing, their support, everything from EGNG. >> That's interesting. So EG&G had this like prime contractor position. >> Yes, they were they were the prime contractor for Cape Canaveral. >> And what do you do you know much about

about them because they you know they have an interesting history. They came out of MIT and Docertton. >> Yeah. EG&G is a whole story unto itself and yeah I'm I'm not going to touch that >> Guys, as you can tell Dr. Rogers was keeping some information and speculation about the company EGNG to himself here, but this is one of those histories I can't resist unpacking because EG&G's role in the UFO coverup might be far bigger than most people realize. So, a

quick history lesson. EG&G is most associated with one of its founders, Harold Doc Edertton. He was a brilliant scientist at MIT, a close associate of the legendary figure associated with the UFO world and the MJ12 and the father of the American nuclear program, Vanavar Bush. Doc Edertton had developed a revolutionary use of stroboscopic cameras that along with other pioneering wartime technology ended up being used in the Manhattan project. All of those

amazing photographs of the initial micros secondsonds of nuclear blasts that was EG&G. From the start, they were embedded in the deepest military secrets. Remember, when a test nuclear detonation goes off, often all of the sensors get fried in the area. This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse. So the novel filming techniques EG&G had developed would have been crucial to capturing UFOs >> because when the bomb goes off, you can't get in the first few seconds there are no electronics that work. So you're

not able to get any electrical readings or measurements. So all you have to look at are the films coming back from the >> And we all know UFOs show up consistently around nuclear detonations. This would have given EG&G proprietary and early knowledge of the UFO phenomena. By the 1950s, EGNG was woven into the fabric of the Atomic Energy Commission itself. If you've watched this channel before, you will know that the Atomic Energy Commission has more

than a few shady ties to UFO programs. EG&G became the AEC's prime contractor and later filled the same role for the Department of Energy. EG&G essentially ran the Nevada test site where the most nuclear detonations occurred. They also worked side by side with Los Alamos, Liverour, and Sandia Labs to develop and refine atomic weapons. The Atomic Energy Commission trusted EGNG with its most sensitive operations. They held the Q

clearances and had intimate access to the depth of the atomic kingdom. They were present at the creation of the military secret programs, the development of the government's most sensitive tech, and they were managing the contracts and locations covering these programs. EG&G also played a key role in one of the most compelling UFO stories to come out of the 1960s, something I've talked about at length here on this show, and an event tied to the story of Harold Malgmgrren, presidential adviser to JFK, LBJ, Nixon,

and Ford. I'm of course talking about the bluegill triple prime test that occurred in October of 1962 during the Cuban missile crisis. This was one of the highaltitude nuclear detonations that occurred in the Marshall Islands. And it was unique because there is a lot of documentation leading me to believe that a UFO fell out of the plume, the blast in the air of this test. They were so used to UFOs showing up around nuclear detonations that they called these objects tagalongs. Well, guess

what? It was EG&G crews aboard the planes filming that high alitude nuclear detonation. Given that they were also deeply involved in managing a facility like Sandia Labs, where it was rumored the recovered debris was transferred, it would seem highly probable that EGNG were well aware of the existence of this exotic technology. So I said, "Well, what what am I here to find out?" He said, "Well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down.

I'm looking at sitting on his desk. Round rock, you know." >> So you're looking at like material, anomalous material. >> But but debris or images? No. and handling them. >> Wow, that's amazing. >> I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't they knew it wasn't Russian. They knew it wasn't in those days it was never going to be

Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So, dad said, "Yeah, we called it a tagalong." I'm like, "A tag along?" Like, "Didn't you ask what it was?" and and he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked any questions at that time and they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions >> when I saw this object which I call a tag along. >> That's what you would call them, tag

alongs. Wow. And all of this would of course comport with EG&G's management of the most infamous facility in UFO lore, Area 51. In the early 1960s, EGNG's special projects division based in Las Vegas had been trusted to handle personnel screening, site access, transportation, and daily operations. If you were hired for any black program at Area 51, your official paperwork and pay often had to come through EGNG, even if

you were working for the CIA or Air Force. They essentially became the operational gatekeeper for Groom Lake, running the commuter flights in and out, managing the security badge office, and controlling access lists. If Groom Lake and Area 51 was and still is home to exotic craft, not of this Earth, EG were the ones keeping that technology under lock and key. Which brings us to Bob Lazar. Los Alamos officials told us they had no records of a Robert Lazar ever working there. They were either mistaken

or were lying. A 1982 phone book from the lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians. EG&NG, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S4, also has no records. It's as if someone has made him disappear. Whatever you think of his story, whether it's true, fabricated, or part of a carefully managed leak, it certainly supports EG's foundational role in the UFO story. See, Lazar said that it was EGNG that handled his

background checks and EGNG that flew him on those unmarked Janet flights to S4. He claimed that there were nine alien crafts at S4. Even if you doubt him, the kind of gatekeeping he describes is exactly what EGNG specialized in. Stories that support the idea that EGNG manages large complexes, many of them underground, and that they are directly experimenting on or handling recovered UFOs, have surfaced time and time again. For instance, in 1991, a caller into a

Las Vegas radio show claimed he was hired to run electricity 3,000 ft underground on a certain test site, a job that came through Reynolds Electronics, an EG&G subsidiary. He also said that military personnel were working alongside beings that resembled aliens. And many hardcore UFO researchers have placed EG&G's name alongside Loheed, Boeing, Northrup, Becktell in a roster of private entities working on UFO technology. In 2001, a

being hidden from him. And the meeting happened to take place just outside of EGNG's special projects headquarters in Las Vegas. And in 2023, George Nap was informed by a senior EG&G manager, Alfred O'Donnell, that they had recovered a flying saucer in New Mexico and had a live being that had humanlike features. From the Manhattan Project to Bluegill Triple Prime to Area 51 and beyond, EG&G's fingerprints are everywhere in the UFO story. They don't

just guard the doors. They manage the facilities where the technology is stored, where it's studied, and where the deepest layers of the UFO coverup are kept alive. And as you'll see, it's a pattern that connects directly to what was happening at Cape Canaveral, where Dr. Rogers was working. But before we get back to that conversation, remember for even deeper dives into parts of these interviews that don't make the final cut, check out the American Alchemy magazine on Substack. The mysterious flight disappearance of

Flight 19 that Rogers mentioned earlier. We've got the full story there. So, sign up today. I'm putting the link in the description. Now, back to Roger's core testimony. Anyway, uh because they were operating, they also ran the healthc care clinics and so uh they had a chief doctor and so I had to oversee him. So I I spent a lot of time with him, you know, we we were buddies, got along. He had been there for many, many years. Uh and so he actually knew a lot more about

what was going on than I did. So I I would go and then he he would say, "Hey, uh we've got new operations here, a new operation here, new operation here. I'm going to uh send my escort with you and that way you can take take a look at what we're doing." So on this particular day, I went out to the first set of buildings. I went to the second set of buildings. I went to the third set of Well, we were only going to look at at three sets. So, while we'd gone into the clean room and uh come out, uh as soon

as because it's a clean room, you have to take your little hair bonnet off. You had to take your gloves off. You had to take an outer uh jacket like a lab coat off. And then you had to take the booties off of your shoes. Well, he had done it so many times that he said, "Okay, see you, doc." Boom, boom, boom. And and he was out of there. So I was taking just a little bit of extra time. So maybe one or two minutes uh was all that separated the uh EG&G escort for uh

leaving the building from me leaving the building. I thought well as I uh left that area I went through this set of double doors and there was a major that was standing there and he immediately recognized me as the flight surgeon. But there were so many people that I did physicals on that, you know, I couldn't remember everybody. So I didn't even uh really recognize him. But he uh was smiling real big and he said, "I've got

something to show you even you have never seen." >> Now then I I believe the reason he said that was because with the EG&G contract, I went to probably 80% of the buildings on Cape Canaveral. the people in a specific work site for they could go to that building and then they left, but they couldn't go to any the other buildings. That way we we didn't have crosscontamination of people learning things that that they had no

need to know. So, uh, he knew I I went all over the cape, you know, on top of everything else. U for a lot of the different sections you had to have um uh uh ID cards. So at the time I probably had like 12 different ID cards. He had one. So uh but you know he was anxious to show me something. So I he said I got to show you this. So I said okay well show it to

me and you know let's get on with it. I >> you think he's trying to impress you? Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> What What day is this? Do you know the >> Um, no. I would say it was in like April or May. It wasn't It was a hot day, but it wasn't uh quite fully summer. >> Was it was it midday towards the end of the day? >> Uh, it was probably, I would guess, about 1 or 2:00 in the afternoon. >> So, uh, I'm anxious to get back to my

clinic. uh our uh clinic would close at 4:00 to 4:30 and so anything that had gone on while I was gone I would have to deal with when I got back. So I was interested in in getting back. Well, he took me inside uh this office that was uh there and you know that didn't seem unusual. There was there was a door and then there were uh two or three windows there and they all had louvered blinds on them. But as soon as he took me

inside there, he shut the door and locked it. And then he closed the louvered blinds for the door. And then he closed the louver blinds for all of these windows. So I'm thinking, what's he what's he doing? You know, this is uh kind of strange. Well, he sat down at his computer console and so he turned it on and he turned on his um video apparatus, you know, computer screen. Um, and so I'm I'm just sort of sitting

there talking, but he he's talking kind of excited. So, I'm I'm mainly just listening, you know, okay, this this guy's excited about something, you know, whatever. So, um, when the screen f finally came up, he did something, you know, to sort of fine-tune it, I guess, or something. And then all of a sudden, he said, "Sit down here." So, he moved to the seat next to his chair, and I sat down in his chair. And when I sat down

in his chair, I looked at his screen, and I was totally shocked. It was a closed circuit television feed and it it had no uh identification of location where it was uh coming from the time of day it was uh anything about it. The the screen was completely clean. All I could see was this closed circuit >> How do you know it was a closed circuit

>> Because that's what it looked like. >> um you know I I I'd seen dozens and dozens of them and you know here here's another one and it it was just like all of the others there. There was nothing special about it except for what was on the screen. So when when I looked at it, there were two guys over uh to the right lower hand and uh they looked like engineer types to me because

they had on lab coats. And >> this is in the frame on the screen. >> In the frame on on the screen. >> Well, over to the right there were three guys and um they had um Tyveck suits I would call them now. And uh they were standing there talking and right in between them there's a saucer. I I would say it's a flying saucer but it wasn't flying yet. But there's a saucer 20 ft across. It was sort of like a modified

egg. It the surface was completely smooth. There were no rivets, uh, no seams, no no windows, uh, nothing that I could see. Um, >> do you know what color it was? >> Oh, it was pearly white. >> Pearly white. And was it an egg or was it a saucer? >> Well, it was a saucer that was shaped, you know, an an egg is a little offc center. If you could modify the egg to where it wasn't offc center, that's sort

of what it would look like. >> So it was like Yeah, I can totally picture. So it's like a a pancake or something with some uh >> Yeah, a really thick pancake. >> Yes. With some some concave ends or whatever. Yeah. Interesting. >> Um now then, um there were because this was pearly white, I mean, you couldn't see anything else on it. Uh there were black rectangles that had been I assume painted onto the vehicle. So uh along

the beam uh about 60% of the spacecraft was above and 40% below. But it had this beam that went across. From the 1230 to 230 point, there was a horizontal rectangle that was uh pure black. And then from the 3:30 to 5:30 it was pure black. And then as I saw motion later I could tell that at 6:30 to 8:30 uh there was a horizontal rectangle that was

black and another one at the 9:30 to 11:30. So along the beam uh these four um covered u most of the area. Now then at what I would call the 3:00 position, there was a a vertical rectangle. And um I could barely see something um at the 6:00 position, but as I saw it moving later, I could tell that uh there there was the same rectangle at 3:00, 6:00,

and 9:00. Uh aside from that, it was uh just uh pearly white. Uh I immediately thought, you know, this is a test bed program. Uh you know, this is an experimental vehicle and uh they've had to paint the rectangles so that they could watch the motion. Well, at the 12:00 position, um, there was something that I could

sort of see, but not really see. But then later on, it rotated uh clockwise and and when I saw it, it was clear as day. It said US Air Force and then just above that was an Air Force flight insignia. >> And it so the craft rotated. How did it rotate? Well, um it was it was initially uh on the floor >> and then all of a sudden it just lifted off just light as a feather. >> Uh if I had not been watching it, I

might not have even seen it. It was such smooth motion. So now all of a sudden it's it's floating three feet up. Well, uh, the nose of it started to, it didn't have a nose, but what I'm identifying as the 12:00 position begin to rotate clockwise and went one full circle 360°. Then it paused for a few moments and then it rotated back 360 degrees the

other way so that it was in exactly the same place it had started. But this had given me a a a complete view of the entire craft. And um you know if it did not have the black markings, it didn't have the uh US Air Force on it or the um Air Force insignia. It was so pearly white that even if it had rotated, I don't know that I could have detected the motion. Uh, so with those rectangles

on there and the markings, I could see the rotation. >> And you saw US Air Force >> and I saw US Air Force on it. >> And so these two guys in the room, what are they doing? >> Well, everybody left before they uh initiated action. I I should have said that, but this sort of like uh warning beacon went off and tells everybody, "Okay, get out of the way. We're about to do this." >> So, it's like some sort of test or >> Oh, yes. that I absolutely believe that

this was the test of a prototype um uh flying saucer and uh I believe it was probably owned by a defense contractor and was not part of the US Air Force inventory. >> Do you have any sense of which defense contractor might have owned it or >> There was nothing that that gave me a clue. So, whatever I came up with would uh be speculation on my part,

>> but like I don't know, maybe EG&G given >> Oh, no. No, it wouldn't have been EGNG. >> Um, it would have been something like uh or Northrup Northrup. >> Got it. >> Um, Rathon >> Rathon. I that would have been a little bit of a big thing for Rathon by themselves, but they could have certainly been in partnership with the Um, you know, Martin Marietta at the time, this is 92, uh, Loheed and Martin

Marietta had not joined into Loheed Martin yet. So, in 95 they did that. But somebody owns this thing and it's and I did not believe it's the US Air Force. um every time you know when we wanted to have the F-17 uh we didn't start off with the F-17 back in the 70s we started with what's called the have blue system and so it was a primitive attempt to try to show that we could do this once we had the

have blue system working and functioning then the Air Force said okay we're going to give a contract. Um, we want want you to build this many F-17s. And so they modified it and improved it and then made the uh actual F-17 and then the Air Force paid them for it and it went into the Air Force inventory. So at that point the Air Force owned it. But uh

when it was uh have blue and it was the preliminary designs, the US Air Force did not own that even though it had US Air Force markings. It it was uh owned by uh Lockheed Skunk Works. And so you're you're looking at this craft. Do you have any sense of outside of the US Air Force insignia on it? Um whether it is extraterrestrial or not from here or whether it is from here. >> Uh when I saw this thing, I looked over

at the guy and I said, "Who would design something like that?" And he said, "I can't tell you." But then when I said, why would we build it in a design like this?" This is exactly what he did. He looked at me and went, "We got it from what that means. >> But that that was exactly what he said. We got it from them.

>> Now, then one of the characteristics of this thing was that as soon as it became activated, there were electromagnetic across the surface of the vehicle. But I could not detect any sort of structure for what was producing those signals. You know, um if if you see a a little patch on the side of an aircraft, you can say, "Oh, well, either that's an

uh marker." Um you know these days we we even have uh radars that are uh having uh a very small location but there was nothing like that. Uh this thing was >> nothing to generate the electromagnetic >> It was pearly white. Uh, >> how could you even see electromagnetic anomalies around the craft just through >> Well, first of all, I also heard them, but it was like little sparks just like

this, like >> like static discharge. >> Static discharges. And And so it was going on all over, but >> it was if the vehicle itself was charged up or something. >> Yes. The the vehicle appeared to be making the electrical discharges. Were there any transformers or power sources? >> Well, at the top of the um craft there was a pole and going up from the pole there were three um lines that um

impressed me as umbilicals. >> So they they may have been feeding electricity to it. They may have been um feeding electrical controls, whatever. Now then that's one of the reasons that I immediately thought that um it was a contractor model be because you can't fly in in air or space with umbilicals tied to your craft. So um I felt like

that what this indicated to me was that on the inside they did not have sufficient power source, control mechanism, anything and so through the umbilicals they were having to feed this information into uh the vehicle uh to make it function properly. So if it was a more mature uh platform, it should have had all of these things internal to the spacecraft without

having to have umbilicals feeding into it to pro provide a power and information or whatever else it was. >> Did you get any other context? Did you say where are we where's this video porting into or what do you mean we got it from them? Who are they? Well, the the thing is uh by this time I had watched it levitate, >> rotate 360, rotate counterclockwise 360. It had moved left and right, forward and >> Really? It move left and right. Did it

move smoothly or >> Oh. Oh, yeah. Very smoothly. It's just like, you know, um if you're playing a video game for the first time and and you've got an aircraft and you you want to try out the controls to make sure it works, right? >> Was it enveloped in any sort of bubble or something? A lot of people say that that it's >> the um these electromagnetic discharges were audible. you could hear them um and

you could see them, but it it was sort of like there was an cover on it. Um like a almost like a plasma shield. >> That had formed on it. Now um when I think of it moving, if it was moving according to the sheer

electromagnetic forces for for it to rise up, those forces should have been aimed down. >> Um that's not what happened. When when I saw it initially lift off the ground, um there there were maybe three or four electromagnetic signals generated each >> Little just static sparky thing. >> But the thing is they were totally random. Uh there wasn't anything, you

know, if you want it to move this way, you know, there's a bunch of them over um it it was moving um you know when when it was moving back and forth sometimes uh like when it was moving backward I don't believe there were any electromagnetic discharges on that end of the craft and I don't think there were really any on the opposite end. It was more across the top and bottom surface of of the vehicle. So um

that caused me to immediately believe the electromagnetic discharges are there but the electromagnetic discharges are not what is moving this thing. >> Do you have a sense of what might have been moving the thing? >> Um it it had to be a force that I was unfamiliar with. >> Fascinating. Okay. So when this guy next to you is saying it came from them. >> Yeah. Do you get any more context on

>> No. Uh, and here's why. Um, in in like the next few seconds, the three the 12:00 position rose to a 45 degree >> Now then, >> that's almost like the Commander David Fraver thing where it's like it goes boop, you know? >> Yes. Now then, I flew helicopters and I flew uh F-16s. >> Mhm. Um, no vehicle I have ever known of

could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack without moving. >> Uh, a helicopter will get a 45 degree angle of attack, no problem. But as soon as you do that, you're going to have the force vector um point forward and so the rotor is going to move the opposite direction. >> Yep. Um, so there's no vehicle that I know of that could obtain that 45° angle of attack, but just then

there was a knock on the window. >> So, uh, somebody said, "Hey, what's going on in there that the doors are locked?" Well, man, this guy panics. He shuts off the computer and the console. He looks at me and says, "Don't tell anyone I showed you this." You know, I'm thinking, "You just showed me a flying saucer. Who am I going to tell it to?" So, uh, he goes over and he unlocks the door and this lieutenant colonel came in and we were both majors, so he outranks us. And then there were

two other guys. I think they were captains. And and so the lieutenant colonel uh comes in and says, "What's going on in here? What are you guys up to?" And so this major >> is the room just like dedicated to like feeding into wherever this UFO is located or >> Well, it it's it's a com computer a set of computer consoles. There were four people. There were four computer It didn't look any different from any

other four. >> Were you in the room alone with the one guy? I I was alone with him for a total of maybe 15 minutes. Yep. Yep. >> But as soon as uh they knocked on the door and opened it, now there's five of us in there. >> Before we get into that, one final question. You have any sense on the location of the craft? You know where you're feeding into in this? >> No. Um >> if I were to guess, the Lockheed Skunk Works would be one of the tops of the

>> Sure. Uh, area 51 would be at the top of the list. >> Um, uh, I I would think, uh, Wright Patterson would be at the top of the list. Usual suspects. >> It could be a different location on Cape Canaveral that I don't know about. Um, uh, could have been at the Dougway proving grounds or TLI out there. >> Uh, you know, I have no idea where it is. But it g also gave me uh no

indications where it was. >> Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Um. Wow. Uh, okay. So, you you everybody storms into the room all of a sudden. So, who's in the room at this point? It's you. >> So, so me. >> The major that showed it to me, a lieutenant colonel, and I believe it was two captains. So the major says, "Well, I had this skin lesion that I thought might be cancerous, so I just wanted to show it to the doc, and that's why I closed the door for my privacy."

Well, now everybody turns and looks at me, and I'm sitting there. I just saw a flying saucer. >> I mean, this is this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen at this point, but my mind is racing. If there had been any degree of classification that was indicated on that video, I would have had to immediately report this guy because >> if if that had showed classified and he

showed it to me in an improper fashion, >> uh I I'm reporting him, but it didn't say classified. >> So, I'm looking at him and then I'm also thinking, well, this guy couldn't have found out about it unless somebody showed him. M. >> Now, if this lieutenant colonel showed him and I reported, then I'm also going to have to report the lieutenant >> I'm going to have to go up their chain of command. I'm going to have to go to his commander and say, "They showed me a flying saucer video." >> Now, then if they came back in here and

said, "Well, put it up on the screen." And nobody could find it. Nobody could find it. Then my story would make me look like an idiot. Uh and um uh uh not only that, but when I got back to um my clinic, I would have to go to my commander and say, "Uh, colonel, sir, sorry about that, but um I just offline saucer and I reported to security and to the chain of command. Um the the general

is probably going to hear about it and then it's probably going to blossom from um with all of the people that are going to hear about this flying saucer. So, I'm sitting there thinking, you know, this is a career decision for me. So, um I just said it wasn't cancer. Everything's fine. I got up and left and and and Wow. >> and I booked it out of there. I got in my car. >> Thinking on your feet. I I drove uh 30

minutes down to Patrick and I'm thinking this whole time and you know I have uh pilots and astronauts talk about things they have seen that they failed to report. >> Well, as I'm driving down Highway A1A, I'm sitting there thinking, man, I'm going to join them. I I am not going to report this thing. >> So, what Yeah. What makes you even higher conviction that that's the right thing to do? So obviously you don't want

some big bureaucratic blow up. You don't want this guy to get in trouble maybe because he was just trying to impress you, but you also >> you don't want to get like, you know, kind of drugged through the mud about like what you saw, interrogated and that sort of thing. >> If if I went back and said I saw a flying saucer, I have no idea what it would have done to my career. M so you know in 1992 you just didn't report flying saucers. It does it doesn't matter what you see. You can talk about it in the debrief but but when you write

the debrief you're not going to put that in there. Did you get the vibe that the lieutenant colonel or, you know, the captain had any sense of, you know, what that room might be feeding into as far as footage of this uh, you know, UFO? Since the computer screen was off, when they came in, I have no knowledge then or now whether or not they had seen that >> right? uh they might have seen it 30

minutes earlier and shown it to the >> I don't know. >> Does any part of you think that this could have been some sort of elaborate if so, it was one of the most random things ever, >> Because that was the only time I ever went to that building. >> Yeah. Uh, if I had um been a little bit quicker in taking off my um hair bonnet, my gloves, my um lab coat, and my

booties and walked out at the same time as my escort, I don't think that guy would have even broached this. It >> never would have happened. >> Yeah. If I'm by myself, he mentions it. But if I'm with an EG escorts, I don't I don't think he would bring it up in any way, shape, or form. >> What do you think his incentive was to Cuz it's like he doesn't he didn't have a prior relationship with you, right? He he didn't know who you were essentially. >> He he knew who I was. I might have done

his physical uh a year and a half before. Okay. >> But um >> But you guys weren't close friends. >> No. Well, it's it's like when you're an ER doctor. >> Uhhuh. uh and you're you're busy all day >> So, you probably knew everybody. >> You you you see the people, but there are times that if if you're really busy, someone says, "Um, what about the heart attack guy?" Well, do you mean the first one or the second one? >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> Uh and then, you know, 6 months later,

somebody comes up to you in Walmart says, "Hey, my shoulder's doing better." Okay. Yeah. >> You know, I don't know who that person is, but uh you took care of my shoulder. Remember, you gave me an injection. >> Yeah. So, do you have >> Oh, well, yeah. I I'm glad it feels better. It's It's doing better now. Yeah. It's really doing good. Okay. >> So, all a lot of these people probably have asymmetric relationships with you. Like, they're very grateful to you. And then to you, it's like another number,

you know, one of one of a thousand or whatever. So, so this guy, what do you have you thought of what his motives might have been as far as showing you this, you know, camera feed? let's think about human basic nature. M uh somebody flips uh a pop bottle and it lands exactly on top and uh doesn't break and it doesn't fall over and they say, "Wow, look what

I did." Someone walking by, they say, "Hey, look what I did with the pop bottle." You know, uh we we as humans like to share things. Um, there have been, uh, plenty of other times that when when something happens, they say, "Hey, hey, doc. Um, I I know you're not supposed to watch this, but uh I know you work on the space shuttle, so that's okay." And so, you know, when I was on the submarine, uh, they took me into the sonar room.

>> That's a great example. Yeah. Um, they were not supposed to take me into the sonar room >> or let you drive the submarine >> or or drive the submarine, but we're we're on a cruise and they they said, "Hey, doc, we're not really supposed to show you this, but uh we want you to see how good our sonar is." And so they took me into the sonar room and showed stuff. Well, they weren't really supposed to do that, but it's not like I'm going to go tell anybody what their sonar stuff is. >> So, you think he was trying to impress >> Oh, he he was obviously trying to impress you. And do you think on some

level, you know, maybe he wasn't supposed to know about this footage to begin with because he was just a major, right? And so, >> well, it it it a lot of times you could be a tech sergeant >> uh enlisted, but you have a reason to know what's going on. And so that tech sergeant is read into a program, whereas the major is not. M >> so the major may say hey what was that thing you were working

with and the text sergeant says sorry sir uh can't tell you and and off he >> so the point is seniority doesn't necessitate you know more information in all these cases especially I've you know >> it's very hard to um shape the contours of you know some covert UFO program but I've heard this many times of people who are superior in rank not being aware of the program and then middle manager types, you know, being in charge in many >> for security. There's two things that you need.

>> One of them is a sufficient uh that you have been personally granted and the other one is it doesn't matter what your classification is. If you don't have a need to know, you're not supposed to know that. >> Did you ever see that guy again? Who the >> I I never saw that guy again and I assure you I never went back to that >> Wow. And since then have you thought about you know I think EG&G is an interesting vector you know they came out of MIT Doc Edertton you know I think

um they formalized as a company in in like the 50s or so come out of the kind of atomic era and are responsible for a lot of interesting kind of you know deep black work for the for the US government. Have you thought about them at all? Because you know another good example is Bob Lazar in you know the8s was you know supposedly stationed at Area 51 S4. He gets a job through Edward Teller, but he specifically gets a job with EGNG. And EG pops up elsewhere. In

1997, you have Admiral Thomas Wilson who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs who is, you know, under his purview is all, you know, technical capabilities of, you know, US military. And he's meeting with Dr. Eric Davis and they're in the EGNG parking lot and he's he's he's expressing extreme frustration that he doesn't have oversight over these sort of UFO programs. So, do you think EGNG might play a part in UFO? >> EG is all over the military.

>> Um for me to guess which contractor had the president on which project, um I couldn't know. But EG&G had their fingerprints all over uh Cape Canaveral. Um they they were the prime contractor. Um everybody uh functioned with EG&G regardless of uh the other contractors uh and what they were doing on the Cape.

>> That's so fascinating. Yeah. And they were interested also in psychic research. They were doing some really out there stuff on the kind of psionic psychic parasychology side and then also on the exotic propulsion side. They were also in charge of atomic testing. And if you think about, you know, where UFOs show up, they show up around, you know, sensitive nuclear sites. Um, one example is I interviewed a guy named Harold Malgm. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was a presidential adviser for JFK, Nixon, uh, Kennedy, and

Ford. and um or sorry he was a he was a presidential adviser for JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford. And um he was in charge of costing these sort of um you know uh uh ICBM defense systems uh for for uh uh basically taking out Russian ICBMs. And um it was this sort of nuclear detonation combined with this X-ray projection that would take out sort of anything in its vicinity. and EGNG was responsible for getting the footage of

these atomic tests. And so uh you know I found that to be very fascinating that that they even they were were involved back then and uh you know that the literally the the optical footage around the most sensitive atomic tests where especially if you know um uh nuclear detonation is taking out all the surrounding electronics with an you know an EMP. Um you know the the optical footage is going to be really significant especially for spotting anomalous things like UFOs. So I often think maybe EGNG plays this really

important role. >> Well, on Cape Canaveral uh it it was this big large facility uh just to get into Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. You had to have a clearance and a need to know. So we would have people like three star generals that are on vacation in Florida drive up and say, "Hey, I want to come on and take a look at the stuff." And and so the uh enlisted uh guard at the

gate says, "I'm sorry, sir, but uh you do not have authorization to enter this facility." And they would sometimes argue with them, but guess what? The uh security guard always won. Um, well, there were lots of other things on Cape Canaveral that weren't exactly directly related to the space program, >> but once you put it on Cape Canaveral, it has a very high level of secrecy.

And if anybody asks uh you know it could I I'm not even going to use uh a subject as an example but it could be for project X. >> Now then if you put project X in New Mexico they're going to wonder what it >> If you put project X on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station they can always say oh well it's just related to the space So, uh, we had other projects

that, uh, were on Cape Canaveral, but any anytime someone says Cape Canaveral, they say, "Oh, well, it's is a space >> Well, maybe, maybe not. But there there were other uh kinds of things that that we had operating that weren't exactly space program related. >> Interesting. Some more kind of exotic science or something. Okay. Well, I could tell you uh you might know a thing or two more than what you're saying, but

I would hope that I knew a few more things than what I say because I shouldn't be talking about everything. >> Yeah. No, for sure. So, um what made you want to come out? So, it's been, you know, what, almost 25 years. um you know since since that event um and you you came out um you know was it a couple months ago now or >> um yeah um I I retired from the Department of Defense on the 30th of >> and and so on

>> Yes. Thank you. >> Uh I still haven't gotten all my pay straight. So, uh, if anyone in the pay department is listening, ma, make sure I get my retirement pay straightened out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he he won't do any more interviews if you just pay him now. I'm just kidding. >> Yeah. I I don't want to link those two things up. >> I'm joking. Extort. on on the 4th of uh Josh Boswell came out with uh an

interview uh from the UK Daily Mail and then uh Ty Roberts came out with one for um both the International UFO bureau and also for um Total Disclosure. He's part of both of those. Um, you know, I I need to say that uh I am on the board for the International UFO Bureau. Uh I'm from Oklahoma, so guess what? It it's

headquartered in Oklahoma City. So So that comes out very handy. >> Well, were were you into UFOs before the sighting at all or before before this, you know, security camera sighting? you have to go back to 1969, I believe it was. And when when I read um Chariots of the Gods by Eric von Donakin, I was >> I I was hooked for life. And u my wife was even more hooked than than I was. So

uh she she has always been fascinated with all of this. >> Would you talk about it on the base with people? Would you, you know, express interest in UFOs? Um, we would sometimes talk about um things of that sort even though even uh if someone walked into the room and said, "What were you just talking about?" We would have said, "Uh, >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, and you don't think you were kind of psychologically profiled and tracked and

you were like, they were like, "You know what, Doc Rogers, he loves the UFO thing and then you know they they try to show you a thing to corroborate your belief or something." Um, I had no idea I was going to that building that day. >> Um, my EGNG escort knew I was going to uh that building that day, but um >> Yeah. So, could it have been this EG coordinated Yeah. >> sign up or something? But he he would

have had to have done something more to make sure that he did not walk out at the same time I did >> in order for that major to speak with me >> because that major knew me as a flight surgeon, but he would not have known the escort as an EGNG guy. And if we had walked out at the same time, I don't think he would have brought anything to my attention. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also it is it is a good question to what end? Like what do they

what do they want from that? You know, it's uh wow. Okay. So So yeah, >> you know the average person they look up in the sky, they think they see a UFO, they take their camera. Um their family comes home. What are they going to do with their family? They're they're going to they're going to show it to everybody they know. That's what we as humans tend to do. And wanting to show something unusual to other people is pretty common.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Often AAM's razor on a lot of these things is it's just the human aspects of it and like people talk more than they should. They want to impress other people more than they should. And you know it's the human fallibility explains way more than uh you know people want some sort of you know supercoordinated SCOP or whatever and that's just often not the case. Um so okay so so you know two decades plus go by um you retire and what makes you

want to want to come and and speak out about this this? First of all, everything changed in 2017 >> when the New York Times article came out and I saw the videos, um, you know, having known pilots for so many years, >> uh, it wasn't just what they were looking at. Uh, even if I had not seen what they were looking at, when I heard the tone of the voices of these pilots

as they're talking back and forth to each other like, "Wow, did you see They're not watching anything ordinary. >> Uh, I I would recognize from their voice, oh my goodness, they are seeing something they have never seen in their >> Because you've probably heard audio, tons of audio from pilots. >> Well, I've flown with pilots. So, you know, if if we're in a formation and and all of a sudden um you know, some strange things happen, you know, we we talk about it. Uh one time uh

>> Did you have you ever seen a UFO in the air with any pilots or >> No, I haven't. >> Uh but as an example of uh something that happens, uh I was uh in a Blackhawk >> Mhm. uh flying in Germany and we were uh flying low level which meant that as we came over the hill we were supposed to be within 25 ft above ground level AGL and so we had come over this hill and was going down into the uh valley and

then there was a hill on the other side and this was the last hill uh before you get to the Ry River Valley and uh just on the other side there was an air defense artillery battery. Well, this F4 Phantom that was um um using anti-raar uh missiles, harm missiles, and was uh performing uh this kind of stuff was not supposed to be in this airspace. But he

came screaming down this valley at probably 400 knots. Well, we're just coming down and he flies between us and the ground and then he uh books it up into there cuz he he knew, man, we he just nearly died. Well, the problem is we just nearly died, too. His uh jet wash hit us and blew us up and rotated us. And so now we're across the valley and we are still getting uh a

downward movement um because of the pressure that his aircraft made. Well, on this side the hill is coming up. So we deviate to try to gain as much air as possible. So we can't go straight, we go right into the mountain. So So we bank as as hard as we can. And when we get up to right here, there was a road. And so they have 100 foot high trees there, but

where the road was, it was clear. And so we um passed that road at probably about 5t AGL. Uh uh if there was a car, we would have hit it. But uh the trees are coming up on both sides. And so we went between the trees climbing up. Jesus, we nearly died because of what that F4 pilot had done. Now then, as soon as we get up, I I'll include this cuz it's funny from my standpoint. Uh, as as soon

as we we climbed, we were not staying lowle anymore. We were we were putting some air under us. And I made the comment, "Uh, gentlemen, I want you to know my flight suit is dry." And the the crew chief said, "Well, doc, I sure wish I could say it. uh he he had voided his bladder. Uh but the thing is as soon as we got back to the base, we're telling everybody this story. Well, it didn't involve anybody

else. There was really nothing to do, but it was an interesting story, so we were telling it. >> So that Yeah, that that that sounds like a close call. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's been several times that God was looking out for me or we wouldn't have made it. Yeah. Wow. That that's fascinating. And so, okay, so you so 25 years later, you see this article come out in the New York Times. You see three Pentagon videos getting, you know, kind of released uh that are unidentified um by by definition.

>> And that sort of emboldens you to start to think about maybe >> at that time I spoke to a a gentleman that I respect very greatly. I don't want to mention his name, but uh if I mention his name, boy, would you know who he was. >> But I had Why don't you want to mention >> I had you know, I'm I'm getting deemed from people all over the place since I came out. I'm not going to dump on somebody

>> Okay? you know. Um, uh, in anyway, uh, I talked to him for quite a while and then the the real impetus was when David Grush testified. >> And he gave all of this expert testimony and then said, >> I know that we have reverse engineered I just don't have anyone who will come out and and say it. >> Yeah. in this setting. Well, um, as as

uh I I watched the video multiple times, I thought uh you know, I've I've got a 6:00 you know, he he said, "No one's come out and and um told their story." Well, if I come out, you know, uh, David, uh, is exposed because no one will say that they saw a reverse engineered

>> So, you wanted to back him up. So, um, you know, I can't confirm all of the other stuff he did, but when and then, uh, some of the government officials said, "We have never had a craft like that in our inventory." And I was sitting there saying, "What are you talking about?" I saw it. >> So, I decided, you know, when I retire, I I'm I'm going to tell my story whether they like it or not. And uh uh next time

David Gush speaks, he can say, "Look, not only do I know that um there are reverse engineered um spacecraft, um Dr. Greg Rogers testified to it." >> Mhm. Well, he he's definitely the tip of the spear, I think, in a lot of people's opinion. you know, he's uh provided, you know, hundreds of pages to the um you know, inspector general of the intelligence community, Thomas Mannheim to the effect that there are covert

reverse engineering programs. He's, you know, on C-SPAN talking to, you know, AOC, who's saying, "Do you have the locations of, you know, where these crafts are being reverse engineered?" And he says, "Yes, I have the addresses and I will give them to you if you just get me into a skiff." So, I I think that's kind of a a bold, you know, uh uh flag to plant, right? If um uh you know, if if if you weren't being honest and I think so, I think I think you know, all of his colleagues say that uh you know,

he's uh beyond reproach and uh you know, all have good things to say about him. He was National Geospatial Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, um Air Force, Space Force, I think maybe just Air Force. I don't know about Space Force actually, but um you know and I've gotten to know him pretty well and I you know he's just autistic attention to detail literally because he's level one autism. So um >> well uh that that would be me as well. >> You have level one autism too. >> Yeah. Along with PTSD.

>> Oh wow. uh in the uh I' I've written a book since um >> I went out to uh contact in the desert because so many people were saying you've got to tell these stories. So um I I've I've written a book. >> What's the book? >> Um to be really ingenious, I decided to call it We Got It from Them. >> And is it about UFOs? It's about UFOs,

but it also contains additional stories from my background be because I I want non-military people to sort of feel like what a military career is composed of. >> And um uh between each section, I I tell a different one of my stories. and be right before the final chapter um I just came right out and said I have

Uh lots and lots of soldiers, sailors, uh air force marines uh have this and too many people see it as something that uh you've got to hide that uh you can't admit what's going on. Um, so I I wanted to spend one whole section trying to convince people, look, if you have PTSD, get help.

>> Uh, here here's here here are things that that can help you. But um you know with with the way people treat if if I have PTSD, someone's going to bring it out in a negative way, so I might as well beat him to the punch and just say, "Look, >> well, good for you." Well, that happened to David Grush. It's crazy. But they um they basically leaked his medical

records from the I guess the the uh police department locally in Virginia. Uh leaked this you know um uh call that he had because you know he one of his friends was murdered right next to him. Another friend committed suicide due to his own PTSD. He was an Afghanistan combat veteran and he had suffered from he talks about it in this interview I do with him where he uh talks about doing you know heart rate variability breath work and other things to to to really you know uh reintegrate. So, I I admire

your courage for uh for talking about this. And I think you're right to to say it prophylactically because I can't tell you how many other whistleblowers I've broken who are, in my opinion, are sort of war heroes. Things they tell me off air, really impressive things they've gone through and then people just go after their core credential. They don't even go after the experience. They go after their, you know, they act like they weren't like this one guy like wasn't a Green Beret or something. It's like crazy. It's like, you know, I know he was. You can have PTSD by um survivors

remorse. Um, there was one guy when I was a very young doctor who was in Vietnam and they were in a firefight and so they were trying to keep suppressive cover down and he had emptied his M16 and so he uh put the next magazine in and he was just hesitating because man they're taking fire from everywhere. Well, his sort of battle buddy guy was still firing next to him and he paused

in instead of immediately returning fire. And while he paused, his best friend got hit and killed. >> And so for the rest of his life, he felt like if I had given suppression fire, >> my buddy wouldn't have died. M >> and so um uh I I talked to him uh a number of times, but his family would say, "You're a hero." And people would do say all this kind of stuff. And yet

in his mind, he wasn't a hero. His buddy died because he hesitated. >> He he was the least thing of of a hero in his own mind that it could be because his buddy had died because he paused before returning fire. And that was something that that guy was going to live with the rest of his life. >> Yeah. I could see that eating away at you more than something having happened to you directly. So it uh >> broadly is the source of your PTSD just

seeing all these people in the medical context or is it >> Well, it's it's all kinds of things. sort of the one thing that sort of stands out as a story was that uh we had an aircraft mishap where um one of our pilots died. And so I had to go and um collect um urine samples from him, uh blood samples from him. Uh, I had to

gather up the rest of his body and try to um get as much of his body together uh as as we could before we shipped it off for an autopsy. And so uh this was out in the field environment. And so I got back to my tent because a bunch of people saw what happened. So I had to counsel all of these other people. So I spent the whole afternoon counseling these people and doing my job as a flight surgeon to prepare for the

aircraft mishap investigation that that was going to come out of this because every time an aircraft crashes, we try to find the details so that we can prevent the next one. So, uh, I finally got back to, um, my GP medium, which is, uh, a general purpose tent. And, uh, as as I sit down on my cot, uh, one of my medics says, um, Captain Rogers, how bad was it? I said, as bad as you can

imagine. Uh, I mean, um, yeah, uh, I picked up parts of his body 130 yards away. And, you know, I and and so I was giving her just a few details. And all of a sudden, she looked and she said, Captain Rogers, I don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like part of his brain is on your boot." Oh. >> So, I looked down and I said, "Oh, yeah, it is." So, I picked up

part of his brain and we had a pot belly stove to keep us warm and I just tossed it into that pot belly stove for me. The very next moment there was a hand on my shoulder and it was my um staff sergeant who is my NCIC and he said, "Come on, doc. Uh we got to get some breakfast, head over to third attack." And I said, "What are you talking about? It's the middle of the night. He said, "No, it's uh 0553. Uh we

we need to get moving." And so he didn't what had happened to me. I didn't realize what I happened. Uh, but I I got up and and went and got some breakfast, went over to the third attack battalion aid station and did all of the stuff I was supposed to do because the the man who died was from third attack. And so, uh, late that day, I finally saw

my medic and I said, "Hey, do you remember talking to me uh early this morning?" She said, "Oh, oh, yeah." And I said, "Do you remember telling me that part of his brain was on my boot?" And she said, "Yes, sir." I said, "And I took it and I put it in the pot belly stove." And she said, "Yes, sir." And I said, "What did I do then?" And she said, "Well, you just sat there. >> I tried to talk to you, but um you weren't responding, so I I just uh got

back in my sleeping bag and went to sleep." I had lost more more than four hours that I can't account for. >> Jesus, you went into some sort of >> state or something. >> Yeah. And um needless to say, there there have been times that I have relived these issues in my dreams. >> And and I've got lots of other stories. >> But they're not all good stories. >> Yeah. Um, and you can't undo

a story like that. >> You know, this was one of my one of my friends. I had done his flight physical two weeks before we went out there. >> And now I'm taking part of his brain and throwing it in a pot belly stove. >> Yeah. So tell me how that's going to get fixed. >> you can't fix that.

>> No, you can't. You can't do anything. >> So I I've got other stories like that that I don't want to go into, but >> I'm sorry, man. Well, we're all here for you. I really appreciate you uh you know, having the courage to come out and uh like you said, you have David Grush's six o'clock position. I think it's very cool. uh that you're doing this and uh and that you're being so open and sharing about your your your PTSD um which is in no way related to, you know, the the your your testimony, which

people should realize, you know, um if you were to blanket discount, you know, people with PTSD, you'd be like discounting half the military and the things that people don't realize it, but we have archaeological evidence that goes all the way back to the Spartans. >> And there was a doctor that had written a treatise back then. And >> uh that treatise >> fit every category of PTSD now. And so

even the ancient Spartans who we think of, they were the greatest fighters. No, they they were humans and they still had PTSD back then. >> Absolutely. I mean, you can't I think you can't be human and and you you see these things, of course, you're going to dissociate somewhat and you're going to, you know, repress these like extreme feelings. And if you don't have those extreme feelings, there's something else kind of off with you around, you know, maybe sociopathy or something. If you if you're very close with a person and you

see something that bad happen to them, you know, especially if you're sensitive, you know, like uh I think Grush is another good example where he's he's a you could tell he's a he's a sensitive guy. Uh you're going to you're going to store a lot, you're going to pick up a lot, and you have to, you know, like the electrostatic discharge on the craft, you need you need to discharge that somehow or it's going to it's going to kind of eat at you. So, um I I admire you being open about all of this. I think it's I think it's awesome and uh nothing at all to be ashamed

about. If anything, it you know, we should be honoring you for having served our country for so long. So, uh appreciate you. >> Well, um I look back at the friends of mine who who died and I think, no, those are the real heroes. M >> um you know sometimes it's very hard for people with survival guilt >> to accept somebody saying something good to him

you know in in one circumstance I was working on a good friend of mine and I could not save his life and he died. Um, >> Yeah, but that's part for the course with your job. You're not going to have 100% success rate and you're going to have cases where no human could ever save them. So, I think you uh you can't be too hard on yourself. And I think just the fact that you were fulfilling

that role, which is one that I think most people would be too too afraid to even, you know, do, I think is a really amazing, you know, testament. And we don't know what happens when you die. So, you know, I always think that sometimes it's like it's such a tragedy when when people pass onto the other side, but they could be they could be they could be watching over you right now and so proud of what you're doing and as a doctor really happy, you know, we don't know. >> As a doctor, I can assure you there are worse things than dying.

>> Yeah. I do not want to have 99% of my body burned and me survive >> in total agony. I do not want my brain to survive my body. I don't want my body to survive my brain. >> Uh I've seen both and they're not >> They're not pretty. Yeah. Know that sounds like uh purgatory. Like you're uh walking around and you know I mean that's that's that's probably the worst. I I agree. Well, I do want you to know I

think you're uh yeah, you did the Lord's work and um you have nothing nothing to be uh you know regretful about. Well, drives everything in the universe. >> You know, um science cannot disprove God because God made science. M >> uh you know one of the things that used to bug me um when when I was a kid and I was reading Genesis uh it said the uh evening and the

morning were the first day and during the first day God said let there be light. Okay so there's the light. Then it said the evening and the morning were the second day. Well, hold a second. There was light in the first day. Where did the light go that it got dark again?

The Earth just turned the opposite direction. Well, the thing is I never had an explanation for that until I learned about the cosmic microwave background. And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand this is exactly what happened at the time of the big bang. The the temperatures in the early universe were so hot that all you had was plasma. You it was so hot that no proton could hook

onto an electron because it would break apart because there was so much energy. So, uh, for 3,000 380,000 there was an orange light that filled the universe and and it was this plasma. But at 380,000 years after the Big Bang, it finally cooled enough that for the first time, the proton could grab an electron

and boom, you've got a hydrogen atom. >> 380,000 years. 380,000 years. >> That's amazing. >> But once proton could grab an electron, so could the other proton and the other proton. And so within a very short time, we went from this plasma field universe >> to um the first atoms that were made and the

universe was completely clear. Yeah, but there was no light because until enough of these protons with the hydrogen atom got together and they started accumulating using electrostatic forces and uh gravity. They finally made a such a big mass of all of these atoms that gravitational

force compressed them and boom, you you have the first generation star. And so light returned to the universe and that's the light of the second day. So you have the light of the big bang and then you have no light until you get this hydrogen formation up until a star and then you get light back. And so it matches with the Bible. I like that. I would say, you know, I believe in God. Um but I would say that our cosmological

models of the universe are just super limited. And so I don't even know if the Big Bang is a thing. And the reason I say that is the James Webb telescope is now picking up all these early galaxies that were far earlier than we ever thought galaxies formed. And basically, if they exist in proportion to what was found in this little section of the universe, um then they might better explain the cosmic microwave background than the actual big bang itself. And so my larger kind of point is like we just

we just need a lot of epistemic humility around cosmological models like I think physics has a scaling problem. So if you have anomalies at low scale, we were talking about you know alternative prop propulsion like the casemir effect or biffield brown like these things that like we don't we can't explain you know simply through general relativity or quantum mechanics. If you have any sort of anomalies at low scale which of course we do because at any given time in history you have anomalies in your physical models of reality and that's then they get updated then it's like

your rocket is one degree off course. And so when you try to scale it to a cosmological model, you have this sort of error propagation and you're like way off. And then you have to come up with placeholders like dark matter, which is this glue which explains gravity, gravity's weakness, or cosmic inflation, which is sort of the expansion of the universe, where if you were to ask a physicist, what fun what fundamental force is represented in cosmic inflation, they wouldn't have an answer for you. They'd say some sort of repulsive form of gravity. they'd say

anti-gravity and so you end up I think in like uh you know this crazy kind of hyperspace like just trying to make the math work to comport with our human very limited epistemology. Um there are all these issues with the cosmological constant. I mean we could go on for for for a long time as far as issues with cosmology. So I think none of that you can't use science to discount God because I mean the the universe is just

so miraculous and the earth is so mira you have the plank's constant you know if it were slightly different you know we wouldn't have an atmosphere right and there's so many examples like that so I don't know what do you think >> well the the single biggest problem is that if you don't have god everything has to happen randomly M >> but the universe isn't random. >> Um do how much do you know about >> Uh I know a little bit about it. Yeah.

and you take a chlorine atom and put it at the 3:00 position, >> the composition is C H 3 Cl. But now then if you take this the chlorine and you put it at the at the 9:00 model instead of the 3:00 model, the chemical formula is exactly the same. But if you shine if you if if you shine polarized light through that.

>> If it's at the 9:00 position, it's going to turn the polarized light to the right. M >> if it's at the if the chlorine is at the 3:00 position, it's going to turn it to the left. >> So, you have a left-handed methyl chloride and a right-handed methyl >> Now, it seems like there shouldn't be a difference, but biologic systems will only function with one of those options. >> Yeah. glucose. There's a there's a left-handed glucose and a right-handed

glucose, but the right-handed glucose is the only glucose that any plant will make, that any animal will consume, that um protoplasm will uh be able to manufacture energy from. So, it's not 50/50. What what is happening is that uh I put this in a book uh years ago uh the case for God. If you take a nickel and you flip it,

50/50 chance it's coming up heads. So it comes up heads. So you flip it again, comes up heads again. So you you say, "Hey, I'm going to Vegas. Uh, I'm going to find um a casino where I can flip a a nickel and uh bet on it. So, you you put $5 down, you flip it, comes up heads, you got $10. You flip it again, you got $20. You flip it again, you got

$40. By the time you flip this thing 20 times and it came up heads every time, the casino is visiting you because you have a nickel that has been fixed. It has been altered. And so it is not a 5050 chance. It's 100% and 0%. And when you look at the kirality throughout the universe, there are all of these multiple multiple multiple times when there should be a

50/50 reaction and it's 100% and 0%. >> And and so you are trying to explain this randomly, you don't have a real good case. If you say there is a God who knows how to fix a nickel so that it comes up heads every Very simple explanation. >> Yeah. And there there are rational explanations basically for God and then

there are rational explanations for pure randomness. And I I think the very fact that our world is so kind of you know this anthropic principle another good example would be water and and ice where normally the the um you know solid version of a molecular structure is heavier uh and and and more dense than uh the liquid version of that structure. And in the case of H2O because hydrogen and oxygen have to happen to when they bond and freeze they form these perfect

crystal lattice structures. They're actually less dense than water. And so you end up basically where with this thing where like ice can float on water. And if that weren't the case, the earth would flood a million times over. So you have this kind of anthropic principle around that plank's constant. The weak electro kind of, you know, you know, that's that's anthropic. All of these things if there were you know the uh gravitational constant if it is actually constant if any of these things were slightly off you know the earth would

not be habitable as as we kind of know it and then you get into physics principles like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where if you you're only measuring you know uh position and momentum one gets fuzzier as the other gets more accurate and that sounds that looks a lot like kind of a computational caching function and so you end up with this model where there's they're really rational ways to actually explain God. You have even like in vogue today is Nick Bostonramm and like you know Elon Musk saying we live in a simulation.

Well, it's like who simulated us like you know God you know you know God is a sort of a you know a placeholder that you know it's it's very hard to know exactly what that is. But um you know for a lot of people who don't have sort of a Gnostic you know felt sense of God but on the other side I I don't I don't I don't know if the other side is more rational is all I'm saying. I think there's like a lot of really interesting >> data points that point you towards you know we live in a you know creative in intelligent universe. >> Um yeah go for it. Um you know when

Albert Einstein created the special theory of relativity people argued with >> and um you know it they argued with him so much between that and general relativity that even though Einstein won a Nobel Prize it wasn't for relativity because too many people still argued about that he won it for the >> electric effect special relativity yeah >> they were not going to give Einstein the credit he needed for relativity.

General relativity was known as a novel curiosity until 1957 and that's when you know guys like now like Kip Thorne will they call it the golden age of general relativity basically post Einstein where he gets resuscitated and you know turned into this you know uh uh modern genius who explains everything kind of cosmologically but before that it was this kind of novel curiosity that was not at all established physics >> it wasn't established physics but was in

the Bible. >> General relativity. >> General relativity. Uh >> so you've got this >> Jesus said that with God a thousand years is a day and a thous and a day is a thousand years. >> Uh no I think it's Peter. Sorry. But at the time that was an element of belief. >> They had no reason to believe it but they were going to believe it. Now then when you take scientists today, I'm not one of them, but there are scientists

who can calculate for 24 hours to pass on Earth, an astronaut would have to be traveling at this speed close to the speed of light >> in order for them to see a thousand years and this guy to see 24 hours. It's not a belief anymore. It's an equation. >> Well, another another good example of that is um one of my favorite lines is in the book of Mark and I am uh I'm

going to paraphrase here, but it's something like careful what you measure because what you measure you'll get more of. Yes. And it's this very you know seek and you shall find sort of you know comment and I am really interested in this field of parasychology this idea you know of like where where your attentional sensor is pointed you will receive more of that thing and everybody if you were to pull them and they're open to this somewhat a lot of people high percentage of people will say that empirically that happens in their life that like you know

they think about a thing and then it just pops and they think about a friend and the friend calls them you know that'sort thing. Um, and so I think there's a lot of deep truth to the Bible that again people discount. They say it was, you know, bunch of you know, paranormal magic tricks or something. And I don't think that's right. I think there there are some real there's some deep onlogical truth that it's pointing at. >> Well, there there's truth all over the world as well. M >> you know um when you look at the vdic

>> they're talking about vmanas >> now then at the time those were the strangest things ever but they described like an arrow that when it was shot it would guide itself to through the air until it hit its target. Mhm. >> If you were watching an F-22 uh a MiG 29 >> and they fire heatseeking air-to-air missile.

>> That missile is going to guide itself until it hits its target. >> So this was a description in the Vadic texts thousands of years ago. Or what about the vimmanas which describe literally UFOs with spinning mercury inside which then get later I mean you have a a famous UFO whistleblower named Edgar Fuche claimed to be at Area 51 and he was working on the you know or I think he was uh aware of the TR3A and B series from north of Grman and it

involves spinning mercury and so who knows but I've had in your chair a um Senate staffer for the intelligence community. Uh Kirk McConnell bring this up to me. So, you know, you don't have to trust me, crazy podcaster or whatever. Like, he brought this up both in the context of DLA, this German bell, which is, I think, no longer fictional. We know there was something there. There's literally like a rig that a picture of a rig there. And Nick Cook has done all this interesting investigation into anti-gravity research

mid-century um has gone in there. And so, you know, that DLA probably existed and they're supposed to be spinning Mercury there. And then you have Edgar Fcher saying later in the TR3A and B series you had spinning Mercury. So, and then the Vmanas spinning Mercury. I don't know. you know, you can take some of the um models of so-called birds >> from South America >> and if you show them to uh American grade school kids, they're going to look

at them and say, "Those are airplanes." Why? because they look like airplanes. >> Now then, these things are thousands of years old. Um, why do they look like airplanes? Could it be because they were airplanes? >> Uh, you know, we're not nearly as smart as we think we are. >> I agree. Also, if a cataclysm were to occur, uh, you'd have no idea. It would be so buried. You know, they're talking

about like something happened. I mean, we have very very little record of the dinosaurs and they were wiped out, you know, 66 million years ago. Um, so if you you could have a civilization, you know, it you could have this sort of scurve thing with civilizational cycles and cataclysms and um it' be it'd be hard to know until you first discover the thing. You know, right now civilization is getting older progressively. Every call it 30 or 40 years we find, oh, now we have Gabbecy.

Oh, actually go back to Templey isn't the earliest, you know, megalithic site. So, I just think our our understanding of the past, as you're implying, is extremely limited. And there's actually, you know, all sorts of forbidden archaeology where you have like the antic theorem mechanism, which is a little computer with astronomical alignments found, you know, in the uh I think the Aian or the, you know, >> Yeah. And it's undeniable. >> Yeah. It's undeniable. No, that is a fact. Yeah. So then you get an accumulation of these things and it's

like well maybe our maybe our understanding of our past is just way >> Um so fascinating. So, one one thing I want, you know, getting back to your the core case is it is interesting with a lot of these testimonies where you flip one switch and you could explain what you saw not by them because maybe that was just told to the major and maybe the major related to you, but it could be explained by just a terrestrial al equally exciting but anti-gravity line

of aerospace. And we were talking off air before the show about the Biffield Brown effect and like, you know, exotic propulsion. Do you think that it's possible that what you saw was actually maybe just some extremely exciting human propulsion breakthrough? >> I I think that what I saw was uh human um built. >> Mhm. uh why we would design it that way, I could not prove one way or the other.

But um knowing aerospace as I do because I dealt with rockets, I dealt with the space shuttle, I dealt with F-16s, I dealt with H1 attack helicopters, >> there is nothing that would be advantageous aerodynamically for us to build that. and for somebody to to go off on a crazy tangent and say, "I'm going to build this even though

it's not aerodynamic and uh it doesn't show any um basic advantage over any of our uh current uh >> I think it's a little nuts, too. And for context for the audience, the 80s was really the stealth revolutions. You have the F-17 coming out in the early 80s and then you have the B2 coming out in the late '8s. And obviously the B2 had probably been around for a little bit longer, but like

billions of dollars were being spent on these, you know, programs. And that was really kind of the the state-of-the-art. And it is hard to believe, you know, America did have a flying saucer program proven. Nobody would argue with the Avo car. So the Avro car uh was in the 50s and 60s and it was at right airfield and you had >> but that was a joke. >> It kind of a joke but the point is is that you had a radial gas flowing turbine engine but you had all these issues aerodynamically with with you

>> it couldn't get out of ground effect. That's the same thing that happened with >> It couldn't get out out of ground effect. It had this sort of kanda effect wobbly thing going on. And >> well with with helicopters when we fly uh when when we are moving forward if you go fast enough you will finally leave ground effect and you'll go into translational lift >> and and then you will ascend. But if if you're having trouble with your engine, you want to stay close to the ground

because the force of the rotor wash hitting the ground gives you the equivalent of additional >> until you lose it and you lose ground effect. I do find it interesting that right when right airfield is working on the AVO car they're also sponsoring this conference with the top theoretical you know physics research in the country at chap UNC Chapel Hill University of North Carolina and the guy who was running

University of North Carolina's you know institute of field physics with this guy Bryce Dwit one of the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time um was a guy named Agny Bonson and he had in his diaries um you know that were found years later it was uh the space brothers came to me and said get get me in touch with towns and brown because I I want to build a spaceship and so I wonder you have this avoar project it's kind of a joke it's not really working but you have a dedicated theoretical

physics group uh you know under this guy Josh Goldberg at right airfield um and then they're sponsoring elite you know theoretical work on the subject and then the same guy who's you know basically like uh you know uh uh uh being being a benefactor being being sponsored by right airfield is also hiring towns and brown who probably made all these interesting updates in you know uh the world of you know anti-gravity propulsion then you have to ask yourself the question you know could we make that much progress in in in 20 years and I I don't

know the answer to that um >> well yeah I I with what you just said I always think of pen and teller. >> I I love to watch Pen and Teller >> and one of the things they've they always talk about magic. >> When they say the magic is over here, you know, the magic is really over here. This is where they're wanting you to focus so that you're not paying attention over here. >> So when these companies say, "Look, we

made this thing. Look at how fancy it That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on. >> That's right. Well, that's what I think now is the Avro car was probably a cover for something deeper because all the rumors are that the Roswell craft was taken to right airfield and so you had this yeah kind of you know distraction of like kind of this joke of a thing the Avro car >> um and then you have like more serious stuff going on but I think they used the

Avro car as a front to get specific Nazi scientists like there's this guy Richard Meita who went and worked for the Avroar uh in Canada which is you know before it moved to um right Pat it was at uh in Canada under a guy named John Frost and John Frost who ran the Avrocar project on behalf of I think British Aircraft it was like British Aircraft and CIA were co-running this thing he was going out to recruit all these secret Nazi scientists who had worked under Hans Conler people like you know he went to

try to recruit Victor Shawberger and they end up sort of stealing his work. Um but yeah, meet uh this other guy, Henry Kanda, which the Kanda effect is named after is we know was a consultant um for project Y, which is what you know uh uh the Abracar project turned into. It was Y and Silverbug. So I think they were using it as like a a funnel where it's like this is a joke. We're not making progress. Let's get all these Nazi scientists to work on these things. But I think there was something very vital underneath all of it that was actually happening. And the crazy thing

about your testimony, you're talking about the craft being charged. I've heard that a couple of times. um, this one, uh, firsthand witness who claimed to work on a craft at Wright airfield that was retrieved in the Aztec recovery in 1948 in u March um, uh, in New Mexico. He uh uh he says that the that the the the craft was like hooked up to these like extremely high powered

transformers and it would go translucent when it got powered up. So that's interesting. And then there are a couple of other you know people who say similar things like that like you know a ton of power needs to be sort of mainlined into the craft and so it's probably limited by its by its power source. It's like Towns and Brown was always looking for a power source for his mega volt range electricity. So, you know, and it was always, you know, going to be this kind of nuclear power source like possibly cold fusion, like a low energy nuclear

well, okay, you have all the details to it, but you can't make it. Um, an example that I like to use is the F-22. If we took an F-22 fighter in our day, which is the most advanced air-to-air uh platform that we have, and we take it back to 1914, and we say, "Okay, US engineers, we want the United States to have the best aircraft that'll shoot anything out of

the sky. You can win the war with it and all of this stuff." And then they go look at it and they say, "Why does the skin feel so funny?" Oh, well, that's radar absorbent material. Well, what's radar? Oh, well, it's uh a radio wave that you bounce off uh and according to how long it takes to get back, you can find the range and distance for it. And they say, "Well,

where's the propeller?" Uh, all of our aircraft are made out of wood with the propeller. I don't see any wood and I don't see a propeller. Um, are you sure this thing flies? Even though this is only 100 years of human technology, those 1914 engineers could not begin to understand the F-22, much less rebuild it. M if we can do this in 100 years of

human technology, what would be happen in 10,000 years of nonhuman technology? >> How far behind would we be? You know, uh you know uh Leonardo da Vinci was alive, there were four elements in the universe. water, fire, air, and um what am I thinking? And they believed

those were the four elements. If you asked any scientist at that time, that would be their answer. Now then, if you said, um, uh, what do you think about quantum theory? about? Yeah. Well, atoms uh are are not the smallest things. Uh you can have quarks and uh you you can um >> have gluons. Uh you know, you have to

decide whether whether or not they're going to be bosons or firmians and uh bosons will always have uh a whole number factor of the plank constant. And they're going to say, "What are you talking about?" Mhm. Now then these would be the smartest, most brilliant people and they think they know what physics is all about. >> But they are totally and completely off >> So what do you think these beings are

that have these crafts that fly that maybe gift us well >> their craft? our star is less than five billion years old, but there was another star in our same galaxy that is 6 billion years old and uh the life formation followed a similar pathway to us. their physics is 1 million years ahead

of us. >> And they're going to look at our physics and and say, "Look, they're still fighting with string theory." >> You know, what's wrong with these >> You know, they think to go into space, you have to have a chemical rocket to go in space. You know, no wonder they can't go anywhere. can be nothing more than um, advanced

And we are so proud of everything we've learned, but we were so proud of what we learned in 1850. And we thought we knew a lot in 1850. U, Maxwell hadn't even come out with his laws yet. Um, if you go to 1600, you know, um, >> well, that that's their saying with electromagnetism is we know all the known laws in the universe. Electromagnetism explains it all. We're at the end of history and this was immediately pre max plunk and, you know,

quanta and the whole quantum revolution. >> right out up until we were proven completely wrong. >> Yep. Yeah. Totally. No, it's uh >> I would you always will go do well if you bet against the current physical model of reality. You always do well. You'll always if you bet against the house. If you bet against the Neil deGrasse Tyson's of your time, you will always make money >> because those people are always going to be wrong. It's such hubris to say we are at the end of history and we know everything. It's that's insane. or even

to say that we are just rounding out the final you know margins like you know there the there are little errors that you know we just have to correct for and then we're finished. That's never how it works. It always the next paradigm completely upends our understanding of things. If if you have a really terrible shot with a pistol, >> if you stand 100 yards directly in front of them, the safest place to be is where they're aiming. because they're always going to miss.

>> So you you don't know where they're going to miss, but if you're a lousy shot with a pistol at a 100red yards, you're not going to hit anybody. >> Yep. It's a great way to It's a great way to put it. Yeah. So that's why I think I don't know. I I worry about institutions which have become increasingly close-minded and they used to kind of foster real intellectual heterodoxy and open-mindedness and I think they are they've become increasingly like you know you have to tow the party line and if you don't you

know you're you're out. So I would I would go kind of long individuals and short institutions over the next you know 10 years. I think in many ways we might have a we might be in a sort of meltup in the markets you know just around AI and stuff but ultimately we're you know we're probably in this sort of recession already or bare market and and then the only thing we have a bull market in right now is ideas like the we're in a we're in a crazy kind of idea bull market and so that's that's kind of exciting but

>> but there there can be times when we can't tell the difference between good ideas and bad ideas In 1972 when they were first planning the space shuttle, they uh said, "Well, what happens when it lands in California and we have to get it back to the launch site in Florida?" >> So, they thought, "Well, we could put it on a train and have a special route for that. Well, we could put it on a boat and bring it through the Panama Canal."

Well, there was this one low-level scientist that said, "What if we put it on the back of a 747?" And they said, "Shut up. The the real people are talking here." So, they keep going through all this stuff. And then finally, one of the big guys says, "We could put it on the back of a 747 and fly it back." And they, "What a great idea. That's wonderful." And this guy's "I I I said that four weeks ago, >> but Yeah. Well, no one was listening to

you. We're we're listening to this guy cuz cuz he's big time." Yeah. Well, it's so much of science is social proof and herdlike and you expect it to be the most immune from herdlike thinking. But an example I always like is like you know who the first person who you know discovered that we live in a solar system that revolves around the sun and not the earth is. Do do you know? I would think it was one of the Greek >> So that's that's amazing because most

people would say capernicus you know 16th century pre Galileo you know actually observing it. And in fact it was one of the Greek philosophers this guy Arisarkus. >> Yeah. Well, um, one of these guys, um, was able to take a stick, put it in the ground, and measure, the distance and do the mathematics, and he estimated the uh, entire length around the world

and and he was like within 3%. >> Whoa. Who is this? Uh, I I I don't remember, but um, you know, it's I'm sure you could. >> That's so cool. >> But because he studied the shadow of a stick. You're pretty smart. Yeah. I feel like you're you're pretty self-taught in all these sort of, you know, physics and astronomy. And it's impressive. >> Well, think of that guy. How smart did he have to be? >> Well, that's the thing. It's like I think a lot of you know this sort of

modern version of intelligence is just it's like you have like adornments in a in your hat or something you know little you know a cap in your feather or whatever but but um you you could say a bunch of that makes you sound smart but like so much of real intelligence should just be like childlike thinking about the univer like forgetting all priors and almost being not super socialized so that there's you're not just adhering ering to the fashionable ideas of the time and just really thinking about things in kind of a, you

know, this is an overused term, but like a first principles way, like seeing things for what they are. >> That's a very rare thing. There was there was a a Greek inventor that uh made a a circle a a sphere and had one little spet sticking out one side, one little spet sticking out the other. If you put water in it and heat it, it uh a spinning

uh spinning wheel from uh the steam. It it's essentially a steam engine. >> And everybody thought, "Hey, that's a cute joke." Mhm. Now then, if he had have just taken a chain and hooked that up to a chariot. >> Mhm. As the steam toy goes around, it turns the chain.

All of a sudden, we've got the industrial revolution. Then >> 1800 years earlier >> 18800 years earlier you could have radical breaks and junctures in real it's almost like technology is like timeline hopping or something like if you create something you know I think about this with um >> the steampunk revolution you know where you know it's like uh William Gibson sci-fi novels is like this alternative you know second industrial revolution where we weren't using gas engines and we were just using you know steam or whatever and like there are different I

don't know like the semiconductor that's somewhat arbitrary. What if we had like some sort of biological computation or something? We're programming little like rat neurons and like that's how we were that that's a whole computational tech tree, you know, outside of silicon. And so it is it's so interesting how uh we just get routed in these different and sometimes it's a culde-sac like string theory where it's like I don't think that's going anywhere, you know, we got to figure out something new. >> It's fascinating. Well, as I said, we're never as smart as

we think we are. And every time we have a major breakthrough, when we look on the other side, we say, "Well, now that we did this, we're going to need a couple more major breakthroughs up there because of uh what we see ahead." So um uh e evenstein when when he came up with his miracle year in 1905 he was feeling really good in 1906 but he wasn't feeling so good in uh 1917 when he

couldn't prove his general relativity theory and of all people it would take an enemy of Germany um uh Eddington uh to um do the the work on capturing the deviation of a star around the sun during an eclipse to prove that Albert Einstein was correct. >> Totally. And even then it wasn't fully accepted and he also was a foundational player in quantum mechanics. He really

helped establish it. People don't really give him credit for that part of his work, but he had all sorts of issues with quantum mechanics as this kind of onlogical framework. He would debates with Neil's Boore in the Copenhagen school about what you know this meant and what what entanglement meant and how it was even possible you know even though he was kind of responsible for a lot of early entanglement work EPR you know that's Einstein uh Podulski and Rosen so um >> well what did he get his Nobel Prize in photoelectric effect yeah a photon of

>> he he received his Nobel Prize for a quantum theory. >> Yes. And his general relativity uh never got a Nobel Prize >> and the photoelectric effect even when he discovered it in 1905 hadn't been experimentally proven. It was just a theory. Um and then it was later experimentally proven. >> But um yeah, obviously the photoelectric effect has had you know in some ways I don't know. I'd be curious if somebody were to like, you know, do a do research on this, but whether general relativity

or special relativity has had a greater impact on our reality because the photoelectric effect, you wouldn't have like a TV, right? Like it's like literally just light and its interaction with like metal surfaces and that's pretty key to like everything even a lot of the stuff in quantum mechanics. And then general relativity, you know, that feels to me, again, I'm a stu I'm a physics idiot, but like feels a little more important for like cosmology. And then like I think we're kind of off on a lot of cosmological stuff. So, and it's kind of put a governor on >> propulsion, you know, where it's like,

you know, uh uh the speed of light is just the speed limit. It's the global speed limit. So, >> I wonder if um maybe maybe actually the Nobel Prize committee back then, you know, knew what it was doing or something. Well, um Bose, the mathematician from India, >> uh he was writing really great, um um lectures >> and he sent one to Albert Einstein said, "Nobody's listening to me." And he said, "Well, I'll put my name on it and then

they'll listen." >> And and so, uh you know, Bosson are named after Uh so u uh you know it it's just crazy that this guy that nobody believed from India that no one would pay attention to as soon as Albert Einstein puts his name on it. Oh, you're brilliant. >> Right up until Albert Einstein said, "You're brilliant." You were stupid. >> Right. Yeah. We're we're very uh

mimedic. we we we like what other people like and if they're of high stature then all of a sudden that's this like really important stamp of approval and so >> um yeah well where do you think disclosure is headed? Do you think we'll get some exciting you know uh revelation near term? Do you think it'll stay in this sort of liinal space of some people believing others not or what do you >> I think this simple biggest problem is bureaucratic inertia. M >> it it takes somebody who is really

strong in their beliefs >> to step out from the group of people who are all agreeing how smart they are and and say, "Listen, y'all are smart, but you're you're not smart about this one thing." And so you have to have the other people agree that yes, what you're talking about is true before the the um entire group will finally begin to act

as though it's true. I I believe that we are to a point that realistically we don't need to prove that UAP are real. M >> we have plenty of evidence that UAP are >> But as long as we're still fighting the battle, UAP are real, we're missing the bigger battle, which is what are we going to do with it? >> And so we need to stop fighting over whether it's real because it is real. >> Uh so now we need to figure out what on

earth are we going to do with it. You know, that guy came up. >> What do you think we should do with it? I I I think we need to um release a a large part of the information. Being from the military, I know that uh if I have an advantage, uh o you know, if if I'm flying an F-16 and I have an advantage over another jet, uh I'm I'm not going to tell you what my advantage is. Um, however, there

are so many elements of what UAPs mean to humans, to technology, that I think it is irresponsible to continue to say there's nothing to see here. No, no, we can already see it. Um, when you stand up and say that, you just look stupid. >> Yeah. Uh and then if we accept that we look stupid. >> We need to be moving beyond stupidity

and we need to be making progress. The only way we're going to make progress is to get meaningful disclosure. >> But the people who own the processes are the ones who will determine whether or not the disclosure occurs. Do you think, you know, Bob Lazar, who's reportedly an EG&G employee, not too many years before your sighting, you know, four years, do you think that your story adds corroboration to his stated work at Area 51, reverse engineering a

>> I I would say it does. Now then um his his story is very complex. So I uh don't know which elements I would say this really adds to it and this one doesn't add much to it. The only way I I could really judge that was if I ever uh met him and we had a long discussion just the two of us with nobody listening. >> Yep. Um but uh to a certain extent um one of one of the things I mentioned was

uh if you uh take away the um the oddness to the the corners and the the sections of his craft and smooth it out as I've described with this egg. It would be very much like his sports Uh, now I don't know if they're at all related, but boy, it it would be a lot like it. >> Yeah, it sounds very similar. It sounds

just like a smoother pearly white version, right, >> of it where you don't have this kind of cockpit, but you it just kind of >> Fascinating. Well, if if you uh look at the early uh aircraft that that was used in combat aviation >> and then you look at the smooth surfaces of the F-22 and the F-35, uh you you don't see big fat wings. You

were no radars. They didn't worry about a radar cross-section. >> Uh they they had no idea about that. And even in World War II, um, we we were able to make some progression, but it was easier to just drop a bunch of aluminum pieces and call it window be because it reflects so much of the radar waves and and then we can sneak our airplane in. Stealth was dropping pieces of aluminum from your airplane. Uh, that

was as good as it got at that point. So we continue to make steady progress and uh the only way to really make progress is to give the best uh construction capabilities to the smartest people. I love it. Well, on that note, I guess you brought you brought these really interesting patches. Do you have do you have like maybe one or two favorites that we can just show the audience? I I

think these were really cool. Uh, the Joint Stars Desert Storm is one of my favorites. It's >> this one. >> No, that's the one that we used before Desert Storm. And then >> this one. >> This one. Yeah. So, um, >> that's pretty awesome. Do you want to show that to the the camera? >> In fact, if we hold the two of them together, you'll be be able to see the difference. So, this one shows Saudi Arabia and the sand in the color and it

it says desert storm. >> The original one, if you can hand me that one. >> This one? >> Yeah. This this is the one that that I wore uh during the whole time we were developing it. And so, it showed our aircraft. It sort of gives clues as to what it was, but it it really doesn't tell you what Joint Stars was about. This one shows, hey, we did this in Desert Storm. And uh after Joint Stars

was demonstrated in Desert Storm, we decided we will never go into combat without the synthetic aperture radar that was developed by uh Joystars. >> Very cool. And um and then the finally I wanted to show the audience you have playing cards here which uh yes if you're involved in a in a hostage situation where maybe you're the hostage keeper right of >> that that was that was what we used in back in the Cold War. >> So the Cold War

>> and so these were actual playing cards that you can play cards with. >> Yeah. But um the purpose was that uh we had English and Russian. So if if we wanted to show what a word is in English, they would read it in Russian and it was a means for us to >> So here you have you have medicine and then you have the Russian word for

>> Yeah, I'll let you pronounce the Russian one. you I I can't read that. Then you have you have jeep. Um and then you have the Russian word for jeep. So it's like if you're trying to communicate with them, you can do that through uh you build a rapport >> through with your hostage through these playing cards. Uh some some cold war memorabilia. It's pretty pretty pretty amazing. Well, um Mr. Rogers Greg, uh it's been an absolute honor, man. this is really fun and uh I I really admire

your courage and I appreciate you speaking out not only about your experience but about you know the other things you've faced um as a as a flight surgeon and uh as a director of aerospace medicine uh who is essential to all sorts of operations as evidenced by your various patches but um but also uh to your you know your your core testimony which you know is uh just fascinating and um I think should be added to the the public repository, the public cannon of official sightings. Um,

>> So, um I'm going to speak to him uh later this month on the 19th and we'll do a Zoom call. But I never expected my name and Jesse Marcel's to be associated. Well, it makes sense because Jesse Marcel senior was an Army intelligence officer, but Junior was an Air Force flight surgeon. So, there you go. You're uh you're part of the >> And it's pretty amazing. And and and I think, you know, for for years to come, people will uh remember this testimony.

It's a very important one. And I want to give a huge shout out, by the way, to uh Chris Leto. >> Oh, absolutely. >> So, thank thanks so much, uh Greg. This was an absolute honor. Really appreciate you, man. >> Okay. Well, I appreciate being here. >> All right, cool.