“DMT Opens The Alien Realm!” - Neuroscientist Andrew Gallimore

higher dimensional beautiful objects that kind of morph in front of your Can we show that we're actually interfacing with some kind of intelligence that is non-human? If a lot of people are seeing these architectures outside of their own reality and they're all consistent, that seems like it would be really important. >> If they want to communicate with us, they're going to do it through our >> Do you think that like elite members of society have been systematically accessing these other realms, helping to

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Michaels. Michaels with no egg. I only promote tools I actually use, and Ground News is one of them. Don't miss out on these important stories. Now, let's get back to the show. Andrew Gallamore, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I have been a fan and follower of yours for a long time now. Uh you've written a a couple of great books that I'm aware of, Alien Information Theory, and you were coming out with Death by Astonishment, which is sort of an a title uh is an homage to uh William Burroughs or or Terrence McKenna. And um

I'm just really excited to talk to you because I feel like a lot of the alien stuff dovetales with psychedelics and psychedelic experiences and I think a lot of people use that to sometimes discredit the alien thing as objectively real. I think the psychedelic thing is object is is a really important part of you know our everyday waking epistemology as I'm sure you would agree and so I'm excited to dive into that with you. >> Fabulous. Good to be here, Jesse. In Austin, Texas. >> My first time in Austin

I mean this was kind of the good old days of of of of science when scientists injected new drugs into themselves. >> Yeah. Um so he discovered after injecting it into his um into himself that it was quite clearly very very psychedelic. Um this kind of rush of highly complex geometric imagery that kind of overwhelmed him, seized control of him. Um, so he knew then that this was something special,

something quite different to the drugs that were known at the time, LSD, measculine, psilocybin. Um, this seemed to kind of transcend that and transport you to some alternate reality. So he started injecting with the drug into um people, colleagues basically who worked at the same hospital. Uh and even in those very first studies, it was quite obvious that these individuals were not just being

beings who were kind of performing the work and you know >> analyses and measurements, scanning and all this kind of stuff. And then often there was one like top dog who was kind of in the background but had a very strong presence >> um kind of overseeing or supervising the >> Uh and then they'd often be taken on kind of a tour of this craft or technological place. Um meetings with

highly intelligent, highly advanced nonhuman beings. um and then brought safely back into the normal waking world. Uh and this if you this kind of scenario is precisely what J's abductees or experiences he as he used to call them were kind of reporting. So it didn't escape John Mack's attention and people were asking him, you know, have you heard about DMT because what you're what you're talking about sounds a lot like what people are

reporting um under the influence of DMT. And I think, you know, Rick Strasman also said, you know, if if we removed all references to DMT and in many of the reports from my volunteers, would anyone be able to distinguish them from the reports of alien and abductees? And um I think towards the end, you know, as as John Mack progressed through his abduction career, if you want to put it

reported going to al environments that weren't that didn't seem to be physical. >> Yeah. So places that were had kind of higher dimensional spaces uh beings that were very similar to the types of beings that people encounter uh in DMT. So he he kind of shifted towards a more spiritual or metaphysical or non-physical explanation for these abduction experiences. >> And a little context for the audience,

John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department in the '9s. and he was actually childhood friends with a guy named Bud Hopkins who was documenting a lot of these sort of abduction experiences and he started to take a a deep dive. He was actually friends with um uh uh Thomas [ __ ] who wrote um structure of scientific revolutions and he was like I don't know maybe some of this alien stuff is real and [ __ ] was like yeah this you know basically you should you know try to maintain the null hypothesis for as long as possible but even though you sit on a

respectable perch at Harvard you should actually dive into this. he started to dive into it, he'd started to take it very seriously. He was like, "These people are reporting events that they feel are very re very real. They have no mental health history prior or after." >> Um, and so it's interesting that you say that he sort of um, you know, starts to view them as as more spiritual or taking place in maybe a a realm apart from the the physical. He was also very inspired by Stannislov Grath and holotropic breath work where the the goal is

actually to I think indogenously release DMT or something at the end of the breath work. And so if that's inspired Mac to that extent and then Mack would use that in his practice with a lot of the um the abductees in order for them to recall their experiences. Maybe that adds to your point. But I will say >> that some of these abductees have physical marks and things that and implants and stuff where it's like like do you have an explanation for that? Have you thought of that? >> Yeah. I mean I I think the the line

between the physical and the non-physical is not always clearcut. Right. So it's like you can't really it's hard to get at. There is obviously what we would consider to be a physical aspect, but there also seems to be a very non-physical aspect. And I just don't think we as humans we really understand. I think maybe if we were able to observe this from a higher perspective and kind of an overview um like a bird's eyee view of reality, we it might be obvious what's going on

here. But I just >> I just think it's it's it's useful to be able to distinguish between the physical. It's kind of instructive to distinguish between the physical and the non-physical, but actually sometimes you point out it may be a combination of the physical and the non-physical. And I feel like people like if they were to point to a dividing line where the physical and the non-physical sort of divevested it would be Decart or something in the kind of proverbial you know but uh if you look at Decart like how that divevestature actually occurred

is he was talking about he was doing thought experiments about a demon controlling your entire perceptive epistemology in some almost you know proto like VR headset that could be reality and all you could know is that your own thoughts were were yours or >> And so that's a pretty trippy thought. >> It is. And I I actually that's kind of an interesting point because Grath actually in one of his books he said look if if there are advanced

intelligent beings you know aliens that are kind of non-physical discarnate uh everywhere and nowhere then the way that they would appear to us um would be would be dismissed as hallucination. they would kind of interact with our brain directly. They wouldn't have to kind of materialize so to speak in an in a true quote unquote physical form, but they would interact with us directly with our brain. And I think that's

actually what's going on, whether it's Daycart's demon. Um but I think the when you smoke DMT for example um what I think is happening or the what I've come to believe or lean towards uh the uh an explanation for what's happening is that you have these intelligences that don't have a physical form. They don't have a form that could even be represented in any kind of visual form. These are

completely non-physical discarnate beings. Uh but they DMT somehow gives them access to our neural machinery. Um and so they are I believe directing the visions. I I believe the DMT world to be what I call a directed world. I don't I don't think you're going anywhere. Um I don't think you're peeking through into another world. Um because that's not how perception works. perception works by your brain building this model uh which

is then tested against sensory inputs from the environment. You you never have direct access uh to the so-called external world or the environment. Uh and I and it's the same in the DMT experience. You're not seeing um the DMT world, whatever that might mean. uh you're simply giving access to these intelligent agents, giving them access to your brain. So you don't break through, I always say you don't break through into the DMT world. It's the DMT

world or the intelligences within >> this space that break through into you. >> They have they they seize control. They kind of commandeer this world modeling machinery in your brain. Uh and they direct your visions. Do they have in your opinion and this is maybe a philosophical question >> do these entities have control >> prior to you taking DMT and then you are able to notice it through DMT or are you

like do they take control like when you take DMT? >> Well, I'm going to give the optimistic answer which is to say it's DMT. I mean what DMT does is it generates this very fluid and dynamic state uh of the brain of the cortex this outer layer of the brain that constructs your world model and some very recent neuroiming data actually show that that DMT makes the brain much more sensitive to being

perturbed by external sensory or or other types of input. So it becomes primed if you like um to be commandeer taken over in this way. So I'd like to think that they don't have access in the normal waking state because that's kind of a horrifying thought right. Uh but in the presence of DMT they gain access or that it's a it's your brain is in a much more uh vulnerable or susceptible state

to being commandeered by these intelligences. And that's clearly what happens. people describe this this massive overwhelming rush of information that floods their brain, you know, complex imagery, uh, mathematical imagery, blueprints, and just in completely alien stuff that has no relationship to their normal waking experience. Um, and I think that is kind of the hallmark of them basically

you know, we have control now for the next 5 minutes or so. Um, and and then they they kind of show you what they want to show you, which is sometimes a performance. Um, they kind of they kind of say, "Look at this. Look what we can do." uh and they will show these they will often display these impossible higherdimensional beautiful objects that kind of morph in front of your eyes or they will hold up screens with these

impossibly complex imagery. They will perform beings like elves or harlequins or jokers and jesters and they will kind of they will say look look at this. This is impossible and yet we're doing it. You know they're doing it with your brain. your brain is like the stage >> um that they are using to for this performance. Um and then in other cases it's more serious. There seems to be a some kind of agenda. People often describe like they were waiting for me.

>> Uh they knew they weren't surprised. I was very [ __ ] surprised, but they weren't surprised at all. They had a place ready for me and they slotted me in and they started working. and there was scanning and there were lights flashing and beeping and just they knew exactly what to do in the short time available. Yeah, it's um so this brings up a question of like discernment like if I don't know you harle jesters and you know tricksters and stuff and um you

know on the other hand you know there's things with serious agendas for you. Um, how do you uh go into a trip like this and be able to and and fend for yourself and go in with a specific intention where you're not, you know, the product being used, but you have a specific goal or intention or I don't know, it can be heal very healing for a lot of people. For example, maybe [clears throat] maybe that's the the sort of positive outcome version of this or how do you how do you sort of dictate that and is it is it inherently very risky?

>> You don't dictate it. If you try to dictate it, then you're in trouble because there's no way you cannot dictate it. I mean, that's the thing. >> You have to surrender. >> You have to surrender. I mean, you can go in with intention. >> Um, and people do, people will go in, they will, you know, they might suffer from, I don't know, chronic headaches or depression or something that >> they're seeking a solution to something. >> Uh, and they go in with that intention. And very often they will find that these beings will get to work on them

literally on their brain uh and they will feel their brain being reprogrammed um rewired by these elflike beings or other or insecttoid beings. These are the kind of two of the most um common types of of of being and they will they will >> often achieve great relief from that. you know, their headaches stop happening, you know, or or they feel more positive about life and feel like their their depression has lifted. So, that's certainly possible.

It's not >> it's not like it's um you kind of have to accept that you get what you get. Um but at the end of the day, yes, you kind of do have to accept that you you're not going to be able to control this thing. And if you try, that's I think when bad experiences happen. when you go in there with a sense of self- assured uh arrogance that you know we humans are the top of the the intelligence tree you know that DMT will

obliterate any any kind of >> um this anthropocentric belief that humans are the center of reality and that we are the most intelligent thing and that we've got it all worked out. >> It'll humble you real quick. >> Oh, it'll humble you within seconds. It gives you what you need, not what you want. Often you come in like, you know, >> dabbled a little bit. I don't do much. But um >> and I I did I did Iaska once, so I've never done DMT, but I've done the Iawaska is DMT in some sense. It's a

kind of gnarly version of it. I don't know. I feel like the failure mode for me would have been like the universe showing me that, you know, some sort of like ultimate Fibonacci sequence that like, you know, [snorts] cuz I'm, you know, kind of a truth seeker in that sense. And instead it was like, "No, just walk and carry water. You know, your your your job is like like you're way too grandiose about all this [laughter] stuff. Like shut up. Like your family is all that matters." >> And it was like it was great because of that. Um >> but it was not what I wanted, you know? I wanted I wanted some, you know,

ultimate secret or something. >> Everybody wants the blueprints for the time machine. That's right. [laughter] And they Why don't we get that? Why don't we get the equations for the grand unified theory? Yeah, I think humans we we have this this very human- centered belief that we know what what we need. Uh and and these beings, they have no interest in that. They know kind of they know what's going on and we have we haven't got a clue >> what's going on. >> Um we don't know [ __ ] uh really uh and

that's the most important message that we need to get first of all before we start getting the other messages. I think the first one that we need to take to heart is that yeah, we haven't got a clue what's going on. We don't know [ __ ] Yeah. That we're not we're not even close. We don't even register on the scale of intelligences um that you can encounter within the DMT [snorts] >> I would agree with that. But you are a human who has dared to create kind of an ontology around [laughter] both psychedelics and it's really awesome and

it dubtales with a lot of my instincts where um you have this alien information theory. I want I want to start with that cuz I I love that book and it it um >> it goes into like these this idea that you know these beings could be in some sense sort of simulating our our current reality but it also talks about you know there are myths from you know jin and Islam to angels and demons and Christianity or or you know Judaism and uh these things sort of having uh full wholesale control over our our realities

and then you yeah there's some sort of br a bridge that takes place with DMT, but you even get into, you know, the information theory components of of this and how they're maybe more pure information theoretic, these beings, and you talk about John Wheeler. And so, um, yeah, I maybe maybe just for the audience, I'd love I'd love for you to kind of go through that kind of whole >> Yeah, I mean, the book Alien Information Theory, people read it and think that this is kind of what I believe. It's it's not what I believe. It's it's a

it's a work of art. It's a work of metaphysical speculation. I'm simply trying to show people that the world could well be and probably is something or reality probably is something that we completely different to what is normally presented to us by the theoretical physicists and the mathematicians and the astronomers and the astrobiologists etc etc and that actually reality is probably as Terrence

McKenna used to you know, stranger than we can suppose. >> Um, and >> I [laughter] think that was Arthur C. Clark, but >> it was actually it was JBS Haldane originally said he used the word queer >> uh than we suppose. Um, but stranger than we suppose. It's probably better these days. >> Um, but yeah, anyway, and and I think he's right. I mean, 30 seconds after you inhale a lung full of DMT, it's quite obvious that the reality is far far

stranger than you could possibly have supposed or anticipated. Uh, and the book was really to present one particular way of looking at reality. You know, maybe reality could be something like this. Um, I don't think I got everything right. Um but I think the idea which I think is broadly correct or could well be broadly correct um is that this reality our lower

dimensional reality our three-dimensional plus one um reality is is really a thin slice within a much larger higher dimensional structure. So we're kind of embedded within this highdimensional structure that we never normally have access to. And for reasons that we don't quite understand, DMT grants us temporary access to this um highdimensional structure. And so you

the world you kind of unfold into is I guess is one way of describing it. your brain um kind of unfolds into this highdimensional structure. This is why people describe entering a world that is not just strange but is literally impossible in that it could not exist within our three-dimensional world. World in which there are more dimensions what appears to be a

very higher dimensional space. It's a kind of reality that our reality, our three-dimensional world could only exist within, but it could not exist within our reality. If that makes sense. >> It makes total sense. Yeah. I think >> and at best they're little ports or bridges where they connect or something, right? And you talk about like it's like Carl Sean had this great clip where he's talking about platonic solids and he talks about a tesseract and you would never see the tesseract. You'd see a shadow of the tesseract. There's a great

um book um by Sir Edwin Abbott called Flatland. Yeah. Where it's like a 2D people and how they interact with 3D creatures and um you know maybe there are ports or whatever whereby you know they can somehow connect to the 3D reality but they're it's extremely limited. We're we're seeing sort of the tip of the iceberg. We're not seeing you know the iceberg itself. Yeah. We are kind of trapped within that flat land. Um, and you know, as Cole Seagan said, you would only in this world, we would only see the shadow of the tesseract.

When you go into the DMT space, people do describe seeing >> tesseracts and they will describe them. I saw something that was impossible. It was a >> fourdimensional cube or five-dimensional cube, which is completely impossible for us to comprehend. Only we can only imagine it in the as a mathematical abstraction. We there's no way for you to visualize uh or to to see a five-dimensional object in its true form. And yet when you smoke DMT, you do

you enter these worlds that appear to be higher dimensional. I I think yes rather than the portal well it is kind of a portal but I would say it's it's gating the flow of information from so rather than only receiving information let's say from this 2D flatland if you're in the flatland you start to receive information from the third d the third dimension and so your the brain temporarily effectively becomes a higher dimensional object the world that it's

constructing is also higher dimensional. So, you're seeing more you're literally seeing a greater expanse of reality than you can uh in the normal waking state. >> Oh, it's so fascinating. This episode is brought to you by my favorite new product, Masa Chips. Here's a quick history lesson. Before the 1990s, all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow. Then, the big food companies swapped this ingredient out for cheap, highly processed seed oils.

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it to you know locate the magneettosphere of the earth and navigate home and yeah you know enzyme creation and you have you know photosynthesis is another example and then you have Roger Penrose saying that the brain might you know these microtubules use uh uh sort of you know quantum biological processes And that would make sense in this sort of model because that would explain a lot of this sort of pre-sentiment where you're sort you sort of have you know some some sort of access to the future

and you you see traces of the future or the remote viewing stuff all these sort of non-local quote unquote experiences of consciousness would be maybe explained in a model like this and so even Schrodener who's you know developed you know the the wave function that governs all subatomic behavior in quantum mechanics. He had a lecture series called what is life where he talked about aperiodic crystals in the DNA? And he was basically like these are like ports of like higher consciousness or something like like there's like some sort of tesseract that like we're

tethered to. There's something higher than us and we're like we're a low-level port within which or prism within which this higher thing is has to be sort of you know reduced into like the body is a reduction valve. Yeah, I think like one of the questions that often comes up when I describe this idea that DMT is allowing information to flow from some other place. Um the question that always comes up is like like how does that work? I mean we understand how

information comes through the sense organs from the the the normal dimensional environment, but how does that information come from this other place? And I think the answer is at a very low level. So quantum subquantum maybe even much deeper levels that we we don't even understand. I think it's coming from um wherever however we are connected to this broader reality structure, this broader higher

dimensional structure. Wherever that connection is is obviously going to be kind of at the ground of reality at the quantum or the subquantum. And so the explanation I or or the kind of the model that I describe in alien alien information theory is this idea that the information is coming from the very deepest levels of reality. Yeah. and flowing upwards through the quantum and then the the subatomic and the atomic and through into these uh complex

networks and ultimately to this highest level of of the brain where your world model is constructed. So you have information always kind of flowing welling up if you like >> um um from the deepest level of reality and that process is somehow gated by the presence of DMT. Yeah. Well, Neils Bore would always say, you know, if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you definitely don't. It's like extremely confusing. And then if you you look at all the forefathers of quantum mechanics, they all flirted with the

idea that the mind had something to do with wave function collapse, often going back and forth on that issue, but it wasn't completely like heretical like it is sort of today. Yeah. And there's a guy named Hal Putoff actually who's known to be at the forefront of like all the alien research and he was just on Joe Rogan and he he ran the government psychic spy program for the CIA. So super interesting guy like but also at the tip of the spear of sort of exotic propulsion modalities. Longtime NSA CIA scientist who worked at Stanford

Research Institute and he has a model of extended electronamics that involves uh vector and scalar potentials. So these subquantum sort of phenomena >> that might have something to do with dictating wave function collapse and maybe you know if aliens were to communicate they'd probably communicate like this because apparently they propagate either at 1 / r not 1 over r squar so like you don't get the attenuation over spaceime >> um that that you do you don't get the drop off um and it seems like they they

you know you get like you know effectively like really really fast you know communications and stuff with them and So, I don't know. It's fascinating. I I wonder I wonder if we can break any ground on this stuff in our lifetime and if we or if we get a new model of physics in our lifetime. Like, do you think do you think physics in some ways is sort of sort of breaking? It feels like all the string theorists are admitting that they're, you know, not not really getting anywhere. >> Yeah. I I mean, I'm not a physicist. Um but I have spoken to physicists and the

problem I think you get is as soon as you start talking about discarnate intelligent advanced intelligences you the eyes start to roll and it's like they already they've already decided what's possible and what's not possible and and the idea of these advanced super intelligent agents that that you somehow interface with in the DMT state. It's too far from what they can accept. >> Well, because they turn science into an

all-encompassing sort of religion. But if you think about if really what they're calling science is two things. It's predictively useful and it can turn into sort of instrumentalizable technology. That is it. Right? It is not an onlogical map of reality. And so when you say I've experienced these beings in a DMT state, >> when we could say tons of people, like a statistically significant amount of people experience the same things in the DMT state, they can just write that off

because you can't turn it into math and you can't make it repeatable in our sort of waking reality. But I think that whole mode has limits and that that itself is going to break. Like the the that the very idea that that is sort of a satisfactory explanation of all you know metaphysics our reality itself has to break at some point. >> Yeah. I mean I I think you know what I've I've been studying DMT for 20 years and my approach has

always been to first of all take the explanations that I'm given by kind of mainstream science. Um these are hallucinations. This is a type of dream imagery. These are, you know, in um a kind of archetypal symbols that come from the collective unconscious and I have to basically deal with them. I have to analyze them, deconstruct them and show why they fail before I can say,

okay, we've tried all the explanations that you've given, we've tried to kind of make them fit, and they don't. they leave the vast majority of the DMT experience completely unaccounted for. So can we now please start to think about explanations that would have before seemed to be untenable. Um and when you do that you actually find that the idea that there are advanced intelligences that are non-physical that

have transcended the physical what are often referred to as postbiological beings. That's not far out anymore. I mean, there are very mainstream scientists that are saying, okay, um, you know, how does a intelligent progress? Okay, it it reaches eventually after maybe millions of years, it reaches a kind of technological age, the kind of age we're in now, a a digital uh computer age. then it starts thinking

transcending biology. I mean people are thinking about that already. >> Um and um many scientists are saying look we're probably now maybe only a few hundred years away from dispensing with the biological paradigm and shifting to a post-biological paradigm. Um, and you can see it in, you know, you have to kind of ignore, in my opinion anyway, this this climbing the Cardesefev scale, this kind of Elon

Musk idea that we're going to be colonizing Mars. This is a very human >> um that we have that we're simply going to be expanding out into the cosmos and kind of populating other planets and moons or whatever as humans. I I don't think that's what it's going to look like at all. And actually, if you look at the anti-artership scale uh proposed by John Barrow in the 1990s uh where he said, look, we we spend okay, we spend a lot of money sending objects into orbit

or you know to distant celestial objects, whatever. But we spend much more time going not outwards but inwards to smaller and smaller scales. If you think about the Large Hadron Collider, um this is aimed at trying to understand and manipulate smaller and smaller structures, not larger and larger structures. And so it seems that a more likely trajectory for an intelligent civilization is not to go out into the cosmos, but to go deeper

and deeper levels until you reach what Barrow called the omega minus civilization, which is able to manipulate the fundamental structure of spaceime or the fundamental structure of reality itself. This is where we're going to be or this is where intelligent civilizations are going to instantiate themselves not by spawning across the cosmos uh but by instantiating themselves at the deepest level the fundamental computational substrate of

reality itself. That's where they're going to go. And once they do that, once they make that leap, they disappear. They become um everywhere and nowhere. Yeah, >> they become completely transparent to normal modes of communication and yet they are literally right here, right now. And I think the idea if if they want to communicate with us, they're going to do it through our brain. Um, that's obvious. Why why materialize

in a physical form? That makes no sense. I mean, maybe they can do that. Uh, but it makes much more sense for them to interface directly with our brains. So that idea isn't far out. It doesn't it doesn't stray too far from modern scientific discourse. Um and that's exactly what I'm suggesting happens with DMT is that you are gating access to some kind of advanced intelligent agent to your brain. Could it be one of these postbiological beings that had um

vanished into the fabric of spaceime long before we arrived on the scene? Maybe. Could they be beings that exist parallel to our universe in some higher level of reality? Maybe. I don't know. But what I'm saying isn't it's not mystical. It's not magical. It's actually perfectly in line in my opinion with what scientists are already u talking about in completely different >> Yeah. I love that. Well, yeah. Even Richard Fineman you f famous physicist well respected by all you know

conventional or not >> said you know there's room at the bottom that was his famous sort of line. So >> much more room. >> Much more room >> at the bottom. I mean orders many orders of magnitude. >> Space down there. >> Down there. And that's what he meant is what you were t is sort of this you know similar to the anti-cardev scale where you know we have to go inwards and not not just outwards. And even the Elon Musk thing involves all sorts of, >> uh, convoluted, you know, uh, logic that makes no sense because he'll say at the

same time as we need to, you know, colonize Mars and then go interstellar and like, you know, endlessly float through Cartisian space to like, you know, make the whole cosmos our empire or whatever. He'll say that and then he'll say we live in a simulation. You can't believe [laughter] if like if you think we live in a simulation and you have to think how can we ascend outside of the simulation that needs to be your first order thing before anything else. >> But he's basically saying no we have to accept the assimulation as it is and

then just float through it and find some exoplanet. It's like what are you talking about dude like find the computer code. What are you that makes no sense. So, um, yeah, I find that interesting and and another kind of cut at what you're saying with, you know, kind of, um, large hadron colliders and and finding, you know, really small, you know, subquantum, you know, quirks and that sort of thing is the human being. We take the human out of science like we're not we are not allowed to view ourselves as a measurement instrument.

So, it's like the double slit experiment where everybody's always like it's the quantum detector, it's not the person or whatever. and you know the large hydron collider which is like it's a it's like a you know an empirical like objective thing that we can do but what about what about an individual's like epistemology and especially over you know you're studying this stuff systematically like can you discount all of that if if a lot of people are seeing these architectures outside of their own reality and they're all consistent that seems like it would

be really important like the three you know the three body problem this Chinese science fiction novel Like it's so great where he talks about like the farmer and the shooter. If we are these 2D things on flat land or whatever and they're like, you know, metal metal sheets or something and you have shooters who are in 3D space shooting at the metal. You see these little craters. We just think they're little, >> you know, holes, little caverns in our in our flatland. We have no idea that there are literally like people who are like, you know, grading the metal and

like, you know, forming our world that, you know, they're sort of responsible for it. Um, and it's completely at their discretion. And the whole thing is that they literally have particle accelerators that like get different results and it's like it's kind of like the the physics itself is at the discretion of these like triceran aliens. It's a real mind [ __ ] cuz there's nothing a conventional physicist can say >> that's like 100% debunking of that >> Yeah, precisely. [laughter] >> Yeah. and and and they develop, you

know, when they see these little pock marks coming, >> they have, you know, mathematical models for how these arise that that are completely wrong, of course, but [laughter] and but they kind of maybe hold together and they develop more sophisticated models to explain how these pockm marks appear and they just have no idea that it's it's some other intelligence that's generating them. And I think, you know, I I strongly lean towards the idea that that's the kind of reality that we live in, that we have

all of these models of what's going on, and all models are wrong, but some are useful. Um, and I think sometimes it's having useful models, which we clearly have useful models because we have all of this technology. So, we clearly our models, they're not nonsense. But the idea, it's important not to to mistake a useful model with a true model and that we're actually getting to the act the actual true nature of reality because I don't think we can say that at all.

>> Yeah. It's the map is not the territory. >> And it's like you have that's why I think string theory is such BS. It's like I don't need to be a super wellrespected physicist. I'm not a physicist. But if you have two bad maps, general relativity and quantum mechanics, which are just heruristics for creating technology that's adaptive, so we can, you know, do cool stuff in the world, create, you know, uh, you know, create in the world. Um, why would you put the two jagged maps together with abstract math? That's never going

to work. Like, if you just think about that high level, it doesn't make sense. >> Right. Exactly. I mean, I'm not a physicist, so I don't want to start, you know, getting into Ed Whitten's territory and things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was losing a debate [laughter] to him, but like >> but like again, you just all you need is that high level common sense thing like heterodoxy and unorthodox thinking doesn't scale with IQ. You can have a [clears throat] hyper specialized extremely intelligent person who is bled into a BS culde-sac like sheep to

slaughter. And that that happens all the >> Oh yeah, absolutely. >> So there's there's intelligence is it's a really finicky hard, you know, thing where it's like the the the ability to think in a sort of a variant, you know, non- consensus way. It doesn't necessarily scale in this perfect way like like mathletes are not necessarily doing that thing. >> You know, and there's a place for both, but like I don't [laughter] know. >> Yeah. But um do you think that you know there have been uh groups you know

Graham Hancock wrote the the forward uh to your new book the death by astonishment uh which I recommend everybody go by and um he Graham's a really interesting guy because he kind of oscillates between writing about kind of you know more conventional archaeology but just kind of you know his like contrarian views you know things like Gbeckley and the younger dus impact theory >> and then he writes these other books that people don't talk about as much with like Robert Beval >> about like secret societies like controlling [laughter] earth and stuff

and like you have you know the Freemasons I think an acacia leaf or something is like in their like you know >> and you have the luscinian mystery rituals Graham also wrote the forward to Brian Murescu's book you know about you know called the immortality key about these mystery rituals do you think that like elite members of soc society have been systematically accessing these other realms and either on behalf of or in conjunction with these quote unquote

entities or machine elves helping to shape our reality. Are they are there myth makers? Oh, I mean that's a very interesting idea. I mean the short answer is I don't know. But it's quite clear that there are there are have been civilizations going back thousands of years. I mean, Graeme wrote this wonderful book, Supernatural, which is not one of his most well-known, where he he examined um the cave art going back tens of

thousands of years, and made the compelling argument, as have many other anthropologists, it's not just Graham here, um that these civilizations 30, 40,000 years ago during the upper paleo upper Paleolithic, if I'm getting my periods, right? But anyway, um they were the cave art clearly showed beings that were nonhuman, that were nonan animal or that seem to be some kind of combination of humanoid and animal form uh in these

pitch [snorts] black deep dark caves. Um the question is why? Why? Why, you know, were they interfacing? Did they discover a a means of uh interacting with these intelligences all all those thousands of years ago? Um you know darkness is very interesting as a kind of as an aside here um in that many people who like modernday um darkness retreats where

people go into these pitch black rooms for five six seven days many of them describe you know after the fourth fifth day describe experiences that they say are DMT experiences Aubry Marcus I was on his show a few months ago and he's very experienced with DMT He's also very experienced with darkness retreats. And he said >> this wasn't like DMT. This was a DMT. I had a DMT experience whilst you know after the fourth or fifth day in in this

darkness retreat. So we're actually doing a study now um we're kind of initiating a study to actually test this. myself and New Nordics, um the group that I work with in Florida, we're funding a study where they're going to send people into these darkness retreats, dark rooms, and then take urine samples or saliva samples or blood samples at intervals and see do these DMT DMT spikes. >> Do we see DMT? >> That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, you know, there there were even pre the

Elusinian and other mystery rituals where they would take urgot, you know, this sort of, you know, LSA, you know, psychedelic substance. >> Um, there were caving rituals. There are prescratic caving rituals. A guy named Peter Kingsley writes about this where they would literally go into a cave for long amounts of time and they would presumably have some pretty transcendent sort of experiences. So, that's really >> So, that could be what's what's going on. And so this is just another technology or another technique that they they had discovered. Yeah.

>> Um and and you see throughout history whether you know it could be the theian mysteries where they discovered this urgot preparation. Now whether it's just urgot, whether there are other synergistic plants being added. Some people speculate that and Brian Muresco speculated there are other things going in that enhance or catalyze um the experience but still it's the same thing. you're somehow you're using some kind of technique whether it's a molecular technique or darkness or

breath work or whatever some kind of technique to manipulate your uh neurochemistry in some way such that you can access these intelligent beings that you couldn't access otherwise. And so, so the fact that these civilizations have been working with these intelligences for thousands and thousands of years, you you kind of have to take that seriously to just dismiss it and say, "Oh, they were just deluding themselves. They were just having hallucinations."

No, I think that's that's it's kind of insulting. um the the Amazonians who developed Iawaska for example, you know, this is a true pharmacological technology. This is not just an infusion of a plant. This isn't this is this is a technology that requires both the DMT which is orally inactive plus uh this plant banisteropsis karpy, the ioaska vine which contains the mauo inhibitors

that allow it to become active. these have to be brought together. Um, and so this is a pharmacological technology that they have developed and they develop relationships with the beings that they uh interact with in the ioaska state and also with other plant-based preparations, EA uh Yopo and others. Um, they develop relationships with these beings. They have names for the different types of beings. They see them um as members of their tribe. They don't

see them as spirits. They don't call them spirits. They say they are not human. They are not animal. They are >> Um they see them as but they see them as beings that they can develop relationships with. Um that will protect them. Um that they can communicate with that they can seek answers from. Um and to dismiss all of that and say, "Oh, they're just, you know, they're just hallucinating." I think it's it's it it just speaks to the this this self

assured cocky arrogance that modern >> postenlightenment humans have that we have it all worked out. We have a handle on what's possible and what's not possible. We know what's real and what's not real. And I'm sorry, but that's not real. I'm afraid you're just hallucinating. It's just a kind of >> No, I'm sorry, but that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Um and it's kind of insulting to these uh cultures that have developed these technologies and IO is a

incredible technology. >> Yeah, it's amazing. >> Yeah. It's so it's so fascinating just the likelihood of combining those two things, you know, in the Amazon forest are like if you run through a bunch of pure permutations or whatever, the likelihood of getting that combination is very low still. Exactly. like it's it it had to have been that itself had to have been sort of downloaded or something as like a a recipe for this. >> that's what they will tell you. They will tell you if you ask them how did you discover this? They will say well the plants told us you know when they say the plants they mean these

intelligences which reside within the forest. They told them how to how to do this. And who are we to say? >> And they talk about people from the start. It's funny in the western context we have disclosure and we have you know uh uh you know government reverse engineering programs and there they're like yeah obviously we have these people that we commun with from the you know they come down from the stars and I also find it interesting if you were to go to any western academic you know philosophy department you know there's a famous quote I think all philosophy is a

footnote of Plato or something right >> and we think of Plato as like the father of you know modern western rationality like pre-enlightenment And then you like look back at like what he was doing and it's like he went to Elusis and he was tripping on Urgot and like probably experiencing some like primordial soul version, you know, there's a word for it, noisis, the ver version of himself >> and then he writes about all of that stuff in the Republic and we ignore that and we talk about it like it's some like myopic governance manual and it's just

like what is like it's completely retracing the past with our modern kind of disenchantment epistemology. ology. >> Yeah. Alan Watts used to say that the modern philosopher would wear a white coat if he thought he could get away with it, [laughter] right? They think of themselves as like scientists doing philosophy. They come in with their briefcase and they put on their white coat and they do philosophy. They take themselves very seriously. Yeah. That they're getting to the >> the nitty-gritty, the truth of the

>> Yeah. Exa, that's exactly right. And I think there's this like desire for people like Stephen Pinker, Richard Richard Dawkins or all these people to like defend the status quo. Like I think the big rift between people like that and like maybe you and me is like >> I don't think we I don't we think that we don't have any of the answers like you and me. I think they think that they do. And like we are putting the final period at the end of a very long sentence of you know this enlightenment project and uh we're at the end of

history in some ways like the final rule in the game of chess is yet to be figured out. Maybe that's string theory maybe it's some you know other thing but like we pretty much know how reality works in their in their model >> and that is insane to me. It's insane. It's the ultimate hubris. [laughter] Well, they were saying that I forget who said it. Uh maybe it was like the 19th century that we have basic all of physics has now been worked out. It's nor now a matter of increasingly precise And then came relativity and quantum

theory and it's changed everything and but we we make the same mistakes >> even now you know many people not everybody and and you have to be a little bit careful uh because there is a lot of for one of a better term >> Yeah. um that that got you know within this kind of field right there are a lot of grifters uh and there are a lot of [ __ ] artists and so you have to it's really difficult you have to kind of

tread a fine line between not being there's this tension >> I always find and one is pulling you back towards standard materialist orthodox mainstream science um and kind thinking, "Yeah, we've got it all worked out. These are just hallucinations. Nothing to be concerned about." And then you've got another this this this from the opposite direction. You're being pulled into just a steaming pile of [ __ ] right? And it's like, how

do you You have to It's a constant struggle for me. >> To try and separate myself from the [ __ ] whilst not being too far out from the sign. If you're engaging in that struggle, then you're doing it right. Yeah. It's it's a sila and caribbdus between excess dogmatism and excess skepticism. Or to put it in your the way you just framed it, um >> newagy kind of solopscistic, you know, everything is everything mushyrained thinking. And then on the other hand, uh

you know, complete uh uh radical cartisian skepticism or something like there has to be some middle path. >> Exactly. And that that that is a treacherous place. So you find yourself very alone because it's it's much easier to snap to grid on either there's the tribal dynamics exist in a way that uh you know things coagulate on either end of that kind of you know barbell. >> Yeah. Exactly. So that's what I do. So I it's it's it's a difficult path, but it's the only path I think. Um when you're faced with something like DMT,

which is so strange and is so in my opinion mysterious and inexplicable, you you're not going to be able to explain it by just snapping to um the usual explanations because because they fail. Yeah. Uh and that's what I found is that they fail. So I tread care. I keep one foot firmly planted in the scientific arena. Yeah. And I and I then reach out with an outstretched hand into other territory, but I'm very careful about

what I say, what I do, and that I try and rationalize and explain my thinking every step of the way. I don't just say, "Oh, me, maybe these are spirits from the astral plane. Yeah, that'll do." Right? [laughter] >> You know, maybe these are spirits of the departed. Yeah, that will do. Yeah. Um because you can anything goes right and you can't I try to trace it back and make just >> just to kind of convince people that I'm not just nuts. I'm not just kind of going with whatever but I do explain

myself I think kind of carefully and rationally and you know piece by piece step by step. >> Yeah. No, I I feel the same way and it's it's tough because like YouTube for example doesn't do nuance well. No. So I, you know, I have a show and people think it's it's like an alien show or whatever. I'm like, I don't know if these things are aliens. Like I don't know if in fact I would say that there are other hypotheses that better describe them than the sort of e, you know, classic extraterrestrial hypothesis. But it's this meme that

people can't seem to transcend or something. And so >> it's it's it's wild. But um on that note of like wanting to keep your your feet sort of firmly grounded, >> we were talking before the camera about Christopher Timberman at at Imperial College who you sort of devised some of these extended DMT experiments that he's you know executing. We were also talking about uh a mutual friend. I haven't talked to him in a long time. this guy Anton Bilton >> who was thinking of giving people DMT putting them in adjacent Faraday cages

so there you know there's no way of like you know traditional signals being communicated you know >> and seeing if they can telepathically like you know transport im communicate images between them. Are there any experiments like those two or anything else that you are particularly excited about that brings this stuff out of the realm of speculation and more into the scientific mainstream? >> Yeah, I I mean so the DMT the work that

Chris Timberman was doing at Imperial this ex what's called extended state DMT or DMTX it has come to be known for short. So this was a model, a proposal by myself and Rick Strasman back in 2015 because as everyone knows who knows anything about DMT, it's it's an extremely intense experience. You know, you're trans you're kind of hurtled into this alternate world. You look around, shocked, bewildered, a gasast

um at this thing that's just appeared in front of you uh and that surrounds you and overwhelms you. and then you're kind of dragged back again very very quickly. It's it's it's not a great drug used in that way, you know, vaporized or injected. It's not a great drug to kind of explore. It's not a the state is it's very fast and very very short. Um, so I was kind of looking at DM DMT is a weird

>> drug, not just in terms of its effects, but it's it has these pharmacological peculiarities that set it apart. Um, so unlike other drugs, for example, LSD or psilocybin, if you give someone LSD, they will have a certain intensity of experience based upon dose. If you then give them the same dose, let's say a day later, it will be slightly diminished. and then a day later and it you you you rapidly build up tolerance. The same with psilocybin. With DMT you don't uh and it's not fully

understood why. Um but Rick Strazman there have been you know reports going back decades that you know you can use DMT in quick succession uh and not experience any tolerance effect. And Rick Strasman studied this during his 1990s studies. He would inject someone with DMT and he'd measure the intensity of the experience using a special rating scale that he developed. Then he'd inject them again 30 minutes later with the same dose and they had the same intensity of experience and on and on. So there was no buildup of tolerance. Um

it's also of course because it's so short acting um it's it's removed from the the brain. It gets into the brain very very quickly and it's cleared from the brain very very quickly. It's it's just this it's like an almost like it's engineered with precision to kind of slot into the brain's machinery and kind of cause these highly dramatic changes in the structure and dynamics of the world. And so it it occurred to me that well why don't we repurpose a technique from

anesthesiology called target controlled intravenous infusion um where you if you want to keep someone in an anesthetized state. What you do is you don't just inject them with a drug and kind of let it kind of get into their brain and then metabolize because you can't control how long they're they remain unconscious for. So what you do you you inject them with a very short acting anesthetic and you infuse it use a a special infusion device which is programmed based upon the uh the the metabolism and

distribution all these kind of properties of the drug that you you need a mathematical model for. Um so you infuse it into their their uh their veins and and you able to maintain this fairly stable brain concentration of this anesthetic drug and you can manipulate how deep they are in in the anisttized state for as long as you want. Then you switch off the machine that they will come out fairly fairly quickly. So I thought what why don't we just use this technology uh but with >> And so I wrote to Rick and I said I kind

of have this idea. I think this might work but we need to kind of show that it that it could work. Um and for that we needed this what's called a pharmacocinetic model which models how DMT is distributed and metabolized so that we can we can just show that yes this should work that DMT the properties of DMT make it amunable for this technique. And so Rick had all of the blood data, blood sampling data from his 90s studies which he sent to me and then we got to work and we wrote this paper

it um for 30 minutes. So instead of just two or three minutes within the breakthrough state, they extended it for 30 minutes. And uh it it worked very very well. The there was no physiological concerns. The heart rate, blood pressure was normal. Anxiety levels kind of peaked at the beginning and then settled down. Um the the intensity of the experience was perfectly stable uh throughout the 30 minutes. Um and another group in Barzel

Mata u Matias Leaki I think he's called uh has extended it for 90 minutes. Another group has extended it for 6 hours at a very low dose level. So this is the technology right? Um this is this is how we go from um scuba diving to deep sea diving. You have this like you you're able to go to the bottom of the ocean and stay there. You know you have a direct line back to the boat. You know, that's how I see DMTX. It allows you to explore, to

navigate, to perform experiments within the space, uh, and to train >> um, to actually spend time within the space. And importantly, >> it's almost like lucid dreaming or >> Kind of like a little in control in a place, typically out of control. >> Exactly. And so once you get into this space and it stabilizes, then you can begin to think about establishing communication with these intelligences. Whatever you think they are, whatever you think about their ontology, okay, we can establish communication

with them, begin to um think about, you know, what can we learn from them? Um, and one aspect that I'm particularly interested in is the ontology. Can we demonstrate that these are more than fabrications of the brain? Right? Can we show somehow that we're actually interfacing with some kind of intelligence that is non-human? And that if that was possible, and I think it

might be, that's I mean that the implications of that is almost beyond >> right? [laughter] the idea that we can use this drug to communicate with beings and we can show that these are non-human intelligent beings. And I think that's that's that could be possible. Uh back in the early 2000s, uh a guy called Rodriguez published this paper and he said, why don't we give these entities uh why don't we give them mathematical problems so we can say okay I'll give

you a large number Mr. Alien uh I want you to find the unique prime factors of this large number. I can't do this in my head. Uh but you're very very smart. So you can do that for me. Now it's a nice idea, right? Uh and if they gave him the correct answer, we'd know that it was not happening in the brain, that there was actually interaction with some kind of intelligence. The problem with this, of course, is that, you know, finding it's it it's it kind of feels again a bit presumptuous that they're going to want to play our little prove your

onlogical status games. Prove that you're real. here's some, you know, I don't see the it it's very presumptuous to think that they're going to want to kind of play along with that. So, I don't think that's necessarily the way to go. It's one way to go. Uh, but I think what's interesting about these intelligences is that they betray they can't help but betray their intelligence. Everything they do is um is is is a kind of performance and

demonstration of their intelligence. You just need people who can recognize it. Um so I was speaking just a few days ago in Denver at psychedelic science conference with um Andres Gomez Emilson. So he's this very smart mathematician guy but also very interested in DMT. >> And he was telling me things that were blowing my mind. I mean he was he said okay I go into this state uh the DMT state and these beings they they they paint surfaces in four colors. >> They do it repeatedly.

Now, to me, if I go in and I see an entity painting surfaces with four colors, I go, "That's cool." But he said, "Actually, there's more to it than this." Because painting a surface with four colors, like a map, yeah, a complicated map of shapes, right, with four colors, it's called the four color color theorem. So if you have a map of shapes that are all kind of tessillated, right? Um you have you have to color each shape with a color. So one

of four colors so that no two shapes have um the same color, right? So imagine a world map and you have to color every country, but you don't want two countries having the same color, right? You can do it. It's been proved that you can do it with just four colors. But if you were given a very complex map and asked to do it by hand, it would take you a long time. I mean, Andress is a very smart guy and he said it would take him all afternoon, [laughter] right? Um, so for me that means it would take me all day. Um,

right. Uh, and yet these entities they they [snorts] do it instantaneously like less than a second and they do it repeatedly. So they're performing, you know, in short, they're performing mathematical operations, mathematical algorithms that would take a human brain, um, a smart human, several hours, and they're doing it in a fraction of a second. And there are other things and that I didn't quite understand, but other operations, finding the distances

between two surfaces, weird stuff, mathematical stuff, right? So most people when they go into this space, they go, "Fuck, this is incredible. this is impossible but they can't tell you why it's impossible. When a mathematician goes into this space they can say yes this is impossible for these reasons right these are the mathematical operations required to construct these things and a human brain couldn't do that within a fraction of a second. So it just occurred to me that this is how we do it. We don't kind of rely on them

to play with us or to kind of um to cooperate with our little prove yourself games, but actually they're doing it all the time. They're demonstrating their intelligence. They can't help it. They love performing and we just need to send the right people in. So we send in mathematicians, you send in geometers or topologists or whatever, right? You send in linguists. um who can look at the kind of because code and language is also a big part of the experience and they can say okay this seems to be some kind of language

and I can explain why it's some kind of language it seems to be informationally dense or whatever you know adheres to these various rules of how languages are constructed and bringing data back so you're not just sending people in and going kind of what happened man right the kind of the straasman approach is great for its time but now we have this DMTX technology we can send people in with specific skill sets. >> Specific, you know, high level expertise in very specific fields and they can say, okay, I'm going to come in. I'm going to describe the the geometric

structure of the space. I'm going to describe the topology of the space. I'm going to describe the the way that these intelligences communicate and all this kind of stuff. It's hard to comprehend the implications, I think, that we could actually demonstrate. >> Yeah. pretty soon, you know, or or at least to a very high level of probability say, okay, these intelligences are doing things that the human brain can't do. What does that mean? >> Yes. Yes. Do do we have you know in the

past we've had angel hierarchies like you have St. Thomas Aquinas with his angel hierarchy or amus >> you know who was the other guy Dianisis of Aropagite or something something like >> Yeah. like we have these sort of uh and they literally have taxonomies where they'll have like attributes associated with these different beings, physical characteristics of the beings. >> Do we have a taxonomy of the DMT world beings? Do we have categories, you know, like a like a like an Excel sheet of these things like a bestie, right? Um we

don't not a formal one. Yeah, I mean there are pe there are attempts online, you know, to describe and there's a book by David J. Brown, illustrated field guide to DMT entities, which is a lot of fun, uh, kind of describing the type of entities that people experience and there there are clearly patterns. Um, so the machine elves, by far the most famous residents of this space, >> they tend to be jovial. They're multitudinous. You know, there's so many of them bouncing around and they're jolly and they like to show you

wonderfully strange highdimensional objects. Terren McKenna used to call like fab eggs but in nine dimensions or whatever you know these kind of beings that that tend to be more about a show like a circus kind of thing. Uh more about performing and showing you what's possible. Um and then there are more kind of serious beings. So the insecttoids manted kind of beings. These tend to be a bit more um uh less jovial, shall we say, often and they they are

often the beings that will perform kind of surgery uh on you on your brain or on your body and scanning and this kind of >> That's so common in alien abductions. So common, right? And there are always these sort of worker be like often short grays and then there's like a tall gray overseeing it or there's a a tall white you know these like sort of blonde Nordic looking beings overseeing you know it there is this sort of hierarchy. Yes. Always almost almost always associated with this. >> Yeah. I I actually got last year I got

this email from this Korean guy. M now there aren't that I don't think there are that many Koreans who take Iawaska who travel to Peru to take Iawaska. So I I kind of it piqued my interest when he emailed me. But he he went to um Peru because he wanted healing. He wanted to meet Mother Awaska and the spirits of the forest. He didn't he didn't get that. He got a full-blown alien experience. He he was taken by this what he described as the alien scientist

through this extremely complex computational tunnel thing into this uh spacecraft or some kind of highly hyper technological environment and these beings were torturing him. They were had with these smaller beings again the hierarchy um these smaller beings that were kind of doing things to him. Uh, and then there was this alien scientist, um, who was not like these little insecttoid beings, but was much much more powerful. Um, and that that he

this being as taking out his soul. This being was torturing him at a deep soul level. I mean, he came out of it thinking that his soul had been captured like a fish on a hook, he described it, uh, by these beings. And it went on and on. Um, first experience, the aliens came. Second experience, more of the same. Third experience, more every single um, IASKA session while he was in Peru,

um, it just got worse and worse. They showed him horrible things. They showed him humanity being destroyed and, uh, trapped in this matrix like, um, structure or whatever. I mean, it was horrible. It was completely alien. was nothing like he was expecting. He was he was expecting his brain was primed to see the spirits of the forest. He got something completely alien and he was horrified by it. Um, and that's not an uncommon experience when people take, you know, when you

take DMT, whether it's the form of Iawaska in a forest or whether it's in a the University of New Mexico hospital in in room 531 where Rick Strazman did his studies or in your bedroom or basement or back room. Um, >> you you cannot you cannot guarantee the kind of being that you're going to be interacting with. And if you're lucky, you'll get some nice performance from the AL, but there's a very, you know, not insignificant probability that you're going to encounter being more

objectionable, shall we say? >> Yeah, for sure. [laughter] Well, that brings up this earlier question that we kind of touched on, but it's like how, you know, is the is DMT a bridge to a world that is separated without the DMT from our waking reality >> or are they always like pre-enlightenment? If you were to say there are, you know, machine elves, not call them by that name, but like little beings sort of like controlling the forces of, you know, reality and like, you know, pregravity and things like

see the others or something and he's talking about the man in the high castle you know where it's like the Nazis and the Japanese had like annexed you know the United States of World War II went the other way >> and He's, you know, and then he's g giving this speech in front of all these like wellrespected people or whatever and he's like, "You guys don't get it. Like that world happened. Like that's real. Like that's an all the parallel universe or something." And so he goes into this whole he has this whole >> My friend RZ Verk um who's written uh you know a couple of books about

simulation theory is friends with his >> uh Tessadick and she talks about how he was just fully bought into the world being a simulation. you know, it's like time froze in Roman time. Like we're still in Roman times and this this is all this just sort of modern veneer. But maybe the most interesting book I think he wrote along these lines is this book called The Adjustment Team. I don't know if you've heard of this, >> but it's a it's a book about like if you had um a group that was in total control

of reality and they like froze this, you know, podcast and then they like, you know, moved the water like an inch or whatever, then you get this >> just like, you know, for rockets like one° off course, you get this sort of error propagation. You get this multiplicative butterfly effect that like changes timelines. And if you think about a lot of what you're saying with these DMT entities, if they have any interface with our waking reality, they would have that ability like the color thing that you mentioned.

>> So it gets into these weird questions of like are there timeiting archons or beings that are like coming down freeze framing things, neuralizing us, changing a little variable here and there, and then letting things run their course. And then, okay, you know, some other some other thing happens where some, you know, a nuke's about to go off. They stop the nuke or whatever, you know, which UFOs show up around nuclear sites, >> But they're like weakly entangled with our reality. All they care about are

these sort of >> cosmic scale timeline minor. It's it's minimal interference, minimal adjustments necessary to like maintain certain timelines, but they are monitoring the timelines. I think we, you know, I can't say whether that's true or not, but we can't rule it out. And when you it's like when you when you use DMT and and you're confronted with beings that are clearly

to say they're more advanced than humans, it just doesn't do them justice. I mean, you're talking about beings that have that appear to have that kind of uh cosmic abilities, whether that is indeed, you know, having whether they are normally kind of um linked to connected to uh have some kind of relationship with our with our reality but kind of stay back. I don't know. But

you the fact that we have this what I consider to be a molecular technology that allows us to interface with beings that that seem to have those kind of properties that seem to be at that level of intelligence. A level of intelligence that really is beyond our comprehension. We can't there's no way for us to conceive of what an intelligence like that truly is or its potential or its power or its abilities. uh then we should use it. And and

going back thousands of years, I mean these obviously these civilizations in the Amazonian rainforest, they didn't have they weren't talking about things you're talking about, but they were describing the same types of beings which they took very seriously. So they were talking about um the Yanomami for example had these these beings which which they called the wusinari insect >> um which sound very much you know very intelligent very fearsome creatures

which sound a lot like the insecttoid aliens that people are describing in the 21st century. uh they describe the heura which are these multitudinous beings. You can never come to the end of them. They say they come dancing and they're they're singing and playing flutes and they're just be dance bounding around u and jumping into your chest and filling your chest. This is shamanistic mythos going back thousands of years. And then in the modern era, people describe seeing multitudinous giggling lively

little beings, balls of light or whatever that jump into their chest. Uh, and so clearly this is not just a it's not Terrence McKenna implanting the idea of machine elves into people's brains. >> These are um, beings, intelligent beings that go back thousands of years. And now we have a technique. We know how to access them. uh and we need to start taking that seriously and not simply dismissing. You know, my work is not so much about

saying I know what's going on. Uh but really to convince people that they don't have a [ __ ] clue what's going on and that they they should stop simply assuming um that they understand what DMT is. It's just your brain on drugs, man. Uh this is just your brain making it up, man. You know that these kind of explanations and they don't they don't work. And I think we need to we need to certainly draw inspiration from these indigenous peoples who did take them seriously and did see them as beings that they could have relationships with

and learn from and and and bring that into there's a thread running from these indigenous cultures going back thousands of years and it's it runs into the 21st century where we're now we have much better technology. Now we have, as I was just talking about DMTX, we have this technology where we can much more reliably and stably enter the space. We're not relying on um drinking extremely bitter, disgusting decoctions. Nothing wrong with that. Uh but we now have techniques where we can stabilize

the state. We can go in there, we can send people and we can actually begin to build relationships with these intelligences. Uh and that might be what we need if we're going to progress beyond uh where we are now. You know, we need to do that probably pretty quickly before we kill ourselves, which is not uh that unlikely, >> right? Do you do you think um you know, DMT is so fascinating? Do you think that there is something about the fact that it exists in all organic matter that is

sort of an important aspect to it? I mean, that's that's again that's another one of its peculiarities, right? It's not it's the simplest of all the naturally occurring psychedelics. >> Um, you look at the molecule, it looks perfectly unremarkable. There's nothing interesting about it. If I saw DMT and I didn't know anything about it, I'd say >> probably not going to be that >> Uh, it's two steps, enzyatic steps from tryptophan, this amino acid. Um, you

decaroxulate a tryptophan, you get tryptoine. You add two methile groups, you get DMT. This is as simple as it >> Uh, and as you said, it's not just common, it's ubiquitous. Terrence Dennis McKenna, Terren's brother, says DM nature is drenched in DMT. Uh, he thinks, and he's probably right, that if you looked carefully, you'd find it in basically every plant. Some have higher concentrations than others. So you can extract it from like,

>> right? So it's this it's see it's it's this ubiquitous very simple molecule that just happens to when you smoke it or inject it just happens to gate access to this completely alien reality filled with highly intelligent beings. I don't buy that that's just a coincidence. It seems like there is this message implanted in our reality, implanted in the natural world and it just takes uh

an organism with a certain level of cognitive advancement, right? You can't just eat plants. >> You can't just munch plants mindlessly and have a DMT trip. You can't do that. You have to isolate it. You have to extract it. You have to learn how to use it as the Amazonians did with Iawaska uh to bypass this monoamine oxidase in the stomach that you need an intelligent being to do that. Uh which is another interesting aspect to it. You don't stumble across DMT. Uh you have to learn

to uh you have to discover it and learn how to use it. And this is not you know the technology didn't end with Iawaska. It didn't end in the 1960s when we learned that you could vaporize it either. And it didn't end in 2015 when myself and Rick Strazman developed the DMTX protocol. Um I think we're still learning to use this this technology. Um and I think it's so it is like a techn it's like semiconductors are like you know it's like electron differentials or

whatever. It's like this is like you know another technology where if you figure out the key to extracting it like you're you're opened up to a whole new >> Exactly. And what's also very interesting of course is that it's not just a product of plant metabolism metabolism. It's a product of mamalium metabolism as well. So it's found in humans. So we're all carrying DMT at very low levels which raises the question and again this is something that I'm currently working on um with with New Nordics. We've we've hired the

University of uh or contracted with a team at the University of Florida um to develop techniques to hack the brain's endogenous DMT system. Right? So we know that there is we know the human brain produces DMT but in very low levels. And we think we found a peptide or a peptide that was first found in the 1970s but then forgotten about. >> What's a peptide? >> We don't know. We know it's there. We know it. It basically it inhibits this

enzyme called indolethyl nmethyl transferase inm. Okay, >> it's the key enzyme to produce DMT. Basically converts tryptoine to dimethylryptoamine. Now this enzyme um is inhibited by this peptide we all carry uh and basically keeps DMT levels low. Now we know this peptide is there. It's in cerebral spinal fluid. it's in mamleian brain um but we don't know how it works. We don't know its structure or its sequence or anything like that. So

we're working with University of Florida new nautics um to basically to isolate and characterize uh this peptide and try to understand the regulatory system that controls DMT levels. what the switch or the slider, right? And so the idea being that u we can if we understand this regulatory system, we can learn how to hack it. And so rather than giving someone injecting someone with DMT, we rather we can inject them with a small amount of a

peptide for example um that will allow them to naturally slide into be induced into the DMT state and and kept there for you know long periods of time. So we call this endodmtx or edmtx. >> Is any of this playing with fire? Like you know I think about we're you know we now can split the atom. We you know know the genetic code of you know humans. So we're still discovering stuff there but you know we're we're starting to crack that. And then we have we have the ability to if you find some peptide

where you can you know just modulate this and even with the the the uh introvenous stuff you can modulate it on and off. Is there something actually adaptive about not being in control of it and whoever set up, you know, whatever world we're in, you know, having having set it up in the in the right sort of way, the sort of enthropic principle or something. It's it's it it exists in sort of perfect amounts. >> Well, you could take that. Many people think that, right? And that's a very

cautious attitude to take. But there's nothing natural about extracting from mimos hostilus root bark with sodium hydroxide and and um and zippo lighter fluid. You know, this is this is this is a you're employing chemistry. You're employing technology to do this. So >> So if if that was the case, then I would you'd stop at Iawaska and even not even IASA because that itself is a technology. So then then you're back to well you're back to not knowing what DMT is because you can't just ingest it. So there's no you can't just consume the

the naturally occurring source of DMT. There's no way to do it. >> Right. You can't do it. Uh you have to either combine it with with this monoamine oxidase inhibitor uh and boil it down or you have to extract it. And so I don't see why one particular technology, one particular um way of using DMT should be seen as the the be all and end all of it. Um, so okay, we can extract it. This seems to me a stepping stone on the

way to further development. And I just think that the that Rick Strasman's pure, you know, pharmace pharmaceutical grade DMT injected directly in the bloodstream was a step beyond extracting plant um, smoking or vaporizing plant extracts. And then now I think the DMTX is just the next iteration along that path. And ultimately, I think, you know, I don't know where this is going, but I don't I've never got the sense that, well, we need to stop here. This is the way to use DMT. I don't I think that doesn't really make any sense to me.

>> Um, so I think in the future, who knows how we're going to be using DMT? Will there be combinations of molecules that we we're using? Will we be dispensing as I said with molecules altogether with exogenous molecules and using hacking our own um endogenous DMT production system and then you would I can imagine a future where your you lie in a pod and all of your bodily needs are taken care of you're fed uh you might you know your oxygen supply is managed then your body

may be cooled down um your waste products are dealt with um and you spend days weeks months significant portions of your your in a pod. Yeah. Uh and to you, you would be interacting with and you know, >> which is by the way what we could be in >> Like that's you know, we could be in the matrix and we could just wake up and you're in some pod or whatever of jelly and you could have >> whatever the hyperexpanded version of

DMT that ports you into this world or whatever, [laughter] right? >> So it's like you end up in this sort of babushka doll model of reality. >> That's true. Or it could be that you're actually returning uh and that actually going to the pod is the way to return to >> your back back to the pod. And people that's kind of interesting because >> they say it's realer than real, right? >> Realer than real. So this is actually you're in a pod now and then when you go into the pod whatever and raise the DMT levels, you actually wake up in back and

>> and it goes to Plato's cave where it's like all we're seeing now is sort of similacra. In fact, in the Matrix, the movie, he's looking at a book and it's I think it's Jean Bodilard or whatever. This French, you know, Bo Bjallard, that's right. Um, you know, Simulac and Simulation or whatever. And it's like, you know, it's clearly the Wowski siblings. They, um, you know, were paying homage to this sort of, you know, postmodern author that's writing about, >> Simulac. It's just so so fascinating. >> Yeah. Yeah. And people do describe very

a very common feeling when they enter the DMT space is one of I'm back. Welcome and they, you know, the lights are flashing and it's like welcome home. What do you mean welcome home? >> You do like a life review, >> right? And it's like this very strong sense of dja vu like I've been here before. Not only have I been here before, but this is my true home. So maybe that's what's happening. Maybe we are on a path towards the state where we return. And does it does it look like lying in a pod and closing your eyes and

uh raising your DMT levels in your brain through some technology? Maybe. Maybe it's something else that we don't yet >> I think you know consciousness is a sort of it's a reduction mechanism on a default state of greater omniscience or something. And so I think it's this is is consciousness locally produced or is it sort of transmitted and ported into a receptor that's inherently limited? And I would I would say the latter. >> Um but it you know yeah it does bring up all these all these sorts of question

but it goes back to this sort of Plato thing where [snorts] >> in all these sort of mystery rituals across time and space whether you know um they deal with psychedelics or not. Sometimes they just deal with sheer amounts of pain like putting your hand in a glove full of bullet ants or whatever. you are temporarily if the if biology is a is a collapsing function on a default state of greater omniscience, you're killing that collapsing function temporarily and the person >> experiences sort of greater consciousness and awareness. And you'd

expect this more sort of muted like, oh, it all just shut off and that now I'm back or I got turned back on, but it's not. the mystery ritual kills the collapsing function and you get this sort of greater, you know, ontological reality and then you come back and there there's always this translation function issue. I think William James was like writing in his diary about like, you know, some some trip he had had or something and like you you end up writing mumbo jump like just, you know, gobblygook. It's like impossible to

>> Yeah. And Terren McKenna used to say, "A secret is not something untold. It is something that cannot be told. >> Cannot be told. Oh, I that is beautiful. >> Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? Awesome. >> I wish I thought of that. [laughter] >> But the unglishable and you have to you you have to have the direct experience. You can't you can bring back fragments, lower dimensional projections of this space and talk about it to some extent, but you you cannot. And this is why it's

so difficult spending my life talking about DMT is is what I really should say is just just go there and then get back to me. Um because people can't comprehend when I'm talking about entities or strange other worlds that in their head they're seeing this 1970s science fiction movie with little green men on on a globe. um they don't there's no way for them to even conceive of what's actually going on in my head when

I'm talking about this thing because it's unglishable, >> you know, and so trying to English the unglishable to f the uneffable the ineffable put it like that is is is very very difficult. Um um but but it's not a completely hopeless t at least I can explain to people why okay there are certain aspects of this space that that that make it impossible and that mean that that um the only conclusion we can draw from that is that there's more going on

there's more going on here than we can explain. Uh if people come away from my work with that, then >> I've kind of done my job. And the rest happens with a glass pipe and um you know, inhaling a couple of lungfuls of DMT vapor. That's the only 100% >> conversion technique. >> I know. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's no it's like a lot if you're studying any of these fields, the work is actually in translating your ontology to the average person. It's not

>> it's it's also in you know working out the ontology itself but it's it you have to do both otherwise you end up on an island completely you know like and there's just no interface with you know the rest of the world so is is there something about DMT >> where you know I think it it it shows up right when you die is that right and then does it show up at the womb in the womb around like I remember reading Rick Rick Straman's uh you know DMT spirit molecule and he talks about it being maybe a part of identity formation is that are th these things possible or has

that been debunked because this was you know like probably 20 years ago he was writing this >> well it's not been debunked I mean I think it's often the idea so the DMT the spirit molecule came from Rick Strasman's idea that it's released at the point of death and is like >> provides the conduit by which the soul exits the body and enters the afterlife this is a very obviously mystical spiritual hypothesis um but it's often it's often repeated as if it's fact, right?

There's, you know, DMT is produces dreams in it's released in small amounts and then large amounts you sleep. >> But both of these are hypothesis. Um, >> so we don't know that. >> We don't know that. However, >> um, the dream thing I don't think makes any sense because most dreams are not anything like DMT. So people who think they're going to have a dreamlike experience when they take DMT, I'm sorry, but it's not going to be anything like any normal dream. >> Um, so I don't and there's no evidence that DMT is produced during sleep. So

that one I think is just that was just again a hypothesis put out by a guy called Jace Callaway in the 1980s. Terrence McKenna often repeated it perhaps giving a he was a little bit more definitive than he should have been about that. Uh, but then the the dying thing is more interesting. um whether or not it provides the means by which you can enter the afterlife, that's a different question. That's more of a metaphysical question. I don't think science is really going to get to the bottom of that. But the idea that it's released at the point of

death, actually there is good evidence now that it could be. I don't think it's the pineal gland. And the pineal gland is what Stasman thought. Um the pineal gland is a very very tiny gland. It's about this big, the end of my little finger. It produces nanogs of of melatonin. It's it's not set up to pump out large amounts of DMT, enough DMT to cause a breakthrough experience. But as I said, it's DMT is two steps from tryptophan. So, you know, other cells in the brain,

potentially all neurons in the brain could produce DMT. You don't need to rely on the pineal. And some recent studies showed some interesting things. Firstly that um DMT levels in rodents this was so not humans but still mammals >> uh DMT levels uh in in awake living um rodents were about the same as other neurotransmitters like serotonin and >> So it's not tiny amounts. It's not a

kill them. Right? So when they kill these rats, they they actually have a technique now called microdialysis where they're able to measure in real time DMT levels in a living rat, which wasn't available, you know, all these decades ago when these hypothesis were originally proposed. But now they can. So they can measure DMT in the brain of a a rodent. Uh and then they kill the rodent and as the rodent dies, DMT >> rise, they spike. Um, now and you also

see this with other neurotransmitters by the way. So it's not just DMT, but still, okay, DMT levels are rising. That's in line with Strasman's model. No one's done that with a human. So if you could get permission with somebody who was end of life, um, you know, perhaps on a life support machine. >> Yeah. And and during the dying process, could you get permission from them or their family members to u to draw their blood? That would be an experiment that could be done. Ethically, it's difficult obviously, great, but yeah,

but it could be done, right? Uh, and what's interesting about DMT is that other studies have shown that when you take neurons, so neurons are very sensitive to oxygen. They need oxygen, you deprive a neuron of oxygen, it dies. Um this is why strokes where you you lose blood supply to certain areas of the brain are so devastating because if you don't restore blood supply very very quickly areas of the brain die and you end up with severe disabilities or >> Um what's interesting is that in a oxygen hypoxic oxygend deprived

initiates a a cascade of intra intracellular signaling that seems to somehow protects the neuron. Um so you can imagine during the dying process uh as your respiratory system is collapsing. Blood supply to the brain is diminishing. Your brain is being starved of oxygen. DMT ramps up and should you survive the DMT has protected your brain during that period where you were dying. >> Does that make sense? Yeah. >> And now it doesn't answer the question

of why. >> So like prolong it like it bridges the neurons to your survival state or something. It gives them a little >> gives them a little wiggle. Exactly. So the rest of the body can survive if you kind of resuscitate it for example. >> Um or your heart restarts or whatever. Uh, but your brain that want that's going to be in trouble. So it needs a bit of extra protection. Whoa. >> So the DMT seems to be doing that. >> So that fits in with the dying process. So maybe that's why it's released during death. It doesn't answer of course why it send why this molecule also just

happens to transport you to this alternate reality. So clearly there's a connection there. Does that mean um that DMT has this kind of dual function? It's protecting the brain during the dying process. Uh but if you actually do die, it also allows you to directly uh move into whatever happens after you die. Maybe maybe you are getting a glimpse. I mean that's not a particularly nice thought the idea of going permanently into the

DMT space. I mean it's >> I don't you know that I guess that's where the preparation comes in of of working within this space because it is kind of shocking and horrifying for many people. Uh but maybe that's why it's important to work with DMT whilst you're still alive because you're going to this is the kind maybe this is where you're going to go after you die. I don't know. That's pure speculation. Yeah. >> But so so in short, the whole DMT spirit molecule thing started as a pure speculation and now >> okay, it all seems to hang together. The

idea of DMT be released during the dying process which is kind of cool. >> Yeah, it's fascinating. GMO Borgagen at University of Michigan. She studies stuff around, you know, endogenous DMT receptors in the brain and stuff, but she also studies terminal lucidity, which I find very interesting. this idea that sometimes somebody can be in like a coma for a long time and then right before they die they seem to sort of wake up be extremely alert and like back

to their old selves or have dementia and right before they it's fascinating sort of um phenomenology. Uh does that have anything to do with DMT? I just I found it interesting that she both studies DMT and she looks into this or is that just a coincidence? >> I don't know if it's a coincidence. It might not be a coincidence whether this um this terminal lucidity has anything to do with DMT or is something else. I mean it might DMT might be part of it. I mean as I said you get lots of >> quite dramatic changes in neural

activity and these electrical storms and uh increases in various neurotransmitters and neuromodulators during the dying process. So it's it's it you know it's probably some emergent effect from all of this happening and DMT is just a part of it. M that's my guess but I don't really know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Do you think you know Aldis Huxley famous British British author but also kind of psychonaut. He um >> he I think at the end of his life was uh was dying and he asked his wife to uh

give him an extremely high dose of LSD. >> That's right. >> And um he also said something very interesting which I want to get your take on. He said that in the 21st century we would see a religion uh sort of induced by more mass psychedelic use and people would have more of an individual connection with like almost a gnostic connection with God and the universe through these psychedelics. Do you think that that will happen? You know, sort of the Timothy Liry like if you had LSD in the tap water sort of thing. Yeah, I

[sighs and gasps] I mean a religion I'm slightly fearful of the word >> um in that it is a set of doctrines, a set of prescribed beliefs. Um so I would that this this doesn't take the form of a religion. Um you you see that kind of thing happening with DMT specifically uh certain groups of people often quite

influential who have decided that they've got a handle on things. They understand what DMT represents and they understand the entities and they understand how it connects to reality and how we should use DMT and all of this. and then they bring in followers and there are a number of small pockets. I mean nothing ever become that's kind of consumed the space in any way. The DMT kind of community if you want to use that word. Uh but I but but

I think the truth is that it's very difficult to not become I wouldn't say religious but spiritual mystical to accept that actually there's more to reality and you know you you are confronted with that it's undeniable when you take DMT that there's more to reality um and that we are but a very small fragment of reality. And when when large numbers of

begin to accept that, then the question is is well what what do we do with that? Um you know what do we what do we do with an elf as McKenna used to say like how do we take that and move with it? Does it require >> Does it require some kind of religious doctrinal structure or not? I don't

>> I don't know. I mean, that's a question that that that bothers me. Like, what what is this all about? Where's this all going? bothers me too because I I I think I have the same inclinations as you which is to directly experience to push the boundaries on these things and to sort of like really know stuff for yourself to the extent you can >> and then I wonder if it's sort of this horseshoe thing where you start off like super ignorant then you seek truth in

some like more objective sense about you know metaphysical reality and then you realize there's like some overload or something like this is actually not adaptive for like a single human to know. And it's really all about like leading a good life on earth and understanding kind of the the the bounds of of our of our lives and our epistemology and then you become sort of religious and you realize how adaptive religion is or something, >> Yeah. I mean that's it's like the path will reveal itself. I think I try not to

think too far ahead of where this is going because I don't know if I'm being completely honest. Um but I think we just keep moving forward carefully um with humility. Um, and I think the the the whole DMTX stuff, in my opinion, has has been just another step along that path of using this molecule, trying to understand it as much as we can, not going in with assumptions about what

we're dealing with or what the what the the teiology is. You know, what is the the the ultimate aim of all of this? I don't I don't I speculate uh and what it might look like, but I don't know. Um I don't know if it's possible for us to know at this point. we there could be some kind of phase transition that's that's necessary to take place before we can even comprehend. I mean, we don't really know what the next five years is going to look like. People are speculating on with AI and stuff, but I don't think anyone really knows where we're headed. >> I agree.

>> It's always the sort of some adjacent surprise or something. It's never the whenever people make predictions, I'm always skeptical. Like these sort of quote unquote futurists that sort of grift off of some, you know, for sure, you know, future vision that never it never manifests the way they >> sort of say. >> do you believe in God? >> Well, that came from left field. >> Talk about religion. >> Do I believe in God? Well, I'm going to give the kind of the obvious answer,

which is how do you define God? >> Going to fire that question back at you. You know, how do you define God? When people say, do you believe in God? Well, the God that is in your head is probably quite different to the God in my head. So, I could answer that yes, I could answer that no, and be truthful in both cases depending on on how you define God. But you could use that sort of postmodern breakdown of language to like, you know, retort any sort of question. That's true. And I'm not

trying to be an annoying postmodernist. >> No, no, I get it. God [laughter] God is especially undefinable. >> Jordan Peterson or something. >> God Peter Peterson's hilarious because he hates the postmodernists, but he is so postmodern in the way he speaks. He speaks he's so like he hate he thinks that all that stuff you know fukco or whatever is the reason that like societyy's in decline and then when you call him out and you debate him on this stuff it's it turns into this postmodern gobbleygook where he's like what did you stake your life on [laughter] what are

you talking about dude like you're you are making no sense >> but in this case I think it's valuable because people do have different conceptions of God now if you mean do I mean a higher being that created the universe that we that we that we should then no I don't believe in that. >> But do I believe that there is some kind >> intelligence that is [clears throat] nonhuman, non-physical that we can't directly interact with normally perhaps? Um that has been around a lot longer than we have. Um

well, I can't help but believe that. I mean I've when you when you smoke DMT, you interact with such intelligences. Do I think there's one grand intelligence? Yeah. That that subsumes all of these? Maybe. Maybe. Um maybe God is con, you know, you could take the the more >> vidant or ancient Hindu uh answer that question, which is to say, well, God is everything. God is consciousness. God is the ultimate reality. There is nothing that isn't God. >> I like that idea as well. And that we

are all the million. Um who was it? Um, GK Chester, GK Chesterton, [snorts] >> uh, it talks about the million masks of >> Um, um, and that's we're all masks of God. You know, the eye with which I see God is the the eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me. >> And that we're all expressions of and we there's no escaping that. we're all part of and expressions of >> uh masks of the ultimate reality which

you might call God. I a Hindu might call Brahman. Somebody else um might call the ultimate reality that which is um that idea I I I kind of um sympathetic towards as well. And I kind of feel like that I think consciousness is fundamental in some very deep profound way. I don't think we're going to explain consciousness in terms of physicalism or in terms of um neural activity or anything like that. I think

it's beyond that. I think it's absolutely fundamental. And so yes, I the answer to your question is I believe in God, but perhaps not the God as as as you might define it, but as the God as I would define it. What what do you think about these um this buddy Danny who does these DMT laser defraction experiments? I'm sure you get asked this all the time where people take DMT there's some sort of you know laser intersection and then they look at it and they claim to see some

sort of almost like code that they I mean that's their interpretation like a code that is you know um the computation behind the universe or something. What what do you think about this? Well, do I think that he is and and other people are seeing the fundamental code that runs our reality? No, I don't think that at all. I don't I think the idea that that reality is computational or is some kind of code, okay, that's possible. The idea that you could look at it and it would look like

characters that we recognize like Japanese katakana and uh and Hebrew and and stuff like this, well, that doesn't make any sense. Um, that's what they're seeing. And it's no coincidence that the Matrix movie we're talking about, I mean, the code rain, the famous green running digital imagery, that's built from Japanese katakana. So, it seems like a little bit on the nose there. A little bit. So, no, I don't think I think it doesn't make any sense to me is is the broad thing. And I also think the

problem is that lasers, it's an inconvenient coincidence, shall we say, that when you shine a laser on a wall without DMT, um it exhibits some very unusual optical effects. So it forms this interference pattern um on the retina that looks like kind of a matrix of speckles or matrix of points of light that can appear to extend beyond the surface. This is all without DMT. Now, when you add DMT to the mix, you see this matrix

of characters and geometric forms that appear to extend well beyond the surface. And you have to believe that these are completely unrelated. That's just a coincidence if you are to accept that you're seeing actual code here. Um so I think my working hypothesis which might well be wrong uh is that but needs to be eliminated uh is that this these this matrix of sensory you basically got a matrix of points of light which on the retina which act like a sensory scaffold

around which in the under the influence of DMT you you see complex forms and and characters because characters are very common in the DMT space uh as are complex geometric structures. So I think it's a very interesting fascinating phenomenon and and very important one in that it allows you to isolate a particular fragment of the broader DMT phenomenology. This the the reporting of code and geometric uh forms that I will get on board with uh I think it should

repeatable physical thing and then people see you know ostensibly similar you know a similar phenomena in the form of whatever these symbols are whatever which is like that's cool I mean even that is sort of somewhat unprecedented >> yes but then again the the laser light is providing a very regular pattern of sensory inputs >> um so that account and the fact that >> but you don't see the symbols when you're not on DMT, right? >> You don't see the symbols. Exactly.

>> So, that's cool. That's interesting. >> That's interesting. Um, but then again, are people seeing people say the line that you always hear from these these laser people is, oh, everyone sees exactly the same thing. >> Now, what does that mean? That everyone sees code >> or everyone sees characters. Fine. Does everyone see exactly the same characters in the same order at the same time? No. We don't know that. There's no way. No one's demonstrated that. It's not even possible. It's not even known if that's possible because apparently they move

very very quickly. So are people seeing the same thing or are people kind of seeing the sort of the same thing? But because again the language problem um I can't take a you can't take a photograph of this code and so you can't compare. You have to rely on language and you have to rely on little sketches and things that people do. But but there's no way so far to demonstrate that two people even at the same time are actually seeing exactly the same code. Uh and people as I said people have been

describing code and digits and characters uh in uh in the DMT state for for decades. So it's like what's unique and interesting and important about this is that it allows you to kind of isolate that particular aspect of and reliably uh view that particular aspect of of the broader DMT visual phenomenology. Uh but anything beyond that to make you know deep deep conclusions about the fundamental structure of our reality

that you're seeing the code that runs our reality. I think that is a very very large uh leap and I don't think there's any there's nothing in the the effect the phenomenon that would would lead one to draw that conclusion. You have to start by eliminating >> lots of other more mundane hypotheses which takes time, it takes money, it takes very careful experimental setup and you know performing of various

experiments to be able to eliminate um the influence of this laser interference speckle effect as it's called. Uh but that needs to be done because otherwise it's going to be private revelation. They're going to be people who do it and >> and they're going to form a group um who all believe in this but they have no they're not able to demonstrate or prove that this is what they are actually seeing but they all are have convinced themselves that's what they're seeing. They're seeing the fundamental code of reality and you you get forms of kind of

religion if you like uh where you have the believers and you have the non-believers. Um I'm not ready to kind of fall in with with the believers just >> Yeah. What do you think of modern uh UFO disclosure? Do you track that at all? Do you think it reduces down to these sort of altered states of consciousness or do you believe we have saucers and you know hangers at places like Area 51? Well, I mean the Area 51 I mean that's cool stuff, right? I mean I don't I'm not an expert on it. So I don't I follow certain things, right? When Bob Lazar

speaks when he's on Rogan, I watched that. I thought that's fascinating stuff. But I don't know. I don't know what to make of it all. Um um and so I kind of focus on my thing. My thing is the not the the shimmering metallic discs in the sky which might not be physical of course. I mean they might also be they also seem to kind of occupy this space between the physical and the non-physical the forming feats that seem to be >> um beyond what a physical object could

achieve. And I think that's perhaps gives us a clue as as to their nature. And and we might be dealing with intelligences that don't necessarily exist, you know, as physical wet bodied beings on other star systems and are traveling through vast distances to to reach our planet, but actually occupy some kind of space that is lying parallel, hidden within amongst whatever, you know, orthogonal to whatever our reality and that they can interface in certain ways with our >> or physics is information theoretic like

you write about with, you know, John Wheeler or whatever And you know a bunch of people sort of contemplate you have all this you know wolf ram physics and stuff computational physics then what if they are just the programmers of our reality like they they they understand the source code in a way that we don't and there's a lot in physics that kind of points to that there's like >> you know you have um what like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where you know you can't measure position and momentum you know simultaneously in very accurate ways like one gets more fuzzy as the other gets more accurate. that

almost looks like a like a computational caching function or something where only so much can be stored in local memory, you know, or like anthropic principle where if plank's constant were slightly different like we wouldn't really have an atmosphere on Earth like there are all these sort of weird goldilock or like for theory where like you know light between two you know points or whatever it takes the most optimal computationally efficient path. There are all these things like that fib fibonacci sequences and golden ratios

and stuff. It's like how do people code? They just transport you know code library. I mean now it's probably mostly like co-pilots and AI but you know back in the day it was like you'd like find like libraries of code and you would you know you'd transport code chunks or whatever and like that's how they so it's like you would reuse geometrically efficient patterns like over and over again and like that just exists like across nature >> exactly in the brain as well. I mean the brain again is this you have these

repeating computational the fundamental these columns you know the brain it's like this the cortex you have all of these cylindrical columns which is the basic computational unit of the brain and you stitch them all together um and and all of the the the function uh of your of your cortex arises from the interaction of all these basic uh computational units. So it's at every level at every level you see that of stitching together of of simpler units

that from which higher order behaviors emerge and that goes all the way down perhaps to the ground of reality itself. you have these very simple rules. um you know and it might you know running a universe might be extremely simple if you know the rules or if you find a way to run all possible this is something I explore in alien information theory the idea that if you if you if you know all possible rules which is just you know the permutation on all possible rule all possible rule sets you just run them all

you have the computational power you run all of them and some most of them do absolutely nothing some of them do something a little bit interesting and then die out and then maybe a tiny tiny fraction. Um you start to develop layered complexity, emergent complexity and we just happen to be in one of those hundred trillion trillion or whatever universes where where the rule set gives rise to interesting information. >> Yeah. Well, Wolram has this you know

Steven Wolffra has this sort of institute where he studies these computational versions of physics and he has this idea of computational irreducibility. Yeah. >> And there are things that you cannot take as first principle, you know, a priori concept. You need to run a program in order to get that result. And you have cellular automata and Conway's game of life and all these things where if you set some initial conditions, yeah, maybe you end up with some final branch that works or whatever, but like there are a lot of branches that don't. Um, and then you have to ask this like

meta question of if, you know, is our earthly conflict, you know, Trump just took out, you know, uh, three, uh, Iranian nuclear sites with with, you know, some B2s. Is all of that existing, you know, against some subrosa backdrop of like some timeline adjustment conflict or something [laughter] like is that the true cosmic, you know, the like uponad style war or whatever where you know if you really think about like what's the

most scarce commodity? It's not gold. It's not like like you know the last 50 years of American foreign policy has been like sort of dictated by like you know crude oil or whatever. Like it's not those things, right? It's uh it's >> And it's timelines and it's like literal like you know macro like events that that occur on on on macro scales. >> So like is [laughter] are these entities sort of fighting over that or something? >> Answer that question now. Andrew,

>> Yeah. Who knows? Well, thank you so much for uh gonna end on that absurd question. [clears throat] Thank I really appreciate this, man. And I Everybody should go buy your book, Death by Astonishment. Anything else you want to >> plug or promote or >> Yeah, I mean, so Death by Astonishment, that's the book about DMT and describes the history of science's struggle to make sense of it. So, if you're really interested in what DMT is about and why it's such a enigmatic and mysterious molecule, read death by astonishment. Well, also if you're anyone who's interested in DMTX,

uh at the moment it's like it's a small number of academic institutions that are running DMTX, but we actually are developing a a retreat center and a research center in the Caribbean. What's it St. Vincent and the Grenardines? That's it. Um so we have a re research center and retreat center that we're developing now. Um, and the idea being is not just doing research with DMT, but also allowing anyone who wants to to come and experience DMTX uh in a

beautiful tropical, you know, five-star environment with all of the preparation uh perhaps several different doses dose levels before the the kind of the the breakthrough DMTX experience. All of the setting is just beautiful and the integration afterwards. It will be a unique institute. >> Do you have any adverse experiences with DMTX? Anybody? >> So far, so far um all of the the subjects at Imperial College got through it. Um there was no

>> major problem. It was very intense. >> Um maybe some of them didn't kind of like it and didn't do the full >> set of of experiments, but no like severe, you know, physiological adverse effects. And and of course we will >> no severe mental, no like this really [ __ ] me up. >> Nothing like that. Of course on the island we will have anesthesiologists, we have psychiatrists and nurses. Uh so if people want to sign up they can go to new nautics.org au t i cs new nautics.org uh and they

can find out uh more about it there or elucis mind. So Elus is the actual name >> of the um um of the retreat. So it's like we're bringing >> the new Elus. >> The new Elusis. Uh yeah. So elusismmind.com and they can also, you know, have a look at what the retreat center is going to look like. So So yeah, that's kind of an exciting thing to be able to to kind of bring DMTX to anyone who wants to kind of experience >> Super cool and exciting. It's funny. I

think you know Albert Hoffman who discovered LSD Stannislav Grath and Carl >> all maybe this is a rumor but I think they wanted to create a new elusis and so it's cool that you're naming it that >> it won't be with Urgot uh but we do have a we we have a license from the the government uh invincing the Grenardines to work with any drug that we want. So we so it's not implausible that we might think about you know urgot alkaloids and perhaps recreating um the the true

illinium mysteries and there are people now working on actually reconstructing that and trying to work out the exact chemistry involved which is >> and rescue is really trying [snorts] >> exactly and there are people that followed on from his work as well chemists and pharmarmacologists so it's it's an exciting time to be interested in psychedelics and an exciting very interesting time to be alive more generally of course but >> I agree everything's spinning out and getting weird but it's interesting um okay Andrew I really appreciate this man this is a lot of fun and um go by death

by astonishment and alien information theory and uh yeah hopefully we can do this again at some point >> awesome thank