“An 80 Foot UFO Abducted Us On a Lake!” -Jim Weiner & Charlie Foltz | MEMBERS RELEASE

light went like that. Whoa. Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind us and I was like, oh, Christ. We are not going to make it back. Keep going. Don't look back. And then I'm struggling to get up and I see this face [music] bending down to look into my eyes and they began a clinical examination of

So, you were laying horizontally. What did the table feel like? Very sterile, an emergency [music] room setting in a way. What did the beings look like? A bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like [music] us, slit [snorts] area in the chin. Are you freaking out? Freaking out? I'm beyond freaking freaked out. And then they came for me. I was

terrified. He kind of like reached up in the air with his long, thin, articulated arms. He had [music] this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey And they put one on on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs. >> Oh my god. On his legs for several years, hair didn't grow there. It was like bald patch on his legs. >> Whoa, really? And bald shins. And his identical twin brother Jack had tumors

growing in the exact spots. [music] Didn't even get a damn T-shirt. I mean No souvenirs. Highly possible. Nothing too unusual about that.

both so much for being here. I have uh followed your story for many years, and so it's an honor to be in person uh with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind-blowing in 1976 in Allagash in Maine. Yeah, on the Allagash water system, yeah. And it was you two, and it was His identical twin >> twin brother Jack. And then another guy. >> And another guy, another friend. And okay, so let's set the scene. What is

going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid-20s. Well, um I was uh college student at the time going to college on the GI bill. Um and my goal at that time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children. So I was a dual major. I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the 3 months where I wasn't teaching I could do artwork to supplement my

Well, uh that was where I was with my Jack had and Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art I think that year the year before. >> Jack did. I never I didn't go to I wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that time I was at the program in artisanry which was a a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin

Institute. And so you guys are both artists. What are you like? >> All All of us were artists all four of >> All four? And what what what are you like personality-wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy or are you sort of humble and quiet or >> Yeah we're average mid-20s you know males you know. Uh we were enjoying the experience of the wilderness. Uh we had uh started planning the trip the previous year. Uh acquiring gear just

slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need plus the meals ready-to-eat uh type of pack pre-packaged food that we brought along with us as well. And you guys were pretty good outdoorsmen right? You had some skills when it came to this kind of surviving out outdoors on your >> Yeah kind of I mean >> fishing out in the country you know. Doing fishing camping that sort of thing. Where did you live at the time?

Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts? >> No we were living in Boston >> Yeah I was going to college. I was living in Brookline actually at that And the twins were my next-door neighbors literally. Yeah. Just on on the other side of the driveway was their >> So you guys have known each other for a very long time. >> Over 50 years. Yeah over a half century >> Yeah I mean at that time I was studying uh ceramics at the program in artisanry. I was working with two amazing um potters. One's name was Bill Sax, who

was a potter in Western Massachusetts, out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named uh Rich What was Rich's Richard Hirsch. Huh. Who was a master raku potter. >> And are you guys best friends? Oh, yeah. What, him and me? Yeah. I don't know this guy. Sounds like a one-way situation. >> Evil brother. Yeah, sorry Jim, you got the short end of the stick here. >> Yeah. I'm used to [laughter] it.

lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation, what equipment we need, what clothing, >> being prepared for the weather because it was at the end of the summer and as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, "If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change." >> And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot and dry. It was one

of the hottest August at the end of the year that they had had. So, we had gear for a the next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had. Mhm. we, as I said, had climbed Mount two days prior to beginning our canoe And uh when we were climbing up the mountain, I had to take my blue jeans, I

had to take a knife, and make them into because we were so soaked with sweat uh from climbing the mountain that our clothing or mine was like grabbing me and restricting my movements. >> Hiking in jeans, never a good idea. Well, that's true. You can make them shorts, though. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got innovative. So, I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of inextricably linked with it. You can't kind of separate it is just the

landscape of Allagash itself. >> Oh, absolutely. It's beautiful up there. Describe it. Well, originally the Allagash water system, which is now a national park system, was originally part of the logging Prior to logging trucks going out into the forest, you sent teams out in the forest. They would cut the trees, put them on the lake, float them, and that was they were moved down the Allagash River all the way to

like Fort Kent and Allagash uh the village of Allagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence's it there? Or St. Francis is it St. Francis? St. >> That separates Canada from the US. And uh they would run the logs down Uh we ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip, we met an old logger. Uh his name was Harry Smith.

Really interesting character. Uh told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you had to do to unjam them, and that was incredibly dangerous cuz you had to get out there pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. uh the Allagash system uh still has part of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest load

up with limb lumber or logs and and take them out that way as well. And now it is all just a >> Yeah, it looks very primitive. I mean, you don't at least when we the places we were at, you didn't see cuts, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like >> There's no houses along the lake. >> wilderness. I mean, gray herons are flying over all the

You see moose, deer. Yeah. Uh loons. >> Bears, all kinds of wildlife. >> stuff. You have to make sure you keep your food stuffs off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. rangers come every day to collect your trash, so that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do when before you even go there is you have to They only have designated campsites, and so you have to tell

the rangers when >> What your itinerary is. >> what your itinerary is like, so in case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to look for you. >> So um and they come and check you. The minute you land on the lakes, when we flew in, we flew in a bush plane. Um within minutes, two rangers came, and they come and they check your gear, they go through your gear to make sure you're not carrying any kind of contraband. >> Mhm. Because the Allagash runs into

Canada. Mhm. And they check to make sure that you have enough food >> food and and camping things to survive up in the wilderness, cuz we were there for what? 2 weeks? Yeah, 17 days on water. So, you know, they're they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway. And if you're not out at the end of like the 17 or 18 days, then then they start trying to find you. Had

either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life? Had you Oh, yeah. You had? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Describe. Jack and I when we were kids growing We grew up in the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. Mhm. We used to have things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room. And we'd wake up in the night and there would be something pulling the covers off our >> Whoa. Um or we'd see

fit like figures moving around in the They um we saw uh Balls of light. >> Balls of light floating through the house on occasion. >> Did you ever communicate with any >> Oh, yeah, we did with our parents and they used to say, "Oh, you're having nightmares. Shut up." >> communicate with any of the beings or No, no, we went straight to the bottom of the bed. Scared scared shitless. And your parents thought it was a ghost, didn't you? Harry Harry the ghost. >> to call him Harry the ghost. Uh He used to call our names sometimes. Like I'd be

in in the room doing something and I'd hear this A real deep voice. And I thought it was I always thought it was my father. Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family? >> No, my father built the house in itself. >> Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to this? But my parents um saw uh a being in their bedroom one night. >> A hooded being in their bedroom. >> being? Which we never I never knew until

they would come to the house every other weekend or so. Back in those days, families like that's just what they did. Super random question, but do you know if you have Rh negative blood? >> There you go. >> Yeah, my brother and I are Rh negative. >> And you did, too, and your dad did. Not you. Your dad did, but you did. You do. >> have Rh negative. That's fascinating, because that's a commonality among experiencers, this missing protein that seems to, for whatever reason, >> Well, when we were when we were like

6 years old, we both broke our arms like within a day of one another. Like, when you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you, you know, wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one. >> some entanglement system. >> definitely entanglement there. Anyway, we had both broken our wrists. And uh, Opposite arms, too. >> Opposite arms. Same fracture location. >> those days, >> Literally entanglement. >> Yeah, in those days, doctors came to your home. We had a family doctor that, you know, would come to your home if you

called them. And so, I was in just unbelievable pain. I was in unbearable pain, so they called the doctor. And the doctor came to the house, and he said, "Well, I'm just going to knock them out, because if he can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out." So, he gave me a shot of something to knock me out, and a minute later, Jack goes out cold. >> sitting there, and the doctor they actually wrote it up. He wrote up a report, and they wrote it up in one of the local newspapers.

And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house. And they wanted to talk to my father and mother. And they claimed that they were from some >> institute somewhere that was studying twins and they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us. What institute? I don't know. What was >> Was it called the the Ryan table >> I don't remember the name of it. >> remember where it was? >> been um Duke. Duke? Do you remember the Ryan

>> have been the Ryan, but I'm not Don't quote me. But anyway, they claimed that >> This was So, they're 7 late late 50s. >> Yeah, well, the Ryan institute ended in >> It could have been. freaked out. And literally threw them both out of the house and said, "If you ever come here again or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will" What's fascinating because that time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to

MK Ultra, but also, you know, they were interested in UFO stuff, too. There's a guy named Andrija Puharich. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was an early kind of architect of MK Ultra. He was a Northwestern uh scientist and and uh I think he was a medical student there, uh but just got very interested in consciousness. And he had a place in Ossining in upstate New York, and he recruited what he called the space kids. And it was like a camp for high psi, you know, high psychic ability children. And

they would often, you know, channel these beings they would call the nine, these sort of, you know, alien entities. The first set of what really were the space kids were younger. Some of them were 7 years old up to 12 or in in in teens. Interesting. >> So, I wonder if you were, >> you know, being tracked by >> us. Was that Did Did eventually evolve into Montauk? So Montauk, I believe was Yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been Yeah, 50s, 60s. I believe that there was like this

machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book, but Preston something. >> Could be. I had I had the book at one time and I've given it away already. Yeah. But no, but that sort of so the I that uh whole the Montauk experiments, which we now think are probably real, uh you know, Stranger Things. And Stranger Things is you know, hit Netflix show, which is around the DOE and national labs basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with

them. And 11, this character in Stranger Things, which is like the biggest show in the world right now, is based on this. So >> I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. So maybe they were trying to recruit >> may have had they may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people at all. I don't blame >> So that happened when we were kids. And in 1973, in the spring of 1973, I was attending

Mansfield State College in Upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York State. Teachers College and I was I was an undergraduate there and um they were involved in this project with beavers. Mhm. Because um they were having problems with every time a big storm would come through, they'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river up there. I forget the name of

But it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside all around it. It's It's really up in an area Pennsylvania that's really wild. In fact, they they filmed the deer Deer Hunter movie, is that the name of it? Deer Hunter? Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can you can walk for 75 miles in any direction up there and you don't see a single house. It's really for you know, primitive. Interesting. Anyway,

I was I was um gotten they got me and two other friends of mine up there involved with this where they dropped they parachuted >> I know. They parachuted in beavers. >> Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water >> Which I thought was a great idea. Uh-huh. Cuz how else do you get into the water table when it's there's nothing there except trees and forest and so what we had to do, myself and my two friends, was and they

had other students doing this was we had to go out into like all these old logging roads and whatever and and find beavers and you know, mark them you know, put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine and we're driving around a little VW bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. We never I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back and it had just become night time and we were driving through

a cow some pasture. It was this huge pasture with two ruts for try tractor ruts in it. And we were driving and it was dark so that was but up there in that part of Pennsylvania that's um uh what they call the night sky places where like you can go out and look at >> Clear skies. Clear skies or you know, it's like where Virgin black. >> Virgin black, there's no light

And uh >> so we were driving across we were lost and we were driving across this pasture, this huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture there was a tree line. And so we were going towards this tree line and then I noticed, I looked up above the trees and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the little dipper except they were moving. And they were moving in a really strange way. It was like

instead of like just going in a constant plane pace or plane, they were tumbling like a slinky. They would this whole they were maintaining the the dipper shape. There was probably six or eight of these lights, they looked like, you know, bright bright stars but they were tumbling end over end and it was coming like right down towards where we were. And then we were like, I was like, what the heck

is that? [sighs and gasps] So I stopped the car, I said we got to get out and look at this thing. So the three of us got out of the car and we're we're watching this thing and it's just walking out of the sky like right for And then all of a sudden out of nowhere car comes opposite us on this tractor rut. So we're like, oh Jesus. So the car gets around us and then when when the at one point it

was like on a hill and when the car lights went up it it hit these lights up in the sky and then they coming down towards us and they started going parallel to us. And while they were they kept maintaining this thing except they were then they were changing shape. Like they were it was like they would go in at one point they were like a V-shape and then another point it was more like an amoeba type shape but that it just kept tumbling end

over end the whole time. So I said let's signal it because it was only you know a thousand maybe two thousand wasn't that far up in the sky. >> And so I I had a flashlight in my glove compartment I could took the flashlight out and I blinked the flashlight and all of a sudden one of these starlight lights like went off like a a big amber flash bulb and this like turned into like a tube of light almost like a blob of toothpaste kind of light

came out of it. And then it it did a a couple more tumbles and then it just This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. It was going like this tumbling and then all of a sudden it was it just reversed. It didn't stop and wait. You know one blink of an eye it just stopped and then reversed it just reversed itself and then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared. That was in 1973.

Fascinating. Yeah. Wow. So that was a year before or that was three years before this Allagash event. So you had had like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences multiple. Yeah except I we we never subscribed them to UFOs. UFOs I you grew up in you know I was grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania. >> just like ghosts or weird >> or you know lights in the sky. >> the sky you know could have been you know helicopters for all we knew you

know I mean I didn't know what it was and so we nobody talked about UFOs and those you know I grew up in a family that was Very conservative. So like we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened and then my father would say, "Oh, yeah, that's that's Harry. You don't worry about it. It's only Harry, the ghost." You know. So, he would casually he would dismiss it, but he would casually he had a name for this ghost because that's how much it would appear. >> We called him Harry. Interesting. Yeah.

Okay. So, you guys let's cut back to '76. You guys are at Allagash. You do this you know sort of beautiful landscape. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you, you know, to to camping out there. You get there. Uh at what point do you start canoeing? which was the first uh 3 days we were in northern

Maine. Went down to Millinocket uh and got some supplies. then climbed Katahdin, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Millinocket and we drove north and east of Baxter State Park to a outfitter at Shin Pond. And at Shin Pond uh a friend of ours, in fact the guy that came down this last Saturday

uh we were using one of his canoes. Uh friend of ours named Charlie had lent a Grumman uh aluminum canoe for our And had taken it to Shin Pond and this guy had had it strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So, he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and the canoe. That's all he could put in that little plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen Beetle that had a far

more complex instrument panel than this airplane had. That's It was I mean it was as simple as simple could be. You got a choke, you got an oil pressure gauge, and got a gas gauge, and that was it. Yeah, we had two canoes. The one that our friend loaned us and then we brought another >> Rented one, yeah. >> Describe your first anomalous sighting on the canoe. Well, the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lake system. We were on Chamberlain

Lake. And that is a lake that runs north-south, and we were going north. And we were trying to get up to the Allagash River uh or the Allagash Stream, which flows in from Allagash Lake. >> And that is totally primitive up there uh area. Uh the only way you can get up there is by polling up the river, and we didn't know how to pole. Uh but we attempted paddling and paddling, but didn't do us any good.

However, to get back to the first uh we had passed two teenagers on our way north. And they were fooling around on a little island. And we got up to this site called uh Mud >> And uh we didn't want to camp with other people. There were people across from us in a sheltered area from the wind. And

we had decided to take this one spot. But when we got up there, the wind was like just coming down on us like crazy. And we're like, "We don't want to be dealing with this all night long trying put our lean-to shelter together." Cuz all we had was a a big uh uh that we used as a tent, you know, cuz you can use tarps for multiple purposes and we were using it for shelter and

as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well, at any rate, uh the weather forced us across the lake uh where this other group of campers were and they had asked had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier and we told them where we had seen them and so they were getting worried because, you know, uh these two teenagers were member of their group and they were Well, and it had gotten dark by this time. So, out there, it's so black at night. You You can't really see

>> see your hand this far in front of your face. So, we were out with them as well looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water seeing if we could I find them. And they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned. Uh and a member of this other group said, "What the hell is that over there?" And we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light and it's moving like a balloon

moving very, very slowly. But it's like moving into this wind. So, I'm >> Yeah, it's just above the treetops. Yeah, I was trying to figure out like what the hell is that? Um but then we spotted these kids and so, okay. And we looked at this light and it wasn't there. So, >> at it through binoculars because it had When I saw the light, I noticed it had a a weird quality to it. How so? I it just didn't look right to me. It didn't It wasn't like a pure

It was more like a yellowish Mhm. and it it And there was just something about it that didn't seem right to me. So, I looked at it through binoculars and and then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went like that. Like a like a a lens closing in on itself and then it just vanished. And I thought, well, that's kind of weird, but I didn't think anything more about it

because we were we had to set up camp, so you know, it was just this weird light, but I had never seen a light do that before. Like implode in on itself. Wait 48 hours. >> You'll see it again. And what was odd, which we we didn't know at the time, but it was like the the direction that it was in line to us was over Eagle Lake. The area that we were camping at 2 days later. So it was almost like it

knew where you were going or Or it was like patrolling that area or something. It's patrolling the area. That's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fravor 2004 Nimitz incident and he says, you know, we were, you know, dispatched to go check out this Tic Tac object and then the Tic Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or something Or it had been there for a while because there was a there was a witness logger

who had witnessed the this same craft up in that same area that they were logging. Fascinating. Okay. So you guys kind of, you know, note that this is anomalous, but you don't you try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward. >> Well, I mean, we're not there to see it a a light disappear in the night sky. I mean we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. What happens when

you get back to camp? Well, well that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we were just turned in, got up the next morning and Mhm. continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Allagash Lake. >> Do you guys even talk about the first >> Not really at all. >> Okay. No. >> I mean, it was uh was like uh I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing, you know? >> So, you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, >> Yeah, I said, "Well, this is this this is a strange light." And when it kind of

winked out, I thought, "Well, that's kind of weird, but I mean, maybe maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something." And that's just the way it went. >> Right. Okay. So, then the next day after that, we had canoed tried to get to Allagash Lake, but found it impossible. We'd spent like 8 hours trying to go until we got to a point where we said, "Well, we're not even at the halfway We turned around and it took us uh

about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So, we set up camp uh right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake Portage area. So, it was a 3/4 of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. So, how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles

uh ran perpendicular to the canoe and uh then the four of us would just pick up the ends uh and with the canoe in between us and then walk the canoe over to the other Went back and retrieved the second canoe and then got out on the water and we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal. It's kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake towards the southern end of it. But, there was a canoe about, I

don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us, and that is where he bee- beelined straight to. So, we're like, "Well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore." So, we went to our which was Smith Brook campsite. We set up our camp for the night, and then we decided, "Hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement have a fish meal or So, we built a fire because it was

getting dark. So, we built a fire that we knew would burn for close to 3 hours. And went out on the lake, and we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water, and it took us maybe about 25-30 minutes to work our way through all this to get to the site that we were fishing which was maybe about 500 yards from our

campsite. Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. >> had was paddles and >> fishing poles and >> So, I'm sitting up in the front of the canoe, and you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, "What the F is that?" So, we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe,

and I see this aspirin tablet-sized white And I'm thinking, "That is the freaking moon, you moron." But, then I noticed that it was moving. Mhm. And it was moving faster than the moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here. And it's hundreds hundreds of yards away from us. And so, we just sat there bewildered looking at this thing. And

then, it kind of like makes a left turn. And then, it starts coming straight toward us. Totally silent. >> Yeah. And so, we're watching it and watching it. And then, we notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated. And this thing's only about 15 ft above the tops of the trees. Just coming straight toward us. And when it was about, uh, uh, less than 100 yd away from us directly

I thought, "I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it." So, I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned the light on, and then I three short, three long, three short. And then, this thing stopped. I mean, it just no sound whatsoever. It just stopped moving. And all of a sudden, this

>> Wow. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like, >> Wow. And how far away is it just a under 100 yd from me, when I flashed the flashlight, but when I dropped the flashlight, it was about 75 yards from us and closing. Wow, and so do you think it it reacted to this uh SOS flashlight? >> immediately. And it came closer. Yeah, and all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming, "Paddle, Charlie, And as I said, if I could have uh ran

across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would have been doing that. What um emotions are going through you guys at this point? Well, I was >> Self-survival. It's like we're I I do not want to deal with this out here. Yeah, I don't know what this is, but I I know as much as I really want to know at the moment. >> Cuz it was, you know, it was big. It was huge. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, uh uh-oh, that's not a helicopter, cuz it was absolutely silent. >> Yeah, it wasn't disturbing the trees or

the water. I mean, you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away. And this thing didn't make any noise at all, and it it had this weird kind of life to it, like it was roiling. This And The surface of the lighting of it >> this thing was like roiling. It was >> It was like it was a some sort of plasma Yeah, exactly. Yeah, something going on inside. >> Yep. Well, you know what it um the one of the things that impressed me the most uh that I recall about it

was you've seen halos around the moon, right? Sure. This thing had a halo around it as well. Mm. As it approached us, you could see the definition of this halo. Mm. And the the sphere itself you know, in constant motion. Yeah, and I remembered I'm I remembered um you know, we're like, "Paddle." Well, the other guy with us, he would he was just like catatonic. He just sat in the with the paddle across his legs.

>> his legs and just stared out. And we're paddle, paddle, paddle. And he just It's like, sort of help us a little here. So, >> name, by the way, this other guy who's >> Chuck. Chuck. Yeah. And um That's the reason I go by Charlie, so there was no confusion. >> And uh so, we're like, Chuck, paddle. And he just did sat there staring out into nothing. And So, It seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling till the time that Jack and Jim and I were standing on

the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach. Yeah. And uh this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake. Didn't Chuck also, prior to this, feel like you guys were being watched? He had >> That's what he said, yeah. He told us he said. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore at the camp was looking back to see where this thing was. Mhm. And I thought, well, it's

still like, you know, 70 yards away. Except it was like, instead of being back here, it was like right there. It was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ. We are not going to make it And then that's the last thing I remembered until we >> stopped at the our canoe >> campsite at the went up on the shore of the campsite and So, there's a little blackout period. Little sort of missing >> Well, yeah, but I mean in your memory, at least, where Well, I mean, but the

thing about it is is in total context, we weren't aware of anything like this at the time. At the time. But but now, recalling it, you remember this bright plasma-like object 75 yards away. >> Oh, no, no. We remembered the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night. >> And then and then you remember that and then it just sort of flashes directly to like you're going up on the shore and to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory. No, no. As a matter of fact,

I the I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire and that was all that I was that was my goal, my objective was to reach that site cuz that was the only indicator of where a campsite was. without that campfire, you know, the shoreline is identical at night. It's dark. When you're going on the shore and the campfire is in sight, do you guys feel differently physically

than kind of before you blacked out a little bit? >> Well, this was the kicker when we got to shore, the three of us were standing on this in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time, all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake, it ascended up and away at a 45° angle. Yeah, I remembered when we got onto the

shore turning around to see where it was and I remember it hovering right over the water and this cone of light was coming down onto straight down under it on the water. Really? Like it was there was a beam Like it was sitting on the lake of light and and it was close. I remember thinking if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock. And it was only about 40 ft above the surface of the water and the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass.

Easy. And was it always kind of white light or did it change colors? >> of a whitish yellow. What? The the the best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be going to a dark room with a 25 W light bulb. Mhm. Look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off, and then close your eyes. The afterimage that you have would be about as close to what we

saw as I can think of for example. Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of, you know, >> It zooms off. goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us. >> Yeah, when it went, it it flew weird. I remembered It reminded me of like when you have a Frisbee. Mhm. And you're tossing a Frisbee back and forth and sometimes the Frisbee will go And then it skips up. and then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again.

That's how this thing It was like it was going up a stairway. What happens when you get back to camp? Well, this is while we're in camp watching this thing going up. >> Okay. For some reason felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed. So I took the flashlight, which I was still holding in my hand once I had signaled it the second time. And I looked at the sweep hand on my watch, noting to where the sweep hand was, or the second hand.

Then I looked back up at this thing. And then it shot off into the night sky. I So, I didn't observe it skipping. I mean that probably happened when I was looking at my wristwatch. when that thing took off within 8 seconds of the time I spotted the sweep to the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in the night sky, 8 seconds had

And I turned and I looked at the The campfire had flames about 1 in high. The campfire had completely burned out. But I didn't say, "Oh my god, what happened to the fire?" I mean, cuz fires burn out. You You expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted. So, I asked everybody, "Should I throw some wood on the fire and build it up?" And they're

"Fuck [snorts] the fire, man. I'm exhausted. I'm going And I all of a sudden just felt exhausted." So, it was that adrenaline that put you into the afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your safety, that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you. That's the way it felt like. But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off. That you You felt like you had a sort of premonition But I

didn't I didn't know why at that time. It took uh us going through hypnotic regression Mhm. to learn the answer to that. And The fire The fire is significant, too, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's >> So, so explain that. Well, the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing. So,

it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore, but it seemed like only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore, the fire was extinguished. So, that was a 3-hour period of time that is that missing time that everybody talks about. And the the fire initially was set, you know, it was an intense fire. It was blazing, actually. >> It was acted like a lighthouse. Uh-huh.

Cuz I mean, you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night, because as as he had said before, you know, you can feel the heat from your hand, but you can't see your hand. So, it was this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances. >> to be big. And so, >> But not so big that it would start a forest. Well, I mean, if it would have been windy, that would have been a different thing, but it wasn't windy at all that night.

>> about it. I mean, they It's called a long-burning fire or sometimes an upside-down fire. You build it to last to burn a long time rather than quickly. And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or, you know, all but out uh shows you that maybe there was some some some missing time involved. >> Well, if they'd have a lot No, because fires burn out. >> This is a This is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together. >> Yeah, in fact, we hadn't even, you know, made that connection.

Travis Mhm. at that time. >> know about Travis then. Oh yeah, and then I We didn't know about anybody back then. We didn't know about any of this back then. >> This we were novices. It was all new. Yeah. Which is one of the reasons we were so intent, as I said to James, to share this knowledge with the world. I mean, you know, this Hey, something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt, and I can't do nothing about it. I want people to know, you know. >> Did you Did you guys report it to

>> Oh yeah, the very next day when the ranger came to collect our trash, we said, "Hey, you know, did anybody see anything weird >> Uh-huh. uh last night?" And he's like, "What What do you mean?" And he had that Maine accent, you know. And we So we told him what we saw, and he was like >> kind of gave us this weird look, yeah. >> I don't know what you guys were smoking last night, but if I were you, I'd stop, you know." And we were like, "No, this This is something that we really saw. This thing was like

How could you How could somebody else not see it?" And in fact, we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system, we said, "Hey, did you see anything weird, you know, last night or a couple nights ago?" They'd say, "Nah, we were all in bed by, you know, sundown." And you guys had 6 more days, right, on the hike on the trip? So how much does this change guys talking about this a lot after

>> Well, that night we didn't talk about one word. We just more or less all drifted off. Forget about the fire, everybody said. So, we all drifted off, climbed in our sleeping bags, and you know, closed our eyes. And then the next morning, as we're breaking camp and eating, the only thing we could talk about was this thing. What the hell was it? And we immediately said, "Well, it had to be a UFO." Because I said, "It's nothing military, cuz I'm I'm familiar

with what we have militarily. I've been around enough Hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter." Well, it didn't make any noise. It was totally silent. And as it flew off, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. It just had to be, cuz it that's how quickly it >> Speed of sound? >> accelerated. Yeah. >> No no sonic boom. >> Mach 1, but no boom, which is Mach 1. >> Totally silent. >> feels like it's gliding through space-time or something. >> Yeah, I don't know how you know, it was >> Breaking Newton's third law or >> does that, but there was no sonic boom.

And that thing took off like Charlie said, all you saw was a streak behind >> How how much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? You talk about the next day? >> Oh, we talked about it for like the freaking next year. Ev- everybody that we knew. Yeah. Literally everybody that we knew. And a lot of people that we didn't know. We shared this experience of the seeing this thing and being chased by it. By week two, are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non-human

intelligence, aliens, that sort of >> I mean, we we just said it was a UFO it doesn't it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with. Like shooting off into the night sky the way it did. Yeah, we and we didn't have any sense of contact with any beings or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that we saw. >> us and chased us across the lake, scared the crap out of us, and

and then we were off and gone. But, Jake >> yeah. to get back to me shining the flashlight to put that in a little bit of context. Remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines. Yeah. And I worked with reactor system. uh operate with a bubble of air inside the between outer hull and the inner hull. They have a bladder, like fish have a bladder. And you fill it full of

air to maintain a certain depth. Well, apparently when I was uh on board this craft, >> inquired about their power system, you know, because I was curious about it, and it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air, they can match gravity fields. So, if you set it for, you know, like

minus X, that might be like 80,000 ft up in the sky and set it for minus one, and you're 12 in above the And they can move between the In fact, uh the uh encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California uh 2004, they had a craft at 80, I think it was 81,000 ft. It was like

over 15 mi straight up in the air. And they sent uh planes up to that area, and when they could just start seeing it on their instruments it dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under 1 second. Hmm. I think it was it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000 feet in 7/8 of a second. And then yes, it then it zoomed up to over 80,000. So yeah, but I

that's another thing that kind of disturbs me when you're reading You get a lot of conflicting information and Well, I think I think you're actually right cuz well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said and then the the you know, I think maybe >> Visually, yeah. But but it it like I've heard podcasts on the Allagash many many times. Yeah, and and they're mixing this person

up with that person and >> Yeah. Well, even Ray did that in his book. He kept getting Jack and I mixed up. So so you get back. You see your families. What do what do you say to them and and how do they react? Well, I mean half of my family believed me and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. Hmm. >> You know what squirrel bait is, don't you? No, what's squirrel bait? Nuts. Ah, that's funny. >> There you go. So but over

especially over the last uh 15 years uh there's so much more information coming forward. >> Hmm. Uh so many more reliable credible Hmm. people are coming forward. Uh like the Prime Minister from Canada >> Paul Hellyer. came forward describing uh his UFOs the information he had the uh supreme

uh, Portsmouth, Maine in 1995, was it? >> It's either five or six. And, 96, I think it was, yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. And we had we spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957 that, uh, he was on the base and they had a craft land, physically land on the base.

So, he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer with a 16-mm movie camera and he was shooting film, 35-mm photographer was shooting film, and a 4x5 press camera photographer. And he said when they drove straight out, there was this, sort of like, uh, kind of like a tic-tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod.

And when they approached, the legs like retracted back into it, and then it just went, straight up in the air. When they were within about three or 400 yards, it just went vertically straight And I said, "Well, what did the films look like?" Gordon said, "Never saw them. As soon as we got back, they were all confiscated. And then a saucer flew right over him and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed.

And they went out there um picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming. And he lifted off, put the gear back in the well, and climbed out at a very high rate of speed and disappeared. That is so nuts. >> Yeah, well, he I think spent more time in space than anybody prior to him in the Mercury >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was one of the Mercury 7. Yeah, fascinating. Did he say anything else to you? Uh well, about seeing uh when they were

orbiting, he saw uh well, not they, uh astronaut orbited by themselves. And you know, cuz if they only had seven astronauts, they only had seven capsules, so >> Uh Cooper said that he had witnessed and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control and then they like they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio

Who the hell did we meet? Some guy from that um been recording and when they switched to a different channel he was able to switch and cuz he knew where that channel was and he switched over to that and he uh some uh of the di- of the interchange going back and forth. It's It's amazing how much information

is out there and has been out there but it was just in tighter circles. The circles are expanding now. >> Yeah, I think that's right. And but Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting Earth. Yeah. As an >> Yeah. In the Mercury missions. >> Right. That's amazing. And he had seen that one in before the program because the Mercury program didn't start until I think like '59. >> '58, yeah. '58, '59 and uh

So, by 1969 when we landed on the moon I was stationed over in Europe. Uh I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, you know, cuz it was night time for us over there. All the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching the the astronauts on the moon. So, we all grabbed our beers or whatever

we were drinking and we went out in the streets. Thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers. >> Uh now the moon belongs to us cuz we got our flag there. That's funny. So, so but did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting Earth with the other astronauts or Uh just uh it had come uh in proximity with him and I think he said it was green if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. I might

be confusing that with other other astronauts that had had encounters. So, you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus, right? For 12 or so years. >> Easily, yeah. Yeah, we never really started um looking at it until the late '80s. So, what what exactly kind of spurred >> Catalyst. Okay, what was the catalyst to piece together more? Jim and Jack both at the same time

in two different states. Jim lived in Jack in Vermont with his wife. They both started experiencing these identical nightmares. >> Well, similar. Similar. Yeah, I don't know if they were identical, but for lack of a better word, they were identical in as much as they had the same four people. The two twins, me and the other guy. Yeah. And so back to the entanglement thing, you guys are experiencing the same >> Yeah. things at the same time. >> he would but even then we didn't know

what was going on. I remember he used to say, "Man, I had like a really strange dream last night where there were like things like these like humanoid things and I was like, "Yeah, Jack, come on, it's a nightmare, you know, I have them, too. Yeah, yeah. I have the same kind of dreams. It's just a nightmare. Don't worry about it." >> And it was you, Charlie, Jack, and Chuck in the dream just like Yeah. >> the four of you at Allagash. Exactly. Yeah. That Well, that was the only time that we had ever done anything together

like that. I mean, And so the dream is just you guys are sitting there and what what happens in the dream? >> Like being in a doctor's office. Mhm. Um strange things were being done to you Mhm. with no explanation. So you're Are you guys on a craft? Well, we we Somewhere. With after the hypnotic regression, we did discover that yeah, we It seems we >> we were on this craft, apparently. So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or

you know, um point to something else having occurred and then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression. Jim had had a an injury uh, and he developed epilepsy, temporal lobe epilepsy. And he was having a lot of seizure So, he was at the Beth Israel Hospital being followed for that and they were going to do a sleep deprivation

study on him and he had all these wires glued to his head. And they said, "While you're waiting around, do you want to read a book or anything?" He said, "Yeah, yeah." So, they brought in tray of books and Communion. Mhm. And when I saw the face on the cover, I flipped out. Yeah. >> I was like, "Why why are you giving me this book to read? I don't want to read this." And I like I for some [snorts]

reason I didn't really know why. It was just like this face just Negative reactions. >> I had this extreme negative reaction and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I made a big scene. And then a few minutes later one of the neurologists came in and said, "Jim, [clears throat] >> what just came down here?" And I was like, "I don't want to talk about this." And he was like, "Well, um, it's kind of weird, don't you think?" And I was like, "I don't care what you call it. You know, it's like I don't

know. [snorts] I just don't like this I don't want to look at this book >> like a visceral allergic reaction. >> a visceral reaction to it. Mhm. And I got really upset. >> And then You know, this is oh, by the way, common for people experiencing to see the cover, specifically of Communion, Whitley Strieber's book, and a lot of stuff cut bubbles back up. >> comes up. >> Comes back [laughter] up and sometimes it's this and then other times it's like, "Whoa, that looks familiar." Yeah. >> Yeah. And and so, he

he left and and after the test was done the EEG um he came in he said you know I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question. And I said fine, what do you want to ask? He said have you ever seen a UFO? And I remembered like looking at him What the heck >> is going on here? And I said well yeah as a matter of fact I have. Yeah. And he said oh you want to talk about it?

And was he affiliated with He was affiliated with Beth >> Medical Center and Beth Israel Medical Center and Harvard Medical School. Yeah. Yeah so um Did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor? >> No I thought he was he was an honest actor and um and so uh I said uh well yeah you know I I have had a UFO experience and and I was telling him about these nightmares that I was having thinking they were seizure activity. And he said you know Jim I think you

really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who >> deals with people who have seen UFOs. I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so I wouldn't flip out >> because I was I was not happy. And so I said uh >> you know I really I really want to just concentrate on the seizures, you know, let's concentrate on the seizures. So I tried to avoid it for a while and then

a few days later he came into my room and said, "Look, you know, this guy named Ray Fowler, Raymond Fowler, is going to he's a UFO and he's going to be at this um uh which was pretty close to where Cal and I live now. It's a library. >> Hotel. There was a Marriott Hotel near us and he said he's going to be doing he's going to be speaking at this uh or he's going to have a book stand or something like that at this thing and I I want you to go and talk to him.

And I was like I don't want to talk to him. And he said, "Look, you really I really want you to do this." So he talked me into doing it and that's how I met Ray Fowler. And I remembered when I met him he was selling some his books. >> And he said, "Oh, you're the Yeah, you're Dr. Todd called me and and so I'm expecting you and I said you know, and he goes, "Well, why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me

about this UFO that you saw." So I told him about it and at first I thought he was bored. You know, it was like, "Oh, yeah, I've heard this a million times." You know. And then I said um my Charlie and myself and my identical twin and then he went "What did you just say?" And I said, "Charlie and I and this other guy and my identical twin." He said, "Oh, you have an identical twin?" And I said, "Yes." And then he said, "Okay, I want you to start all over And then I could tell he was giving me

his attention. >> Why was Why was that somehow >> role and you got a base population and a control If you're going to do any type of mental So, that's interesting. You have two identical twins. Yeah, that both that's interesting. I also think from an investigatory perspective, if he's speaking to you first, he can get your whole testimony, then he can isolate your brother, and then get the same testimony and kind of, you know, compare and contrast. And so, it's probably from

his vantage point, you know, the potential for high confidence is really there. Which is exciting. And and that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions. He You know, we we we filed a report. The That was the first thing we did. And then he said, "You know, would you like to do hypnotic regression? Have you ever done You ever been hypnotized?" I said, "No. I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean, isn't that kind of a controlled show something? some kind of weird thing, you know, that people

believe in, but it's not really It's really >> Not science. >> it's not science. It's not It's not accepted in a court of law. So, I mean, how could it be legitimate? He's like, "No, it's just kind of this like super relaxed state. You know, it's not no big deal." So, I said, "Yeah, sure. We'll do it." So, we all four of us agreed to undergo um regression multiple regression sessions. And then we we agreed that we would not talk about them between us. We would not report

anything we remembered from these sessions. So, no collusion. >> No collusion. >> Totally isolated. Yeah. And what comes out of the regression session? Pretty similar stories. Yeah. Uh something that I didn't think had happened at all. I thought was Try to tell me there's nothing to this story. We're out fishing. This weird light came up on top of us. We paddled away. We shined a flashlight at it. It flew That's the whole story. The whole end. Nothing to it.

So, after being hypnotized, then I was totally quiet with myself even. I didn't even talk to myself. I'm for like the next 4 hours I'm just trying to access, absorb, and accept what I had just in- re-encountered that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with.

Yeah, it was >> Why the fire had burned out. Why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed uh because of its power source uh works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields. Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this, you know, plasma ball that's glowing 75 yd away and then you guys

kind of walking on the shore. Well, uh first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking well, that's odd. What the hell happened to my socks? And then I'm thinking where the hell are my shoes? Where the hell are my clothes? And the fast thinker that I am, then it's like where the hell am I? Mhm. And I'm like

getting cold and freaked out and I'm like looking around and just beyond my toes I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus. Mhm. And in my mind I'm screaming. I couldn't articulate but I'm like screaming, get off your asses, get over here, help me, get me loose. You know, what's going on? And at that time, I was

probably about a first-degree black belt in martial arts, Shotokan Karate, Goshin Jitsu, Isshin-ryu, Pukulan, Well, and Aikido. So, I studied mostly Aikido for many years, but at any I could take care of myself in a fight, you know, I I I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons, and I defended myself But here I am, but naked,

and I'm as helpless as an infant? Mhm. I I just It was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while. And uh I'm struggling to get up, and I had that sensation of movement. I look up, and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. So, I dropped my head to move as way as quickly as I could, and I probably only moved my head like another

3 or 4 in till I was making contact with surface I was laying on, and I couldn't go backwards any further. So, you were laying horizontally? On a table, yeah. On What What did the table feel like? Uh kind of like a chilly, like this room is chilly. Yeah. It felt chilly. Uh very sterile, uh very much like uh an emergency room setting in a way.

And then uh I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my and it was over my chest, and it basically covered my entire torso. And then this blue light came straight down out of it and it had like definite dimensional quality to it the light did. I mean there isn't like like take your flashlight or anything you shine it and the light spreads and

This was focused. It was localized into one shape and that was emitted straight down onto my torso. And there were like beings to my left uh doing whatever to this panel. I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began

a clinical examination of me for lack of a another term at all. What did the beings look like? Like what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours >> leaning down? Yeah. Well, I got I got artwork of it in the computer but and and it's in the book as well. Uh a sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes no nose like us and no mouth like us. It

was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding. They were like just a a lump. And uh not like a a lump or a blob or anything but like a slight bump out from the skull. Are you freaking out? Freaking out I'm beyond freaking freaked

hell I I defended myself against seven armed kids in Boston a number of years ago. I had seven kids come at me with weapons. you know, I I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in >> Just They I just had to let them know they had truly made one. With your words and with your your >> Well, yeah, I I let them know with an

air or two. So, there you go. But at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything. So, I mean at that moment on that craft I was told not to resist, not to fight. I wasn't in any danger. Just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, "Oh, I can do that." Were you told >> Yeah. When I was Well, you you've had the experience of

being on a roller coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around your I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind. When I looked into these eyes, it was like uh two magnets grabbing one another instantly. And I mean, it was like I understand what you're asking of me. Uh uh

um I believe you. You know what I mean? >> Instant instantaneous comprehension of their intention. >> Absolutely. Interesting. Absolutely. And so, I'm there like, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released. So, all right." Were they gray in color? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they were grayish in color. >> how tall? Uh under 5 ft, Uh uh, spindly. Uh-huh. Uh, their hands had four digits. Uh-huh.

Uh, not five or three as they're portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films. Mhm. Uh, their hands had four digits that hang straight down. And the center of the hand had like an articulation ability. So, they would have four opposable digits where we only have one, our thumb. these these beings had four opposable digits and that was the way all their

technology was geared to toward their Uh, just like our world is designed because of our hands, how our hands work to use tools. they had like a clothing on that was I didn't for lack of a better word, it's like a spandex type of appearance where it like tightly conformed to their body.

Um, but they also, one of them also had this wand. Uh, like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so. Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do. I'll go back to the the canoe. When we were paddling back to the towards the beach, the the campsite, the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up

and seeing this craft like right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe. But, under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on like literally on top of this and it this [snorts] beam came down around the canoe. Mhm. And it was a hollow like Charlie said earlier it was it was like a tube where our hose were the sheath of the hose is and made out of light and it was moving. Like when you see um dust

motes through sunlight, you know, it's moving that's had this quality to it but the inside was dark. >> Mhm. And I remember it looking up straight up into the top of this tube and it was dark in there but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there and I remember thinking This is bad. Mhm. [snorts] And then the next thing I remembered was uh being in a room

uhm Chuck, Rack, and Charlie were sitting on this bench. And I think I think I remembered I was standing near it and Jack was uhm out in front of me with these beings. And then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it like the end of your finger. And he was

they were doing they were like taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see like how it rotated. I thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways and I was like oh crap man they're going to break his arm. And uh and then they had lifted his head back and they were like examining his throat and they had another thing that looked like it was uhm a little flashlight like a pencil

light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with. and then they I remember them walking him away into this other area. It was like a hallway or something. And they took him in through there and then um they came for me. And they were doing the same thing to And then when they went to um walk me through this area, I didn't want

to go cuz I was terrified. I thought that's it. We're going to get dissected. This is This is not going well at all. And I didn't I didn't get any messages saying just relax or we're not going to hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this this doorway or into this other area. And one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib. In between my ribs, you know, and then and I was like I get Then I got

I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was going to be in trouble. Mhm. That I had to cooperate. Was there any sort of surgical im- implantation of anything or removal of anything? Well, um I remember them taking sperm sample. Mhm. And um and then at one point I remembered uh this was over two sessions. The first

session that they first hypnotic session um I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces or I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session their faces finally came through and I remember screaming, "They're bugs. They look like bugs." They had this kind of >> It looked like a like a shape of an ant, you know, they had a bulbous top head and they had these big eyes that were

more laterally situated rather than in the front. >> Mhm. No nose, slit for a mouth. And I couldn't tell if if if they if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. Mhm. And and I thought they looked they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head. Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each Any details that were inconsistent

between your accounts or did they all line up? >> Inconsistent Some small details were different. [snorts] Like I remembered the the device that they used to get the to store the semen. Mhm. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape Mhm. with a round bottom. And uh there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck. but like when they took the semen from me, I was like I was so terrified, you

know, my Johnson was like 3 in inside of me. It was like, "You are you are not getting there." And so then I had this I got this impression that um >> things are going to you better change your ways or you know So I I actually like forced myself >> erection and then they brought out this thing for me to you know ejaculate in. Whereas Jack remembered more of a

conical shape Yeah. device with a with a wand coming like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they actually inserted into his penis to get the So, that was different between his recollection and my recollection. >> Or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever. >> Yeah, it could have just been [clears throat] because of the way I mean I remembered they let me sit up to do it. I remember saying I can't do this laying down. I got, you know,

let me sit up and then I I was able to then there was another time. I don't know if they did the same thing to check or not. Now, I can't remember, but at one point I remembered laying on a on a on a table. Mhm. And there were two two beings at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet and two next on either side. And I remembered thinking, I mean,

I was terrified. And I didn't trust these things. And so, I at one point I'm almost ashamed to say I thought, you know, maybe if I kill I can create a distraction and get out of here. I can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, cuz they had these really like thin pencil-like necks. They had these like thin necks. I thought, well, I could get my hand around there and just And as soon as I had that thought, they the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side, they moved away so fast. It

was like a blur. And then um one of the ones that were at my feet just It was weird. He kind of like reached up in the air with his arm. They had these long long thin articulated arms. And when he came down, he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey It was like a hockey puck, but it wasn't like perfectly round. It was more like of an oval shape. And it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has, but it was

[clears throat] like the size of a hockey puck. Maybe a little smaller. And they put one on on the outside of each one of my shins, and then I couldn't move my legs. Like no matter how hard I tried, I I couldn't move my legs. Did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from or >> No, I didn't. Yeah. Didn't even get a damn t-shirt. >> I mean No souvenirs. >> You know, like I said earlier, it was like I got the clear impression that

whatever they were they were following a procedure. Yeah. It was, you know step one, step two, step three, step four. I don't remember them putting in me in any machines. Jack, they got a lot more out of Jack than they did me because I was like so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was going to have a seizure, so they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure cuz I would be like freaking out during these sessions. But it was almost like the beings were

in some sort of automated assembly line, and they were following >> a sense. In a sense, yeah. >> totally automated. >> Um just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles. Uh on his legs for several years thereafter. I don't know if it's that way now. Hair didn't grow there. It was like bald patch on his legs. >> Whoa, really? And >> shins. And his identical twin brother Jack Yeah. had tumors growing in the

exact spots on his legs. >> What? Tumors? >> Benign or We never knew because the tumors were uh at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont. Uh their pathology department was unable ascertain what type of hmm biological they were looking at. So, they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington, D.C. Hmm. It was

signed for by a major or no, by a colonel, a doctor who's a rank of a Cuz they have one of the best uh pathology uh science labs in the world. >> Got it. So >> Yeah, when they removed this thing on his shin it looked like a piece of um chewing bubble gum, pink in color, hard. Hmm. And they said in the report that it resembled the type of growth

that is common when you have um bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound. Hmm. That's what they they said. They didn't know what it was, but that was what it That was the closest thing that they could just describe it as. >> Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants, anything inside of your >> know. I don't think so. I I used to have a head of hair. >> Does that Does that count? No.

Oh, okay. I uh I have like a small punch biopsy scar near my scrotum that I had never known before. if you were to take like an old uh pencil, the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something, it'd take a plug out. That's the size

diameter Hmm. and very shallow, maybe about uh not quite an eighth of an inch deep uh right here on the inside of my leg. You described the beings as clinical? Very clinical, yeah. We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall. So, they were about their business. Yeah, kind of Yeah, right. The best analogy I can come up with is like when scientists go to the, you know, the Arctic and they see a polar bear and

dart him. Mhm. And then while he's anesthetized they measure his teeth and look at his, you know, Yeah, what's that? What's a polar bear got to say about what happened to it? I remembered under the hypnosis I like the way I saw things was weird. It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see clearly Mhm. you. Mhm. But out here everything was fuzzy. Mhm. And unclear. Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Cuz all four of you

did hypnotic regressions. >> Did all of that period of about almost a year? Uh-huh. Do you have the audio? Uh, Ray certainly has. I don't. Yeah. Would I be able to listen to that? >> it's the some of the hypnotic regressions are are word for word in his book. Would I be able to listen to the audio? Oh, you'd have to ask Ray. >> Okay. If he even still has that stuff. Uh, but if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, The Allagash

um, it has direct quotes from the regression. Okay. Uh, questions as well as our responses. >> And their analysis. And their analysis of them as well. >> Yeah, it's the best book on the case. >> Did John Mack oversee any or did did John Mack review any of the, uh, hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there? Uh, I don't know what John did. >> have over the years cuz we'd known John for many years. Twen- over 20 years. >> Yeah, over 25 years before he died.

>> um after we had after Ray had gotten finished with his investigation, I was um he said it cuz during during the investigation, he said, "I don't want you to read any books. I don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else because I don't want to like pollute Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would you know after having written his book, hopefully the audio the raw source material he would sort of open source because I think if anybody you know if

anybody should uh be in possession of it it should be you guys to be honest. I mean we could have purchased the complete manuscript. I mean and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribed verbatim word for word. Uh but you know that thing was like >> Yeah, they're really each one is >> well hey of paper. >> Now we have a little thing called AI and you run it you run it through and you just say you know describe you know

these accounts and give us a give us a summary and then you can query it and you so I think I think it'd be really cool to to get these things kind of digitized and you know and then run it through [clears throat] the AI and you'll be able to ask it questions and >> Sounds like you found a project for >> Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it. >> the whole of Ray. Yeah, yeah. I'll try to get in touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Um fascinating. What what was John Mack like? Uh I uh am a long time you know admirer of his obviously you know rest in peace. >> Well, I went to his his support group

for a while after Ray was done with his Um And Jim real quick just for the audience for basic context John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department and uh brilliant guy. He actually even wrote the Pulitzer Prize um I believe Lawrence of Arabia. >> That's right. He was an expert on him. The the prince of disorder and and as he really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets. And towards the end of his career, he

started to cuz he was a clinician see people who had missing time and get into the whole, you know, alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins who was this, you know, amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So, >> go on. Yeah, so anyway, my impression of John when I first met him was I knew that he was a psychiatrist. And he was affiliated with Harvard and

he had credentials up the kazoo. And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were in my from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people. One camp which I considered myself a member of was the nuts and bolts. I called it the nuts and bolts. You know, I I want to see physical evidence. I want to see physical beings. And then the other camp was more of a

that they that their experiences were more ethereal that weren't physical, but communicated more of a virtual consciousness base consciousness base. And that these people seem to think that the aliens were our saviors, that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's

no more hate or war and all that stuff. >> Which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it. I mean but I did notice that, and I think John was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist. He, you know, because what a psychiatrist's job to do their job is heal people. You know, and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff. It's like even though

even though we all believe that we actually that these experiences were real for us it still creates all kinds of psychological problems, you know, how to deal with other people who don't who think you're crazy Yeah. or think you're, you know, subhuman for some reason or something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box. Mhm. And so it's it my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his mission his mission to help these people

become, you know, self- actualized again where they could be they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety. Kind of re- reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously >> be able to live with their experiences, you know, because that was that was the difference between him and the rest of the community the rest of the psych- psychiatric community rest of the psychiatric community especially at Harvard. Which is why they tried to kick

him out. >> Yeah. Was that no, these people are, you know, they're they're lunar. Mhm. There's something wrong with these people. John was saying, "Look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological tests I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people." And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior? No. The only mental problems I had was from the seizures. Um because I'd have auras, you know, I'd smell things or hear things or

Um how many beings were on the craft? hard to say. Yeah. Yeah, it really would be cuz there were people or beings in the like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam And as we left, we passed because that was where I inquired about their power system and propulsion system. And so so you you

learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or Well, I was explained the way you would explain something to a a 6-year-old, you That [snorts] it it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the different levels by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hull to maintain that depth.

And they could match gravitational fields. Mhm. And so that was the way they were sort of examining example A to what we do. This is So like >> your submarine works, this is the way our craft works when it's in in a area. So it with like you mentioned with the submarine, you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull which manages the depth. Correct.

>> saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating gravitational and fields. Interesting. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's good to you know, think about that. I'll mull that over. Well, I mean, it's just like we can do things magnetically that >> um where you take very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity. You have all this resistance if you try

touching them to one another. Uh and their uh ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from Mhm. from a denser field to a less dense field. I don't know, it's the only way I can think of. Did you have any sense of where they came from, why they were taking, you know, samples from you guys? >> No. It's interesting cuz the kind of,

you know, gamete, you know, semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot. That's very common. It's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program. And that's kind of where you end up with a lot of a lot of these >> Don't don't we do the exact thing same thing to animals? Sure. >> On our planet? >> Yeah, we domesticate animals all the time. We breed them. We create new >> same thing with people and like, you know, dynasty families. Mhm. It's wild to think that, but it's it's true. And

sometimes I think about these um gray alien beings and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into, given that we're being domesticated right now. That is not a controversial thing to say. We are, you know, testosterone is dropping off a cliff, uh sperm count is dropping off a cliff for men. Uh we're losing, you know, the melanin in our our skin. That happens over long period of time. So, you end up with these beings that you they lose the melanin in their skin. Their their their their prefrontal

cortex is larger because decision-making's probably more important with the advent of, you you the AI white-collar work age, their ears and nose become vestigial. We're not hunter-gathering. Their eyes become more slit-like cuz we use more screens. And their their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important. And they develop some sort of, you know, latent telepathic power, which you're now seeing, you know, the telepathy tapes and like, you know, people starting to lend more rigorous

scientific credence to the idea that maybe we we have this mind matter sort of thing. And so they've selected for all of this stuff that you would expect humanity to select for. It's very >> That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future. Yes. Yeah, that they exactly There's a guy named Mike Masters. And then I somehow think that you know, that's a really interesting theory that's important. And then it's somehow too simple. Like there's something else going on too, you know.

But it's it's it's always hard to theorize about. always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical. I mean, if they if if they can travel interdimensionally, why do they have craft? What do they need a craft for? Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> You know, it's like, what? Yeah, it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time. And that would be the Jacques Vallée >> Yeah, I mean, are they is is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see as physical? Mhm.

I don't know. Did did any of you So okay, so the the the physical evidence would be like the ankle your your hair not growing around your ankle. >> Yeah. Your brother having >> tumors in the same spot. >> Tumors in the exact same spot. A- anything else as far as like a physical, you know, remnant of the experience? >> Well, one of the things that has always fascinated me personally Mhm. was the fact that all of us or the three of us Mhm. most

certainly had uh major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork after the Allagash where I was training myself to be a school teacher Mhm. to work with children teaching art. I ended up becoming a medical artist working with medical scientists, medical researchers and being aware of all kinds of new >> Mhm. The

technology I mentioned that they used to look at our chests or at our torsos. when I was a medical photographer, I would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film. >> Mhm. Infrared film and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies. Um because with ultraviolet light you can see

through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes. Mhm. so we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft >> Nice. And your MRIs. Prior that was your X-rays and then CAT scans and you can use ultrasound uh sonic waves and

>> Tomograms, the whole nine yards. >> All these different radiological tools. So I was talking with a physician about and he said, "Well, he said that's just like when you know, uh defibrillators first showed up in the world. You know, they were these you know, experimental paddles that you touch the heart or you know, to

start the the heart's function. And that all of these technologies that these beings have we're slowly catching up. I mean, if you stop and any rational person stop and in 1903 which was 123 years ago two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight.

Not a glider. They weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location. They took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation. That was years after that we were walking on the moon. In 66 years.

entities, these beings that we don't know where they come from uh they have science that's you know, even patting us on the back saying thousands of years ahead of us. They might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us. Uh the Milky Way galaxy there are more stars and planets in the Milky Way

galaxy than grains of sand on planet That's what I've been told by astrophysicists and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for that uh the technologies that we have and we're developing like sound technology without speakers.

bone conducting headphones. >> the vibrations through your cheek bones. And I hear better with these than I do listening to people. >> Yeah, it's fascinating it you can bypass the ear canal through vibration which Beethoven went deaf famously and he would uh chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear once he went deaf which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer. Um speaking of very advanced technology, maybe the most shocking thing that you

said Charlie right before we started rolling which I got so excited about is I've been researching this guy named John Norseman. Yeah. >> And he is uh you know this interesting engineer who has this Lockheed patent for essentially how to fly a UFO with your mind. How do you sort of biofeedback from the brain in order to remote control remote pilot a craft. And he he talks about brain prints, the idea that we have fingerprints but you might also have a unique kind of Yeah.

>> you know electromagnetic signature. Just like iris or whatever. >> Yeah, iris. Yeah. So fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time and I have to think if there is you know uh legacy UFO crash retrieval program which I do believe um they are either tracking him uh you know and he's now since you know he's he's passed away but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess. And so this is fascinating because you said that John Norsing, you spoke to

John Norsing and he was at Allagash in the 19 in 1976 in August when you guys were there and experienced your abduction. Is that He read our report to the ranger that same day. Mhm. >> That's what he told us. Wow. He read your report to the ranger that same day. And what what did he say he was doing there? He said he was doing a TTR tag trace retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous

device that they were testing that they monitor sort of like GPS. You know, we tell them like blood pressure, heart rate, that sort of stuff. So he would >> location What exactly would he would put like this like RFID chip or something on some other military folk and they would sort of you know, go off and into Allagash and they were testing to see how well they could track these people. >> Exactly. That's so fascinating. >> told us. And does any part of you guys

think that cuz I you know, I think about some of these narratives with like, you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear sites and I don't know if it might not be a coincidence that you're a you know, you were in the Navy in a nuclear capacity. >> Air Force base or was at the time in the '70s up in northern Maine. What was the name What was the name of that base? Do you remember? No, I wasn't an Air Force >> Loring. Loring. There you go. >> Loring Air Force base. Yeah. Um yep. Um But this was near Was it near Allagash?

>> Yeah, 90 miles away from Allagash. >> Okay. Interesting. >> Maine and it was a secret nuclear base. They had a episode It was either 1975 or 1976 where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear >> And this is around the time that you guys had your experience 90 miles away. >> the same time. >> 75 or something like >> 75, 76, yeah. >> Yeah, well that's around the same time. >> Yeah. Well, there's like

many reported incidents over uh our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them and then all the missiles go offline, all their computers shut down. >> And uh they go into a massive freak out. >> freak out. >> Oh, yeah. I've I've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand and I think they're all legit. So, 90 miles away you had this Air Force base, they reported UFOs

showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs seeming to sort of, you know, track and or do >> Well, they were do they were definitely mapping the bunkers. And that's a common thing you hear, yeah, that they're sort of, you know, testing the tip of the spear of human defense and, you know, knowing you know, either to protect ourselves, protect their resources, you know, some of the people in the national security state say they're might be, you know, doing ISR and doing recon. I don't know.

I don't believe that. I don't believe that. Yeah, yeah. I don't buy the whole the the idea that they're a threat and, you know, I think >> They Oh, if they wanted to do something we couldn't do diddly. That's right. And they would have done it years ago. They would Why it's like they they are so advanced. It's like, yeah, why do they need to, like, you know, play around with us before before you know, it's like what at what point in your ISR, you know, recon do you say, "Okay, we can like take these guys out." Like they can

they can clearly take us out now if they wanted to. I mean, good lord, yeah. You look back >> artwork from the Renaissance era and you have a lot of depictions of like UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah, no, it's clearly a it's a across civilizations and across millennia phenomena. So, if they were going to threaten us, I mean, they would have done us way before the Neanderthal were bred

out. Yeah. >> And that's another thing. A lot of people think the Neanderthal were killed by Cro-Magnon and Homo sapien sapien, which is what the species we are. but they got literally screwed out of existence. I want to stick with this John Norsen thing cuz I think this is really interesting. So, he was doing TTR, this sort of tracking thing of other, you know, fellow military combatants or something, seeing if they'd go out in the field and track

>> him. I mean, he was he's I got to know John pretty good. How'd you meet him? We met him at a >> friend of ours down in Newport >> down in Newport would bring together uh and she's somebody that >> and researcher >> an experiencer, Norsen? No, he was he was working with an artist in Jamestown across the bay. Um What was he doing when you met him? Do you know what his job was?

John, I don't really know what his job was. He was telling us things and then he said, "Well, I can't really tell you what I'm doing now I would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere." And I was thinking >> what happened to him. And I was cuz he ended up dead in a hotel room? Yes, >> No way. >> Down Tennessee, was it? I don't >> Somewhere, I think it was They claimed it was a heart attack, but he told us at Ann's. Yeah. He said cuz he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he

shouldn't be talking about. I was >> seemed like science fiction >> Yeah, it seemed like science. I even said to him, you know, John Isn't that a bit out there? What what? Cuz he was drinking, you know, I mean, everybody was drinking wine and he was and What did he say it was his job title in the 70s and the in '76 when he was at Do you remember what he said? >> Primarily research function. >> he was said he was doing government research. He had to be working with the

military because they were you know, TTRing agents in the field. And no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smoke screen for like covert government >> I don't think so, no. >> I asked John that. You asked you asked I asked John that. I said, John, you know, is what we saw up there and I mean, did you did we like stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into and

then you nailed us and and hypnotized us or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your butt. He said, And he believed him when he said >> I could tell he was telling the truth. He said, we wouldn't do that. We'd do we would just go away. No, I mean >> Leave you with a story nobody's going to believe. Fresh, sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like you guys have like had an easy time since you >> Yeah, you know. Yeah, came out with your story. No, I I almost I almost wonder if the

you know, meta phenomena of the UFOs showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity. They're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space-time itself. You could imagine them maybe being interested in a, you know, chip tracking, uh, you know, human experiment and them showing up around that. So, you know, I think the kind of easy, lazy skeptic thing would be to say that oh, it's a it's a smoke

screen for some MK Ultra thing. Yeah. But maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities, which were seemingly covert, might have attracted the phenomena itself. >> Well, that's what John That's what John told me. >> Graham Bell. Let's go down That's what he's saying. Yeah, but you're saying that's what John literally told you? >> he believed, too, that that they that the experiments that he was conducting was may have been just attracting these When did he He ended up dead in a hotel

>> what year it was. In fact, that was followed a really weird email that I had gotten from him because he he had contacted me via email. You know, he was a he was an RV'er. Mhm. He was one of the RV'ers, yeah. >> And remote viewers. And um he had sent me an email and said and and some of the other people from AWARENS and he said, "Listen, I'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the Naval College in Newport.

Do you want a Do you want a VIP pass to come and and attend it?" I was like, "Oh, yeah." So, he said, "Okay, I'll get it all set up." And then at the end of his email, you know, he was into I forget what the term is for this kind of use of language. Semiotics. >> Semiotics, yeah. He was really into that the last sentence in his email said um uh Norse uh I he said I

I RV'd the upcoming uh John not heard nor seen. And I remember calling Ed and saying, "Hey Ed, like what the heck is this last sentence mean? John not heard nor seen." I only seen the semiotics and stuff, so you know, not nor seen is his last name, but John not heard nor seen? And then just like 2 weeks after that, he was found dead in a motel room some

>> Jesus Christ. So that was some sort of code where it's like he he remote viewed his own death. >> it and he wasn't there. And this was code to say he's not heard nor seen. >> I mean what else could that mean? Oh my god. I mean what? And this is nuts and he probably was working on program Who knows? I mean he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown. Um Duncan Laurie is his name. He's a a sculptor, glass artist, but at that

time John was working with him on >> uh life energy arts around like rocks and plants and things like that. >> Bioenergetics, yeah. Very interesting. Very, yeah. Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we could go on forever, but Charlie, you uh cuz you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting, you know, UFO experience that that I want to get into. Well, yeah, in May of 1970, uh we were

off the coast of Spain doing what we had gone out there to do. And uh it was just after we've knocked off working for the uh waiting for the call to evening meal. Uh there were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck have cigarettes, kick around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was a

lieutenant, uh our highest ranking uh enlisted, which was a chief petty and then descending ranks from there. one of the guys said, "What the F is that?" And so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship. And just as I was looking back, I saw these two

coming toward us. I mean, faster than you could swing your arm uh from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop. These things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop. And uh we observed them for uh almost 2 minutes, two full minutes. And uh one of these points of light or spheres

ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone. Mhm. Just snap snap. less time than it did for me to say that. Snap snap. And it was gone. And then uh about 30 seconds later, the other one did the exact same thing and they both went vertical, straight up so fast you just couldn't believe what you were looking at.

So we turned to the officer that was there and we said, "Sir, what the hell was that?" And he looked at the chief, then he looked at us, then he looked at the chief, then he looked back at us and he "If I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow, cuz no one's going to believe you. And this topic's closed." And with that, he turned and ran up in the officer's country. And I I've never forgotten that verbatim You know.

Nobody's going to believe you anyhow. Well, I think >> This topic is closed. I think they believe you guys now because you know, now you have directors of national intelligence, directors of the CIA, Oh, >> presidents saying we're going to looking into this stuff. Yeah, we you got pilots using their cell phones to photograph freaking UFOs that aren't from here. Yeah, it's uh the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming and I think the consensus is rapidly shifting and um

you said uh and this is I think going to be also uh if we find corroboration for this, really, you know, healthy vindication for the you know, Allagash as well. Oh, absolutely. May 1970, USS Holland is where this >> Correct. And so >> Off the coast of Spain. Off the coast of Spain and this thing was seen on the starboard side and maybe it's still in the logs. So, to anybody who has any experience with the Freedom of Information Act and knows how to, you know, send those

requests, try to try to get this stuff out because >> you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in uh knowing what was reported. Awesome. Can we talk a little bit about a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork? Sure. Because um there were two things that changed well, we talked a little bit about your >> Just touching base and Jack's obsession about mathematics. >> I mean, this this happened immediately after we returned to Boston.

And uh before we went to the Allagash, Jack was doing um >> endangered species. Well, he was doing like really tight kind of >> um illustrative silk screen designs. One of them is in the Museum of uh Two. Museum of Art in Washington, D.C. >> Snake poster and Devil's Pub. Yeah, I don't know what the Devil's Pub fish is, but anyway, and then he was also doing these kind of like um

Expressionist painting of um That was the kind of work he was in, and then like immediately after coming back from the Allagash, he like just became obsessed with this this like all this kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was um models of icosahedrons out of straws, and he was >> Whoa. He was >> He was incorporating grids

in all of his artwork in a in very incredibly intriguing ways. Whoa. >> And I there was one piece that I really loved. I would like to know what ever happened to it. Tossed Grids Salad. >> Okay, that's Craig, a friend of ours. Oh, Craig's got that? Damn. Anyway, um and he was like I you know, we lived together, you know, and I'm his twin, so like no secrets. >> Mhm. And I'd be like, Jack, what the hell is going on here, you know? Like, what what are you doing? And

he'd go, I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And and like it just like kept going and going and going, and years later somebody came uh our friend Mike Asherman came um to the house. This was got This guy is like a a brilliant >> MIT scientist. programmer and scientist. >> He helped them build their tokamak at MIT, and he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork, and he

goes, you know, I know what this is, This is um get this book uh Secrets of the uh World Grid World Grid and anti anti-gravity by David Hatcher Childress. Mhm. And that go to this pay this chapter in here you'll see Jack's what's the math behind all of this stuff. >> What? Yeah. Yeah, and this guy's building tokamak? >> Yeah. Wild. So, it's almost like your brother was channeling something frontier science.

>> thing happened to me when I when I came back before I went up to the Allagash. I was making production pottery. I was making bowls and cups and platters and >> and plates and things and teapots. Mhm. And when I came when I was like just days after this event in on the Allagash, I had this >> I mean, it's like an epiphany is the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden, this thing came into my head fully developed that I could if I

worked with clay this way, I could do this like really unique kind of of crea- creations with clay that are they're so far total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got I almost got kicked out of the program because of it. But I stayed with it and I managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to Some of the most amazing >> amazing artwork.

>> to that I I became obsessed like my brother on architecture. Places like Teotihuacan, Tiwanaku, Baalbek, and the temples in Southeast Asia, Angkor Wat, and Angkor Thom, and the pyramids. And I I just became obsessed cuz I had this You know that's also common among experiencers. They'll say I've become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy who you guys might be friends with too, Mario Woods

from the Ellsworth Air Force Base abduction experience South Dakota 1977 and he goes after he goes this going to sound weird but after my experience I just became obsessed with pyramids. Yeah, so did I and and I had this this belief which I still have. I I that these sites these structures these architectural sites are a form of macro chip technology.

That they they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods. >> Yeah, I believe that too. >> That they actually used these structures for some kind of functional purpose. You know, because >> I agree. Why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to Teotihuacan Sun Pyramid pyramid from two to three thousand miles away in South America and then put them under the floor structures

of the temples? I mean mica is used in the electronics And so like why would why would they do that if it's not And it's not just in the pyramid of the sun. It's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all have those they all utilize this mica. So you know, mica is is a it's used as an insulator. Also to make capacitors.

Another point very [clears throat] interesting. Yeah, and I've always and that was like just something that creating strong electric fields. Yeah, I'm reading a book now it's called seeds of knowledge stones of power I think it is. I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week. Found it on Amazon where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe,

Egypt, and they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations. And they [clears throat] claim in their argument in their book that these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seed Mhm. uh more virulent. Mhm. And that they So they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or, you know, whatever

containers of seeds, and they found out that they increased yield per acre like three to five times. It's like electroculture or something. Ancient >> Yeah. bioelectrics. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim, Charlie, this was an absolute honor. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Yeah, it was really amazing to hear your story. And you know, I hope people start to, you know, use the Freedom of Information Act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well. >> interesting. I'd like to know. And I

want to give a shout-out to the great James Fox for the very generous introduction here. And thank you both for your time. Well, you're very, very welcome. It's been an honor, Jess. Oh, all mine.