“Aliens” Drove This Man Insane! (Ft. Greg Bishop)

The Air Force had taken him in a helicopter, flown him up to northwestern New Mexico and showed him stuff saying, "Look, we think there's something going on here." And they actually put jeeps and like water tanks and all kind of stuff in this place as props. And then he starts to kind of lose his mind. Is that is that right? Or Yeah. As things get worse, he went there with a camera and took pictures. Ben was there with like a like a rifle and a pistol and he said, you know, they're coming. You have to come in the

kind of heading down that road. It's just when somebody in power tells you It's like, oh, well, that must be right. So, you just keep, you know, Well, didn't he have a company that sold components to aerospace? They still do. His sons still run it. at least one of them and a thunder scientific temperature and humidity I think it's it's humidifiers and um and things to monitor temperature and humidity in like highly you know corrosive or whatever environments like on submarines or on aircraft or

whatever. So that's he actually had as far as I know contracts with the military for these things along with a bunch of you know scientific organizations and stuff and he uh both lives and his office is near Kirtland Air Force Base like basically across the street or what's his house is in the four hills area of Albuquerque which is on the border of the north side of Kirtland Air Force And his office was near the Wyoming gate of Kirtland Air Force Base. So at work

or at home, he was always like right next to the So and the company's still there. If you go there, there's a big sign little sign that says Thunder Scientific. Um and I think his son, one of his sons is still the president. And um I'm not sure if his wife is still alive. Cindy, I think her name is or was. But yeah, that's on like I said, it's just if you you could walk out his front door and down a street like two minutes and you're at the fence that says, you know, government facility, do not trespass, all that stuff.

And he he's got this mischievous look on his face. He looks like a he looks like a grown-up kid. There's a I've seen a picture of his um application to APRO, Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, and he's just kind of standing there like kind of [laughter] it's kind of like, wow, that doesn't look like Paul Benoitz. I think of him as like this scared, paranoid person, but um you know, in the picture, which is just snippet of somebody, he he looks actually pretty pretty happy and funny. There's a um picture of him in the

Albuquerque Journal or Tribune, one of the two, uh in 1981 or two. He looks way different. He has long hair and a big beard and he's kind of sitting there and he looks very serious. And it was just uh profile of him in his business. But um anything about his childhood or was he was he a generally credulous person who believed in other sort of you know crazy lore growing up? I don't think so. The only thing I knew about and I can't remember who I found this out from is he liked to read Wild

West novels. You know um also he was a private pilot. Uh he had a he had a pilot's license also. I think he did arabatic flying which made me feel closer to him because I have a pilot's license too and I've done some arabatic flying. Um, but it's just, you know, there's not a lot on his background. People actually said,"Well, why don't you get into his background?" And what was just your question? And I said, "Well, nobody that was close to him wanted to talk to me for obvious Cuz I was like, "We don't want to dig that up again." So, he's living and working near

Wang? And I found out and I think this is true because of the uh of because of um uh mong uh East Asian you know uh barbarians came through Germany. And so he had this Asian name. He wasn't he was German but he had this Asian name because of you know something that happened in what the third I mean sorry like the 3rd century or fourth century or something. There were there were people named Wang that came through there and just kind of the I was gonna say the hun. Not sure. Not sure he made it to Rome, but

yeah. So, okay. Mongol hordes did, but apparently that's where his name came from. Go ahead. No. No. No. Amazing. I love it. I love the historical detours. So, um, his name he's apparently moved from um, right Patterson or right airfield to Kirtland Air Force Base. And, uh, I believe there's even uh, some sort of complex near Los Alamos that's like named after him. And but that's it. Like he's kind of scrubbed from the internet otherwise. Steinman um like most people do that kind of work do

that kind of work. Bill Steinman gets in touch with his wife uh Maria Wing and she says, "Oh yeah, he worked at Kirtland Air Force Base. He worked on some, you know, secret UFO related Yeah, I think they came also came and uh took a bunch of stuff out of his house when he died. Interesting. I kind of like that that Tesla story where the Navy goes in in New York and pulls all the stuff out of storage. But the same thing I believe h happened with Eric. That's definitely factual in the case of Tesla. So, um, yeah. And then John Trump, Trump's Donald Trump's uncle

actually looks at the Tesla files uh to see if they can crazy history, but okay. So, they Yeah. Raid Wang's house. Um, Steinman speaks to Maria Wing. She says, "Yes, he's working on all sorts of spooky stuff." And, uh, he was managed by Henry A. Kissinger. So, that's pretty crazy. And then Henry Kissinger is actually on record meeting doing these like kind of um meetings. This guy Don Carter uh who was head of advanced research at

Kirtland Air Force Base uh in 1962 is convening these interdisciplinary groups to talk about UF no not talk not talk about UFOs talk about we don't know um you know kind of you know national defense security and geopolitics and um and Kisser is on record being there. So that's the backdrop. Um otherwise all we know is Kirtland is working on probably advanced aerospace. And at what point does Benowitz start to think that he is picking up some sort of

alien signal or you know he's he's detecting UFOs. I think it's 77 or 8. He was seeing lights fly and uh Chris Lambrite describes this in his book too. Um he was seeing lights like out out somewhere on the base like lifting up off the ground and flying over a mountain and going down. They were they were glowing orbs and he said that he could look through binoculars and sometimes see like air force people or somebody walking around

them before they took off and they'd go straight up, go over the mountain and go down. And it's not clear as to whether they were doing things that were unconventional or just kind of doing this because if they went zoop and they went like you know then you'd kind of like whoa. So he saw that for a while and then he started filming it with 8 millimeter cameras and then later video early video and because of that and also because um the uh he was um doing hypnosis with this woman MNA Hansen that said she was

Yeah. So um they'd started their own uh group which they said I think was more scientific. Anyway, Paul joined them. I' I've seen his application. It's kind of cool to just see what he was saying about himself. Anything interesting that he said? Um they said, "What are your what was it?" He just said, "I can help with some of the technical aspects." He had a masters, I think, in electrical Okay, that's right. Yeah. And he said that he can help with some of the technical aspects of, you

know, if they wanted to, you know, if they had any kind of equipment they wanted to use to start, you know, doing what people now do now, which is to detect UFOs. And it's been going on for years, but we just gotten to the point in the last 20 years where you can actually have an automatic system that's pretty accurate. Um, so he said that about um his expertise, but he also the other thing I thought was kind of fascinating, they said, "What's your favorite UFO book?" And he said, "Books by Heinick." That's all he said. Okay. which is funny because later Heinik apparently visited his house. Um and that's how he got in touch with

um at first Leo Sprinkle and Sprinkle came out um to interview to help him regress this woman and figure out what had happened to her. And Sprinkle after being there, I think the second time he came, he said Bennis was there with like a like a rifle and a pistol and he said, you know, they're coming. You have to come in the house right now. This was before he even contacted the Air Force, I think. Wow. So, he was already exhibiting signs of paranoia and Okay.

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Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. So he does he sees these sort of orb like things going over a mountain right next to Kirtland. And then does he detect anything else like any sort of like signals? He wasn't at that point. As things progressed he started putting up um equipment to detect signals cuz he thought maybe I can hear what the aliens are talking about cuz he called the Air Force and said look there's there's stuff flying over the base. Uhhuh. and uh I think it's aliens and I want to tell you about it and I've got

films and so they're you know the base was like he's not supposed to be watching this stuff. So instead of telling them, "No, no, get out of here." You know, that that's nothing. Um, it's national defense or whatever security, they said, "Well, well, come on down here and show us what you got." Because they wanted to see what it was. You know, is it something we're working on that he's not supposed to see? Obviously, it's something we're working on because he's pointing the camera at the base. So, I talked to um a guy at the NSA who was not there.

Um, his name was Tom Douly. I actually talk about him in the book. Um but he had a colleague that was at that meeting uh the first meeting with Benowitz where they had all the security people and like I maybe the commander of the base I'm not sure but it's certainly all the security people and some of the military and civilian people I guess in charge of different projects at the base because I wanted to see what he's looking at and he told me by the end of the meet everybody started leaving and by the end of the meeting there was like three or four people left because they're like oh that's not ours. Oh that's not ours. So

they didn't care about it, but the people that were concerned stayed there. And the only one I know of is the guy that was ahead of AFOSI at the time, I think. And he said, "Hey, Paul, this is interesting. Why don't you keep telling us what's going on?" Because they wanted to see, you know, exactly what he's seeing when he's seeing it. And then eventually convinced him that he was working with them. So he trusted them. So they could basically tell him whatever they wanted and keep keep an eye on him. And people keep asking. It's like, "What did they do that for?" And I said it was far more valuable to them to find out what he was seeing, how he was

seeing it. Um if anybody else could do this, even though he was an electronics genius and uh who he was talking to, like anybody could just write him and say, "I'm a UFO researcher. What are you doing?" And then they, you know, they could check up on the person. Maybe he's maybe is a Russia Russian or Chinese or otherwise asset. So it's basically so they could get a handle into what do these people, you know, who does he know? What is he telling them? What does he think's going on? And of course he tells somebody from you know another country from a from an adversary and

they'll get clues as to what's being worked on and they can they can uh um you know concatenate that with other information they're getting from other sources. So it's another source of information. So they want to make sure he wasn't some sort of security leak because they didn't think he was an enemy agent or anything like that. They just thought he was kind of a you know outlaw crazy scientist guy which he kind of was. and um in keeping in touch with them, they could keep a lid on that stuff. And that I think that's why they contacted Bill Moore. It's like, well,

you're a UFO guy. If you you know, if you cooperate with us, we'll give you some secrets. We'll give you some And they did. But so explain that. Just about all of them turned out to be crap. [laughter] So, let's explain that. So, so Bill Moore is a UFO researcher who's kind of uh starting to reach peak prominence at that time. I think in 79 or 80. Yeah. Because he had he had just written um co-written the Roswell incident, the first book about the Roswell crash, which really put it on the map. Before that, it was not, you know, before him and Stanton Friedman 79 to 80. It wasn't

Stan kind of discovered what was going on and then he helped. He was like Bill's research partner. That's right. Nobody mentions Bill at the Roswell uh He's why they're doing all this. Him and Stan actually. Yeah. Well, it might be because of his his, you know, the souring event of which we'll talk about which we'll talk about. But he was kind of, you know, really starting to ascend in UFO world as a a good researcher. He had written also the Philadelphia and he was on the board of APRO APRO too. That was the other connection. Okay. So he is ascending and then what

happens? Does he get sort of co-opted by counter intelligence or Yeah, basically he got a letter that was sent to AppPro and Appro looked at it and said, "Well, why don't you check this out?" It was just basically from this guy who said they were on patrol somewhere and it might have been New Mexico. I can't remember, but he said, "We're on patrol. We saw this UFO. It was really weird. Everybody got freaked out, and I just wanted to write somebody." Bill checked it out, and he uh told the APRO people, "It's BS. This is just This is somebody's fake letter. M

it was supposedly a military person that wanted to get this information out. And Bill checked out and the guy didn't He did find out the incident may have happened, but not in the way the guy So he just said, "Well, ignore this. It's BS." Um and a few months after that, he was on tour doing radio shows for um Roswell Incident. He was at one radio station. They said, "There's a call for you." He thought that it was a prank call and he just basically hung up on him. So he goes to Albuquerque, the next stop

on his book tour, he goes into the radio station, same thing happens, same voice and he's like, "Okay, this is a lot a lot of effort to put in for Just a Hoax." So he started talking to the guy and they said, um, you know, if you're interested, come and meet, you know, at this certain time. And so that's when he met, uh, I think the first meeting he had was with Dodie and the guy known as he called Falcon. um which was apparently was a old a retired CIA um agent called Harry

who has since passed away. Um and I think it was like Do we know anything about him? Rositzki. Yeah. You go look him up and you will know more than I do because a lot of stuff has come out about him since I first um what's come out um who he was uh what he worked on. His specialty was Soviet operations. He had he had he'd come out of um OSS, in World War II. And um I think he'd worked with Reinhardt Galen and some of

Nazis afterwards to to set up intelligence networks in Europe because because of the Russians and he'd also, you know, he'd also been in Afghanistan, I think, and it was um monitoring Soviet radio transmissions there. He did a lot, he was basically was their one of their Soviet experts. And so in the late 70s, early 80s when this when uh the period we're talking about, they pulled him out of retirement to help run this unofficial operation against the Russians and

Chinese or whoever else and um they needed somebody from the UFO like research community as kind of a contact. So they approached I think a bunch of different people and a few of them said yes and Bill was one of them. Do we have any sense of what Dodie had? So Dod's obviously gonna play this sort of villain role in this whole story. Uh, you know, he's the main kind of, you know, Air Force office of special investigations agent who enters Benowitz's life and, you know, plants all sorts of BS and and

and he discusses being inside of a craft. wakes up 10 miles away. Uh, you know, and it's I think it's it's it's dawn, so like hour it was like the whole night had elapsed. Yeah. And his his partner, Michael Johnson's in a catatonic state. I even tried pulling his hand off that steering wheel. And uh he has no idea what's happened to him. And he then is debriefed by, you know, a slew of official, you know, people at Ellsworth Air Force Base. And one of the guys is Rick Dodie. Next to him was this new OSI guy named Rick

Dodie. [snorts] Yeah, because the first time I saw him was on Ancient Aliens and I said, I know that guy. He was at my debrief. So that's kind of interesting as well. What year was that? 77. A year or two Yeah. Well, maybe if if true, that's probably why Dodie was tracked into this, right? Because I think he has an interest in the UFO subject just like we all do. It's just that part of his job was to mess with people concerning it. Which he enjoyed. The weird part is is like there's

Mario's is one of the strongest cases. You know, I'm I'm like you. I think a lot of UFO stuff is is [ __ ] but Mario's to me, I've spent a lot of time with the guy. It just pattern matches to one of these nuclear cases where like clearly there is um an overwhelming nuclear pattern that goes above and beyond in my opinion, the ability for humans to coordinate. Mhm. Um, so it's interesting that Dodie was probably part of a debrief around a real case. Yeah. And then is also involved in this sort of asserting himself as, you know, a

counter intel guy in this other case. Yeah. Well, maybe when that stuff came up, they're like, well, either he said something or this guy knows, you know, this is just speculation. Yeah. And Rositzky apparently handpicked all these people to be part of this operation. And I asked uh Moore about it once and he said, "Well, think of it as a giant." Because what he said was the Benowitz thing was one cog in a giant wheel connected to a bunch of other giant wheels that you would never notice. And the only reason it's noticed is because it's UFO people have kind of made it a big a big story. Not that it isn't,

but you know, there are a lot of other parts of this counter intel that was going on in the late 70s, early 80s before the Berlin Wall fell and all that that um people don't know about. The only reason this came out is because it had to do with UFOs. So people are interested in that subject obviously, but um what he said, the other thing he said to me later was imagine the Benowitz operation as a 24-hour long stage play. Yeah. It's like you and Benowitz is five minutes in one scene. Not even five minutes. That's how

much of the entire cuz uh when pe UFO people uh and researchers etc hear about this, they're like, "Oh my god, it's so important." It's like it was a tiny little piece in a big wheel that was working with a lot of other things to like here's one more way we can, you know, uh uh mess with and and uh um vet out um Soviet uh assets. And that's what he was using it for. I don't think Rositzki gave less of a crap about UFOs. All he cared about is what

he could do with it. It's another thing I had put on a t-shirt. You what? Um, UFOs are are a Swiss Army knife for intelligence. They can use them for Yeah, we were just talking earlier that shock test and you could insert UFO. Like I find this interesting with like the JFK If you were a counter intel agent, you would say that the JFK assassination was only, you know, it was only UFOs. Like say you wanted to detract from the fact

Yeah. that it was, you know, nuclear, you know, that that JFK wanted to defang the American nuclear arsenal or that he just get rid of the CIA and so they retaliating or whatever. You throw people down the trail with this thing UFOs and then it's you can track the people that talk about it with respect to UFOs. UFOs are sort of a proxy for somebody's kind of irreverence towards, you know, earthly authorities or something and open-mindedness generally. You know, you can track uh Soviet spies or traders or whatever. take something that people have a really

strong emotional attachment to, but no way to prove any of it. And that's a big ass wrench in the Oh, yeah. in the in the toolbox. Totally. Because if you're emotionally attached to something, you can be led around by the nose. So, um, sometimes when people get excited, it's like, detach your your your emotions from this because you're not going to see the bigger picture if you just if you're just looking at this thing. Well, not only that, you're making yourself susceptible to counter intelligence. Exactly. I mean, it just it just it

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the service will scale with your needs. Head to odo.com to get started. That's odo pronounced odo. And follow on Instagram or odo on Tik Tok. Now, back to today's episode. So, okay, before we get into the kind of the meta analysis of how these mechanics work, let's talk about the details. So, Moore is basically his ascendancy is being used against him. We're going to give you secret info if you comply with us. And then at what point does Moore

interact with Benowitz? And at what point does Dodie directly interact with Benowitz? I think oh Mo interacted with him just becau through appro and it was very soon I think after uh he was contacted because he said that oh there's another part of the story the reason they met with him after that phone call um is he was one of the few because they sent that letter out to different people that supposed letter from somebody in the military that had seen a UFO at close range and he was one of the few that said this

is BS um before he met with uh uh Rositzki and Dodie, they gave him one more test. They gave him a memo showing that there was some sort of a UFO sighting, I guess, in central or southern New Mexico in the late 40s or early 50s and it was um I believe it was called it was part of a project called Silver Sky because the memo was called the Silver Sky memo. He went and checked it out and found out that was BS too. Mhm. So he like that when they finally talked

to him, they said, "You're the only person that just you actually went out and found out that this stuff was false." And they kind of for some reason they wanted somebody who was um had an investigative mind like could kind of dig out whether something was BS or not or with a false flag or not or whatever you want to call it. And um that's why they picked him. I think Bill Moore was a pretty decent UFO investigator. Like if you read the Philadelphia experiment, you know, I don't know, it's I haven't corroborated whether all of the details that he

discusses are right. And I have reason to believe there's a lot of counter intelligence around the Philadelphia experiment. This is again this case in the uh 1942 uh where, you know, a a ship was rumored to be zapped from a Philadelphia Navy port to Norfol, Virginia. Yeah. Time travel whatever. Time travel. Thomas Town. There's a movie made of it. There's a movie was in it and there rumors that the the sailors in the ship were were were fused to the hull and you had heard all these screams and then

you have this guy coming out later saying he was a time traveler as a result of Carlos Aende. Carlos Aende is the um guy who leaked the story to Morris Jessup who was a pseudonym. The real guy's name was Carl Allen who was a sea a merchant marine. A Navy merchant marine. Yeah. The Carl Soende. Yeah. And so anyway, interesting story. And Bill Moore writes about this whole story in like I think a pretty, you know, hard-headed, you know, maybe get some things wrong, but like he's a he's a good researcher. He's not I don't think he's a bad researcher. So, but he he

seems to lend a lot of credibility to the fact that Rositzki and uh Dodie can give him secret information. So, he's going to comply or well, at least somebody that Rositzki knows is going to hand him dossas of He had to go one time he was told in the middle of this he said go to this hotel room in upstate New York. There will be somebody there to meet you. They just gave him an envelope with all these old documents in it and said you got 20 Goes what can I do? And they said anything you want. You just can't keep the documents. So he had a 35mm camera. He just

all it said. And then after a few years, he said, I don't think I don't think almost anything I was given was actually true 100% UFO It was all either around it or completely made up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he said he kind of felt [laughter] he kind of felt used and cheated. Sure. How does Moore and Dodie proceed to trick Benowitz into believing he is detecting more than he is when it comes to alien signals and UFOs. People are going to argue with me, but

from some government uh source and one of Benowitz's or two of Benowitz's films are mentioned in that. I know that because you look at it and you go, "Oh, that's it says I think Albuquerque or Kirtland or something like that." But there are analysis analyses of his films in part and um they were encouraging. It's like well this is unidentified. We don't know what it is. Um but uh he was more was told to give that to Benowitz. He said hand him this document. As far

as I know and or he never admitted it to me. He never actually went to Paul and said Paul Benoitz and said look into this. This is important. This was leaked to me. He was basically there just to kind of monitor him as far as I know. But Paul Bennins was so excited about what he was seeing and so convinced of whatever he thought became reality that it was really easy just to mislead him with a little push here and there. Well, that sounds interesting, Paul. Why don't you look into that a little further instead of [laughter] don't worry about that. That's not part

of anything that everything was encouraged as long as it pushed him away from any secret um um um projects or information. And you see Benowitz start to get more and more fervent in his interest and he's doing flights around Archeletta Mesa where he thinks maybe there's some other they took him up there and showed it to Because they wanted him to pay attention to that rather than to Kirtland anymore. It's like let's just draw his attention away from there and to in furtherance of that and you

know Dodie told me this I think Moore told me this and then a few people around the area around the Hickory Apache um area. Paul was very excited when he told him that the Air Force had taken him in a helicopter from Kirtland, flown flown him up to northwestern New Mexico um to the Archeletta Mesa, which is on the Hickory Apache reservation and showed him stuff saying, "Look, we think there's something going on here." They actually put jeeps and like water tanks and all kind of stuff in this place as

props so he would be concentrating on that. The funny thing is that apparently there was some sort of crash up there within that period after that. So there it was a stealth fighter or maybe it was a drone or something that definitely crashed there, but he did he never took pictures of it close enough where you could tell what it was. Oh no, he got up there after they'd cleaned it up. So you see like this burned area and Gabe said they went up there and found, you know, broken up brush and evidence that something had been picked up and a pen

that said US government property on it. So something happened there that was very important and maybe they just thought, you know what, this is even better because now he's really going to concentrate up there. And he made drawings of what he thought he saw. And um I included those in the book and they kind of morphed depending on what he was thinking at the time. He had like one version of it and then he said it was a a craft that the aliens had gave given to the United States government and the government was flying it and they didn't know how to do it and it crashed. Mhm. And [clears throat] so it just it gets

more and more Byzantine and complicated and you know and his paranoia builds and is there a good prosaic explanation for the orbs that he initially saw going over that mountain next to Kirtland or the only thing I can think of and based on what I was heard and on Chris Lambrite's book um exes descending it was some sort of project either with drones or some sort of unconventional flying objects that that had some sort of glow to them. Whether you can ascribe

that to having like a lighter than air with a light in it or, you know, Chinese lantern type thing or some kind of weird energy or something like that, I don't know. But they seemed apparently they seemed solid and they didn't move like airplanes and they they tested them at night. signals to begin with coming out of the base? because he was an electronics and he built things to pick up um uh I

guess a wide range of uh uh um radio signals probably centered on the military bands of of signals not just you know like FM or AM or shortwave or and he built an antenna array. He had all these machines for uh for uh analyzing the signal. He built all this from scratch. Nobody had any of his stuff or he juryrigged some of the stuff from his lab, but he built apparently a setup and started listening to

transmissions coming from the base, which is a huge problem if you're trying to be a security person at Kirtland. You know, people shouldn't even be listening to this, much less inventing machines and and equipment to listen to it in the first place because if he's doing it, other people can do it. So, that's what they were worried about. But he thought he could pick up, as far as I remember, he thought he could pick up transmissions um that aliens were were were beaming either to each other or to the military or something.

And why did he think whatever he was picking up was alien? Because it didn't comport with anything he could could uh conceptualize. So just the fact that it was kind of anomalous. There was no like actual message. might have been from what I've heard and what I've assumed which might be wrong is it was uh it was telemetry for missile guidance or something like that. It was micro bursts. So, you know, they sounded like and he would slow them down. And he thought he was hearing patterns in it and saying these are the aliens

doing this and um he was using this uh this setup and Gabe told me about it. He said he saw that setup, but he also saw the setup apparently after J. Allen Heinik showed up. So what Bill told me, and of course everybody's like, "Well, he's telling you this because it's disinformation. Heck wouldn't do such a thing." Um, sometime I believe in the early8 or so, maybe even earlier 8081, something like J. Alan Heinik showed up at Paul's door

with a computer, an entirely built alreadymade computer and said, "This will help you with the signals and Bill told me that uh since Heinik knew that Bill was doing some of this spy stuff somehow, they went to or he told him enough that Heinneck kind of got it because, you know, Heinik had been employed by the Air For Air Force since the 1960s and apparently in the early 80s he was still on the payroll. He just wasn't doing very much." Yeah. But it sounds like he was complicit in this whole thing where

Yeah, but I think that he didn't know what was on the computer. Otherwise, he might he had a conscience. He might have said, "I don't want to do this." Okay. So, okay. So, they give him the computer. Benowitz then starts to pick up even more on this computer. So, at some point, somebody at the base or at one, you know, any number of uh intelligence agencies that were ba that had presence there to um make sure that the security was tight. um decided, why don't we just give him a computer with stuff on it and let him pick it up and

then have it, you know, because he thought the Air Force was cooperating with him, like he was bringing them information they needed. He was, but not the kind that he thought. So, he thought he was doing sort of vital work, security work to decipher these alien signals. They said, you know, we're interested in what you're doing, Paul. Please keep talking to us. Tell us what you're doing. It's important for national security or whatever. And he's like, oh, okay. But I think even more explicitly he picks up certain messages that he interprets as like we've given the US

eight crafts or so like specific things. Yeah. He starts decoding things and the decodings are basically based on his paridolia about what should be coming out of those messages. Paridia by the way for the audience is seeing a pattern where it doesn't exist which is a human tendency. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's an evolutionary thing. You got to see patterns so you can survive. Yes. Um, so but it does us a disservice when it's things like this because you can make patterns out of stuff that don't exist. So that's what he was doing. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for

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long with mud water because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. Did he get any other messages? So, something about possibly eat crafts that the US had retrieved. I'm not sure if the stuff that I put in there uh in the book has deciphered uh I'm not sure if that's before or after the computer. It might be after because it seems really detailed. Okay. So, what what else did he receive generally? just that there were aliens from another planet. They were here. They were trying to establish a base.

They needed Earth women or something. It sounds like a science fiction movie. To propagate their race. Their planet was dying. Um All this stuff. And that they were at some point going to take over. And so that's what really scared him. And I think he was saying that before and this computer just basically said, "Okay, let's take what he's saying and just crank it up." And across the street there maybe are some NSA officials. Yes, maybe that happened. I mean that's I the person that told me that was was was Bill.

And since he's my friend I trust him. I People say this about Bill. It's like why do you trust him? It's like I've never found him to be lying to me ever. I've known him for what 35 years or Never lied to me once. If anything, his ability to off himself at muon and say that he was complicit in wrongdoing is probably a maybe a some sort of indicator that you should trust him. Also, uh I don't know why he would make that up. I mean, that seems if if you were uh to uh you know, incept

signals into a mainframe computer, the NSA would be the ones to to to do that. I mean, that that there's signals intelligence. That's what they do. Yeah. Exactly. So somebody programmed it for him. Heck brought it to the door. He hooked it up and then started immediately seeing these messages. He also saw pictures. He thought he he thought he was looking into the alien planet into the future and past of the earth. He he had a little oscilloscope or at least a CRT. Oh my god. Analog CRT with, you know, with the

scans. And what is CRT? Uh cathode ray tube. Like old TV screens. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Um, and somebody had just put this video in there for him. Gabe told me he went over there and saw some of it. He said they were dinosaurs and like old like Roman battles and stuff, but they were probably from old movies, but they were all garbled and weird. And Gabe said he saw this, so somebody was beaming this junk at him. Oh man. And apparently they set up across the street and to um send these

signals into the computer that would be decoded in the way the computer was designed to decode them. And he thought it was coming from inside the base cuz I think they probably just sent him at the same frequency. And then he starts to kind of lose his mind. Is that is that right? Or Yeah. As things get worse, um he starts losing sleep. He thinks there's going to be some sort of alien invasion. the woman MNA Hansen that she he had coming to his house in the 80s talking about she was talking about being abducted and going to this underground facility which

really that stuff is I don't know if it's true or not but it's formed so much of the UFO lore afterward. Um so a lot of stuff happening at the time that Paul was dealing with just became part of the UFO lore and yes there's independent people that have said that this happened to them. I don't know where they get that information. Maybe it's been, you know, disinfo beamed at them, you know, said to them, too. I don't know. But a lot of the a lot of the tropes kind of started back then. He said there, you know, there was an alien base underground at the Archeletta Mesa. He

went there with a camera and took of, he said, of things going in and out of the mountain, but they basically they're just like blurs. And it could be something, but it also be camera, you know, artifacts. Who knows? Nothing I've seen of the pictures he took up of the Archeletta Mesa area really amount to. There's no like clear like Billy Meyer looking picture. but you know, a couple of the things he videos he took in at Kirtland show, there's one of them that looks like a saucer kind of like this. And there's a

Yeah. So somebody was trying to plant that in the in the culture then too like in you know 1981 or whenever he got this uh um document but Bill was told to give him this this only documented thing that document at least by Bill where he said they told me to do this and they told me if I didn't give him that thing that the deal was off and he read it. He knew what it was. He's like this is BS. Um, so he went to Paul's office and he was trained. They gave him spy

training, Bill. They had him doing other stuff, too. They had him like, you know, passing mail through and doing, you know, stuff with Soviet spies. On our side, spies in the Soviet Union, they would send postcards and you'd have to like read them on a telephone call. Exactly. And then take them to another post office and mail it from that post office to the next post office. Spy But he said that um he they finally because he hesitated. It's like I I I don't know if I want to do this. He said it was like you know you're a kid and

they tell the mafia says why don't you stand on the corner and look tell me if this car comes by and then the next week you're burying bodies you know kind of thing. It wasn't that bad but he's like kind of he kind of just gets wormed into this y this uh uh structure this this this intelligence structure. So he said that he took the the finally he said okay you know I'm going to give it to Paul. He goes down to his office, tells you, "Meet me at your office at a certain time." And he takes him, he says, "Get a radio." And they go in the the the supply closet, he said. And he

turned the radio up. And he gave him the thing and said, "I was told to give this to you. Take it with a grain of salt." And he said, as far as he knew, Paul never said anything about it. And he just put it in his in his safe at at So he did this with Paul. Paul took it, didn't say anything about it, but it certainly affected his mindset and his thinking. It's like, "Oh my god, I'm I'm important. They're paying attention to me. I'm getting the secret information." What happened was his family got worried

about him. They were like, "Geez, you know, he's not doing his work. He's staying up all the time. He's chain smoking. Like he'd smoke a whole pack of cigarettes over lunch while Bill talked to him. He's like, Paul, it's like Yeah. Yeah. you know, everybody was telling him to calm down while wa knowing what was causing what was going on. They're like, you know, Dodie said he even told him. But um he couldn't he couldn't control, you know, I don't know if you've ever been in a paranoid state where just everything makes sense. Everything

that's is arrayed against you. Every conversation you hear, William Burroughs talks about this. It's a great lecture. He talked about this. But yeah, I think um in UFO world, you can get into this sort of solopcyistic mindset where you go, oh, this is all an illusion or whatever if there are other beings and I mean it becomes this you're living in the Da Vinci Code or something and Yeah, exactly. And he and he couldn't get out of that loop and his family is just like, oh my god. So they actually put him in a mental health facility for like a month or so because there's these

I've heard people still say he died in a mental institution or he killed himself. was like, "No, his family was worried about him. They put him in a me like a mental health facility for like a month or two till he calmed down." And when he came out of it, he was still interested in the stuff, but it wasn't running his That's good. And then I think he realized probably from talking to his family and maybe even Bill, it's like just, you know, if you want don't want to go to an early grave, please relax. And Dodie then comes out and admits I befriended

Paul that way. was tasked to do that. Uh, and I sent him down the wrong path and I would continuously feed him passage material. Passage material is classic kind of spook, you know. Uh, I don't know if he did or not, but I wouldn't put it past him. I don't I don't know if Bill was privy to that or anybody I talked to was. And Dodie didn't tell me that. Maybe because he didn't want to say that at the I just mean passage material, not in terms of documentation. I just mean like wrong information. Oh, yeah. I mean, he could have done

that anytime Paul said, like I said before, Paul would say, "This is happening. Don't think, yeah, you know what? I have indication that that's happening. Maybe you should check it out." Right. I mean, that kind of thing. And it just kind of builds on Yeah. And and John Lear, who's obviously implicated in the Bob Lazar story and sort of, you know, says all sorts of insane things around this time. Yeah. He worked for Air America and all this stuff. So, I think John Leer Benowitz part two because he communicated with Benowitz after this, right? So yeah, that's the interesting thing is in some ways John Leer seems

like he was fed maybe a ton of disinformation, but he also meets with Benowitz. Are you familiar with this? Did you know that? Yeah. And then Benit multiple times until Benowitz got mad at him and said he didn't want to talk to him, right? Yeah. I can't remember what the breakup was about, but yeah, Ben uh he met with Benowitz a few times and just like asked him questions and I Do you think John Leer was subject to the same disinfo as Benowitz or do you think he was tasked with Okay. you know, not because I could sit here and say that's what happened, but

the indications to me is is uh from his and what he you know what I was told that when I was told he was met with Benowitz and how is and how Bennett reacted to him and also the fact that um I think somebody asked uh Lear at one point about something about uh God I wish I knew exactly what it was. I know who told me so I can ask them. But he said, "Well, John, what about you know all this stuff up at, you know, the underground base up at at Archeletta

Mesa and the Hickory Apache and this you this big firefight and all that." And I don't know if it was that story, but Leer said, "Oh yeah, I made that up." He actually said this, he literally says, "I made that up." to in confidence or at least privately to this one guy right before one of those first congressional hearings about UFO stuff in the I think it was the early 90s or something like that. It was might have been one of the ones that Greer set up. I'm not sure. But yeah, I mean Lear admitted this and because of his you know uh previous

background flying for Air America which he touted a lot saying I was one of the you know he's got an intelligence background so CIA cargo pilot. Yeah. So he, you know, he very well may have been tasked to check up on Benitz and feed him more stuff after the fact. But you're giving Jaylen Heinik the benefit of the doubt. Only because what I know of him is that if he knew that's what it was, I don't think he'd have done it. I'm not so sure. Well, I don't know. Uh,

you know, I don't have I don't have a ton of reason to believe. Just a guess that my only you know I think of that you know uh documentary UFOs past present and future Yes. Robert Emgger and Rod Serling's doing the you know um narration. I interviewed Bob a couple of times on my show. Interesting. Yeah. I'd love to talk. He's a cool guy. I liked him. Seems like a cool guy. Well, he it seems like he was maybe one of the first examples of this, you know, using UFOs as a strategy to sort of lure people in because he is in communications with

Norton Air Force Base and I believe he goes there and everybody there is talking to him about UFOs and they're telling him that they are going to give him uh you know the landing. The Hollowman landing. Exactly. Al Magguardo earlier um I think in the in the um in the '60s. And so he gets all excited and they say they're going to give him footage and they keep saying they're going to give him footage. They're going to give him footage and then the footage never really appears and he's he's actually he is shown a little he says I think he was or is um his like one of

his partners Bob Shardell I think something uh saw it. Yeah. Alan Sandler another guy. What did you see on the film? Was it color? Was it black and white? Was it black and white? It was black and white. When I saw you be a black and white friend, but it was nothing other than what we and said in the book, we we see this thing, this round thing. And it wasn't that stable. Funny part. And it landed and a door opened and guys come out looking like they were outer space Yeah, it was Sandler. One of them actually said they saw I think even Emger says he saw it

briefly or something. And then you have this video that ends up you have mostly like this animation rendition in UFOs past, present, and future that they have to do because they don't have the real But there's also a little bit of footage and that footage has now been debunked as an F4. And an F the F4 came out I think in like 59 or something. So it was right when like it was probably like not you know well known at the time and it was definitely flying you know around Hollowman. And so I almost feel like the

first kind of you know roar shock test you know uh throwing people off the trail was that documentary and Jaylen Heinik is obviously a big part of the documentary. So was Jayen Allen Heineki used in that documentary as well? I don't know because he was through this whole thing he was still getting a check from the Air Force. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. So I don't know. But does that mean you know what you're doing? Does that mean somebody tells you everything that's going on when you're getting a check? I don't know. But one other data point about Jaylen Heinik is uh you know Jacqu Valet was like his kind of understudy

like play dumb. And I'm like, I don't know, dude. I think he might have known a thing or two cuz he seems like a smart Oh, no. I don't think he was dumb. But not being told something doesn't mean you're dumb. It just means you don't know it. No, I know. But it's like, you know, maybe three times where he could be complicit in Oh, yeah. And I'm like, how many other time? You know, those are just three times that I know. I'm pretty sure he showed up at the computer. I'm pretty sure he gave it to I don't know. Yeah. The crux is does he did he know what was on the computer? Did he know? When did when did what did

he know and when did he know it? Yeah. So, I don't know. There's no way to find that out. I tried to ask uh Kufos when I was writing the book, do you have any do any correspondence with Heinik during this time? And they said they'd helped me like three times and they never responded. They probably just thought I was a crazy person. Yeah. Well, far be it from my eye to try to off you know a UFO legend in Jalen Heinneck. He's he's definitely contributed to no I you I'm going to heir on the on the side of like what I'd like to think which is basically my whole mo because

unless something convinces me that something's one way I'm going to I'm going to think the thing that makes me feel better until I get contravenating because you know it's funny because if I don't I go down the paranoid path. Yeah. But I view the thrust of your work as um inconvenient truths that you are laying out before people and I like that. I mean, that's an interesting way. Well, I checked up on the stuff myself. That's why I I believe it. If I hadn't checked up on it, if I hadn't written Project Beta. I would probably doubt it more. I because, you know, I I didn't experience

I wouldn't been experienced what I experienced. I talked to the people I talked to. Yes. I don't know if I was lied to. With Dodie, I know I was lied to a few times. So, like 95% or more 97% of what we told he told me is not in the book because there's no way to tell. and the stuff where I just got it from him and it was relevant to the story. I said Dodie is the only person that told me One other interesting data point is in 1982 Rick Dodie gets in touch with another UFO researcher Linda Molton How and she's shown a bunch of documents

around presidential you know UFOs and aliens as well as project garnett which involves uh accelerated evolution of humanity with alien intervention. Is that right? that I don't remember. See, a lot of stuff I wrote about, more stuff has come out since then. Some of which is accurate, some of which isn't. And you may very well be right. I do not know what was in those documents. I thought it had something to do partially with some of the cattle meal relation stuff she was doing, but it was a bunch of different things.

Yeah. No. Well, I believe it had both. But, um, this is based partially. She was very excited. I I actually talked to Tom Adams. Uhhuh. I think afterwards who was a catamulation researcher and she went up and visited them right the like a couple days after that and she was like over the moon. She's like, "Oh my god, I saw all this great stuff. It's so important." And So she she she took the bait at the time. I don't know what she thinks about it now. Yeah. Well, she was later um interviewed in a in a documentary and she was like,

"I just don't want you to paint this. That the whole UFO thing is BS. I was tricked in this one instance." But the idea that UFOs are a cover for just prosaic technology is totally wrong. In fact, it's the opposite. Proaic technologies often used as a cover for you have a it's an interesting discussion. Yeah. it's probably both. In fact, it's demonstrabably both. Well, there you go. Yeah. Sort of, you that's Yeah, it's separate from the UFO issue itself,

which, you know, I people think that after I wrote that book, you think it's all like military. It's like no. Yeah. There's no way that the entire UFO phenomenon is is military or intelligence connected. It's just used. Some of the UFO stuff is genuinely anomalous. And by genuinely anomalous, I mean not explained by prosaic atmospheric conditions. Oh, definitely. And not explained by military tech, advanced military. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, there's there's so many hundreds of thousands of

things that have no connection to military anything. I agree with that too. And I I find it frustrating that this case that you write about so so uh needs to be contended with as a uh modality of how UFOs are used from a counter intelligence perspective and you need to have those that sets of goggles on when viewing everything in the UFO But uh you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. In some ways that's maybe even the goal that like you you're losing if you think the whole thing is

Yeah. Well, that's there's that belief thing again. If you believe something so strongly, that's all you're ever going to see. And so there's people there's all kinds of opinions about it, whatever people's beliefs are. But um the the the Project Beta I mean I I wrote it because well because I made the proposal and the publisher said, "Let's do this one." You know, um Patrick Que and and Simon and Schustster said, "Let's do this one." I said, "Okay." Um, so many different weird accusations I've

had about it. It's like, "Oh, you're cooperating with the government." It's like, "Yeah, no, I was trying to tell a story." That's like saying that some That's like saying that Vincent Boulosi cooperated with Manson. He's just writing a story about it. Yeah. A very opinionated story. But that's a weird analogy because I think Bugliosce, who was the lead prosecutor of the case, Yeah. and wrote Helter Skelter. Rivera was was was cooperating with Madson. There you go. They had that weird interview online. That's fine. On TV because the Bugliosce thing, like if you read like Chaos by Tom O'Neal,

you kind of are like Bugliosi had some ulterior motive with the whole thing. Oh, he wrote Did he write a He wrote a book about the Kennedy assassination that said that Oswald did it and there's no way around that. And that's right. So, for your sake, I want I just want you to be clear. No ulterior motive for you. Yeah. Yeah. No, not for me. I Okay. What am I saying? It's if you report on anything, it means that you agree with it or disagree with it. It's like, no, I don't agree or disagree with what I put in the book. I think I think a lot of stuff that happened was absolutely morally wrong and shouldn't have happened.

Yeah, of course you're documented. But I'm not going to put that in the book or say anything about it. I've I've had people like at convent when I first started doing this and lecturing about it like why don't you tell you know why didn't you just say how wrong it was? It's like what am I supposed to do? Tell you what your what was moral and is not? I think you got a better sense of what's right and wrong than you know I would give you I could that I would be assuming if I didn't I mean I'm just you should know as much of the facts as you can and you make up your own decisions based on that.

I think you're also in UFO world you're kind of setting yourself up for failure if you picize everything because you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of right and wrong and truth and untruth and then you're going to get stuff wrong. you're you're dealing with the most speculative stuff. So, there were times where I've I've been tempted to make videos like the most steel manning I've done are like, you know, it's like I did this piece on Harold Malmgrren and I'm probably going to come up with like a rebuttal on, you know, certain because there was that big D Johnson thing about

which I'm happy to address now. Um, uh, I think it's excruciatingly obvious that Harold Ngrren was CIA. Yeah. Uh, and you know, he says, "My agency" a bunch of times, and his daughter goes, "The State Department." And he's holding Paul Melon's walking stick, which he didn't buy at a yard sale. Yeah. And you know, uh, uh, uh, so Paul Melon is one of the founders of the CIA. He says Tom Farmer is his best friend, the general counsel of the CIA. Yeah. Uh, he's this like spooky trade representative in all these cases. Uh, he's he he was helping formulate the

presidential daily briefing. Yeah. So the guy with CIA, you can't a lot of debunking is based on the most likely thing, especially with UFOs. Let's the most likely thing is a prosaic explanation. So that's the explanation and we're going to do anything we can to work yourself towards that prosaic explanation because that that's the you work from a point of view rather than from a well I've seen which UFO people are completely guilty I've seen his diary and I don't think it's a fake diary and Richard Bissell is

all over it. Richard Bissell is the founder of Area 51 and the guy who he claimed to get briefed on other world technologies from and he's you know even uh Dean Johnson admits that he's in his phone book or whatever. So there there's connectivity there. He says in a 2024 interview before me I was at the IDA but that was a cover for my real work for the joint chiefs in the Pentagon. No. So all I'm saying is we everybody in the audience believes that, you know, probably the CIA killed JFK. And if you really connect the dots, who who called the

shots there? It was Alan Bellis at the Brown Brothers Haramman. So you're talking about this time where you can't just do a foyer from the FBI and know that if the person who you know uh uh got their Q clearance through the CIA, you you have no idea if they have their Q clearance. That's ridiculous. So, I just think that plus like a few anecdotes about, you know, certain people not being aware of him or whatever is insane as a as a sort of like whole debunk. And then there were a lot of I thought felt like what I know of it, it sounds like the the he did the I think he and a few

other people tried. No, it wasn't him, but the Travis Walton case. And there and they talk about this fire tower and it's like it was right next to the road. It's like, no, it's not. It's over a hill. You think they're so stupid they don't know what a fire tower is? You know, just stuff like that. Not I'm not saying the whole story is true because of that. I'm not either. The the debunk is so ridiculous on the face of it. Like I got I one of my friends stopped talking to me because I said get better evidence if you're going to No, it's true. Like I I actually I like debunks. I like skepticism. It's it's not like a

Oh, I don't I don't not want to see a debunk. I want to see a well done one which takes as much as you know not everything but takes as much into account as you can and and answers all the different data I agree. No, it's like um Kendrick and Drake you know disc disses back and forth get except it's great if you do the debunk and then I'll do the debunk of the debunk and we'll get better and we'll get to the truth and if you win fantastic because we're getting close to the truth. So, I think it's all it's all good and it's all love, but um

yeah, it's a bad it's not a good debunk in this case. It's just not. Um and then there are issues with the you know, Blueg guild triple prime. I think according to Jeffrey Krookshank, who I'm in touch with, um who's analyzed this stuff really deeply, apparently Johnson's actually kind of really scared. He realized he got a lot wrong when it came to that the booster trajectory could not have, you know, it wasn't at all near the plume. And then it's funny, you have disagreements between the debunkers now. Um, where my buddy Merrick von Randenamp, who I think is is great, but I think he's wrong in

this case, said it was the [clears throat] instrumentation pod, and Deian Johnson's like, "No, it's not the instrumentation pod, it's the booster." And then Jeff Krugshank shows that it's not the booster or the instrumentation pod. So, I think like a dog with a bone until, you know, it's until it's obvious that it's they don't have it anymore. That's right. So, anyways, all of that to say, I could be wrong. I am not, you know, I'm not the arbiter of truth. I'm covering things. I do feel a little more inclined to defend a guy who just died,

who's 89 years old, who to me, you know, this is probably the softest, most qualitative point I'll make, but just pattern matches to a great statesman who really helped the US in an earnest way over uh decades and was kind of a quiet operator. Yeah. Uh so, uh that's that's all I'll say on that. But I see an an analogy of how I feel about Bill Moore. It's like I know him. I know his motivations. I know his, you know, political stance. I know his moral code. And all of it fits with what he said.

And it also fits with how how upset he gets with people that get it all wrong and then haven't been through it. Well, I empathize for that with that or sympathize. I you know, and I'll I'll even say this now. I I would bet that or I'm a horrible dupe. No. Sure. [laughter] Well, I I would say I I'll bet I would bet that in the future I will have to retract a thing that I cover. Of course. I mean, you are dealing with the most speculative topic on the planet. I mean, I have to So, it's like I I will get stuff be willing to be wrong.

I guarantee I will get stuff wrong. That's the only guarantee. And then like if I get stuff right then it's like the most important stuff ever because it's like so uncorrelated with the consensus reality that you know you're contributing in this exciting way. So I I think that's the way you have to view everything. You can't take yourself too seriously and attach your ego to any of this stuff. Yeah, that's the problem. I mean it's really hard to detach your ego from whatever opinion or research you've So um getting back to the chord story. So, so, so, so Rick Dodie then comes out after this whole saga

and he says that I am now on the side of the truth and you see him on, you know, UFO Twitter or whatever and you see him, you know, getting interviewed on Gaia and, you know, saying we have this many alien races and these were these crashes that really happened. They see these extraterrestrials, these 4 and 1/2t tall graycoled entities. He even recently said that Lou Alzando was part of Space Force disinformation or something and so he's going after some of the other, you know, whistleblowers

um in UFO world. What's up with Rick Dodie now? And is he at all trustworthy? The first chapter of that book that I gave you, it defies language. The title is the chap of the chapter is you play the game or you get nothing. M and I believe and what that means is you can be paranoid that somebody's going to tell you BS or disinfo or lead you down a path or whatever, but if you're not in the game playing, you

know, if you're not sitting at the table playing cards with people that are just handing you bad cards all the time and occasionally a nice one, you'll never get anything. So, and I think that applies to Dodie maybe a little less now than it used to because I think less of what he says is either true, relevant, or whatever. And I think that's mainly because he likes messing with people. Um, that's his personality. He's basically he's, you know, he's a troll. He likes it. He likes messing I mean, as far as I can tell, he probably won't want to talk to

me again after this. He he made a he made a statement a few years ago and he never wanted to talk to me again. Wow. because I said something about the Serpo thing where apparently there was some exchange with some other planet in some other star system. It was a document leak. Uh um it was more like an info leak that was coming through a couple sources on the internet. Uhhuh. And it involves like um hydrogen isotopes or something and exotic propulsion and some spooky science and that I'm not sure of. All I remember was it was basically was like the the last

scene in Close Encounters where a bunch of people from the Earth go to another planet and then some of the aliens come here. So the Serpo thing was planet Serpo sent a bunch of aliens here and we sent a bunch of humans to their star system in an exchange in the 1970s Do you think Do you think any of this is Have you heard of Cicada 3301? It's okay. So, it's this weird like online scavenger hunt puzzle that involved complex mathematics that was presented in 2014. And I'm going to

screw up some of the details, but like very high level, I think it involved like you had to solve it, you needed a serious math, you know, aptitude. And a lot of people think that the whole puzzle was set up by the NSA or CIA and it was like a recruitment tool. Yeah. Do you think some of this stuff that's coming out through Dodie or other people is some sort of initiation path or do you think it is all passage material to catch bad actors or roar shock test to

UFO subject and for what purpose? So, I didn't think it was a purpose like Do you do you have a top candidate for what that project might be? And do you think that the 2017 article was sort of the same variety as whatever happened to No, I don't think it was a Benowitz thing because we live in a different time where information is disseminated in a completely different way than it was then. But do you do you think those you don't think those three videos that came out? I don't think they were faked. I'm pretty sure they weren't faked.

But I think you know Roarshock blot again. Um, Swiss Army knife again. Get something that everybody's interested in. There's a lot of emotion around it. There's no real idea about what it might be and then use it for whatever you need to use it for, either to deflect or direct attention. I think, and this is just me being dumb, um, at the time, and I think still,

although in the last few months, it's probably me mis messed up now. I think there was a cold war going on with China, and they're just trying to keep it from going hot. I have a friend that that lives there near Los Alamos. This friend told me, "You want a job?" And I said, "What?" She said, "Lo Alamos is hiring." I said, "I don't I don't have any of those skills." It was a woman. She said, "You can you can you can write English competently, can't you?" It's like, "Yeah, you edit video. They need those people." I said, "Why why does Los Alamos need those people?" She said, "There's a huge nuclear arms

race going on right now, and they're building bombs like mad." and uh, and I just thought it sort of coincided with what all this big buildup with the now and I don't know if it's directly related, but I think the UFO subject right now is being used as a as a fulcrum to figure out what people think, where people's attention can be drawn. I mean, it's just I I see it as this giant like social experiment seeing, you know, how can we use this to

our advantage, right? Um and on top of that there's a technology advantage. Um there's a advantage where you have some technology that might look like that and that can be you know attention to be directed towards or away from that. And I you know I know that sounds vague, but I'm not privy to that information. I I mean you probably had other people on here that probably know a lot more than I do about that. Um but my suspicion is that it's being used for um uh political gainsmanship. um uh uh covering up uh uh

defense tech, black projects, all that Well, it's definitely being allowed to be amplified at the very least. And I look at some of the people and I think it's metastasized and then and that it's all over the place now cuz somebody probably thought let's just do this little thing announces because I guess the time had come has come and it's become this big thing. The other thing I think and I'll I won't interrupt you but the other thing I think is it is expertise around the subject. So people with people with the with the training and the equipment and and the motivation

but were scared to before are going to concentrate on the UFO subject and and put some expertise to bear on it which was um uh uh was discouraged in the past. It was it was it you know now that stigma has been lifted. I think it that's right like I think about this. So that's a good that's a good thing that's happened. That's a total good thing. I I also think like one of the things that I got interested in through the UFO subject, but in some ways, you know, is the most out of left field and uncorrelated with

kind of consensus ufology, like really came out of left field was Towns and Brown stuff around like, you know, gravity manipulation experiments. Oh, yeah. He said that he was really impressed with your like digging into that Towns and Brown stuff. You know, Bill Moore interviewed interviewed T. Towns and Brown. I that's why I want to talk to him because I know he did and he made that movie, The Cosmic Conspiracy I may have his notes from that. I'll look for them for you. Thank you, man. That means a lot. Yeah, I'd appreciate that. So, but with the Brown stuff, um it's people don't know

who he Well, I'm also I'm convinced that, you know, I've I've signaled to no end that like if I am doing anything that like seriously hurts like American national security or like, you know, get, you know, then like I I I want to know, but nobody nobody said anything. So, it's like it's just like, you know, sort of empty on the other end. So, at that point, somebody I imagine has made a call on high that like we're going to allow some of that stuff to come out too, even though, you know, completely

organically looked into it and kind of I think corroborated a lot of his stuff. Yeah. And somebody probably made a call that like, you know, I'm not like extremely wellversed in like some of the high level theoretical physics around it that at least saying this guy created this topological physics effect, you know, we're probably past the point of like that being okay, you know, the Bfield Brown Bfield Brown effect. Yeah. So I you could be right that like there are these like surprising but adjacent

things that UFOs give you a framework for. Yeah. that like you know maybe whoever in the Navy or whatever was hoping for that. Yeah. They want like energy unlocks and they want more surface area on who don't know what UFOs are. It's going to push Bud Hopkins of all people. You have a whole secret science kind of having a recording of him from 1987 or something. I videotaped him for a documentary and he said eufology or UFOs are are dragging us kicking and screaming into the science of the 21st century and it's kind of happening now.

believe anti-gravity is possible because UFOs display them. And so I that to me is just this really important thing. kind of a chapter on anti-gravity in Project Beta actually about the about that memo from the British whatever society of of gravity research or something and it it was released the copy I saw was stamped right Patterson Air Force Base on it and it missed about like five pages like there's this big legend about the missing five pages about where it's like

it was achieved in the mid-century in and then it cuts off and then it like well we know that right airfield field was sponsoring the Chapel Hill conference in 1957 at University of North Carolina with the top theoretical physicists in the world and at the same time the UNC Chapel Hill was sponsoring Towns and Brown's work on anti-gravity. We know that right airfield had a dedicated team of people working on anti-gravity which included Lewis Whitten father of Ed Whitten who is at Martin Corporation's RA their

anti-gravity division and he's says in an interview live that we have tape of he goes I was hired to do gravity by right airfield and that's what I did. The reason there was a laboratory at Wrightfield was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it. And I got a contract from Wrightfield to do it to do [music] gravity which I did very And you have Josh Goldberg who's a PhD from Syracuse who's a top physicist also working on the theoretical underpinnings

of anti-gravity. Yeah. So we know that this stuff was extremely in vogue in the 50s. Mhm. and who knows, it may have been done or partially done. I have a friend that was in the Air Force and he said that um when they go when the stealth fighter lands people go in and pull panels out of it and put them in briefcases and go away. And he said the rumor was that some of those were anti-gravity just to help it fly in a different way that, you know, not total anti-gravity, but to help the

That's a that's a rumor that is possible. I I go back and forth on that with like the B2 for example where I I don't see a ton of hard evidence that the Paul there never is. But maybe that rumor was was was given to me just to see who would talk about it come from. It's just one of those things where you pour dye down a like 50 pipes and you see where the dye comes out, you know? Yeah. Well, I track the Brown stuff pretty closely, and I think his work did make it into the B2, but the part of the aspect of his work that made it into the B2 is electric

fields and their ability to manage air flow over an airframe and confer a tactical advantage when it comes to reducing uh the lift to drag ratio. Right. Okay. So, that's all I've ever found on a really first principles level. And then there's a bunch of hand. That might be it. That might have been what the guy was talking about. I think so. But maybe it's mixed in with the Brown Legend because of that. Yeah. Well, I I I I know that I'm pretty sure 95% that Brown's stuff made it into the B2 bomber. In fact, Floyd Odlam, who is the majority owner of Northrup, who funded

Brown's work in the 60s, paid Brown 4,000 bucks or I don't remember, 2,000 bucks 4,000 bucks a month, his family uh uh the same amount uh until until he died. Yeah. Uh until the 80s. Yeah. So, Catalina or whatever it was. Yeah. Exactly. Good memory. Um, yeah. So, I don't know. It's fascinating. Yeah. UFOs really are, you've you've made this analogy to me on the phone before. It's like if you have a bunch of pipes and the pipes represent, you know, possible leaks in intelligence, you pour

some dye in the pipes and you see where the dye goes. Yeah. And UFOs, I think, are used as a tactic for that where it's like you sprinkle in a UFO here, that's, you know, or a rumor about a UFO or some case or whatever and you see it's like, don't talk about this. Then you see who talks about it. You see who tra Yeah. Exactly. And then you see who's trustworthy. It's funny. A long time ago while I was working on this book and before that from knowing Bill, if somebody tells you don't talk about this, I always think it's a test. Me too. I always think and I've that's happened to me before. It's happened to

me on a thing that's was later debunked publicly. Yeah. And I was like, I know what you're doing. I know you're telling me this cuz you see I'm going to leak stuff about the tic tac incident and pilots whose names hadn't been released yet. I was told don't talk about this. You were you were Yeah. And then like 6 months later, bam, their names are out there. And I think whoever told me So in your case, it was true. Yeah, it was true. So So you were given like David Fraver's name before the Tic Tac incident or something before.

Alex Dedric and a couple others. I was That's crazy. Interesting. And I talked to Alex Dedric later, but I didn't tell her that. Can you say who gave you that There [laughter] you go. You passed the test to whoever did that. That's wild. Crazy. Interesting. And it doesn't mean I'm hooked into any like great network or anything, but that's, you know, and it used to be a lot this would happen. Now about once or twice a year, somebody will tell me that. Yeah. Lynn Buchanan, who I've known for a long time, the Army remote Yeah. He told me like I don't know eight

or nine years ago that he had met with an alien. He said, "But don't talk about this to anybody." I like, "Why'd you meet with the alien?" He said, "Well, they wanted to see if I could communicate with it because I was one of the remote viewers." He said, "But don't mention." I said, "All right." He said, then like five years later, he said it online somewhere, so I can say it now. Is he So, he's still on record claiming that he's met an alien. The the remote. At least I hope it came out cuz I saw it later. He had mentioned it in somebody's interview or on a podcast or something.

Where did he meet the alien? I don't know. He didn't tell me. It was probably on a base somewhere. At least he wanted me to think that. I don't know Lynn really well, but he's I I interviewed him in like 97 or something. So, I've kind of he's we've been meeting every once in a while since then, and every once in a while he'll he'll that's the only thing he ever told me. Don't say it. Don't mention it. And I said, "Why'd you tell me?" He said, "It's for your information." Wow. But there's so many little bits and pieces of information like that that just float around and I think a lot of

I'm the same way. So uh but Dian Pasoka came out and she said I think Chris Bledsoe is a modern Paul Benowitz. Um Chris Bledsoe claimed to, you know, have an interaction with this goddess Hatheror and see also at Alien Craft and and a bunch of government people are very interested in him, which is I think pretty demonstrabably true. No, that is demonstrabably true. You know, he'll say like I'm so kind of the same dynamic, I guess. So, do do you think it is the same dynamic? Do you think they're just genuine friends or like what do you think? I think whoever is interested in

the subject thinks he may be a key to the answer or part of it. And when that happens then they just become friendly and tell I've had this happen and you probably have too. Somebody comes from the government and tells you something that nobody else knows or very few people know and then they say, you know, I'm telling you this for not Lynn didn't do this because we've known each other for years, but that just because they want you, they want to flatter your ego and get your confidence and find things out. Yep.

And I'm not saying that, you know, Saman or whoever the people that are talking to him are like, you know, we're going to get all of his information and throw him down, you know, throw him throw him out with the trash. No, I think they're genuinely interested. Yeah. And they genuinely think something some useful information can come from him. And if they're friendly with him, they can get some of this information that could be useful either both for their own personal uh uh uh quest and and uh knowledge and also for whoever they might be working with or for. Totally. I don't think you know,

not to say that any of those all those people are wonderful and moral, but yeah. But I don't think I don't think you can immediately jump to the conclusion that they are modern Rick Dodies either. I think no different. You can be in the government and earnestly want disclosure. And usually if you're in the government there are caveats to your earnest desire for disclosure that involve national security. But I I yeah I don't think I don't paint them with of all them with this evil brush. That's not how the world works. I don't think you can a prior impugn anybody's motives unless

they prove to be really, you know, bad and if they do and they're working in intelligence, they're not always bad actors. It's always something or other. And that's why I, you know, I think, you know, for my they said, "What do you think of Richard Dodie?" It's like, I don't hate him. I don't think he's evil. I just think he was doing his job and he likes messing with people and that's it. Also, and what he did, some of the things he did were morally wrong and he knows it. Also, if we have, you know, take it face value that we had a remote viewing

program for 23 years, at the very least, we probably have covert remote viewing programs now. And take it face value that some of that remote viewing was effective. You have a guy in North Carolina who is claiming these like remarkable stories around kind of a miracle healing that he's experienced and you know messages that he's getting involving prophecies. If you take the first thing as a real intelligence modality that obviously needs to be corroborated by other intelligence modalities, you're going to take seriously this dude in North

Carolina. Yeah. Um and you're going to be probably very interested in that. You've got antenna up and you're correlating all kinds of different information, most of which might be BS. But the stuff that isn't is worth all the other combing through this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The thing I found too, I don't know if you found this, but sometimes people inside the government are more conspiratorial than people on the outside. Like you assume because they've seen it. That's right. They see it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you once you're in this for anything where you've get a

little glimpse into how some famous person or some you know somebody that's don't that not too many people know or a government operative when you see what's going on with them just get a little glimpse of it you realize how much what we all see and in the news and all that has already been decided like months or years before and it's not like you know it's not some conspiracy it's just the way the world works Yes. You're not you and I are only privy to a certain amount of information and other

people are privy to less and other are more or way more and there's and you know it's kind of our our you know you and I are interested in it's like what are those people above us doing? What is coming down the road? How is that going to affect us? What does the past look like because of that? What does the future look like because of that? Who does it affect? You know, should I be emotional about this? Is there a moral issue with this? I want to know all these things. And so I've got antenna up just like these weirdo government people and I've learned things from them too, you know, just how to operate and how to

think. And part of that, like you said, is being a little bit paranoid, but only a little bit because I've been a lot paranoid for about a year. And I didn't like it. That's [laughter] a lot. Paranoids never get um I made this documentary with David Grush uh in September of 2023 after he testified before Congress. He said that he, you know, uh, gave over like, I think like hundreds of pages, maybe over a thousand pages to the, uh, you know, intelligence community, Inspector General, uh, you know, experienced reprisals based on his blowing the whistle. And he brought forward 40 people directly to the ICIG

who had, you know, worked on this stuff, uh, firsthand. And we're still in this sort of liinal space even though he did all that, which is kind of crazy. I just wanted to put enough out there, touch on all the most sensitive parts like the biologic side and like things that really need to come out. But I'm I don't want to overly disclose cuz it's not my job. I don't know him well. I don't even know if I know the details about remember the details about what he was saying except to you know uh shore up that the government is interested in the

subject has been for a long time and a lot deeper than we think. Yeah. Well, his the substance of what he said is that we have um non-human bodies, pilots, craft, we have, you know, craft in our possession. Uh that we have Okay. Yeah. Now I'm remembering. Yeah. Crashes on record. He talks about the Magenta crash 1933. Um he even kind of talks about, you know, possible agreements, I believe, in the Ross Koulard interview. And then he says he has all these firsthand witnesses. And again like I I know him to have a very

idetic sort of memory and to be a very you know intense kind of you know as mild autism you know researcher. So he does uh you know definitely not fit the pattern of some of these other really slick and smooth savvy guys. Uh so it's interesting. Um, yeah. But well, it the the mistake I think people make with Grush and other people is that they want to know if they're telling the truth or not. Like that's not the question.

I think the question is is what they're saying relevant and um can connections be made with what they say to other things that things have been said and also documentation if you can get it. It's just kind of this it's a I keep using the word concatenation, but it's a concatenation of all this stuff And when somebody says, "Well, I think that person's lying." It's like, "Why?" Cuz he said this. It's like, "He said like 500 things." So, you're saying everything he said is a lie based on this one thing you think is a lie or have you proven as a lie or

is wrong or inaccurate. That's not how the world works. No, it's especially not how the UFO world works. Yeah. I think it's tough being in that whistleblower position because the more you say, the more surface area exists on, you know, what you Yeah. the more falsifiable everything. There's more ways for people to get their hooks in and pull you apart. Yeah. And and and and it's going to happen. It's not like you're commenting on you're not like a sports commentator on ESPN. People are like, "This is the truth." And if you say one wrong thing,

you know. Yeah. Well, that's different because I I I always had that analogy. people look at that analogy people made. If with this was brought into a court of law, then you know it' be proven. It's like no wouldn't because we know about murders and and robberies and stuff. This is dealing with something we can't bring in a lab and prove and not many people had experience with. So it's a whole different thing and it's throwing all these uh different definitions we have and you know I hate the word ontology but throwing everybody's ontology into question. It's like how much of this are you going to let into your life? How much of this is relevant

to you? you know, is it just like, you know, is it just like talking about movies and TV shows or something or does this mean more? I think it means way more. But I also don't know how much of this stuff is g much more of it is going to come out because I think that every time the government says, "Hey, let's look at UFOs for a while." When the usefulness of looking at it and having it in the public is gone, bam, it's gone. And then suddenly everybody's like, "Well, whoa, whoa, well, you were just going to tell us what it was." M and this has been the longest and the strongest I've ever seen it go on.

And so I don't know what the endgame is, but I have a really strong feeling that as soon as what whoever gets what they need to get or it's not useful anymore that faucet's going to be turned off. I hope I'm wrong. Because I'd like to see something. Although the disclosure thing still kind of irritates me because my one quote about it and I keep saying it and I've been saying it for years. Disclosure is like asking the parent that always lies to you to tell you this truth. The truth just this one time. And if they don't tell you what you want to hear, they're I love that. Well, there are two vectors

though. There's like is the government ever going to like let some of this stuff ultimately out in the way of like showing you a craft. And what do they know? And what do they actually know? Like do they actually know anything as far as like some metaphysical worldview that it's super concrete as opposed to, you know, maybe not. Maybe it's just ephemeral for them. It's too too much to admit it because it's not explainable in terms that people would understand. So what's the point? And it's much more useful the way it is now, which is that that Swiss Army knife that I was talking

Yeah. But I do think so there are two different vectors. There's the government vector. I do think if we just followed up on some of David Grush's, you know, face value claims that would be like really exciting if we could like corroborate, you know, some of those. Um, and it's crazy that it still exists in this liinal kind of kind of kind of Well, the UFO exists in a liinal space, so it drags everything else along with Right. [laughter] Right. Right. Right. I mean, that's the model it's coming from. So, it's going to be fighting that the whole time. Yeah. Right. Sure. [laughter]

Prove this limonality to me. Break, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, collapse the waveform. I don't know if that's going to happen. Well, that Yeah. I mean, then you're getting into deeper stuff, which is so the there's a government vector and then there's like a belief consensus reality vector and like most people believe there's aliens and exist and UFOs are real and all. Most people believe that all. Yeah. No, it's like probably over 50% of America. So if there's some other like version of reality that is egregoric in nature where like you are literally uh you know gonna create

manifesting things in your purview the amount of momentum that I see now has to turn into something and I don't know what that turns into. I don't know either. I like that Whitley Strieber quote where he said the government was keeping it secret because if enough people believed in it would it allow it in. [laughter] Fascinating. I think he said that in um um um No, wasn't in Communion. It was in uh uh his uh Majestic. It was his um semi fictional account of the Roswell crash

and everything after it. Right. Right. Right. Really good. Um a lot of metaphors in there which are still relevant and I I I still go back to I love it. Well, I'll check that out. Have you had Whitley on? I have. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. He's always a good He's always a good interview. And people I was at uh Contact. I got to get up on I got to speak at Contact. I wasn't But I got up on stage cuz Dean Aliota showed his film um Alien Perspective. And one of the first things I said when I was they asked me for a statement. I said you and I've said this before. You

know why I believe people say do you believe Whitley Streamer? said, "I believe him in the way I believe, you know, the Beatles or the Foo Fighters or or or or Van Gogh or, you know, Jackson He's a great artist. He's a great artist telling you the truth of how he sees something that has affected him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's the case of, you know, when it comes to a lot of experiencers and then people say, "Well, then he just made it up." It's like, no, art doesn't come from nothing. It comes, it comes from the artist's feelings. it his or her um life experience, everything. And

the way Whitley's explaining to us is the way an artist would explain the abduction phenomenon to us and it's in a way that nobody else talks about it like like he does and I've enjoyed it from the beginning. Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Greg Bishop, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your work. Everybody go out and buy Project Beta as well as it defies language and um yeah, thank you man. Thanks a lot. All right.