“Tesla's Technology is Still Classified!" (Ft. Senate Staffer Kirk McConnell)

fascinating to me that the Nazi scientists were working on has some superficial similarities to the kind of hypotheses and declarations that Dr. Salvatore Pas has put out that they used sort of these rotating cylinders filled with a form of mercury and of course that's what Vidcowski says that the Nazi bell program was doing that [music] was producing these uh these levitation

I'm here with the esteemed Kirk McConnell. Uh I'm so excited to have you because I think you are as close to the action as anybody when it comes to the uh civilian representative world. You were on the Senate Armed Services Committee and you have spoken to uh firsthand witnesses and uh a lot of people where that probably give you confidence that the whole UFO thing is very real where people on the outside, you know, just don't have kind of the

same data points. And so I I'm really just honored to speak to you now and you did that for multiple decades and uh you know I think came about your understanding of the UAP issue kind of very very honestly and organically and so uh yeah it's an honor to have you. Thank you. Well I very much appreciate it uh Jesse. Um I would say that uh you're exactly right. [clears throat] When I first started into this uh you know uh looking at this phenomenon, it [clears throat] was uh shortly after

2004, which was historical. They reported on the on the OAP ATIP program um and so forth. So we had we had strings to pull and uh and that's what we started to do and um you know just uh sort of following what we thought was reasonable evidence uh we've been doing it ever since. Um so 2017 Leslie Kaine uh New York Times journalist writes this kind of bombshell

We've now found out that you know uh Chris Mel and Lou Alzando had a big part in the article. They came to her with these three videos that formerly were not acknowledged to be real by the Pentagon Office of Naval Intelligence, Um, and uh, you know, it was the the the Tic Tac, the Go Fast, and the Gimble video. This this all comes out along with the revelation that Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader uh on the Democratic side and representative in in Nevada, senator from Nevada, uh had

funded $22 million along with I think Daniel Inway and Ted Stevens of Alaska uh to actually study UFOs in an official context. And so it's this kind of bombshell article and what happens next for you? So you read the article, you say, "Oh, maybe there's something here." And then what Well, I can't uh recall the, you know, specific one step at a time. Uh but generally speaking, um we I had known Chris Melon actually since the late

1980s when I first started in working in the Senate. He was a staffer for uh at the time Senator Bill Cohen from Maine on the [clears throat] Senate Intelligence Committee. So I'd known Chris forever. I saw his name associated with this and it was easy to uh reconnect with with Chris and we met Lou and we met Dr. Put off and Dr. Davis and uh um uh we met the f other folks who had been working on the um on the ranch

in uh in in in Utah and we met Brandon Skinwalker Ranch, Skinwalker Ranch. Uh we interviewed Navy pilots uh a succession of them. We also [clears throat] found Dave Fraver and Alex Dietrich who had been pilots in the Tic Tac episode back in 2004. We met with uh um we met with people from uh the under secretary of defense for intelligence and the navy and and so on. So we we

were uh we were covering a lot of ground in a relatively short order and uh and we and there was a lot of interest on the part of members at the time in understanding what the Navy was experiencing off the east coast of the United States. Now there is a big gap okay we had you know an anomalous sighting at Nimttz in 2004 we studied this stuff on the order of $22 million at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012 and you know the government has some knowledge of this stuff there's a g big

gap between that and uh the David Grush claims that probably you know and this is me kind of extrapolating but like billions of dollars have been spent on this issue. uh that we have, you know, biologics and non-human propulsed craft in our possession at various kind of aerospace warehouses. He's offered to give the addresses for the warehouses. So, there's a big delta between like, you know, we have this kind of kind of ephemeral interest and then like we have

this systematic study that's been going on for many decades. Do you have conviction in the latter and the kind of the the David Grush account? Yes, it was uh it was gradual in coming. Uh but you know once uh once there was uh what I would call you know staff level and member level member-driven uh Um, we were beating the bushes and uh hoping that other sources would come

forward and the folks that we were dealing with already who had um obvious uh and publicized um experience and expertise uh going back to the the uh OAP ATIP days that Harry Reid was sponsoring. And uh this led to other people uh you know coming to uh Congress um and telling their stories which were you know riveting and

uh and and credible. Um these are people with uh high level clearances u uh uh positions of authority in the intelligence community and the defense department and no uh no reason to be fabricating things. Um and uh so you know uh and you start reading and reading and reading about this. There's just as you know mountains of uh information out there. Not all of it uh

true. Uh but uh you know it it's it's not all false. That's for sure. And uh so yeah, we ended [clears throat] up uh uh coming progressively to the conclusion that there's there's not just smoke here. There's uh there's there's And but you're one of the few people because we've had some conversations offline. you're one of the few people that I think is fairly deep on the nuts and bolts tracing the history of the legacy UFO program as well as the

science. Um, and so you seem to have conviction that there is kind of off the books and in the black science uh that you know the civilian world doesn't really have access to, which if you were to tell this to the average citizen in the US, they'd be shocked. You know, science is supposed to be sort of, you know, open source. So obviously you have nuclear trade secrets but nuclear physics is open source and so if you analogize that with the UAP issue you know they're probably UAP trade secrets that you know involve national security

but UAP physics so to speak should be sort of open source uh to the extent we understand how any of these things work from you know an energy perspective propulsion perspective uh do you think we've made progress along those those vectors and that that's hidden from the public are you still lugging around one of those bulky worn out wallets. You know, I am that your posture is not great due to that wallet. Are you aware of that? I'm I'm currently now more self-aware of

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to see their biggest sale of the year. After you purchase, they will ask about where you heard about them. Where did they hear about Ridgewallet, Chris? Um, they heard it here first on American Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Upgrade your wallet. Thank me later. Um, it's a personal opinion. Uh, but my um, you know, my uh, tenative conclusion is that we have made

progress. Um I uh I can't um you know I can't prove it and there's certainly a lot of credible reporting on both sides that the government has not made progress. So I don't want to overstate this. In fact, um you know, as you know, uh we frequently hear the argument in favor of disclosure being that the government has failed to make progress because of the severe levels of secrecy

imposed on the program and the decentralized and stovepipe siloed nature of the different activities that are going on. the inability to attract and work with the nation's uh premier uh scientific minds. Uh the the lack of coordination and integration across these silos. You know, it's easy to understand. It's plausible that those uh factors could have [ __ ] or inhibited uh progress

uh u in a in a very significant way. uh and the idea being that uh that disclosure and bringing this under appropriate uh congressional and for that matter executive branch uh oversight and management uh may um significantly improve our ability to uh the the physics and to um and to master it. Um so um yeah I I uh I do personally uh

believe that we know an awful lot more about this than uh than the government has let on. Yeah. Are there any specific kind of um modes of exotic science. So like you hear things like an extended version of electronamics. So like from classical electronamics to extended electronamics, you hear things like the zero point has energy and we can tap the zero point. Um or you know I made a piece about the mid-century inventor towns and brown which my audience you know has heard

from me about this guy ad nauseium because I think he made some interesting updates in the world of kind of gravity manipulation. Um have you looked into any of those things specifically? Yes. Um, uh, Jesse, I certainly have tried to do that. I've tried to be a genuine student of this issue and have read as much as I as as I could as I could find time. And I've certainly read um read the biographies of Thomas Towns and Brown. I've tried to read about Nicola Tesla who I think also

[clears throat] uh uh with using different terms but I believe that he discovered uh what you're referring to as extended electronamics which is the modern term for for these uh non-traditional non so-called herzian transverse [clears throat] electromagnetic waves and uh you know Tesla certainly believed that he had discovered um um I don't I don't know if they should properly be called

electromagnetic waves because uh uh the electric and magnetic fields are are sort of suppressed in these uh uh notions of scalar longitudinal uh waves but uh for uh for convenience I'll just refer to them as that uh Tesla certainly he was dismayed when uh when Hertz came out with his uh his his version of u electromagnetic waves and said this is the this is the answer.

That's really interesting. I didn't know that that Tesla was dismayed of he was at least from what I've read he actually traveled uh to Europe to meet with Herz to try to convince him that he was wrong. No way. That's fascinating. So tell me if I'm getting the history right. I think in 1865 Maxwell, James Clerk Maxwell, British physicist, came up with his kind of equations around electromagnetism, but we hadn't actually um detected an

electromagnetic wave. And then Hinrich Herz, I think 1887ish, it's about that about that time. And so Tesla would have been very young but alive then and active and and uh and had already uh believed that he had uh accomplished a lot and learned a lot about this And so he goes to meet with Herz. Because he felt like his electromagnetic models were limited. That's right. and and that he did not have it right and that you know Tesla was trying to help him correct his uh

his his beliefs and uh by saying no look this this is a different I have a different kind of wave here and um and you know I think we we call it Tesla waves um over over the decades I mean it's been well over 100 years whatund 140 years now something like that anyway So I think uh uh Tesla Tesla after all famously believed that he could transmit electricity electricity wirelessly and

uh worked very hard on that for a big chunk of his life and frankly uh there's are accounts that suggest that or not suggest that state that that Tesla believed that he was even able to achieve so-called overunity. you know, he would send out uh um electric electrical power uh wirelessly and he believed that that uh under certain conditions that he would he would receive more energy than he

than he transmitted. And uh you know to him this was uh this was the ether you know um not exactly the ether of the of the uh early and mid and uh 19th century but nonetheless that's what as I recall that's what he thought it was uh that he was extracting energy. Today I think we would say that he believed at least that he was extracting energy from the physical vacuum from the 0 point energy

field. Well, he definitely believed that and I believe he dedicated a lot of his the end of his life towards working towards that end from an engineering perspective and received funding from JP Morgan to work on this stuff at Warden Cliff and it was all about wireless energy transmission uh you know presumably through the vacuum. Um so so yeah it's very fascinating history. Then um he dies uh I think in like the 30s or so. No, I think it was uh 43. 43. There you

of uh Nicola Tesla's life. Um and it's very complex in a lot of different accounts, but um you know, he had a I think a nephew um who was um uh who was very interested in his papers. uh the FBI uh various accounts say that yes, the FBI came in and seized uh large numbers of his files and classified them. But there's also, you know, stories about about Tesla also shopping

some of his uh work and beliefs with Russian sources or Soviet sources with uh and with the Germans. I think he did do that and I think he felt he sort of regretted it at the end of his life. I hope so. Yeah. Right. But so but because he was he was Serbian. Um yeah. So that's really interesting. But that the two aren't mutually exclusive, right? That we could have we could have, you know, confiscated his files and he also could have shared his work with the Germans and the Soviets as That's right. Now I I I do want to

stress uh Jesse that my uh science uh friends in the UAP field like Dr. or Harold Putoff and uh and Eric Davis. I'm sure if they're watching this, they're they're uh they're very upset with me cuz I don't think they believe that uh that Tesla nor uh Thomas Towns and Brown or others uh like them less wellknown to be sure uh actually uh achieved the things that we're alluding to. In other

words, sort of a uh access to this u this vast uh energy in the 0 point uh energy field in the so-called physical vacuum. Uh they they uh they really don't think that that has been achieved and they doubt that it's possible. Um and they're scientists and eminent ones and I am not. I just uh like you uh read these accounts and it's they're very interesting to me. But Halpov also did a

podcast with the National Science Foundation and I think it was co-sponsored by NASA where he talks about a model of extended electronamics. Uh and he even talks about a specific experiment involving a traditional electromagnetic wave or RF signal and then you take two Faraday chambers, one to kill the E field, you know, the electric field, one to kill the magnetic and you can communicate essentially kind of faster than light and so via these vector and scalar potentials. So, you know, do you think that that has no

connection with the Tesla stuff or maybe that's what he's saying? I don't know. Well, I look, I'm I'm no scientist. Uh uh but um I do think that this may be an example that you're bringing up of uh of like for lay people it would be like um you know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin uh you know a distinction without a difference. It's like okay yeah Howal believes in a certain brand of extended electronamics uh but not this part of it maybe um uh

whereas uh others um uh others uh believe and you know for example scalar longitudinal waves Hal and Eric might say gee I don't believe that uh whereas other scientists and in fact Leehively who who is a dominant uh force and figure in extended at electronamics would say that uh that they are likely Have you Have you met Leehively? I I have not met Lee Hively. I have certainly met people that work with

directly with him. So, this guy's known as kind of the godfather of extended electronamics like in the modern context. Um and I think he's published with a guy two two other guys uh Woodside and Low Bell and he's based in Colorado Springs. I was about to meet up with him once and then uh I think he got very nervous or something and and Dory got shut in my face unfortunately. Yeah. And so uh yeah I I I was very fascinated to learn more about extended electronamics cuz it's clearly it's this

thing that keeps coming up in UFO world but it yeah I don't know it just uh you know it's it's unclear how how real it is and how it exactly works. like you you get the sense that limited bits of information are being let out maybe strategically but that it's uh you know still this somewhat opaque field. Yes. And uh you know there's hints I know this from other scientists who are involved in the study of this uh of this discipline that you know there's there's

possibility that it's not just u scalar longitudinal waves that might enable the transmission of uh wirelessly of electrical power but that maybe these couple into other forms of energy in the physical vacuum like gravity and um as as just one example. So this is a potential avenue into accessing a uh you

know different forms of energy at a at a huge scale that would would potentially provide an explanation for the kind of uh technology and performance and physics uh that U.A. UAP uh seem to exhibit. So that's that's the connection where uh where you know people are really hunting for how in the world could could these objects operate in the way that they do and this is potentially

an explanation for it. So it's appealing. Um and you've also gone deep on some pretty interesting kind of exotic branches of science that deal with the the Nazis as well and the kind of World War II lore. Is that is that right? Yeah. You know, once again, uh at the risk of uh of um uh being ridiculed uh by my uh some of my uh scientific uh collaborators and friends. Um I've certainly uh read all about u you know

the the the Nazi uh bell program. Um, Igor Wikowski, the Polish journalist, has written some books about this and and Joseph Frell. Um, it's really fascinating to me. uh and um and uh you know aspects of what they at least have reported that the uh Nazi scientists were working on you know has some superficial at least for me as a

layman superficial similarities to uh the kind of uh hypotheses and and um declarations that uh Dr. Salvatore Pas from the Navy has has put out as as well as others. Um so um so yeah, I'm I'm interested in that. I think uh it's incumbent on um on anybody who really is digging deep into this issue to leave these stones unturned is really not a

good idea. uh because this world is so strange that we have to have an open mind to lots of uh uh possibilities that might seem ridiculous or fantastic. I don't know how ridiculous it is because you do have Igor Witkowski who's this Polish journalist who's gone fairly deep on this idea. We know this existed um you know Scot works uh which had two locations in modern day Poland and modern day Czechoslovakia. You you have these underground tunnels

and you have you can see a test rig there and the test rig looks like it would work with some sort of bell-shaped And so I I find that you know absolutely fascinating. There's a great British journalist named Nick Cook who wrote a book called The Hunt for Zero Point. And he actually investigated all of this and he you know he he would again say we know commerce is real. you know, he's seen the test rig, he's gone underground and stuff and not a ton of evidence there, but there's some cables that are really interesting and intriguing. And then it was rumored that Walter Gerlock,

year inside this thing, you walk out, you're a thousand years in the future. It sounds so fantastical and kind of insane, but from, you know, theoretically from like a general relativity perspective, it actually doesn't break much. And you don't even have to, you know, kind of combat uh Stephen Hawkings chronological conjecture because you're not talking about backwards time travel. Anyways, it's all super fascinating, but you've uncovered some connections between the Nazis and their interest in the occult and esoteric

uh as to how they might have kind of been clued into the architecture of this DLA bell. You know that moment when you slip into something and instantly wonder how you ever lived without it? That's exactly how I felt the first time I put on Chubby's original stretch shorts. The super elastic waistband feels like it was custom made for comfort. And that 5 1/2 in inseam hits the perfect balance between freedom and still being classy. I've been rocking mine on hikes, backyard barbecues, and of course researching for this show. And they

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Chubbies has you covered. For a limited time, Chubbies is giving our viewers 20% off your order with our code Jesse at That's code jesse. Jes sysshorts.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Don't blend in with the crowd. Stand out with Chubbies. Well, uh, f first, uh, uh, what I would say, Jesse, is that, um, I, uh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I I don't dispute that what Wowski and

Frell report is is for the most part, you know, correct. The question is, how effective were these programs, the Nazis? Did they did they really succeed at what they were aiming at? Um, but you know, uh, when you talk about things that I've uncovered, it's others have uncovered it. I I've just happened to have read about it. But, but certainly I think it's pretty well documented that the the Nazis had this uh had this um, attraction to the occult uh, that led

them to investigate all sorts of uh, of uh, odd things, mystical things even. And I think it was Whitowski who um who uh described their expeditions to the Himalayas in search of these Aryan myths um and trying to chase those down. And of course, one of the interesting uh Himalayan myths that's pertinent to this issue or the I hope I'm pronouncing this right. If not, I hope experts will

forgive me. But the vim vimeina uh phenomena. And what's interesting is that there are suggestions in those Vimina traditions that uh that these gods who flew around in these airships uh which by the way could fly the way UAP do allegedly uh that they used um uh sort of these rotating um uh uh cylinders filled with a with a form of mercury. And of course that's what

Vidcowski uh says that the Nazi bell program was doing. It was a it was a red mercury compound in these cylinders, these counterrotating cylinders that was producing these uh these levitation effects. So it's a very interesting uh uh correlation. Maybe the Nazis were convinced that these uh these Himalayan traditions were uh were on to something uh there. Um, and of course uh for students of the history of the Cold War

at the tail end of the uh of the Cold War and into the '9s uh coming out of the former Soviet Union were all these stories about this substance called red mercury that was uh alleged to have these amazing properties and that it was being sold on the black market and so on. And u you know most of the intelligence community I think who studied this uh concluded that it was a hoax that it was fraudulent. Um but uh there you have it. You know there was a

black market in red mercury. So this this whole thing pops up again in in much more uh modern times. So it's interesting. I like I like uh uh leaving no stone unturned and trying to connect dots and see if there's any basis for it. It's fascinating. You also we we just got uh breakfast and you were telling me about some very interesting overlaps between American investigations into foo fighters. Fu fighters are these seemingly controlled ball lightning kind

of the investigations of the Foo Fighter phenomenon both in in the European uh theater as well as in the uh in the uh in the Far East in the U uh Pacific theater. Um, and indeed, you know, you read the accounts of the Foo Fighter phenomenon and they're they read almost exactly like uh postworld war II and up to the present time accounts of UAP. Uh, so I I'm pretty confident that we're

dealing with the same phenomenon. And indeed uh what what's what's really important about the foo fighter phenomenon is you know if you think back on the context um the allies were paranoid about German uh uh innovation and uh and you know the chance that they were working on some very exotic technologies that would really really disadvantage the allied forces. And when the foo fighter phenomenon was was becoming, you know,

uh noticed and a thing, uh I think it's perfectly clear that the allies were intelligence services and operational commanders were really worried. What the hell is this? And does it represent some German secret uh exotic weapons And uh it was studied and I think it was studied pretty carefully. And one of the people that was uh assigned to conduct that study happened to be Dr. Howard

20th and 26th and 27th, 1952. That's right. So, in the wake of that, uh, the Robertson panel made these recommendations uh in secret. One recommendation was to uh that the US government needed to be out debunking uh the existence or you know of any reality of about these uh uh UFO phenomena. But then their their second recommendation which is not always uh noted uh in the accounts of it is that uh uh they they

they they strongly recommended that the government figure out how to detect and track these uh these anomalous UFO types of phenomenon in order they said to differentiate between you know a real Russian Soviet bomber coming over the North Pole and uh versus some UFO, right? So, this was a practical matter as they put it. But, uh but nonetheless,

it's interesting that they really recommended that the government figure out how to detect and track and differentiate these things from real uh um uh uh fighters and and bombers. Um so, yeah. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that and this is pertinent to your point is that uh we started in World War II to really

uh think about and worry about UFOs. We just called them foo fighters, right? And I think that this is uh this is an important lesson uh when contemplating whether the United States government ever took and has ever taken UFOs seriously. You bet your ass they they have. Oh yeah. Well, nobody can dispute that those that HP Robertson, who was a Caltech physicist, and Luis Walter Alvarez, went out there

And then who knows if this is correlated, but James Dittle comes back and I believe he becomes the chair of Naka uh you know and um you know uh looks into like kind of exotic propulsion modalities in in the US after that. And so I do think you have to ask your question if you're you have to ask ask the question if you're a complete skeptic. You want to write off the whole UFO thing. Where did those inquiries go? Cuz I I believe that you know we've made progress since then. Um so yeah, I think it's the whole thing is so fascinating. So let's shift gears a little bit. Um,

Kirk, have you spoken to anybody um in a classified setting or not who has seen craft firsthand? You mean seen recovered craft recovered craft andor uh stuff that we may have Um yes. Uh uh these are people who uh found their way one way or another to us on Capitol Hill and met with uh with

senators and who made precisely those kinds of claims. When you say stuff that we could have built, you don't mean a B2 or F-17 or F35 going down, right? Uh the allegations are that we have uh reverse engineer we have reverse engineered uh something that that at least uh has some of the capabilities that uh that UFOs and UAP have uh have reportedly displayed. At that point that's such a

bold claim. How do you follow up and try to get like a smoking gun that this is not of human origin and that this isn't some super sophisticated tech protection program that's trying to sigh off our civilian government, which again may be primmaaccia absurd, but like extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence. Um I'm not fond of that uh of that assertion by the way. I agree. Well, [laughter] I think in the UFO stuff, we have extra we have an abundance of evidence and we need

extraordinary investigation and and we, you know, we're just sort of like mentally like, you know, not in the right our priors don't allow us to actually accept that this is real and we don't do the proper investigating. But well, Jesse, I would say first of all that you're you know, your question is how do you how do how does one go about um you know, proving this? Yeah. and and uh I I will um I will take that with respect to my personal uh uh situation

as a as a staff [snorts] member for a committee in Congress uh that we had very limited ability to uh to determine the the veracity of these of these reports. Uh first of all uh the folks who who were you know telling this uh making these claims uh were not willing to be uh to have to come out in public uh for the most part. Dave Grush is an is an exception but

Dave doesn't claim absolute direct you know firsthand uh firsthand knowledge. So, you know, people did not want to they were afraid to uh to uh come forward publicly. But in addition, you know, if they the more specifics they gave you, the more they were worried about about them being identified be by the by u you know the uh security services being able to tell well

congress is saying that somebody told them this well this there's a small number of people that knew that right so uh so uh it's not that we had so much specific actionable information that uh that we were able to act on. But but uh more fundamentally um you know for Congress to undertake the kind of investigation that would be necessary to pry through

the kinds of um security structures that have allegedly been built around this topic. you know, uh that's a big lift for uh for for for elected members of Congress like uh you know uh uh investigations you know like the uh you know church uh uh Pike postwatergate investigations or Iran Contra

um uh these members have to be pretty confident that there are really important, no kidding, uh reality uh behind behind uh the issues, right? So, you kick off a no holdsb barred investigation, you better be damn sure that that there's a uh that there's a a prize there uh or, you know, something that's that's for sure going to be discovered and revealed. And I I don't

think that Congress feels that collectively that they're at that point yet. Um I think uh this is why you consistently hear the the appeal for more uh for more people with direct sources uh to come forward. um you know, ideally in public um but at least in private um uh come come to Congress and uh and and

and tell your story. Do these people are you sussing them out? Do they seem genuinely afraid for their lives? Do they seem like these kind of slick operators where it's like they could pull the wool over your eyes or like what what how do they pattern match? Cuz I imagine even for your own you're a curious human being. You have to be thinking, "This person is telling me they're rec recovering alien extraterrestrial craft. I want to know if this is true for not only for humanity and for the US, but like for myself." And so, how are you how are you

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Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode. Well, I I would say uh Jesse that uh that clear sense is that I and most if not all of the colleagues, staff colleagues who were involved and uh and certainly some of the key uh senators who were um found these individuals to be

Um and uh and you know sane and uh and to your question about did they were were they believable when they would say when they would express concerns for their own safety and that of their families and of their careers. Uh I would say that's very definitely uh was um was credible. I mean I what I mean by that is we believed them that they felt that way.

Um and uh it was almost in some cases palpable. I can recall um an instance where one uh source uh when when when uh you know uh an explanation of what they uh of what they knew uh was visibly shaking. I mean physically uh so stressed uh about it. So, so yeah, I think I don't

think that these folks are are making it up. Um, they uh they feel that there's uh there are grave risks and you know, and these are people that have not gone public. They're not the whistleblowers the public knows. Well, that's that's right. Uh I don't want to uh give the wrong impression. It's not like there's hordes of these people that or dozens even, but there's a there's a handful. Yep. Um and and and um and and they are very concerned.

They don't feel safe to come out fully Yes, that's right. Um uh um I it's it's like they have the sort of the fear of God uh in them. Um about the consequences. Are are you aware of people who've died or faced retribution around coming out or um Well, I don't think you need to look any further than the case of Dave Garage. Um I mean, he's not even a uh you know, what you'd call a firsthand

witness uh or source. Um but, uh you know, Dave uh Dave had a hard go of it and some of the the things that have happened to him are not uh even in the public domain. Yeah, I believe and um and so um yeah uh I I think there's real um there's real risk. I mean this is not uh to come out is is almost clearly not career enhancing uh no to to be sarcastic uh about it.

Um and I would say look you know Lou Alzando is you know had to go find another career path you know uh as has Dave. Um I think Lou's also talked about being on a hit list. Yeah, they have uh they they have they believe that they uh that that has that that has happened. Um so um so uh I can't uh I can't positively assert that uh that that uh that this is these things are true. Um

but neither can I uh can I dismiss him. Have you spoken to anybody who claims to have seen biologics? Um, let me think about that one. Um, if I personally know people, I think the answer to that is no. Um, I don't think that I personally know someone who has seen who claims to have seen uh biologic. How in this how in your assessment is the program run? I think what I struggle

with personally as do a lot of other people uh is is like there's clearly no chain clear central chain of command or if there is it's extremely well hidden and it seems like these sort of uh middle management cutouts in various organizations where like leadership in those specific organizations are half aware that these things even exist and money is being funneled from other kind of private you know interest or whatever. The whole thing seems insane. Like I've I've personally heard of

extremely high ranking members of government where they're not, you know, clued in. They're not briefed to this stuff and then their deputies are. And you hear something like that and you're like, how does that even work? Like what? That makes no sense on some level. Maybe it does in this sort of, you know, super swampy, you know, bureaucratic mess that is Washington. But yeah, how do you how do you make sense of it? Uh Jesse, the short answer is I can't make sense of it. I I uh what the way you've characterized uh what is out there in

terms of what people um have people have said, you know, confidentially um and otherwise is is right. uh and I think uh based upon the uh the amount of information that I have uh I don't think it's possible to to uh to to actually uh determine with confidence uh uh what what the management structure if if one exists

what it looks like. Does it make any sense at all? Is it uh is it sort of this uh this crazy uh spaghetti uh that that you've kind of described and how could that possibly be true? Um I think uh I think this is uh the answers to this uh uh conundrum uh will have to await you know some some genuine disclosure. Trump has talked a lot about other disclosures. all uh Jeffrey

Epstein, JFK, 911, things of that nature. You have the Department of Government Efficiency sort of running, you know, rough shod through a lot of these sort of bloated, you know, agencies. Uh do you think we have any disclosures on the UAP front and maybe even, you know, beyond that, do we get disclosures about like is is any of Tesla's work still, you know, classified? is I'm pretty sure Thomas Towns and Brown's work is still classified by the Navy. So, do we get

scientific disclosures or disclosures around UAP UFO? I really have no idea. Of course, the um uh there's there's been um a lot of observers of the of the UAP issue who have uh have taken heart from the public positions of a a decent number of advi uh adviserss and now cabinet members uh and even you know uh

the national security adviser uh saying positive things about UAP transparency and uh and there was a lot of optimism that uh we we will see uh um uh a new level of disclosure and transparency from this administration. Uh so far uh I don't think we've uh we've we've seen uh you know significant indications that

that's going to happen. Uh, frankly, I think the first uh, you know, official act that the Trump administration took in dismissing what was going on up in uh, New Jersey, for example, that this was an FAA regulated uh, set of set of events. Um, it it does not bode well. Um I uh and furthermore, I think that there's some uh you know developing disappointment that whenever uh the

Trump administration [clears throat] uh lists its uh its objectives with regard to uh revealing u u you know uh really significant uh classified information about the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, Martin Luther King [clears throat] um and Jeffrey Epstein and so on. You know, they list all those and then it sometimes seems like the UFO issue uh is

either mentioned sort of in passing at the end or not mentioned at all. Uh so uh we'll have to obviously wait and see what happens. Um, but uh uh I think that there's uh reasons to be concerned that we might not get uh the tr the uh disclosure that people had hoped for. How big was the Senate Armed Services Committee when you were on it? How many You mean how many members? How many? Roughly two dozen. A little a little more. I think uh they've actually

expanded in this current session again up to 27 members. Okay. So what Yeah. What percentage of those 24 to 27 members believe that UFOs are real and being systematically looked into in a government context? Jesse, I could not possibly speculate on that. And uh and um you know uh if if if I did know, I it's not something that I would want to reveal. This is uh Were you a total lone wolf, I guess, is

what I'm trying to say. Were you completely isolated in believing this or um No, there were certainly uh there were certainly some members who by their actions um uh clearly conveyed that they were um uh interested in this topic and believed that there was uh you know a reason to push the government to um um to reveal more uh of of what uh they

believe the government knows about this topic. Um, you know, um, uh, is is every member of the Senate Armed Services Committee or the Senate Intelligence Committee, um, you know, a believer? Uh, I would say, uh, I really have no idea. Um, was there interest in this? Uh, yeah. And I think uh I think there's um you know there's there's sort of gradations here because you know they're all concerned uh everyone in national

security is concerned about these uh these uh overflights of sensitive sensitive facilities. Uh what what's really hard to figure out is how much of that is like uh uh you know hobby shop drones. Uh how much of that is uh is potentially you know some adversary uh but still um uh far from anomalous. you know, sort of conventional types of drone

technologies versus what is uh perhaps anomalous uh genuinely and what might be uh exotic technology of an adversary or uh or or something that's genuinely uh non-human intelligence uh and so forth. Um, I think everyone is interested in the security of our sensitive facilities and uh and want uh the government to figure out what the hell's going on at places like uh Langley Air Force Base

and our air bases in the UK and uh over sensitive facilities in New Jersey or wherever they may be. You hear things uh reportedly from David Grush like Dick Cheney is was a gatekeeper for the legacy UFO efforts. I mean on the one hand it would kind of make sense because he seems to have been you know if there was anybody who was kind of running you know the show behind George W. Bush it was probably Dick Cheney. And so that kind of comports with our understanding

of this whole issue of like, you know, it's almost like Lord of the Rings, if you have the the ring or something, you know, that confers some sort of weird power. Um, and then on the other hand, it's just so absurd. I mean, Dick Cheney is very old, but he's still alive and he's a very high-profile person. So, a part of me is just like, I mean, just ask the guy. Like, do you do you uh do do you think that Dick Cheney had any involvement with UFOs? Well, uh there's a difference here between what I think, you know, there's evidence for and what I personally u uh

kind of believe. Um what I would say is uh that we've certainly heard the same accounts that uh that you're referring to that uh and the p you know the the the the sequence goes like this that uh George HW Bush as the director of CIA uh was read in allegedly to this uh legacy so-called legacy program and that um and that he passed on what he knew

about that to his son George W. Um and that uh and it is it is reported by some that the George W. the Bush uh did uh you know really take a more hands-on approach to the UFO UAP issue and uh it has been reported by some that yes uh Dick Cheney as vice president was the was in was sort of in charge of that

uh and that uh his national security staff and the national security council staff uh were involved uh how many of them I've never heard a report claiming, you know, um uh uh claiming any knowledge about how extensive the staff uh was involved in that, but certainly we've heard those uh those reports. Yeah. Um but I just can't tell you uh for sure that that uh that that happened. [clears throat] Now, you know,

there was a report that um that the National Security Council under uh George W. Bush did commission a study of whether the time was had come for quote disclosure and that they uh they they studied the matter. They they uh let out a contract and it was uh you know there was an assessment done and then it was debated and uh the conclusion that was

reached was that no the time was not right yet. It would uh it would be still uh uh Yeah. Well catastrophic. You know there would be the the consequences the negative consequences would would outweigh the benefits. Let's put it that way at a minimum. Um and uh this was this story was reported to Sean Kirkpatre at Arrow and we subsequently heard from uh Shawn uh directly that

that he had um uh looked into this or had somebody look into it and that indeed there there had been a contract for such a study and the uh the basis of the study was um uh was suppose the United States government had in its possession and I forget the number you know six or 12 uh recovered um extraterrestrial craft

and should the United States government disclose this fact? Okay. Um what was said to us uh from Sean Kirkpatre is that uh there was such a study but it was purely an academic exercise that um there was just um you know an entity in the defense department uh I think it was probably the office of net assessment which is the the futuristic um uh uh element within the within the

department that is supposed to look at uh uh strange what if kinds of scenarios that they had decided to just for the heck of it uh postulate what if we had a bunch of crashed UFOs uh should we reveal it or not I think that kind of strange credul that somebody in why would you ever simulate something that if you're convinced isn't real it's so absurd why would in the hypothetical scenario that we had unicorns in our possession we have to figure out a plan

I mean that's crazy also Hal Putoff is on record saying he consulted for this net assessment. National security adviser Steven Hadley was involved and that they you know came to the conclusion that you mentioned which is that the the uh you know costs outweighed the benefits as far as disclosure went. So one of them is lying and I don't think it's Hal put off. Yeah, I think Hal is a pretty straight shooter. Um and uh that's why when you you asked the question I said personally I tend to believe that this uh took

nuclear sites, tampering with the comms, shutting down missile silos. In certain cases, the employees board crafts and get, you know, they wake up miles away. It's fascinating stuff. And he and many of the witnesses say that, you know, testimonies to Kirk Patrick, the guy's not taking notes. Mhm. He's not he's literally just listening to this these sacred very important stories that are dear and that are very personal to these people that you know profound and then sort of there's just

no there's never any follow-up. Yeah. And so I guess my question is we know that there is a um long-standing tradition in government of obfiscation around the UFO topic. You had Edward Condan was, you know, created the Condan Committee and all the people on the Condan Committee were like, "This is a bad faith effort and we didn't actually, you know, like anything that even made it into study was like already ruled out as like a, you know, hoax or a bad case." You have letters now between Condan and Air Force Colonel Robert Hipler where Hitler is saying, "We want this to be shown as a waste of money."

And Condan kind of implicitly complying with that. Absolutely. [clears throat] I don't think implicitly. I think explicitly. And Condan also is a longtime associate of Robert Robert Oppenheimer's and goes way back when it comes to atomic secrecy. In fact, if you believe David Grush, which I do, the Atomic Energy Commission, which created UFO secrecy in 1954, the precursor to that was the McMahon Secrecy Act of 46, which Condan wrote. So, the person writing UFO secrecy is then going on to debunk it. So, the whole thing's so ridiculous. Is Kirk Patrick a modern

version of that? Well, um, look, I don't like to cast dispersions, uh, unnecessarily, for sure. And I've known Sean actually for 20 years, uh, and I had worked with him, uh, a good bit. Wow. You've known that for two for 20 I I have known known Sean for a long time. I knew him from when he was a program manager at the National Reconnaissance Office. Um and subsequently uh we stayed in touch

through his uh progress his career pro progression within the uh the defense intelligence community and principally DIA. Um and uh yeah you know uh in fact when we first started on the Senate Armed Services Committee to and Senate Intelligence Committee to investigate uh this matter after the New York Times article in 2017. Um, I involved Sean in in uh in our work. Uh, I invited him with some

Shawn to that meeting. Uh so uh but you know I I do feel that uh that Shawn uh that Shawn ended up uh taking a very traditional uh DoD line on on the UAP Do you think that was intellectually genuine or disingenuous? Uh look, I I I don't I don't know. Um I I personally feel that there was a point

at the beginning of his uh service as the director of Arrow that Shawn uh was uh was uh committed to um you know calling it as he as he saw it. Um I do feel like there might have been then some change. Uh and you know there's speculation that he was uh read into the legacy program and wow and told uh you know in no uncertain

terms that you know uh you need to uh sustain the the the sort of the party line that's been in existence for so long. But look I have no idea if actually happened or didn't he work at Oakidge National Labs too? So well let's see. Uh Sean uh I don't know like before he took the arrow job what association if any he had with Oakidge but um he did uh start working

with Oakidge uh you know he created um he created an advisory group I can't remember what it was called officially but I think that group still exists and the contract for that for the formation of that group to advise him at Arrow. The contract was let through Oakidge and then when Shawn retired from the government. Um he is working with and for Oakidge under contract now.

Seems like a potential conflict of interest. If you believe that UFO secrecy has anything to do with atomic secrecy, which I'm assuming you do. I believe that. Yeah, that seems like an issue possibly that there's financial outflows from the organization that you're supposed to be Yeah, conflicts of interest are allegations are easy to make uh but not so easy to sort out. But uh but it is uh it is it is certainly worth taking note of uh if if if uh if nothing else. I just I just don't see you know I've

spoken to a lot of the same people as him and like these people are good people. They're honest. Like this guy Mario Woods, 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. Maybe you are familiar with his case. I don't think I am. Well, he's, you know, a lot of these guy he was, you know, uh, woke up 9 miles near Lake New. This is in Robert Hastings book. Robert Hastings book. And um, you know, he had this just profound experience and then he maintained his queue clearance for 20 years after that. And if you

think this guy is having an anomalous incident that you've never heard about before, why wouldn't you strip him of his Q clearance if you hadn't had heard it a million times? Why wouldn't you strip him of his Q clearance if you've, you know, uh, this is the just a oneofone case and the guy's claiming something that ostensibly seems crazy? And then he describes this whole protocol of them checking his teeth and doing medical stuff and it's like it was as if they had seen this a million times before. Yeah. And you have to think of 170 of these people, which is a large number, have

in my brain is malfunctioning and like, you know, I need to be taken off air or like there's something weird going on I don't disagree at all. And with regard to the notes part, you know, first of all, it was objectionable to me personally that the AROW office didn't like videotape and and record at least record everything that was said, but they didn't operate that way. I my understanding is they did take notes. I don't I'm not saying that Sean Kirkpatre himself took notes, but but my

understanding was that that at least in all the episodes that I've heard about, the interviews that I've heard about, there was somebody at least taking Um uh but, you know, that seems insufficient to me. Uh you need to hear, you know, to record verbatim what was said. Furthermore, as you noted, uh these things would then just go into a black hole. the the record of these interviews. Um I mean I think uh Hal Putoff and Eric Davis to this day have

never been shown the notes from their meetings with Arrow. Uh for them to review and say yes this is this is accurate. This is what I said and this is what happened. Uh it's it's just uh they never heard from him again. And and in certain cases, you know, Hastings has mentioned that the evidence is gets erased or something. So they'll say, you've heard that too. I have heard that. So it's like the tapes are here of this UFO thing and then the tapes are gone right after they tell them that.

Oh yeah, I thought you meant like uh like their their interview uh the interview notes or you know what was what was provided to Arrow. No, I hear that the primary material in certain cases they'll say the location and then there's a weird breakin or something after. Well, I don't know, but uh but I know there was an episode uh like this with Lou Alzando where he told them of a particular location, an office, a safe a safe drawer, and the uh only to be told that when uh when they

opened it up, there was nothing there. So, these are worome reports for sure. Um, so but but Jesse, you know, you you you uh you mentioned uh Robert Hastings and all of these uh events that happened at nuclear weapons Um you know, this is this is so important to to this question about does the government take this matter

seriously? And again, you know, we started out talking about the Foo Fighter experience in World War II, but you know, after the war, as soon as uh as soon as the, you know, the uh the United States started building substantial nuclear forces and you know, the the the uh there's there's just this constant visitation and monitor ing by uh at the least by

UAP. Um when you get into the 1960s, there are these amazing um uh events that happen. You you mentioned Robert Jacobs uh the big su event in 1964. Uh but you know, Dr. Harold Mongrren has uh alerted the world as it were to to events that took place in 1962. uh in fact some of them at the height of the Cuban missile crisis. Uh this has

been uh documented by I think you as well as uh Jeff Krookshank from from Australia and and certainly a lot of Reddit uh um u uh users. Um you know uh Harold Mongrren before he passed away and and what a a tragic loss I might add. He was such a uh an incredible uh you know statesman uh diplomat uh defense thinker uh economist uh and so

forth. Uh but you know going back to 1962 he was the youngest of Magnamera's whiz kids. Um he was involved in the day-to-day uh deliberations about what to do uh when the Cuban missile crisis Um after the Cuban missile crisis uh was over, he was commissioned by Magnamera to lead a study of the potential for missile defenses to contribute to

develop um u missile defense options and to you know explore the potential for missile defenses to contribute to deterrence and uh you need to know that in uh the test that happened in October 26th 1962 at the height of the Cuban missile crisis there was a test of a special warhead designed to produce enhanced X-ray output uh called the XW51

uh X1 or something like that. It was amazing. Mongrren at 89 years old rattled off the name of that warhead uh from memory. Um and uh he's he's a genius. He is uh and it was um okay. So, so taking you back specifically to that event, um we set off that warhead. It was the Bluegill triple prime uh atmospheric test and it was designed to

destroy a dummy uh re-entry vehicle with this sizable warhead uh using enhanced X-rays. And the X-rays would would have caused this uh uh chain of events in the target where you would get this spalation from inside uh the inside layers of the re-entry vehicle and it would tear apart the uh the the re-entry vehicle. Um so this was the third attempt as I recall maybe even the fourth uh to test this uh device in the

atmosphere and it was successful. It it it exploded as planned and there were two RC 135 uh Cobra Ball airplanes up taking video of this. One I think representing Los Alamos, one representing Lawrence Liverour Lab and they each of those aircraft filmed this fireball and what happened uh to the uh test RV. And as soon as that fireball

erupts, you see this object come tumbling out of the fireball uh heading for the uh Pacific Ocean. Yeah, this video is available. It's open source and and you see it's really crazy because Lawrence Livermore, you see the object tumbling out and then Los Alamos, you see a white white triangle superimposing the video. I thought it was the other way around. I thought maybe I'm wrong. thought it was Livermore's that covered up the the the object and it was Los Alamos and and I think the warhead was a Los Alamos

Uh anyway, the trivia. No, no, no. That's good correction. But uh but uh yeah, so you actually see it this object clearly uh in the in the Los Alamos video and and what uh what uh Mongrren reported that he'd been told directly by Bissell is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring closely monitoring that test and it tumbled into the ocean and that the Navy picked it up. So, you mentioned that uh that the video of this test is

has been declassified and was released. I think it was back in the late 90s. And um and and also released or declassified and released were the ship logs cuz in tests like that, and this was out near Johnston ATL, uh the Navy would have a contingent of ships that would help uh to collect the debris and the sensors that had been deployed to uh watch the test. Okay, they would fall into the ocean, then they would be picked up. And uh part of

those uh the information in those ships logs is that they picked up some highly radioactive debris. One was described as a black sphere. Another was described as a green tube uh that were not part of the instrument package that they were supposed to pick up. These were anomalous items floating in the water that that they tested them with uh with radioactive detectors and they had been highly uh uh they were highly radioactive, meaning they had

been very close to the fireball and they retrieved those. And then there's also a log that says the Navy also conducted a salvage operation. So this lines up perfectly with what Mgrren was told by Richard Bissell. I think Malgrren even more than that was in charge of costing for the these missile defense systems. So he was he was in charge of that and I think he wanted to he was like frustrated at not being sort of read in because he had blanket Q clearances. And

so he then as a result of that goes and visits Loris Lawrence G or Geese um who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather and the Albuquerque director of the atomic energy commission because the materials get taken from the Marshall Islands Johnson ATL to uh uh Sandia National Laboratories and um so Malgrim actually investigates this on behalf of the Kennedy administration. So the whole thing is so fascinating and then I think a month later Kennedy goes and visits less Alamos which you know I don't know

if that's a coincidence. Uh actually uh Kennedy uh this has been documented by uh Jeff Krookshank. He's he's amazing research. He's listed the uh the attendees on that trip and it was Kennedy and Johnson and uh the national security adviser I think George Mc George Mcundy. It was M Mc Bundy. Mc Bundy. Yeah. Uh but then also um the famous general Curtis Lame was was part of that uh trip and Curtis Lame of

course I think at the time was was the commander of Wright Patterson uh air force base. Um so at any event there was an interesting um uh a very interesting delegation uh soon after the Cuban missile crisis does go on this tour of various u uh nuclear uh uh installations and facilities out west. Um Mongrren also made a trip during which as you say I think he he met with Lawrence Geese or Gis however you pronounce it and um and

others. Um, so, so here's here's the other interesting thing though. 5 weeks that bluegill triple prime test, there was another uh, there was another test. This one was of a new uh, re-entry vehicle designed by a company that's now defunct uh, or been absorbed many times over called AVCO. And uh Avco had built a new re-entry vehicle called the MarkV.

And this too has all been declassified where uh uh in the test of that new RV, it is released, you know, close to the atmosphere and you see it traveling at very high speed and starting to re-enter the atmosphere and all of a sudden behind it you see this bright white light that catches up to the RV over a fairly significant distance. it catches up to the RV and accompanies it further in its trajectory. And in the official

report uh made to the defense department about this test, it says right in there, objects of unknown origin and identity were tracking or pacing, I forget the exact words that were used, this uh the MarkV re-entry vehicle. So, this is a this is a UFO. This is a UFO that is closely flying and catching up to a warhead that's going, I [clears throat] don't know, 10,000 miles.

What test was this? What was this Um, you know, uh, Jesse, I don't remember the name of the test, but it's easily found. It It's in It was on September 19th, uh, 1962. Wow. And you see the records of Oh, sure. The video is online. There's a video and you see it. You see an unknown, a UFO catching up. Yes, you see it. Uh, I mean, you don't you don't see any details, but you see this this white object, this luminous object come roaring up, uh, uh, chasing the chasing the re-entry vehicle.

That's wild. Can Can you send that to me? I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah, [clears throat] we we'll link that for So, uh, so, so, and and it was reported in the official reports. Unbelievable. And and so so then so then let's fast forward like two years and approximately a little 18 months and Robert Jacobs is has an assignment out uh in Big Su, California to film uh this test of um of an ICBM launched from Vandenberg in Atlas. And uh and it's got

a dummy warhead on it. And according to Robert Jacobs and his commanding officer, Major Mansman, I mean, this is a well-known story. Um, this re-entry vehicle is moving at like I forget the the number 9,000 to 12,000 m an hour. And you see this according to the witnesses of this video that you see a UFO and it is saucershaped and it starts flying around the re-entry vehicle and shooting uh some beams at it and that

and that it disabled this uh this test re-entry vehicle. And then CIA suits show up and kind of confiscate the video and um and then basically Jacobs is erased from the government. You know, they say that he never worked at the government. Yeah. And um yeah, the whole thing's kind of crazy. And then and then he gets all these threats. His mailblocks blows up. Eventually, uh Floren Mansman, his superior has to admit that actually Bob Jacobs did work in fact for Vandenberg and managed, you know, I think 130

people or something. Yes. His team was quite large. So now he's being sort of vindicated. But yeah, it's really wild what he had to sort of go through. And Lou Alzando uh says that he has seen the video. That's correct. Lou says that he had a and he says he has backups of the video. And so I would Lou, if you're watching this, please release that video. Just release the vid. I mean, the vi that video would be so effective and powerful. Do you think it would be like the sources and methods thing that would endanger our because I mean you're talking about 1964,

you know, technology. I think that would just be a net positive for humanity and not reveal anything as far as national There is a uh there is an account that contests Robert Jacobs account um by uh by a man with some very good credentials uh who claims that uh Jacobs was confused about which date there of this test and so on and so forth. It's a long complicated story. Um but uh you know uh

the defense department arrow has uh has taken the position that uh that Jacobs was wrong in what he said claims to have seen. Mhm. Uh but my point is like if you look back at what happened in 1962 as documented by Harold Monggrren and uh and others and we have the video evidence that lends a lot of credibility to Robert Jacob's story. Oh yeah. Because it's the same phenomena.

It's the same phenomena. I mean, one you could say is sending X-rays out in a way that actually if you have a uh you know, a vehicle referencing the magneettosphere of the Earth like that's a lot of people think that's how UFOs might fly. Just like you know uh aven cryptochromes like these birds that have the CR Y4 protein, they use electron spin to sense where the Earth is and that helps them navigate home. So they use kind of quantum biology, quantum sensing to actually navigate

that theoretically is how you know the UFOs might sense. And so if you're messing with the local magneettosphere, you could see these things sort of crashing. Whereas I think the uh the dummy blast, the nuclear dummy blast of of you know 1964 with with Bob Jacobs that points a little more towards this sort of threebody problem like you know the UFOs are sort of uh you know worried about like you know the tip of the spear of our advancements in weaponry. They're worried about us disturbing you know our

our biosphere and and and taking ourselves out. Either way, very similar. it's very similar phenomena. And the point is is that it appears like UAP were flying around watching our ICBM tests and our nuclear warhead tests in the atmosphere. Well, there's so much documentation of that. If you just if anybody actually reads Robert Hastings book, which is I feel like that half the reason my show exists is to just tell people to read that book because that's like the most, you know, [clears throat] it's just so canonical and and and

detailed and document. You have these I don't know. It's I'm a big fan of Joe Rogan, but it's like sometimes I'm like, dude, just read that book and you'll like be a little less confused because at least you can start with a foundation. you're not having to ping off of all these desperate kind of you know contemporary witnesses just read that book like I he's like doesn't have time he's very busy but you know or Tulsi or any of these people in power like just read that but that book is so because it helps you start with a baseline of like you know like that

would be a huge that would be like the bottom of the Jenga block as far as my like intellectual foundation of this. So, if you were to pull that, it would be, you know, I would have to admit it would really shake my foundation on this whole this whole topic. Um, but it it's just so solid. It's so meticulously written and um, you know, I think uh, if if you actually read it and you talk to Hastings, you know, who I've become friends with, it's it's it's hard to deny. So, it is. Well, well, Jesse, one final thing on this on this point is that I mean,

imagine this. We we resumed atmospheric testing in 1962 after the Soviets uh violated the unofficial moratorum on atmospheric nuclear tests. So we resume testing. We're going through this very very tense obviously this crisis with the Soviet Union over over missiles in Cuba. And during this uh during at the height of this, this UFO is downed by by

a nuclear warhead. Okay. And and on September 19th, you have this UFO tracking catching up with a a warhead, the AFCO warhead going 10,000 12,000 mph. Two years later, you have it the same thing happened with Robert Jacobs event in in California. Do you can you imagine the defense department just saying, "Oh, well, these UFOs are tracking our shit." Yeah. Uh and but we don't we're not concerned

about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's inconceivable. They would have been they would have been crapping in their pants. Of course. Yeah. And there's nothing else that could I mean, do you think that the Soviets at that time had an ability across the world to have a a spaceship that could accelerate faster than an incoming RV and and and catch up to it and monitor it? No. And in the case of Bob Salis, you know, Malmstrom 1967 literally shut down our

missile silo. Like no, no, that's obviously not the If you can shut down our ICBMs, I mean game set match, you win the war. That's the that is the scariest thing that you can imagine for the National Command Authority. No, the So the Soviets would have won the war. If you had that ability to do that in a repeatable, predictable way technologically, that would be that would be it. So anyone who thinks that the United States government wouldn't have been paying the closest possible attention to the UFO phenomena all these years, it's it's nuts. It's inconceivable to me. I

why do you think that hasn't been effective? And do you think we end up with stronger whistleblower protections so people can actually come out? Well, this too is uh is a kind of um is a kind of uh catch 22. you know, we need you know, more direct sources with direct involvement to come forward. I hear this constantly from from folks on the hill both before I uh retired and since. Um and yet whistleblowers don't

want to come forward because they're afraid of retribution and retaliation and and so then you say, "Well, we need better whistleblower protections." But to get whistleblower protections, uh, you have to convince people in Congress who, uh, who are worried about the what is the right balance of whistleblower protections versus, uh, versus, uh, you know, good order and discipline and having people uh, having

people follow uh, follow orders and stay in their place in the bureaucracy and so on. The whole degree of general whistleblower protections is is is complex. Uh I don't pretend to understand the politics of it, but I know enough to know that it is a complicated issue. And if you come forward and say, "I need special protections for a special limited class of people." Uh then everyone else who

wants to protect uh whistleblowers says, "Oh, why should I give you special protections for one small class of people? We need to expand protections for everybody." And then but then you have uh those who are dubious about enhanced whistleblower protections uh saying well we're not going to do that. So do you have a solution to this? Um well uh a solution is a little bit hard to come by. Uh but I think that we just have to hope for one of two things.

either the executive branch decides it's going to pursue disclosure or B we get more people to uh gird their loins and and decide that uh that it's just something that has to be done. They don't have to go public. Um my view the problem with that is it ends up in this liinal space of like it does you're sort of repeating their account and you have to do it in that really high level like I'm not convinced if somebody went on one of these

whistleblowers just went on Rogan like tomorrow and just talked about what they know and they really tried to protect the you know national trade secret side of this but just was it was really clear that you know sort of Bob Lazard 2.0 know, but without the details that, you know, make it, you know, easy to sort of, you know, uh uh detract from from the testimony, I think that would a get tons and tons of attention and b you'd have sort of this like people's champion immunity and you'd have a president and

Trump and his whole cabinet that has promised, you know, transparency. Maybe they don't quite understand the UFO issue. Maybe it's not a priority, but seeing that person after, you know, going so being so public getting persecuted, I I don't know. I think that's that feels like that would be a very tall order. Jesse, I'm with you. I think that going public can really bring some protections for you. Now, you know, Dave Grush might say, you know, what about me? Uh cuz they went after him even when he went

public as a result of him going public. So, I I get it. Um, it's a it's a but I think he felt I think he feels safer postgoing public than pre the the scariest period is when they they probably have intel that you're going to go public and you haven't gone public yet, But once you've gone public, it's it's pretty hard to, you know, completely destroy somebody's life. I mean, that's Jesse. I will also say, especially in the digital age, people are waking up and they can trace things better. And I think they're sniffing out BS to be honest just on on levels that

you know it's like you had the whole Epste the Epstein thing went on for so long and other things like it and I don't see things like that quite working today. I mean the things that do work today are like you know mass surveillance and just like super quiet stuff but like really going after individuals and trying to blackmail like that stuff's it's it's I don't think that's super effective on a go forward basis. I tend to agree with you. Um I and you know the other thing is is that um

the people in the people who are close to people who we want to come forward you know the the Hal Putoffs, Eric Davis, Dave Grush, Lou Alzando, Chris Melon and so on. you know, they all tell us that they know people who whose whose preference would be to be able to tell the truth about this. Um, but they what they report is that these sources are afraid of uh not, you

know, losing their jobs, losing their clearances, which effectively ends their career in national security, but they also are dreadfully worried about being prosecuted. M and you know uh and but but my view about that is that you know I just don't believe that that it would happen. First of all I don't either. There's a young lawyer named uh Dylan Guthrie who's got a piece uh that's come out in um in Harvard Law Review I believe and in a in a small

section of his uh of his lengthy u he talks about uh the fact that he has done at least some investigating and he has found so far that there is not a single instance that he's come across where uh a person got indicted and prosecuted or even indicted I think uh for having revealed information in an appropriately secure manner with

Congress. Okay. Uh this isn't about going public but you know if you contact Congress and behind closed doors you convey to them information that uh was not yet shared or shared in full with Congress by the executive branch. The government has never uh prosecuted uh a case like that and and because it gets into very murky constitutional issues about what are the rights and privileges of the executive branch versus the uh

legislative branch. Right? Okay. Moreover, imagine this. Imagine if a whistleblower uh a source comes to the Senate Intelligence Committee and says, "Here's what I know." and lays it all out. Uh, and the government then says, the executive branch says, "You shouldn't, it's against it's against our rules for you to have said that to Congress. We're going to indict you and prosecute you." Now, imagine that, right? So, something that for 80 years

the government has denied the existence Yeah. Right. Right. and and Congress has passed laws requiring that it be kept fully informed of any s anything anything of significance for national security. So the executive branch has violated the law right that Congress passed and the president signed. Imagine them coming forward and said, "Yeah, we didn't tell Congress about this, but we're going to prosecute you for telling Congress." Yeah. You put you put them in a bind. Good luck. Yeah. Well, they Yeah. They have to admit that they that they have knowledge of this stuff. and and and the hypocrisy

of such a step like that, I think Congress would be I personally think they would be outraged totally and and would not abide for abide it. And so I I actually I actually think that the that the uh the fear of prosecution is is is unfounded. Now, it's easy for me to say I'm not uh the person whose livelihood and uh and security depends on uh you know is at stake here. So, I'm

I'm certainly uh I'm certainly uh um uh understanding if people listening to this would say, "Yeah, fine for you to say, but uh but I'm not I'm not taking the chance." But I really think that uh that it's something that that we have to we have to resolve. We have to figure out a way around this catch 22. We definitely do. A lot of this stuff seemed to come out around, you know, you have the Church Committee of 1975

and you know, this is I think it was a senator from Idaho, Frank Church, and he looked into all sorts of malfeasants on the part of the intelligence community uh stemming from, you know, Watergate, obviously rumors of like the, you know, Warren Commission around JFK assassination being totally compromised. I believe it was. Um, but also other revelations of, you know, MK Ultra and that sort of thing. Do you think any of that dovetales with this kind of UAP issue, especially maybe with respect to MK Ultra where we know now that they were doing kind of

experiments around telepathy? Like you had this guy Andre Puharic who was doing experiments with, you know, telepathic And is there a connection? Because when people claim to be abducted, they seem to communicate telepathically with the alien beings. Uh Jesse, I think it's a great question and it's something that I am really intrigued by because you know uh in the from the early 50s I believe I'm not a I'm not a serious student of this yet.

I'm certainly trying to read more and more about it. But from the 50s on up through some say it never went away even after uh the the church committee. Um uh you know about they were looking into mind control um uh you know uh remote viewing uh you know clairvoyance all all of that. Uh and and and that that overlay is in time

with us learning that enc people who uh non-human intelligence, they're being communicated with telepathically. And so just uh coincidentally the United States government all of a sudden decides to start investigating these same uh you know psychic uh powers and psychic issues. Uh, you know, I it looks that that's looks very suspicious to me. Like

one of the main reasons I suspect that we were studying that stuff and had those programs was because of what we were learning about UFOs and Um, admittedly, we had soldiers in the Korean War who were subjected to mind control stuff, you know, by the North Koreans and the Russians. Uh so that you know that certainly was was a stimulus right that I that I can't discount and I don't want to discount but uh but the rest of it uh is as I

think you're suggesting is is is very suspicious in terms of the uh the overlay with uh with the UFO problem. I would also like to mention I recently was told about the these things called the telepathy tapes which is is getting uh a lot of attention now and I've I've listened to you know a dozen of them and uh for those who um who aren't familiar with this um these are um are are

podcasts I guess sessions uh lengthy ones a whole series of them about uh caregivers uh um and um and and uh neuroscientists and psychologists who are working with non-speaking autistic people um children as well as as adults as they've as they've grown up. And these these people uh it seems pretty clear have some

mental telepathy capabilities and they they connect with each other across vast distances. The experiments need to be done more rigorously and with you know double blind experimentation protocols. But if you just listen to the tapes, it's overwhelmingly obvious to a person who's not dogmatic that there's something going on. Yeah. And that's not explained by modern scientific paradigm. Yeah. That's that's correct. Um um now

you know you mentioned earlier uh how Putoff's uh work on instantaneous communications and and so so you know Hal is searching for a physics explanation for for telepathy um and probably leading into remote viewing and and so forth. Um so what what we have is the is the fact of uh telepathy happening between human beings and non-human

extraterrestrials. We seem to have communication among just humans uh among autistic uh non-speaking uh people. Um and then you have a physics explanation that uh that Hal PutF and others are working on which involve uh so-called highly technical terms scalar and vector okay. So, the only thing that's kind of missing here is like can the human brain

mimic what Hal is talking about? And so, is the human brain wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it uh that it can uh function in these uh quantum mechanical ways. And in terms of uh of modern um extended um and if and there are some hints at least out there in the medical profession at least as a layman I I

think I'm seeing that that suggests that uh that this is possibly the case. Yeah. Well, I mean you have it's converging on an answer. We don't have an answer but it's like okay so you have Roger Penrose who's a very wellrespected physicist you know you know worked on black holes and you know collaborated with Stephen Hawking Nobel Prize winner and he you know was sort of laughed out of the room because you can't talk about consciousness in those circles but he has this very interesting theory called orchestrated

objective reduction which you know involves a quantum biological process where we collapse Schroinger's wave function and you could say you could dismiss that out hand, you know, whatever. But we know that there are other quantum biological processes you can now prove. I mentioned the thing of birds navigating via the magneettosphere of the earth with electron spin and the specific aven cryptochrome protein. But there are other examples. There's uh you know enzyme creation, there's quantum tunneling uh around DNA and so and uh uh

I believe photosynthesis we now think is involves quantum biological processes. So the idea that the you know the body which is warm, wet and noisy is not um you know can't allow for quantum coherence is is going out the window. So then you have to open up this idea of maybe the Penrose model is right. And then at the same time you have this idea that the government studied non-local consciousness modalities for decades and this idea the idea that you know where does thought even come from? It's clearly not being locally produced. When you're daydreaming you're not

constructing your thoughts actively. it seems like you're receiving them from elsewhere. And then you have all the remote viewing data that Jessica UTS, who is the president of the American Statistical Society, reviewed for the CIA saying that, you know, this is extremely replicable, like well beyond like other scientific fields as far as the P values, you know, the probabilities that you you'd get hits on these sort of remote viewing targets. And so that seems like a you know consciousness is this sort of really non-local thing which again comports

with quantum entanglement and the quantum stuff. Um so I don't think it's so crazy to say that you have phenomenologically all this evidence with remote viewing and the telepathy tapes even though you know in the telepathy tapes you know in certain it's anecdotal but I think it's I think it's pretty overwhelming. And then in the in the CIA case, it's actually statistically relevant with Jessica UT who's a total good faith actor and you know she seems very very earnest. Um and then and then meanwhile you have this kind of burgeoning field of quantum biology. And so I think we'll probably

discover something around that somewhat soon. And I've spoken to Hal Putoff about this. Um, you know, do do we have extended electronamical models that might, you know, um, line up with consciousness? And he pointed me towards uh the work of Cleave Baxter who, uh, you know, it talks about like plant communication and um, and so yeah, I I think he's, you know, interested in in this as well. Is there sort of some sort of physicalist model of where we can eventually decode carrier you know a

carrier of thought itself because I mean another example there's there anecdotal examples of you have like Lucille Ball who uh had a filling in her tooth. This is in the telepathy tapes and she's driving on some overpass and she starts to hear the radio in her head and this is a well-known this is scientifically proven as well. called bone induction where you have you you have metal in the mouth could you know pick up RF signals and you can you know all of a sudden hear things and I think Andre Puridge had a similar

case where it was like somebody working in a you know a metal mill or whatever uh you know metallic or got in his teeth and you know all of a sudden he was he was being you know he's transmitting signals from elsewhere so I think there's so much to discover you know in in in this area and it's probably not traditional radio frequency because if you can if if the consciousness is happening you know non-locally if you are in a Faraday chamber you shouldn't be able to think given that right because that's cutting

out all RF signals um so like yeah presumably it's something else and maybe it is this extended electronamical model that you know might explain thought who knows I mean we're it's super the ability to project thought you know to transmit MIT them uh out of your own head and into somebody else's head, you know, and for them to be able to perceive it, receive and perceive it uh is um you know, I mean something something uh there has to be a physics

explanation uh for how um non-human intelligence um uh communicates with the humans that they encounter uh telepathically. Um I mean it I believe it happens and there has to be a way to figure out how um how that happens. Yeah. But do you have any hope for you know if this is so beneficial to humanity which I think both of us think it is if we let this stuff out you know

uh do do you have any hope for the president uh disclosing this and and why hasn't you know Trump already disclosed this? Because you have Donald Trump Jr. interviewing Ross Colthart on the eve of his breaking of the Jake Barber story. Um, so like what you know clearly like there's there's connectivity of there's people in the Trump admin who are very aware of this issue. I think Tim Waltz has you know spoken about David Grush publicly and his revelations and like is you know is very interested and I think

Tulsi is very interested. She said, you know, she wants UAP transparency, you know, and and I've I've had a brief conversation with her uh around this topic as well. She seems very she seems to know it's real and that she, you know, she wants to like put this stuff out, but but it also feels like with a lot of these people, they have so many other priorities. And so, yeah, what do you think happens? Uh I I I can't even hazard a guess uh um uh Jesse because I I don't have any connections uh into

those circles and uh I don't know what uh what's being said um [snorts] you know uh privately. I don't have I don't have any any idea. So I'm uh I'm certainly hopeful uh but um but I I have no insight. I'm sorry to say. No, it's okay. Well, any other things you want to touch on or I am interested in um in uh in talking about what what the uh the mindset might have been for

the atomic energy commission and the intelligence community and the defense Can I can I tee you off and ask a quick question on that? Okay. So, why do you think this was made secret in the first place? It's just, you know, it should be kind of ontological truth, right? It should be basic kind of, you know, an understanding of, you know, whether we're alone in the universe should not be classified, right? Yeah, that's uh that's that's a really good point. Uh but you know what what I've thought about that to the extent I've thought about it uh Jesse is um is

I think like right after the war the leadership in the country thinking back on the events of the previous couple of decades and probably felt that the that we were just exhausted. I mean, we'd been through two world wars, uh, this longlasting depression. We were entering into, uh, we were already into a cold war with a with a communist um,

uh, regime in uh, in in in Russia. Um and um and here we were, you know, uh you know, having to deal with the reality of uh of UFOs and extraterrestrial life and the like. And I can just so imagine the view uh that uh that this would be another cataclysmic shock to to the to society

and the world order and the world's religions. Uh we were barely uh you know a decade removed from Orson Wells uh War of the Worlds uh um uh event. I think that was in 1938. And and that literally touched off mass hysteria. It was this reading of HG Wells's War of the Worlds by Orson Wells, famous aura director. And people went nuts until they realized it was not real. Well, that's right. But it but it was uh

it was a lesson, right? that uh that the leadership of the country could could take and and uh and say uh you know uh this can't be a good idea to let to let people know about this. Um and um I guess I can also imagine uh that um uh that you know we wanted to figure out we wanted to figure out what it was all about before we would even ever consider

dealing with with hot and then who was the was it Remy was the guy from General Remy was from Fort Worth. Yeah, Fort Worth. And he was like, "Guys, shut up. You know, don't put this out." Well, uh, and and you know, it didn't take long, like word went out, uh, that they had made this announcement back to Washington, and the order to shut the hell up and, uh, bottle this up came came pretty quick, you know. Uh, I've always been impressed by that. it

uh it it sort of belies the the uh the the lethargy of uh of the bureaucracy, you know, um almost as if uh uh there had been you know, longterm awareness and a decision already made in Washington like this is bad news and so wherever it pops up, uh you got to you got to react to it pretty quickly. And Roswell was the site of the only American nuclear stockpile at the time.

That's right. And and bomber force. And bomber force under Yeah. 509th bomber atomic bomber squad. Yeah, that that's right. Um so uh so I certainly think that uh that that you know that there that there was uh a reason for this immediate reaction. But Jesse, um, on a sustained basis, you know, the, uh, the executive branch, if if if people like us are correct, that that they really have known uh, and

studied carefully this to the best of their ability uh, within bureaucratic constraints and budget constraints and so on that they have accumulated uh, a lot of information about this uh, over the decades. Um and if as some believe you know if you look at well if you just look at alleged UAP performance uh there's some mighty interesting technology involved there and if the government knows about that

but has chosen to keep it from being applied to solve you know the pressing needs of the American people and indeed society the world over, you know, for um travel, aerospace travel, for energy, um and who knows what else. um you know why would why would the government have decided and and and frankly this is one of the criticisms of of this view

by skeptics is look if the military could fly you know craft around like UFOs do you think they would have squirreled it away where so so what if they have like 12 of them or something we have thousands of F-35s and F-15s and F-16s why wouldn't we have applied this techn technology to our entire military force. You know, why are we still um powering uh armored vehicles with uh with with uh uh diesel

fuel and gasoline if we had the ability to take electrical power right from the physical vacuum? Why why haven't we used the hydrogen bomb yet, you know? Um well you know yeah I mean I think the hydrogen bomb predated our mastery any mastery of this technology but but sure like yeah I'm just saying like we have all we have all sorts of ace in the hole that we haven't allowed to be shown to the public for for various well you know but but the public knows about it and we've applied it to our

forces in a in a in a in an observable informed way like we we everybody knows we've invested in in uh hundreds of ICBMs and and and and seabbased ballistic missiles and so Um so why would you limit this technologies reach if we actually had analyzed it and and reverse engineered any of it? And and that's a it's a legitimate and and difficult question to answer. Um I

don't have an answer but my own speculation is that I can think of a reason why the government might have take might take that position and and the answer would be Allah our previous discussions about Nicola Tesla TT Brown and lots of others is what if the government discovered that it's not that hard after all to to access the physical vacuum and extract energy from it. And what if

Yeah, that energy is extremely potent and can be weaponized. And and what if it's not that hard to do that and in fact doesn't even require mammoth engineering enterprises like our nuclear establishment uh requires. Um so that you know a Kim Jong-un could be doing this in some warehouse someplace, right? That'd be disastrous. And and I would and if that were the case, I would hope that there's some sort of strategy,

strategic thinking around how to let some of this stuff partially out or in a blackboxed way or in a way that, you know, the western forces control or whatever. And uh I would fully comply with that cuz I don't want, you know, Kim Jong-un to to have a beam weapon vaporizing. might be where I deviate with UFO circles is like I don't want dictators that want would literally if they had the capabilities to destroy the US by hitting a button they would and so yeah

or use that as or some doomsday cult or something yeah or you trade soul for San Francisco with that you know if you're talking about the Kim Jong-un thing so yeah I uh or yeah some doomsday cult or you know accelerationist want you want to bring bring about you know some esqueological you know apotheiois I don't know. Um, so so yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm with that. Um, so anyway, I mean, this is this is one possible uh possible explanation that that I've thought of where I could reconcile with observable facts. Um, of

course, uh, once again, I want to stress because, uh, I'm sure my friends, uh, Hal Putoff and Eric Davis and others, uh, uh, whoever whoever watch this will, uh, will be upset with me for even suggesting this because because they don't think that it's, uh, or they say they don't think that this is possible. Um uh but uh what if it is, you know, um then the the government uh the government but but but you know my

problem with this Jesse is that even if they've got good reasons for doing what they did, in other words, if their if their intentions were noble. Um I just don't see that you can lock the United States Congress. I mean, look, I came from Congress. I'm a career there. I'm an institutionalist. Uh Congress under our mode of government has to be involved in managing this, in oversight of this, in resourcing it, and

balancing uh interests and uh concerns. Uh so you know look uh you know you don't have to reveal all this publicly but you sure have to at least bring Congress in as a partner. And that's been my that's been my objective in this whole in this whole thing. I mean my primary objective is to get this under uh a proper sort of constitutional framework. Um,

so, um, cool. That's how I would answer your question. Yeah. Well, Kirk McConnell, it's an honor to have you on. I really appreciate your time. This is a blast and uh, yeah, would love to would love to have you back at some point and uh, yeah, thank you for everything you're doing and I hope you are uh, enjoying your time out of government. Well, thank you very much. I I do miss it, but uh, but I also don't miss it if you know what I mean. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. All right, man. Thanks so much. Thank It's a real honor to Oh, it's an honor to have on your show.

I'm underqualified to interview you. So, thank you. Oh, [laughter] What is up, Alchemist? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never-beforeseen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Shehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein, then please join our [ __ ] community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WOB. I also hosted a discussion between

the infamous Jack Sarati and former American Alchemist Science Bob Maguire. Head over to wop.com/jesse. Michaels with no a to become a member