"I Located A UFO Base In Arizona!" -Ross Coulthart

first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me it's all about consciousness. You probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody else alive. You are saying to the human race, we are not alone. We're definitely not alone. Anyway, he chuckled. And I remember he just went something "Yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down pretty quickly." Whoa, it's a

they think they're going to get away with it. Uh-huh. And you know what? What? They probably will. have just so much gratitude to express. First of all, uh we've been waiting to do this for a very long time. I'm grateful you're in the US. you. I you haven't. Um but I'm also I just want to express my gratitude cuz we were talking before when the you know, cameras weren't rolling. I feel like I am aerodynamically drafting behind you.

I feel like you uh have done so much legwork in getting all these amazing scoops and uh you know, often I'll do you know, a a follow-up interview where you know, I have a lot of fun, but it's really I just have so much I I owe you a debt and I think humanity owes you a debt as well and so I'm I'm grateful for you uh sitting down. mutual admiration society, Jesse, because I often say to my family, "How the hell does he do it?" Everywhere I see I mean you Have you

match with a few changes if somebody's cosmetically altered it. It's definitely remarkable just the fact pattern. So, as you know, very well, whenever you take a stance, a hard stance in this world, you get a ton of flak. So, I'll just give you my fact pattern of what I've experienced, and then people can sort of decide for themselves. So, Jaime Maussan was given this thing. It was taken in Buga, Colombia. That's why it's called the Buga Sphere. Um it was given by a guy So, this video was taken by this guy who

I guess he like does like uh mining and and metal detection underground. And it's a it's a very long It's a multi-minute long video of this thing flying in the air. You've seen the video. And then he picks it up in the forest, and there is a little gap in the video, so that does beget a question of like, you know, provenance and why is there a gap in the video. And then he has it for a while in his possession. He ends up giving it to Jaime Maussan. And there are symbols around the top. Uh apparently, it's an aluminum alloy

freaked out. Because it was like that that these were the symbols that they had both seen. Mario inside the craft. to give you something cuz I'm not sure. And again, again, I am not avowing that this is my Neither of us are endorsing the Buga Sphere. We are just These are facts that we are looking at. endorsing nor debunking. That's right. Um but I did what I'm increasingly doing these days. I took a photograph of the sphere, and I uploaded it to AI. And I asked AI, in this case, I think it was Grok. Mhm. And I said, "Can you please decipher these symbols for me?"

And it came back very quickly and said, "The circuit." And that I have to admit made me think it was a hoax. Now, I'm not saying it's a hoax. Okay? But what I am saying is that came back when I put it through AI. But AI is often wrong. But what I love about AI is that it's ability to draw on symbology and numerology and all of these ideas. And it came back with this one phrase, "The circuit." Well, if you look at the top, it looks like a little semiconductor or

paying to have that sphere properly investigated. There's a scoop for you. That is going to run it on my show. Yeah, so Jim Marrs is a former rock promoter who worked with Willie Nelson. And he has a house in Texas. we went to his home and saw this sphere Apparently move under its own power. And I mean, we were sitting with Jim for hours talking.

And he was in a home where the floor had just been fixed, so it's perfectly level and we verified that with a level. And the ball is sitting stationary on the floor. And then all of a sudden it starts moving and there's a bar which has a pole coming down onto the floor. It goes up to the bar, and from memory it might have even circled the pole and then come back again part of the way. And there was no movement. We were all just

sitting in a chair talking and then Jim chuckles and goes like that. And it moves. Yeah. Was there something that came up in the conversation that was it aligned with anything synchronous? No, and so when I ran that story Uh-huh. on Channel 7 Australia they, as usual, as TV networks are want to do, beat the living daylights out of it, which is a journalistic term for flogging the story until it bleeds. it um

you know, there were all the promos were fancy, and it made it look like we were saying for sure that it was an anomalous object. We truly don't know for sure, and the great frustration for me for the past few years since I did that story in every time I went to Jim and asked him, "Could we take it to go and get it tested?" There was a lot of and it made me suspicious. But then he agreed to go and let it get

But the problem was when I was trying to find an X-ray place that does industrial The first thing they want to know is, "Well, what's inside it?" And I'm going, "Well, that's why we want to X-ray it." and I I was expressing this dilemma only very recently on a show somewhere. And this gentleman rang me from Chicago and said that he would X-ray it in his industrial X-ray machine. And he had some other type of machine

can't remember what it was. Might have been a CT. I'm not sure. Yeah. And he would run it through that as And it was for free. And I went to Jim and I said to Jim, "Jim, I finally found a place that can test the ball for you, the sphere for you." Cuz one of the things I get most a lot of the inquiries about from our audience is, "What happened to the sphere, you know? Why haven't you told us the story about the And I was finally about to announce that we've got somebody who will allow us to do the testing on the sphere cuz Jim won't let us to cut into it for obvious

And um he told me, "I'm sorry, Ross. Brandon Fugal's agreed to fly out in his private jet to Utah where he's going to have it tested in the lab." And look, frankly, I'm really happy if that's going to be the case for Patrick, who I know, and um and for Jim, who's a beautiful guy, uh to finally get an answer. And Brandon, I've spoken to Brandon about it and I've encouraged him to to do it. And so, hopefully, it's all going to happen. fingers crossed. Yeah, let's hope.

That's amazing. And I think Patrick, because you were talking about the chip. And so, where my mind might go with that, again, I don't know if it's real, is uh that this is some sort of like global control system or something. Well, Patrick's theory is that these spheres are part of a global defense system by some alien civilization to keep the bad guys out of Earth. Right. I quite like Patrick. He's a very clever man. He has an eclectic intelligence and he's fun.

Uh I honestly don't know how he could know that. Right. Yeah, and so, I mean, a lot of it is speculation and he's got type one spheres and type two spheres and often there'll be a photograph of a plane and you do you see these spheres around planes in UAP events. So, there's a big let's call it object rather than a craft. There's a big object that's clearly anomalous, sometimes beside an aircraft, and then as you look really closely, you'll see these dots that are

these metallic spheres. And when I did that story, I did that in 2021 for Australian TV, it just went nuts. It's been seen that particular story, if you add the two iterations of the story cuz we we had to take one down because of copyright issues with music. Um it's been seen over 43 million times. And so I was getting phone calls, messages, emails from people all over the world, including I remember a beautiful guy in Africa

who who told me that they were seeing these spheres. And what I what I can report is whatever they are, I do think I can say they're real. They're a real phenomenon. Whatever they they're metal spheres with no visible means of Dozens of people have told me that they've seen them flying or moving under their own locomotive power. There's no visible way in which they're

I don't honestly know what to conclude about them because I mean, I expressed the enigma by telling the story. But like so much of this whole story, I don't know about you, but I often feel like I've got my eyes closed and I'm kind of feeling in the dark and trying to get an idea about what it is. And then as soon as I've got the texture and the feel of what's been in front of me I realize there's a whole other room over here of stuff that I've never gotten with my brain around. And it it's

it it's it's mind-bogglingly complex, whatever it is. This episode is brought to you by my favorite new product, Masa Chips. Here's a quick history lesson. Before the 1990s, all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow. Then the big food companies swapped this ingredient out for cheap, highly processed seed oils. Today, seed oils make up 20% of the average American's calories, and they're linked to all sorts of bad things like chronic inflammation and metabolic issues. Masa decided to rewind

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the channel out when you use that code, and this is a product I love and consume just about every day. Mhm. Part of what I want to do in this interview is so many people are used to seeing you in the context of breaking these bombshell I want to get to know the man behind Sure. that, cuz you you you are often the interviewer, and so how did you were, you know, exposing corruption and stuff with the surveillance state in Australia, right? How did you get into UFOs to begin with?

Doctor Who, and I I I loved the show called UFO that was on TV. It was a British series um about malevolent aliens invading Earth and there was this secret organization called Shadow that was defending Earth. But I'll be honest, I always saw that as fiction and I accepted it was fiction. I never believed it was true and even when in New Zealand, where I was living as a kid, I um there was a really big UFO incident in 1978 when I was 16 years old in a place

called Kaikoura on the east coast of the South Island of New Zealand and there was a cargo aircraft flying up that coastline in 1978 in the middle of the and the pilot and the co-pilot had these objects clearly in their view elliptical metallic disc-shaped objects come right up to the cockpit window glowing but clearly metallic and then go away again. And um what was interesting was the it was

another kind of Nimitz story because you had sensor systems. I found the guy in Wellington across the Cook Strait who was the radar operator on the night who'd seen these things on And as the two guys who were the journalists on the aircraft were describing the objects say going to the the radar operator John Cordy was seeing them go to the west. I have a strong target uh 12:00 to you at 20 miles. Uh I do we have a I also have

quite a good uh visual display at the It's showing lights. Hey Sabre, there's uh it looks like a collection of lights. So you had this contemporaneous real-time confirmation of solid objects moving or at least objects that registered on radar moving in the directions that these witnesses were saying that they were seeing these objects moving and they were seeing objects that were plasmatically glowing but at the same time clearly solid, structured in their

words, craft. from Wellington radar that got an object about a mile behind us and it's following us. Let's hope they're friendly. I see our echo uh the right in formation with you now uh could either be left or right, but your your target is double the size. And for each of those people, it was a moment. But what was really interesting for me as a journalist was

I bought as a teenage boy the official government explanation. And I was doing my exams. I was really focused on my studies. There'd been the Valentich story of a young boy called Frederick Valentich who had disappeared in his Cessna aircraft flying over Bass Strait in Australia just a few months before. And as somebody who was really already very interested in the media, I kind of bought into the idea that this is all a big media beat-up because there's a big problem in the

December-January period. It's the Christmas holiday period. The news is pretty boring, and so this was obviously a story that the media had leaped onto. And I just thought yeah, this is just a big media beat-up. What was interesting also was that the government had come out with an official explanation very, very quickly which said that these were squid boat lights. And in New Zealand, there are these big Japanese fishing fleets that go off the coast with these gigantic lights, and you often saw them as a kid, and they

were glowing on the horizon, and they looked spooky. And so the theory that was pushed by the the New Zealand Air Force was that these were squid boat lights, and the captain the co-pilot of one plane and the captain and the co-pilot of another plane, even though they were flying at 14,000 ft, they were mistaken, and those objects were below them, and it was some kind of refraction in the air. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It all gave a reasonable tinge of explanation that made everybody in New Zealand think, "Ah, that was just a [ __ ] story

during the Christmas season. It's all For me, though, it was interesting because much, much later, when I became a journalist, uh I was working for the New Zealand Herald newspaper, and I met Sir Robert Muldoon, who was the former New Zealand Prime Minister. And he used to do these convivial little chats at Christmas time uh a young reporter, me, had to drive up and interview him and talk to the former Prime Minister about whatever he wanted to talk about. And I decided, I don't know why, I knew he'd been the Prime

Minister at the time, I decided to ask him, "What about that Kaikoura UFO thing that happened when I was 16?" And by that time, I think I was about 19 or 20, I can't remember. Anyway, he chuckled. And I remember he just let slip something like, "Yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down pretty quickly." Whoa. And that cuz I love espionage stories, and I love, as a young New Zealander, I was always focused on books about espionage, and as you

referred to earlier, one of the biggest stories I did in my time in Australia was I revealed the existence exclusively of the Echelon communications surveillance system, which is what the Five Eyes operate to intercept communications. And for the first time ever, um I got from an intelligence service in Australia an official admission that there was a system called Echelon, and it was involved in communications surveillance and spying. And so, I was switched on to that issue all my

life. I've always been really interested in spies and espionage. And so, it twigged my interest that Sir Robert Muldoon was describing this admission that there'd been some kind of American intervention, but he wouldn't go any further. And then much, much later when I was writing my book, I discovered that there'd been this release of the New Zealand archives in about 2011. And it essentially revealed the detail of what went on inside the Air Force in New Zealand to try and fix this problem

as fast as possible. And it was quite clear these Air Force officers had been told, "Find a [ __ ] solution as fast as possible. We want this off the front page." And it was quite clear enormous amounts of pressure was being put on the Chief of Air Staff, the head of the Air Force, by the Prime Minister's office to make this one go away. And hence the squid boat explanation. And then when I was writing my book, I met Quentin Fogarty who'd been one of the reporters on the plane, who by complete chance his son Ben was one of

the chief cameraman at 60 Minutes, where I was working as a reporter. And so Ben said to me, "My dad was the guy who was on that plane that night." And so I got to meet his father. Another weird serendipity. And another one of the reporters was a political correspondent called Dennis Grant of great renown later on in And Dennis confirmed all the story and he introduced me to Bruce Maccabee who was the atmospheric physicist who sadly recently

And all of a sudden I realized that the story that I'd bought as a young teenage that basically told me this was was actually completely untrue. And there'd been a really elaborate And that fascinated me. And it was one of the cuz I actually started out writing my book in about 2018 when I left 60 Minutes. I thought I wanted to do a book debunking UFOs. I was arrogant and I had

this assumption that all UFOs were nonsense. And it was only a matter of time. I'd read Nick Cook's um Hunt for Zero Point, and you know, he'd implied very strongly that there was some sort of secret US aerospace program. We obviously have all heard all the rumors about the Aurora with all the all the TR-3B, and I just assumed it was some kind of black world American technology, and that a bit of dutiful digging would no doubt reveal this, and somehow, for some inescapable reason, I would discover it and make my name by

revealing that the whole UFO story was complete nonsense. But, the more I got into the story, because of that Kaikoura story, everywhere I went, everybody was telling "This is real." And so, I had sources from the original Echelon investigation I'd done, and from people I'd met in Afghanistan and Iraq when I covered the who were in senior levels in intelligence and um defense. And they facilitated introductions for me to people who

privately, when we sit over a table in a said, "Ross, this is real." Yeah. And that only really happened for me more recently, you know, while I was writing my book. And probably the biggest breakthrough moment for me, where I went, "Holy heck, this is real." is when the the um the technique I'd to try and investigate this was because

of my knowledge of Echelon. And how easy it is to intercept digital I decided I wouldn't approach anybody that I thought might know something about this other than by using analog communication techniques. I wouldn't even use phones, because of course, there's a metadata, and we knew about that because of the um Snowden revelations that there was this metadata trail that essentially reveals that you can be tracked. And And they might not know the contents of the phone conversation, but they can certainly

track a lot about your habits and your movements and who you're talking to by looking at the metadata. And so, I wrote letters. I wrote I think about 160 170 letters at last count. And a lot of it involved doing things Uh I'm a lawyer by training. And so, as a young trainee lawyer, I'd learned that a lot of stinky stuff happens in the discovery process in legal

with documents that are maybe procured but not necessarily tended in a court case. And um they're often tangential to what you're trying to discover to prove the case that you're mounting, but there's some really juicy stuff in there. And so, I don't want to go into too much detail, but there were some very helpful lawyers. Mhm. And so, I built up a name base of people that I thought might be interesting who'd been involved in litigation at Area 51. And in a layering and iterative process

of doing what I do, which is basic investigative journalism where you you build up a chronology and you think who might know something about advanced aerospace or who might have been working in a security role or a support role at that time in this area that might know You build up a name base. And so, I wrote letters to people. And one of the glorious things about America is how ridiculously open every database is. And I could procure the home addresses of everybody that I

wanted to write to, including some of the most important scientists in America. Wow. And what shocked me was one of the letters I wrote was to a guy called Nat And um he was the former head of science technology development for the US Navy. Mhm. And I'd written to him and it was an act of brazen cheek to be perfectly honest. I honestly did not expect that somebody like him would respond. What did Kobitz say?

He rang me and I didn't talk UFOs with him for 3 And I realized sadly one of the reasons he wanted to talk to me was because he was a lonely elderly man who God bless him was dying slowly of cancer. And he was in his daughter's home and she was nursing him and he was bored. And I was interested in talking to him and he was talking to me about developing early drone technology and and how one of their drones had crashed

in George Bush the president's ranch because the Secret Service had um frequency blockers. Mhm. And you know, they'd spent millions of dollars on building this drone and the first time they flew it because they flew into the Secret Service air envelope, it crashed he went, "There went a few million bucks, you know." And uh and he had this wonderful Jewish Brooklyn sense of humor and I became very friendly with him and I loved I used to really enjoy talking to him. There were things like he'd been involved in developing things on the the

lunar lander and I knew somebody who'd worked on the lunar lander and told me something about the lunar lander and because Nat knew about that, we bounced off that and it just got more and more interesting and then one day I rang him and he was getting really ill. And I could hear a a kind of a um a change in his voice and I I felt really sad because it was obvious he was ill he went, "Why don't you ask me the question?" No way. He was the guy who suggested I ask it.

Oh, wow. He kind of knew you were Oh, yeah. He knew He knew why I was there. Yeah, I'd made no secret that I was writing a book about UFOs. You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slower recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called Qualia Senolytic,

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a l i f e dot com slash jesse j e s s e for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. Why don't you ask me the And I was nervous. I was actually slightly nervous. And I've never released it, but I actually got a recording of this Oh my And he had authorized me to record it. Of course. Um and I went I've been agonizing about how to ask you

this question. And he went third time Why don't you just ask me the question? And so I went Have you ever been read in to any kind of program involving unidentified aerial phenomena, alien And before I finished answering the question, he went, "Yes." Wow. And he obviously made a decision to answer the question.

I actually didn't hear him the first time he said it. Uh-huh. I was expecting him to go, "No, I don't know anything." Cuz everybody was saying, "No, I don't know anything about what you're talking about." And you know, well, I actually know that wasn't true. I'd already had people confirm the retrieval program. there was a kind of a beat. One, two. And then I went out of respect to Nat and Nat and his family, I I'm not going to go into a lot

of detail of the remaining parts of the conversation because what he then did for me was incredible. He facilitated introductions Mhm. to people. And that was my big break through. Wow. And um Will that conversation ever come out? I I think I'd want his family's okay about it. Sure. I do you know, cuz it's an emotional thing I think for a family to hear a father's voice after he's been passed for so long. Yeah. But um

he was a beautiful guy and and it was an act of courage on his part. And and I remember that of the conversations I had with him was, do you think there's any good reason? Cuz this is the thing I wrestle with, as I know you do as well. What's the dirty secret? What why? Why can't we know this? You know, if the US has recovered technology, why can't we know? And he hadn't been told that. And and he had that rigid doctrinaire thing about how he wasn't read into that part of it. And

that was a compartmentalized issue. He wasn't entitled to know about. What he told me was that he'd been told that the United States had recovered multiple craft. Wow. Multiple craft. And he implied very strongly that Roswell and another case I'm interested in, Aztec and Kingman, were all real And that really rocked my worldview. And but what what happened was he also told me that he I cuz oh, there was another time I asked him. I said, oh,

have you ever actually seen evidence of alien technology? And he went, no. And kind of I was kind of disappointed cuz he'd implied that he had. Yeah. And then he gave me this cheeky look. And cuz we were talking on Zoom. And um and I said, have you ever been given anomalous technology defied prosaic explanation?

And he went, like he had the first time, yes. Uh wow. And then he told me this amazing story about how he was an expert in a particular type of welding called electron beam welding. Okay. And apparently they his company had done the the nose wheel for the C-47, one of the big cargo planes they used by the US military, and they need really tough welds. And this is one of the strongest welds you can do of metals. And he was like the world expert with his company in that type of

And it's an indistinguishable bead. Unlike I don't know if you've ever welded, but it's it welds leave a big This type of welding didn't. And so he was contacted on his own admission by Wright-Patterson Air Force And I think it was even whatever the technology division is known as now. I think it might be the foreign technology exploitation Yeah, the yeah. And he um he was flying to Wright-Patt. Yeah. And he did go underground. I remember I giggled and I said, "Did you

go underground?" He went, "Oh, yeah." "Oh, yeah." It was obviously a long way Mhm. And he was taken into a room under heavy guard Mhm. and shown what he described to me as the piece of a bulkhead. And he said, "It looked like it should have been incredibly heavy, but it was almost light or almost lightweight, you know, like a feather." Yeah. And he "What blew me away was and he I I don't know enough about metal metallurgy to

know this, but he said there were two types of metal and he wouldn't tell me what types of metal they were that had been bonded. And he asked to look at it I think under an electron scanning microscope. And the scientist in him couldn't resist giving that sense of awe about what he saw that he said it was bonded at the atomic level. Whoa. Whoever had built this Mhm. had layered it atom by

atom. And he said, "I I know for a fact that's not a technology certainly that I'm aware of and I would have thought that I would have known." Yeah, I think like semiconductors you can do little amounts of atomic layer deposition, but you can't fabricate at scale materials that are atomically, you know, where you're deliberately placing atoms. You just can't do that. That's amazing. So, I think for me, the the big aha moment where I stopped being the skeptic and went Oh, [ __ ] This is real. I can't

believe this. And I remember I actually spent days just going for walks cuz I was writing my book and it had it had actually altered I had a confirmational bias. Yeah. I was writing a book to debunk all this nonsense. And And this guy is telling me it's true. Is this in plain sight, by the way, that you were writing at the And the great thing about it was um I was doing a lot of traveling for 60 Minutes and Channel 7, two big networks in Australia, and I was often in

And as part of cost-cutting, they'd often leave you in a hotel for a few days while you shared the crew with another reporter. And so, you'd have down time when really all you wanted to do was be with your And you're sitting in a hotel in Washington or New York, and it sounds like fun, I know. And once you've tried on the fluffy dressing gown and used the bath salts once, you're just a bit And so, I would um I'd research things. And I was going to the National Archives and reading a lot of the old archives on

he came out. And with Jake Barmer, I believe you knew him for like a couple of years before he came out. how long I knew either man, but basically, it's just to protect them. Basically, yeah, I learned about David Grusch from people in the program. I just think that's important for the audience to hear cuz, you know, they think it's some like choreographed thing or whatever. people always got this idea that all that happens is these people come to you and you interview them and it's a really lazy job. Yeah. And they have no idea. Honestly, I

I used to have a full head of hair and the the the job of It's a bit like you. I really admire the way you do your stuff cuz you actually know a lot of science and a lot of physics. And you you you you do. And I I love the way you demonstrate that knowledge in the shows that you do. Thank you. Whereas I honestly am not a scientist. But what I do is I'm really good and I learned this at law school Mhm. at absorbing huge amounts of information, Yeah. complex information, and analyzing it,

and understanding it, and and making sure I understand it. Mhm. Cuz at law school we had the Socratic method where you were tested orally about your understanding of something. And you were put on the spot by the lecturer and questioned in front of 300 other students. And if you didn't know your stuff, you were humiliated and vilified and I was never going to let that happen. And I was humiliated and vilified on constant occasions. And um So you're like Pavlovian conditioned in a great way. it's terror terror training, yeah. That's right. And um

and so I learned subjects so that I could hold conversations with people and I'd read Scientific American articles try and understand them and I for the life of me couldn't and I I'd get friendly physicists or um neuroscientists to explain things to me. And it's by demonstrating a knowledge or an understanding or just enough to be able to have a conversation with that increases the flow. And so

sometimes I'd come out of a conversation and I'd go I think I've got what they're talking And there's a lot of ideas that people were discussing with me that frankly, now that I'm into consciousness and psionics and stuff like that, I'm now only now beginning to understand and it's um it's 7 years since I had those It's it's wild how much your kind of aperture opens up getting I mean I'm curious as to like you feel now because you've broken all these

You can't really argue with the substance of a lot of the stories. You can't argue with the people's backgrounds, you know, their credentials. Like you you can't really do that. And so I imagine you feel like you're on this like remote island and then like you have, you know, I feel this at least. You have like mainstream media or news and they just it's like they can't even comprehend like where you are. It's funny. I'm so glad you've led me into this path because I'm going to give you my rant. I think there will come a time

in the not too distant future where there will be a bloody reckoning with the failure of the mainstream media in the main to deal with the greatest disinformation operation in human history. It has been the most effective psyop ever run. But you you also realize when talking to a lot of these people the psyop maybe it's at the top like okay, I'll tell give you a crazy story.

A friend of mine was planning an op-ed with a former cabinet member in the US. The cabinet member wanted to know where they were they were expressing frustration about their lack of access UFO stuff. I decided to help him out cuz he was having trouble with the Wall Street Journal getting this published, which is just prima facie crazy if you take that claim at face value. And even just the fact that the cabinet member is claiming Well, you look I mean, what made the New York Times publish it in 2017? The mere

fact that the Pentagon was looking at UFOs was a story. It's It's the There you go. Which is That is a story, right? And so, um and then you get into all these questions of like, why did the New York Times reject the Grusch story? It's crazy. But, in this case, I'm talking to this journalist at the The Wall Street Journal trying to help my friend out. And she's actually somewhat open-minded, but like she just you know, it's a one of these things where it's like it seems so beyond the pale, and if you don't understand the the deeper research and you haven't gone down the rabbit

it's kind of like in one ear out the other, and she then says, "I don't know. We have this um we have this like consultant that we talked to about UFOs here, uh and his name is David Spergel." And you know where I'm going with this. And David Spergel tells me that it's all uh uh space trash, uh temperature inversions, and light reflections. And in my head I'm thinking, "That's exactly what Don Menzel would say in the '50s to throw people off the trail." And David Spergel not only did the NASA UAP review

panel in 2023, but he happens to run the Simons Foundation, you know, uh uh um and uh you know, as a scientific advisor, and is very embedded in like, you know, DOE research. That's where if you both if you know what we both know, that's where the bodies are buried. Absolutely. No, and it's it's funny. I One of the things in my line of work is we have a vulgar expression, which is always assume a [ __ ] up before a conspiracy. Like, conspiracies happen so And invariably, it's the it's the

screw-ups that that are the explanation rather than active conspiracy. In this case, I have been led reluctantly to the conclusion this is a conspiracy. Mhm. That there really is a group, a cabal, a leadership cabal that is actively conniving to deceive the public. Why do Why do you think that it going back to your earlier question of like, "What's the big deal?" Why do you think they hide it? I think they've convinced themselves cuz

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their products on the job risk-free. Just go to bruntworkwear.com and use code Jessie for $10 off. Again, that's bruntworkwear.com code Jessie. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. So somebody rang me out of the blue from Lockheed Martin. I won't say who they are and convey who they are with They were They were an executive, a very senior executive. And we were playing a delicate dance. They'd heard me say something,

and they were thanking me for not putting them in it and for more accurately reflecting the true state of events about something. And essentially it was an implicit acknowledgement by that Lockheed Martin executive that they are holding alien technology. And I just blurted it out. I said, "Look, can I ask you a question?" I said, "I promise you I'm not recording Why not just come out and say it?" And he said, "It's not us." He said, "It's the agency." Interesting. He said, "We want to do it." And then

that's how I found out about the attempt by Bigelow Aerospace to this [ __ ] story about metamaterials that God bless them, Leslie and Ralph put in the New York Times story. That was always nonsense. It wasn't metamaterials, it was a spacecraft. Right. Lockheed Martin was going to pass on control of an alien spacecraft to Bigelow Aerospace. That's the real story. Mhm. And you hear rumors that maybe it was the Kingman craft in '53.

Australia has its own fascinating history that I remember asking you about at the time. You have this guy named Harry Turner. Oh, I love Harry Turner. Tell us about Harry Turner. Well, good friend of mine, Bill Chalker, who's probably Australia's preeminent UAP researcher, he got to know Harry really well while Harry was alive. And Harry had been in his youth, as a young 20-something, a young physicist recently qualified from Melbourne University, and he expressed an interest in investigating UFOs to the then government. And they'd invited

him to come on board back in those more learned and insightful days when governments didn't try and hide evidence of UFOs, they invited this young physicist in to analyze UFO sightings cuz they were like the Americans trying to investigate them. And we were involved in a collaborative relationship with America providing information to Project Blue Book, handing over some of the more interesting Australian and New Zealand sightings cases. And there was a collaborative exchange of data and Which they still do secretly, but I won't get to that until later. But the

which at the time was known as the Joint Intelligence Organization, JIO. And he in 1972 wrote an extraordinary paper which lots of people keep on sending me going, "Wow, you must read this, Rossy. You wouldn't know about this." And I've blooming written chapters about it and talked about it for years. I find it fascinating. Harry wrote this definitive piece which basically was a report to the chief of JIO recommending that the Defense Department of Australia

set up a a UFO flying squad to investigate UFOs. And it was under serious active consideration. You can see that they weren't going to dismiss their chief scientist in a hurry. And he made a very authoritative argument that the Americans were essentially lying. Mhm. I have a strong suspicion because there was an enormous amount of liaison between physicists from America and physicists from Australia that there was a bit of cross-pollination that that

Harry had picked up stuff from American nuclear physicists who were aware of the early stages of the American legacy program. Well, you told me one time that like some of the gray beards you've spoken to in the Australian context talked about Robert Sarbacher coming and visiting them and Robert Sarbacher was definitely involved in liaison. And the most interesting thing is a lot of the Australian scientists, including Harry at one stage, went on um expeditions to the Pacific tests

because the Americans were trying to suck up to us for exploding bombs in our backyard by inviting us to be part of these tests and to be witnesses to them. And of course, they were polluting vast parts of Micronesia, spraying nuclear residue all over huge parts of the Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll. Huge numbers of communities and I've been out to the Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll briefly. And it is really quite amazing to think that they were exploding thermonuclear weapons in the open. But I think there was a lot of

cross-pollination there as well between Australian scientists and American It's pretty obvious Harry picked up a lot of information. And he wrote this absolutely candid analysis that the Americans clearly have some kind of retrieval program. He talked about Roswell. He talked about other retrievals. And he talked about how the Americans were clearly keeping this from And look, even in present day, this is strategically significant for us in

because I was involved in 1994, that's how old I am, uh in another story about spies, where I revealed that our intelligence service, the equivalent of the CIA, ASIS in Australia, did plausibly deniable favors for its allies, America and the UK, under the Five Eyes alliance, and there were amazing examples of plausibly plausibly deniable favors, where for example, Australian technical

operators, people who did bugging and were borrowed by the Brits, and MI6 would ring the Australians and say, "I say, old chap, can I borrow one of your tech ops lads?" And we we spoke to some of these people who were involved in these technical operations, and they told us how one of them had flown to Kuwait after the first Gulf War, and there was a huge amount of money going for contracts for the rebuilding of Kuwait, multi-billion dollar fat,

juicy, cost-plus contracts. And there were Australian construction companies involved in bidding wars with British companies to win these incredibly lucrative contracts. And so, the Brits secretly borrowed one of the technical operators buggers from to win a commercial advantage against Australia by bugging the Kuwaiti government offices on behalf of British And it blew me away. I verified this directly with some of the people involved in the operation,

that Australian were used this way as plausibly deniable operatives to do things that the British wanted to be entirely off the books, and if they'd been caught doing it, they would have it would have been my government, Australian government that was compromised, not the Brits. And we've been doing this kind of dirty work for years in the Five Eyes That story was like incendiary inside the Five Eyes Alliance. I

I know it upset a lot of people because it revealed the dirty little secret that the Kiwis and the Aussies and to a lesser extent the Canadians, they do the [ __ ] that the Brits and the Americans want to deny, including spying on their allies and bugging, including in some cases their allies. And I I met this group of people who'd been involved in these operations and that was when it was in the back of my mind when I was investigating the UFO stuff. when I later on started investigating

UAP retrieval operations, I knew people from special forces in including retired special forces people who'd worked in a particular era when I there were allegedly American retrieval operations involving UFOs. And they told me they'd been involved in retrieval operations. And the incredible thing was the Australian government was never briefed into these retrieval operations. They were paid cash US dollars just to keep their mouths shut. They were asked

to sign NDAs. And if you think about it, it's perfect. There were no US personnel involved in this operation. Right. Right, and it's not even Australian government didn't know and these guys walked away with fat checks and were kept very happy. This is why the fact of the Canadian involvement in retrievals and reverse engineering efforts has been kept so secret for so long because Canadian scientists have been and are involved in the legacy program.

And it's been kept secret from the Canadian people and um the only reason I'm aware of this stuff is because I know to look for it because of the stories I've done previously about things like Echelon and the plausibly deniable favors of secret services exchanging each other's men to do dirty tricks on each other. And that woke me up. I I I I knew to ask the question when I was questioning people in the And they'd say, "Oh yeah, I remember the

Aussies. I remember that guy. Yeah." And it's interesting because people wanted to talk about it because when I really pushed the issue to come back to the actual question you'd asked me, there was no good reason for this to be kept secret. And that blew me away and Harry Turner was the very early proponent of the fact that Australia was having the wool pulled over its eyes. I care about this issue because we're

currently negotiating. We've actually agreed to buy billion dollars worth of Virginia class nuclear attack submarines from your government in America because we supposedly need them as a strategic deterrent to deal with the Chinese. And what it's really all about is helping you guys fight the next war that they think they're going to have with China and maintaining American imperial hegemony. And there are a lot of people including in a former Australian Prime Minister

Paul Keating who've said publicly "Why are we so slavishly doing these things for the American alliance?" And I think there's a fundamental deceit that lies at the heart of this alliance and it's UAPs. And I've raised this at a very high level with our government and I've had people in our government say to me, "Ross, give me the evidence." Well, I'm going to link that document at the bottom of the uh at the in the description of this video because it's an amazing document. It talks about crash retrievals. It

confirms all these things that you have to kind of do deep research in the US to even know, which is Blue Book is fake. Blue Book was this total PR, you know, job to rationalize and explain away UFO sightings in the '50s and '60s. And then it goes into the fact that the real work around anti-gravity was going on and you had people like Oppenheimer That's right. Wheeler, Freeman Dyson, our top scientists all investigating this stuff. And it even lists the outposts of the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence studying

this. It talks about University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where we know that they were funding Thomas Townsend Brown and all sorts of other, you know, anti-gravity stuff. So, it's a it's a fascinating document. Speaking of the Marshall Islands, you before me actually broke this amazing story about Blue Gill Triple Prime. Oh, You with Jeffrey Cruikshank, who is a is a really amazing researcher and also comes from the nuclear world. And what got you onto that story? And now, I

you know, I want to talk about this with you because there's a little bit of controversy around Harold Agnew. Well, I I know and I've seen Jifs also published a rebuttal to Douglas Dean Johnson's hatchet job. I will link that, too. Yeah. Yeah, and and it's interesting cuz I haven't had a chance to read his rebuttal yet. I thought Douglas raised some legitimate points and I'm really interested to see the academic argument back from Jifs. I just haven't had a chance to read it yet. But yeah, I mean, how did I get into that? I was as a young man, I was

living in New Zealand when these tests were happening in some cases. And it was I can tell you a big issue that both the Yanks and the French, particularly the French at were exploding thermonuclear weapons in our backyard. I can remember um as a much younger journalist, I learned how to use the archives, and one of the early documents I found in the Australian archives were was evidence of secret testing of animals for radiation

beings, and more importantly, there was a discernible sigma move, if you like, showing a a statistical lift in cancer rates. Mhm. And this was never revealed. It was never talked about. And uh I I I just I I guess I grew up in that environment of deep skepticism. I was also um living in New Zealand around the time of the attack by the French on the Greenpeace boat in Auckland Harbor where um an environmental vessel that was

being used by Greenpeace to go and demonstrate against the Mururoa Atoll nuclear tests was blown up by the DGSE, French intelligence, in an intelligence operation slap-bang in the middle of Auckland Harbor. I mean, an incredible I mean, incredible French arrogance to think that they could do that and not get caught. And the stupid buggers, if they just hadn't tried to get the deposit back on their rental car, the French would have got away with one of the most awful crimes

of that time of recent history. But, um, you know, there was this sordid period where the great imperial powers of the world were looking for rental for real estate to explode their nuclear And both the US and France used the the South Pacific. And all the Pacific. And, um, it was a big political issue for me as a young man in New Zealand and much later in Australia as well. People were concerned about this. Why the hell are we allowing the Yanks to do this?

to high levels of radiation that in some cases killed people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's that's the history and that's the backdrop of, uh, you know, some of these interesting UFO stories where we do have this well-documented, you know, nuclear connection. You've interviewed Robert Hastings. I've interviewed Robert And, um, I do think it's interesting with this with this Malmstrom case, I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence to to say that this this

could have been done in a more gentle way. And I had the feeling a little bit too much when I was reading Harold's write-up. Not Harold's Douglas's write-up. This is Douglas Dean Johnson who who wrote an analysis of the claims of Harold Momgren that substantiated the the allegation that there was a UFO retrieved in the Triple Blue Girl Triple Prime Blue Girl tests in the Pacific.

it is odd that there's no paperwork that substantiates this. But is it possible, for example, that because of the role that Harold was playing, of course there was no paperwork? Yes, well, that is the history historyography of the time, right? We are talking to an audience that probably believes that the CIA had a hand in killing JFK. Then you ask no doubt. No doubt. Right, yeah, they're all sure. And then you ask, "Okay, so how did that get coordinated? Who called the shots?" And they're like, "Oh, it's it's Allen Dulles." Where was Allen

at the Institute of Defense Analysis, another federally federally funded research and development center. by my intelligence friends is used as a front. It is used as a front. He said in a 2024 interview in with Robert Laird, "I was the cover was that I was at the IDA, but in fact I was actually helping the Joint Chiefs in the Pentagon. I know he couldn't say this and and other people we both know can't reveal that the CIA as well. But do you think it's possible Harold was CIA? I do. And and I'm going to be

coming out with a more extensive video on this because I think it's important to say and I I actually wanted to say it as part of the story, but I wanted to respect and his sort of gentlemanly desire to sort of keep it shut at the end. But you Okay, here are a few a few fun facts. If you watch that interview I did with him, he says I was best friends with Tom Farmer. Happened to be the GC, the general counsel of the CIA. He says, you know, oh I was living at Nabokov's house and then Pippa says, yeah, there's all these CIA connections with Nabokov. He

the CIA, which he was part of the CIA, you wouldn't be able to query it. It wouldn't be in some FBI foyer request. in a file and release to the public. I mean, one of the things you can make a discretionary thing to do is to is to redact any evidence that somebody held a Q clearance. Absolutely. Because the fact of somebody holding a Q clearance is in and of itself potentially compromising a special access program. Yes, totally. And the Institute of Defense Analysis has been formally, even on paper, involved in every single missile defense program after Bluegill.

in the US Air Force was asked to photograph a fairly mundane launch of an ICBM test prototype missile from Edwards Air Force Base. In the course of the launch of that they didn't know it at the time, but when they reviewed the film footage there is a UFO circling the warhead and shooting at it with a laser beam. And of course, the usual suspects attacked him when he came public in Omni magazine in the '70s and basically said he'd seen this

and said that's just a load of nonsense. And to his great credit, I loved it one of the things I I think we often we tend, I certainly do in the media, you tend to assume the worst about all military and all intelligence. But the thing I've learned, especially from reporting from war zones, is there really is an honor in the American officer class. And these men and women inculcated with a decency Mhm. that is drilled into them. It's a character thing to be truthful.

And so, the commanding officer of Bob he'd been there when they'd watched this film. Mhm. And Bob asked him for support and he supported him Mhm. and verified that that's exactly what happened and that these two, I think CIA guys had basically told them to shut up about it. That's exactly right. And so, the the update here why Bob Jacobs is related at all to Malmstrom is people don't know this. I have footage of Bob Jacobs Bob Jacobs was stationed at Johnston Atoll but in 1963 so a year after Bluegill.

Bob you had such an interesting experience at Vandenberg in 64. I didn't realize you were actually stationed at the Marshall Islands before that and that you were involved in the Operation Fishbowl tests. Is that right? First of all I was officer in charge of optical instrumentation at Vandenberg the 13th security night photo squadron. As such we were charged with high-speed assortment photography of every single missile missile launched down the western test range. We had a detachment at Johnston Island in the Marshalls

and I was sent down there for a period of time in I believe it was November of not 62. The scuttlebutt at the time by every single person on that island when I got there this is engineers technicians my airman who'd been down there before me we were told that what happened is the the Soviets had launched a nuke into orbit up above us. And JFK told Khrushchev take that down.

Khrushchev said I won't do it. JFK said then we'll shoot it down. And Khrushchev said you don't have the technology to do that. We were down there according to the talk of the time to shoot down that missile in in that nuclear weapon in orbit. I was told that that that launch had happened and that the several things had happened because of it. First of all something had fallen down toward the island from that explosion in

the sky. The explosion lit up the entire South Pacific and and caused all sorts of alarm and reports of UFOs and so on. never told what it was. So that that's fascinating. I actually want to be clear the incident that I'm referring to is the Bluegill triple prime test which is at the end of operation Fishbowl in October of 1962. It's October 26th, so it's during the Cuban missile crisis. And so you're

saying that the kind of rumors at the time, you know, at the bar sort of thing were that Soviet warhead was actually knocked out of the sky as a part of that operation. Is that right? That's what I understand, yes. But here's what's interesting. We've never had nukes in space. No. I not to my knowledge. So unless there's some double story here where like, you know, we actually did take out a nuke in space which I don't think we did. It sounds like an ex post facto style

disinformation operation. That's right. But even then there were rumor widespread rumors of people on the ground that there was a UFO shoot down that had that's taken place. And the only alternative is is a nuke which obviously isn't true. So I find that very interesting along with if you there there were there was a FOIA request in the National Nuclear Security Administration and it was for everything, you know, all these UFO related acronyms. And this was around Starfish Prime. So it was a little earlier. And they basically say the responsive

records, you know, we we we can't give you any of the responsive records showing that there are responsive records with those names in them. And it says with the subject matter expert we have to consult them on this topic or whatever. So there are there's a lot in my opinion of circumstantial evidence to support that. mean my I keep on coming back to the fact that if there's a stinky dirty you don't write it down. Right. And if if Harold as he alleged was working for example in the um the White House undercover

he was read into the existence of the legacy UAP retrieval program by Richard Bissell. There you go. Yeah, so So who went on to become a deputy director of the CIA? That's right. He went on to become the number two at at the CIA. So fascinating. What you know, along the lines of what we were talking about earlier, you've probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody else alive. And from the outside Please don't say that too loudly. You know, it's funny when I came through

on the weekend to come here. Um I was actually nervous. Mhm. I've never been nervous coming into the US before. Mhm. But there's been a lot of stories in the Australian press about young people who were just turned away by border protection for no good reason and harassed and for no good reason. And there's been a change of culture at the Mhm. And I have to admit I had my computer on auto delete if it was opened Yeah. uh when I came when I came through customs. Wow. And I

was ready to go live on national television if I was detained by border Wow. Which actually happened to me after I did the Grusch story. Really? Yeah, after I did the Grusch story, I was detained and held by CBP. Oh my god. And um a mutual friend of ours made some inquiries and confirmed that there'd been some kind of a flag put on my um on my file. I believe Unfortunately, it was so high level they couldn't access But basically, somebody I suspect from the agency had flagged that we want to

know when Coulthart comes through next and let's cause them some mischief. And I have to admit I um we have a euphemism in Australia tearing somebody a new [ __ ] I I I just wasn't going to put up with it. And I I I very I summoned my anger and basically yelled at border protection and said, "I strongly advise that you get on the phone, whoever it is that's flagged me, contact them now or tell them I will be going live on television

in about 10 minutes to talk about the fact that I'm being illegally held. I have a valid visa. You have no good reason to hold me. If you want to fight, you can have one." And I was let out. Good for you, man. Well, I think you're ho- hopefully you're protected and you're protected by the by the public cuz I think you Well, it's funny. I I look, I I must confess I've been quite humbled coming to where we are. Sure, everybody here. No, see you are. I I've been mobbed. Yeah, I believe it. And and and it's funny my my wife and children think it's hilarious that that there is this fandom. Uh there's even a

guy, God bless him, in Germany who's done a three-dimensional model of me with far too much hair, which is quite Doesn't show the gut and it doesn't show the lack of hair. And um my wife and children just wanted to know whether it had a bobblehead like this so we could stick it on the front of the Oh my god, that's amazing. That's hilarious. But you know, I'm I'm really touched by the fact that people care about this issue. And and just to make it serious for a moment, the issue is still ridiculed in much of

British-style English-language Australasian press. You know, I get mocked and ridiculed by my journalist colleagues cuz I take UFOs seriously. You know, and people will pejoratively sneer, "How's your UFO obsession, Ross?" Or there's actually a national broadcaster, the ABC in Australia. And one poppers [ __ ] on that broadcaster Oh, Ross has called out. He's been investigating UFOs. He's either completely crazy or he's the best

journalist ever. Yeah, that's the best compliment you could ever get. was a snide It was deliberately snide because the clear inference was I was You can't be the best journalist a [ __ ] house journalist and I was obviously going crazy. But the thing I'm really heartened by is the degree of interest that sparked me getting hired by NewsNation is incredible. When we did the David Grusch interview NewsNation, admittedly not at the time a very high-rating news channel. No, you brought it on the map. It

escalated its ratings by 990%. It's amazing. And they still say to me that UFOs UFOs is the issue that saved the network. Yeah. And it's really interesting issue the audience, no matter what the mainstream media do to ignore this issue, you know, you've got the doctrinaire attitude of the New York Times. We're not going to do UFO stories. We're going to reject the David Grusch story. You know, the the Jake the Jake

The Jake Barber story wouldn't fly in any of the national media. I don't think it's had a coverage anywhere. I don't think it's had a coverage yet. and yet the public they make it clear they really want this And they can smell another journalistic euphemism I'll give you. They can smell a smelly turd when they smell one. Mhm. this story stinks to high heaven. Yeah. And they can smell [ __ ] And what fascinates me is particularly

the younger generation. Mhm. I'm amazed. I've never had a story I've always been the kind of old fart of journalism, you uh and doing investigative stories that not many people are really that interested in, but they matter because they're sort of interesting points of This one really captures the imagination of the millennials and the X generation. It's amplifying what I do on NewsNation. And I don't know how to use Instagram or Tik Tok, but there are kids that are making a living out of repackaging my

stories on Instagram and Tik Tok, and my daughters are constantly coming to me saying, "Dad, have a look at this. This guy's making a fortune out of doing your stories on Tik Tok." And I go, "Look, I don't know how to do it. I haven't got time to do it. Good luck to them, you know, that's great." But what it's done is it's generated this massive audience. Mhm. And I'm not trying not to sound boastful, but you know, we're routinely getting millions of views for stories that frankly, I'm genuinely surprised and excited and interested that people are watching them. Well, you're doing an amazing job.

Secret Mountain. Unbelievable. near Sedona. It's within 5-7 km of Sedona. And more importantly, there's a place called Secret Canyon where there's allegedly a portal. Some kind of interdimensional portal. And I thought all of this was just crazy there are incredibly brave and super super interesting people, Jeremiah Hostetler and his wife Alexandra, who live in Sedona. And they've been doing some really

clever on-the-ground research. Mhm. And one of the things we did a lot of the stuff we got, as so often happens, you can't put it in the story because you can't get these people to go on camera. But there was a number of people who would privately admit that they'd been walking in what is public land. Public parkland. Mhm. And they'd be stopped by men with guns, men in uniform with with with automatic weapons, clearly highly trained elite soldiers, probably tier one operatives from the way they moved.

And they would basically order people "Go away, or we will kill you." No no mucking around. And there are sightings, numerous sightings, of what we saw. I saw it with my own eyes. I was told that the best time of night is around about 1:30 in the morning. And if you looked at a particular place over Secret Mountain, you would see this big orb being by helicopters rising from behind Secret Mountain. So I was skeptical, but we went out with

a local lady, Melinda Leslie, who has some good quality uh military-grade night vision goggles. And we watched at 1:30 in the morning, and sure enough up comes this beautiful golden orb, gigantic. It pulses. It's plasmatic. It slowly moves off, and the way it moved you couldn't tell if it's because it got smaller or whether it went so fast that it just disappeared so quickly, but it just disappeared.

And they were they were being escorted by military Black Hawk helicopters. Dozens of them. I mean, the helicopter fuel bill alone for the evening that we're watching them must have been somewhere between $50 to Somebody is paying huge money to operate orbs with no visible means of propulsion over secret mountain in Sedona. And it's funny because um one of the people told us

that um if you want to hide something you hide it in plain sight. And that's the best way to describe what's going on in what I think is happening in Sedona. And Do you think that's NHI, non-human? Do you think it's man-made or I mean there are allegations that that base is NHI. I've had people who are psionic tell me that they have detected NHI in that in that area. Sedona is also a strange place. It's a place everybody says when you go weird stuff happens.

Yeah, no it does. And and I I never expected to see such overt displays of obviously anomalous in company with obviously military style aircraft. And you show footage it's which is amazing and then you also show all these sort of logical fallacies of the cover story where it's like I think there's like a contract between Northern Arizona University but like none of the professors ever show up or whatever. and and it's and it's funny because um

what we're talking about is the Bradshaw Ranch and there's allegedly a portal in the Bradshaw Ranch that was seen by the former owner of the ranch Linda And she actually took photographs of it. And um it opened up in a particular area of the ground around that ranch which just so happens to be the area that's fenced And we noticed that there is a tower in the middle of that area. This is supposedly a deserted ranch.

There's nobody there. There's no electrical power. And there's solar panels on this post that has a camera. Now if you're protecting the security of what is supposedly an academic research you have the camera pointed out so that you can see people coming from the outside. Yeah. But, you know where the camera's pointing? Where? It's pointing exactly at the point where Linda Bradshaw says she saw the portal. And then the other thing we noticed when we were there, and this was picked up by

my friend Paul, who's an Australian ground penetrating radar He um he heard a humming. Mhm. And he kicks a bush aside, and there's this gigantic three-phase power power box with a cable definitely going into the ground. Wow. Three-phase power, and it's humming. And then we walk a bit further around, and there's another one. And there's massive amounts of electrical power going into the ground

there? No. I mean, I was half tempted to get a shovel and start digging it out. But, the the interesting thing is um the other thing we we we learned about there's an egress point into this whole secret facility called the Clarkdale Cement Plant. And the weird thing about it is it's nowhere near Secret Mountain. Mhm. It's halfway between two mountain ranges, but it if you run a direct line between those two mountain ranges, and put it through Bradshaw Ranch, where we know there's a tunnel, or at least we picked

up the tunnel, and if you match the walls of the tunnel with where it goes, it goes directly to the Clarkdale Cement Plant. And one of the things we heard about from locals was that 20 years ago the drilling was so intense that things were shaking on the bookshelves and they were obviously tunneling underneath the village at Clarkdale where these people And people were even compensated for damage. And you know, I mean

I don't understand as a journalist. I mean, I've been taught to do the work on the ground and go and ask the question. Don't accept what you're told by some defense PR flunky. Go and check and do the basic checking. I think the interesting thing is that this is all coming out at a time in journalism where sadly investigative journalism is in serious decline because even the great masthead newspapers like the New York Times, the Wash Post, the

LA Times, the Boston Globe, the Baltimore Sun, papers I grew up like I didn't have Bay City Rollers on my wall. I used to paste up big newspaper investigations. That's what I always wanted to be. And um it's sad because that era of great big budget investigative journalism where they would deploy teams of people to go and investigate stuff, it's well and truly over. And the big unspoken secret about the New York Times is even the New York Times doesn't have the resources to do this kind of journalism.

But all you need to do, if I was the editor of a newspaper today, I would put 10 days into deploying a couple of investigative journalists to go up from Phoenix and have a look at what I saw in Sedona. And you will find a deep underground military facility that is highly protected, has hydraulically operated doors in the side of mountain sides, and is secretly operating what I suspect is non-human technology. It's amazing, and it corroborates,

you know, Larry Sanders who wrote a book about deep underground military bases. Sauder's. Richard Sauder, sorry, thank you. And Catherine Austin Fitts who talks about large, you know, trillions of dollars missing from the the federal budget, from the DOD budget to to go towards these these projects. So, and then that Kobit's story and other story, Randy Anderson's story. So, At what point though do I mean, this is the thing I don't get. I really don't get it. It's almost like there's a willful blindness in Cuz why do we expect the mainstream media to follow this? Because they

should. Yeah. But they No, they they really should. It's like the most interesting, important thing and it's if you talk about like an Archimedes lever, like the point of most leverage. I mean, you can cover like local grifts, right? But why don't you cover like the trillions of dollars missing from the from the DOD's budget or why don't you, you know, this stuff? No, I love that quote and it's a true quote. I actually dug it out when I was writing my book that Donald Rumsfeld admitted that there was something Is it 23 trillion dollars missing from the DOD's budget?

trillion missing in an audit the day before 9/11 happened. You can make that Trillions of dollars are disappearing from the American defense budget. Documented. That's actually one thing I really liked about what Doug was doing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Musk was basically saying, "Why the hell do you not have the acquittal numbering that allows you to reconcile what this money is for with where it's being spent?" Well, there is an amazing, I think it was like Babylon B like headline or

something and it was "Elon Musk leaves job of making government more efficient for easier job of allowing humans to occupy Mars." Which is like this guy doesn't give up on anything." You know, the a successful car company hadn't been built in the US since like the 1910s or something. And you have him build Tesla, you have him single-handedly resuscitate, you know, a version of NASA with SpaceX. And and and he gives up. With the with the government efficiency. I had to interview Elon in 2015

That's amazing. I didn't know that. 60 Minutes. Wow, how was that? Well, it was funny because I honestly genuinely had the feeling that like 1% of his brain was answering my questions and the the other 99% was working on another problem. But the thing I was really impressed with was he he was excited to show me around the SpaceX factory in LA because that was where they were building the new rockets. And a lot of the people in SpaceX, but particularly in the Tesla factory right next door, are

Aussies. Mhm. Because the Australians had laid off all of their car industry. We completely destroyed in an act of utter stupidity our entire car industry. And so a lot of those engineers went to work for Elon. And he loved Aussie But the thing I was really impressed with was he knew more about every aspect of the production line than anybody that he was showing us that day. And it wasn't some big performance. He really did know. And he was asking about metal

tolerances and you know, he really knew his stuff. Every of that production line he knew intimately. And you could see he had everybody on his toes. And frankly, that's if you're going to be running a rocket business or an electric car business, that's exactly the kind of propriety you want. No, it's it's he's incredibly impressive. Yeah. He has a unique mind and ability to to make things happen. Albeit albeit, I'm sure he's probably highly annoying to live with. I'm sure. And probably hiding something when it

comes to UFO issue because why he's been written. I've been I've been told he's been written. Uh yeah, I I think so, too. Um speaking of which, speaking of high-level people that you've spoken to, you were interviewed by Don Jr. by the son of the sitting president before you broke the Jake Barber story. What was that like and did it give you any hope as far as American movement on disclosure at the highest if Don Trump Sr. listens to his son, Don Trump Jr. is very engaged and interested

in UFOs. And in a in a really well-informed way, as well. I mean, um he's been briefed by a a lot of people and there's been a lot of Well, not a lot, but there's been multiple secret briefings of the Trump camp before they came into government. it's interesting because I am persuaded, not at the moment that I'm seeing any action, but I am persuaded that people like Tulsi Gabbard, Kash Patel in the FBI, Dols Tulsi, of course, is the DNI,

should be defunded. And she implied that the money should go to someone else and I think that's the FBI she's talking Yeah. Cuz I'm told that the briefing that the FBI gave in Congress really blew people away. And watch that FBI ongoing investigation. I've dealt with some of the people on the investigation I like G-men. They're they're like dogs on a bone and they're looking at crimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because ultimately, if

what we're talking about here is true, Mhm. David Grusch, Mhm. Jake Barber, Mhm. they have insinuated and alleged, all right, in Jake's case, that people have been murdered to protect the secret. Yeah. It's a capital crime. Yeah. There are people who I suspect are very nervous right now in the legacy program because they are under active FBI investigation. Yeah, I wonder what the mentality is of somebody or yeah, probably.

arrogant. I have no doubt they think they're going to get away with it. Uh-huh. And you know what? What? They probably will. Oh, no, don't say that. I'm pretty bleak. I I I I'm not I actually had an argument earlier on today, actually. Well, not an argument, but a a free and frank exchange of views Yeah. a lawyer who's been liaising with Congress um and they were having a bit of go at me because I I talked about how I'm talking to legacy program whistleblowers who want to come forward, yeah, but they're wary of coming forward

and they took a swipe at me and basically said, "We've got all these protections in Congress. You should bring them in and encourage them to come in." And I said, "Well, hang on a bloody moment. Look at what they've done with David Grusch's That's right. Sweet FA. Yeah. You know, David gave them first hand direct information from his sources of where to look, where to find the spacecraft. Yes. Where to literally go and open the door. Oh, by the way, there's a there's a spacecraft recovered from Aztec. Yeah. Open this door. Oh, yeah, that's

like, you know, his largest donors were all defense I mean, it's funny cuz I mean, a lot of the work is done in this preliminary investigation of allegations by people like David Grusch, by people like Lou Elizondo, people like Jake Barba. When they've gone in and given evidence in camera, in SCIFs, as they all have done to the Congress, the people that have been sitting there have been staffers. Yeah. And they're good people. They're well-intentioned, good people. But one of the things Jake Barba told me

when he was um giving his direct evidence of the legacy program, first-person evidence. So, I mean, people say, "Where's the evidence?" The first-person evidence of Jake Barba was given to the Senate Select Committee for And um one of the staffers on that committee was concerned for his own safety and asked Jake, "Are you able to help me get security because somebody from the Defense

Department is ordering helicopters to fly across and over my home. They're harassing my home." And that's the kind of thing that the Defense Department was doing. They were buzzing a guy with Black Hawk helicopters just hovering over his home as an act of intimidation. A staffer working for the Congress. I know exactly who you're talking about, and he was providing a pipeline of legacy operators. He was the one who basically talked to the Senate the Select Senate Committee on the topic. So, I'm not blaming the staffers

because these people are intimidated. They have families, too. And I don't think the public realized that this is how the game is being played. You've got a vast national security state and it is truly a deep state protecting itself. It's self-interest misusing the resources of the state, your money, your taxpayer dollars to essentially bully and intimidate and in some cases murder people. Yeah. It's That's where I sort of go There are so many times when I sit back in the story

and I go Hells bells. This is like a thriller. It's like a John Grisham thriller. Truly. But it's true. Yes. And it's being ignored by the premier national security reporters of the land. I mean any sane, rational editor who has an ounce of journalistic respect for himself in his bones would deploy staff to at least go and check out the basic allegations. See see if the 170-odd Q

cleared, you know, people seeing UFOs around our most sensitive sites, shutting them down in certain cases, might be somewhat credible. Like maybe maybe check that out. Yeah, it's crazy. But you know what I'm enjoying? I'm enjoying the tyranny of the internet. The fact that you and I are actually generating programs. In your case, you're actually making a living by the looks of it doing stories on this phenomenon and reporting on it. And it's interesting that proves to me there is an audience there that want this stuff.

There there there really isn't it? I think it resonates deeply with what they intuit about reality themselves, which is that there's more and that you know, there there have been sort of secret programs around these things hidden from them for a very long time. And with AI and with the internet, you can vigilante corroborate and research a lot of this stuff yourself. And so I think people are waking up post-pandemic. As much as I share your pessimism around government action on the topic, I do think the the larger,

you know, public is waking up to these broader realities and that's exciting. I'll tell you this. If you accept psionics, which of course the debunkers won't, Yeah. they're saying disclosure is coming. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Well, that it it There's a perturbation in the force, Yeah, well, hey, I think the government itself accepts psionics as we know through the their remote viewing programs that they had. that's the other doublethink, you know, we're told and there's a whole movie

made about it debunking the idea of telepathy and psychics and psionics. And you you've only got to read the CIA gateway documents in the CIA files and they show that that's actually not true. That that that essentially everybody took it very, very seriously spoken to people who've confirmed that there is still an ongoing psionic operation being run in the Pentagon. Clearly. Well, the the um nominal reason for shutting it down in 1995 was there

was only offense, there was no defense. Why would you shut a program down where there's still offense and it's still working offense? Makes no sense. Yeah, no, I I I just I don't know why people buy this, you know? Is it because they're so distracted covering the Ukraine war or but I I don't get it. I mean, what point did the lack of curiosity begin? I don't know. Well, something I've found anecdotally that I wonder if this is in accordance with with your meeting a lot of these guys with long

government histories and serious they're often more conspiratorial than people in the public. You expect you you know, a conspiracy theorist to be this tin foil hat, you know, they live in their mom's basement or something. They're like they're watching crazy [ __ ] on the news. But no, this is these are these people have serious credentials. Their version of reality is way weirder than the average person in public's Absolutely. I mean it it's it's how I felt when I started getting into

Because one of the first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me it's all about consciousness. Yeah. And I had no idea what he was talking about. really has taken me probably 7 years to actually begin to understand. And now I'm realizing more and more it's all about consciousness. Yeah. It really is. I agree. So much is downstream of that. Well, uh Ross, this

has been an honor. I have one final question before I before you before you go. Is there anything Joe Rogan just talked about this. Everybody talks about this amazing bombshell thing that you reported on. You know what I'm going to This UFO possibly found in that that that they needed to build a bunker around that was like, you know, a mile plus long. Anything you can say about it. I do not resile from saying what I've said previously, which is that there is

a buried or at least built upon UFO that was too big to move. And that's it. I I I part part of the reason it's actually it's weird just how angry people get because I can't reveal it. And there seems to be this view in UAP social that I'm obliged to reveal everything. No. And if I don't reveal everything, then I'm being irresponsible and I'm not helping the disclosure cause.

And one of the things that was steeped into me as a journalist I've been privy because people started leaking to me things that they probably shouldn't have done to secrets where including from America I should not have them. Mhm. Mhm. And I've been shocked that I've had these things in my hand and I've gone holy hell. And in some cases I burnt them. Wow. But the the worst one for me was when I covered a um I was I was made aware that Australia

was deploying special forces troops into um the Iraq desert Mhm. probably 3 weeks before the war started. And a friendly special forces operator told me that this was happening and I initially got really excited. And I actually went and spoke to a an editor about it and said look I've I've got this story. I mean they're deploying SAS troops. We're going in. You know, we're going to be in the western desert. And then we kind of looked at each other and went nah.

And and I spoke later on I did a story with the Australian SAS about what they'd done in the western desert. I asked one of the guys who'd been there if I revealed that, what would have happened? And he said we would have been killed. Oh my god. Well, there you go. And and and so in the case of the buried UFO Mhm. I can't reveal because if I reveal why I say this, it would compromise it. It's a very sensitive place. Mhm. That should be enough of a guide for you. Mhm. And to

reveal the full extent of what I know would compromise the lives of young men and women who are doing good things for America completely separate from the UAP program and they're probably oblivious to what's sitting downstairs. That's uh as valid a reason as ever. And it also, you know, to to to argue on your behalf against the the people that say that's bad for disclosure, you're going to torpedo your relationships if you you know, speaking to somebody they're never going to speak to you again if you reveal something that you promised not to. So Cuz I I actually take it as a

journalistic responsibility not to reveal something if it's going to compromise the safety of your country or my country. Absolutely. And and you know, we are really I lie in bed at night worried about how dangerous things are at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Israel launched a preemptive attack on Iran in the next few weeks. I wouldn't either. It's a it's a the world's in a freaky place and I think I don't know if you mind dialectic around the UFO issue, but I think about that and I'm like, oh maybe UFOs don't matter, the world's

going to blow up. And then I say, well, if the world's going to blow up, if there were ever a time to care about UFOs and throw a Hail Mary, it would be now. Well, one of the things I asked somebody very recently was, is this some kind of super weapon that we've got stashed away because I've heard this rumor and it looked to be honest with you, it's only rumor. It's people who wouldn't really know for sure, but they've told me second hand stuff suggesting that the US has developed what what are called scalar weapons.

Well, you heard the Michael Kratsios We are capable of so much more. Our technologies permit us to manipulate time and space. They leave distance Which you know, he's in an official position and he said And I know and and Trump keeps on that the US has a weapon, a super weapon that they haven't revealed yet. But notice Putin has said exactly the same thing. Mhm. And I have been told that the Russians have developed extraordinary weaponry and I wouldn't be surprised at all

one of the primary reasons for the secrecy is because each nation thinks that they have an advantage with scalar weapons, but the reality is none of them do. Right. Oh, wow. That's scary that there's some subrosa Manhattan Project 2.0 going on. Oh, I'm sure there's a Manhattan Project 2.0 going Well, you have these rumors that you had Kammler stuff in in Nazi Germany where they were doing kind of black world nuclear stuff. tell you one thing. I'm sorry, we we were trying to finish, but I'll just give you this little tip. We could we talk forever, yeah. There's a There's a friend of mine who speaks to

a lot of astronauts and to people who supervised astronauts and um one story that came up was that in the early days of glasnost when and America were kind of friends again. Mhm. Russia imparted to America that it was in possession of a crashed craft and there was an astronaut a known astronaut still alive deployed to go and actually I don't know if he's still alive

to go and assist in the retrieval and a lot has changed in the last what 25 years since the 30 years since the end of the Cold War. 35 years. Mhm. And it it's really interesting because I suspect that there has been collaboration in the distant past between the Americans and the and the Russians and that it suited each side to keep quiet about the fact that there is this sub rosa Manhattan Project going where essentially there's a Cold War.

There's a battle for possession of and development of non-human technology and I'm in no doubt whatsoever that that's happening. Well, that's an amazing note to end on which is let's hope disclosure happens and these scionic viewers are correct before the world blows up. Me, too. Um Ross, this is an honor, man. It has a long time coming for me and it's amazing to to hear all your you know, your vast knowledge and all the stuff and uh pray for your continued

productivity because you are you're really doing the Lord's work. Well, vice versa, Jesse. I love your show and there's plenty of room there for both of us. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Ross.