UFOs & Religion: Vatican Reveals Hidden Link (Ft. Diana Pasulka)

she's versed in the classics and maintains a deep knowledge of Catholic history while doing research for a book on Purgatory she wrote called Heaven Can Wait in 2014 she began to document dozens of historical cases of nuns priests brothers and Saints who had reported direct Divine or Angelic contact but here's where the story gets interesting Dr Pula did her own own translations of these contact experiences she didn't take the official Church translations for granted and in

Sparks and a flaming torch telepathic communication between Francis and the torch occurs in which Francis is treated harshly and wounded with rays of light that rip through his hands francis's wounds get interpreted as Christ stigma this looks very similar to things that people talk about today radiation damage could this the same radiation damage that occurs in what we now call UFO experiences the people getting like Burns so that's ultraviolet that's like

ionizing radiation so that would be light being blue shifted into the ultraviolet as it's lens across the bubble that the craft creates and you're getting literally a sunburn are Modern gry Aliens just the Angels or Demons of times past you had like uh you know witches sitting on the chests of people feeling paralyzed in medieval times times it's like our overlay is this classic alien kind of motif and what about flying saucers or discs are they just the Flaming chariots or burning Shields or wheels of antiquity Ezekiel

Saw the Wheel baby first chapter I'm with you what we're talking about is in some sense a modern Reformation just as Martin Luther believed the word of God was all one needed for salvation Diana is going back to the original texts and translations of divine contact events and finding all sorts of commonalities with modern-day alien contact experiences this is a new form of religion it's not just a religion cuz we do have UFO religions right but this is a new form of religion and the Contemporary mythology defines

how we discuss or recollect these experiences as French philosopher on re brione wrote the eyes can only see what the mind is prepared to comprehend people have been seeing the same stuff like so the Tic Tac of today was the Flying butane tank totally of the 1950s it's almost like you have like a meme library in your head and then you have this higher platonic thing that's happening and you attach the the closest meme that you can to it yeah exactly so are we just now getting closer to the

root layer of religion understanding its Proto architecture its Universal Timeless nature maybe we're looking at the source code the point is we're all getting a little closer to the light seeing beyond the Shadows of Plato's Cave and Diana is helping us get there so on that note please enjoy this riveting simulation breaking conversation with this week's American Alchemist Dr Diana Walsh Pula different parts of the rain have

um you know that they miss see say in the sky and belief is gone up and so I wanted to know why and I had a feeling it had to do with entertainment media right and that's what I was looking at and the implication with Tyler is almost CU he worked on the NASA Challenger Mission and he had a colleague an astronaut famously die in ' 86 and he he worked on a lot of space missions since then and high up in NASA and the implication is almost from your book that he's using his Consciousness in

some way in mission control or was he somehow CU he's he feels very tapped into some sort of network where he gets ideas he's he says that he goes to a room where there's a machine and he doesn't know exactly what the machine does but he gets a lot of ideas about biomedical Innovations and goes on to actually start companies that are super successful and so what is the link between space fair and Consciousness is there a clear link or well okay these

are things that I think were working out yeah so what I noticed was ex exactly what you noticed so the traj of his professional life was incredibly lucky yes yeah like this was a guy who was so lucky that it just seemed improbable how could you be that lucky right you know I mean also he wasn't the best in college almost flunked out even that's interesting and didn't go to the best college right so the more how did he get into space I

know well he told me all these stories about how these things happened to him and every time he told me a story about this I was like that's highly unlikely and improbable but it did truly happen right so I began to like see what he did I began to like study him right so he had a protocol he used use these things that I later called protocols but they reminded me as a person who studies religion these protocols that people use in each religion and one of them obviously is prayer or meditation in the Eastern Traditions actually at the time

I started to practice these protocols because I was really incredible L busy and drank too much coffee you know didn't sleep well it wasn't a bad life it's just that I was really busy so he would talk about connecting he would go into some type of a state when he woke up he made sure he got a lot of sleep he made sure that he was hydrated okay well now we know why hydration is really important because you know our bodies are like 80% water around that and water

conducts so if there are electrical things happening you just have to be hydrated and so he made sure he was hydrated so he made sure that his biophysical self was able to connect with this thing that he said and he explained how it felt it would feel like a signal coming in um and then he would get the information that he needed to do these Technologies or create these businesses so this is a it's kind of a crazy weird question but jacqu fet has

clearly influenced you a lot sort of in some ways the Godfather of modern UFO research one of the early pioneers of the internet um but also talked about how UFOs work as sort of control systems you intermittent reinforcement to sort of maybe uh control Societies in ways that we don't even fully understand and he's also interested in Fallen Angels you talk about this in encounters that's right and also demons and and and

so Angels and Demons what what does this have to do with modern uthology uh yeah yeah okay so yeah so this is a scene in encounters yes where I'm I'm having lunch with jacqu Val so we're in his study and it's really amazingly beautiful here in the Bay Area um and he starts to um explain a couple of things to me and I notic a bunch of books on shelves and I noticed those things right

yeah so I go and I start to look to see what he has on this one shelf and then he takes one of the books off and it was uh a book about angels and he says of course you can't have one without the other right and so we went out and had some C some coffee and pastries yeah um in his living room and so we talked and he asked me what I learned from Tyler yeah he said what did we learn from Tyler and at the at the time I was like you got my

book you know I was thinking you got my book Jack you know but then I thought what did we learn from Tyler so I couldn't really answer him and thankfully I took too long to answer him because he picked up another book and he said you need to read this book and whenever he says that to me of course I'm going to get the book and read it but this one was weird so he showed it to me and it was the history of Satan it was it just had the big words on it that says Satan and again if I wasn't a little bit concerned before I was absolutely concerned at that point I was like you know jacqu Val is handing me

this book that says Satan on it and so he he uh he said look at the pagination so I you know looked at the pagination it was 666 who yeah I thought that was so you know of course wow it was a really weird moment and he said that in the states we think of the we think of Satan or the devil as really really terrible right but you know he said that the French they have a different view of it and it's a much it's less

sensationalist that's what he was saying and then he he had another bookshelf and it was the same thing so he picked out a book and it was he made a joke you know he's really funny as you know right he's super funny and so he made a joke and he said feels like he's always trolling you a little bit I'm serious that's exactly how he is he is and it's almost like the work that he talks about where you know it's like the hand of the sound of one hand clapping the Zen cone or what the absurdity of the phenomena itself it almost feels like it comes through him and the way he speaks is sort of like

confusing and it's like he throws like a smoke bomb and you're like what did you say and you like you end up trying to parse it even more than you would if it were immediately clear because you would just be like okay yeah I'll meet you at this place or whatever but he uses a word and you're like what's going on there and then sort of you're more motivated to yeah yeah I agree my son burn it it is from the devil I've never been so trolled in my life throughout this whole study you know I was just like this normal kind of Professor of religious studies doing my

Cosmic changed me and many people I know forever it starts off not only skeptical of UFOs but as a pretty rational academic take on the subject in fact the first half of the book almost reads like a dismissal of UFOs as a modern Scion discussing how TV and media are very influential in defining how people recollect their alien or UFO sightings for example she talks about Betty and Barney Hill in 1961 seeing aliens with eyes wrapped around the rim of their heads but were

1969 interview that interpreting the monolith as an alien artifact is the movie's most superficial interpretation kubric even initially experimented with the monolith literally being a screen that flashes targets for the Apes to hit with rock almost a visual hunting manual flashing shapes and colors for the Apes to learn increasingly abstract Concepts and evolve in the novelized version of 2001 written by Arthur C Clark the monolith above astronaut David Bowman's bed was

actually just a TV so is the monolith just the smoke screen in Plato's Cave Diana goes even deeper on the possibility of a UFO scop she gets into modern UFO Cults like Dorothy Martin and her followers a group of Midwestern rapturous that believed that they were recipients of a UFO prophecy about an impending Apocalypse in 1954 which of course never happened okay so media subtly influences our UFO experiences the monolith isn't an alien artifact it's a screen that manipulates

our reality and we have a bunch of crazy UFO Cults running around our modern UFO is just a scop built in a Disney Studio but as soon as you're ready to write UFOs off as a big scop something kind of crazy happens in the book she meets the pseudonymously named Tyler who worked as a NASA Mission controller since the80s but also worked in an alleged secret space program where he used specific protocols to mentally download information instrumental for biotech companies that he founded he's

definitely atypical of a space force guy you know rocket scientist you have a certain stereotype of these guys and they're not driving really awesome cars or flying around in Jets but that's what he was doing he actually said he was interested in what I studied and you know I study religious studies now he's not the first Aerospace guy who's asked me about my work so I had been asked by some people that I later found out were part of what we call the invisible College these scientists who study you know this topic and I had been doing

UFO crash site in New Mexico together it was a secret place uh on government land it was a New Mexico crash retrieval place and it was a place that you know was not Roswell but this is what Tyler told me he said there were a few crashes that happened in the 1940s they then find UFO crash materials with anomalous isotope ratios not generally found on Earth we did find things but they weren't easy to find if they were placed there they were placed so far down rocks

that had been there for looked like a hundred years you know like stuff that you just couldn't get if all this sounds insane it initially did to me too but reality is insane or at least it's a little weirder than you think it's so interesting I know it's really really so strange the thing about it is it's a both and so you say you know uh at first you think the book is going to be about Walt Disney did it all and scoped us and things like that well it's both and it's like yes there were Sops that happened

and yes there is a phenomena that exists and so I guess that is the hardest thing to convey is that people want either or you know they want either there's nothing and we're being fooled and you know bad on you government or yeah whoa it's it's it's really the space people are here and they're going to save us what if I mean it's it's way more complicated than that and what if per yours and jock valle's work where you can compare past you know uh St Francis

purposes in Cold War so you're using an existing underlying phenomena for your own purposes right and so this the modern space alien stuff that might be the smoke screen we're seeing we're we're just seeing the veil and we're seeing these sort of uh low-level memes or motifs and yet in a in a weird way there's this has been going on transcending SpaceTime this is this has been going on across history yeah and these really profound ways and that's not a scop that is so real yes and

experiences people have are real totally real in the late 1800s while sleeping in her small cell in a Catholic Convent a young nun named sister Maria was awakened by a shining object like a flame that appeared to emerge from her room's wall and hover above her no one in the convent believed her but she convinced the Mother Superior to stay up with her one night lo and behold the flame emerged from the wall and hovered over the two women the Mother Superior determined that the flame must be a soul

experiencers and this description of an orb bouncing around Melissa's room sounds exactly like the 19th century Catholic nuns experience are these two experiences the same thing one with a religious overlay and the other interpreted as paranormal disenchantment and secularization where even Garden variety people who follow religion often don't actually believe in the metaphysical

reality of the religion it almost feels like the most charismatic thing that you can believe is something that really marries science and religion which the UFO thing does yes because it is it is both nuts and bolts and and space and it is angels and demons and and spirituality that's right and so there's something highly charismatic about it that I think we would both say on a go forward basis it's probably just going to keep grow growing yes and um so what

what I'm getting at I guess is it can it could be really negative and it can be really positive and so how do you how do you make sense of that like angels and and and demons and it can be both and there's a book called B deviled and it's about the history of demons in science and you know whether it's you know James Clerk Maxwell or leel or dekart uh a lot of these people had experiences with sort of demonic and so and Socrates SP spoke to a Damon

so one letter off from demon and so is like is and then some of these inventions are like really positive for Humanity and then at other times they're cataclysmic and destructive and horrible so what's going on yeah yeah oh gosh that's a big question you know how am I gonna answer it I don't know how about if I have a conversation about it okay let's do it okay okay paretic yeah exactly exactly dialectic dialectic yeah so it is true that you say it's the UFO melds science and religion yeah right

all kinds of different screens right and we're just going to be converted through these screens but I didn't I didn't figure that I would have experiences myself going through the study of it and that I would then think okay something is happening here and that's what happened yeah well that that's and now I'm I'm just going to be open about it because it's it feels like the cats out of the bag with all this stuff I used to try I used to try to maintain sort of

Twilight Zone and did the made the most famous UFO documentary in the I think it was the 50s or 60s and then I made this thing with grush or whatever you know like like a couple months ago and it's just this weird thing where you you start to feel even more connected to it and a completely impart you the the goal of science is to stay impartial but it's sort of possible with this and everybody I know who's at the Forefront of disclosure whether it's you or Gary Nolan or any of they admit that they've

because I was so honest about it I was like this is going to happen this a new religiosity you know let's do this academically and then boom Oh what this is for Real it is for real and then okay if it's for real what does it mean and that's my followup was like so I you know my followup was like if it's for real then what it means is that we better take life pretty darn seriously yes okay so if it doesn't cause you to

go off the deep end I think what it does is it causes you to I hate to say this word but or this term but go on the straight and narrow yes absolutely because if you don't I basically don't drink anymore I have very little Caffe I never have caffeine basically and and you feel more sensitive to reality way and and and then you and then you you end up having to go in the straighten era you have to sort it's a foring function that's that's what oh very good Jesse it's a

forcing function I'm going to now use that term I tried to understand what it was been when I told people that these people aren't holy yes but they are doing this and they're doing this because they have to do it and that's not a choice you know these visitations in a way are kind of like a modern mystery event people don't just walk away traumatized in some cases they do uh but in other cases I mean transformed for the better well it's almost like as you study this you become uh and this is

not scientific terminology but like a frequency but non-specific amplifier or receptor and so as you get deeper into it you pick up more you become much more sensitive and bad stuff can glom onto you more easily and so it's almost like CS loose the screw tape letter where you have to be hyper Vigilant yeah but you also are tapped into really good stuff too and it's like an amplification or intensification of what somebody who H

isn't on the path yet might experience let's talk about a specific example the one I love is St Francis of aisi where the UFO experience becomes a forcing function to become a better person but also that involves a lot of hardship for him he starts out this sort of popular you know life Life Of The Party Guy and then he has you experience and like basically like dies from it oh do you want to tell the full account yeah okay so what happens is that Francis is praying and something comes out of the

sky and the way that it's described is that there's a lot of like Sparks and it seems kind of spinning and there's an there's an eye right that comes down and uh and there's different versions of it too so that's what people need to know is that there's the artistic version of it and the dogmatic version of it so the information I was able to get was that the angel was harsh with him okay now

I'm not quite sure what that means but that's how it gets translated so it's he it deals harshly with him and he receives Burns maybe so this is then interpreted as being the Stigmata and it's interpreted as as the Angel Like Jesus talking to him like you know how this messenger com coming down and talking to him now this isn't unlike things that you see today like in contemporary you know UFO that's the the

thing that I was trying to point out was that this looks very similar to things that people talk about today radiation damage and all the stuff K green and Gary Nolan's work I mean that's when it really hit me was I was actually at the the New Mexico site and we hadn't gone there yet it was the night before and we were all just hanging out having a beer and Gary decided he was going to share his research with us and photos and everything and took like two hours to go through a lot of this stuff and I was

horrified at you know because he's doing he's in and in fact part of his motivation was to try to stop this from happening right to people do you think that my mind went for whatever reason when you were talking talking about the story of uh St Francis of bisi To The Ark of the Covenant and the holy holiest of holies and you have to be a certain level of Purity to make contact and if you don't then somehow it does violence to you or something so do okay so this

question of your Purity or else okay um so in a lot of traditions that have these you know that discuss this contact with non-human intelligences whether we interpret them as like deities or you know UFOs or whatnot um a lot of them do have these this idea similar idea as in the merba tradition right you do have to be and by the way you also see this in the socratic tradition but strangely it's with philosophy you know so they you have to

be a certain age and you have to have done so much math and purified yourself in order to understand philosophy like truth and things like that um so yeah yeah so you see this so now do I don't know if that's true or not but this is you know this is the historical fact that people believe this and people have prepared themselves to to do this now listen when people ask me because a lot of people do I have people

say I go talk to a class or you know do some podcast and I'll have somebody ask me how can I make contact right and I don't recommend that at all yeah right right especially not in some sort of recreational you know like it's fun or whatever like good luck you yeah yeah I don't recommend it do it's dangerous I think if it happens it'll happen when you least expect it and you should just reality is set up the way it is for a reason I think you can just move through

your own life and uh contemplate virtue and get where you need to go through that and then I do think yeah yeah it's like staring at the sun for tooo long when you yeah kind of study this stuff or whatever it's the heroic dose yeah yeah totally just don't do it just don't do it or or two steps forward one step back and you know but it but really yeah don't go don't always go looking for it and do you think that the last supper was some sort of hermetic ritual was

like maybe maybe um a mystery ritual like there's a um another religious studies professor at uh Princeton I believe named Elaine Pagel I know her you know her yeah she's great and she wrote beyond belief yeah she's great and she talks about the uh Gospel of of Thomas yeah and how Jesus Takes Thomas aside Whispers secret words to him M and maybe the whole thing even if you read the book of John the whole thing there's a reading of it where the whole thing feels a little more choreographed than

yes absolutely expect and so do you think maybe the wine was like the Kon you know this Greek drink spiked with Urgot that maybe allowed him to see Beyond the Veil and then there's this other s this we're getting deep conspiracy territory but I'm friends with Randall Carlson and you know Brian rescu and they suspect maybe Jesus never died and um Joseph of ARA actually just uh took Jesus in who was lifeless when

pilate sort of poked him but actually resuscitated him with herbs this is probably all very heretical for you're a religious studies Professor so if you feel like you need to say this is please just let me know pag is also studies yeah so she's she studies Heretics so yeah okay well so is there any we don't have any we're not like practitioners or if we are we don't bring it into our work certain Gnostic interpretations of the New Testament maintain the belief that Jesus actually never died that the

last supper was all more of a choreographed mystery ritual then meets the eye where Jesus was sedated and then resuscitated take Luke 22:10 Jesus tells the disciples keep your eyes open as you enter the city A man carrying a water jug will meet you follow him home then speak with the owner of the house the teacher wants to know where is the guest room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples already there are references

to something going on behind the scenes who's the guy with the water jug then in the Book of Matthew Jesus says verily I say unto you that one of you shall betray me so he knows he's about to be betrayed and then he drinks hisop an herbal sedative maybe so the Romans think he's dead in fact the popular account has Jesus dying within 6 hours while on the cross which doesn't really make biological sense the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas goes even further these are the secret sayings which the living

Jesus Jesus spoke in which Judas Thomas wrote down and he said whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not death so all of a sudden the disciples supposedly betraying Jesus is maybe his closest Confidant recording the secret knowledge of immortality Joseph of ARA who is supposedly a disciple as well indicating that there are more than 12 disciples then comes to retrieve Jesus's body Joseph embalms him with herbs myrrh and Alo which you might do if you were

trying to resuscitate someone the text even reads that pilate granted Joseph the corpse of Jesus using the Greek term P or a lifeless body but when Joseph asks for the body of Jesus he uses the word Soma meaning to save heal or make the body whole finally when the disciples go to roll away the stone of the Sepulcher it had already been rolled away maybe by a recently resuscitated Jesus Is there any chance do you think that the last supper was a mystery

ritual okay so I have to talk as a not practitioner here sure you know of and as a religious stat Professor so listen when I look at uh that ritual yeah you know the uh the Last Supper yeah which is they're Jewish so it's a Seder right yeah exactly Passover yeah yeah okay but we have to wonder why it was up taken then into the the Roman Catholic Church cuz it wasn't like the Agape feasts they weren't really that they weren't that

ritual right so then let's think about this what distinguishes like um certain types of Institutions or societies from some sorts of Institutions that are more like smaller institutions like tribal Villages or indigenous communities they basically believe in the presence of you know spirituality in many many things like in forests in rivers you know Sky beings in trees and things like that so

there's a sense of presence well then you know what happens in the institution of Rome is there's this like there's no presence right and so you make this what they're doing is they're recreating presence I think so and what do you mean by presence exactly well okay so if you're Catholic and you're Orthodox you know this that that ritual is supposed to be when the priest does the transubstantiation of it's supposed to be the actual presence of Jesus you hear

the bell in the mass it goes deep and then that's the presence not just the it's also the bread and the wine become the blood and the body and that's not symbolic for Catholics or for orthodox it becomes symbolic for Protestants and so oh wow so is this is Catholicism more uh sort of cannibalistic than we realize or something like eating yeah I mean yeah there's like an alter yeah I mean I hate

to tell you this and you'd be shocked this is H this happens to my students when we talk about you know I say okay when you went because but a lot of them are Protestants so they they don't know that this is what Catholics and Orthodox Christians are doing when they're like doing this thing on the Altar and this brings me back to the let's talk about Rene Gerard yeah let's do it because Renee Gerard is like this is exactly what he's talking about because he talks a lot about structural violence right structural violence so he basically asks why are we so mean to each other

like why do we always feel the need to kill one another like what is this and so I think about my life you know as a young person going through college then going through graduate school and all the books that I read like some of them really stood out to me and they were Plato's Republic which asked can there be a just Society and there were the gospels of Jesus right obviously I became a religious studies professor and there was Rene ard's work really each of these texts say that this is structural you know so

when you think like you know as a kid kind of growing up with parents who were liberal you know we got to save the world well yeah we do have to save the world but the thing is is that it's structural the bad is structural right you can't you can't do enough yes and Gerard is interesting because yeah he had sort of a bit of a cult following as a professor and I think there's a Roberto colasso quote there are foxes and they hedgehogs you know there's people that know a lot about a lot and

then there's somebody that knows one thing and you can apply it's sort of grand Theory of Everything oh yeah that's him that's Rene and that was Renee Gerard because he was sort of a hedgehog yeah and in his case I think he thought that the history of the world was the history of violence and you had these sort of pagan scapegoating Cycles and there's something the only thing that is in some sense he situates Christianity as a non-unique religion because it's just another scapegoating story that's right but the way in which it is unique is that it sort of signals

the end of History because For the First Time The mythology and the story is taking the side of the scapegoat and not the mob not the masses which then you sort of um unlock this this idea that is both Maybe saving of humanity but also destroying of it like it's it sort of signals the the end of the world or something uh because the scapegoating rituals are cathartic control processes to keep Society moving forward where you

have sort of rivalis interactions around kind of desires that everybody have that are emergent uh and the scapegoat is then ritually sacrificed and then Society can that pacifies society and it and it can keep going but it can't keep going if you know know that you're doing a wrong thing in in scapegoating this this character and so there's something about Christianity which is subversive and messes with this technology that keeps the world going in a way that creates sews the seeds of the Apocalypse

that's right that's right so the thing is that we and by the way A Plus on that thank you thank you that was really amazing yeah um okay so the thing about it though is that so the Christian recognition that we killed Jesus right we is we are the ones guilt the depravity right yes and so he rightly remember we talked about a defense mechanism like a student asked me the other day you know is there you know is what's hopeful or can is there something

to hope for and I said yes you know but in part of the answer she we were talking about religion does religion offer hope and in one sense yes but in another sense it's a defense mechanism right and it defends us against so you know religion Springs up as a as a defense against our need to be this violent and to hurt each other like this and to kill the neighbor you know because we want what the neighbor has um and Christianity that the beauty that

Gerard interprets Christianity as being and by the way a lot of times I don't think Christianity lives up to Gerard's because because once we then perform this constantly we become like you didn't even know that it was a sacrifice this Mass you know so the reality of it is is that we're in the ritual and we kill we kill this innocent victim we we're killing a perfect good

person is what we're doing and then eating them right yeah okay so but but once we start to do this again again and again and again we be we just don't know what we're doing anymore and then people act we become programmatic people don't have so that's why I think something like a UFO yeah then comes in to break that up and basically say there's something here and it's it's actually not within your program yes and I think if you see the synchronicities you sort

of know you're on the right path you know you're like you're in some like exciting world pool if you see when you see the signs yeah okay I learned a bit about this actually yeah Tyson yap's book sand talk is really good by the way but he calls these synchronicities and these kinds of things that happen um extra cognitive events okay and he says that they're Natural Things what they do is they and I got this from studying creativity is that they actually provide dopamine right yeah so when you're like

doing something that's really creative and maybe even productive like creating a technology or something then you're going to really enjoy it like you know when people get into a creative space and they just go and they can't stop that's what's happening with them yeah wow so it's like intermittent reinforcement where like you get a little dose of the dop or something that's right that's right I kind of think that synchronicities are more how it actually is and that when we get out of our program we actually go whoa okay this is how it is but then we just go

back into our program because we're all trained right to on a program that brings back to the Gerard yeah that's right that's right yeah the defense mechanism theory yes that we have of life that we figured out yeah we relationship between time and UFOs

is there some interesting relationship are they from the future are aliens and closer Encounters of the Third Kind just experiences with our future selves or yeah what do you think yeah that's a really good question okay so what's really interesting is that okay so after the you know around 2019 or so I started to meet people who were people from technology communities right Tech techies basically um and a lot of them resonated with Tyler and recognized

themselves and a lot of them were creators of AI and some of them did Quantum Computing and things like that and so I started to engage with them because I was learning from them and I was learning about this whole idea of you know what are these things right and so I thought that their ideas were very interesting because the the normal idea is that they're extraterrestrial which means that they're from another solar system or even our solar system who knows and they've somehow you know have

some kind of craft that comes here yeah this is supported by Craft retrieval you know talk and stuff like that and they come here but um but that doesn't Accord with what people see when they see them in the sky you know they kind of disappear and reappear disappear reappear so this would suggest something entirely different or that you know we just don't understand that technology that they have so AI people being um really smart and generally very self-confident believe that they could

figure it out so they've been talking about the temporal aspects of it right so there and by the way this guy named um Stephen dick who is a NASA historian has been for like 40 years um he's he's now retired but he he's on the uh research team for the Galileo project I've corresponded with him for about a long time for since the beginning um of my study which is in 2012 he's been doing this for a long time and more than 20 years ago he suggested that these were uh AI a form of AI or that if we

met them they would be a form of AI and so this accorded with what jacqu Val said that they're technological right right or it's like cellular atom yeah these sort of control systems that it's like if you were trying to get so this is like rats in a prime number maze they don't understand the concept of prime numbers right so there's no way you can say turn right every single time you hit a prime number right but with pavlovian conditioning or inter intermittent reinforcement you could get them to run a prime number maze they don't know what they're doing no they're just going on the yeah impulse to get the treat or

what but they're they're implementing some grand plan or kind of plan in the process a plan that you know right right and so maybe these are AI Envoy Von noyman replicators or something that nip at the herd in ways that we don't it's like why Betty and Barney Hill and why Antonio viz boa like why these specific people but it might be moving us uh swaying Society in a specific theology or something well yeah so in conversations with some of these AI people uh they were basically saying

that now that we've you know we have that the discovery is is true of superp position and this you know uh what it it shows us is that there is this you know Place Beyond SpaceTime and there's information there and so this is information coming to us and and it's intelligent and that it doesn't have the same it's it doesn't have the same where it's the carrier is different right so

it's not us yeah let's I just uh before I don't want to forget this because we were talking about Tyler you go to the Vatican Observatory with him yes and he has a conversion experience yes and so can can we talk about that cuz that's seems like this profound thing where he bursts into tears and he says all I want to do I I don't care if I ever go back into the Space Program all I want to do is help people yeah cuz he was really doing a lot of this I wouldn't he he wasn't really conscious about what he

was doing he was just doing it right this was his job he was doing it since he was really young and he was really good at it he knew what to do he knew how to do it okay so then when he met me I told him what he was doing and that forced him to start to think about wait this is been happening yeah and so when we went to the Vatican this priest comes up to him and then they engage and then the priest somehow immediately decides that he's gonna take on Tyler like like

a like a mentor or something yeah and um he even blesses the project yeah so there's a picture of him blessing like the project which hadn't even been named or it may have been named I don't know he American cosm he blessed it he's he's just a really nice guy I'm just going to call him father K cool father Kay would take us to his Chapel which is outside the Vatican in Rome it was at a hospital and he would take us on his rounds so we would go to the hospital in the morning do mass and then go on his rounds and he

would take us to people who were ill some of them terminally ill and he would have us help him give um like uh it's uh it's it's not mass right but it's like it's a right of healing to very sick people and he would do that and some of the people made a huge impression on Tyler because there was a man who was fairly young and you know was there to he was terminally ill and I don't think that Tyler had ever been

around somebody he dedicated their lives basically to other people I saw that he started to get internal and started to become like reflective about himself and I could feel that that this was happening but I didn't know it was going to happen I just could sense that something was happening like this so then that's when we went to the observatory and in the OB Observatory The Observatory is the Catholic Observatory it's run by a Jesuit monk

who's you know an astronomer MIT train yeah yeah he's like really you know he and Tyler could have some good conversations right so the people that are there and and populate the observatory are the kind of people that would be like in the space program but they're super religious they're Catholic and so I had this feeling that when Tyler met them that it would be over for him that he would definitely know that that there was you know there was

something great and truthful and you know there was something like a god right actually strangely enough the International Space Agency people were there like 30 of them or so and they were all really young yeah it was like a whole thing for the International Space Agency young astrophysicists and stuff and and they actually knew who Tyler was wow yeah because no one knows who he is here he kind of got overcome with like I wouldn't say emotion but maybe it was emotion he he got overcome with like the

Epic nature of what was happening and of what we were doing and looking at like actual books that were written by Copernicus like first first editions and stuff you know I mean it was really amazing and Copernicus had a you know he was obviously came up with the theoretical model that the solar system revolves around the Sun and that we live in a heliocentric universe but he had a very interesting relationship with the son it was almost like a very spiritual Endeavor I know that oh yeah wow yeah

century also thought that the sun specific speically spurred on Evolution like it would it was somehow essential to the evolution of mankind so maybe it's a combination of the electromagnetic field of the Earth the new sphere you know and then and then also this sort of the Sun as well but that's fascinating anyway back to so Tyler yeah is uh studying this stuff and do you think it in some ways for Tyler it was a of Catholic faith but also his life

being D to space that was it probably made him realize just how profoundly meaningful his past life had been yeah I think so I think that's exactly what happened because I I knew that he had a profoundly meaningful life but because he was in this community of being secret you know the Fight Club Community that I discussed no one could ever know it so then to have him recognized by International Space scientists you know the European International Space

it was it was a beautiful thing to tell you the truth and um and then he he decided to convert and um here I am doing this you know this study for years and years and then this kind of happens but also what happens is he changes his idea of what these things are that he's feeling he's getting signals from so he feels that they're more in line with what because we were studying Saints who had these experiences and he was thinking that they're more in line with what they were you know experiencing too

these beings are in constant contact with us if we if we're able to receive their knowledge so do you have a sense of the relationship between the secret space programs and religion to in its totality do you think that these things are two Sid of a pyramid that sort of converge at some omega point or something are you asking about the religiosity of the Space Program because there seems to be one I am asking that is it sort of a gnostic religious

initiation process or what I'm still trying to figure it out but I do have some data on it yeah yeah so it looks to be and actually strangely enough at at the end of one of Tom delong's book actually he talks he makes a reference to the gods are still with us the Greek gods are still with us which I didn't know about actually until about 2 weeks ago and it it was really interesting to hear because I had just given a talk that I didn't want recorded I went to

New York City and I was giving a talk and the name of the talk was the Muse is real okay I went from the very like first idea of Muses you know thousands of years ago for the Greeks yeah and then how they kind of um they never really go away so even the founding fathers quote unquote of our country like Benjamin Franklin did you know that they were actually part of a Mason Lodge that was a muse Lodge it was dedicated I

knew he was a free mason I don't know he was part of a muse it was like the Seven Sisters the yeah it was a French Muse LOD talk about a guy with a million ideas he invented the bif focals uh a certain type of harps Accord you know famously was involved in electricity experiment like he was a complete polymath and so was probably tapped into all sort interesting well they knew it to be real that's what I was saying in my talk was that it wasn't just something that we think of them today the muses and we often think of them as

just like motifs or allegories or you know but we never actually think of them as something that could be real yeah well the atmology of the word genius is attendant spirit and it's kind of original right that's right that's right okay a lot of our words come from music by the way like museums is about the in fact museums were supposed to contain the spirit of the muses did you know that I isn't it interesting that we have a lot of museums in DC and a lot of architecture about the muses it's everywhere well it's also in the space

program so what I found was that when Tyler would do these launches there would be a lot of iconography that he didn't actually understand when I met him I would ask him I say why are they using this Greek goddess you know and he's like is that a Greek goddess it is indeed and they would use Latin and they would send it up into space really yeah and so he said that and by the way it wasn't medieval Latin which is a Catholic form of Latin a Roman Catholic form it was it was like first second

century type of Latin which is Roman Empire Latin you know what does this mean I don't know other than that I think that there's almost like a parallel type of religion that's happening well we have a ual friend Dr IA Whitley you introduced me to her new friend for me she's written about in your next book encounters which is Incredible Book right and I think what she talks about and writes about and deals with in her professional life is when you talk about space technology whether it's rocketry or anything else

it's so complicated and it's so hard to get right even SpaceX succeeded on its fourth attempt when it was on the verge of failure and bankruptcy and it was almost like a spiritual Reckoning that Elon had to go through where he put half his money in and almost failed and then it finally worked and that almost feels like the story again and again jack Parson's famously said after he read the golden Bow by JG Fraser he said uh I read that book and I realized science is a form of magic and not vice versa which no other scientist or engineer would

ever say but it's it humbled him so much making rocketry and so what somebody like IO Whitley deals with is once you've dotted all the eyes and and crossed all the tees the tech is so complex that if there's any sort of Mind matter interaction you have to get that right too in the case of space that's right and so she deals with like the the you know the mentality of of a fighter pile and McDonald Douglas which is an aerospace Corporation at washu in St

Louis had a paraschos space was definitely interested in parapsychology at some point yep and the dirty little secret about parapsychology is your internal State really dictates how good you are at the thing it's almost like the book of Acts with Jesus where you have to reach a certain level spiritually to to do well with it yeah so like your body's an instrument yeah and it and it begs this question because 2017 and on is When the UFO thing really started to become more popular and kind of in the zi since Leslie Kane wrote her article

with that so the thing is is that you know here you have in 2013 M you know I I began my study in 2012 do the normal academic search for the Space Program information immediately see how much is classified and that I can't do that and then think okay I can do field research right and I can learn from people which is you know your next best bet right and not that I'm trying to uncover anything to tell you the truth because I don't

actually care to tell you I mean honestly I didn't go in with any kind of an agenda yeah I just went in because I was curious and I saw that my former research basically you know my former research was basically on aerial phenomena in Catholic history but interpreted as angels and souls from purgatory yeah you know so I've been doing the research I just it was post 20th century and so then I recognized that it was still happening and I thought very interesting and so that's what got me interested in doing that but

I think this whole Focus I don't want to be conspiratorial but yeah this whole focus on nuts and bolts takes us away from what I found really to be the case and it sounds like they were interested in your work on so Joseph the Divine could levitate and much other kind of historical figures in in Catholic history that could literally levitate I remember one time I was talking with Hal put off and he said to me I was like going really deep on science and like you know uh vector and scaler potentials that the you know kind of a Quantum

field breaks down into and how that could you know be uh the the mechanism through which telepathy occurs you know whatever and he just I remember he cuts me off and he goes or it could be a medieval secret society that knows how to levitate and they put these metal capsules around them and I was like what like that was the weirdest thing he had ever said and I was and I just remember that forever like it was as if maybe the levitation history that that you know is is somehow tied in with uh yeah the UFO

actually about these very things about levitation in the past and levitation here now and um and looking at the data right yeah and so what's interesting and I have looked at so much data I mean I have the Joseph of copertino Records right yeah and been reading them and they're pretty intense and it's really difficult to read through the whole thing without coming away saying heck yeah that guy levitated right Joseph of copertino was a 17th century friend Franciscan frier that

would experience ecstatic Visions as a child and many people witnessed him levitating while participating in Mass he was deemed Holy by many of these Witnesses which the church thought was subversive eventually they imprisoned him in a small cell forbidding him to join any public gatherings in the community he had his own strict Protocols of aism only eating solid food twice a week and adding bitter powders to all his meals and so when I started to look back at some of the research data that I had

from my Catholic history stuff I started to notice the people who were the people who were said to have levitated or who received these miraculous interventions and things they seem to either be doing protocols or they were children or they were somehow childlike or had a childlike goodness about them and so I don't know I haven't concluded anything about this this is just very initial data collection Mar do you have anything let me see just something like in in the book

while I was listening that that that you keep coming back to is the idea that you can't take the context outside of the experience of the experiencer and and in a culture and in a and in a in a moment of time where we're so obsessed on you know a hyper indexing of data and collecting more and doing more it was very it was a fresh perspective to to really get to fully consider someone's full story and the circumstances that they come with for

why they might have had that experience that was more of a statement not a question where am I going but it actually helps me because I I was going to bring that up okay amazing so when we look at the history of uaps here in the states right okay we've got actually three Traditions research traditions we have the invisible tradition represented I would say by people like Alan highneck okay so they're in the intelligence community and there are things going on and there's research going on but it's

Hopkins he's looking at experiencers and then what we have is we have a fourth tradition all right and that fourth tradition has just Arisen in the last less than 10 years okay and I use myself as an example of it because you have somebody who stumbles upon something that I'd never thought to study but recognizes that I've been studying something similar to it if not it my entire life and meets this person named Tyler who's part of the first tradition

right the secret tradition and what happens is a collaboration and then a transparency that we've never seen before and so what do we call this fourth tra tradition okay what do we call this fourth tradition all right so what I've tried to do is I tried to say hm what kind of tradition would this be and I thought you know the strange thing about it let me actually talk about the context of it the research context we never talk about that what's the

what comes out of it is completely what people use the term emergence for you know something bigger than its parts because we're just these kind of parts that come together right and all of a sudden we work together and something comes out of it well that that I think brings us to a question which is like are we on the verge of an epistemological paradigm shift cuz I think about the invisible College which was jlen heck's group with jacqu Valle which is a tongue and- cheek reference to Robert Bo's invisible College which

was kind of at the start of the Enlightenment they would sort of study science which at the time was considered heretical and outside of the confin of the church it was dangerous and I think about how the enlightenment started and and there's a good book by Francis yeetes about sort of the rosac crucian roots of the Enlightenment and the invisible college is sort of a rosac crucian oh it totally is term and the goal of Rosicrucianism was sort of to marry the science and the spirit a lot of the early um Enlightenment proponents were also Alchemists and it feels like

we are now living in a time where science is you have kind of Richard Dawkins Sam Harris like very shrill kind of um Defenders of the materialist Paradigm and then you have kind of dogmatic religious fundamentalists and they have bifurcated or cleaved since the Enlightenment and now emergently they're coming together like the fact that a religious studies Professor is collaborating with the secret space program person he's a mission controller who's worked on all these missions since the Challenger in the ' 80s is wild and

so where where are we headed yeah well that's the thing so um I was trying to quantify it today you know so to kind of say well what can I lead people with and I thought that's probably not the best thing to do because I'm just a part the idea of disclosure uh as it's currently happening being a very Colonial concept because it assumes that it's like this new found like we're discovering this for the first time I think when we are trying when we try to reduce things so much to like the observables that we can

write in these specific formats and we and now and we think that the human the human account of a story is the weakest I mean we Johnny Harris is really like the weakest scientific measurement is when you actually rely the human story and I'm like but what else do we have yeah so uh yeah that part was F I had never heard that perspective and it clicked it clicked so well a reflection I I know that's what I so that's part of also the reason that I wrote it was that disclosure can only happen because the

US government has the information right exactly and it's like really and that but you talk to other countries and you talk to people in um Native American tribes exactly yeah AB original Australians indigenous Australian tribes and they've had they even even have these you know different initiation Ceremonies for it just like you and I talked about the merba tradition you know and so yeah so I just wanted to put a light on that just to kind of I don't think I could ever balance out that that

discourse that's happening now but I wanted to put it out there there is some hubis in saying we are now going through disclosure or whatever and it it is what frustrates me about the sometimes the super anti UFO people and often the anti- people UFO people like were super pro UFO like it's two sides of the same coin and it's like you're relying too much on the Intel Community like CU sometimes people will come after me because I I interview people in that world or whatever and I'm like they could flip tomorrow and it wouldn't change my belief in this stuff because I

know there's so much outside of what they're talking about and maybe there are ways in which the government is spinning things but like I don't care there's so much open-source knowledge you're over relying on the government in studying this and I think encounters is a really great kind of comprehensive overview of how you can study this outside of official channels do you ever get skeptical when you hear like when we the biologics thing messes with me and it messes you know sometimes it's I do think this is It's the interesting thing

right that people are now doing with DMT right kind of interesting to me you know maybe there are these things in these other dimensions that are like if two people sit down and they're taking you know DMT or they're doing and they have the same experience but they don't talk to each other like what's going on this is like Andrew gallamore and the Imperial College and stuff they're sort of mapping the the spirit world and then it's really interesting I mean it's interesting as long as you don't become literally a Believer well do you think any of these things are walking Among Us

he came to the United States and he could believe that we didn't have any belief in this at all when he would see things like that when he was there okay and um okay so what do I think about that there are things we don't quite about well there's so many things we don't understand I mean what am I going to say it's like there's the these kinds of questions I don't think I could say publicly well I tend to think human biology is fairly what what always interests me is the variance of humans

like I meet certain people and I'm like you are on some other thing and then I tend to think in a lot of these cases I'm like but you're you bleed real blood you're just like the line you bleed normal blood and you you go to the bathroom and you know you your body functions in a biologically human way but you are sort of very tapped into something else okay so there's a couple stuff and this is my non-public research yeah so I can't actually talk about it but I can answer your question if you want okay all right so when I'm doing

I've done some research with people who talk about either mediumship or or even possession and what you find is that the the boy who was at the basis that he was his story was used for The Exorcist the first Exorcist movie uh who then turned out to be like an aerospace engineer I guess did you hear about that that boy I know yeah he grew up to be like an aerospace engineer whoa yeah yeah I worked for NASA I think crazy okay so listen though is that while after you know because it took a while for him to

get deposed apparently okay so this is the story but afterwards there would he had he went to the bathroom a lot he urinated like tons and tons and tons and tons so much that people are like how are you even it's not even possible okay well you also see this with other kinds of like mediumship and and things like that so something is happening physiologically to them and I don't know what it is but it has to do with water and hydration hydration yeah well I could I did you know the memory of water

stuff out of Jaan so it's like maybe water holds more semantic content than we than we realize or something but I I had a like an experience at Skinwalker Ranch I smelled sulfur there yes and that's right it's common common it's a sign of like the devil and and I proceeded to have the worst month of my life and then at the end of the month I felt like I was saved by God like God swooped in and saved me and I pray I prayed the the whole mon it was horrible like every day like some gnarly weird

like in a dark energy Vortex and it I and there's on camera there's a video of me just candidly being like I smelled something weird and it smells like sulfur it smelled like the sulfur or whatever oh really you know that's I this right no so this is a hydrogen sulfate gas monitor yeah and because you know like in mines and things like that that gas people smell the sulfur smell beforeand so I wear this so that if someone says that they smell something like that we know whether it's really

gas or if it's something happening up here cuz people that have had instances is anything coming up okay so like what is that are we s in a soup of this stuff like it's it's kind of yeah yeah so I guess that I guess that's the sobering moment right the sobering moment is to recognize that it's it's a real kind of phenomenon is that why it's being hidden from us like sometimes I think Carl Sean who grew up writing about UFOs in his diary and would debate with his mentor all the

time about them and then somehow flipped into being super anti- UFO you know him writing the demon Haunted World I think of that as somewhat of a double on Tandra and like maybe it's like the world is haunted by demons literally yeah and then it's like the screw tape letters you have to be like very hypervigilant about following The Godly path whatever that is and like ending them off cuz you have like wormwood and screw tape and you know a bunch of bad entities well I think that we can safely say that evil is real evil is very real

cuz look we have human trafficking and things like that these are evil but we're talking about like Supernatural evil yeah because you know the human trafficking is human evil right but we're talking about something called Supernatural evil so it's another category of evil that we're talking about and I think when you get into the UFO scenario you know when you start to to go into the communities and you're you know a little bit self-aware you know it it does that thing that you explained earlier you know it's like a forcing function yes and it causes you

to see the reality of things that we weren't taught to believe in because we live in a fairly secular society even if we're religious we're still SEC secular right so it's like the re-enchantment of the world like it really is are we on the verge of a paradigm shift a re-enchantment of of the world a breakdown of the cold scientific Paradigm that's run its course science has become the pervasive mythology of our time it has a founding myth the big bang a miraculous event for which we don't really have too many plausible

causal explanations a teolog of primitive to progress Evolution which makes us feel safe and rituals that involve lab codes speakers and microscopes to gain deeper access to the secrets of the universe in other words it has all of the elements of a religion yes scientific breakthroughs require domain expertise hard work time and diligence but then there's a final step that no one can dissect involving spontaneous Revelation whether that's Einstein constructing the photoelectric effect while bored at his Swiss patent

desk Wolf Gang poy dreaming up the architecture of the hydrogen atom Heisenberg at helgoland or dck staring at the fire in Cambridge this last revelational step of science is inexplicable and irreducible and it seems a lot like what we used to call divine inspiration so what drives these epistemological shifts that seem to occur for mankind throughout history well in her latest book called encounters Diana writes that she refrained from teaching her students one thing about Plato's Cave allegory the

existence of the Puppet Masters who's controlling the Shadows on the cave wall we see who's dropping the monolith and manipulating our let's talk about Simone yes okay so Simone's in in the book I have a chapter devoted to her she does believe that we're living in a time of a revelation literally though and what is being revealed is that we is AI and AI she

thinks is hopeful because it will take the power out of a group that has had it for a very long time and distributed it's kind of like another French Revolution but a definitive depending on how it goes it could be like the Gutenberg Press or and it's subversive or it could be you know Biden just came out with regulations around it and there are a few companies that feel like they're really on the frontier of I think AGI is overhyped in BS but like you know the harder core research and

then you have the CCP using AI for draconian 1984 like purposes and so I I do think it could go either way it's like up to us like history is being written all the UFOs are similar these sort of like generic templates like AI UFOs and it's almost like this Golem like thing that we're actively creating and they can be evil or they can and totalitarian or they can be good and personally see this is where I kind of differ okay Jess let's get into it yeah okay so the how I differ is I don't

think it's up to us the only thing that's up to us is our personal salvation ah I love that totally and when I say personal salvation I'm not talking about that in a strictly Christian way I'm talking like about that in a human way every every one of us has we you know what that means right when I say that we're all implicated every one of us and and that's necessary now totally necessary like you said that's why I like your idea of the forcing function of the UFO and AI yes

and so that's good yeah yeah yeah well worshiping them is bad both oh of course like I I met I interviewed the Google engineer that left because he thought that Lambda was or whatever and I came away thinking cuz I actually worked in AI at Google before getting my job yeah yeah yeah and I came away and I always was cynical about the AGI narrative the idea that we'll have some hard takeoff and artificial general intelligence will realize that human meat space is like not being used efficiently and like kill

us all or whatever I just always was kind of cynical about that and I think it's mostly statistics on steroid and not sensient not actually conscious but I came away from that interview being shocked at his belief and like I couldn't argue with his belief and some people might think that my own belief in UFOs is similar or something and so I was like the whether or not the AI is conscious or not the the sociological um repercussions of people imping Consciousness yes on the AI that is

going to be drastic and massive yes the same with the yeah exactly exactly yes I totally you sound like a religious study scholar you know you're doing the meta look at it instead of like you know just taking it at face value like the belief in it is the issue it doesn't matter whether it's real or not right well and then if you have a Paras pychological worldview where belief is fundamental then all of a sudden you know that's a false dichotomy and that's like the most powerful thing what humans believe or if

you're a follower of PL belief is somehow just Central to where Society goes and what happens but the thing that we're asking now is you know at the at this time in human history I think that we need to see ourselves how do how you know the Greek would be like noesis knowledge of your primordial Soul how do you there's clearly no you know formula well there kind of is and what is it it's like self-examination yes it's like how do you feel now why do you feel that

way yeah you know somebody comes into your space are they in need you know oh what are you going to do about it kind of thing like that like these are the kinds of things that um that we just need to we need to pay attention to us and like I said the UFO is probably out there to to get us out of our program so we can actually do some self-examination how do you feel now pretty awesome me too

mental stru structures the the Western mind so to speak which is now permeating the whole earth in its materialist philosophy the way you do it is you take something that's supposed to be in the spirit world because even in the west we can make allowance for the spirit world and we can study it through mythology through religion through imagination through poetry but the one unforgivable sin to the Western mind is when something that should be in the spirit