The Man Involved In Every American Conspiracy

this interview it's absolutely crazy do you think that the CIA killed JFK I do know who did kill him Oswald could not have gotten off the number of shots this interview is an endless Wellspring of mind-blowing facts from Danny that the that the craft have built into it some kind of an AI capacity to respond telepathically to the control of the of the pilot that's the key to it all from American industrialists and financiers secretly funding the Nazis before World War II so that they wanted Hitler to establish this kind of fascist government the economic theory of which is you

the Internet with personal data on millions of American civilians these sites get their information from sketchy data brokers who collect and sell detailed profiles of your online activity your phone number home address family details even your financial information this is where incog steps in they make it super simple to remove your data from these online Brokers and keep it removed I did it and the drop off of weird calls and texts is astounding and as bad as these annoying spam calls and texts you may experience are they're nowhere close to the most extreme dangers posed by

these Brokers this data can be used for identity theft or even somebody showing up at your home if they have it out for you if you value your privacy you'll want to check out incog use this discount code on the screen American Alchemy to get a huge 60% discount off their annual subscription check the link in the description below exercise your basic personal online hygiene and take control of your personal data here with my new friend Danny shean who knows probably more about every American

conspiracy than anybody I know part partly because you were involved in half of them as a public investigator and kind of people's Advocate uh whether it was Watergate or Karen silkwood uh uh now you represent a lot of the UFO whistleblowers Steven Greer Lou alzando uh uh John Mack before that who was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry department and studied alien abductions for the last 10 years of his career so it's an honor to have you and I'm excited to have I think we're going to have a pretty crazy conversation and terrific why don't we start actually with UFOs

I think uh they're sort of very in the Zeitgeist right now but I think a lot of people in the UFO closure World feel very frustrated because last year you have David grush from the national geospatial agency coming out blowing the whistle and you know literally a year ago August of uh 23 saying in front of Congress that we've had July July 26th July 26 that's right okay good good good uh that's amazing good memory uh saying that we have had a legacy reverse engineering programs

of the intelligence community monheim and and yet nothing's you know not a lot has happened since and I'm I'm friends with grush and I I do trust him and I think there's a there's a lot going on there behind the scenes but yeah what's your what's your take overall and where we're at there's a lot going on behind the scenes M uh is the answer and and one of one of the things that PE people whove worked in Washington DC for 20 years or more realize that the the public hearings that take place in the Congress are kind dog and pony shows uh and that you know they they're semis

scripted as a rule there's a decision made on high as to what's going to get said publicly and what isn't what questions are going to get asked and what aren't uh and so that there's there's a bit of theater involved more than a bit of theater involved uh what's going on in the background is is the real deal making and the the challenge in Washington DC among many others is that everything is a deal everything is a negotiation you know so if you know if the Republican Party proposes you

know $10 billion for a particular program the you know Democratic party you know proposes 8 billion for the same program you know ahead of time it's going to come out to 9 billion uh because it's not a matter of principle it's not a matter of you know what the program needs it's a question of the the kind of false dialectic that's going on so you have to get used to that to begin with uh and now now we've come into into the scene with the UFO phenomenon uh and that there have been a number of passes at this in the in the history but what's happened is since the one that everybody

knows about is the December 17th of 2017 the front page story in the New York Times uh Lou alzando and Chris melon you know and Chris melon very importantly was the deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence uh both under the Clinton Administration and under the bush W Bush Administration so he's kind of a bipartisan uh you know melon Family Guy and uh and Lou

alzando was involved in the program uh that the Pentagon had a secret program uh Above Top Secret the the real elements of the program where they were attempting to develop a weapon system and Advanced weapon system uh using the technology that they'd recovered from UFO craft uh and the thing that people don't realize it was this big hubhub you know with the front page story in the New York Times and everybody's saying oh here's two amazing whistleblowers have come out of the

shadows and they've come forward and they've uh made this extraordinary set of uh Revelations about the existence of this secret program uh and it turns out the whole thing was authorized I mean that the the United States defense department uh office of pre-publication review and security had cleared all of those videos to be shown and had okayed the New York Times to publish them uh and so there's this whole backstory going on that uh that there's a pretense of kind of a a uh

say they say you know we have a lot better stuff you know and so so it's clearly almost like a roar shock test like or conditioning or something it's like how how are people going to sort of react and then maybe we'll go a little farther in a couple years and then maybe we'll go even farther well you you have to be careful because you can start speculating about what's going on there in the background I don't know it's hard well what what I've done that I got contacted by Lou alzando himself uh right after this happened well for the context for the audience if you don't know anything about UFOs Lou alzando ran an a tip these programs from 2007 to 2012 he also was

place under Bigalow and on Skinwalker Ranch so okay Lou Alando approach now you blown out the whole audience nobody knows what we're talking about so so the the I have the same uh autistic compulsory you know attention to detail that you do yeah well the the the the bottom line is that what's happened is that for some reason yeah which we can explore but but for some reason there's been a decision that was made you know in 2017 at the very end of 2017 to come forward uh to begin

a process of trying to establish control literally over the disclosure of the UFO information uh and it actually generated uh an extraordinary uh piece of legislation that the United States Senate uh approved uh that was uh a 64 page bill that set up this complex process of undertaking a controlled disclosure uh and actually formulating a controlled disclosure campaign to go over a

declaring eminent domain over non-human craft that's in possession of these you know private aerospace companies and it ends up kind of dying on the vine because of Mike Johnson well not really though but but that's the impression that again people it got diluted it got passed but in a very what happened what happened is that one of the most important aspects of the bill did get passed and that is ordering here's the Congress of the United States both the the Senate and House signed by the president ordering all six of the United States military services you

know the Army Air Force Navy you know the space force all of them all of them uh and all 18 of the United States intelligence agencies there's a lot more than just the CIA uh in the defense intelligence agency in the NSA there's there's 18 of them right and then there's 32 United States defense department agencies all of them were ordered by Congress and the president to to take 300 days to gather together all every single piece of information that they had about the UFO

phenomenon and about any nonhuman intelligence that was understood to be responsible for the UFO phenomenon gather it all together put it into digital format with an index so that it's recoverable and searchable uh and have it ready by October 20th of 2024 to be turned over the Senate Bill said immediately to the the National Archives uh that got changed uh in the house but only in a

minor way in which they said they were to turn it over as soon as possible after having it compiled but that whole process uh was extraordinarily important uh and it was a key portion of the bill that the Senate passed and that got passed by Congress that is the law right now so that whole process is going on right now so so so the bottom line is that piece got passed you know the big thing in the Senate bill that did not get passed was the creation of an independent panel

uh there was a board of review that the senate had proposed that' be an independent board of review that got to look through all of this information uh and decide how much of it is going to be made public okay and they put in a provision that the president of the United States could personally postpone the public revelation of any piece of information that the board chose to make public uh but that that was a big piece that was cut out they they didn't the the house didn't agree

to allow an independent panel to review all of this information uh and decide how much is going to be made public so that the information has to be gathered together and made available in the National Archives but then it doesn't necessarily have to go anywhere that's where we are right now but the Senate the Senate intelligence committee people and the house intelligence committee people will get to see it and that's key thing you know to get to get the the Congress briefed in on what

it is that the executive branch has been doing all of these years since the last 80 years basically it it goes back to basically January 1st of 1945 is the actual operative date in the statute every piece of information every phone call every memo every internal study uh every report of a UFO sighting every single piece of information that they have has to be be put into this compendium so that's happening that's happening right now that's amazing and that will that be public or that was

going to be question as as of right now uh the the operative order of the Senate was that it had to be turned over immediately on October 20th to the National Archives and be made available to the members of the intelligence committee okay the house has changed that language to be made available as soon as possible which is a a wiggle wiggle phrase you know the question is how quickly are they going to turn it over uh but they have to have it compiled by October 20th so that's the law right now and a lot of people even in the UFO Community just think oh the the law

commit chair of the house intelligence committee but also represents Dayton Ohio which is where right Patterson Air Force Base is all the UFO rumors are centered around right Patterson Air Force Base of them holding kind of craft and his top three donors are I think locked you know I don't I don't want to mess up the other two but two other big aerospace companies and uh you know he works through Mike Johnson to kind of uh take that out of tumor that's right and so I find that interesting where do you think a company like lockie Martin uh actually see like how do you

think they see the UFO thing because they see it as a profit making potential profit there's no doubt about how they see it well Ben Rich who's the president of Skunk Works their most secretive division used to call UFOs unfunded opportunities and then 201 you know theying with tomong who's the Blink 182 FR and you have Rob Weiss who is you know Ben Rich's uh successor at Skunk Works and emails between him and Tom dong that were revealed through Wikileaks where it's clear

that locked wants to like talk more about the UFO you know uh phenomena but then they work through a guy like Mike Turner later you know last year to kill this bill so that that feels a little SK they sort of want to do it on their own terms or they they they just they want to get they want to get Congress to know enough about it which they don't yet uh to agree to set up a law that authorizes them to get patent rights that's what they want they want to get patent rights uh to the

technology so that the United States government for the next thousand years when it wants to have access to to any of the technology of the UFOs for super luminal flight or anti-gravity stuff is going to have to license it from from the private company and pay them a ton of money for it I mean it's just absolutely you know it's just avarice and greed you know got it so that makes sense so they want like a broader public knowledge or Surface area on the topic but they don't want any of their IP taken out of the company that's right yeah I mean that that makesense they want

to make as much money as possible on it and and here here we have a an event taking place of the the World getting ready to be made aware of the fact uh that there's this hum humongous uh other civilization uh around us in the in our galaxy what's the evidence that it's extraterrestrial and not some time traveler or like the fact the fact that uh people have been face to face with them uh and had telepathic Communications sure but sure but for every one that says they're from Zeta

reticuli they also say they're from the future and they're also super deceptive and say all sorts of other crazy stuff those are people in the UFO Community who say all that they kind of make up stuff you know but the but the fact of the matter is it's it's just as plain as day no but I mean if you look at the Edgar Mitchell datab any of the databases around this stuff I actually think it's split like I don't think it's clear that they're from another planet in fact if we there's one homed uh species on Earth that's sensient up right by pedal that has advanced technology and it's

us and there are 20 billion earthlike planets in the Milky Way galaxy but they're over a trillion non-e earthlike planets so and we're seeing a thing that looks like us yeah they're hominid so the likelihood of evolutionary convergence on a totally foreign planet is just super super slim and so the aam's razor explanation would actually be that there's something emanating from they're they're sort of related to Mankind and they could be Interstellar they could be a different timeline interacting with us I just think we have to uh widen aperture of possibilities oh yeah no no

I mean they're but not to the point of just obfuscating obvious sure you know the yeah there's a thing there's a phenomena but I do think it's called the phenomena for a reason because it's sort of really hard to classify it's because the the conversation that you're talking about now uh has has assiduously excluded all the evidence of face-to-face contact that people have had I mean there are thousands of people who've had face to face contact in tele in telepathic

Communications with the actual occupants of The Craft which there's this huge effort to kind of pretend that isn't true like that isn't true because there aren't enough government circled people in scientific Community people who've affirmed it yet well that's a good segue into the first UFO related person you represented is John Mack right and John Mack was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry department and I think he U through his friend Bud Hopkins his childhood friend right started to see all these cases these these people who no mental health history right uh

it wasn't even always through hypnotic regressions they would just say I had these experiences where I was abducted by you know these aliens and he started to take it very seriously and so yeah what what what do you think about John Mack and his investigations well I I represented him for 10 years uh and uh met dozens of people uh that he had worked with uh was involved in vetting them to determine which ones were credible and which ones weren't uh what detailed information they had uh and uh have talked to you know several absolutely totally credible witnesses

that I could put in front of any American Jury uh and the jury would be absolutely clear that they were telling them the truth that who have had Direct face-to-face contact with uh one or more of these extraterrestrial beings you know they have them in American Underground military bases they have the beings they have the beings so they've interviewed the beings I've talked to people who were there when they were interviewing the being where where are the beings being that particular one was at S4 in Area 51 in outside of area 5 about 11 miles away so I would totally distrust

came into him after a number of years they they shared certain kind of religious views uh he with a commander uh and uh the commander came in and told him that he was going to be going to Area 51 and wanted him to come with him uh as the clerk typus just to kind of monitor what they were doing so they went to Area 51 they got taken to S4 uh went down a number of flights down at S4 and they came to this area where there was this a a big room with a two-way mirror in it and there

people that were there Staffing the area they showed him they they had these uh card files uh where they had been interviewing uh the being voluntarily uh and he was answering questions that they had and one of the questions was you know where do you come from uh and he said that he was part of a a group of beings that were from different star systems in our galaxy uh and that they were part of a a team that were going around inside the Galaxy look checking on places where

life had actually begun on different planets and they were sort of monitoring where what they were doing uh and they they asked the followup question they say well what who's in charge of that who what kind of they didn't say it this way but what kind of juridical entity you know is there that's coordinating this kind of a thing and he said well uh uh you you people would refer to it as God but it's very different from what you think that's what he said and so they spec they specifically

said that they were from different star systems and different planets inside our galaxy uh and there he was did he go more into the God thing how it's different than he did that's all that's what he told me and that he wanted to he wanted to share that with me and he said that uh he didn't believe him uh he didn't believe it because he thought he was demonic uh and therefore he wasn't ever going he never told anybody about this in his life and he was dying so he wanted to tell me that this had happened this is this guy was on his deathbed yeah really what's his name his name is

uh Albert ber Stein Albert Stein he was a he was a CL typus US Army clerk typus assigned to Blue Book to this special division of blue book that was investigating the the uh 700 that's absolutely insane do you have a a video of you talking to him that no that uh I I just he just wanted to come have me come and see him so I went and S and talked to him do you have do you have other deathbed confessions like that no okay no I I have I've have interviews that I've done with people

live people who've had different kind of encounter exper you know both for example also you know um barbar lamb you know Barbara lamb no Barbara lamb is a was an associate of of John Max okay uh and she's a professional psychologist uh and she had a practice of kind of helping people who had had these kind of traumatic experiences of thinking at least that they'd had a direct encounter with a landed UFO that was on the ground that they would have a direct contact experience with the

occupants uh and most people find that fairly traumatic yeah uh and uh and so she ended up counseling dozens and dozens of people over a 50e she's like 90 years old she just became 90 years old and uh she's she's provided to us her archives of all the recordings of different people that she has had sessions with right and and so after all these years 50 years of interviewing dozens of

a world where like it's actually seen as somewhat conventional to believe in at least the phenomena itself do you have any sort of really contrarian takes on how this stuff works or no the the what what I what I do believe uh is that it has an awful lot to do with Consciousness yeah that they're monitoring us trying to gauge our state of evolution of Consciousness yeah because that's a very big deal yeah to them yeah I AG uh you know they they use it to to drive their craft

there I mean obviously it pops up in Skin Walkers at the Pentagon that they're studying it you know as part of a tip and assap or whatever but like that to me is small fish you know it's not a lot of money no it's it's a big deal uh in that you know when you know what they accomplished in that program which they're lying about to everybody say oh well you know didn't get very far they couldn't they kind of shut it down so what do you think they actually accomplish well I'll I'll give you an example yeah uh because i' I've read the whole file on it or you just talking about like

Joseph mcmonagle no I'm talking about Pat price okay what what what happened with Pat price again Pat price uh was such an accomplished remote viewer yeah uh that they they actually he got he got to a point where they this one particular thing and the reason I saw this parenthetically is that I was asked to be the attorney for Elon hubard you were in the Church of Scientology no way so how how would you connect Scientology and remote viewing I mean I know how put off

was Scientologist for some time but H put off was and uh and so was Pat price and so was Ino swan mhm were highle clears of the Church of Scientology the FBI and the justice department in New York subpoenaed the top 10 people in the Church of Scientology in New York and ordered them to come in front of a grand jury and they were going to be interrogating them in front of the grand jury they called me again and I went up to New York CU I'm admitted in the southern district and I got an injunction shutting them down so they couldn't do that because it was totally unconstitutional again uh and so they were so sort of inured of me they that they talked with Ron hub

R hover wanted to have me be the lawyer for them you know with him and his wife Susan uh you know against the IRS that whole thing they were doing so I said that look I wouldn't even meet with Ron hubard unless there was a condition precedent that I could be given access to every single document anywhere in the world uh in the internal files of the Church of Scientology I figur that was a real non-starter right yeah of course and uh within a week they came back and said it's a deal what do you want to see and so I could query anybody's eer results anything I could get anything I wanted

and so uh they flew me down to uh to uh Florida uh and the big blue cube they've got down there this big huge blue building uh and uh so I go in and there's the head of the Guardians office us Guardians office and the international head of the Guardians you know out of the UK uh and they say said so what do you want to see and I said uh well first what I want to see is the file you got on me mhm and the American guy said no why no we've got I don't no and I said excuse me I

said what do you think I fell off some melon wagon somewhere I said you know you're going to have me to be Elon hub's attorney you don't have any file on me at all in the international guy says go get him the file you know so they bring me the file I'm going through how deep was it how much stuff did they have well they had they had you know I me pictur pictures of me what what I you know I was at I was a Jesuit candidate I was at the headquarters you know they would follow me around they showed me in different restaurants you know and meeting with people you know Mark Lane and some of the other guys you know they so Mark Lane he was like uh Kennedy assassination investig yeah

yeah rushed judgment he was the author of that you know so you know they had all these kind of things and so I said okay good I just wanted to make sure that it was that it was accurate you know and then so the international guy says to me say okay so what else do you want to see I said I want to see the three most sensitive files in the entire world according to you as the head of the Guardians office you know and he just went oh [ __ ] he said I said so so either you get him or not you know so he gets up and he gone and Rees around comes back and he ends up uh laying one of the the files in

front of me uh and I started looking at it and it was all reports by Ingo Swan Ingo Swan was filing reports with a head Guardian office in in UK about the entire internal operations of the Office of Naval intelligence uh remote viewing program that they were doing he was just giving them all the information and so he was a spy or something yeah he was a spy for the Church of Scientology over and against the Office of Naval intelligence why would he do that because he was a high level clearer that was his loyalty group his loyal he was he was loyal to

them prior to that's right that's right over and above over I I always thought put off was like looking into that stuff cuz he was like an NSA guy before he was a Scientology guy so I thought off was just like tasked to like looking into this you know very uh you know uh parag governmental intelligence organization that is Scientology that's seen as a threat and so you know put get put off in there no this was a I mean the the Church of Scientology you're not aware of it that their highest principle yeah in the Church of Scientology is all to do with UFOs really

saying that there's a remote viewing program that was deeper than St Target cuz that wasn't Office of Naval intelligence that was Dia after CIA what no this this was AO and Pat price some idea how deep this goes Pat price you know they had the file inos Swan had the file that Pat price had gotten so good remote viewing that they assigned him uh a task of they gave him the exact longitude and latitude down to the minute and second of a location uh and he was assigned an artist so that he didn't have to do these hen scratches trying to P show it but he was and he was saying you

know I uh so what's there so there's this major building here uhhuh and there's big big fence up with razor wire on the top of it and everything and his facilitator uhuh uh was was uh uh Russell tar uhhuh and so Russell was saying okay now can can you get inside the fence can you see anything inside the fence he goes yeah okay uh all right yeah I can I can see inside the fence and there's just this snow man's land there can you get to the front door of this place and he said all

right he said okay all right I got it yeah okay I'm in front of the front door he said can you go inside the building he said uh let me see here uh okay yeah yeah I can see I can see inside the building here he said so what do you see say this big long hallway uh there's some doors on both sides and Russell said now go go down to the third door on the left uh he said okay said can you go into the room yeah I can go into the room so what do you see well there's big desk there and chairs

and stuff there's a big file cabinet over in the right corner over here go over to the file cabinet F goes over the file cabinet there said second drawer first file read it to him and he did what was it well that's not the point the point is that he did it yeah and he can do it you know and it turns out it's an American facility it's a top CIA security facility that's insane then so so anybody with remote viewing skills can get the nuclear codes not not anybody but Pat price could the

best so that's Pat Price Right M and in the same file it points out that Pat price had actually evolved to the point where they could take a full photograph of a boomer class Russian submarine nuclear submarine and show it to him and say where is it right now and he would give them right down to the exact longitude and latitude down to the minute and second of exactly where that is uh and he visualized the whole thing and told him exactly where it was but there was a huge

UFO right over the top of the water where that thing was and it was tracking it and monitoring it and he had it in the file you know I'm going whoa I said this is uh this is pretty pretty wild uh and uh then I I said okay so uh what else have you got you know he says well here and he said I said show me the show me the second file they showed me the second file and it was again from ingos Swan it was a deep inside report from inos Swan that they had taken Pat price uh in the

program up to Southern Canada south central Canada just north of the state of Michigan uh and uh he was in he brought to this little facility was like this little domed little building uh and it had these big huge uh dishes on top of these community vacation dishes on top and they brought him in and they set him down uh and they put this helmet on him uh and they had him think uh a particular message and they turned all the D the big antenna down to the northern Peninsula

of Michigan that little section that's in there and had him being telepathically projecting you know when it comes time for you to file your your national uh your US income tax forms next year file them in this little post office box down this little town down in West Virginia and 85% of the people did it next year no way absolutely way that's insane it's you keep saying

that so you're saying you're saying that you're saying Scientology had some sort of Mind Mass mind control it wasn't the Church of Scientology what was it this this was the program the program The Office of naal Intelligence this was the program but that's that's like the implications of that are crazy would no they're profound yeah not quite quite crazy well it's crazy do you think that there is a part of our government that interacts systematically with this other life form because

like if you watch the movie contact you know Jody Foster walks into the you know this uh uh plane and it's almost like the implication is this this guy who's been like kind of tracking her but he's part of this strata of the world that's just very elite and he kind of interfaces multibillionaire guy multi-billionaire guy do you think that that is the case in in our world i' I'd put it a little bit differently yeah I have no doubt whatsoever no doubt whatso zero doubt that there's

an element uh inside our government structures uh that is part of the intelligence Community as part of the military that have direct knowledge about the existence of these extraterrestrial beings that are here on the planet but are they systematically in touch with them like do we have treaties or agreements or that's that's a question of degree now the question then would be is that in light of the fact that they know that they're here that it would be almost impossible to believe

that they hadn't made efforts to have some kind of communication with them sure they aren't going to just let them sit there take that a step further though and say that we've made agreements well it's you have to take it one step at a time that that I think that that they clearly would have made the effort to have communication with them so the next question you have to ask is is it reasonable to believe that the beings would have communicated with them at all uh there does seem to be some sort of a tacit understanding that they have uh about being able to coexist in some way

uh whereby the United States government isn't going to just run out and say oh everybody there's being from another system you know star system here on our planet you know so they obviously have got some sort of uh protocol established here where they're not going to be revealing it and the beings themselves are not just going to land on in Central Park and tell everybody why do you think the UFO stuff needs to come out is there a forcing function because I go back and forth myself where you know I think actually people who um know me well uh are surprised that like I'm as

skeptical as I am even though like I do all these interviews or whatever where it just feels like a lot of the thinking is really lazy and poor you know we talked earlier about the example of like you know there just so many scops and stuff I was sitting in the UFO hearing and I was just like these people don't know anything like like honestly I I had two thoughts simultaneously one is I'm so moved that this is happening this is amazing this is a watershed moment and then on the other hand if you wanted to pull off a scop on these people on like the government itself

on the on the civilian government it would be easy because they have no idea you know they're getting spoonfed all sorts of stuff I actually was with a friend yesterday who uh told me and I'll keep him anonymous but he he's a a prominent professor at a you know a pretty well-respected University who looks at this stuff kind of behind the scenes the UFO stuff and he was talking about uh evidence given to a congressional staffer Congressional staffer gave it to him and some of his hardcore ufologist friends and they were like oh this is a this is a hoax from 30 years ago and

the staffer went pale in the face because he was so sure that you know he was given this stuff in in a classified setting in a skiff as if it was real yeah and so this is like kind of crazy so so you got your finger right on it right now Jesse is that is the the level of non-competent yeah on the part of all human beings all organizations you know is is more than their image they project yes you know that they've got a whole marketing thing of you know here's who we are how effective we are how perfect we are Etc and but if you really become more and more familiar with the details of

it you really realize that there are all kinds of vulnerabilities that that organization had the thing that actually makes me think there's a there there is there like a lot of pretty serious people involved you know I'm I've become decently close with Carl Nell and like I I I consider grush a really good friend at this point sure and it's like these guys are pretty hardcore guy they're very knowledgeable and it's like a big waste of Human Resources if it's just a scop and so the question is is there some sort of forcing function that is causing the program itself to

allow some of these defectors oh out because they realize this thing is bursting at the seams and they need to get in front of it or something and so it's a good start it's a good start yeah well what do you think because my belief is like I I I take it face value and fully trust David grush when he says that he sort of stumbled upon this stuff and then where I think people are maybe a little naive and I kind of hinted at this in my interview with with grush is like the whatever the defection is from the internal program has to be somewhat coordinated these people have no

immunity because they haven't come out and so like the idea that they don't have some authoritative opice under which they're operating you know they they'd all be dead if if they weren't and so there's there's some somebody somewhat in charge in whatever programs that do exist you know has has they've said you can you can come out to this degree that that would be my mental mod control disclosure that's the key to it all and so and then the question is are we just seeing the tip of the iceberg and the tip of the iceberg looks nothing like the bottom of the iceberg or

does the tip of the iceberg resemble the bottom of the iceberg so we're getting a snapshot of what we knew maybe in the late 40s or early 50s and we're getting some sense of Greater enological truth and it's just you know kind of we're get we're working our way down into into some core truth I can see all these little 3x5 cards going up on the wall you know that you you're kind of laying them out here here's the possibilities there's this this it's all true you got to get them all up in front of you and all the things that you're saying are things that that Merit exploration MH you

uh and some of them are internally and self-referentially consistent some of them aren't you know so that you can drop some of them down into different baskets that are consistent with each other that's how you go about doing this yeah you know uh uh in that uh obviously I've thought about all these things yeah you know and representing Lou and in talking with Carl and talking with David and you know in discussing these things with them you know but I keep I I consistently refuse to get a security clearance yeah I will not do that yeah because then whatever

I know about they're going to try to say I must have gotten it through the security clearance and then I can't tell anybody right you know so I'm not going to do that yeah and and I I know more than a lot of them do you're a Harvard trained psychiatrist or a professor of Psychiatry at Harvard to be exact I admire John Mack a lot he seemed like a very Earnest good guy what do you think his mission was at the end of his life like do you think it was just to kind of destigmatize things for kind of the uh you know victims or abductees in these cases or or or or was it to

spread some sort of new worldview that he had or well he had he had at least two different missions you know he was running the peer group the project for Extraordinary experience research uh and that I was legal counsel for the group uh that was where I got to meet lots of experiencers and help vet those people uh and John and I had both decided more or less at my suggestion actually as it turns out uh to try to train them mhm that if they're going to get repeatedly abducted you know why don't we train them to do holotropic breathing and just stay calm when it starts to happen and

then question the ET people and and we'll give you a sets of questions to get information from them you so that we can start getting direct line have like a diplomatic reach out to these people did they get anything interesting no what it was is that uh she study car on was she she was furious at the the UFO people because she'd been abducted uh and then when after she hadd been returned and couldn't remember exactly what happened she found that she was pregnant and she hadn't been with anybody for like over a year she couldn't understand what

was going on uh and she was pregnant went all the way through to the end of the first trimester uh and she was going to the obti and and getting she couldn't figure out what was going on uh and then she gets abducted again and she's not pregnant anymore and uh and she was just furious about this about what they were doing with her so when I they would show up again she would actually throw things at them she would like throw lamps at them and you know kick them and and and throwing things

at them and she was outraged at these guys right uh and uh and she was one of the people that John was was interviewing she came to to work with John so we agreed she's one a good candidate to kind of get her trained to get her to come down and do all that and we did that uh and she the next time it started happening she used to say her like the hair would kind of start to stand up on her arms and she could get this weird feeling that it was getting ready to happen again so she could tell and so she started doing the holotropic breathing and so these three little dudes show up

you know in her living room they brought her onto the craft you know totally conscious now about it and they have her have to take off all of her clothes and get in this pool this kind of like pool filled with this kind of gelatin kind of weird aqua colored gelatin stuff and she'd get in and she had to breathe it in and fill her lungs up with it uh and stay under there for a while and and it was a very weird experience yeah and then they bring her to this other place she didn't they they took her off the craft and brought her to the she couldn't she didn't see the environment she

didn't see what was going on Outdoors but and and there was this little hybrid uh like 2-year-old uh girl uh you know really kind of stringy hair and kind of big eyes but she knew instantaneously that that was her daughter you know the critique everybody has of the UFO thing they say it's not scientific because it's inherently ephemeral it's not repeatable I disagree there no they say there are no patterns it's there are patterns the two patterns that I have noticed are one is people who are in heightened States Of Consciousness or engaging in specific protocols or whatever

or the nuclear connection you have 170 ICBM security Personnel radar operators people who work at nuclear bases across the United States who are have to be the picture of mental health in fact many of them are on the PRP program the personal reliability program where they they have to report if they're on ibuprofen yes because they're guarding the crown jewels of the United States defense they hit the wrong button it's no not good for us and they claim to have consistently see anomalous objects in the sky sure around their nuclear bases in fact there's

and that caused the outage and time and time again you hear of all these cases and those guys careers have been hit because of report rep in this and the Air Force office of special investigations continuously shows up and kind of makes their life a living hell after after they experience this so anyways to the people that say this isn't sort of a repeatable thing it's not true it's not true yeah it's just just that they're ignorant yeah you know I mean the the only thing worse than being ignorant is being ignorant and then arrogant about it yes yes you know and that's

the way lot lot of the people are yeah uh and and so that what I've said is I've just ignored that you know say you know if a person is ignorant you don't have to beat up on them over it they're just ignorant uh and you don't have to be insulting to them because if they're ignorant they don't know it and so they think you're wrong when you accuse them of being ignorant yeah so there's no advantage to that but but there's a whole other level of people in our human family that are not ignorant that that uh follow protocols and try to figure out what's really going on and that's what

we're talking about here and and one of the most important issues that this element of our human family deal with uh is the UFO issue uhuh uh and the the reality is is that it mixes in with these psychic faculties um and that the so even though you have something is dare I say prosaic as extraterrestrial beings who have who have been like two billion years more technologically advanced than we are and psychically advanced than we are you know who happen to have been figured

out how to come and go from our planet okay bang you know but then there's all this other stuff there's all this other strange phenomenon that goes on on our planet that exists at this other level of insight uh such as the capacities of our human family to have telepathy and teleportation and astral travel in remote viewing uh in transmutation of matter you know and and and but what we've done is we've we've culturally riveted on some of these beings in the past like Jesus or

LSU or the Buddha and say wow look what these look what these individuals have done and what they do is they build up a complete religion around these people and then they a tenant of the religion is that you can't do this yeah this one individual person could do this yeah uh and therefore there's something super nonhuman about them they're transcendental they're they're spiritual they're they're they're from some other domain somewhere you know it's not true that what they

are is there mutations of our human family that as this faculty is evolving in our human family uh certain individuals have it more fully evolved than others and they attract attention when when this happens you know uh that's what's going on as I say this is another another element uh that really intelligent thinking careful people uh who are not ignorant uh are interested so you're saying it's almost the the metal layer to or the source code of religion in some ways this there's

no doubt about that and it's funny because you know we uh you probably know Diana Pula who's a religious studies professor at UNC Wilmington she originally wrote a book called Heaven Can waade about Catholic purgatory and specifically she was chronicling a lot of divine intervention quote unquote experiences from you know Brothers nuns people associated with the church yes people who are you know seen in her eyes is fairly credible Witnesses and she would actually go back to the Greek and Latin of the translations and she would consistently find that there was almost a onetoone

match between that and the description of you know if you read John Max abductions you know book it was the same thing it was like an orb showing like St Francis of AI she just sees a an orb showing up and it you know he has radiation damage and so um you know may maybe we're actually uncovered sort of the source code of a lot of these sort of quote unquote Divine experiences no that is true do you think that the Angels and Demons kind of nomenclature that's just been used you know across

civilizations that might that might just be it and the reason I ask is because there was actually there's a book called final events by a guy named Nick Redfern and he talks about there's this Evangelical Christian group that was very embedded in the CIA called the Collins Elite and they were at right Airfield uh and they were studying demonic entities and they were doing all sorts of weird cabalistic stuff and they were attracting these sort of you could say similar to you know the protocols of amist like neoplatonist or Thomas aquinus is kind of Angel hierarchies you know

beings between us and God which have been believed in for centuries and they then came out of that study saying this stuff is demonic it's evil you know maybe we are actually living The Book of Revelations and this stuff showing up is you know greater greater propond is is actually really bad and they started to campaign against it yeah well there there are different lenses through which you a worldview that you can perceive this thing uh and there's no doubt that that is one of them you know that that is one of the lenses through which they're perceiving this entire operation which is

that is that scary are we at the end of history or something that feels like sort of a paradigm shift no it is a paradigm shift uh but that doesn't mean you're at the end of History it means that you're there's sort of a full aadal jump you know in Consciousness that's what's happening right now uh and it's it's generating a lot of instability and people are becoming you know disconnected to reality and not not trusting in facts anymore and and speculating wildly and and you know trying to figure out what's going on you know in the the UFO phenomenon is an integral part of that uh

and the whole relationship of psychic capacities of our human family are directly related to this you know uh in in the whole issue of religions uh trying to figure out you know whether there's some new religion that is birthing here uh that relates this and but remember that religion the Latin root of religion is reare uh which is like to relink and ever since the evolution of the intellect in our species of homo sapiens sapien the in us the Latin root of intellectus is is the ability

to distinguish the difference between uh and so that we've been able to experientially experience the difference between oursel and all the rest of our environment uh and that we've developed an intellect that is able to manipulate that and and kind of computerize it and and mathematize it and all of that and to primarily to manipulate uh physical reality around ourselves do you think you know it almost feels like the most underrated narrative here it's it's not as much maybe about the crafts that were trying to reverse engineer but it's about the people that seem

he goes to New Hampshire and um and meets with Betty and Barney Hill and so there's a special interest on the part of the government among the people who've been contact now you have this guy Chris bledo in North Carolina who like you have this guy Jim semivan who's a hardcore Intel guy top ranking CIA official who's you know 20- year Intel career and he some why is he showing up at Chris Bludso's house and asking him what he's you know Chris bledo says he's encountered this divine feminine figure that says she's come from the Dark Side of the Moon is semivan just wasting

his time spending time with him it almost feels like people are the conduit for this like esoteric information and there's a strata of Intel that's interested in the people themselves all of that's true like like like Greer for example who you worked with he started doing these C5 protocols and attracting the sort of alien stuff and then you got you have Albert stubblebine and John Alexander get in touch with him and it's almost like they're trying to recruit him into something like they become very interested in him because he's an attractor of this stuff getting warm now

okay so what what does all this mean yeah right yeah well it what what it means what it means is that there's a a very definite uh psychic uh connection here uh what what we as human beings Homo sapiens refer to as psychic capacities you know telepathy uh you know precognition uh remote viewing capacities uh there's a whole series of charisms that are that're basically referred to in the Hindu Stu as sidas yeah you know which is our function of Consciousness is

that that clearly our human species is capable of of experiences that are non normal yes uh they regular normal people don't have these experiences or at least they don't realize it my first year of Law School uh I had come up from Harvard College had gone across the street to the law school and I had heard that crane Brinton uh who was the uh the chairman of the Department of intellectual history at Harvard for like 30 years and he was going to be doing his last lecture and

he said uh he got up and he said you know I've been asked to lecture on what I think the most important single intellectual Insight of our human family is that I've encountered in my 50 years and he said and this is easy he said he said I think that all the greatest minds of our human family have come to realize that our human family is right on the brink of its next step in biological evolution uh and that we're going to be evolving from homo sapien sapien into the next stage of our biological evolution and the key factor that is going to differentiate the next

species from us is this evolution of this faculty there's a faculty like seeing or hearing that that is able to directly and immediately experientially access a certain vibrational frequency uh that exists in the universe like light or like sound but that there's an extraordinarily subtle bonding phenomenon that bonds every single ultimately irreducible integer of matter in the entire physical Universe into one unified harmonic ho said and that this is this is discernible uh it's

extraordinarily subtle but there's a faculty that is evolving by means of which we can access this experience and when when one has this experience the it's like it's like a crystal set locking into a a kind of a radio signal and that you lock into this unitive phenomenon in the universe and it can download all kinds of information to you uh nonlinearly like seeing or hearing he said in that he said in that this faculty we're at the brink of of of moving into this new species he

said he said and I think he said he said to us all this is 1968 right this is like May of 1968 and he says and I think that's why so many of you young men here refused to go fight in this war in Vietnam ah wow that's what he said to us in that lecture so he's saying that like you know Pierre deardon like the the very well as a matter of fact the the new sphere like like the sort of mental sheath around the earth that you could sort of tap into or the Russian the Russian cosmists

sort of believed in something similar yeah so to the Chinese interesting this the first thing that Dr Jen Jo Jing showed me Dr Jen Jo Jing who's the head of the Chinese Academy of social science that they've got this uh this faculty in Beijing 300 of the top professors in all fields that are there for the poet Bureau and uh I met her that I I was chairing for the state of the world forum for gorbachov and for James Baker at the end of the the cold war that I chaired a thing called the Strategic initiative to identify the new paradigm uh and uh I met her in that context uh

and she invited me to come to China and uh wow as soon as I showed up the first thing she did is she brought me to the laboratory showing me all these experiments they were doing with psychic abilities and they were exploring and trying to figure out what what all this was and so that this this is a very real thing uh that our human family is is going through right now it's a it's a transition period into a kind of a new paradigm uh and the UFO stuff is part of it you know well Aerospace

has been very interested in Paras pychology mind over matter for a very long time they sort of hidden it but like you have James McDonald who's the patron of McDonald Douglas he had a parapsychology Institute in the 60s uh you had I think he was actually pretty close with uh Bob John who was the dean of engineering at Princeton who went on to start the Princeton uh anomalies you know pair uh and this this is extraordinarily important it's really important and people people people who are who GFA at it and and poke fun at it stuff are just not only ignor but they're

arrogant I just had a call with we I'll delete this if I I'll ask him if I can put this in here but the the head of revolutionary technology that Skunk Works I think this is okay to say CU he's on record sort of believing in this stuff but he's head of like the the program that uh you know like our our most important Recon aircrafts just on an objective level come out of and he believes in all this stuff he's I mean he's I mean he I think is is on record if he didn't he shouldn't be in this position he's yeah totally no exact if anything can procure an advantage for them they

have to be studying it yeah and so yeah it's very interesting just how interested they are in this sort of Mind Over Matter stuff and it's almost like a cleavage between Academia which shut down you know all ideas around Paras pychology in the 70s through 90s uh and then Aerospace where it's like it's just basic Game Theory you have to you have to do anything to get an advantage where they they really went way deeper into Paras pychology and then Academia stuck in string theory which is a stupid abstract math that hasn't gotten us anything hasn't shipped

any prodct they're still stuck in the scientific logical positivist materialist worldview that's right you know it's it's institutionalized at the Academy at the University level uh and that therefore you can't you can't get Cutting Edge uh exploration on the part of some of the better minds of our family Human family they won't they won't allow it yes uh philosophy Theology and any of them you can't go there yes uh and so that's why you have lot these other like that we have a relationship with the new paradigm Institute it's called ubiquity University they're accredited in

Europe uh but you they can't get accredited here in the United States uh because they talk about this stuff yeah and saying look we've got to get we've got to get intelligent Minds working on this some systematic way it's so absurd we spend $15 billion on a large hygrine collider and you have the possibility that there's a mind mind matter interface that kind of our cartisian dualist ideas are just totally off and it's like maybe you know sub 50 million has been spent on you know

I know and and maybe that's by Design I don't quite know yeah and there still there're still you know lighting uh like rocket fuel on fire and burning it com to shoot a to shoot a rocket up into the and they're spending billions of dollars on that as a front operation you think you think it's a front so you think SpaceX is a front totally for what for what's really known about what the way that these craft really work right but then are we operating the craft then or when you say the well no it's interesting that they they they obviously ran into a major problem uh

you look at a random event generator you have you know basically the Mind affecting random uh kind of quantum mechanical processes like Quantum tunneling or radioactive isotope Decay yeah so you know you have this almost like per perfect digital coin flip created you have one one and a zero that's showing up on a screen but it's tied to this perfect random quantum mechanical process and an observer is present and they can statistically beyond the standard deviation sway it between one and zero and so maybe there's something about the ability to Pilot

the craft that you know requires a certain level of internal Harmony orating on the point I was making yeah is that they they weren't able to fly them yeah they they've got them but they can't fly them have you ever seen a UFO no have you ever SE seen photographs you've seen a picture of a UFO photographs where have you seen a picture of a UFO in the classif files of Project Blue Book you got to go through the files of Blue Book so Blue Book for the audience was the Air Force's investigation in UFOs under astronomer Jay Allen Heck from the 50s in the 60s 52 to2 69

and really you were able to go through weren't those classified files they were how were you able to see them were you in a a kind of a skiff a compartmentalized facility or no it was the the they brought them to the uh basement uh offices of uh the Madison building of the National Archives you know back before the building was open the building had just been finished in the early

spring January of 77 and I was the special counsel to the study that was being done at the request of President Carter what was the study welle pres you just have to back up a bit when when President Carter remember had seen a UFO yeah in 1969 I believe it was with a bunch of other people a bunch of people 11 other people they were standing on the steps of this Lion's Club although I think that sighting may have be been debunked since no it's it it wasn't uh he he no it hasn't been that

what what he he saw he it was it was only like a thousand yards away it wasn't like a big you know star in the sky or any of that weird stuff it was like a UFO and he was very specific about it he talked about it yeah there's an interview where he talks about yeah and he and he filed a report about it with the Air Force and and stuff with naikap at the time uh and so that when he was elected in the first week of November of 19 uh 76 you know the first thing he did was he sent

for the head of the Central Intelligence agency to come down to Plains Georgia uh even before he had gone to Washington so he was still at his home down in Georgia uh in ask the CIA person had person to come to brief him on the UFO issue and it turns out that person was George H W bush uh who had been appointed by Gerald Ford who had come in taking over for Nixon when Nixon resigned over the Watergate thing there's a rumor that uh Jimmy Carter saw the UFO files and was shocked by them

and and tears or very distraught is that a rumor is that BS or a rumor is the most it's it's Arisen to that so when when Carter was was inaugurated on the 21st of January in 77 one of the first things he did is he contacted Congress and told him that the the agency refused to brief him he didn't want to have a war with the CIA you know and spend all that political Capital trying to engage with them on uh this and so he asked the uh Congressional uh Science and Technology committee to to contact

the the uh Congressional research service and have them do a special uh research project for him on what all the information was that our United States government had uh about the UFO phenomena uh and about whether or not there was any connection with extraterrestrial intelligence he asked both things uh and so that I ended up being contacted by Mar Dr Marsha Smith who is the head of the Science and Technology division of the uh Congressional research service and she asked if

I would be special counsel to the project uh and I agreed to do that and uh and it's there's two or three steps involved here because I don't want people to get the wrong impression that the reason that she asked me to be special counsel to the investigation was specific speically she wanted me to contact the Vatican archives and see as general counsel for the Jesuit national headquarters in their Social Ministry Office whether I could get access to the the Vatican archives and find out uh

for the Library of Congress and for the president what information they had so I checked with the my superiors of the judu would headquarters and got permission to do that and so I agreed to be special counsel so I contacted the the Vatican uh and ask if they would let us give me access to the to the archives uh and they said no so I was kind of taken aback by that and so I wrote them a second letter with the authority of the Jesuit headquarters and it re explained in more detail

what we were doing and why we were doing it uh and they still said no and so I contacted Dr Marshall Smith and told her that this it's not going to happen they won't won't do it so I figured that was it that was the you know my my sole role as the special counsel uh but then she called me back a couple weeks later and she said uh oh uh the the new the new Congress that's come in uh with President Carter uh the House of Representatives cut out half of all of the budget for seti the

search for extraterrestrial intelligence at the jet propulsion laboratory and so she said uh that she's helping to organize a group of astronauts to go to the key members of Congress at the House of Representatives uh to Advocate putting the full budget back in would you agree to do that would you agree to go with them as the legal counsel for the Jesuit headquarters so I did I went with you know Rusty Schwab and a whole bunch of the schwier and a bunch of the other folks uh and we went around and talked to the Congress people and they put the money back in and so the she Dr Marshall

Smith called me and said oh the scientists at the SEI project are super excited they're really happy uh they're very thankful for you to help on this thing would you they want you to come and and give a closed door seminar to them on the theological implications of contact with an extraterrestrial civilization so the bottom line is that uh that uh I get asked by by Dr Marshall Smith to to go out and do this this uh seminar to the top 50 scientists soci C so I I say where I said look

if I'm going to go do this you know I'd like to really to have you get me some access to some of the stuff that you're getting and gathering for the president you know that you're putting together so I can be better briefed on you know what we're doing here to talk with them and she said well okay what would you like to have and I said oh I I want to have the classified pors of Project Blue Book and she said oh right there they're they're not ever going to give that to us and I said well you know you won't get it unless you ask I said here you are doing this for the

president you'll just if you would ask them so I can see them uh and she said well okay I'll ask and uh uh she called me back like I don't know 3 or four days later or more and she calls back and she said well she's totally surprised that they agreed that I could see her so I did you know I get my suit on I bring my little lawyer briefcase I bring the whole line yards and bring my passport and my Washington DC driver's license I go over to the Madison Building and I would come there and I was a Saturday morning uh and here are these two suits there these big no- neck tough guys kind

of suit you know they're not Air Force those are not Air Force guys you know I don't know couldn't quite tell who they were uh but look like SF guys you know uh and so so they are kind of gruff and they check my ID out I showed them the ID and stuff they said all right so they leave me into the hallway and they say okay go down the hallway here to the to your right go down there and take the elevator down go down to the the basement uh and you'll see them so I said all right so I go down the hallway and I get in the elevator and I start down the elevator and it was just an

instinctive thing I did I opened up my briefcase and took out a yellow pad a legal pad and closed up my briefcase and I put the yellow pad under my arm uh and I come down to the the basement floor and I get out of the elevator and there's no lights on like in the hallway or but I could see down the hall I could see down down to the left I can see a light out of a room with the door open so down I go I got down there hear these two other suits two other guys there right and they both check my ID and stuff and they say okay you got to got to leave the briefcase here stuff you

can't you can't go in you can't take any no you can't record anything uh you know but uh here's the room and so I uh so I I walked in the room and I say it's like about 20 ft wide and about 12 15 ft deep and there these three cardboard kind of card tables you know uh uh there in the in the room and they had these boxes little cardboard boxes like they were big like big shoe boxes like they're big bigger than a shoe box but they were this kind of pale green with a little tie

little string tie on them uh and so and they had a microfish machine was there and so so I go and sit down and I take the yellow pet off on there and I lay it down there I go over and I open up one of the boxes and they've got there's a whole bunch of documents with you know all kinds of you know uh uh head letter head on them and everything and so I'm saying look at this is going to take me forever if I start reading all these things let me just try to find some photos and so I I went through this one then another can of it and another I think maybe the third canister of this

stuff and here are these photos and there's it was photos of a there wasn't any doubt about what it was it was a crash retrieval of a UFO you could see that the UFO had had crashed into this field and there was snow on the on on the field and it had plowed this big gouge all the way through this field and the dirt was all turned up and stuff and the the UFO itself was stuck in the side of this big embankment that was covered with snow but you could tell it was like just Earth and embankment

it was stuck in the side of the bank you have any idea where the UFO was or it the photo it was no it was it was snow and there were Air Force guys all around it I could tell that's what they were and it was Winter and they had these they had the park is on like with a little fur around the the hood stuff do you think there's any chance it was fabricated for you to to show you it would have been ridiculous to to go to to those lengths to set up some fake picture or something like that I

mean it was it was clear it was clear that it was and you you could see the guys taking photographs of it and and there was one like a movie camera they had that that had those weird two canisters on the top like this kind of an old timey kind of older version of a movie camera uh and they were filming it uh and you know there were like three or four of the different photos of it from different angles and I could see it in in one of the photos I could see that around the bottom of

the microfish machine and I focused it so that I could see see the symbols uh and then I traced the symbols exactly uh verbatim you know all the way around this the half of the the the Dome that I could see and I just put them all I just traced all of them uh and uh I I put put the closed up the yellow pad you know rolled up the the micro fish put it back in the little canister and put it back in the box and tied the little string on it and put it back and I said okay that's it I got it

you know wow did did anybody else see it or no no well they father father Davis saw it photo no no he sawm he saw the tracings did you not want to show anybody the photo itself well I didn't have the photo itself I I there wasn't any way I could get you were alone I was just alone I was just alone there the two guys were outside the door okay uh and so I I I had the I had the thing traced so I put the stuff away I put the the the yellow patter under my arm again and I just walked

out can you sketch the yeah UFO yeah I'd love to see I I can sketch the UFO I can show you exactly what it looked like okay so here's here's the photo and it's uh you know you you can see the field here uh and it was so that you could see the plow there was this thing plowed right straight through here this is the dirt with all the dirt all kicked up all along the the side of this trench and the trench was dug all the way through the field and the the craft itself was like this

and it was it was stuck in the in the the side of the the hill and the hill came down like this and it was stuck well it wasn't that tall it was like up here uh and it was stuck there and around the bottom of the Dome on top of here there was right like this around here there were all of these little symbols there were these symbols that were here and they they they look like this and and that's that's what they they they went all the way around here have you spoken to

like a symbologist since then do you have any sense of you should I I I hadn't what I what I did is I I walked out of there uh when I had him and I I walk out and I I walked pass these two guys there was and they were kind of surprised that I had come out of there so fast I mean I've kicked myself a hundred times since then you know why didn't stay in there and try to figure out more stuff so what I did is I you know I I I was kind of freaked out you know that we got well so I come I walk out of the place uh and I I reach down and pick up my briefcase

and start just walking away these guys you know and they were kind of surprised that I'd come out of there that fast uh and uh and so as I started walking down the hall one of them says hey hold it hold it what do you got there and I said uh oh this is my briefcase I just picked up my briefcase and he said no no no no what do you got under your arm over there and both of the guys come over to me and they stop me and uh one snatches the yellow pth away and and Ruffles through the pages and there's nothing on them of course uh CU I did it on the inside of the cardboard on

the back wow uh inside and so they didn't even see it and then he just hands it back to me me and so I just walk walk away and I I kind of go down the hallway and get back into the elevator wow and uh and then it was elevator's going up I open my briefcase and put it back inside and and walk up then well you brought up Carter's initial interest in UFOs because he saw one then he goes to George HW Bush and he says I want to get briefed uh so HW Bush probably you know knew a lot about the whole UFO phenomena and 2015 2016 when Jeb Bush his son is uh campaigning

you know against Trump and the Republican primary uh George HW Bush is you know helping him campaign he's very old at the time and he's on the stage he's in a wheelchair and somebody from the public in a you know Q&A session says what do you know about UFOs and he starts going off about how you know the American public is not ready for the truth on UFOs which is definitely offs script from what he would usually say and uh you know they just sort of slowly wheel him off the stage and you know say he's like you know he's not uh doesn't have his marbles or whatever interesting

yeah but um what about JFK you know there's this document from 2005 that was it was Foyd in 2005 um and by a guy named I think Lester William Lester um and I've tried to get in touch with this guy multiple times because I want to know whether it's real or fake it's like this another thing like the Oppenheimer thing where it's like if Oppenheimer was involved with UFOs that's this crazy Smoking Gun that like would really change the public in cus if JFK was looking into UFOs at the end of his life and we know that that also would be this really important fact for people to know and so

it's this letter that was foed in 2005 but it's from November 12th 1963 so 10 days before he shot in Dallas and it's a letter from him to acting CIA director John mccon and he's saying I want all the data on unknowns but by unknowns he means UFOs and he's saying specifically I'm worried about you know uh the USSR uh freaking out because you know they're seeing these UFOs in their airspace and they think they're acts of American aggression yeah and so do you think that that

investigating uh the the assassination CU he was a very very important guy he's the guy that got the zeruda film down in Dallas and he was the guy that had he was the The Life Magazine uh guy for Miami the Miami uh office uh and was F and he ran the he ran the Life Magazine team that was on the ground in Dallas the day of the assassination afterwards he's the guy that got there there's a Bruder film

he knows all about all that stuff I had just been uh over on the hill meeting with uh tip O'Neal uh and uh and also with uh on the Senate side was uh Clayborn pal uh and showing them copies of the complaint that we had drafted Clayborn pel by the way is super interested in Paras pychology and all sorts of crazy stuff and he's Biden he was Biden's Mentor all throughout his career anyway keep so so

the bottom line is I I've been over on the hill I was showing them copies of the complaint that we had uh prepared uh and it filed already down in Miami bottom line I come back to I come back to my office and I walk into the office 1324 North Capital Street you you know just 13 blocks in the capital walk in and Patty Austin is my secretary she says uh Danny there's a older gentleman here waiting to see you and I said uh well who is it she said I don't know he didn't give me his name

and I said well where is he and she said he's up in your office sitting waiting for you and so I said all right so I go upstairs I go into my office and I walk over and I here's this guy he's looks like he's about 65 years old or something like this and so I walk over I I said hi I'm Danny Shen he said great it's good to good to meet you Mr Shen and never told me what his name was and so uh I go back and I get behind my desk and I say okay what what can I do for you he said uh look he said uh I've got a copy of your complaint here and he pulls out a copy of the complaint which had

been sealed actually by Judge James Lawrence King down in in Florida the just the previous Friday and so so I was kind of a little bit taken aback that he had it uh and he said he said uh now he said you don't you don't know who I am at all I said yeah I noticed that uh and he said uh but look it I just want to uh ask you a few questions you don't have to answer me if you don't want but I think I might be able to help you on this I said okay what he said now you got 29 people

listed here as the defendants in your Iran Contra you know Federal Criminal racketeering complaint uh was the addo the associate deputy director for operations of the CIA uh uh running covert operations uh and uh he was the immediate boss of the fellow who was the uh National Security

adviser for George Bush Senior who's the vice president I said so that you know in since that's the guy in whose office they've been meeting the Iran Contra people uh and and uh and Felix Rodriguez and the guys were meeting with him you know uh so a lot of people would think that that's the reason I think that he's the most important uh and he said but that's not the that's not the reason why you think he's the most important and I said no no he said well why do you think he's the

most important I said I said because he was the CIA station Chief in Miami uh on November 22nd of 1963 and he said he said there aren't two men in the world that would have answered that question that way he said my name is Dick Billings I was the chief staff writer for the house select committee on assassinations I think I can help you out on this case and that's how it started we found out that that Kennedy on June 5th of 1963 uh and this would be what June July August SE October

like five months earlier uh that he had asked to be briefed on the UFO stuff he wanted all the UFO stuff on June 5th that was the same day that uh Bobby Kennedy had been first notified about the existence of the political assassination team that had been put together by Richard Nixon back in 1960 when he was the vice president and the chair of the 5412 committee under is under isenhower here is a bulletin from CBS News in Dallas Texas three shots were fired at President Kennedy's

motorcade in Downtown Dallas do you think that the CIA killed JFK not exactly okay not exactly uh but I do know who did kill him you know and I do know that it was an s force it was a 15-man force that was created back in 1960 okay actually uh by Richard Nixon and this was the force created to go after kill Castro to kill Fidel Castro R Castro CH Goa in five particular kantes of the new uh government and so why did Nixon create this for us to kill Castro he realized who well actually

what he did strangely enough is he called Howard Hughes MH was the the the day the day that uh that Nelson Rockefeller MH withdrew from the Michigan State Primary in the Republican presidential primary campaign uh was the day that Richard Nixon knew he was going to be the Republican nominee in 1960 okay and he knew that this Kennedy kid whose father you know had basically bought him a seat

you know in the Congress and he was just kind of you know Hollow vehicle you know uh it was he was going to beat him and so what he did is picks up the telephone the security phone in the 5412 Committee of the National Security Council and calls Howard Hughes because Howard Hughes was a secret consultant to the National Security Council he had he had invented the the glomar Explorer to pick up Russian submarines if they fail and fall to the bottom of the ocean he did the c5a cargo

plane the big uh Spruce Goose and he was doing two other extreme extremely extremely sensitive programs what what was he doing I can't tell you that uh but that uh but the bottom line is he was close in Well he must have been working on UFO stuff too not no he was not he was he was not no no they hadn't gotten him in on that he was doing things much more kind of military kind of prosaic military stuff so the bottom but the bottom line is Nixon knew him because of that because

Nixon chaired the 5412 committee mhm as the vice president under Eisenhower in 1960 so he chaired that 5412 committee that's in charge of covert operations so he knew about him being there and so he picks up the the red phone and calls Howard Hughes and tells Hughes that he wants him to set up an assassination team to kill Fidel Castro and Raul Castro and Chay Goa because they're refusing Nixon's demands being communicated to them that they not have any diplomatic relations

either Russia or China he was setting that up as a condition you know he was invoking basically the Old Monroe Doctrine what what he did is asked uh uh uh him to set up an assassination team he asked Howard Hughes to do that Howard Hughes didn't agree or disagree on the phone being smart enough not to trust Trump trust Nixon as whether he was recording it or not so he didn't say yes or no but he called in one of his lawyers Bob Mayu and assigned it to mayh to figure out how we might do

this and so Mayu goes in they were in Las Vegas where where they were right uh and he goes and Robert Mayu goes to see Johnny roselli and Johnny roselli is the bagman at the two casinos that were owned by the mafia right and his his principal uh uh is uh in in in Chicago uh he goes to see him right Sam janana M and says look I uh so so Mayhew goes to Johnny roselli and says look you guys you

guys uh with the bent noses you know you got your own reason for wanting to get rid of Castro you know he closed down all the gambling casinos he closed down the whouses and very importantly he closed off the heroin trafficking that was coming in through the Golden Triangle okay and uh and so therefore you got your own reasons for wanting to get rid of them so why don't you guys do that that Nixon's getting set to be president MH he wants you to do this m and so so he says well I can't do it without talking to Gian Kan who's my my principal so he goes back to Chicago

and talks to Gian Gian says well wait a this is traffic's territory down there m he's the da of the mafia in Havana and even though he fled from Havana on January 1st of 1959 when when Castro took over so he fled and came up to Florida and was camped out in Tampa setting up his regime there and a whole bunch of the other uh refugees of that were Batista people you know along with trafficante because they were Partners in the heroin trade Batista the the the dictator

predecessor to was he was the dictator he was partners with Santos traficanti in the heroin operation and the third guy in the partnership uh was uh uh uh Paul helwell Paul helwell was the head of the sea Supply Corporation sea a southeast Asia Supply Corporation he was full-time full-time Central Intelligence Agency mhm full-time Central Intelligence Agency so is this like pre- Iran Contra or something pre Iran Contra all 1960 but it was kind of like um a precursor in some ways

because were they doing the same thing using the profits to fund back back absolutely yeah and so that that uh so they said we can't do this without trafficante you know being in charge of figuring out what to do about this so they fly down you know Sam ganana Johnny Ros II and uh and Bob Mayu fly down to to Florida and they have three sets of meetings at the fan blue hotel now we're getting all of this directly from trafficante who turns out to be the client of the firm where I was what

are these trafficante guys doing in the Watergate Hotel why are they there you know so that's how I found out so traffic count is telling us all this so that these are the facts of what happened okay so the bottom line is that he after the second meeting says okay I'm supportive of this in principle but you know uh I didn't fall off no melon wagon he said so I wanted to make sure that this wasn't his term a brain fart this wasn't some kind of brain fart you know of Howard Hughes or much less Mayu you know I needed to know this was coming directly from Nixon if we were going

to do this and so the next meeting shows up a guy at the third meeting uh that used The Gnome Dear Mr Ed and it was Sheffield Edwards who's the chief security of the Central Intelligence Agency okay so he greenlights the the creation of this assassination team that's designed to kill Castro if fed Al Castro R Castro and CH Goa and these other common Dantes right and so that that that goes into motion they agree to do that and trafficante uh figures out okay what am I who am

I going to put together on this team he's smart so what he does is he picks 15 guys that are all former gunman from him down in Havana who had fled with him up to Florida who'd now been recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency to form this thing called operation 40 which is this cover operation against Cuba Burning Bridges you know lighting fires to their their sugar cane Fields you know poisoning the the shipments of sugar going out you doing everything to try to to destroy the economy of of that country right because they were in defiance of Nixon because

they' gone ahead and established diplomatic relations with both China and Russia so he wanted to you know to close down their economy to show that you know a socialist economy couldn't s couldn't function so so so the so the bottom line is they they trafficante contacts guys that have now been hired by the Central Intelligence Agency covertly to participate in operation 40 in covert operations against Cuba and he selects 15 of these people which they call a code name the S Force so what happens between the S Force and castra well that they're trying to figure out how

to assassinate Castro they're trying to figure out all these different ways of doing it uh in but in the meantime what happens is Nixon doesn't get elected you know uh and so that he doesn't get elected and in comes Kennedy you know and brings in his brother Bobby as the Attorney General right uh and it turns out they don't know anything about this assassination team because it's been set up completely off the shelf like this by Nixon right and so that everybody just steps back and lets that team keep on going uh but the kennedies don't know about it mhm and so that that whole operation

comes down you know they go through the whole Bay of Pigs thing you know that falls through uh and Kennedy goes down and apologizes literally goes down to Miami in the Orange Bowl and gathers together all these hardcore right-wing kubano refugees and and apologizes to them for this and Promises them that the free flag of Cuba will fly over the island before the end of his second term he says that to him right uh and he comes back and he even though he told uh uh Cru Chef

that he was going to stop the covert operations going on against Cuba he was going to shut down operation 40 he wasn't going to do that anymore uh you know Maya Copa sorry for doing that 40 with an operation called mango they settled up over at the Miami on the Miami campus University of Miami campus in this big uh hanger that's there uh in the that mango runs there uh and and uh and the guys that were doing the covert operations against uh Cuba still you know included all the guys on

the S Force who had that other hat on Kennedy's aware of all this and even directing some of it how does it end up turning on him no Kennedy wasn't aware of it at all at all at all okay at all until June 5th okay until June 5th of 1963 okay was when he found out that Walter Sullivan told Bobby you know about out about it and then Bobby tells John you know but they didn't know about it until June 5th of 1963 so that that thing is going on all that time okay and so that the the

the smoke is cleared on the Bay of Pigs problem but what happens of course is you in 62 in October of 62 is the Cuban Missile Crisis because Kennedy had lied to kusf about shutting down operation 40 and and it just substituted operation mango Nikita grusf is totally pissed off and so what he does is but that's what I mean by Kennedy being aware is he's aware of [ __ ] but he's not aware of the S4 no no no right right he knew about [ __ ] there's no doubt about that uh but he didn't know

about the S Force so he doesn't know about the original intention to take out Castro he does anything about that okay and so so the bottom line is is that what uh what what happens is that kusf is so pissed off over the fact that he's been lied to Now by Kennedy you know that he starts putting missiles into cubba mhm okay and then when they find out about it in October this whole thing comes down which everybody knows about and they come to within you know a hair's breath of totally destroying the entire world and you know Curtis lame and his guys you know are are you know coming

up with operation Northwoods and all that stuff of trying to figure out how to generate a war you know with Russia uh in so the bottom bottom line is Kennedy has to crush that whole operation to say look we've got to we've got to stop this this is totally nuts MH so what he does is opens up a line of of completely covert Communications with Nikita CRF uh and he is promising him look okay look you're right I lied to you but look at I'm telling you now it's it's I'm telling you the truth you and I need to do something about this we've come just within a minute of destroying the

entire planet you know we've got to do something and what they decided among themselves in an exchange of 18 different letters that went back and forth completely secretly outside of the channels of the state department outside of channels of the of the CIA that he set up a completely private operation Kennedy and cruff to each other agreed that they were going to each use their respective Authority as the executives of those two countries to start disassembling the nuclear warheads of their entire nuclear arsenals because they were each personally so

totally traumatized by what had happened or almost happened and so that they started get getting ready to do that uh and what happened is is uh Ellen Dulles found out about this who had been the first civilian head of the CIA yeah and who hated Kennedy they well that yeah sure he hated Kennedy you know over Bay of Pigs hated him Bay of Pigs hated because he got fired you know but really more importantly and more sophisticatedly was totally opposed to the disassembling of the

nuclear warheads of the nuclear Arsenal you know because they believed that they needed to have that against China not not against Russia it's against China because they'd already been shown you know at uh at uh the uh Reservoir in in Korea and at inchan that the the Chinese could put a million men uh in uniform into the field against you you couldn't do anything about it you couldn't win a traditional land war against China so they had to have the nuclear missiles so they viewed

Kennedy as a traitor but he was getting set to disassemble the the primary military capacity that the United States had doing it covertly with the Soviets I.E chrisf personally okay and they said that's it that's curtains we can't wait we can't wait for an election a year from now you know a year and a half from now in November of 6 64 we've got to get rid of him now mhm and so what they did is they tasked the S Force that that uh that they knew existed cuz Cu uh cuz Dallas knew that they

existed cuz Dallas was involved in it earlier on so how does Dallas do that because dallis leaves and joins Brown Brothers Herman yeah he goes back to Brown Brothers Herman where he had in effect never really left as a Central Intelligence Agency was the brainchild of the people at Brown Brothers Herman you know Robert LoveIt who was one of the senior Partners there is the one who wrote the original memo to Truman recommending that they create a Central Intelligence Agency and that they have a c operations capacity which they put in section 5412 to authorize them to engage in covert

operations and what would Brown Brothers Herman was just like a normal Law Firm at the surface or what what Brown Brothers Herman wasn't a law Brown Brothers Herman was a a collective Investment Company I was an investment that's right and they had the kind of the richest 25 patrones from the robber barons that were all investors common investors and they would come together and and decide how they were going to direct their Investments together what they did for example uh after world after World War I this gets a little complicated but after World War I uh in 198 they

had the versai treaty yeah uh negotiations yeah it turns out that the Secretary of State under Wilson yeah back in 1918 was a guy being Robert Lancing uhhuh Robert Lancing was the son-in-law of uh of John W Foster who was the former Secretary of State back in 189 93 he's the grandfather of John Foster dullas and Alan Dulles those are his nephews and so what he does is when he supervises setting up the Versa treaty he brings in his two nephews as part of the team that they bring to

Versa those are the two guys that drafted the war reparations Provisions inside the Treaty of Versa this feels like too big of a triple Bank Shot or something cuz you you also talk about like it's like the Union Bank was like funding there was any doubt about that yeah that's just fact so so you think do you think that the Versailles was sort of intentionally you know too harsh in a way that like made you know like created an opice for the extremism of Nazism sort of you know no

crushed wart it started out in a much more prosaic motive because what they did is they said oh look we're imposing the war reparations requirements of Germany uh through the exercise of the power of the state department y supervising the Veri treaty and so they this major debt now that they owe uh to all the corporations that they have destroyed their property in the aggressive war in World War I right and so what they did then is the through the power of his office as Secretary of State Robert Lancing appoints appoints uh Allan DS MH who is legal counsel for Brown

Brothers Herman MH to be the lawyer for Germany and he conducts a negotiation pursuant to which those War reparations will be covered by Brown Brothers Herman they're going to extend loans to the German government to pay the war reparations and they're going to take as security for those loans stock in all their major military really crazy in 1924 George Herbert Walker leaves brown BRS Herman sets up the the Union Bank of New York completely capitalized by the guys who

are part of Brown Brothers Herman all the 25 investors they capitalized the bank they set up a foreign subsidiary up in the Netherlands called the bank of shipping and commer is run by Fritz th and they finance the construction of the international headquarters of the Third Reich so crazy and and they start funing money uh to to Hitler to rise up to become the bwork against bolshevism Y in Europe yeah and so that they wanted Hitler to establish this kind of fascist government the economic theory of which is you place all the instrumentalities of the government

at the disposal of the interests of the private corporations mhm and they will then help you know help the major corporations the corporations will prosper they'll hire more people it'll stimulate your economy you know and people uh all the way up into the top agreed with that that's a great idea like Henry Ford and the guys at Brown Brothers har they thought that's a good idea to do that right Ford had ideological sympathies as well that was what they were doing so so that's how and then when Hitler started coming off the leash Y and deciding that he was not only going to going

toize everything he's going to take it all and so that ended up getting sort of out of control they lost control of him but it's like this is like a really interesting narrative that the CIA they're set up by uh oligopolistic interests yes yeah to to be but to be able to set up a an economic system uh that was actually fascist uh that was actually putting the instrumentalities of the government at the disposal of the interests of the corporations because then the corporations could could deploy for example sending a military expeditionary Force down to Nicaragua you know and

Ting the democratically elected government all on behalf all on behalf of who yeah sort of Yankee Yankee imperialism there's a book called the three new deals and it was like Hitler musolini and FDR and they were all sort of compared uh and it was sort of it just shows how sympathetic the US was to to Hitler you know uh just after 33 and before before 38 between 33 and was because they they tried to assassinate him they were planning to overthrow him I didn't know that yeah 19 1934 Brown Brothers Herman the people planned to overthrow the Franklin Roosevelt is

that true oh yeah absolutely true absolutely they the plan there they they tried to recruit the commandant of the United States Marine Corps General Butler to lead a major Insurrection of the of the World War II veterans you know against Franklin Roosevelt's government oust him uh into put put Butler the General Butler in charge uh and that they were going to have a fascist government the carnegies The Rockefellers you know these are all the guilded age fam they're just the guilded age got it okay so when you say Rober Barons you mean the guilded age contr the they were very

very they were that's right absolutely they were very effective doing what they were doing and that They Carried what they were doing to The Logical conclusions of say well look why why wouldn't we exercise control over the government but but this is this is what was going on and and the bottom line is is that that after because Hitler came off the leash yeah and started becoming totally excessive about what he was doing in Europe uh and then started going after all the Jewish

people you know and start doing all these kind of excessive things still you need to remember it's going to be kind of a shocking observation but the United States never declared war on Germany really never did they declared war on Japan Japan after Pearl Har Japan after Pearl Harbor and then Germany declared war on the United States because they were in the axis because there was this huge powerful group inside the United States that didn't want to go to war with the the critique of FDR at the time was like he was not paying attention to any of the stuff going on with

the Holocaust and that he waited way too long and that you know yeah I mean he didn't want to go to he didn't want to he want war initially and then once he realized that he that that well because the whole Lobby didn't want to go to war against Germany because they're the ones that had created them but there there are some rumors that he might have had pre- knowledge of Pearl Harbor he didn't wasn't that s rumor do you think that's true I know that's true they L they lured the Japanese in because he was convinced that they were eventually going to have to go to war anyhow uh and so that what he wanted to do is he wanted to Rally the American people behind it so

what he did is he ordered all of the destroy and the all three of the major aircraft carriers into Pearl all at one time and they were monitoring the Japanese trafficking and and they realized that they said oh what's your confidence level that he had knowledge of that that's 100% okay it's 100% okay because we we know that they they had the cable traffic they had the the communications going on with all the Japanese uh military and they knew that they were luring them in and once they decided they were going to do it he sent the personal order the night before the attack on

December December 7th he ordered all the aircraft carriers to leave under the cover of night that's the key once you see that they ordered them all out of there and they let him bomb Pearl Harbor and in sync a number of the Fairly outmoded destroyers anyhow that they had the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by Naval and Air Forces of the Empire of Japan once Japan did that then they declared he got a declaration of board against Japan not against

Germany and then Germany declared war in the United States okay so let's jump back to JFK actually so this so so Brown Brothers Herman is a very powerful uh Center of of organizing uh okay and so that so that when when Kennedy was deciding that that he was going to do this backdoor Channel thing with Nikita Cru and and start issuing orders to disassemble and destroy the AR the nuclear warheads that when dullas find out about that what he do goes to Brown BRS Herman and they give

the green light say that's it you know that this guy's got to go and he knew about the S Force so that they just they just targeted the S Force uh was George HW Bush involved in the death of JFK no he he was notified just before it was coming down uh as Lyndon Johnson was they were notified that this was happening uh because they had said look at he's trying to he's trying to disassemble the nuclear warheads of our whole arsenal they all got together the Jagger Hoover and George HW Bush was

CIA and I think he went missing the rumor was for 12 days and there's a photograph we know where he was he was he was he was in a meeting at the ranch of Clint merchon is where not the one in Waka but the one in Dallas so he was helping cordinate this whole no no he was just being briefed okay he was just being told notified that this was getting ready to happen okay and so that's it but he he he had pre- knowledge of JFK's yes that's he did l Johnson did uh who did the lynon Johnson thing

makes because it was VI it was viewed as the Patriotic thing to do because he was he was a traitor in their eyes and he was actually planning to physically disassemble the nuclear warheads and Destroy them you know I mean what more what what a greater Act of treason could you do doing it in on behest of this is KF there's so many angles to this and so that's why they did that's why they felt completely self-righteous about it they deploy the S Force you know the guy that killed him is Robert is Roger Morales who the the dead eyee shot for the for the uh for the

team you know off the null and and it turns out so he he was one of the men on the grassy null yeah that's right the key guy and what's his name Morales Roger Morales his name and then uh cabel is one of DS's right-hand men and and there's this weird narrative with him where his brother is the mayor of Dallas that's right cabal and cabal yeah that's right was it cabal or cabal cabal cabel Cel and um his brother the the mayor of Dallas reroutes JFK's motorcade is that right yeah they did he was involved in the decision to do it yeah and there's a weird kind of uh UFO connection

there because uh cabel you know CIA off uh officer Cabell uh had seen Blue Book and he said you know this is a super shoddy operation this is written written up in Edward J rupal's book yeah and so and he he actually became part of Blue Book right he he actually had Authority in Project Blue Book to fix the place up and run it you know uh so that that's all true you know it's one of those data points that you you have to look at and say what does that mean do does it mean what you think it

might mean how many things could it mean Etc but the bottom the bottom line is is that that Oswald the most unpopular part of this whole reality is that everybody thinking Oswald just this innocent guy that just happened to be in the neighborhood that's not true at all do you think he was uh brainwashed or coerced or you know no I I think I think what he did is he realized that there was a plan the foot to have him go up there and take a shot at at Kennedy not to kill him but take the

shot at himh so what they could then do is say oh look he's connected to Cuba that's why he's did that fake Cubans free Cuba committee thing and that they could blame that spend some time in Russia and then they that's right and then they could run and attack you know he thought he was going to be the only one that was going to be taking the the shot at him and then goes try to run away and then they were going to event though well he was he was or was he ideologically down to be Mar no no he just believed that it was going to work he was going to get arrested and

then they were going to come to his Aid okay you know he was going to get legal defense and he do all these other kind of things and but but as soon as he saw tippet soon as he saw tippet coming for him he killed TI he shot and killed tippet mhm and tippet is the police officer that he killed yeah right you know cuz tippet was assigned to go get him right and because he had too much knowledge you think they got Jack Ruby to kill him yes and Jack Jack Ruby Jack Ruby I think was maybe an mkl trip patient it wasn't required he was a mob guy you know I mean the mob guys were all into the assassination team and everything yes so it wasn't it didn't require brainwashing him or anything

yeah but it was really odd because he never recalled killing Lee Harvey Oswald and as soon as he kills him he going you know cuz all he's a Miami nightclub guy and all the cops around him are you know arresting him and he's going what are you doing I'm Jack Ruby and then in his jail cell for six months or whatever he doesn't recall you know ever having anything to do with the killing and then he's seen by Jolly West who we know is you know random kro was in correspondence with he also he also tried to get to talk to Earl Warren directly to tell him what what was really going on you know he Jack Ruby Jack Ruby did well that's why that's why you get Jolly West in there and Jo

Jolly West spends hours with him in his jail cell no no records of this and he comes out and he says Jack Ruby has had a psychotic break and Jack Ruby goes nuts and he says you know I'm I'm hearing Jews screaming on the other end of you know my jail cell I think they're dying or whatever and so to me that screams that at least at least there he was brainwashed I don't know about prior well what what I'm saying is that that the with aam's razor applying aams Razer it doesn't require all of that for him to be directed by the mob to to do the inial take out Oswalt correct get him the hell out

of there correct in fact it would probably imply he was lucid and had some knowledge if he were brainwashed by Jolly West which I think he was so maybe he was actually aware of what was going on when he killed him yeah and then they saw him as a liability and they had to take him out west So So the plan the plan was is to Simply have have uh have Oswald take the shot at Kennedy yeah uh flee run away get away and have tippet uhhuh kill him mhm and so they'd have the single The Lone Gunman

shot and killed and it' be over to be done with right which is the classic Mo that's how you do it right and but as soon as he saw tippet coming to see him he shot him and killed him MH uh and then continued to flee and realized that he was getting screwed CU he didn't know there were any other Shooters it is also when you read the transcript of Jackie O coming off Air Force One and being readed by Lyndon ban Johnson you know Johnson and JFK sort of hated each other by that time sure and uh I do see LBJ is sort of this ruthless guy president Lyndon Johnson has left the hospital

in uh Dallas but we do not know uh to where he has proceeded yeah he was that he was that and like you you hear I don't know what you just read the transcript of him speaking to Jackie O and she kind of runs into his arms and he's seems freaked out he's like they're going to get us they're going to get us all yeah and it to me it seems like liveaction role playing like a little bit fake Jo Jack valante Jack valand told me all about it okay Jack valante was with him okay so that's right Jack valand was with him he locked himself in the bathroom and Air Force One uh he locked he

locked himself in the bathroom and wouldn't come out and Jack Valente had to go and get him to take him out of there and he was going through this whole thing they're going to kill us all but he'd already been notified the previous night out at glint meron's house and there there at least three witnesses to testify to that so RFK Jr thinks that his father was not killed by Sirhan Sirhan he was shot from the back by a guy named Eugene th Caesar I've talked to Bobby about this at length who was coordinating with Bob Mayu who's Hughes his lawyer

yeah and so that's a that's a crazy Revelation and I think Eugene th Caesar goes on to become a a bodyguard at Skunk Works well he he got employed with Mayu right and Mayu Mayu was working with Suma Corporation my understanding is that he was working with mayi around the time mayi was clearly coordinating with him around the assassination and then Eugene th Caesar went on to work at Skunk Works but I could be wrong okay but yeah but but but I but I think it was I think it was Suma

corporation which is which is Hugh's operation Operation su su Corporation so yeah what what do you make of that I mean that's insane that's a pretty I try not to be insane uh no but it's just it's just like a bombshell like important you know thing that people need to know well it's uh it's interesting you know I've talked to Bobby about it and Bobby was going to go be meeting with the fellow to try to get him to do it and the guy insisted upon being paid you know $10,000 he wouldn't sit down and talk to Bobby at all and Bobby just blew him off who was the guy yeah

Eugene Caesar yeah exactly wow you know that I was a little surprised it seemed like it was worth 10 grand to yeah that seems worth 10 you although I could see not wanting to be out extorted out of pride your father's assassin that's that's what he did he said no I'm not I'm not going to go away yeah yeah but that it's it's a pretty crazy story and I think the other you know possibilities that Sirhan Sirhan himself was an MK Ultra patient because he had spent some time with William Jennings Bryan not to be confused with the 19th century William Jennings Brian but the Y guy who

was probably involved in MK Ultra and I think he was working at the Santana race we we we did the only case against MK alra that won you know we we actually we what case was that that there was there was a a woman who was the daughter uhu of a fell out on Long Island that was a tennis pro uhhuh uh and uh he he like some Tennis Pros was having affairs with some of the women the wives that were getting trained to be tennis players uh and his wife divorced him and he became totally

depressed uh about being abandoned like that and he started meeting with a friend of his who was a psychologist and the psychologist said you know uh you actually need to have a little bit more than just talking to a psychologist you need to get kind of more counseling so so a friend of mine uh works at uh remember which big hospital was big Hospital in New York City M uh something like SLO kering or one of those big yeah he said in the uh my friend works there and so you could go there uh and take a whole week be there in Residence and you can have a meeting with him

in the morning and meeting in the afternoon for each day for a week you know so he agrees to go do that well it turns out they were doing MK Ultra uh experiments there at the place and so that after about two days of of General uh counseling with the psychiatrist there they dose him with a huge mass of LSD without telling him uh and course he's totally freaked out I mean it's hard enough when you know what's happening right but he he was just freaked out and they told him falsely that he'd had a psychotic break mhm uh and that he would have to stay there for a little bit longer

and they would have to help figure out what's going on here and then like four days later they give him a second massive dose and he dies of a heart attack Jesus Christ okay uh and so they're freaking out at the place and so what they do is they they have to bring in lawyers from the Army and from the intelligence Community to come in to cover for them uh and it turns out that what was this guy's name uh uh I'm I don't remember his name I had other lawyers do this for us right

uh in in the bottom I've got it in the files but the the B the bottom line is is that the lawyer that came in for the US Army yeah to cover it up their involvement in this was Jacob javitz uhhuh who went on to become the United States senator from New York uhhuh uh and the other lawyer that was representing the intelligence Community was uh was uh Warren burer uhhuh who went on to become the Chief Justice the United States Supreme Court these two guys came in and covered up that entire event that took place and when we discovered that in the discovery uh the the

judge said that's it we're not going any farther on this case really this is going to settle you have her tell how much money she wants really and you will give it to her because Warren Burger had already become yeah head of the US Supreme Court no way yeah that's true that's wild that is true what do you think the purpose because I have some weird conspiracies about like what they tried to do with MK Ultra I don't know if you have any theories they they thought they thought that you know if you dose somebody with with LSD it will dissolve away yeah the boundaries yeah uh of

their concept structures you know and that if one of their concept structures is that they have to remain loyal and keep secret certain information that they've got that you'll dissolve those away and that under interrogation you can get them to come clean and talk to you so it started out as a as a device LSD to have a device of interrogation truth here but there there was I think more to it as well where they would construct killers and I think you know like if you look at Jolly West yeah you know he had his Center for violence reduction yes and the way I think it almost worked is like

so I think like Charles Manson was an MK Ultra Pati I have a buddy in La named Tom O'Neal I know that documents it pretty well and so you have to ask like why why would you make Charles Manson do what he did possibly and it was like maybe it was like to make an example out of him marginalize the uh you know the hippie movement and you know you have the famous Donna tart line you know August 8th 1968 or whatever is the or maybe 69 is the you know the day that the 60s ended and it

was like you know everybody really they see this long-haired guy and and he seems like a hippie but like actually super violent just well so you make it you make an example out of something that you want to marginalize and so it's sort of um Mass pacification through local violence creation or something it's conceivable but on the other like conceivable isn't the standard there's lots of things that are conceivable you know and there are a lot of them and and there say people fixate on something that is conceivable that happens to correspond to their worldview is there an MK Ultra

UFOs Stu there's all kinds of issues that are involved in Consciousness mhm uh in the states of Consciousness the elevation of consciousness all of that stuff which relates tangentially at least to the LSD you know uh that is involved in the UFO stuff the entire remote viewing process the entire psychic process the ENT all that all that stuff with how put off in in and with uh uh Russell tar and all those folks that whole element of Consciousness is a very big deal the UFO thing

is so confus using because okay you have different threads you have this like Consciousness thread where it's like I don't know if it's cabala or like certain people can summon this stuff but like you you sort of intend on the thing happening you know Greer has C5 or whatever the stuff sort of enters your orbit and like that feels different to me than like nuts and bolts craft oh it is okay it is but but it's all it's all part of a a specific phenomenon you know as long as

you confine it to looking at the UFO stuff and you know the fact that the UFOs appear to be navigated telepathically for example uh and that the that the craft have built into it some kind of an AI capacity to respond telepathically to the control of the of the pilot now that's pretty far out you know when you get into that stuff uh and uh so the whole question of of how telepathy works you know what what are the what are the physiological aspects of of telepathy like and remote viewing

you know I mean you know there stuff that Pat price could do you know I mean you know how the hell do you explain that yeah you know and and when you start focusing on that trying to get an understanding what that is uh you realize that there's do you think you can turn that into math or repeatable science or do you think it's this inherently kind of ephemeral thing no no no I I believe that it's it's reductional you know to some some subtle dimensions of physics there's not any doubt about it it's going on yeah and there's something to it or it would uh point to the human

as the carrier of all knowledge and there's something actually like the uh senses the the sensory world is actually a reduction on a default state of Greater omniscience and if you read Plato with more of a belief that maybe he believed in the ontological truth of what he was talking about and you read like The Myth of air or you know some other things he sort of hinted at maybe you know there's much deeper knowledge that's kind of latent and innate inside a human being all

true that is all true okay that is all true yeah I'm sure I'm sure that's true yeah and what I'm in the process of doing is and they know that I'm doing I mean you know Lou didn't just hire anybody yeah you know didn't retain just anybody to be his lawyer I mean he knew perfectly well that for 20 years I was legal counselor for the disclosure project he knew I represented Dr John Mack he knew that I was at the peer group that's interesting though that you represented both gerer and Alando cuz they hate each other right it's unfortunate why do they hate each other so much

cuz I it's unfortunate I Greer obviously you know both of them have uh their fair share of critics but um Greer to me like he's more right than like you know like I there's something about the presentation of the guy that I kind of detest or something like it's just sort of really ridiculous megalomaniacal and and yet like I I think a lot of the stuff he says he was early on so much and

you know why does anybody hate anybody if they really know I mean the more you know the more you forgive you know for why people do what they do you know that I don't I don't think people hating each other is is very constructive but I know know that it's not a good idea for uh for them to hate each other yeah uh that there's a there's a a constructive uh relationship that could be formed do you think Nixon was pretty interested in UFOs because there's a famous Jackie G gon thing yeah

I know about that that you know he was he was I guess I guess you could call it had more or less kind of a purian interest in it it was It was kind of this kind of itch that he had to kind of know but he was he was so involved in so many kind of low Consciousness things that were going on I think this was kind of above his not his pay grade but his kind of level of Consciousness that it was it was just something he couldn't probably figure out how to use it yeah you know politically he was very smart and very crafty and and just didn't fit into anything as far as he could tell I think five

men apparently caught in the act of burglarizing and bugging Democratic headquarters in Washington the Watergate thing just seems like so crazy and it seems like you know this like all these deeper layers than other people as to you know how how it went down I do and so what's your version of the story high level and then we can get into some of the you know deeper names and narratives and that sort high level is is that uh the key to it is that that there were four trafficante guys mhm

there was uh eh Howard hunt mhm who was the leaon to the uh to the Everglades operation in operation Mongoose he also said he was involved in the JFK assassination and he said that uh JFK was killed over UFOs well he his son says he said that he said it okay he didn't say and then and then uh and then Frank Sturgis MH was on the team that did the burglary MH he was the leaz on out on

uh on Swan Island okay for that group so the same s force guys they're s force guys right so those are both s force guys and the Cubans were s force guys MH and then they had mcord who was there who was the CIA wiretapping specialist okay and so when I was brought on to D Dallas once called mcord the best guy I ever had or something well in what Nixon said literally in this gun thing if you

peel off that scab there's an awful lot of stuff that could come out that we don't want out uhhuh and he was referring to hunt uhhuh okay and that whole Smoking Gun when you look at the Smoking Gun conversation on the 21st of June that with halman uh in Nixon on the tapes that uh that halderman comes into the office and says uh Mr President I think we've got a problem here he said what is it Bob he said uh uh Pat gray who's the New FBI director that had just been installed cuz Hoover had died uhhuh he say Pat gray uh has called and they got a problem uh that uh the FBI people are

insisting upon going down and investigating the bank down in Mexico City MH where those bills came from that were in Bernard Barker's pocket uh and he wants to know if that's going to cause any trouble the White House Nixon says uh Bob uh what I want you to do is I want you to go and get John erican I want you to have go over to the agency uh and I want you to see Vernon Walters uh in dick

Helms and you tell him right now to contact the to contact the FBI and tell him to get the hell out of that part of the investigation and halman says well you know what am I going to tell him to say and he said uh you just tell them uh if they dig into that part of this investigation all the Mexico stuff about the Cuban guys are all going to come out that's Waka that's the Cuban guys that are being trained in the assassination wow because that bank account where those monies came out of

where those bills were in Bernard Barker's pocket was in the bank account of this lawyer by the name of agario which is where they put the money from the skim off the casinos mhm through Marcelo in or New Orleans and into the Miami National Bank of uh of uh uh my Lansky so and they would wire it into the bank account down in Mexico City to pay the cost of that triangular fire team base that's where the money came from that was in the pocket of Bernard Barker so the question is if anybody

punched into that where does it lead to you know it leads to the Kennedy assassination MH right there in was terrified like don't peel off that he was terrified because the guy whose office they were in in the DNC mhm uh that uh that uh uh Larry O'Brien MH before becoming the new head of the DNC to run the campaign against Nixon in 72 had been the the major lobbyist in Washington DC for Howard

Hughes wow interesting and Nixon knew it Nixon went oh [ __ ] he said if if Larry O'Brien was told about what we did back in 1960 creating that assassination team yeah that's going to lead back to the fact that they're the they're the ones that killed the president cuz he knew they the ones that killed the president and there wasn't any way that he was going to be able to convince anybody that he wasn't behind it cuz he's the one that organized the assassination team that ended up killing the president and so he freaked out and he said you got to so you've got to get

that shut down you got to find out whether he's going to say anything about it really interesting so you go into his office I want you to bug his phones and I want you to he didn't say it there so his paranoia really did him in he was trying to overcorrect the fact that they trying to shut that thing down that's fascin okay and so that's why they went in and that's why you had to have guys from the shooter team that were in there because they had to know what they're looking for okay and nobody else could know what they were looking for so you couldn't bring anybody else to do it and you say what the hell are these traffic howy guys doing in there you know and so

that was the question I asked I was assigned to go back to Washington to monitor the hearings the Watergate hearings that were going on right and so uh they were going to have one of the hearing things and it was televised so I was sitting in the goldkey motel MH with my investigator the William Jonstone Taylor who was the Protegé I men to you to bat Andy tuni who headed up the the uh Mor Arian Associates investigative firm he's my guy right three tour Vietnam C Marine Corps guy

right and he's sitting there and and they they bring on uh they bring on to testify uh uh uh uh Jerry alch MH who was listed as the official attorney for James McCord and he comes on uh in Dan inaway uh and Hawai from Hawaii uh and uh what's his that from North Carolina Sam Irvin uh are interviewing him right and uh and uh Dan inway says uh Mr R she said you're partners with

you represent James mcord is that correct he said yes he said you're the law partner of Lee Bailey aren't you and he said uh yes yes I am he said now uh isn't Mr Bailey under indictment down in Florida on a charge of you know male and he said yes but that's going to be dismissed right away cuz I'd already filed the Motions to dismiss it which we won all right so he said well that's just going to be dismissed right away so they said yes but anyway he says well couldn't one get the

sense that uh Mr Bailey uh might be attempting to keep uh keep uh McCoy uh John James mcco from testifying in order to do a favor for somebody very high up in the administration in exchange for getting good treatment on his criminal case and uh and Jerry said yeah but but that isn't true you know and what happened is just as that testimony was come in Lee Bailey walks into the to the the hotel room where where we are he comes walking in and he's he's standing there listening

to this testimony and he hears the testimony uh and he turns around and walks out into the hall and we heard him slugging quarters into a payone which was totally weird because he used to carry this briefcase around that had a telephone in it uh and he would he would kind of move away from all of us and he go over to a place where nobody could be around and he would open up the suit gas he'd pull out the antenna and he would have this telephone that he could talk to somebody that he was talking to a bunch of times and we couldn't figure out what this was and even bad Andy didn't

know who that was right so so Billy so so he he just says that he goes out in the hall and we hear him hear him putting the coins in the phone and I turn to Bill Taylor I say what the hell is this all about and he said I don't know and I said find out okay and so he goes and talks to Bad Andy and then Bad Andy uh didn't want to tell him said no no he says you boys are you guys are are good boys you don't want to get involved in any of this kind of stuff he says and you don't say that to a

private investigator you don't really want to know so he said so say yes I do I I I want to know I he kept leaning on Bad Andy and bat Andy is the one that brought him into the private investigation firm because he's an old Marine Corps guy right so so so Billy keeps after him finally he says look here's the story uh it turns out that Lee is on index 4 for the agency he's one of the four attorneys MH that are on retainer for the Central Intelligence Agency so that if any CIA

operative is caught State Side engaged in a covert operation which is totally forbidden mhm by the National Security Act in 1947 MH uh that he's one of the lawyers that will be retained that's why James mcord has reached out to him this was after Watergate this is during the Watergate hearings yeah this is after water mcord was let off for for right like within four months was given one to five years mord is the guy that wrote the letter to judge CA blowing the whistle on Nixon exactly

and the plumbers guy that did that right out of our office yeah so that I'm I'm I'm sitting there so why wasn't Nixon set up in this in this model of what happened because McCord is this sort of deep CIA guy who's you know very close with Dallas because we know that Nixon is the one that ordered the Breakin he wasn't being set up he's the one that ordered the Breakin in order to see whether Larry they sold him out afterwards well so you have to separate up being so it wasn't done to

set him up up mhm okay but so so so what happened is mcord MHM mcord out of our office is the one that gets pissed off over the fact that he thinks they're all getting sold down the stream here MH uh and he saying what's the story he says look I was told that this was a because he wasn't briefed in got it got it he didn't know got it he was just putting the wiretap equipment and stuff in and he was told the reason they were doing this is because they thought that the that the DNC mhm was

helping to coordinate anti-vietnam demonstrations got it and that they were therefore engaged in National Security he thought he got sold out and he thinks he got sold out so he got pissed off about this and so he writes the letter to ca right that's what happened I mean and we know exactly what happened so when when when I find out when when Taylor gets all this information from Bad Andy they lay it out to us in detail you know he went down to Hank uh uh Hank uh G ales is Han Gonzalez is officially technically the the lawyer for trafficante he was just a cover for Bailey

right then who ends up helping out Woodward and Bernstein so deep that was Mark that was Mark felt so I still don't understand Mark Mark felt was getting he's the guy that was insisting upon going down the next morning to Mexico to investigate the bank account wow that was Mark felt he was going down to follow the money where did that money come from they tracked it back to that bank but if he's the deputy director of the FBI right Mark felt yeah and then he's acting as this sort of anonymous T tip off guy for you know Woodward and Bernstein at the Washington

Post doesn't that again Point towards this sort of coordinated effort against Nixon Nixon where he's sort of trying to trying to like expose this to the citizen press what was happening Mark Mark felt was still pissed off MH that he'd been passed over for uh for the the the head of the FBI right so he was that so pure pure it was pure renge SP because he was pissed off that they were trying to cut him off he was trying to go down and do that investigation legitimate

investigation of what the hell happened here and he and gray was telling him not to go okay because gray had called the White House and said look at uh you know i' I've got FBI people that are W to go down and do the do the investigation of this bank that's when that's when Nixon said tell go go get the agency to shut him off so tell them they can't do this so felt's motivation was basically you know he was pissed personally yeah and he wanted to do the investigation that would have led him to the original s force setup Stu so he so he would find well he didn't

know what it was going to lead to yeah yeah yeah but it would have and then and then James McCord was pissed that he was getting sold out that's right sold the river it was given you know not the right information as to why he was DNC that's exactly right very interesting and so and so that when we get this information from trafficante mhm Bill Taylor and I say holy [ __ ] you know look what we're in the middle of here yeah uh that we now know that in fact the assassination team that was created back in 1960 by Richard Nixon are the ones that killed the president isn't

it wild that a mob boss drug dealer knows more about the true history of uh American politics than the average American citizen oh no that's not surprising Ian it's not surprising almost anybody knows more than the average citizen of the United States it'd be surprising to somebody off the street do you think there was or could have been a uh CIA conspiracy to remove you from office I don't know uh I know many people think so uh I would say that I've had it

found it difficult to understand why the CIA which apparently had Advanced knowledge of the uh didn't inform me uh I found it difficult to understand how it could have been uh that at least two of those involved uh had CIA connections uh and nevertheless that uh it was not brought to my attention as far the break break in occurring here's another weird connection that um you might

this because you had this guy in John leer who's son of Bill leer whether he was a useful idiot or an agent provocator I don't know probably useful idiot I don't know but he had been spending a decade outside of Area 51 and you spend a decade outside of Area 51 the security guards know you there like this is all documented why the hell would they not do a basic background check on Bazar know that he's best friends with the guy camping out and you know sketching out sketching all these kind of exotic aircraft around Area 51 that would be number one number two why would you

continue to uh have him fly cargo jets for you you know and be be a be a pilot for you for various missions into the 80s which you know he says he disaffiliated in 83 but he really disaffiliated much later MH let me tell you a story to to make you even more confounded please right uh I'm at Jesuit headquarters here in Washington DC right and uh I get a call I get a call on the phone uh and it is uh uh what's his name guy that owned Rebel magazine and uh uh Larry Flint uhuh right

so I get a call from Larry Flint uhuh you you know who the this guy is Larry Flint's a guy that owned uh like like 30 m different magazines you know Rebel magazine and jent and these skin magazines and all this kind of stuff okay he he had gotten sued for liel because uh in one of the magazines that he published uh someone wrote a story uh uh using a woman who won the Miss you know Oklahoma or something uh beauty contest and so she filed a lawsuit against him uh in one and

the case had gone all the way to the United States Supreme Court and his lawyers were challenging it as a violation of First Amendment right he's coming into Washington DC to go to the court the Supreme Court argument he calls me on the phone he says dan he says Larry Flint here I went ah okay yeah okay Miss Flint what he said well I'm I'm coming in town for the Supreme Court I me I'd like to have a meeting with you if I could uh could you come and see me tomorrow uh I'm going to be staying at the Park Hotel uh uh so I say okay what's it about he said you I'll I can't

talk with you on the phone about it so so the next day I get Father William J Davis who is my Jesuit Superior at the headquarters right and we jump in the blue flame his little car is look we drive over to the hotel right and here are like four of these Big Stretch lmos all parked in front of this hotel which is the the Larry Flint Entourage that are all there right so we we go into the lobby uh and uh we say you know my name's attorney Dan she and Father Bill Davis were here to see Larry oh yes he said you know and they bring us over to this elevator uh and they they bring us up

original host Hostess of Frontline okay when first started y uh on on PBS right uh Jessica Savage her name was and she and her husband had driven off a a bridge uh in the middle of some storm and he gotten drowned and killed uhuh and uh he said I think that that was a murder uhhuh uh and I want to retain you guys to do the investigation you guys did the Caren silkwood investigation you've

done all these kind of things so I said no well we don't you know we're a 501c3 public interest group you know we don't get hired to do investigations uh I said you could make a contribution to us if you wanted to yeah it's all tax deductible and I said and uh we could then look into this if if we figure out that there's some sort of major public interest thing here that this was a murder and she's a major reporter and there's something important uh you know we could then you know make that public uh and he said well would you do this would you just let me know first so I

could publish it in my magazine In Rebel magazine uh and uh and uh I'll give you guys the million dollar contribution and uh I said I I think we could do that said but but there's one thing he said uh I've got an investigator that I'd like to have work with you on this I said no no no no that's not how we do it you know we've got our own investigators because I I had not only the the guys Bill Taylor and the guys that were in Mor arti so who still kept doing stuff for us for free but I also had all the Jesuit guys 42 countries all around the world that are giving information

to our headquarters right so I said no no I said we'll we'll do this to ourselves you know just let me let me introduce you to them right and he he dials the phone and the door opens up and in walks G Gordon ly walks walks into the room and I looked at him uh and he comes over and he sticks his hand out like that and I said excuse me I said you know uh that I told you I told you we're not going to be dealing with anybody that you un and especially him and lydy turned to Flint he said see I told you I told you he wouldn't do it so we we say no we're not going to do this and uh

we don't know whether he was going to give us the million dollars or not so I go downstairs uh and I down the elevator and I'm starting to walk out of the hotel all of a sudden somebody H and says Mr Sheen Mr Sheen and I said yes yeah what is it and I go over and it was Gordon Noel who is that ah good you don't know no Gordon Noel is the guy that was arrested and prosecuted by James Garrison in New Orleans for burning down 555 Camp Street the office where where uh where uh Lee Oswald

well had the office along with uh uh what was his name uh the guy that was the hardcore right-wing guy that was the head of the Latin American uh uh anti-communist League uh one of the the guy that was the former FBI guy that was down in New Orleans the heck was that guy's name but anyway he had an office in the same in the exact same building MH on the exact same floor whoa with him

and and Gordon Noel was prosecuted and convicted for burning down that building MH in the midst of uh in the midst of the investigation that's crazy okay and so it gets crazier okay so he says uh I I want you to represent me I want to get that that criminal conviction of me uh expunged and I said well you've already been convicted of it you know and that was years ago you know and you've already

served the time and everything for it uh he say you don't do that he said no no I just want to I want you to you know get that expunged for me and so I said uh I like I don't I don't know anything about it but you know here's my card you can call me if you're so I go back to the office and a few days later he calls and he says how's that investigation going and I said no I said I haven't agreed to the investigation he said what you son of a [ __ ] he said you know I I I confided in you you and he he he started he threatened to kill me Gordon Noel right MH well Gordon Noel ends up

later being hired by John Alexander whoa to be one of the investigators for nids wow to go around you know trying to make people who are contactees come and give them the information and he's a spotter for people who are getting abducted through my lab crazy abductions right and that's him okay and so Gordon Noel years later and you're implying that he was kind of part of the cover up of the JFK assassination I'm just telling you what the facts are well the facts are weird that the facts are

weird burned down 555 cam stre which was being used as what by Lee Harvey Oswell that was an office for the the uh uh uh free free Cuba group okay the the the alleged Cuba group uh in this guy Ben or Bert whatever his name was had his office right next door to him so Gordon noville pops back up as this UFO he pops well later because this I'm out 1994 I'm out you know representing Dr John Mack and I was asked to do a presentation at the international UFO Congress uhuh so I'm doing

a report on the international UFO Congress and all of a sudden Gordon Noel walks up out of the crowd uhuh and says Oh Mr Shen he said look you know I've got I've got all these uh drawings and stuff about the UFOs and how they're propulsion system works and all that kind of stuff you know and he starts showing them to me and he said you know I've been working on these things and had a lot of time when I was in in prison to do this and I'd like to have you represent me to you know get get my stuff patented here he says that's Gordon Noel and I'm saying excuse me I said I

don't I don't think you quite remember you know you're threatening to kill me yeah you know number of years ago wow he says I I didn't really mean that you know and I said and that was the last I had anything to do with him okay so what does all that mean you know what is exactly does all that mean you know that what what I just sort of put it on the wall yeah it's one of the cards on the wall yeah you know to see you know where and you have the threads you know the nylon threads that you put between the Cards and figure out what's going on here but uh but there's lots of weird stuff lots of weird stuff lots of weird pieces and those are all little

data points because I know those things to be absolutely true but you know the reality is is that uh during the Ken silwood case that we did you know that uh Karen silkwood is this young 29-year-old uh uh health and safety person at a nuclear uh reprocessing plant it wasn't a nuclear power plant it was the sole place where they were trying to bring the spent fuels from the 103 nuclear power plants uh and then grind it all up into powder and then put put it in centrifuges

and centrifuge out the plutonium then recover the plutonium and then bring it to the fast flux test facility at Hamford you know it was an attempt to to figure out what to do with the waste materials the bottom line is that she discovered that they were missing 40 lbs of uh 98% bomb grade plutonium from this facility and she just concluded that it must meant that they were really sloppy that they must have been be loose around the planet around the plant somewhere you know and she didn't so she

called the uh the union people that were trying to organize the Union at the plant and told them that oh look how sloppy they are they're missing 40 pounds of 98% P plutonium was going to Israel to for nuclear weapons uh in violation of the nuclear arm proliferation treaty really yeah and not only that but they had to then share it with Iran a condition under the shaw uh and then the two of them had way yeah it was all true you know and uh who facilitating this on the American side Central

Intelligence Agency Theodor shackley who was the temporary guy on the Israeli desk you know but but he had been the former Saigon station chief that ran the assassination program in Southeast Asia too but but so that what I'm saying is that she didn't know what was happening but that when when she got killed on the way to meet with the new New York Times Reporter to bring him the documents of David Burnham who was figuring there's some rat in the wood pile here somewhere this isn't just missing in the plant uh and then she got killed run off the road they rammed her car and ran her

off the road and killed her and took the documents out of the car and this is a real story this is a really true thing that happened and I was in charge of the investigation to investigate what happened uh and uh what what uh people came up with all kinds of Nefarious theories as to what could have happened here and who could have done this and all that and I had to keep drilling through all of these different theories of what's going on here to figure out exactly what did happen uh and what what I discovered is that the you know people what they've assumed they

assumed at least half a dozen different theories of what was going on and what I discovered is that a little bit of two or three of the different theories were true but no one of them was true but the there were pieces of what each of them had that that they're the ones that really came together to explain what actually had happened uh in in what I've discovered that over and over and over again what's your process I feel like you have to hear something and then catalog everything is like possible possible but low probability and then you wait for corroboration well it it

comes from I I was trying I think people a priori discount things they hear too much because they're too epistemically closed so they're like it's like beijan reasoning where it's it's all based onii PRI prior evidence but if you have this like a bias every time you hear somebody say hey I saw a weird thing in the sky your beijan reasoning is going to be totally off because you're just putting this in the junk pile when it shouldn't be it should just be like you're open to everything the the person that I had trained me in this is is Lawrence tribe uh Larry tribe who is now renowned

as the leading American constitutional lawyer you know uh but he was a Suma kumla mathematics graduate from Harvard College uh and then went and got his PhD Suma kumla from Harvard in mathematics uh in at the age of 25 was the head of the United States Bureau of Statistics at the age of 25 this guy uh and he got bored with that after a few years and decided he was going to law school went to Harvard Law School became the captain of the The Varsity debating team for Harvard University

and still end up number two in his class at Harvard Law School you know I mean this guy's totally brilliant guy uh and he he started out teaching evidence at Harvard and started explaining to us how you go about setting out your your options uh in Bay's theorem uh in the whole thing and he started he started explaining that's right from the very beginning yeah when when I when I learned that and then ended up at at fle Bailey's office where I had access to 40 class

a licensed private investigators yeah I could put that kind of investigative skills together with working through these different theorems of what's how things are going and so that's how I've ended up being I guess it might account for how I end up in these peculiar places yeah because I've I've been able to not get drug off onto some one theory of something I try to do the same thing and I think being outside of Academia helps us yes because Academia you become criticized and you

have to kind of tiptoe around anything too bold or too because they're not they're not designed to really forward the human knowledge in any kind of significant way it's all nibbling at the edges I was just with Eric Weinstein and a bunch of other you know pretty renowned scientists and you know I've worked with Eric for a while and Eric is using beijan basic beijan reasoning and you know he's obviously has his own sort of Theory of Everything in math and physics Y is has come to the conclusion that he thinks maybe there's a good chance that the US has a

secret physics program behind you know the kind of exoteric layer of physics which is that's a wild Revelation that he said names people John John Wheeler Bryce dwit uh Freeman Dyson people like that who were you know renowned in the 50s and 60s and he thinks that maybe there was something going on in the background with them and maybe they were actually inter facing more with Aerospace than meets the eye even Fineman yep um and so yeah it's very interesting the conclusions you come to once you become open-minded yeah uh and I think for a lot of people it took the New York

Times and the Pentagon saying this stuff is real for them to kind of open the possibility space on everything else CU it this if it is real it has to shatter everything else you have to be physics you know religion everything it has to affect you and the one argument I'd say against not trying to piece it all together I think I do think having one Theory of Everything um allows you to you know you want you want if you have a bunch of high strangeness events a bunch of

anomalies it's like you have big foot here and you have orbs over there and cattle mutilation and all these things it's really hard for the average person to not just say that's a basket of crazy it's like an it's an amalgamation of crazy that doesn't fit neatly to you know science is supposed to be repeatable and predictable yeah and so I do think the theorizing does help get get this stuff across the line yeah and the in the that my usually that I I'm involved in a

litigation you know that requires you know you're going to have to put the stuff in front of a jury and you're going to have to have follow the rules of evidence and you're going to have to have the judge sitting there on your face you know trying to keep you from putting things in that he or she just doesn't want in in you know because they think that that uh they have their own judgment that that might not be realistic or true and so they don't want you putting it in front of the jury because they think they're in charge of the courtroom you know there's all kinds of things you have to do but but it lends a certain kind of focus to what you're doing uh and you you you

you don't just aimlessly speculate about things given that sometimes I think the metaphysical conversations are frustratingly unfalsifiable they're not they're they're sort of not even wrong as fan would say and so there's almost a part of me it's like we should look back at this history in the 50s and 60s in the US where there's some interesting people claiming Robert J Oppenheimer set up UFO secrecy like Rush has said that on record in an interview with me let's talk to his grandchildren let's talk to you know anybody who was alive at that time and try to corroborate that

there's something about uh renowned scientists we just spent $130 million on a Christopher Nolan movie about this guy he's like a you know the emblematic kind of American scientist midcentury yeah if he had anything to do with the UFO story any Smoking Gun evidence around that would be this massive update I think for the average person who's just seen that movie and is interested in this character yeah and so I do think sometimes the conversations are sort of frustratingly woo woo and we could we could just move it into this territory of like okay but what what about

Oppenheimer you know what about these people yeah well the this this is all an phological question you what what is the methodology that a given person utilizes to try to determine for themselves what's true uh and what's not you know and and the reality of it is is that 99% of the people don't have the time or the the disposition to be trying to find out things for themselves yeah and so that they just have certain author it figures that they look to that tell them you know

and you're trained to that yes you know from the time you're in school oh your teacher is the one that knows here's Mr policeman who's coming in to show you how you get across the street safely and they're the ones that you need to rely upon or the media here's here's the the you know here's the New York Times or here's NBC you know and what they do is they offer to you uh different uh epistemological sources of authority and the people do not do not engage in trying to figure F things out for themselves not at all okay and so given given that reality what happens is the that

when you introduce into that setting a National Security State such as we did at the end of World War II where we set up a Central Intelligence Agency and that their job is to deceive people and to try to engage in a uh a a greedy aoristic world domination endeavor you know and view themselves in this dialectic with the Soviet communism uh who they think is trying to take over the world too

and they're projecting their Shadows on each other you know uh and you start to distort uh reality uh intentionally yes uh and then what they do is they target the epistemological sources of authority and penetrate them what I've been doing all the time is I I just take in the information take in the information store it way put it as a card up on the wall do you know who Dr Eric Walker is no um well there was a you know Robert sarbacher do you know that name or there uh sarbacher is

a guy who's an atomic energy expert and he was working at the Washington National Labs there were rumors that maybe he had taken over parts of you know the Manhattan Project post Oppenheimer in the ' 50s and he was closely coordinated with Tom Thomas towns and brown and he was definitely involved in some weird stuff you know he would put uh cameras on these sort of modified V2s and they would try to take photos of UFOs it was a sophian effort that didn't end up sort of working out 1987 this um UFO researcher named William Steinman writes to him and he says you know was

there actually a UFO program I need to know blah blah blah blah and uh sarbacher says the rumors about the UFO crashes are fundamentally correct quote unquote and I say that because fundamentally correct was actually kind of nomenclature between him and Thomas Townsen Brown where if you say substantially correct or fundamentally correct um you were saying you're probably right on the surface level but you're wrong on like just about everything else or something right and then he goes on to say you know you know V but you know Von noyman Oppenheimer vanar Bush were all

involved in this core program in the 40s and 50s and I actually do know a guy who might you know be able to point you in the right direction right now and he describes a guy who kind of matches the description of this guy Dr Eric Walker who's an engineer at uh and he's actually the president of Penn State and so they go and and they go into Eric Walker's office and they're like do you know anything about the UFO stuff and he looks at them cold call right yeah yeah yeah he just

appro approach right here I just happened to walk in and ask you yeah yeah yeah well he probably had office hours cuz the University president probably used to meeting people and um he he starts he gets like kind of shocked but then he kind of regains his composure and he goes yeah I've known about this for a long time and he's like but I would know if you guys were clued in and I know you're