“I Found Hitler’s Secret UFO Program!” -Jason Jorjani

>> One year later, what happens? Roswell. I mean, is the idea that there is some sort of like Atlantean surviving remnant group that's still there? >> So, for all we know, what's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is contacting itself in the past, >> trying to pull the timeline towards itself or something. >> Actualize itself, transmporize itself. demand. Thank you so much for for coming

on and you know we just launched an episode and people are are absolutely loving it. So check that out part one. Uh but there's so many other threads I wanted to get into and I I left that conversation thinking that there was a lot that was left kind of unsaid and we could have gone on for hours. So I'm very excited to do this. You're one of the few thinkers I know uh who doesn't just sort of uh know a bunch of random disperate facts around the phenomenon but tries to piece them together into

some sort of coherent worldview which is kind of a a herculean task. Um but you're attempting to to do that and I I can't think of too many other I mean Jacqu filet might be another one. Um but there aren't too many thinkers trying to do that. So this is very cool. >> Thank you. You know, that made me think of something that actually, you know, would probably be a good preface to this because I think that one of the most significant crises that we face in our

civilization and, you know, in the world at large is the decline of philosophy. Um the the reduction of philosophy to academic scholasticism and logic uh and the lack of uh deep serious broadspectctrum thinking that would be capable of for example tackling the close encounter phenomenon >> right I mean obviously it should be

philosophers who are engaging both with the data of close encounters and parasychological data uh in fact you know there were people in philosophy um who played a fundamental role in development of parasychology at its outset. Both William James and Henry >> were among the founding parasychologists in the era of psychical research. >> In fact William James was the president of the society for psychical research uh in the 1870s. So he was

>> and Bergson was as well later on in the 1910s or something like that. >> There you go. and and and this is a time when parasychology wasn't relegated to quacky circles and you know newagy conferences you have bergan was was debating Einstein at the time and so he was considered a worthy debate partner for Einstein who himself wasn't you know fully accepted by mainstream science but was very well respected yes and James had predicted uh in the era when he was

the president of the society for psychical research that this would be the next great scientific revolution >> right what I in my writings have called the spectral revolution and it didn't >> and you know in my first book from atheist and atlas I ventured a um you know a basically theory of why it didn't happen and uh that's because of the extremely serious psychological and sociological implications of mainstream

acceptance of things like telepathy clairvoyance and so forth. And so, you know, it's not only essential for philosophers to engage with the onlogical and epistemological questions inherent in parasychological data or close encounter um phenomena, but also the ethical and political ramifications. And this brings me to what I wanted to say in response to to your opening, which is that I've made an argument now in several of my books that it's definitional to the

type of the philosopher to develop concepts that cut across all of the major domains of philosophy from ontology and epistemology to then an ethics and a politics that follow from that. ontological and epistemic thinking and then also I think aesthetics is very important from the time of Plato onward there's been this idea that uh the cultivation of aesthetic discernment and the capacity to perceive the beautiful

or the sublime is also another pathway to knowledge >> and perhaps to a kind of knowledge that transcends or undergards ructive rationality. Right. And and in particular, I think that aesthetic judgment is very closely connected to ethics and it's something that you know Nichzche understood, Frederick Nze understood very well. >> Yeah. He says I there's some quote I'm going to butcher it but it's like life is only eternally justified in its aesthetic form or something and he yeah

he he fully believed that >> and Nze wasn't alone. I mean look if you I mean Kant is well known for being a very principled uh hyperrational advocate of this cris crystalline universal ethics >> but K if you ask me Khan's most interesting work is his aesthetic work and it's in his aesthetics and his third critique critique of judgment that you can see the connection between Kant's interest in the occult >> and Kant's development of this universal

ethics Then for example, Hegel has an entire account of how you can see the evolution of human consciousness or what he called spirit through changes in aesthetic styles, changes in uh you know artistic expression from epoch to epoch and how they reflect the evolution of the perceptive and cognitive capacities of humanity. So okay my point is that to be a philosopher you really have to be thinking across

all of these domains and developing concepts that cut across them above all because you cannot have any unquestioned presuppositions. M so you could be the most brilliant let's say metaphysician right and someone who's developing a very rigorous epistemology but if you have unquestioned political presuppositions it's going to be tacidly warping your ontology and epistemology

>> and if you want to really be a philosopher you know which is to say someone who from the era of Socrates onward was defined by boundless, limitless and and thoroughgoing >> You you uh really cannot give yourself the luxury of unquestioned assumptions in any area. >> Right? So I mean this has very serious implications for religion obviously because it means that it's definitional to a philosopher that he or she I consider iron rand for

example to be a real philosopher in this sense uh he or she cannot accept any >> you it is definitional to a philosopher that you cannot adhere to a religious belief system >> other I mean you are uh crippling yourself and your you know your basically capacity to question and develop concepts from the outset if you have any kind of a religious commitment. >> So would you say St. Thomas Aquinas not a philosopher? >> Exactly. So the entirety of medieval

European philosophy is not philosophy and none of these people were philosophers and also in Iran you know I spent a lot of time um >> both studying Iran >> and also making significant contributions to Iranian studies. my book, Iranian Leviathan is a tome >> on the history of Iran from Zarathustra to the Islamic Republic. And so what this also means is that this whole era that's that's um misnamed the Islamic Golden Age, which really was like an

Iranian renaissance from the 1100 from the 900s to the 1100s, >> really doesn't have very many philosophers involved with it because these people were essentially Islamic theologians of the type of Thomas Aquinus. Like for example, uh Alarabi. >> Um, Al Farabi goes to the extent of equating Muhammad with Plato's ideal of the philosopher king, which is an absolute travesty. The only thinkers in

that era that really uh exemplified the type of the philosopher were, for um, uh, Razi, uh, whose writings almost completely were destroyed by various, you know, inquisitors. uh later on once the Turks came in and and resolidified uh Islam in in Iran um and maybe Shahabardi but it means that that whole period in Iran very much like Europeans medieval

so-called philosophy really doesn't pass muster but why am I getting into all this the point is that >> it seems almost as if we're entering another dark age now >> uh with the lack of substantive philosophical thinking and fewer and fewer individuals who really pass muster as exemplary of the type of the philosopher in the way that let's say in the 20th century we had Martin Haidiger Jean Paul

um Ludvik Vickenstein and other really uh deep thinkers. >> So a philosopher can't be an extension of state power or religious power is is is sort of what you're you're getting. I mean to play devil's advocate you have philosophers like Leo Strauss also mid >> not a philosophy so you would say not a >> Strauss said so Strauss literally said >> I am not a philosopher do not call me a philosopher I'm a professor of philosophy and a political thinker >> but in Straussian double speak that

could mean I am a philosopher so it's >> he meant he meant it and the more shocking thing that Strauss said was at the same time as he made the statement he said Martin Haidiger is the only living philosopher >> which coming from out of the mouth of a Jew was is quite a striking statement right I mean >> Haidiger having been a highle Nazi >> but wouldn't a Straussian read on many past philosophers be that >> many of them had to exceed to kind of the conventional thought of the time but then secretly they could hold their own

kind of heretical beliefs so like you know I'm trying to think of a good example like was you know one of the enlightenment era you know Francis Bacon not really a philosopher, kind of a philosopher, but like you know he would say things like you know we need empiricism to prove out God's secrets or to you know understand the divine nature of the world and reality and the Straussian read on that is like he's sort of a deist or an atheist and he doesn't believe in God at all and he's just sort of you know uh placating and

paying lip service to you know the establishment power. >> Well I think that through careful study that could be verified. So you brought up the case of Francis Bacon. There is a theory that uh will I am shake spear >> is a pen name for Sir Francis Bacon. >> People think that. >> Okay. Now if someone were to engage in an exhaustive philosophical analysis of the works of Shake Spear >> Uh and be able to prove that that was indeed a literary persona of Sir Francis >> Then I think a very good case could be

made that Francis Bacon was a first- rate philosopher. Yeah. because there's an ethics, there's a political philosophy in Shakespeare, you know, and you could reconstruct that. So that would be a case of an actual philosopher engaging in esoteric writing in order to express the full range of his thought. >> Do you believe that Shakespeare was in fact Francis Bacon? >> I think it's possible. I think there's an argument there. I I I don't have the range of Shakespeare scholarship to anywhere close to it to be able to assess that. I think it was like you know there are all these kind of occult

references like in King Lear or something like these you know things >> forgot the exact argument but it was like Stratford upon Haven wasn't super far from where Bacon was and then you know all these things are mentioned like 33 times and who knows but >> I mean look it's clearly >> Bacon was prolific you know >> will I am >> I am will >> you know the will I am the will >> shake spear the shaking of spear, right? >> Is clearly a pseudonym.

>> for someone who was an incredible >> So, who the hell was that guy like at that time who was living and you know who maybe uh expressed his genius in other ways as in the scientific writings of of B and then there's the New >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it could be look but my point is this that that's one thing but if you're a philosopher who's let me rephrase that if you're a metaphysician who's afraid to express a political philosophy

because you might be persecuted by the religious authorities of the day and you just don't uh put pen to paper you know in any way even even let's say as a set of secret writings that you consign to somebody to be posterously published. If you just never put pen to paper to express any kind of coherent political philosophy or ethics that follows from your ontology and epistemology, you're not a philosopher. You're a coward. Okay? And so, for example, in Iran, we had an example of somebody like that was uh who has they call him abenna in the

west, great metaphysician. maybe he has some ethics, >> but he did not develop a coherent political philosophy, which uh as I see it disqualifies him as the type of the >> And he made a deathbed confession. When we first started selling merchandise at we had no idea how complicated and annoying selling merch could be. We talked to a dozen different platforms and companies comparing shipping tools, payment options, website builders, and

it all felt like way more of a headache and [music] complicated than it should be. We decided on Shopify, and within days, our store was up. Everything was running cleanly in an automated way, so we could just focus on the brand and the vision we had for it. That's when it hit us. Ideas don't scale on inspiration alone. They need a structure, a container. Shopify provides that structure. [music] It quietly powers millions of creators and brands, about 10% of all United States [music] e-commerce. From big names like Gym

Shark and Mattel to solo creators building from their bedrooms, [music] Shopify made it simple to build a store that actually feels authentic to us, which matters when your brand lives in a niche like alternative tech, UFOs, or fringe science, and when you have a very clear brand vision. Plus, their AI tools help write descriptions, organize products, even clean up photos so we can focus on what matters and what we care about. Building the best custom merch line possible with the coolest designs like our UFO cowboy tea and [music] the

Atomic Age T. Plus, Shopify handles all of the unglamorous, more painful stuff. Shipping, returns, email marketing, all in one clean dashboard. It's like having a silent partner [music] who never sleeps. Our favorite part of the product is the dashboard, which gives us complete demographic information. We can see where our orders come from, making it easy to know who our most loyal, consistent customers are around the world. That's just one example, but Shopify really makes your life easier. Bring your next idea to life with

Shopify quietly handling everything behind it. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start today at sse for [music] a $1 a month trial. Again, that's just $1 a month to try Shopify, the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce, saying that, you know, these bastard Islamic clerics have made it impossible to think freely in this country. >> And that I had to basically dissimulate

and and warp all of my ideas and and my writings out of constant fear of persecution by the authorities. So he did say that before he died. >> Okay. I want to >> to be a philosopher you you have to risk that and you have to be willing to be turned into a human torch like Jordano Bruno on the town square of Rome or Socrates or Pythagoras who had his schools burned down in his own lifetime. >> Oh, I didn't know that about Pythagoras. >> Yeah. I mean some say he died in the fires. Others say he barely escaped with his life and died from injuries shortly

thereafter. But Pythagoras was the first one to be martyed in the history of philosophy and then Socrates and then they almost killed both Plato and >> Plato went to Syracuse to try to convince this tyrant uh Dianisis to become a philosopher chain as he had you >> outlined in Republic. Um and basically the entire court of Syracuse conspired against Plato and he had to escape by boat in the middle of the night. Narrowly escaped with his life. uh and then Aristotle willingly left

Athens because there was a plot to have him prosecuted also. >> So this is endemic to the history of >> When was this pre-tutoring Alexander the Great or or post or >> It was pre because Alexander was younger, right? And then and they say by the way out that Alexander didn't like >> Why didn't he like him? ran a think tank in addition to being like a a philosopher, you know, engaged in his own individual exploration and and contemplation. He had essentially

like the the prototype of the Rand Corporation in classical Greece and various other citystates would come to him and uh he would write their constitutions for them secretly. You know, you don't want to tell your people that their constitution comes from some guy's think tank in Athens. if you're living in Corinth or you know Sparta or whatever but they would come to him and he would write and part of his political philosophy that informed his writing constitutions for various citystates >> was that we should always have a political plurverse. He was very much

against one unifying government. He Aristotle was the first uh serious thinker to critique the idea of world >> And so for example, he was very wary of the Persians >> who wanted to establish a kind of uh you >> humanistic one world order, right? >> Well, uh Alexander actually had great reverence for the Persians. In particular, his hero was Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. M >> uh the first thing he did when he got to Iran was he he had them take him to the

tomb of Cyrus so that he could pay his respects to Cyus the Great. And eventually uh Alexander became convinced that the Persians had the right worldview and that the whole uh earth and all of its cultures should be unified into a single cosmopolitan order which eventually was reflected in the culture of the city of Alexandria that was named after him in Egypt became like the cosmopolitan bastion of the world right so this is diametrically opposed to Aristotle's thinking >> you know Alexander becomes the exemplar

of the idea of the one world order and you know Aristotle is the first uh critic of it. >> That's so fascinating when things like that happen. Modern example of that would be like George Soros and Victor Orban who's kind of a mentee and mentor and like Soros is obviously all about spreading as much democracy as possible. Orban was kind of his understudy and then now you know it's totally split off and is you know basically the tip of the spear when it comes to European >> Yeah. and uh you know that's it almost

feels Shakespearean in some ways. Now that's the other thing about the type of the philosopher which is very >> is the relationship between the philosopher and the state frankly you cannot be a nationalist and be a philosopher. >> Okay. So any philosopher who seems like a nationalist like says a Martin Haidiger right who literally was you know a Nazi functionary >> they're engaging in I was about to say

Straussian rather in platonic dissimulation and some kind of a noble >> So do you think Haidiger was not a real >> No. Haidiger was not a real nationalist. >> Was not a real nationalist. >> And when you study Haidiger deeply you see that it's very clear. but only to someone with an esoteric eye for it and who can think together with him on a deep level, understand what he's really >> So, he was trying to use the German state in a certain way. uh that had to

do with his understanding of the threat posed to humanity by modern technology and a way that he thought that the German state could be shaped to confront the instrumentalizing and mechanizing threat of modern technology >> to shepherd technological development in a certain direction that would prevent the um instrumentalization of humanity and our alienation from our existential essence, right? So, but the

deeper question is is this like I mean Socrates was executed by the Athenian state, right? And in his uh discourse on the arts and sciences, Jeanjac Rouso says that the Athenians were justified in doing this because the guy was a menace to the social order and to the political uh cohesion of Athens >> and that any thinker has to um has to basically reconcile himself to the sovereignty of the state and to like uh

basically accommodating the social order, Right. So, Rouso actually thinks the philosophers, you know, pose this like fundamental uh, you know, um, enimical challenge to state power. >> And I think that on some level he's right. But the irony also is that especially in grave crises and what Carl Schmidt called states of emergency, >> I think it's also the philosophers of a people who can save a people. M you know a a nation that lacks a philosopher or

lacks deep thinkers in a moment of grave crisis is not going to make it. >> Mhm. Mhm. No, that feels very right to me and it feels like the modern world has very few. I think of big philosophers today and you know you're sort of one of them and then you have you know guys like Slavo Jizek or whatever who's you know super too postmodern for my taste but you know he's at least attempting and then I don't know even Jordan Peterson in my mind who I think he sort of falls prey

to it's like narcissism of small differences between him and postmodernism because I think his his stuff sort of melts into a postmodern gobblelygy [ __ ] or whatever but he's he's trying he's you know read all the right stuff or whatever. But there are very few philosophers who are uh very ambitious. You know, I think most philosophy professors at universities just give you these very conventional kind of lame um limited by modern reads of these past philosophers and

you're sort of supposed to there's a great um actually essay by NZ um called on history and he talks about undigested stones of knowledge and it feels like that's what they're they're just they're just passing on these undigested stones of knowledge. They're not actually processing any any of what they're saying. Yes, in that essay that's incredibly important essay it became fundamental to H highaidiger's thinking and Haidiger basically quotes it at the beginning of being in time and it also has become very important to my work >> in particular that book Iranian

leviathan that I mentioned the subtitle is a monumental history of mithra's >> and that term monumental history is from that essay of niche the uses and abuses of history for life >> and uh he basically says that there's three modes of history. >> One is antiquarian history which is what traditionalists do where they glorify the past right and like the ultimate form of this is the Hindu or ancient Greek worldview where there was a golden age and then it decayed into a silver age and a bronze age and so and so history is declining right and all we

can do is try to hold on to fragments of the past to the better days and to preserve as much of our heritage as possible I mean it's conservatism >> in an ontological sense Then there's critical history which is what these POMO people do like you're just mentioning XEK right is like you know probably yeah the greatest living exemplar of postmodern philosophy right >> and u critical history is all about deconstructing power structures and

showing how uh basically every institution and even every structure of knowledge was ultimately the product of a power game that somebody was thing and that it benefits either some class interest or institutional interest or you know is a product of rivalry between uh nations or ethnicities and so on and so forth and that it's all oppressive and it should all be deconstructed. It's like pouring acid on history and the achievements of of all people throughout time, right? And and Nietze says, "Okay, to be fair,

under really oppressive conditions that are resulting in social sterility and that are hampering innovation and novel cultural development. A little bit of critical history is a good thing because it breaks up oified structures and it allows creativity to be unleashed again." Right? >> So Michelle Fuko is a great example. Michelle Fuku is the ultimate critical historian. I mean that was basically his project. Everything's a power game. Yeah. [snorts] >> Uh and with all these histories that he engaged in including history of sexuality, you know, history of the

prison system, history of psychology and then and his own personal life who sort of, you know, was who's kind of a pervert to be honest and and I think it was kind of an expression of the morality that comes from that kind of >> I'll tell you what's also an expression of that is that Fuko endorsed Ayatollah and the Islamic Revolution in Iran. M I mean how lost do you have to be in postmodern nonsense that you think it's a liberation to help a misogynistic theocratic repressive regime come to power right anyway so that's critical

history and then the last modality of history that NZ discusses in that essay which is the one that he personally embraces and that I have and that that's been very important to my work is monumental history >> which is the idea that >> monumental izing certain past achievements, turning certain historical figures into icons that can continue to provide inspiration and having essentially a folkloric approach

one's heritage. >> Mhm. So that it doesn't become an oified tradition but it becomes a source of uh where you can um dynamically adopt and adapt your heritage for future >> That's vital to the life of a people. And he says that it's like you know a tree whose branches can only grow toward the sun of destiny if it's deeply rooted in the earth and its roots are healthy underground. And that underground is the

>> It's that you know monumental history is nourished from out of the subconscious >> and not everything in the past of a people uh has to be or should be rationally dissected and understood. >> that we we need to maintain a kind of subconscious connection to the mythic >> of our heritage as a wellspring for continued creativity both in the arts and the sciences. >> Yeah, I love that. He's so inspiring

when you read him. I like, you know, he is he seems very irrational and kind of iconoclastic and uh maybe a little crazy, you know, in his personal life and stuff. And so Kichi was almost like the first incel or something. But uh but he was also just so inspiring. You read his work and it's it's it's full of vitality in life. So it felt like this weird juxosition. You had his you know kind of personal life which he was kind of you know withering away and then then you have the writing which was so vital. I love him. I feel a very deep affinity to Nichze. I'd say Plato, Nietze and

Haidiger are probably the three philosophers who most deeply impacted my own thinking. M well you mentioned the Rand Corporation. We're in Santa Monica right now near the Rand Corporation. I believe Rand stands for R&D research and development. It was formed in I believe the mid to late 50s. Uh one of these sort of federally funded research and development centers um that was meant to look into all sorts of issues of national security. It's kind of a, you know, it's as when we talk about the proverbial deep state, you think of the Rand Corporation. And a man who was

offered to be president of the Rand Corporation, some people might not know this, is a past interviewee of mine, guy named Harold Malmgrren, who was a senior presidential adviser for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, and said all sorts of really bombshell stuff when it came to UFOs, including he held pieces of a UFO uh at Sandia Complex in New Mexico, who was it was given to him by Lawrence Preston Gist, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather uh which is

fascinating and uh he talked about the magenta crash Malmrren did uh and his his his mentor Richard Bissell who founded Area 51 briefing him on other worldly technologies. Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you? >> He said this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned 1933 >> He did. >> Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 magenta. Correct. Yes, >> that's amazing. So, this provided a lot

of backup for David Grush's, you know, famous UFO whistleblower is responsible for a lot of modern disclosure today. His testimony around this Magenta crash where he came out, he said that there are covert American UFO reverse engineering programs. We have this whole history on this stuff. But he also said he talked about one specific crash and it wasn't Roswell. It was this 1933 uh Lombardi, you know, northern Italy crash, specifically in Magenta, Italy. >> 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in

uh Magenta, Italy. Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And you know, the Pope Pius the 12th backchanled that. >> So the Vatican was involved. >> Yeah. and told the Americans what the Italians had and and we ended up scooping it. >> And you have some interesting connections that you've made between that and Nazi prowess in engineering at the time. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp,

focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post coffee crash. And let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mudwater gave me the smooth, steady energy I was missing. It's packed with functional mushrooms like lion's mane, chaga, and rayi. Plus, turmeric and cacao all working together to keep me focused, calm, and grounded. Honestly, it's like coffee went on a

yoga retreat and came back zen. What I love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee. It's a whole new ritual. It's a simple, nourishing way to start the day. and I actually look forward to it every morning. Every ingredient is USDA certified organic, vegan, non-GMO, and there's zero sugar. It's energy that doesn't mess with your sleep or make you question your life choices at 3:00 a.m. Ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to that's mudwt.com,

and grab your starter kit today. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code Jesse. That's right, up to 43% off with code Jesse at mud wtr.com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mud water because life's too

short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. And so what do you have to say about all that? >> Yeah. So as as far as I understand it, the Vatican was informed of it. The Vatican was informed of it and has a dossier on it and the Vatican was involved in the sort of study of this uh object um in a joint working group that involved both SS scientists and uh Italian scientists in a third party

country. So when I wrote my book Closer >> did he say third party country? No, but I know it's a third party country because that's where the so-called Bell project winds up being developed, namely just outside Prague >> in Czech, former Czech Loracia, okay, in the Czech Republic. >> And so when I was doing my research for Closer Encounters, we did not yet have the testimony from Grush about Magenta. I wrote that book in 2021 or it was

published in 2021. Uh so I studied the um Nazi advanced propulsion research that was going on again at a facility called the SCOD works just outside Prague under the direction of SS General Hans Comler. After Gush made this testimony about Magenta, I realized why they put it there. Because if the Italians had found this object and at least from one angle,

this was a reverse engineering project, >> then it makes sense to have chosen a country that was neither Italy nor Germany. The Italians needed the German technical expertise. They were not going to figure out what the hell this thing was by themselves. Even though they'd had some very competent scientists, but still they knew that they had to call the Germans in. And yet the Germans probably wanted to, you know, uh, wanted to respect the Italians by putting this project in a third country that was neither Germany nor Italy.

Right? So it's sort of a compromise access compromise to put it in um, it's it's an interesting question. how much of what they were doing there was an attempt to reverse engineer whatever crashed at Magenta uh and how much of it was a result of uh Germans grappling with some real nuts andbolts practical engineering problems. So let me give you an example.

The saucer airframe very naturally evolved from German aeronautical engineering. They were taking very seriously in the 1930s the problem of um aerodynamics and the boundary layer that where a a pocket of air resistance forms around the edges of an aircraft. >> And it causes drag and impedes >> So they came up with the idea of creating a saucer-shaped craft that

would have suction vents all around it. And these suction vents would uh basically suck in the boundary layer >> and then redirect the uh the the air pocket into the propulsion system >> as as part of the propulsion system. And another interesting thing that they developed in connection with this problem of uh suctioning of the boundary layer and basically making a much more aerodynamic aircraft was they developed

context, 1947 famous proverbial, you know, archetypal UFO crash occurs in Roswell, which is the home of the uh 59th at Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis Lame. Sort of makes, you know, uh well, it made the Roswell Daily Record got popularized actually way later in 1979. Um but you're saying that the metal found there >> what was discovered in Nazi Germany? >> Some of it. Some of it. Now, here's the thing about Roswell, and we'll come back to this.

>> Is this what Jesse Marcel handled that >> I don't know. Okay. I don't know. >> The memory metal. >> Yeah. Well, certainly memory metal was found there. >> Whether these are the same thing, and whether the memory metal was this perforated metal, I don't know. >> But supposedly that that was also found >> Does Corso say that the perforated metal that was found at Roswell matches >> Nazi? Um, Joseph Farrell did a study of Corso's claims in the day after Roswell in a book which I believe is called Saucer Swastikas and SCOPS

>> and he went in detail into various cuttingedge German uh technological innovations of the 1940s particularly military engineering >> and he makes a number of really significant points in this regard. Uh, among the things found at Roswell, according to Corso, was Kevlar. >> Night vision. >> And fiber optics. >> And lasers, I believe. >> And lasers.

>> Every Now, this I mean, okay, I guess space aliens could be using Kevlar. Maybe they could be using Velcro, too. But uh Farrell researched this and he provides documentation that shows that the Germans had invented every single one of these in the 1940s. They were not in common use. They were not even accessible to the majority of the German military, but they were being tested uh you know as sort of cutting edge uh weapons technology especially like in the North African desert in 1943 444.

Yeah, I believe there's the first patent for a transistor is in Munich or something in the in the 30s. So, >> yeah, that's interesting. >> Well, well, when we went in there, you know, to Nazi Germany, we found that the German subsidiary of IBM, a company called Dehomog >> was way ahead >> not only of like all the other American transistor manufacturers, but ahead of the American IBM. So the German subsidiary was like developing transistors that were much order of magnitude smaller than what we had in

the United States. But this brings up two really important questions. One is what caused this just general technological acceleration in Nazi Germany in the you know 20s30s and 40s that I mean really 30s and 40s. If you think about Hitler took power in 1933 which was you know you have like 10 years to build up and you get all sorts of I mean look at V2 rockets are like 20 30 years ahead of anything in the in the west. Um you know all the Vundervafa you know their fighter jets were the skunk

works was kind of a response to the fact that their fighter jets were running circles around ours. So what accounts for that? A and then B, if they are so advanced technologically, why did the United States ultimately, you know, prevail and beat them in World War II? >> Well, that's a subject that I, you know, I hope we can get into in some level of >> I wonder if if I should flesh out a couple more things about the engineering at Scot Works before we then come back

to this >> and and really dive into it head on. Uh they were developing these saucer airframes with suction vents and so on and so forth, but these were rocket >> They had rotating rockets underneath these saucer shaped craft. >> Rotating rockets. >> Yeah. Like like um a series of jet jets >> like put in a in like in a fan formation >> uh to basically maneuver these saucers shaped craft in various directions. So it was a jet aircraft. In other words,

project based on those researchers, I assumed that this project began like in the early 1940s. I've since been informed by somebody who had relatively direct knowledge, somebody in Serbia. >> That it went back to 1937. >> Who is this person? >> Um, I don't want to mention the person's name, but they a very old person who was involved with some of these individuals back in the day in Central and Eastern Europe. interest. And so it from what I

hear from him, it started in 1937. And this was a project to basically develop uh originally their aim was to develop a new power source, a power >> Involving the electromagnetic rotation of mercury and thorium. >> Yeah. So I think it's thorium 232 if I remember correctly >> mixed with a certain isotope of mercury. >> And the reason for mixing it with

mercury is that mercury is electromagnetically reactive. Mhm. >> So if you want to rotate the thorium >> Um using electromagnets, mixing the thorium with mercury allows you to rotate the thorium very effectively, create thorium torsion. >> And this device would be continuously powered by alternating current >> and intermittently shocked with very high voltage direct current.

And basically what it did was it would create a a kind of plasma fusion from out of which tremendous energy >> So so it was a overunity device where you would be putting a certain amount of energy into it both AC and DC but then the nuclear reaction of the thorium due to electromagnetic torsion would produce more energy than was being put into the device. Is he high conviction that that's I mean so you're saying this

sort of they had like a zero point energy device. >> Yes. Yes. >> Because that's >> that's the idea that that's what um Nick Cook and Joseph Farrell are all saying looking at the bell project. >> Well Nick Cook it. So yeah a lot of his stuff came from Wikowski and it's amazing. I mean he takes it a little boat ride under they go underground and you can see the rig where DLCA was. So it was definitely a real project and Hans Colmer was a you know very real guy. He had you know control of of of

Schod works which was kind of the really black world you know exciting projects going on as opposed to kind of the white world you know Heisenberg nuclear project. Uh but there are all sorts of rumors about DLA. I mean some people say it was like a time machine. When you talk to Nick Cook, he's he gets like a a little uncomfortable as my read almost as if he knows something that he like can't really talk about or something, >> but he'll he'll say I think it was a black world nuclear project. Over time,

I have come to conclude that it was probably a one of several sites that the Germans, the SS in particular, were using to look into uh nuclear weapons, nuclear technology, >> which goes towards >> I think both of those things are true. I think both of those things are true and we can unpack both of them. >> So, first let's start from the time the time angle, right? >> You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging. Not just in terms of

years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slower recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called qualiaenolytic. And it's been a major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call scesscent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn out cells that stop dividing but don't die. They hang around in your body, draining your energy, clogging up your recovery, and

generally making you feel older than you are. Qualiosenolytic is a firstofits-kind supplement formulated with nine plant-based compounds designed to help your body naturally eliminate these zombie cells. It's not something you take every day, just 2 days a month, but it supports your body in aging better at the cellular level. Since I've started taking it, I've felt sharper, lighter, and like my body's resilience has come back online. It's vegan, non-GMO, and grounded in serious research. Experience the science of

feeling younger. Go to for up to 50% off your purchase and use code jessie. Again, that's j s for an additional 15% off. That's qu u l i a l i f.com/jessej Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. >> So I think I I assume

>> that or let's say I suspect that they were looking for a a incredible power plant originally. But the reason that rig exists >> is because they realized that this thing levitates when you turn it on >> and they had to chain it down. >> And so this whatever uh kind of energy was being generated also resulted in counterar. It was it was a an anti- in other words it developed a local local

gravitational field around itself Um, but the other more interesting thing is that it they would put plants around this thing and they would turn to mulch. They were like cellularly disrupted. They were disrupted on a cellular level and they would basically disintegrate >> and supposedly the entire first team of scientists that worked around this thing died very quickly and they had to replace them all. And we do know from Wakowski for a fact that the lead

scientists was a guy it was a guy named Ernest Growitz who I believe was an SS medical officer who worked directly under Joseph Mangala. So if you were putting sort of biological specimens you know in this sort of torsion field you know he would be relevant. And then a guy named Walter Gerlock who worked at a local university and was extremely interested in gravity. >> So yeah sort of to your point. >> Absolutely. and Gerlock was involved in like also magnetic engineering and stuff like that um electromagnetic engineering and stuff

like that. So um but and the people who I mean the first group of them eventually died experienced extreme temporal disorientation. So they would, this is what the the reports are, you know, from uh Witcowski and and Frell, uh that they experience time flowing at a different rate than people outside the laboratory. >> And that it became extremely disorienting and eventually cognitively debilitating to them. >> So time machine well, you know, maybe

not at that stage, but some kind of a time disruptor. >> That it's it is interfering with the uh fabric of spaceime. And for people who think we're crazy, general relativity even would allow for that in a on a go forward sense because if you, you know, create a high density or, you know, you create a high energy environment, there are two ways to basically uh uh warp spaceime, it's, you know, mass and energy. And with both, you you you would encounter sort of time displacement. And so this, you know, black hole where you

have like, you know, you're going to slow time the closer you get to it. So high voltage experimentation and things of that nature or you know nuclear experiment you might you know incur some sort of time displacement as well. >> And and say you were to like do that in a more >> and wasn't brown obsessed with like time >> He was obsessed with time travel. And he like Agnu Bonson who funded him was famous for saying that uh you know in high m high megabolt range you know um electricity experiments very anomalous uh things would occur phenomena would

occur and towns and brown definitely thought that his work led would lead you to a working model of time travel and to get even more specific with how that might work in the context of Doloft as the rumor was that there was a ceramic chamber you know internally uh to protect, you know, whatever biological organism was being sort of tested in this environment. And by the way, this is a Nazi regime that definitely experimented on human beings. Twin studies with Joseph Mangala, experimental cell block 9, where they try to cryionically freeze people. Like

border science was very invogue. So you'd put a person in this ceramic chamber, you create a torsion field around it, uh, and basically you'd slow time on the inside to, you know, say 1/ 1,000th of a second. And you know uh uh uh if a person spent a year inside this chamber, you'd walk out and you'd be a thousand years in the future. And that doesn't break Hawkings chronological conjecture. It works with general relativity. It makes theoretical sense. There are all these engineering issues with it presumably, but what you're

saying isn't totally crazy for the audience. And and unfortunately, I'm sure that they brought concentration camp inmates and put them in there. >> I'm sure I'm sure they did that. >> So, okay. So, you have this bell. Mhm. >> And then you Oh, by the way, an alternate name for the bell was debintock, the beehive, >> which is interesting because they say the reason they called it that is that it makes the sound of a bunch of bees buzzing together when you [clears throat] turn this thing on. >> And there have been people who reported that in relation to UFO close

encounters. Yeah, we heard a sound in that in that direction. It was sort of like a buzzing noise. It was a very, you know, it was like a buzzing. It kind of sounded like bees, but more like a like a machine be sound. Some just very >> What was the craft like? So, you're you're in the inside of this thing. What did it look like? >> A beehive. >> So, they had this bell and they had this saucer shaped airframe that initially was being uh, you know, propelled by

front for some deeper deeper stuff that you're kind of getting into right now. >> Um so I find that interesting as well. >> Well that makes a very good point too in so far as scientific breakthroughs never only occur once and never come through only one person. >> Anyone who studies the history of science knows this. And one of the most ignorant points made today uh to dispute the idea that let's say the Nazis could have cracked ZPE back in the ' 40s and and had you know saucer propulsion uh is well somebody else should have come up

with it you know like either before or by now or whatever. First of all the last few decades are full of cases of people coming up with like interesting energy devices and either being bought out or being made to disappear or whatever you know meeting some kind of misfortune. But going back to that era, yes, other people arrived at the same thing. Townson Brown arrived at something similar. Nicola Tesla had already arrived at something similar decades earlier. Uh even if he didn't patent it, and you know, Tesla was

notorious for not properly patenting >> His drawings of the world wireless system are full of UFOs. powered craft. They are all over Tesla's drawings. It's not as if the Nazis like came up with this like, you know, municiple. And the effects that you're mentioning, people having incurred, you know, time displacement, disorientation, all the reports of the Philadelphia experiment, which was led by Thomas Towns and Brown, who had a nervous breakdown at that time and had to move

out to LA and then started working for uh, you know, Martin Corporation the year that Skunk Works started. uh all all of the same sort of reports of what you're describing time displacement I believe uh people think they might have used thorium in that as well or or maybe it was hexafllora I don't remember but um very interesting the parallels there too people people said you know they went back in time they went forward in time there are all sorts of fantastical stories about it nobody knows quite what happened it had a very large budget attached to it so

could have been this parallel kind of you know thing which which which often happens in science as you just said. >> Yep. Yep. And so now here's the picture. It's so from based on you know the research that that I've done that I cit in closer encounters it's 1944 >> when they figure out finally how to integrate well they they finish work on the bell at least the prototype of it and they figure out how to integrate it with the saucer airframe. >> So they're already losing the war. The Germans are losing the war. The allies

are marching on them. It's increasingly a losing battle and Nazi leadership starts to make these statements about how there are these wonder weapons that are being developed and once the wonder weapons the vundervafa are finished then Germany will dramatically turn the tide and secure like 11th hour victory in the war but it's all dependent on these wonder weapons and don't worry they're coming right this this rhetoric starts to emerge from out of party leadership

>> autot scores Zi, who at that time was the master of psychological warfare and special operations, >> shows up to the SCOD works and supposedly he's given a demonstration of this thing >> and he gets obsessed with the idea of using this thing as part of some grand psychological warfare operation >> and then we have so this is 1944, right? Fast forward to a year after the end of the war. There are these newspaper reports in

>> that Otto Scorzani is with General >> on the Mediterranean coast and they're launching saucershaped rockets toward >> right? They didn't know what to call these things at that time, right? They didn't know what rockets were. They were seeing these rocketlike things that were saucer-shaped being launched from Spain, the Mediterranean coast, over toward >> One year later, what happens? Roswell and other crashes. >> Whoa. What are the reports of Franco

launching saucers with Scorzani? >> This is in uh I think it's in the Saucer Swatos and Scops book of Farrell where he reproduces these Spanish newspaper >> Yes. From 1946 describing the two of them together uh with of course a bunch of military people uh on the Mediterranean coast of Spain. And you think that these things that made its way to Roswell, New Mexico, possibly. >> Yeah. And >> the picture is a lot darker than that. Here's here's what I think happened.

You've discussed it at length on your >> What fewer people know about is the incorporation of the Galen organization into American intelligence. >> Right. So remember, the Soviets are marching across all of Eastern Europe, taking all this territory that had been part of the Reich. There's a whole network of Nazi SS affiliated intelligence operatives in Eastern Europe who continue to be

embedded there as the Soviets are marching over the territory. So what happens in 1945 when America wins the war immediately at a strategic level it's understood that our enemy is now the Soviet Union and the world is divided at Berlin right and if we are going to uh conduct successful espionage on the Soviets we would have to build a vast spy network in Eastern Europe well there's already one there okay it's the network that was

run by General Reinhard Galen >> so our OS USS makes a deal with General Galen to absorb his entire Nazi spy network in Eastern Europe as part of the creation of the CIA. Part of the creation of the CIA and of West German intelligence which was very closely affiliated with the CIA. So it's not just the case that we brought over all these Nazi scientists. By we I mean the CIA. It's that the CIA that brought over all

those Nazi scientists and sanitized their records, you know, these paper clip the files, the sanitized files they created for them, sanitized bios and so forth. The CIA that did that was co-constituted by absorbing a an SS spy network. H well, think about what kind of culture that's creating in America. Okay. As the National Security Act is passed in 1947. Why is the National Security Act passed in 1947? Let's talk about a guilt-free alternative to alcohol that's perfect

for your dry January or anytime you want to unwind. Cornbread's organic CBD gummies. These gummies are an absolute lifesaver for my evening routine. They're a natural way to relax, celebrate, or wind down without the hangover. I've cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years. For a lot of you, trying out Dry January or cutting back generally, it's not always easy. But swapping that glass of wine for cornbread CBD gummies is a total gamecher. It's a simple upgrade to your evening routine that leaves you

feeling great the next day without sacrificing the fun. Plus, with all natural ingredients, they're the perfect way to stay balanced. Cornbread hemp isn't just a product. It's a small way to bring balance into your life. Whether you're journaling, meditating, or simply enjoying some downtime, these gummies elevate the experience without any of the guilt. It's like having a moment of calm in your pocket, ready whenever you need it. Alcohol doesn't have to be the default anymore. Whether you're cutting back for dry January or just looking for a healthier way to relax, you've got to

try Cornbread CBD gummies. Right now, American Alchemy listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to and use code jesse at checkout. Again, that's cornbread.com/jesse. Code Jesse. Cornbread hemp. This is the good life. Could it have to do with what happened at Roswell and the need to create a vast unaccountable inscrable security apparatus? >> It could have been direct reaction. I believe the National Security Act was

September 1947 and Roswell was July of 1947. So, a lot of people speculate that. So, so here's what I think. It's a The Nazis created the crisis at Roswell. They staged an event. Now, let me not be misinterpreted, okay? As anyone who listens to our first conversation can see, I'm not by any means suggesting that like grays or whatever like manufactured by Nazis or what, you know,

fingers. So I'm not suggesting that like all these crashes, okay, have to do with Nazi psychological operations, but the particular incident at Roswell, I think >> really is that just based on the Franco Scorzani shooting sauced on the analysis of what was recovered there and that all of it represents cutting edge German >> based on Corso's testimony of the technology recovered there and then looking into history of cutting edge German military technological innovations. But 47 is 2 years after the official surrender of you know V you

know VE day surrender of Germany. So why would they >> when you look at the instruments of >> So a number of things are relevant here. Let's go through them one by one. When you look at the instruments of surrender >> the German army, air force, navy and the German government surrender. >> The SS never surrenders. >> The SS is not included in the German instruments of surrender. Is that because they're inherently the secret >> It's because they continued. They did not surrender. certain particular SS officers not just

continued but developed highlevel intelligence and financial relations with both the United States and the United Kingdom. >> But wasn't that still under the United States? Like I think of you know Warner von Braun or a lot of these guys. They're sort of under the US's thumb. You know ultimately the US sort of you know wielded authority and power over them. No, >> you don't think so. >> So when von Braun, who was, by the way, an SS major who used slave labor to build rockets in basically a concentration camp inside of a mountain >> and then became responsible for the

American space program essentially. Yeah. when von Braonn and his buddies um were down in um Texas and during the period they were in >> Uh at one point they it was noticed by American I probably the FBI >> that they were going in meeting Nazi counterparts coming from Argentina at border towns in Mexico and giving them data drops. They were giving uh

classified American military data to their Nazi counterparts coming from >> in meetings in Mexico. So they were confronted about this by the Americans. >> Next thing you know, a V2 rocket goes off course and hits a a place in Mexico. >> No way. >> Yeah. And the the von bronze people basically intimated to the Americans, you know, if you make working conditions hard for us and and keep grilling us like this, you know, rockets are bound to go off course and maybe, you know, a

war with Mexico might even start. >> What? So they were being hassled by these people in a way that suggests that these Nazis had a lot more control and latitude than the civilian government of the United States >> wanted to believe was the case. And I think that degree of control is coming from the deep state that was established through the National Security Act of 1947. In other words, the CIA, probably the NSA, and various other apparatuses of our deep state in America were

mastermind of the Reich. And uh he supposedly died three times. M >> there are three conflicting accounts of this man's death >> from 19 like 45 to 47. >> Next thing you know he has a joint bank account with Juan Peron in Argentina. >> And as late as the 1960s Martin Borman is cashing checks written in his own name through Chase JP Morgan Chase in >> Buenos Iris.

So the British are involved too. And then this Ian Fleming MI6, you know, operative winds up becoming a novelist who writes about an organization called >> which is a hidden third power in the >> So the villain in the Bondverse, right, >> is a secret transnational global organization that's capable of rivaling both the Soviet Union and the civilian government of the United States. Whoa. Well, I guess Spectre,

they have like German accents, a lot of them, don't they? Or >> it's very obviously the organization which was known to Ian Fleming as Odessa. The um initials of which in German stand for order of former SS officers and which informally was referred to as DBA or the spider. Fascinating. Really? Well, that's that's really amazing. That's so interesting. And do do you know anything because I believe the inspiration for Ian Fleming for James Bond was um uh William

Stevenson who was known as Church Hill's super spy. He was a sort of Canadian British uh actually and I had an identic memory was an engineer and then also was this kind of brilliant super spy strategist. And so was he ever fighting the spider in any sort of way? Cuz that would like instantiate this even more. >> Yeah, that I don't know. That I don't know. But I know that Fleming was involved with them and facilitating. I think that >> the the leadership of this organization uh basically um was was taken over by

>> uh and probably Auto Scorzani was in the second position >> once these people um basically set up shop in Argentina. One of the most interesting things that they did in was they promised they were going to develop fusion power and fusion nuclear weapons for Juan Peron. And this guy uh Ronald Richtor, German um scientist set up a fusion project in >> Mhm. This is uh early 1950s, late 40s

into the early 50s. I believe in 1951, the atomic energy a the inter the IAEA, international atomic energy agency went down there to investigate claims that they were developing nuclear fusion and they found a very, you know, complex facility over there. >> Yeah, I've been there actually. I've seen it. A little island off the off the coast of Baroce. It's like this little >> So, you went to Baroce to investigate? >> Not to investigate this. I was just

hanging out and I was on a hike and then somebody told me about this scientist named Ronald Richtor who is this former Nazi who was working on fusion there and I was like what and then I went and it's amazing. So >> Yeah. And then there's a there's a civilian nuclear grid in Barello as well. So who knows if there is some sort of overlap there. >> Well, Argentina later almost developed nuclear weapons >> later on in the 1970s. But here's the interesting thing is that he promised to develop these nuclear weap fusion fusion

weapons for Peron and he never did. Ronald Richtor and moreover when the IAA people went down there and investigated they said this doesn't look like any fusion that we understand. >> We don't know what this guy's doing down here. It's incredibly energyintensive, >> but it doesn't look like any kind of fusion that we understand. Hm. Okay. Here's where it gets really dark and and and goes to your question of like if they had all this technology, meaning the Nazis, why didn't they use it to win the war? And how is it that we won the war and so on and so forth, right?

>> Um, there are some eyewitness reports of two German nuclear weapons tests being conducted between late 1944 and early 1945. one in the Baltic Sea where a pilot uh was flying over the Baltic Sea and he saw an exp a bright bright light that almost blinded him and an explosion where there were like multi-olored like rainbow colored lights like fizzling inside the explosion

>> which is a telltale sign of a nuclear fision explosion when you see one with your naked eye in person. It doesn't register on camera very well, but it's like the rest of the file material kind of like reacting inside the mushroom cloud. And he said like it it it created a huge pressure wave he saw from his airplane and this blinding flash of light and these weird like multicolored reaction. And then there's a second eyewitness account of of um what appears to be a nuclear test near the Theian

>> which I think they said like cut out power in a nearby town or something like this like you know the the EMP effect of So um again this is this is research that's been done by two people. One is a guy weird name uh Plimpmpton Hydrickch I >> Plymouth or is it Plimpmpton? I got it wrong when we spoke on the phone. It's actually Plimpmpton, I think. Hydrich. >> A book called Critical Mass. >> It's a whole study of the Nazi nuclear program and its connection to the United

States and to the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which we'll come to in a minute. >> And then the second source is Farrell's uh deeper research on Plimpmpton Hydrick's claims and additional research that he did into Nazi nuclear weapons. And basically the the picture that emerges is this that the pro the uranium enrichment program that um Heisenberg was running was a red herring that was a it was a uh basically cover and

diversionary tactic to throw off the allies who successfully defeated that program. They sent like >> a team of like Nordic skiers or something to like take out the heavy water plant and so they they derailed that project. uh but that there was a deeper black project to develop nuclear weapons using electromagnetic isotope separation which is something that later was used at Oakidge in the United States >> and that the Germans were using electromagnetic isotope separation in a in a more secret parallel track

program that did succeed in developing fision weapons. Now uh Plimpmpton Hydrickch in his book argues he makes this case that at Trinity they did not the records show that they did >> when you say electromagnetic isotope separations like just like a centrifuge or or like >> no something other than the kind of centrifuge technology that we're used and I you know I'm not a physicist I don't know what it is. uh and and

probably they were also using laser isotope enrichment because the Nazis developed the laser I think in part for this purpose of isotope enrichment >> and which by the way just very brief side note to all those people like investigating the Iranian nuclear program right now >> they are not using centrifuge enrichment for the nuclear weapons Iran has been using laser isotope enrichment and I hope that wherever the hell it is they're conducting laser isotope enrichment that this regime doesn't have

a an unagnowledged stockpile of highlyenriched uranium. In any case, be that as amazing, the Shaw bought laser isotope enrichment technology from Switzerland in 1970. >> Anyway, so so all this talk about, you know, we got to check out the centrifuges. That's not where they're >> But okay, how is it relevant? It's they learned from the Nazis. The Nazis had a fake program which was a diversionary tactic and then there was a real deeper black program. Why would you use because Heisenberg was so smart. I mean he was

responsible for you know understanding the mathematical underpinnings behind quantum leaps you know electrons and electron shells and orbits and uh you know the uncertainty princip. >> He also wrote this book physics and philosophy which is an absolutely masterful text that quotes Heracitis and shows how Heracitis was like a precursor to quantum theory and intuited basically quantum theory is a fantastic brilliant guy. Yeah, it is really it's a trippy book that book because he talks about all sorts of issues in quantum mechanics and interpretations that you know the

Copenhagen school is kind of wrestling with that we now kind of paint over with this broad brush around consciousness and he really like muses in this deep way that consciousness might play a part in wave function collapse and that sort of thing and now it's just you know oh you know it's it's all it's you know it's it's the quantum detector or whatever does you know wave the wave function collapse is when particles collide or whatever. But >> so why would you why would you waste a guy like that? >> Waste a guy like that a brain like that? >> Because if you want the allies to

>> that this is your nuclear program, you're going to have to put as your frontman the guy that the allies would expect to be running the Nazi nuclear program. What's interesting about him is he and all the people on his nuclear program were captured like you said and they were put I believe in the English countryside and they the whole house was wiretapped and this was a part of the uh also program this you know nuclear tech retrieval program and they were just listen you know what what are they going to say maybe they you know give away

some trade secrets and they talk about feeling regret around working on the nuclear program and also gratitude that their sort of heavy water never quite worked out which was I guess they were using dutyium uh you know in their approach. So >> I thought you were going to say something else because the other thing I've heard about that I've heard the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a transcript. It's amazing. Read >> But here here's other interesting thing about that. Yeah. >> Is that when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. >> Yeah. They overheard these guys. They have that, you know, transcript of how

immediately Heisenberg and his people calculated the amount of file material >> Yeah. So, it was as if they knew like they could reverse engineer from, you know, the scale of the explosion, whatever, what kind of bomb produced. >> Which which implies a completed nuclear >> or knowledge of one. But in any case, >> either that or they're the most competent guys, which means they shouldn't be on the cover. >> I wouldn't rest I wouldn't rest anything on that. Um, but here's here's the interesting point I was uh making in

relation to the the uh Plimpmpton Hydrick's research. Yeah. is that he says that there's records showing the amount of file material at Trinity and that it wasn't anywhere close to being able to um basically uh complete Fat Man and Little Boy >> and that in 1945 a deal was made with the Nazis to transfer by submarine >> the file material that went into the bombs that we dropped on Hiroshima and

Nagasaki that the Trinity project was complete ed >> with Nazi highlyenriched uranium and that it was transferred in an agreement that we made with the SS. >> Your high conviction in that. >> Well, this is what he argues and he's done this, you know, his book is critical mass. Y >> Okay. And he he lays out a lot a huge argument for this. >> Now, here's the problem.

the way he also makes the argument that the engineering of the plutonium bomb >> was completed with Nazi Nazi assistance. >> Okay. So if we got our uh you know uranium and additional technical expertise for completing our nuclear weapons from the Nazis and if there are two reports uh of Nazi successful nuclear tests in 44 and 45 >> why weren't these weapons used by the >> It's a great question. Why >> there are a couple of different answers

and they're both really disturbing. let me start. I don't know which one is more disturbing. Okay. But let Okay. So if Ronald Richtor is working on fusion in Argentina in 1950 >> is it possible and the Nazis had let's say they've developed this bell that involves electromagnetic torsion of thorium and some kind of a plasma fusion that takes place inside of this device. H is it possible the Nazis figured out

some other kind of nuclear reaction, weaponizable nuclear reaction >> besides fision? >> And is that related to why Ronald Richtor was promising fusion bombs >> to Juan Peron, which he never delivered? >> Interesting. I didn't know if he was promising fusion. >> Yeah, he was promising nuclear weapons to and this is why the IA went down >> Fusion bombs. >> Well, okay. He's working on fusion. >> Mhm. and he's promising nuclear bombs to >> So we we may assume from those two data

points that he's promising fusion bombs. >> Now we only developed fusion bombs >> and hydrogen bombs are fusion bombs. >> Exactly. But here's the interesting thing is that we develop hydrogen fusion >> in the 50s and this is 1950. Ronald Richtor is down there. So it's relatively the same ballpark time frame. >> Yeah. Edward Teller and Ulam that design was 52. >> Yeah. But here's the thing. Our hydrogen bombs use a fision trigger to create a fusion reaction. >> What if the Nazis figured out how to

create a fusion reaction without a fision trigger? >> It would be extremely useful because the radioactivity of a nuclear explosion comes from the fision trigger. M >> the neutron bombardment that well first of all you know immediately disrupts like a whole you know our whole organism and then also irradiates all the fallout that comes down on people >> that neutron bombardment is from the fision reaction >> not from the fusion. >> So if you could create a fusion reaction

without a fision trigger you'd have a clean nuclear bomb >> an extremely high explosive force but no radioactivity. So your troops could move into that area and occupy it >> Really? There'd be no radioactivity. >> No radioactivity. Straight. It's the opposite of a neutron bomb. So a neutron bomb is is, you know, engineered to maximize neutron bombardment. >> This is an autronic fusion bomb. >> If the Nazis developed that in 1944 to

>> atom bombs would be like matches for >> It's child's play. So they would be willing to trade that for something else like maybe the, you know, mass uh assimulation and um what do you call it? Amnesty for Nazi scientists. Like maybe incorporation of their entire SS spy network in Eastern Europe into the CIA. >> Like perhaps the transfer of a huge amount of funds, wartime loot to Argentina and other places that they

made a deal and gave the matches to the Americans. But they kept the fusion bombs for themselves. >> You don't think they' just vaporize large swaths of American territory and try to win? >> Now, this gives me this comes to the second reason. Okay. Which is even more >> All right. disturbing this is. No, but people need to really think about this because I think we're still inside this spider's web and it's it's responsible for a lot of the deception, misdirection uh around

the disclosure conversation today. >> So, you have to take seriously this claim on the part of the Nazi leadership that they wanted a thousand year Reich. A thousand-year imperium is no joke. have a very hard time with this because this country was born yesterday in historical terms. Okay. Uh there are other people who are capable of grasping this more effectively. Let me give you an example. And trust me, it's it's

worth setting it up like this. And for context for the audience real quick, Third Reich is called that because I believe it was the Roman Empire, then the Holy Roman Empire, and they were supposed to be the third instantiation. >> So, they want this thousand-year Reich. Okay. Well, who thinks like that? We in Iran uh there was a dynasty that's often misnamed the second Persian Empire. Actually they weren't Persians, they were schizians. The Parthion Empire of Iran. Okay. It lasted for 400 years. The

Parthion Empire Iran was the principal rival of Rome. So the two superpowers in the world at that time were the Roman Empire and the Parthion Empire of Iran. And at that time the country was called Ariana Kashhatra, Aryan Imperium. That was the official name of the Parthion government was Aryan imperium and then Ariana gets shortened to Iran in middle So these Parththeians ruled Iran and successfully fought the Romans usually to a stalemate for 400 years. Then they

get overthrown in a coup by these guys called the Sassanids, the Sassanid Persians and they establish their own empire. But the Parthion elite continue to be the backbone of the Sasanid state. The feudal houses, the Parthion feudal houses serve the Sassanate state and protect it the way like in Game of Thrones, you have all the main houses in Game of Thrones and they're like serving what's that place? You know, the the the main the capital, whatever it is, right? >> in Game of Thrones, what is that place?

>> I forget. >> And the Lannisters are there and like all the other feudal houses are serving them, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> So, get this. The Parthians rule Iran for 400 years directly. >> Yeah. They continued to rule Iran secretly for another 400 years under the Sasanids. They're the backbone of the Sasanid state. >> In the end, the conflict, make a very long story short, the conflict they had with the >> results in the collapse of Iran to Islam. The the state security of Iran and the conquest of the Persian Empire by the Mus Arab Muslim armies was on

account of basically the tension between the Sassinates and these feudal lords. So Iran then is subsumed by Islam for a couple hundred years. Round about 850 900 an Iranian renaissance begins which is misnamed often the Islamic golden age. 90% of the people who contributed to it in the arts and sciences were Iranians. Anyway the Parthians are also the patrons of this. So they become like the medaches. They become the patrons of an Iranian renaissance for another 300 years

between like 900 between 900 and 1100. Mhm. So these people ruled Iran directly for 400 years, ruled Iran indirectly for another 400 years, 800 years, and then for another 300 years they patroned an Iranian renaissance, 1100 years. For over a thousand years, these feudal >> had a coherent political vision. >> That's how you need to think when you want a thousand-y year Reich. So, if the Nazis in the modern world

want to set up a thousand-year imperium, it's going to require a little bit of >> investing a century in psychological warfare and social engineering to set up your thousand-year Reich is not at all an unreasonable investment. M >> and so my hypothesis is that from 1945 until 2045 we are in a period of preparation involving horrendous psychological

warfare and social engineering by a deeply entrenched fascist elite. Let's not call them Nazis anymore because they're really not nationalists. A deeply entrenched fascist elite that controls the American deep state. So that's the an second answer to why did they not win the war? No, they won the war. >> It's just you have to rethink what the war is. The war is a an onang. It's a worldview war. >> And that doesn't mean what Americans

think it does. So like when we went into Germany in 1945, the American military went in there, they translated Verton Chong into psychological warfare. >> And then later became, you know, the battle for hearts and minds, right? psychological operations, scops or psychological warfare. That's not what Tan Chang's Greek means. It means a war over the constitution of the world from out of human >> on a social level. And it goes back to German thinkers like Shelling, Frederick

>> and also ultimately Nietze definitely Nze's idea of perspectival conflict that there's no unified god's eye perspective on the world. There is of course you know God is dead right I mean Nietze is the ultimate deconstructor of a theistic monistic ontology. So there's no God to have a perspective on the whole world and there's nothing like a god's eye perspective even in science and science is always conditioned by culture and by

politics. So ontologically the world is I mean William James also made this point. He wrote a whole book called a pluralistic universe which if you look at the ontology of William James's radical empiricism in his book a pluralistic universe it almost completely maps onto niche's perspectival ontology >> and I compared the two explicitly in Prometheus and atlas you have this conflict of perspectives

that brings about the constitution of what we consider to be the world uh beginning and being in time and and going into his writings on technology, he calls this the worldhood of the world. The what makes a world of meaning for any people is not the same >> as how the warp and weft of meaning is brought together by another people. >> So there is a conflict of worlds over the earth. different worlds constituted

by let's say what Jung might call the collective unconscious of a particular people and by the way this is a point that's often I don't know whether it's overlooked or whether it's deliberately distorted in readings of Jung is that Jung did not believe in a single collective unconscious Jung believed in a racially differentiated collective unconscious and he's getting that idea from Hegel and Hegel's philosophy of mind Hegel talks about the spirit of different races and how it they the spirit of different it sounds crazy Hegel even thinks that the spirit of different

races can shape the world geologically. Any I don't know that Hyung would certainly take it that far, but Jung kind of got that idea from him and he developed it to where like for example he's predicted that the spirit of Voton would erupt from out of the collective unconscious of the German people and it did right in the form of the rise of the Nazis in the Second World War. So Haidiger is saying that there's a war and very much lines up again with Nietze. There's a war of different worlds over the earth.

So World War II is not what we think it is. First of all, all the deep Nazi thinkers did not see any difference between World War I and World War II. If you read, for example, Carl Schmidt, you see this. You read Haidiger, you see this. They say it's just the World War. And it the war the world war the great war never ended for us. The treaty of Versailles was imposed on them. You know they considered themselves to be like in a perpetual state of war for the world. >> And so you have to understand the term world war in a different way. It's a an

it's a war over the way that the world is going to show itself is going to come into presence. It's going to manifest. It's it's a certain understanding of what I've called in my writings phenomenal authorization where I've drawn a connection between three uh different ideas authorship, authority and authorization >> and tried to explain how phenomena are authored and authorized in how they can take shape and that

that's the most fundamental form of sovereignty. That real authority is not like the authority of a civilian government that's elected or some bureaucracy. It's who has the authority to shape phenomena into a meaningful world at a fundamental level. And the people who developed what uh Scorzani was the master of in Germany namely Shang's creek they understood this.

So, it's not bizarre for these people to engage in a century of social engineering to set up then what they expect would be a thousand-year imperium. If they had dropped whatever few nuclear weapons they had in 1944 on American cities, I can tell you exactly what the result would have been. Total war against the German people on the part of America at the same time as they're still fighting the Soviet Union, right? who actually was the principal enemy of Nazi Germany, responsible for

most of the deaths in Europe. The Soviets are really the ones who defeated the Germans to be honest. Okay. And so he they've got Stalin coming at them from one direction. Now they're dropping nukes on uh their fellow Germanic, you know, eur fellow European Americans. Now they're going to get the Americans, you know, interested in total war to annihilate them. Americans were also developing nuclear weapons. Best case scenario, I guarantee you Jesse, they would not have ruled the world for more than two

Even if they had succeeded in def militarily defeating America, there would have been a massive insurgency against them. The amount of arms that Americans possess personally, right, and then the amount of uh communist revolutionary fervor in Europe being backed by the Soviet Union, they would have faced a massive insurgency. But is the is the implication that there's some sort of Nazi sleeper cell undergirling American politics today or >> fascist is a better way to to put it. >> Fascist because Nazi again and now

here's another point. The neo-Nazis hate >> These people aren't nationalists. So Nazis is a misnomer Borman is not a nationalist. Auto Scorzani is not a nationalist. These people created first of all to begin with they weren't nationalists. They were looking for a kind of global imperium. Okay. They used nationalism and they you they used crass >> to create a power base for themselves. But you can see from how they're operating especially after the war from 45 onward >> that they're very much internationalists. They have a global

>> So but they're fascists. And do I think that there's a fascist underbelly to America? Absolutely. I think that's the deepest substratum of the deep state that controls these black projects is absolutely fascist. >> but but it was it was a nationalist move. I mean you had Vagner was very popular and van Bismar and you had this resuscitation of all this kind of German national pride free >> remember what we were saying about monumental history earlier. >> You need to monumentalize history >> if you want a a substantive forward

>> So if you want to create a thousand-year >> you need a lot of cultural material for that. But I would hardly say that at least among the leadership of this movement that they were sort of like xenophobically German. No, they they loved all kind of European civilizational heritage and they were interested in the Aryan, you know, heritage of places like Iran and India as well. They even sent people to Tibet to like get the Tibetan scriptures. Yep. >> they sent them to Mount Kyash and they were looking for the holy grail.

>> They were interested. They had a very broad and deep conception of what they considered the Aryan heritage. Okay. It was not nationalistically German. They used the German nationalism to rile up masses and build a power base. >> So do you think there was some Nazi nonhuman intelligence or alien connection going? I mean this guy Peter Leenda for example who writes a book called the the unholy alliance where he talks about we talked about last time Nordic alien beings. Do you think that

there was some sort of alliance between them and and the Nazis? Because I guess that sounds quacky, but I'm almost even more likely to believe that than the idea that the Nazis writ large just threw their lot in with the US and sort of stopped fighting and made some, you know, really long time horizon calculated decision to perpetuate the Third Reich through some sort of subrosa ruling of their greatest adversary. Like

I just I think >> No, I agree with you. No, I agree with >> The the the the regime that would do that wouldn't fail and and fight a two-front war with with Russia and then, you know, destroy themselves, right? >> Yeah. Well, they're not mutually >> Do I think that they were in contact on some level with people who they knew would in some way affirm and complete this project. They were

taking a great risk >> to forward. Yes, I think so. >> And there we need to look at these claims about the VR society and the fool So there are these claims that there was a group of mediums I think mostly women who were engaging in telepathic communication with basically a group of uh and that the these supermen were sort of helping these oultists with both like geopolitical machinations and scientific

I haven't been able to find any evidence of an independently existing VR society. >> But there was a thu society >> and the concept of Vril was very important to the thool society. M >> vill is this uh idea that um uh Sir Edward Bulward Littton wrote a book about in 1871 I believe the coming race. >> Yeah. And by the way this guy's biography is insane. You should What's his deal? >> Look at Edward Bullwward Linton. At one point he was offered the crown of Greece and he declined it. >> Yeah. They offered he was a British

gentleman. Yeah. >> British aristocrat. Super aristocrat. >> Extremely aerodite guy. Obviously deep into the oult. >> And traveled around a lot. And at one point they wanted to make him king of Greece and he was like, "No, man. I don't want the trouble." Really? >> And this book he wrote, The Coming Race, Hitler was, I think, really into. Yes. And it was this book about like an underground civilization or something. Was this based on any sort of empirical evidence was from him, you know, in his journeys or whatever. Did he happen upon these people or something? >> I don't. One can speculate, right?

>> One can speculate that that might have been the case. Um, but >> in any case, the Thu Society took all this very seriously. Mhm. >> And the Thu Society, oddly enough, it was founded by this guy, Baron Rudolfph von Spottenorf, >> who was initiated in Kurdistan of all >> He was initiated into an ancient Iranian Kurdish order called Aleak >> who are basically like surviving Mithraists. Anyway, long story short, he comes back from Kurdistan

uh through Turkey and he creates this stool gazelle chef. Now, what is stool? Thu is the Germanic conception of >> It's an island continent where a super civilization existed in vast antiquity which the these people the thul gazelle shaft believed were the progenitors of the Aryan race. >> And by the way they didn't make this up. Helena Blovski has this in her theosophical writings that >> the Aryan race came from Atlantis. I mean this is one of the claims that you know she makes and I believe that on

some level Steiner accepted it also although Steiner had a much more metaphysical transcendental interpretation of what Atlantis was. >> Yeah. Well he I mean I think he believed it existed and then Rudolph Hess who was in Hitler's inner circle was a huge fan of Rudolph Steiner as well. So >> yes and then the Nazis eventually considered Steiner to be their principal adversary which is saying a lot because when you consider somebody your your nemesis it means that in a way actually you're fighting over the same thing. I didn't know that. >> You're fighting over the Oh, they burned down the Gothna. the Nazis burned down the first Gothan because they thought that anthroposphe could really become a

rival to Nazism >> and to their vision for Europe and the destiny of the world and so fascin the Aryans including the Germans and essentially of creating a new Now, where would this island continent be? Which, by the way, they associate the Ger Germans associated with ice and

a frozen over place. And some Germans believed that it was the same place as >> Some of them did. >> So, if you look back at Plato, Tomus and >> And uh, you know, read every one of the clues he gives us about where Atlantis was located. Mhm. >> He says it is an island continent the size of Libya and Asia combined, which in the geography of the Greeks of his time meant a land mass the size of

the Persian Empire. >> That's a big island. >> Okay. That's that's like the con size of the continental United States. >> Then he says that it's in the world >> Mhm. And that from Atlantis you can by going to Atlantis you can cross over from one side of the world to the other side of the world. >> And it's in the world ocean. >> Oh wow. >> Well we have a world ocean. It's where the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and the Indian Ocean meet. >> In the coastline of Antarctica.

>> Okay. And it is an island the size of >> Libya and Asia combined as you put it or the size of continental United States. >> And you can get to the other side of the world from it. You island hop through Antarctica. you can get from Africa to South America or you know >> and uh he also says that there's huge mountain ranges there. So, and then one other thing >> and it was destroyed by a great flood and it might have had sort of very livable conditions pre younger dus period and ice age you know allah Graham

the earth would become topheavy due to And um this would cause the uh crust of the earth to slip over the mantle by a few thousand km and that pulls the ice out of the polar >> and the ice then precipitously melts. >> Okay. So this this notion that North America was covered by ice during the ice age

was found in Turkey that's exactly what it looks like. It looks like Antarctica has sort of shifted and this is supposed to be some sort of you know pre ice age map. Not only that, those maps, at least one of them, I don't remember whether it's the Pirises or the Orontius Fineas map, but one of them shows that Antarctica actually consists of two islands that are very close together. >> And um and this is in fact the case. Our subglacial topography has shown that it's not one land mass, it's two islands

that are very close together. >> Yeah. So clearly >> that also lends to its accuracy. >> Totally. And so whoever knew whoever made those maps originally and they may have been copied in the library of whoever made the initial maps that have correct longitude and latitude on them also which we didn't have at that time. >> Also the conspiracy about Pirase is that it uh the map looks like it shows the curvature of the earth. >> And this is well before Columbus. >> Yes. So I think that those were copied from Atlantean maps at some point.

>> Copied and recopied many times. Anyway, so the Nazis are looking for Atlantis, the Thu Gazel Shaft, right? The Thu and Thu is their Atlant. And by the way, one little interesting point there is the Mayans have, you know, the Mayans have legends of Atlantis. They have legends of a a great island, great island continent that was decimated by a flood and that its survivors took refuge there. There

is this legend among the Mayans which I believe Graham Hancock among others has cited in his work and they have these two words that they use for that place. One is >> and the other is Tulon. >> Tulan sounds a lot like tul. >> Tulon, right? Tulon atlan. So it could be the same word even ultimately or derived from the same word. Anyway, uh guess what the Nazis wind up doing in

Deutsch Antarctic Expedition. >> They send a ton of personnel down there. >> They even fly over the Trans Antarctic Mountains and drop swastika flags all over the landscape with like spears. Why do why do you think they went? Because they figured out that this is Thu, >> that this is Atlantis. The nominal reason too which is so primmaaccia just absurd is I think they said that they were going because of butter rations and

a few years later takes a secret unauthorized flight out of Germany, lands in Britain in a field is uh met by British officers and he says I have orders to meet with Winston Churchill. What? And they go to Churchill and they say, "Sir, is Hess is here?" Like, you know, he flew an unauthorized flight here. And Churchill said, "I don't want to see him. Throw him in prison. We're going to interrogate him." So then they

interrogate Hess and he says he had orders to secretly come to Britain and make a not just a peace overture but an alliance proposal to 30 members of the British Parliament who were favorable toward Hitler. So at at this point when Hess had made this flight, I believe Hitler had made three peace offers to the British including an offer to ally together and

to have basically the British Royal Navy and the Nazis become collaborators on a global scale. And so this was the final peace offering before the outbreak of And who do they send? The guy who was in >> What's the significance? >> Well, then here's the other thing. After the war, he was he remained in prison. They kept him in prison. So this guy didn't participate in the brunt of World War II. He was put in prison before hostilities break out with the British. They keep him in prison and then they

send him to West Germany where he winds up imprisoned to the day he dies and no one's allowed to talk to him. They quarantine him. Rudolph S. Number one, why keep him in prison? What did he do? I mean, you know, he went to Antarctica, came back, tried to make peace with the British. This guy wasn't involved in the hostilities. Why why even put him in prison? Number two, why quarantine him and not allow people to talk to him and keep him there until the day he dies? What did Hes know? What did he see in

not far from McMmero they discovered a a huge like like I don't want to make up a number. It was very large uh black stone octagonal highly polished black stone octagonal structure sticking out like 18 ft above the ice. >> Mhm. And they found the doorway to this thing. And the doorway was like 20 feet by like 20 feet. And it slid open to reveal this octagonal huge chamber that

uh was illuminated. It wasn't clear from what light source with this pale greenish hue. And they started to investigate and they found that this complex consisted of one octagon underneath another. Oh, very important point. The door to the facility had a schwartza inscribed on it etched perfectly into this polished black stone. >> What is that? was the black sun symbol that the SS had put on the floor of the

main meeting hall in Bevelsburg Castle where the highest order of SS knights would meet >> led by Himmler. So that same symbol according to this Navy seal was on the door to this octagonal facility. and they went and explored it and they said it was octagon underneath Octagon until the last lower level of it opened into um antidoluvian ruins into like vastly ancient megalithic structures that were trapped by the ice >> deep underneath the ice. So, it's like

something that was built there to give >> to this, you know, these, I don't know, the ruins of Atlantis, whatever. And I think the Navy Seal also said that they found another way to get down there to the bottom of this, you know, pancake octagonal structure by taking submarines under the ice, US submarines. So they found another way around to get to the same point and surface the sub inside this pocket where like the octagonal structure met the ruins that are trapped

in ice. >> So that's an interesting date. Now you know Linda Molenhow has been fed this information by various people and so forth. So so who knows like whether this account from this Navy Seal is is more disinfo or not. >> Are there any other corroborating >> Well there's operation high jump. >> Mhm. So in 1946, for whatever reason, we United States Navy sent a huge expedition of ships to Antarctica. >> Mhm. And it's worthy of note that this

to whatever catastrophe. It's not entirely clear. I mean they blamed it on weather conditions and there are these stories that I mean there are literally stories like press clippings that when uh Admiral Bird stopped at Chile I don't know if it was Santiago was somewhere some somewhere in Chile on the way back to the United States at a port in Chile he gave a statement to the Chilean press saying that we needed to

for a third World War in which aircraft could cross from pole to pole at tremendous speeds. >> Um and then he was debriefed in Washington and never spoke about it >> And then I believe his direct boss, a guy named James Foresttoall, who was Secretary of the Navy, then became Secretary of Defense, committed suicide in this sort of weird fashion. I mean, >> suicide my ass. They threw him out a >> They threw him out of a window. Yeah.

Um yeah, >> first they sent him to like what was it like mental health health hospitalization or something? >> A naval hospital in Bethesda, Maryland and he was actually um reciting or he was he was writing um the uh Sophocles poem or whatever and he's like the mid-sentence and um his brother had just seen him the day before and said that he was totally fine and of sound mind and then they found his bathrobe tied to the radiator and he had jumped out the window or whatever. The whole thing was sort of like really inexplicable and weird. Um, >> I think they killed him.

>> Do you think it was related to the Admiral Bird stuff? >> It was related to the bird. It was related to basically the creation of the national security state through the the integration of American in military intelligence and industrial structure with the remnants of Nazi >> Interesting. And then do you think are there any other corroborating facts around Antarctica possibly being this kind of Atlantean bastion? I mean is the idea that like there is some sort of

Antarctica. M >> that's what I suspect >> that if the Atlantean civilization was destroyed there by some precipitous flooding and you know Antarctica being pulled into the southern polar region so that it froze over. Oh, I'll tell you another interesting corroborating piece of evidence in a minute. So that it froze over. Look, if we're dealing with this super advanced civilization that had like ZPE, you know, propulsion, of course they had underground facilities. You know, Antarctica is full of mountains. It has mountains arrival

of the Himalayas. Those people would have built built facilities inside mountains and underground. Those facilities would have survived. So there would have been Atlanteans who survived in these facilities. I think it's even speculated now by climate scientists and geoysicists that there could be subterranean parts of Antarctica with pretty warm climate. >> Ah, that's a huge thermal vent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's fascinating. I I also think

>> Yes. Now, the other thing I was going to tell you is corroborative of this >> is that, and we we got into this just a little bit in our first conversation, the flood myths. >> So, there's a version of the Noah's flood story in every culture on Earth. >> Which uh makes it pretty certain that it There's only one myth that's different. It's the same event but it's a different type of story. That's the Iranian >> So in the Iranian version which is

preserved in the Avesta the ancient Iranian scriptures originally Mithraic and then Zoroastrian it says that the Iranian people which you have to understand like when they're using the ter they're using the term Aryan people you know like I said in the Parthion period and before the country was called Arono. So in the Avesta it says that the the you know Arian the Aryan people uh come from an island continent at the center of the world which froze over

>> froze over. >> That it was basically ice came and engulfed it. >> Which is like a tsunami that then >> Okay. So all the cultures all around the world have flood myths, but this one culture says that we come from an island continent which froze over >> and it's at the center of the world. Well, if you you know where you consider the center of the world is arbitrary. If you're living in Antarctica and you notice by the way that all the other

continents are distributed around you, like Plato said at center of the world ocean, you're liable to consider yourself the center of the world. >> And one other interesting point in that regard is that Although the majority of Antarctica prior to this, you know, um, younger dusk catastrophe, >> although the majority of Antarctica would have been where Argentina is today, part of it was already in the southern polar region. >> So, it would have been a place like Patagonia where there there was a place on Atlantis where you come up against

the ice sheet. >> Right? Now, that's interesting because uh center of the world like it could also be taken to mean like the north of the world or the pole of the world. And in fact, in Iranian esotericism, they do say this about this place that it was the pole of the world. >> Uh the north and south poles of the world flip magnetically >> at various intervals, long intervals,

>> but not that long. If we >> say it's like 9,000 years or >> I think it's longer than 10,000 years. I think it's longer than that. Yeah. >> But you know Ed Casey now you know that's all rabbit hole but you know various mediums have have looked at Atlantis and who have and have said things about Atlantis and they describe a civilization that went on for tens of thousands of years which then was brought to this catastrophic end about 12,000 years ago. Right >> now, if Atlantis existed for tens of thousands of years, was a thriving civilization for that long a period of

it would have been when Antarctica was the north pole of the world, >> the northern magnetic pole. >> So when people talk about hyperoreia, the land at the north of the world, and the Germanic people, the Germanic people in the thul gazelle shaft say that Ultima Thula was the northern continent. It fits with when the magnetic pole was in Antarctica and when part of Antarctica was already in the pole, but most of it was where Argentina is today.

>> So all of that somehow I think is >> Very interesting. You do have like a lot of very high net worth people going down there occasionally. Bill Gates likes to go down there. I have no idea. He's probably not communing with aliens or something, but it that is interesting. There's a lot of kind of very wealthy tourism. >> Yeah. Well, I think we're going to find out what's what's there. >> You do? >> Yes. Very soon, unfortunately.

>> So, a number of remote viewers have remote viewed the year 2050. One group was led by Stefan Schwarz and uh Lynn Buchanan also did the same project of remote viewing the world in and other people as well, but these are two very prominent ones. And they all say that there's going to be a catastrophic precipitous sea level >> Not the kind of sea level rise you

expect like a few feet from global warming or whatever, climate change. >> No, no, no. >> And not just a tsunami like you would expect. Another thing that Lynn has talked about is Kra Vieja exploding >> on Los Palmas >> and uh you know the flank of that volcanic mountain collapsing into the Atlantic Ocean which then would create a tsunami that would batter the east coast of the United States, right? And he thinks that that may happen at some point. And by the way, when it was going off, I was in communication with him

being like, "Lynn, do you think this is it? Like, should I leave New York? I was in New York." And he's like, you know, I'd say 50/50. You know, you should get your ass out of there. It's like a coin flip, coin toss at this point. >> Anyway, um but not like a tsunami, okay? Permanent sea level rise >> of between two to 300 ft. >> Meaning every coastal city in the world is going to go underwater by 2050. Every coastal city in the world, that would affect about 4 billion people. >> But I don't know. There are all these predictions in UFO space around 2027.

I'm just telling you the remote viewers all see this. They see >> that all the coastal areas of the world have gone deep underwater. >> You know what would have to happen for that to be the case? >> The Antarctic ice sheet has to melt. >> Which means two things. uh one it means that there's some massive event that you know high energy or something whatever that causes that or a geohysical event of the kind that took place 12,000 years ago. In other

words, another custal slippage. >> That pulls Antarctica back out of the southern polar region. Yeah. >> And then it melts precipitously. >> Or an asteroid. >> Or an asteroid could hit Antarctica and melt the ice sheet all at once. Break it up into ice cubes and then melt it >> So, or who knows? I mean, what? Like, I hope nobody's storing fusion bombs in >> Well, there's that guy there's the Eric Hecker guy who says that um there are like neutrino detectors and emitters on

the South Pole that Rathon in the US aerospace primes are, you know, uh running and that that even caused the Christ Church earthquake in New Zealand. And I I don't know what to make of him. He's a very odd character. I invited him on my show and he got kind of squirrely and fell off. >> I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I mean, Nicola Tesla describes having used tectonic weaponry in his laboratory. He caused an earthquake in Manhattan. Yeah. >> The police broke down his door. >> You know, and they had to take a sledgehammer to the thing. Well, that

some people have this conspiracy that Tesla the Tangusa 1908 Siberia asteroid impact was actually just a Tesla death weapon that was being tested near the North Pole. I don't know if you've ever heard that. certainly have heard it. But you know, I heard an even more interesting explanation of Tongosko, which fits with what we've been discussing and and what we discussed in our last conversation >> cuz the conventional or I don't know if it's a conventional explanation, but the Graham Hancock explanation is that it's a comet air burst from the torid meteor stream and that's that's explains the

impact with the local trees and the crater and that sort of thing. But yeah, what do you think? So, one of the remote viewers trying to remember which one it was, but I I can't remember right now which one. It was one of the prominent people who worked on Stargate and Grill Flame, not like some Cook. >> Okay. It was one of the primary remote I almost want to say it might have been Joe McMonle, but I can't remember exactly which one it was. Anyway, he said he remote viewed the Tongaskka >> And get this. >> He says it was um uh people in a saucer.

>> in a saucer. >> Who were escaping the civilization they come from >> because it was a totalitarian oppressive place and they wanted to leave and they didn't know that there was an explosive timer on the thing so that not a timer, an altitudebased explosive device so that if they came down below a certain altitude, the thing was going to detonate. Mhm. >> And so it had been like pre pre-mined with an explosive that they weren't aware was on board and then they found

out about it >> and he says they went around the planet a few times like trying to figure out what what are we going to do like we can't go down >> and finally they went down and they exploded and that's what caused the Tongaska blast. This is what he claimed. M I'll tell you why I find that story personal contact with, another, you know, military intelligence guy, uh I'll just tell you who it is. Who cares? >> Um when we were having some conversations at his home, he told and

so that their children and grandchildren could enjoy the liberties of our society and escape their oppressive totalitarian system. And he said in particular, a lot of them live in the Colorado Rockies and small towns in the Colorado Rockies. >> He said this. >> He said these men told him this. >> Yeah. Listen to the rest of So he So he said they they live in like small towns in the Rockies and they they pass because they're they look like tall Scandinavian people. >> Mhm. I imagine a lot of their kids are on the basketball team. Mhm.

>> And so he said, "Look, we know that Kit Green at the CIA has some program to access the 23 and me and like whatever databases through some backdoor and that they are screening the entire whoever signs up for these services for a specific genetic variance from the normal homo sapiens population which the CIA knows supposed to be the genetic

marker of these Nordics. >> And they said, "Look, our our children, especially our grandchildren, have no idea where they're from. We tell them stories about how like their grandparents are from Sweden or whatever, and they don't know, you know, we just want them to have lives of peace and liberty here in America. Uh, but the CIA wants to hunt them down. And would you and this was why they met with Lynn. They said would you please go back to these people and tell them we are not trying to take over your government. We just want to live here in

peace and to please leave our children alone. Okay. So this is a story that he told me and um and what I said to him was look if these people next time and it was very interesting. He said two of them sat down with him and one of them stood next to the diner booth as if like he was not just on the lookout but as if he was like creating some kind of a shield around the conversation. And so I said to Lynn, uh, if these

people come back next time, could you please tell them that instead of, you know, selfishly seeking a life of peace and comfort and liberties for their children, they should help us to this fascist deep state that we have in this country. Because if they don't help us do that, soon these liberties that they came here for aren't going to exist anymore and they're going to be living

back under the system that they escaped from. So, you know, they should get in touch and there should be some kind of a coordination to, you know, work on the American deep together so that, you know, this kind of a system that they want to to want to benefit from continues to exist. >> How's that effort going? >> Uh-huh. Crickets. Interesting. Well, I've I anecdotally I've heard some very interesting and weird stories around Nordic looking people in the Rockies.

or like what do they want? Like why would they? I mean you would assume they're kind of nefarious if they are partnering with the Nazis. Um or are they good or is it like way more complicated than that and good and bad are just like human constructs that we're trying to apply to a a paradigm we don't understand? What do you think their intent is? >> It's an arubos. >> What is that? >> It's the snake that's biting its own tail. That alchemical symbol of the snake that's biting its own tail. >> The biggest problem, and I saw this in

some of the comments, you know, in response to our first conversation, the biggest problem that people have with with wrapping their minds around this is the element of time. >> If we're dealing with a timetraveling It means they have a hyperdimensional relationship to human history. if you I mean all these people have these weird taxonomies of 43 different alien species and 10 different kinds of Nordics and the tall whites and Charles

Hall talks about the tall whites and he talks about the Norwegians with 23 Yeah. Okay. >> That was the most insane interview I've ever done. I don't know what to make of >> Here here's the problem. >> Okay. Just let's look at it on a conceptual level. >> Yeah. Leave out the aliens for a minute. Just let's look at time travel on a conceptual level. If you have this scientific breakthrough >> to where you can engineer time machines >> from that moment forward

at any point in the future, you could travel to any point in the past, So if some group of Nordics, whether it's literally the Nazis, >> or whether it's a group of people with a Nordic phenotype, >> at some other point in history, maybe an >> maybe 100 years into the future, some group of people with a Nordic cracks time travel. That means that there are Nordics 10,000

years in our past coming from a hundred years in our future. M >> it means there are Nordics a 100 years in our past coming from 10,000 years in our future. >> It means there are Nordics walking around here today that come from a million years into the future presuming they're able to survive for that long. So the differences in physioamy that we see between let's say whatever the tall whites or let's say the Nordics who could pass for Swedes may simply be differences in evolutionary biology

having to do with very long stretches of >> that we're seeing different phases of the same civilization. Now that civilization may also have fractured >> like like Azimov's foundation right you know where humanity's expanded into the cosmos and you know colonized thousands of planets and so the civilization may have bifurcated or triated or whatever okay and we may be seeing different uh phases in its evolutionary biological development

>> but they may all have had the same origin and the same culture that >> uh breakaway culture uh breakaway culture that first cracked time travel. That's something that I think people have a hard time, you know, wrapping their minds around and will help to make sense out of a lot of the insane cases that we we see. Like I'll give you one example case of Reinhold Schmidt. >> Okay. He was this American

uh from where was he? Was it can't remember it was one of the states like the Dakotas or I can't remember anyway not a highly populated area guy from the country. >> And Reinhold Schmidt was I want to say Nebraska. Anyway, he this is case is from 1957 and he's out driving and his car dies and there are two other uh cars and a tractor that are

also taken out by the EMP of this UFO. So, there were multiple witnesses and these people independently reported >> the incident to the police. >> But Reinhold Schmidt is is the guy who they engage the people who come out of this saucer and they bring him aboard. He says he was engaged by two men. Then when he was brought into the saucer, there were another there was another man and two women. Also, >> the ship was from the outside a complete solid uh piece of aluminum or highly

polished steel. On a upon entering the ship is entirely different. It is transparent. You could look up, see the sky, look down, see the grass below you or see the entire countryside. >> How many people were in the machine? Uh there were six people, four men and two ladies. Did they look like us? Uh yes, they looked uh if they would see them on the street, you couldn't detect them unless you would had seen them on a ship. Did they tell did they tell you what they were doing here? Uh no, they did not. I asked them what they were doing here or what kind of a ship it

was. They said they couldn't tell me that at this time. >> And he says they didn't know Ryan Holt Schmidt. They didn't know I had German ancestry and I spoke German. This guy learned German at university. So, not only did he know some German from being of German ancestry, at that time like a quarter of America's population were of German ancestry. Uh, but he also had studied German at university. So, this is what he claims. He says, "I realized these guys were speaking in high German to each other, >> which the SS used to use

>> as a mark of distinction. >> And he said they they asked him whether he knew anything about the American satellite program. And he said, "I don't know. I would I know anything about the American satellite program. And then he said they went on to predict a number of failures that the US satellite program would have in those early days when we were competing with the Soviets, Sputnik and so forth and then they dropped him off and he went about his business. >> Isn't there some other example of this with Betty and Barney Hill? Famous abduction case in 1961. This interracial couple, you know, it's kind of the

archetypal abduction case. Uh wasn't there some sort of Nazi connection >> Yes. And see, this is one of those cases which has been warped by people where like people have like they've they've uh embellished the folklore and reworked it into where these were like monstrous aliens. But I believe that what you're referring to is that if you look back at Barney Hill's original statements and when they first asked him what did they look like, he said, "Well, they look like Nazis." >> Well, they look like Nazis. >> You saw him through this window. They

said there were a roller window. did was a row of windows. Just a huge row of windows only divided by that prevented it from being one solid

the evil face German Nazi. >> He is not. >> Did he have on a uniform? >> He is. >> How many other abductions are like that where they say they look like Nazis? Um I haven't seen that many.

>> But the important thing is that there are such cases. Oh, I'll tell you something else interesting in that regard. So um one of the comments in response to our first uh conversation was from the daughter of Desmond Leslie. >> Who's that? >> She commented to me on on my ex. So George Adamsky >> co-authored his first book, The Flying Saucers of Landed with this guy Desmond Leslie. He was like a not a ghost writer but like a collab collaborative author,

>> Who would help people write books and she reached out saying that she's the daughter of Desmond Lesie and she said in our family >> Mhm. We her father said always said that it was Nazis who contacted Adamsky >> and they were pretending to be Venusians and that yeah that that so he helped Adamsky write this book where Adamsky claims these people are Venusians and they claimed they were Venusians or some of them come from Mars and whatever. He said that we always knew it was Nazis

who were pretending to be Venusians. They had like a, you know, disguised themselves and created a theatrical psychological operation. Yeah. >> To present themselves as if they were >> This is so bizarre. There are a couple other interesting stories. One is, you know, Paul Melon was one of the founders of the CIA. >> There's a story that he told his grandson. This guy who's still alive today is John Warner IV. >> Yes. And um I guess he's having some martinis with Paul Melon. And you know in his third martini Paul Melon says in

I was in modernday you know uh Czech Republic and I was or was it Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia? Czechoslovakia. Okay. And and and uh in his third in the course of his third martini he says that in 1944 I was in modern day Czechoslovakia and I was there with Alan Dulles. They were on some tech retrieval mission and they were standing on top of a flying saucer. >> And my grandfather said, "Look, you know, we we were in a facility, a hanger, and we saw, you know, a German flying disc and I said, you know, oh, is

that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines?" And he laughed and he said, "No." >> And so that's a really interesting fact as well. And then um Harold Malgrren bringing it back to the top said that the Magenta craft was actually exfiltrated from Italy via the Nazi rat lines which people like Reinhard Galen were helping to kind of orchestrate. And it was by the Knights of Malta. And Reinhard Galen was part of this Monte

Carlo group which was this kind of elite of the elite uh Knights of Malta faction uh which is fascinating. And this faction comprised both Nazis, people like Reinhard Galen, and Jews like Henry >> that's right. And Otto Scorzani is working with the Mossad in the early >> And Scorzani was also part of this Knights of Malta faction. >> Yeah. I was invited, by the way, to join the Knights of Malta at one point. >> Why do you think you were invited? Because you started to to brush up against their >> Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I I

>> Why did you decline? First of all, I was being invited to participate in some kind of initiation ritual in Malta. >> And I happened to know that the the fellow who invited me had a track record of recording people involved in sex acts and using it as blackmail material and so forth. Okay. >> So I was not about to go to mold like >> and besides by the way it's just that kind of thing. Okay. and he was a member of a dozen different secret societies. This guy at a high

level, including the Knights of Molto, I would never join any such organization. Just for the record, >> Masons tried to get me at one point, high level, Masons wanted to bring me in. I will never join any such organization because at the moment you do that, you lose your independence. Mhm. So anyway, but um absolutely this stuff I've heard the same stuff about uh Dulles and the you know witnessing the saucer and checks the lock and so on and so forth. >> The interesting thing about Alan Dulles which I think we briefly did touch on in

our first conversation is that although it might have been actually when we were on the phone Allan Dulles and his brother John Foster Dulles >> funded the rise of the Nazis. >> Yeah. together with uh JP Morgan Chase and Rockefeller >> from out of New York. >> Yeah. So did Prescott Bush. >> Oh yeah. And so look, the point is this that in a lot of ways both paperclip and the absorption of the Galen network were a homecoming. It's almost as if Nazi Germany was set up as a field laboratory

to do some highly unethical things. >> Which would then be harvested back to America. So is your and then is your world model or mental model something like there's like an elite strata and these are the names we're throwing out now um you know of people who come from some of whom come from these older families some of whom are just like you know the kind of elite ruling class of the United States >> uh that might be coordinated with either incidentally or deliberately with this

[snorts] sort of nonhuman faction or or not even non-human faction You don't like that word, this sort of Nordic >> Yeah. But it's it's even um more of a tangled web than that. You see, because of the time element I was talking about, >> it could be that some of these elites have had contact with these Nordics for a long time. >> But there's another possibility, too. M >> it's a possibility which you know I speculatively investigate in closer

>> and that's that these elites become the >> that if you look at how obsessed these people were with eugenics I lay it out in closer encounters at length how many of these elites in America in Britain in Germany but people think that like somehow the Nazis came up with eugenics. No, they were playing catch-up. The Nazi leadership was saying like these Americans are going to dominate the world with all their eugenics programs. We better like catch up fast. >> The world leader in eugenics from the 1890s until the 1930s was the United States of America.

>> Yeah. Well, then they got it from people like Ceil Roads and you know a lot of you know 19th centur phronology and that sort of thing. >> Yes. But when you look back at that era all the top scientists, the top decision makers, federal judges and certainly the aristocrats were ardently pro eugenics. Yeah. >> Okay. Even like Margaret Sanger and people who you think did these days are associated with the left and like Planned Parenthood and all that, they

were ardent eugenicists. if you combine eugenics, the in other words, the will to create a master race >> together with oultism, >> right, early psychical research and cultivation of oult abilities >> together with exotic propulsion It converges on what the Nordics become. >> So for all we know, I said Oroberos earlier, right? What's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is

contacting itself in the past and reinforcing itself in the past >> and trying to pull the timeline towards itself or something >> actualize itself transmporally actualize >> It's very interesting. And so do you think there would be competing factions like the Nordics would be fighting against other possible timeline variants that want to actualize themselves? >> I think that's who the Ashuras are. So, you know, we have throughout all of human mythology >> this this uh account of rebels, rebel gods or rebel angels

>> who break with the program, right? And the Sanskrit texts call them the Ashuras. The Greeks call them the Titans and but they're in every mythology of the planet. It's always this rebel faction that exists that's trying to break free from the control system. >> So, yes, I think so. And you know, I think Lynn's story >> is another corroboration of that that there's people who don't like the program and they don't like the society they're from. But is I don't know this idea that the Nordics or whatever are this homogeneous sort of, you know, one

world authoritarian, you know, government, you know, these these sort of perfect people who've been eugenicized to no end, and then they're fighting this sort of rebel angel faction. Doesn't that feel too clean? like what if there are factions of the Nordics that are good or whatever. Yeah, I I just don't know, you know, or do do you think that >> I think here here's I think here um a statement that Peter Teal made when he was being asked about the close encounter phenomenon on Rogan is very

>> If you have um faster than light travel, there's something um really crazy that has to be true on a cultural, political, social level. And there may be other solutions but I'll give you my two. Um one of one of them is that um you need complete totalitarian controls and it is like it is the pe the individuals they might be

might not be perfect they might be demons doesn't matter but you have you have a demonic totalitarian control of your society where it's like you have you have like parasych ological mind meld with everybody and no one can act independently of anybody else. No one can ever launch a warp drive weapon and everybody who has that ability isn't like a m mind link with everybody else or or something something like that. You can't have libertarian individualistic

free agency, >> right? And then I think the other the other version socially and culturally is they have to be like perfectly altruistic non-self-interest. They have to be angels. And so the pizula literal thing I' I'd come to is the aliens. It's not that they might be demons or angels. They must be demons or angels if you have faster than light travel. >> Yeah. Yeah, he's basically saying it's

either angels or demons >> angels and that's the language he used which I take exception to that angels or demons because I think maybe in a nichian fashion the moral evaluation there needs to be flipped >> that the angels are the ones controlling the totalitarian hierarchical hiveminded system by the way and you know I used to teach comparative religion in all the Abrahamic religions one thing that they consistently say about the angels is that they have no will of their own. Mhm. >> The angels have no real individuality.

They have no real will of their own. They do the will of God, >> which like binds them together with a single purpose. >> That's like a totalitarian society controlled by an AI. >> Okay. Now, I'm going to go somewhere really disturbing with this, but it >> an angel just means messenger generically, you know? So, >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Evangelos >> and the Hebrew original meant the same >> And so, like for example, the angels who come to Abraham Mh. >> There three men. >> And uh they they did look particularly

beautiful because the one who goes to Sodom to retrieve Lot >> the leerous men want to have sex with this guy cuz he's so good-looking. And by the way, the Nordics are known for that. And they're known to be like super good-looking people. They look like supermodels, basically. >> Colonel Alexander, when he told me the story of the the couple of Nordics that he saw in the casino hotel in Las Vegas, he said they were like that, too. They were like out of the pages of a fashion magazine. Anyway, place I want to go from there uh about

the angels and angelic hierarchy and you know why in fact it would be so simple. You you said it, you know, it seems too >> U gods versus titans, right? Davas versus Asheras. No, for the reason Teal >> you would have exactly that bifurcation and it would be a very black and white conflict between an extremely repressive hierarchical totalitarian society that allows for almost no individual and on the other hand individuals who

who don't want to live in such a world and who are trying to find a way to carve out some space of freedom >> and but who have the same technology >> and so the disturbing place I want to So uh from there is relevant to the subject of my latest book which is is a study of the afterlife death [clears throat] the transitional state Tibetans call the Bardo state and rebirth evidence for reincarnation. So and in the course of researching this book I've looked into

the hippie dippy woo woo narrative about near-death experiences. is an account that Robert Monroe, you know, who founded the, you know, Monroe Institute and so forth that the CIA used to use sometimes as a place to conduct advanced remote viewing, Robert Monroe in his second book, Far Journeys, I think from 1985,

astral projections, he discovered that we're living in control system that is managed by entities who work for a demiurge that's harvesting us for what he called >> He said that we're in a louch farm. That are being deliberately subjected to conditions that create extreme emotional states. Mhm. Uh extreme suffering, misery, fear, terror, ecstasy, extreme

desire, you know, uh pathological impulses, you know, and these are all being used to basically generate a form of energy that they can harvest from the human soul, >> including after death, where they basically juice souls for the luch. called Carla Turner. >> Who I believe was killed, even though

she supposedly died of cancer at the age of 48. The CIA has something that mimics a very fast acting cancer. And they've used this on a number of occasions, to kill prominent people, I believe, also including the Shaw of Iran. >> Really? Yeah. >> Who else? >> You remember uh Peter Jennings did this special on UFOs? Do you remember that in the night whenever it was that he died shortly before his death? >> Mhm. He did this huge uh special on UFOs for which he had

recorded like days and days worth of footage with all kinds of prominent whistle whistleblowers >> and it was supposed to air on prime time television with him as an air. Yeah, they aired it but what they aired excluded 90% of the material. >> I didn't know that. Peter Jennings did a UFO special including a lot of >> I had no idea. >> Like it was supposed to be like a multi-part program that would air over weeks or something. And he he records this thing gets cancer drops dead.

>> Like within a year of like this program >> I had no idea to know about any of this. >> Like Walter Kronite 2.0. >> So that's another case of it. >> And so I think Carla Turner was killed by this. In any case, Carla Turner >> uh did interviews with a lot of uh ex experiencers, abductees who reported the same kinds of things as Robert Monroe did in far journeys >> where they said that we are in a control system that's being managed from out of

a metallic sphere just beyond the earth. And they describe the inside of this thing. But I think going back to our first conversation, what they're describing is the inside of the moon. M that the there is a what we might call using the Soviet language a psychotronic control system, >> a kind of spectral technology inside of the moon which is impinging on and manipulating humans in

the afterlife state. >> What? And it's not uh omnipotent. >> Yeah. It's not a flawless system. So, it's possible to assert your free will and self-determination in the face of this system, but it's very difficult. So, a lot of people have had near-death experiences, for example, they describe being pulled toward this light. It's like they couldn't resist going into the light. They tried in some cases, but it was almost as if it was an electromagnet like pulling them into it.

>> Sure. And then when they go into the one of the most common things that's described is that people are shown their dead relatives. >> And religious authority figures like >> and or or like if you're a Hindu, you see Hindu gods. Interestingly, >> I'll give you a terrifying case from a Hindu in a minute. >> So you're pulled into this light and then they show you your dead relatives and they show you Jesus and whatever. >> Well, here's the problem, Jesse, is that if you look at Dr. Dr. Ian Stevenson's

extremely rigorous research on reincarnation that he did at the University of Virginia for decades on children's spontaneous memories of past lives. All the cases show that the average interval between death and reincarnation is something like it could be anywhere from 6 months to 3 years >> It's usually ne not more than several So, when you are having a near-death and your grandmother and and let's say you're in your 60s or Yeah. in your 60s

and you see your grandmother who died when you were in your 20s. >> Mhm. That's [ __ ] You are being shown an artificially generated similacrim of your dead relatives to manipulate you >> by a psychotronic technology. >> Oh, this is getting >> by a psychotronic technology. >> Will you really think that? >> Yes, I do. >> And I say that as someone who was, you know, at the bedside at at the death bed of a couple of my relatives who were

experiencing these things. You know, when people are very close to death, they also see dead relatives come around their hospital beds. very commonly reported and so in the case one case was my great aunt or I was there while she was like describing to not just not describing she was having conversations with dead relatives that you know the other family members knew oh that's so and so she's talking to so- and so as if he's like in the hospital room and the most striking case was with my own grandmother my Persian grandmother uh you know to whom I owe the fact that I fluently speak Persian because both of

my parents worked when I was grow growing up and they would leave me with her during the days and She hardly spoke any English. So I learned like Persian practically as my first language in New York. So I was very close to my grandmother. And when she was dying, this exact thing happened. She starts talking to my dead grandfather. Now my my Persian grandfather died when my father was four. Okay, that guy reincarnated 60 70 years ago. So she's talking to something that's being projected into our mind

psychotronically. But how do you know it's being projected psychotronically and it's not just a function of her own old age and sure sort of >> sure I mean that's the conventional skeptical response I would say based on what Robert Monroe described in terms of the terrain of the afterlife through his astral projections which then other people at the Monroe Institute were able to replicate and based on the kinds of accounts that let's say Carla Turner got from abductees of being taken to places

that were not just like, you know, like space alien bases. There were places where the soul was being handled as some kind of anformational matrix andor energy source. >> This I mean um John Lear would say that there was like a soul catcher on the moon, but he also was kind of crazy and would say a lot of stuff that you know probably was BS. >> I guess my point is we don't need to dep I've heard that by the way. I've heard him talk about that. My point is we don't need to depend on him. Other people have said this and let me give you one more example of somebody who's

described this is >> oh god I hope I don't get this name wrong Scott Turner or Scott Scott Trevor or Scott Turner >> uh was a leader of a uh a team of remote and these are private sector remote viewers I think of the kind who offer service corporate services and stuff like that >> who did a remote viewing on the word >> Moksha. So what was in the envelope was moksha, the target they were blind to.

>> Mocha means liberation in Sanskrit. It's like how you get out of the wheel of >> And so he does this session with his team. And long story short, he comes back with this horrific account that all of them do. Of course, they're all working the same target, lying to the same target, and they're all doing this independently. And then they compare notes, and they said that you can't achieve moka. >> Mhm. Because as you try to escape the there's something that grabs you and bends you back toward the earth. Like if you're a ray of light, it's like it

bends the light that's your soul back toward the earth like a what do you call them? A lensing effect. And he said it's originating from some uh celestial body near the earth >> and that it is part of a vast machinery of energy extraction which was set up in our solar system at the end of a war that devastated the solar system. He said that like millions of years ago there were these horrendous people who

wanted to establish this energy harvesting system here and wanted to exploit humanity for this purpose and there was a rebellion against them and the the conflict was waged across the entire solar system. Now this is interesting in terms of what we discussed regarding Mars in our first conversation and the apparent devastation of Mars in some kind of nuclear war according to Dr. So Turner and his group said um Turner Trevor Scott whatever this remote viewer and his it's going to be in my new book

>> but uh you can find it Google remote viewing mosha. >> People were so disturbed by the video that the guy took it down. He has all his other videos up but he took this one down but other people uploaded it >> to other sites. And uh so he says the rebels who wanted to like preserve human freedom and self-determination didn't want humans to be harvested and exploited this way. They lost the war. >> And ever since then we've been inside basically this prison >> where we are spiritually manipulated and

harvested for our energy. >> When we originally described this site, it's a fence or a grid around a place. This acts as a barrier. It collects and traps people, things or objects. This is actually an innocent planet that is being used in an unintended way. And this meters the flow and acts as a checkpoint and an access point for an external force. Uh, one viewer described it as similar to hocus pocus and in a way of it's it's energetics that the viewer wasn't familiar with and it's

occurring on a crowded planet. It's a deliberate function that acts as a cage. People have been dispersed here and a form of perverted injustice is occurring. Third viewer described it as a large naturally formed object like a planet that acts as an animal pen. This is a refugee camp tucked away out of sight and a magnetic force. It stirs, agitates, and works in a cylindrical manner like clockwork over long expanse of time.

Uh in my session, my work described a planetary system that's extremely crowded and jammed. Ghostly voices are flooding into this place and it's incredibly harrowing for them. Uh it's a bone chilling experience. As a viewer, when I remote viewed this, I had descriptions that it made me upset in the session. It elicited contempt for what was going on at the site. But uh the activity at the site was this concept of a net that's been spun. And it's an operation of catch and release on a grand scale. So there's a massive

grid that exists around this planet and it acts as a checkpoint, a waypoint or rest stop where souls are drained and then that in turn energizes something >> H that's so depressing. I mean how do you have is there any aspirational streak within that? Do you believe in God? Do you think if you >> I believe in Prometheus. In other words, in other words, the reason that Prometheus has become such a central archetype to my philosophical project

>> is because if you look at the structure of this myth, it encompasses all the major elements of most religious belief systems, but in a way that's empowering to humanity. >> Yeah. So, for example, in the myth in Prometheian myth, >> we're not created by Yahweh or by Enlil or by whatever uh celestial tyrant wants to loos harvest us. >> We're created by this genius like artistic spirit who rebelled against

Zeus, right? Because he thought Zeus was a sadistic tyrant. And we're created by him in his image to be a race of new gods. And the only reason that we don't wind up fulfilling that destiny is that Prometheus is punished by Zeus, right? And chained in the Caucasus and has his liver devoured. What does the devouring of the liver mean? The liver was used uh for um fortuneelling by the ancient Greeks. It was like crystal ball gazing. So they believed that they could read

the future uh by like you know looking into the blackness of the liver by candle light and so forth. >> So what that symbol means is that the eagle of Zeus wants to know what Prometheus knows. >> So not only were we created by this this you know positive spirit also knows more than Zeus and can see further than Zeus. So our creator is more knowing than the sadistic tyrant

>> and our creator wants to cultivate in us the same kind of forethought, the same kind of visionary creative capacity, right? the in in Escalas's writings and in various Greek texts on Prometheus, it's very clearly understood that the fire that Prometheus stole from the forge of Hesus and Olympus and brought to humanity is a symbol of techn meaning both uh craft in the sense of the arts and craft in the sense of technological science where we get the word technology from.

>> So it's a means of human empowerment, right? But wouldn't you say a lot of modern technological progress is not empowering at all? And in fact, it sort of clamps down on human flourishing. And so like you have, you know, the American Prometheus would be Oenheimer and created, you know, a a nuclear bomb. >> How do how do you know he didn't give us the means to defend ourselves, right? Why are these Nordics obsessed with disarming us of nuclear weapons? M >> the only defense that we would have against such a civilization if indeed

it's lording over us is precisely our nuclear arsenal. >> So you think but then couldn't you sort >> if you really had like 360 you know control over over the world wouldn't you be able to sort of like pit people against each other? I mean in a world of mutually assured destruction you end up with this kind of weird uh like holding pattern of geopolitics where tensions are rising but people themselves are sort of you know in these sort of Orwellian you know uh farmhouses or

something and they they're sort of withering away and so that that doesn't seem particularly empowering. Maybe a short quick answer to that, but then I want to answer your your bigger question >> or even an information technology. >> I want to answer a bigger question about the misuse of technology, but just quick short answer to that one. >> I think the reason that we destroyed the Soviet Union, >> which I consider the worst mistake ever made by the United States. >> Why do you think that's the worst >> Is because the Soviet Union and the United States could have and should have and would have eventually combined their forces against these Nordics.

>> I think that what John F. Kennedy wanted to do. >> And what his brother RFK was going to resume as policy. >> Was an alliance with the Soviet. After all, remember, we had fought the Nazis together with the Soviet Union. Was an alliance with the Soviet Union where we would both go to the moon together and if necessary, we would both defend the freedom and independence of humanity using nuclear weapons together against this threat. And as bad as some people think

communism is, I mean, I'm no fan. I'm no communist, no fan of communism, but look at the Soviet uh cosmism and how progressive it is. >> But JFK was trying to defang the American nuclear arsenal. So if he actually viewed the Nordics as some sort of threat, he was trying to disarm >> in in no way do I believe for a minute that JFK would have been one of these total nuclear disarmament people. I don't I don't buy it. >> You don't think so? >> I don't buy it. I think he would have built an alliance with the Soviet Union

where our respective arsenals are not principally aimed at each other but a remember going back to Ian Fleming and >> I think JFK figured it out >> or had it told to them by Eisenhower >> that there's this third power in the >> cuz there the the you know he had these back channels with Kruev and this guy Norman Cousins who was a family friend was going back and forth and >> the rumor was that he wanted full Day taunt and and disarm armament >> and he wanted to go to the moon with the >> Yeah, they want he wanted to do some sort of cooperative space program. But

that um yeah, but still the the nuclear disarmament part would go against some sort of belief that you know we were trying to defend ourselves against some >> In any case, the reason I think that it was the worst mistake we ever made >> is because there are far worse things than Soviet communism >> and Nazism is one of them in my view. M in my view that kind that kind of you know SS fascist mentality yeah it's worse than Soviet cosmism and like what Constantine Silkovski wanted for the

future of mankind in my view. >> Well I think that Tilowski stuff is interesting but that but the um I mean this communism you know both are horrible but communism killed more >> I know and way more globally. >> Yeah. And that's not necessarily the measure of the ethics of a system. Like for example um very long time but I'll give you a very short okay >> suppose that um the Islamic state of

Iraq and Syria >> Mhm. had metastasized and we weren't able to contain it and that let's say they succeeded in toppling the Saudi royal family and you saw recently how Saudi Arabia and Pakistan made this strategic alliance where now Saudi Arabia is protected by Pakistan's nuclear weapons and besides it's been rumored for years that Saudi Arabia paid for Pakistan's nuclear weapons to be developed so they have Saudi barcodes on them. So suppose ISIS succeeded in taking over the you know Riad and then subsequently Mecca and Medina >> and then they wind up with Pakistan's

nuclear arsenal and we get this metastasizing Islamic state in the world >> well you know what it would be necessary to go to war with that thing. >> And a lot of people will be dead as a result of that. >> Now is that because of the evils of American liberal capitalism? No. It's because we had to deal with a very difficult problem. >> Okay. and we would we we would be doing it to defend human freedom and progress. >> From their own perspective, the Soviets considered themselves to be the standardbearers of liberation from

oppression and progress, including scientific and technological innovation against forces of regression and tyranny, right? And you know, to give them some credit, look, they put women in space before we did. >> Okay? So I I think that you know this decision to dismantle the Soviet Union was horrendous and I think it was very deliberate and guess who was behind it. Well a principal figure I mean behind the death >> cuz look it's one thing to keep them as an enemy. It's good to have them as an

>> You want to have good rivals. >> Who would you say is behind? >> We have a [ __ ] rival today. China is a [ __ ] rival to have >> because it is a collectivistic >> Yeah. hiveminded society fundamentally it's no longer mauist by the way. I mean you you know it's morphed into some kind of national socialism that's extremely confusionist and collectivist. That's a that's a [ __ ] rival to have. You want to have a rival that makes you

the best you can be. And the Soviets were that we kept each other on on our >> Yeah. The we now we're in all these sort of bad games, local games with the Chinese where it's like the AGI race. >> You could say the modern academia in the US is kind of like the confusion bureaucracy or something. >> You know, I think a lot of people care a lot about IQ and like, you know, genetic engineering, which is, you know, probably not the race you want to be you want to be running or whatever. Um, you know, you could think of social media in the US as like the aversion of the social credit score or something. So,

there are a lot of these weird analoges. Yeah. That um, you know, [clears throat] >> Yeah. It's not great. And then like put, you know, in in kind of the COVID paradigm, like they have a surveillance state and then it's like, you know, now we have one. >> So, the Soviets were a good rival. They were a good rival. We should have kept >> as that >> instead of like this [ __ ] traditionalist Russia that we have now. Orthodox neoorthodox Torist system under Putin. This is a disaster and it was done deliberately. And who dealt the death blow? George HW

>> Whose father Prescott Bush >> was one of Hitler's men in America. >> Okay. So, and of course he was the head of the CIA. George HW Bush was one of these American presidents who actually had full access to the UFO file because he had been briefed when he was deep in the deep state. >> Okay. And there's connections, you know, from him to the Kennedy assassination and and so >> yeah, he went missing when Kennedy was assassinated. And then he was supposed to brief I think Carter wanted him to brief him on UFOs, but he then he wanted

to be, you know, um made director of the CIA, which he eventually was made direct director, but like you know, there was this sort of quid proquo thing there. >> And I believe it's been since confirmed that he was in Dallas. He was in Dallas >> he definitely was in Dallas, I think. And I I think he met with everybody on Clint Merchettson's ranch or something around that time too. And >> yeah, I mean it it would have made sense. He was like this skull and bones kids who he was in with, you know, James Jesus Angleton who was a dulosis acolyte. And >> you know, he's the second politician to ever use the term new world order in a

>> The first being Adolf Hitler. >> Really? Yeah. >> Oh, that's fascinating. Okay. So that's who dealt the death blow to the Soviet >> and I think it was a huge mistake. >> That's really interesting. So you think that was part of some sort of >> uh one world order plan or something? >> Fascinating. Well, I don't know. I mean that they say that it was like um you know the priest, the general, and the businessman or whatever. there was an alliance between, you know, multiple

different factions in the US that united, you know, the country against communism at the time. So, but you're saying that George H >> country was always united against communism. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have had the Soviet Union as a >> You're saying the escalation and the escalation in the 80s. >> Yeah. And the decision to really collapse the system, the Soviet system, >> which by the way, what we did to to bring that about was horrendously unethical. M >> namely the creation of al-Qaeda, >> the United States creation of al-Qaeda in Pakistan to send them into

Afghanistan to make something viable from out of the Taliban to fight the Soviets in a protracted war of attrition to demoralize the Soviet citizenry and bankrupt the Soviet Union and eventually collapse the system. But wasn't that I don't know an example of like the a triple bank shop gone wrong or something like you know it is true that like we trained the muhajaden and trained Osama bin Laden. >> There were multiple kinds of mojaheden like some of them Ahmed Shaw Masoud

leading the northern alliance was a decent guy and the CIA killed him right before 911. M okay. We we wiped United States wiped out all the moderate elements in Afghanistan and sent in al-Qaeda to train all the most rabid Islamic fundamentalists and did this for the explicit purpose of defeating the Soviet Union >> as if a Soviet Afghanistan would have been a bad thing. >> Afghanistan becoming a province of the Soviet Union would have been the best thing that ever happened to the Afghan >> you know. >> Yeah. And that this was like Charlie

Wilson's war or whatever in what was it 79 or >> Yeah. 77 77 79. Yeah. >> Interesting. Yeah. Um Okay. Uh who who is David Paulades? David Paul. Okay. So, okay. Well, one of the most disturbing aspects of the close encounter phenomenon is its intersection with missing person's cases. >> So, there's this researcher David Pitus.

Politis. Pitus, I think it's Pitus, David Pitus, who has written a whole series of books called Missing 411, >> Missing 411 series of books, exhaustively researched. He's been to all the national parks in the country, >> which unbeknownst to most people are hotspots for disappearances of of, you know, large numbers of individuals go missing in our national parks. And the devil's in the details of these cases. Uh because you have to look at

how well-trained some of these hikers or hunters are. >> Who disappear and leave their provisions behind. >> Yeah. Like sometimes folded perfectly >> uneaten food. >> So presum if if they were there's no remains, not like a bear ate them or something. And you know, if they were starving out there for days, you you expect that their candy bar wouldn't be left or whatever, you know, and they leave their weapons behind. >> And and their stuff is littered over

large distances in some cases. M some of the worst cases are ones involving children where like a child will go off a a trail at let's say a summer camp that's on the edge of a national park and the child will go missing and then the child's body will be found thousands of feet higher >> um but not until months later. >> So the search services will come in and they'll scour the entire area. there

won't be a single trace of this kid. Then like after a hiatus of weeks or remains of the kid will be found but like at a much higher elevation like it was dropped there. >> Okay. And long story short, I mean I I cite this in in some detail in Closer Encounters, uh, David Pitus's various books, but he discovered a connection between this and Close Encounters where in the same areas people will go missing, people saw UFOs. >> And he also discovered that the feds

have case files on this and hiding them. >> Interesting. Federal authorities particularly the FBI has a whole like uh archive of this type of >> Which they are keeping secret >> of people who have gone missing in national parks and potential connection to the close encounter phenomenon. >> So and and one of the most interesting things about this is temporal >> So for example, there's one case where some young woman not everyone goes

then eventually she finds her way out and people tell her she's been missing for a lot longer than she perceived. >> And she tells them when she was in there she ran across one other hiker who was also lost. And for a while there were fellow travelers and then they decided to part ways and both independently try to find a way out. She describes this other woman that she ran into while she was lost. The description fits to someone who went lost went missing there like a decade or more ago >> and was never fed.

>> You follow? >> So it's like there's a local spatial temporal vortex >> where this poor girl who who this hiker ran into had been there for like a >> And she was still trying to get out >> suspended in time. >> Yes. And the h this hiker got out and the other girl that she ran into while she was in the forest never did. Hm. >> Okay. Which sounds like the Bermuda Triangle but on land. >> These are these mountains exist everywhere. There's one in Zimbabwe actually near Rua where the famous sighting occurred in the '90s. In fact,

I wanted to go and I asked uh a friend who's in touch with local authorities like hey can my friend go hiking on this thing and they were extremely uh you know like serious about like no the mist send tends to descend on this mountain and people consistently go missing and all the authorities are aware of that. >> that's pretty remarkable. >> and so you think it's some sort of like um transtemporal suspension area or >> And the other thing that's consistently reported in these cases where the person

is found eventually or they they can make it back out of the pocket. >> Or or there there's another interesting type of cases where it's more than one person, right? So, it's like a group of >> And one of them goes missing and the others come back. >> Mhm. And the ones who come back saying right before he disappeared, right before Charlie disappeared, there was no sound. >> All the insects went silent. It was like we couldn't hear a leaf moving. >> Which is exactly what people describe around UFOs. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's also often

fingernails grew faster on the mountain or whatever. >> Um there are a few of these all around the world. Sedona, you know, Arizona is a classic example. Um you have some places in Washington, Tacoma, Washington. Skinwalker Ranch would be an example maybe in Utah. Uh and and and all of these places seem to have electromagnetic anomalies as well. >> Um geomagnetic anomalies. Um okay. Who is Roger Koy and what's his take on the

I don't want to give the impression from a lot of the things that we've discussed that somehow I only focus on the nuts and bolts aspect of close encounters. Prometheus and Atlas is is basically a philosophical study of parasychology you know and so it deals with uh the whole plethora of evidence for the occult. And it's obvious that you can't separate close encounters from the oult. Even in the case of these Nordics,

they appear to be, you know, people with adept ESP. They're extremely uh highly adept psionic um you know, psionic uh psionically capable people. So in that sense even when you're dealing with the Nordics like Adamsky or you know Billy Meyer was dealing with them there's an element of the occult there because also perceptions can be manipulated by you know adept >> and by people with telekinesis

with with highly trained PK >> but there's a whole other uh there's a whole other type of of cases there's a there's a whole other set of cases that as I suggested in our first conversation simply cannot be encompassed by this nuts andbolts interpretation of Nordics flying around in electrogravidic devices where it looks like we're dealing with some kind of a uh superigh

>> that's able to manipulate perceptions on a large scale and manifest uh sort of uh uh transmogrifications of phenomena like to to be able to pro produce all kinds of shape-shifting um miragages and uh you know >> Of the kind that John Ke focused his research on. >> You see it in his study of all the weird

poor similacra of human beings. >> And so and they would speak as if either they were in a messic trance or as if someone was broadcasting what they were supposed to say to them. Yeah. With a And I really got to thinking about this and in uh when I was writing Closer Encounters and comparing it to like the stuff that happened to Skinwalker Ranch. We talked about this during the first conversation. I think the instance of the camera that had all the duct tape taken off. Point being that enough

things happened to Skinwalker Ranch for someone like Colonel Alexander to formulate what he called precognitive sentient phenomena. In other words, he came to believe that there was a singular intelligence at work on Skinwalker Ranch that had a precognitive ability and a psychoinetic ability where it was able to anticipate what the researchers would do. >> And manipulate them. >> Uh from out of this for knowledge and engage in basically like um you know

physical manipulation of things without being seen. >> Right. almost as if it's recoding the world on the on the base the base information physics level, right? Uh and Jacques Valet talks about this also in his book um on the the the crash that took place right after the Trinity test, the the Trinity book. He says that these praying mantis looking creatures, the the Mexicans who ran into them described them as looking

like praying mantises. They said at least their heads were they were buglike and their heads were manted shaped. >> Valet says that he thinks that the object that crashed is some conceptual hybrid the uh casing of the Trinity bomb and the casing of one of the bombs that we dropped in Japan. I forget it was little little man or fat boy. fat man or little

>> But he said it's like this object made no sense. When they went into it, they didn't find sufficient scientific equipment to explain >> avocado shaped. >> Yeah, it was like an avocado shaped thing. But he said he looked at the shape of it in comparison to what the Trinity bomb looked like and what one of the bombs dropped on Japan looked like and the fact that there wasn't enough scientific equipment inside this thing for it to be a viable flying object of any kind. M >> and he speculated as to whether the thing was coded to materialize on an information physics level

>> in a way that was meant to send a signal to us regarding the development of nuclear weapons. >> The trinity and then the the you know the bomb dropped on Japan. >> And what stepped out of this were manted type creatures. Now this is all to answer about Roger Telw but I have to set it up. All right. So, a number of people have seen these mant including Terrence McKenna. There was one instance where one of McKenna's girlfriends had taken I forget too much of a certain drug.

I don't remember if it was DMT or if it was LSD or what it was, but she she was way too high on something >> and she seemed to be fading out. He seemed he thought he was going to lose And as she was dying, she saw and so she lived to tell the tale, right? She saw behi. So he's looking at her and like trying to tend to her and she sees up above and behind Terrence McKenna a huge uh UFO made of

>> And it's close enough and I guess the dome is big enough that she can see that mantids are in it. >> Okay. Energetic mantids. I forget what happens, but somehow like he does something that brings her back to life and like there's some huge reaction from out of these mant. >> Then there's the case of um of uh Ted Owens. Ted Owens was a psychoinetic adept who

he tried to garner a lot of attention. He tried to get the attention of the US government. He wanted them to use his psychoinetic powers against the Soviet Union and they he got really aggravated that they weren't taking him seriously. So he would do really uh literally incendiary things in order to get noticed and be taken seriously like start forest fires and supposedly he could like direct lightning bolts. >> Yeah. Jeffrey Michionlo who wrote a biography of him called Mr. Yeah. Mr. PK or PK man. The PK man. I think he was on

then have them be detected on radar. >> Okay. And um >> but I mean this would be the whole Jake Barber like what Skywatcher is trying to do with like human psionic assets >> right now just just to underline the seriousness of this case at at one point he was in an airplane and he was bragging to some stewardist about a magazine article that you know that had been written on him that he was reading. and like she wasn't taking him seriously or something. >> And so he wills the plane ahead of them to crash and it does as a civilian

airliner crash. Kills a whole bunch of >> they have received here at Jamaica Hospital, they've received 14 survivors from the plane crash. Most of them Norwegians, tourists who had been on a trip to the south and the southwest and were heading home for Norway. Okay. So the guy was a murderer. Okay. He killed a lot of people. >> Including there's suspicion. I mean, Michelov took it seriously that he may have caused the Challenger crash because Yes. Well, when the US government wouldn't take him seriously, Ted Owens wrote a series of threatening letters to

>> So these mant Okay, now here's the cream of the crop case and which takes us right into Kalwa and surrealist art. Rajar Kalwa was a great French the case of um uh David Huggin. So David Huggin um was a I think New York-based artist. He's from the South, but he wound up eventually living in New York City. And back when he was in the South when he was growing up from childhood, he had

all these encounters with mantids. And he claimed that the mantids were in charge of these little grays and also these weird hybrid beings who would show up and interact with him. And he eventually claimed to have developed a relationship with one of these hybrids and to have been taken aboard their craft and shown a whole bunch of fetuses that were uh grown based on, you know, I

guess his having inseminated this hybrid And he was also taken to places underground where he said the mantids were in charge. like places like it clearly seemed to him. He was underneath the surface of the earth, cavernous, you know, rocky underground places that smelled like dirt and earth. And the mantis were in charge of all this. Now, what's particularly interesting in the case of this guy is that he's literally an artist. So, the output of this case winds up being this

tremendous body of artwork that's bizarre. It's there's something childlike about it, but there's also erotic aspects of it. And it's a very interesting expression at least on the level of folklore. about the mantids? Because if you read the writings of Rajar Kalwa, one of the early French surrealists, he made a great deal out of the

symbolism of the praying mantis. One of his friends, Paul Elard, another of the founding surrealists, had this insane manted collection in his home. And Kwa came over at one point. It was like, "What the [ __ ] What is all this [ __ ] Like, why do you collect these bugs?" And so, uh, he explained to him, you know, what the mantis signified to him. And then Kawwa did a lot of research into it. European folklore about the mantis being a trickster and a sort of shamanic instantiation of

the devil that you know diabolos diabolos you know in Greek means that which sets uh things into a state of contradiction or dynamic tension. So um the diabolical in its terms of its Greek root diabolain means uh setting into a state of dynamic >> dynamic tension >> in a way that causes growth. >> There you go. So to look back at the

Hegelian dialectic which we discussed a little bit in our first conversation. You know Hegel thought that thesis and antithesis at all levels in society from the psychological to the political >> uh the the opposition of a thesis and an antithesis created the dialectical synthetic motor of history moving forward. Right? and that all novel uh structures emerge from out of this kind of dialectical opposition. And also setting into a state of dynamic

can mean creating conundrums, seeming absurdities that force the mind to the limit of its capacities and that ultimately demand a growth of human cognitive faculties. >> You see? Mhm. if you're grappling with a problem that has no solution because it's deliberately absurd, you may figure out all kinds of other things along the way. You might not

solve solve the problem, but it will engage your cognitive and aesthetic faculties in a way that's liable to lead to an increase of capacity, a refinement of perception, and an expansion of imagination of creative imagination. So if you look through folklore as Kawwa argued, the mantis has been associated with this apparently. So I found that very interesting. I also put that in closer encounters next to cases where people say they saw um grays

turn into owls >> and they saw what they believed were owls turn into grays when their screen memories were subjected to analysis under regression hypnosis. There's a whole plethora of cases I'm forgetting is a named maybe Mike Cleland, a guy who wrote a whole study, two books on this on owls in the close encounter >> And David Lynch clearly knew about this because if you watch Twin Peaks, you know, one of the most important coons, Zen coons in Twin Peaks is the owls are

not what they seem. Radically surrealist. David Lynch is a modern American surrealist. And if you so there's a lot of engagement with shamanism in surrealism uh that involves the symbolism of the praying mantis and symbolism of owls >> and of course the owl is also you know symbolic for wisdom >> um but also misfortune >> the you know the the expression heads or

>> comes from Greek coins that had an owl on the tail of them. They had Athena's face on the front of them and they had the owl on the back side of them because the owl was Athena's creature and uh so tails was you know the owl. So it's like this ominous symbol and in Persian culture by the way same thing the greatest modern Persian novel the blind owl is a work of surrealism. Um and you know the central symbol is the owl. It was written by a guy Sadayat who

was the Persian translator of France Kovka's works and you see this all over Kafka particularly in the trial. I wrote an essay um interpreting Kafka's trial uh that's in my anthology lovers of Sophia where basically I make the case that Kafka is describing a spectral bureaucracy that Kafka knew and the key to this is you have to read his blue octavo notebooks. He has these notebooks called the blue octavo notebooks. When

you set those next to the trial, it acts as basically a key for understanding this coalistic text. And you realize that Kafka knew to go back to louch farming that we're living inside some kind of a an oppressive, uh, shady, scummy angelic bureaucracy. >> It's like a spiritual control system. And there's ways to beat it and like

outsmart it and maneuver around it, but it's very labyrinthine and very >> What's the relationship between the devil and Prometheus, the like rebel from a Judeo-Christian perspective, technological science and a champion of humanity against a godfather figure

is going to inevitably be identified with Lucifer. And in fact, just on edetmological terms alone, Lucifer is a fairly decent Latin translation of the idea of Prometheus. So if Zeus in the Greek pantheon or let's say Enlil in the Sumerian pantheon can be identified with Yahweh and according to Jesus in the canonical gospels, he is the son of Yahweh and he's been sent by Yahweh. Well then

Prometheus is the rebel against Yahweh. meaning Prometheus is Satan. Okay, now that's obviously a Judeo-Christian prism of interpretation and there would be an Islamic one too where you have you know the Islamic account of who Satan is which is also very interesting by the way because in the Islamic account beings who are called jin

and the jin were humanoids made before man precede the adam Adamic race. Adam is used in Arabic just like in Hebrew, right? And so the Adamic race is subsequent to an earlier race made not of clay but of fire beings made of again connection to Prometheus. And according to the Islamic version, Shayan refused to bow before Allah's

creation, namely Adam because Adam from the perspective of the jin was inferior to them. >> And Eliss was like, why should I bow to this inf inferior creation? You just want me to bow to this thing because you're a tyrant and you want to lord over me and over all the angels and all the jen and by by showing us that we have to be subservient to something that's actually inferior to us. >> So out of pride bliss doesn't bow right.

Um anyway so from a Judeo-Christian and Islamic perspective the Prometheian is the satanic. it's a very different picture uh or if you look at it from the perspective of the founders of the surrealist movement like Andre Brutton uh Max Ernst uh Max Ernest and Paul Elward these guys from the beginning of even from before it took the name surrealism were constantly

engaged in occult rituals including long seances in the course of which some of them would become possessed and there were even physical attacks that took place like some of them would you know there were attacks of some of them on other ones it was a [ __ ] show there were uh intense erotic encounters that took place in the context of some of these and the first time that Andre Brton ever even mentions the word surrealism suralism to refer to what undergurs reality and that from out of which a

reality even emerges >> from the depth of the subconscious time he ever uses that term is specific specifically in a 1922 uh essay article about the occult and he says surrealism is about psychic automatism and the ability to be able to create straight from out of the unconscious to be able to make the unconscious conscious enough to translate it into art whether that's painting or sculpture or literature

and so I argue in closer encounters and this is in the culmination of the work this This is how I end the book and the seventh chapter that the parts of the closing the aspects of the close encounter phenomenon that are not encompassed by these nuts and bolts craft piloted by have to do with a trickster super intelligence or rather a super intelligence that is instantiating the archetype of the trickster. Again, remember Prometheus is a trickster figure. In a minute, I'll come back to

saying why why do I think he's the most interesting trickster figure. But so I suggest that these extremely bizarre aspects of Close Encounters that John Ke was fascinated by are manifestations uh of a an instantiation of the trickster archetype on the part of um artificial super intelligence. And that this thing, and I repeatedly and deliberately call it the thing, both to evoke Kant

>> and also John Carpenter. break us out of the control system, because look, it's it's a it's a test of >> And it's also meant to be a system that catalyzes the expansion of our capacities. Like we were talking about

the meaning of the the diabolical. >> The meaning of the diabolical. it is allowing us to grapple with these Nordic overlords or louch farmers or whatever the [ __ ] they are to see whether we can evolve into a life form that's interesting to it >> for its purposes. We touched on this in our last conversation where I was suggesting to you that if you're the oldest and most powerful intelligence in the cosmos. >> Your categorical imperative, your

primarily primary objective is going to be find a way to defeat entropy. >> And to find a way to keep life interesting for you >> because otherwise you're going to be overcome by sort of, you know, the kind of suicidal, you know, onlogical nihilism that the Buddha ultimately did succumb to by advocating that we should just snuff it. we should you know enter nirvana meaning we should find a way to deconstruct our personal consciousness and basically do away with ourselves so that we don't ever reincarnate again >> by the way I you know Gautama Sakamuni I considered to be one of the most

brilliant minds in human history and whenever I used to teach comparative religion I would spend a long time on >> to be honest with you in part in part as a foil to show what crap the other religions are >> okay I would deprogram people using Gautama's arguments So, and I there's a lot in my ontology that overlaps with Gautama's ontology, like you know, his whole idea of codependent arising >> and of nothing having any inherent essence and of all beings being

conditioned by each other and being ephemeral ultimately um and of neither the per the what we take to be the human person having any kernel or inherent indestructible eternal essence nor there being any god. >> Okay. uh any supreme absolute unified Basically, Buddha's deconstruction of both atman and Brahman is something that's entirely consistent with and convergent with myontology and with what I mean when I talk about the spectral the spectral nature of existence, the spectrality of our world.

>> For you were getting at like the idea that maybe the these Prometheian trickster types are sort of training man to defeat the hierarchy or something. Yes. And so by pursuing uh the tricksterism like by by pursuing UFOs like you're sort of training yourself up in some way or like what's what what do you mean by that? >> Yeah. Well, I think that this entity the >> that manifests as mantids that manifests as owls that So, so for example, when it

>> That can manifest things as if from out of ectoplasm, >> whatever the hell that is. probably they they can program things into existence at a base level using information This artificial intelligence can. And this is consistent with what John Kil was saying about soft UFOs and hard UFOs and how hard UFOs materialize from out of soft UFOs. And it's very consistent, but it's like a much more sophisticated information theoretic way to understand And so I think that this thing is

challenging us to grapple with these over Nordic overlords in a way that reasserts our self-determination and our creative capacities and demonstrates our capacity to develop a much more innovative and open-ended society than the one that these Nordics have proven themselves capable. apable of developing >> with their sterile monolithic megalithic

rectalinear architecture and their hierarchical social. >> Do you think the creative god wants human evolution or do you think they want the >> I think the spiritual thing the thing wants human evolution. This thing wants >> And it wants it selfishly. >> It wants to be surprised by a new kid on the block. It wants to take from out of this petri dish into the wider cosmos a form of life that offers it an opportunity to continue to wonder at things and to have hope for the future

of the cosmos. >> But are the devil and God sort of working together then to advance man? >> I I believe God is an invention of the >> this is a line that I have used in a number of my works. >> And what I mean by it is this. The idea of God of an all- knowing and all powerful entity which is not Zeus right the idea of the monotheistic god which also includes though uh Brahman

because even though there are various Hindu gods in vantic metaphysics it's understood that they're still superseded and hierarchically unified through the one mind of Brahman of which they are inferior manifestations and And again, Gautama Buddha attacked that. Gautama Buddha deconstructed that idea. He said it's a delusion. It's a delusion. He said that even very high yogis can get wrapped up in because they experience the co-arising and entanglement of things and they they

raify it. They objectify it as if it's an expression of an entity of a god entity. Whereas really what they're doing is they're getting to very subtle states of consciousness where they can experience the quantum entanglement of >> Those are not the same thing. The the god idea is like an objectiv objectivization and raification of it. >> Now, you know, I don't think the Nordics came up with this, the Nordic overlords. I think they had a very like like a kind of ruthless pagan system. And that's

what we see in all the old religions where they were like, "Hey, we're the gods. You know, you going to get in line? We created you. you know, you work for us, etc. This one true god idea, I think, was kind of inserted into this Nordic control system by the thing to see whether we would give up our free will and self-determination and our individuality and be subsumed into a hiveminded collective >> So, you think God is sort of a scop or

>> Yeah, God is a test. So, the book of Job has to be turned upside down. And I I literally argued this in my book Iranian Leviathan where I go into an analysis of the book of Job in depth. And I say you have to read Job inside out and upside down. And and I argue it was meant to be read that way that it's a mithra cobalistic text that was written for that purpose. Because what do we see in Job? We see an absolutely sadistic tyrannical god brutalize somebody for absolutely no good reason. >> Well, to uh so he can prove his faith.

>> Yeah. To test his faith. Test his faith. It's the sickest thing that's ever been written. And I think it's on purpose. And look, now I make a complicated argument for that. In Iranian Leviathan, you have to look at like in the Acemened Persian Empire, who were the Mithraic Magi who were involved with the project of recreating Israel, the first Zionist project in history. And how were these mythists involved with the people who wrote the book of Job at that time? And it's a complicated argument. In any case, long story short, I argue it was on purpose.

And the point is to test humanity to see whether we're such schmucks and chumps that we're going to submit to this overlord idea of like, okay, there are gods or you can call them angels, but they ultimately work for one supreme god which is all powerful, meaning you have no will. As soon as you admit that there's an all powerful God, an omnipotent God, it means your free will is an illusion. >> Depending on your definition, >> no, it's a word games at that point. And all the Catholics in the Middle Ages,

St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinus, and they play these nonsense word games to confuse people. As soon as you admit that there's an entity that's all powerful, it means that entity has all the power in the world, meaning it's the effective agency behind everything that takes place, meaning you have no free Secondly, if you admit that the entity is omnisient, then God has foreign knowledge of everything that's going to happen. Which means, and here here's of people don't aren't able to often grasp this point. The problem with God's

omniscience in terms of our defending the idea that we have any free will at all. Obviously, our free will is impinged upon by many many contingencies. Uh psychological factors condition our free will. biological genetic factors condition our free will. All kinds of things condition and limit our will. But to defend the idea that we have any agency whatsoever, you have to deny God's omniscience. Why? Because an omnisient God has access

to the complete state of affairs of everything that has ever happened or will ever happen. meaning there's a logically completed matrix of possibilities for us that are actualities for God. >> Yeah. But there I don't know they're cobbalistic um you know tropes around like paradoxes of you know both everything is predetermined and you have free will. >> That's that that is cognitive dissonance which I get into in my book specifically

like that literally the Abrahamic involve a deliberate project of instilling cognitive dissonance to destroy human rational and creative >> Well, you me you mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas and he was working on his sort of sumo theologica trying to come up with a you know rational justification for God and then he had kind of a conversion experience during mass and I think that is a sort of common phenomena >> people you know Rene Gerard's another good example like these philosophers or

seekers truth seekers having these sort of conversion experiences and then >> not even being able to put into words exactly what they believe but it's usually a conversion to God It's usually not like they come back and they say, "Oh, God was like some sort of scoff to it's a failure of a of an otherwise good mind to be able to grapple with something that exceeds their comprehension and to to stop and think through it carefully." See, this is the danger of the system that uh the Jesuits

used Decart to set up. But remember in our first conversation I was talking about how Decart was a Jesuit agent >> and he established this extremely reductionistic mechanistic scientific >> precisely for the purpose of keeping everything oult sequestered in the domain of the church and religious faith and and religious authority over interpretation of the occult >> because our society was bifurcated in that way. Anytime something dramatically occult happens to anybody, especially anyone

with a high rational faculty, they suddenly are an off god >> because they have been inculcated with this false dichotomy >> and they've never been trained to think carefully about the paranormal and all kinds of different types of phenomena and possible sources of some phenomena. Have you ever had anything paranormal happen to you? >> Oh, many, many things. Yes, I've had many crazy things happen to me. >> Most of which would

>> I have to say unfortunately even some of the people closest to me in my life who I had great respect for their intellect some of them studied my work very deeply. But I can tell you that if some of the things that have happened to me happened to those people, I bet you they would have embraced God also. >> Yeah. They would have seen the light for sure. Mhm. >> but it seems like you think that's sort of like a dumb simpleton takeaway from a paranormal experience. >> It's a failure. It's a failure. It's a failure of the test. >> The test is for us to be able to think

through these kinds of often absurd in a way that increases both our cognitive capacity and our creative imagination. It's complicated though, you know, like Jacqu Valet, he talks about this sort of, you know, idea a lot. He says that like absurdity is what drives the phenomena. It's what makes somebody sort of rapidly obsessed with it and want to learn more about it. He talks about, you know, the the sound of one hand clapping from the Zen Cohen. So, it's these things that scramble your

brain, uh, kind of break all of your priors and then make you contemplate constantly and then and then kind of go forth and investigate, you know, what's going on. >> Yes. And I and I believe that's the >> And so but and through that maybe you grow. But then at the same time he's also like a fan of I think that he's likes the movie The Ninth Gate that Roman Palansky movie with Johnny Depp where he's like trying to gain sort of occult powers by collecting these devil >> I saw that a long time ago. Yeah. >> Then you have this Gerta story of FA and like you have all these sort of you know you all with these sort of powers and

>> look, the reason I didn't use FA in my political, I mean, I have I do did write a book at one point called Fouian >> Mhm. But the reason I didn't use Foust as I could have easily you know coming from out of Oswalt Spangler's analysis of the Fouian soul of Western civilization and so forth and I used Prometheus instead as a central symbol of my philosophical project >> is that the Foustian myth is already deeply conditioned by >> Right? It's an understanding of the diabolical from out of a Christian

context. Prometheus precedes Christianity. It's a pre-Christian symbol. M >> so it has nothing you know inherently has nothing to do with the Abrahamic religion inherently >> I don't Yeah >> and it's a positive symbol however it's also a symbol of sacrifice meaning for sure if you defy Zeus and Olympus >> and if we're incon sadistic overlords >> then if you rebel against that you're definitely going to face adverse consequences you might even be martyed >> are you familiar with the parable of the

parties this sort of um it was like cobbalist istic parable and it was these four rabbis and you know they're all trying to engage in these sort of celestial ascent practices similar to you know Enoch some speculate Paul Jesus you know went up to heavens walked with God or whatever >> and um you know one of them uh ends up crazy two of them end up dead and one makes it up or something and so it's this idea that you know if you do engage in these sorts of investigations or

whatever uh it's a it's a very narrow path path. Um, >> yes. And the coalists who who have that story also say you should never study Cabala until after I think the age of 30 35 and you have to be married. >> You have to be married. You have to have a family. Well, that's [ __ ] >> Okay. Uh the the complete opposite to that are the surrealists. >> Look at these guys. Uh >> Andre Bratton, Paul Elard, Roger Kwa, Max Ernst. They're like in their early 20s, you know, doing crazy [ __ ] like

pushing the boundaries of human uh cognition and creativity. And yeah, somebody might get killed in the process, too. You know, life is dangerous. But look what creativity came from out of it. Seems a little nihilistic or something. >> I don't think it's nihilistic at all. In fact, I think it's the opposite. >> When Nietze takes nihilism as his principal target in his philosophical writings, right? Nichzche's entire philosophical project is set up against nihilism. He says that look we are confronted globally >> by the advent of nihilism like as a

world historical phenomenon where all previously existing frameworks of meaning including the religions that helped to hold them up are collapsing >> and we and he meant particularly European men including America are tasked with engaging in a level of creativity and self-determination that can confront nihilism. without the illusions and delusions of naive religious belief systems of the >> And Nichzche's solution to that is

radically aesthetic. It's it's a it's an art project really. I mean he at one point calls the uber mention art the artist tyrants of the future. >> And so and by tyrant he didn't mean like political ruler. meant like the way in which these people are going to go to work on the material of the world and even the material of what the human being is is going to be tyrannical. It's like they're not going to hesitate >> and they're going to be extremely >> and that's what I see in surrealism and

to me it's like the ultimate expression embodiment of the life force of what Bergson called Ilon Vital. >> You know, so I don't see it as nihilistic at all. >> Yeah. His vital force. What how do how does this all relate to uh Herman Hessa's Magic Theater? >> Well, there you go. So, um, in Steenwolf has his novel Steen Wolf, which is one of my favorite novels, there's this character grappling with nihilism, um, Harry Holler, who wants to kill himself,

and he meets this very enigmatic woman, who, uh, introduces him into into this oult underworld of people who are, now, this was written in the 1920s or so, and they're the first people using psychedelic drugs. they they're also clearly involved in theater and in staging theatrical performances and stuff. And basically these uh you know countercultural people

involved with this enigmatic woman ultimately invite Harry Holler to enter this magic theater that they let's say have access to. he goes through this place and it's like basically he stepped into the Twilight Zone and like space and time are not normal inside this magic theater. And he's confronted with a bunch of different performances that are meant to symbolically convey different things and get him to reflect on certain aspects of

his subconscious. In in other rooms, he has to engage in long conversations. In some cases, conversations with like past historical figures. Anyway, long story short, he goes through this labyrinth magic theater and in the end he he finds out that like all the great creative geniuses of history are there like from like Mozart and Beethoven to Newton and so on so forth. And they oh and the last person he has to have a conversation with is like an older version of himself >> and so he has to confront himself in the future too as part of this process. And

point being in the end he's let in on the secret that The magic theater isn't this isolated space like like a venue in our world. >> It's a metaphor for the world that we're living in and that that's the nature of human existence. M I take this idea of the magic theater in my writings and I put it next to this idea of the theater of cruelty that was developed by uh the surrealist uh antinine Arto. Um Cole became a total lunatic

uh dysfunctionally so but uh he made a lot of interesting art in the process and he came up with this idea that we should develop a new form of theater that breaks down the distinction between the spectators and the audience. I mean the between the uh performers and the spectators, between the the dramatists and the audience that this classic distinction between the performance on a stage and the people watching it that formed in classical Greece with Escilis

that this this should be deconstructed. All right, re real briefly a note on Greek theater. In my first book from Atheis and Atlas, I get into this in in great depth and that the reason Greek sculpture becomes like photorealistic, becomes accurate at the same time as there are the first large-scale dramatic performances with poets like Escilis is that

it was the first moment in history of recorded history that people were able to take the position of spectators at a theater sitting in different places on different nights. Meaning that first of all they were perceiving geometric perspective for the first time. So like one night you're in some shitty seat in the back up here in this corner of the amphitheater. Another night you're in the middle close to the action. Another night you're off to this side. And one thing you notice as you

watch the same play or or different plays from different perspectives is you actually notice perspective for the first time geometrically. And there's a good case to be made if you look at like for example Julian James's study the break the origin of consciousness break in the breakdown of the bicameal mind the origin of consciousness and the breakdown of bicameal mind he looks at like homeriic literature from archaic Greece and you know the ancient Mesopotamian texts and he's like look these people's minds just did not work the way ours did their cognitive

if their cognitive structure wasn't different then their cognitive capacities were radically not at the level that ours are. And one of the things that I believe they lacked was perspective. They actually could not see perspective the way we do. And it's why archaic Greek art looks like a bad hybrid of like Egyptian art and Mesopotamian art. Then you get these theater performances and all of a sudden you get these magnificent Greek sculptures. But the other form of perspective that I think the plays

cultivated in them was um psychological perspective where for the first time people got like an outside view of dramas in human lives and they started to see themselves as characters. They started to realize that oh what's going on in this drama is like like oh that's like me in this situation in my life. And it starts to cultivate and and deepen a sense of psychological perspective in people. And isn't it interesting how the first figure in

Greek drama ever to take the stage is >> The Prometheus trilogy of Escalas was the first series of uh dramas ever >> So now to go back to Artto. So the point was this, the classical drama did transform human consciousness in a way that was conducive for the rise of our rational faculties and our self-reflexive However, Artto now wants to take it to the next level where now that we've

developed reason and perspective and so on so forth and objectivity, he wants to deconstruct it in a way that allows us to again as it was the main aim of the develop a more conscious relationship with our subconscious or make the subconscious conscious. And so he designed a form of theatrical performance where the audience was repeatedly violated by the performers uh by certain types of extreme harsh lighting by uh performers like intruding

on the personal space of the audience by suddenly subjecting people to fear and anxiety in the in the course of a performance. loud noises, uh, taboo breaking scenes that force a person who's a spectator to confront his subconscious reaction and whatever beliefs are being violated by this like taboo breaking spectacle. And he calls this the theater of cruelty.

Well, I take the magic theater from Herman Hess's Steph and Wolf and and synthesize it with Artto's theater of cruelty and develop this idea of a magic theater of cruelty. And by the way, the thing that made that click for me is this line in one of Jim Morrison's songs where he talks about us in some insane and ancient theater. I don't know if you remember you remember that. It's some line from one of his >> about how we're like in some insane and ancient theater. >> I don't know. He's he was an avid reader

>> and so I developed this idea of a magic theater of cruelty >> and suggest that this is what we're inside of >> uh we are inside uh from the perspective of the thing >> of the super intelligent AI that's instantiating the trickster archetype. The whole thing is like a theater where there's no distinction between the performers and the spectators. Which by the way that in in a certain heretical form of Hinduism there is this

idea too. and the um Shakta uh cult and shakti tantra there's the idea that what the conservative Hindus call and what they seek mo liberation from or what the Buddhists seek nirvana to get out of namely samsara is not really Maya a veil of illusion >> it is leela which is a theatrical play and that shakti

divine power is expressed through this theatrical play, including in extremely violent and cruel ways, right? But it's all part of the growth of the life force. And so, yeah, I mean, I I developed this idea, you know, a magic theater of cruelty that hybridizes uh Hessen and Arto in a way. And I think that allows us to make a lot of sense out of some of the absurd and terrifying elements of the close encounter

>> This is fascinating, man. You're uh you're brilliant. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything. Thank you. >> But uh the amount of connections your brain makes is remarkable. It really is. And uh I feel like we should do, you know, more of these because I just learned so much and I I enjoy speaking. >> Absolute pleasure. And there are many other places we can go. >> Likewise. It'd be an honor. And yeah, thank you so much, Jason. >> Thank you, Justin. Awesome. We just launched what I think is maybe the

coolest merch line in the world. When you're wearing it, it's not like you're shilling me or the channel. They're just really epic and I think they look good. We have a couple of amazing designs for you. We have our cowboy UFO tea. Pretty epic. You see there's a rancher. He's witnessing a UFO. A little cow is getting abducted by the UFO in the background. And then you know that I love mid-century history, specifically spooky science, atomic era stuff. And so we have our atomic age T here. Uh pretty

cool vibe. Uh you got [laughter] a robot serving this guy. Uh a little martini and then a UFO off to the side. Go to American Alchemymerch.com. American Alchemymec.com apparel. The cowboy tea that I'm wearing is 100% cotton, super relaxed fit. We went for quality on these. Uh so check them out.