He's Seen More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive (Ft. Jacques Vallee)

high to generate effects then it really is a zoo of options and possibilities but occasionally you meet long-time researchers who are clearly on their own genuine quest for meaning in life and their inquiry into UFOs is just one part of that a harbinger of the next Paradigm a fascinating scientific anomaly with profound sociological implications I would be ashamed of Being Human if I didn't try to find out why the minimum acknowledge that it was there Jacques

valet is the ultimate archetype of this he is a serious researcher with the computer science physics and astronomy background he even helped build the earliest version of the internet a project called arpanet with legendary computer scientist Doug inglebar and for the purposes of this episode he has probably talked to more UFO Witnesses and seen more exotic material than any living person in fact it's now almost conventional knowledge that if you're an average citizen who encounters a UFO crash mail the materials to Jacques

it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate but perhaps what I find most interesting about Jacques is that he's just as mystical as he is hard-headed and scientific he's as interested in esotericism parapsychology and Philip K dick as he is nuts and bolts analysis of the material science and physics involved in UFOs we really don't have a good idea of what reality when Steven Spielberg wanted to depict

an eccentric yet brilliant scientist studying UFOs for his famous movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind he decided to base the character played by Francois truffaut off of Jacques I've been privileged enough to have a few private conversations with Jacques prior to this interview he often doesn't answer my questions directly and almost seems to speak in code in Parables leaving me with breadcrumbs in the form of books and anecdotes but not explicating his point but in this interview I pressed him to give us

explicit details spoiler alert he drops some serious new knowledge on us project rule book was the best I could do at the time because I felt they had a real project going on that was secret okay is that true in the Air Force did oh I didn't know that we also talk about his new book Trinity the best kept secret it describes a UFO crash in 1945 next to the Trinity test site in New Mexico just 20 days after the first ever atomic bomb

test on United States soil occurred there so without further Ado hit subscribe sit back and enjoy this long-awaited interview with the French Godfather of UFOs my friend in this week's American Alchemist the legendary Jacques valet different parts of the rain have different activities but you know that don't you remember maybe you should interview me

and then we can kind of expand out from there it's a fascinating topic that I think kind of updates our modern understanding of ufology because we think about Roswell as a sort of basic starting point and in fact the Trinity test site in New Mexico there's a test on July of 1945 and then 20 days later in San Antonio uh you see this this Ty is a fascinating story just 20 days after the first atomic test on U.S soil

and two days after the Japanese concession a metallic avocado shaped object dropped from the sky in San Antonio New Mexico right next to the test site it is damaged it has lost one panel but it gets its Integrity two kids the sons of local cattle ranchers Remy Baca and Jose Padilla ages 7-9 respectively saw the craft in the distance through that opening of one panel that's missing they see three creatures they were human-like they had

Redux the Trinity story has unique profound implications on ufology for three major reasons number one it occurred before the word Flying Saucer was in our public lexicon it's not a flying saucer the term Flying Saucer doesn't exist it's going to be invented two years later by Kenneth Donald this shows that the UFO story even in the American context likely precedes Roswell which also happened in 1947 two years after Trinity and that flying saucers

clearances in the U.S federal government had even heard of the case in fact valet was introduced to it by an Italian UFO researcher named Paola Harris who later became his co-author on the book and she had already interviewed and had tapes of interviews with both of the kids who by then were old men in Jacques mind this complete obliviousness on the part of the federal government shows that the group that holds the secrets to the UFO story is a small insular one with their

own separate set of clearances one big question that Paola and I have had is would alpenheimer have been told the Manhattan Project would have custody of it and then it would go into the atomic energy commission and then it would go into the department of energy which has its own line of clearances and that's why I can't find among the people I know who have clearances Above Top Secret they've never heard of this yeah they've never heard of this because you can be

in the Pentagon yeah with the top secret clearance but if you if you're not briefed on the atomic secrets you wouldn't get the clearances that you needed to do to open up that thing in fact Chris Mellon the former deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence in the Clinton and George W bush administrations claims he almost met with someone from the UFO program I was supposed to meet a fellow for example who supposedly it was in one of these

this alleged meeting the Admiral expresses complete exasperation as he uncovers and meets with a black budget private Aerospace Corporation attempting to reverse engineer crashed UFOs without any official government oversight Wilson says that The Gatekeepers of this program are convinced that the material in their possession are not of this Earth but that the process of doing anything productive with the material has been slow and cumbersome with little to no success since Roswell they also

describe a system of intense so no one in the program besides those at the top have the full picture no one has the whole puzzle or an image of the whole puzzle but they have pieces they have corners of the puzzle the whole thing was set up to be that way on purpose and number three Trinity is a perfect example of the inherently absurd nature of UFOs it is a bizarre yet cinematic story that is so hard to figure out but has had a profound impact

on the witnesses involved it's absurd I mean think of the Zen coin you know or the sound of one hand clapping well where is the other head you know so you know it stops your brain the behavior in Close Encounters is is not uh take me to your leader it's not this is what you guys should do from now on because that's not going to work I want to actually get the book because I I highlighted a couple of passages and

I want you to see you're the kind of reader I like yeah you know that's what an author likes to see you put you put it on on page five you kind of I mean this is I've always found this about you it's like you uh you're extremely detailed in your writing and then you'll like put one line in italics which is like you you have to think about it a lot so so like here you go and two days after the emperor surrendered just one month after the awesome Atomic test by Robert Oppenheimer Enrico Fermi and their Star

team of physicists a weird object came out of nowhere circled in the sky over the Mesquite infested Hills as if to underline the enormity of what had taken place or to acknowledge it or even in my own speculation to open up a parallel historical and strategic path one that superseded even The Taming of the atomic so what do you mean by that you know I mean how many years has it been and we haven't used the atombo right but never the Russians haven't

used it no you know there were lots of occasions where I mean we can have terminated the Korean war with one one plane sure right Cuban Missile Crisis still begs the question if you're an alien civilization or an Angelic civilization or something uh Celestial civilization uh and you want to open up a parallel timeline why would you do it in such a kind of um tongue-in-cheek sort of way like a like

you know you drop a three-ton avocado that's sort of a strange way to open up a parallel timeline that goes into a discussion on control systems and you know that's in in Psychology but uh Skinner yeah if you want to teach something to somebody you shouldn't reward every instance where that kid or that person does something right intermittently not to change your

behavior of somebody who drinks too much you want to change the behavior of it of of a kid and get him to learn something that's hard to learn you should not reward every time because if you if you do it every time you get fast learning but then they honor people go back to the way they were before Jacques ballet talks about like how do you create a real cult following it's not by showing yourself consistently it's like if you

if you have every time you hit a lever you know some treat comes out for uh for a dog or whatever they're gonna hit the lever less than if it comes out randomly this idea of intermittent reinforcement if they're like sort of sporadic so do you think our our Evolution as a species is being co-directed by through the intermittent reinforcement by a superior species that maybe uses control mechanisms like religion where you sort of show up to

some profit as a specific sort of shape or form and then they create a noble mythology and then everybody else sort of follows them and you you don't do it by landing on the White House loan because people will be amazed for a couple of days and then they'll say you know that was a trick that was Hollywood that was uh this guy wanted to stay in power so he ripped it up which was is what we see now you know in politics every day you know I mean how do you know something is true you don't anymore

you don't have a reference anywhere I still want to get back to so what would if there's a trickle-down effect of seeing this avocado that's somehow deterrent in terms of using a nuclear weapon for human civilization I don't quite see what that would be look you know Jose went inside yeah on the last day the floor was flat that means there's about this much underneath okay the thing is oval it's another cattle

and so the quilt engine if you think of an engine the engine is in there somewhere you know even if a propulsion system is somewhere else beaming energy into it you still have to lift that you know three four ton got it Gadget into the air so it was it was a show of force almost but a light show for it was like we're we're much more powerful because we have proportion that is stepwise better you know the communication would

demonic apocalyptic Force staff of president Eisenhower's National Security Council for four years later becoming chief of the pentagon's foreign technology desk in Army research and development so he was definitely in high government circles as corroborated by many colleagues but in his book The Day After Roswell Corso claims a covert government group was assembled under the leadership of Admiral Roscoe

hilenquitter the first director of the CIA to collect all information on off-planet technology and retrieve all of the debris from the Roswell crash Corso even claims that he was part of the cleanup crew at Roswell he goes on to say in the book that the reverse engineering of the Roswell parts indirectly led to the development of fiber optics lasers integrated circuits and even Kevlar I worked at the time we had the first computer this was way back

with the first computer in France from IBM them where the circuits were called and when when something went wrong the repair guy came in with a test day he would test the whole computer identify the car that was wrong we pull it out put it in the trash can put on another one a new one in so we had a trash can that was full of these wonderful little complete cards with complete circuits so I took one of those and I I was having

lunch with my name Michelle and I told him you are my my priest okay I respect you very highly and I I have found something in my field that I I cannot recognize uh can you tell me what I should do with it and he says well show it to me my son and I I showed him the and he looked at it and he said my son burn it

it is from the Devil and you know the analogy is you see a UFO in your field what do you do with it maybe you know at at some level we should just bear it you know because something like that has never happened before yep after I saw when I was 15 I saw that

object outside the room over the the yard you if you want to go there was I would be ashamed of Being Human with the equipment that I'm given you know with the brain I'm given good or bad if if I didn't try to find out to respond to it in some way or at the minimum acknowledge that it was there

okay I'm not going to lie about it I'm not going I don't know what it was but I'm not going to pretend that it wasn't there and I think that's the way I you know I'm still going Jose a woman had seen something over her house it was a big disc and I say how big was it and she says well it was about the same size as her house it was you know just like that then I say well

when you went inside you said uh you know there was this being and the being took you on a staircase I say where did the staircase go well the staircase went up the side of this big round room I say how would you compare it as well like like a movie house you know like a M5 theater I said that's bigger than your why is the inside bigger than the like if it exists outside of 4D you know

time space or whatever say say this is you know you have a 2d universe and this is a 3D object if it intersects you're just going to see a sliver of it so you'll just be a disc Edwin Abbott wrote about a 3D Society interacting with a 2d plane in his late 19th century classic flatland on Earth we have the ability to move above and below sea level East West and north south so we have three degrees of motion or axes on which we can move say you're

a fly in a box you can move up and down forwards and backwards and right and left but say that box is part of a larger hypercube and the Box part is the only part of the hypercube intersecting with our 3D plane the hypercube would obviously be much bigger on the inside than what's represented on the outside intersecting with our visible reality instead of describing this phenomena myself to you this clip from the great Carl Sagan says it all fifth Cube cast

that shadow we recognize as two squares with their vertices connected now let's take this three-dimensional Cube and project it carry it through a fourth physical dimension in that case we would generate a four-dimensional hypercube which is also called a tesseract I cannot show you a tesseract because I and you are trapped in three dimensions but what I can show you is the shadow in

three dimensions of a four-dimensional hypercube or Tesseract this is it and you can see it's two nested cubes all the vertices connected by lines and now the real Tesseract in four dimensions would have all the lines of equal length and all the angles right angles that's not what we see here but that's the penalty of projection so you see while we cannot imagine the

cases and denies it in other cases when many when maybe we're actually swimming in these things and we just don't sort of perceive them in our normal reality that's something that high neck was Dr heineck was worried about he was very bothered by people who would see so you'd see a UFO you reported okay you see another one there are people who have been hit by lightning twice now people who win the

lottery twice you know all three times but then there are people who see them all the time like you see you know they they never know exactly when but boom there's a UFO in the sky we have people like that on the ranch you know and people have described people who were you know trained army officers went to the ranch a few days went home

and boom they there was some phenomenon following them and you know the entity may play with your life would can be can be there is it good or bad because you know I think of uh the hierophanes that Diana pasoka writes about where somebody can have a beautiful religious conversion experience that seems positive and then in other cases they feel like kind of demonic tricksters giving you false information so it uh

from the theory that UFOs are aliens from outer space and instead proposes that we are interacting with interdimensional beings that have been with Humanity for thousands of years I had always wanted to look at where did these stories fairy tales whatever that we tell to Little Children where did they come from all the books about different civilizations in the Pacific in Siberia and so on have footnotes they say by the way the shaman also told me

most famous abduction cases in the U.S occurred in 1961. in recalling their abduction through a hypnotic regression they said that the aliens they saw had eyes around the rim of their heads this was exactly how aliens were depicted in the hit sci-fi CBS show Outer Limits which premiered on national TV 11 days before their Abduction the easy explanation here may be that Betty and Barney Hill were brainwashed but perhaps they just encountered something so hard

to comprehend that in their recollection of it they just attached the closest available low-level meme they could to in this case it was the space aliens from outer limits but maybe in biblical times it would have been Angels and Demons this brings us to an even tripier Quest question why are we now seeing space aliens is this just the noble mythology of our time is our UFO experience being mediated does media play a profound role in our interpretation of these incomprehensible

mystical experiences we know those stories have always been there the the patterns when you look at the patterns you strip the interpretation just look at the physical pattern it's identical it's not you know heat searching missiles it's not all of that it's not the Nimitz it's a lot we have good instruments on the f-18s and then we have an entire you know ship with the most modern Radars which are by

the way still classified so we can give you the data from those Radars you know and that's you know I understand that okay but let's not extrapolate too much okay but this is all about phenomena that can be detected with the instruments we have today which are very good you know I know you have sort of an information Theory based model of the universe and so if you think about computer science which I know is one of your backgrounds you have kind of a client side and a server side and Carl

Jung writes about the UFO as kind of the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness and if you think about a lot of these hierophanes they involve sort of psychic phenomena and so what if we're sort of these compressed fractals of this kind of back-end server and it's a two-way communication where you might be a particularly active biosensor because your electromagnetic field of your body is to a certain level or something and then uh and so you call certain information or or uh really it would be

fast certain things but are you ready people may not resonate with that that for sure or and then on the flip side it's like Rupert shell Drakes you know morphic resonance where if a hundred people do a crossword puzzle and you do a crossword puzzle tomorrow you're a little more likely to do it accurately where you're pushing information to the server as well yes and if you do something new then you make it easier

for someone else to do something you're in Venture Capital you know why we don't sign no disclosure agreements because uh you know the invention happens you know this week they'll be five people will make the same invention yes but the real nature of the the total invention isn't the the thing that's on on your desk okay it's something else at some other level then until you found

that you don't have you don't really have an invention yeah okay I mean the transistor was invented in 1930s there's nothing they could do with it I mean they didn't even have vacuum tubes how they you know starting to have vacuum tubes but then you know in 1945 46 suddenly we had a use for it you know and uh but even that isn't recognized by the company well like the etymology of the word genius is attendant Spirit yes and

so it feels like in a lot of cases scientific innovation and technological innovation isn't this sort of mechanistic process it's almost like an idea is Zapped into the inventor's mind like Wolfgang powley figuring out the architecture of the hydrogen atom or The Rock's equation or all these things that get sort of downloaded a garage door opener there's nothing he

could do with it but if you gave him a garage door opener and a garage Leonardo would definitely know but random and the garage would open and he would say well I don't know how they do it but this thing's opened the garage now with UFOs we don't we don't have the garage you know we have bits and pieces of things well there's a there's a nuclear explosion a garage opener because you were talking about you know do you talk about Trinity and you talk about talk

about Roswell and similar things happen in the towns after the explosions you have people report Devils chasing them around and all sorts of Paranormal Activity so are you opening up a window to another plane you say that energy correlates with information yes so if you have this massive energy kind of uh output then all of a sudden maybe you can you can see me yes an impact that continues so the question is can we walk up the chain of events and can we get back to the

source in some way I recently read uh Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Echo and he talks about the Templars and how they have the secrets of time travel and there's an interesting Theory actually by a professor at Montana Tech named Mike Masters who says that aliens are just us from the future and they figured out time travel and they're sort of coming back in time do you ever think about that as a as a possibility do you think humans could ever Master time travel well the idea that they are from

the future is one idea there's an idea that's more radical is that this is all a simulation it doesn't matter when you think about it it doesn't matter if if we are in a simulation yeah you know one of the great founders of AI of course is uh Dr McCarthy at Stanford okay he had the AI lab on the on the hill when I came to Stanford in 68 and he told a

story his story was uh you know in in the future you're going on with your job you're selling something you fill out the form and people pay you and in the evening you you go home and you watch TV with your kids okay and then the next morning you get into your car you go to the office and you fill out some forms and people pay you and you go okay and then one day you're going to get a letter from the Bureau of simulation the

Bureau of simulation says Dear Sir we have observed your daily behavior for the last six months and you have not done anything that was not predicted by the model if in the next six months you don't do something that's not predicted by tomorrow you will be replaced by a simulated

tells his wife you know I need to do something you know trying to change my life completely so he drops out of his job takes whatever money he has moves to the Himalayas starts climbing mountains meditates or does all the things you're supposed to do you know and and six months later he goes home a week goes by and he feels really good goes back to his job and there's a lot of it all right from the Bureau of simulation that says Dear Sir in the

last six months you still haven't done anything that wasn't predicted by the simulation model and you have been replaced so he's still there doing his job waking up in the morning driving his car and so on but he doesn't exist anymore yeah it's NPC he's in simulated no yeah piece of software that does all that so and UFOs you know the way they behave

in an absurd way I mean why would you want to have 11 f-18s chasing you all over the Pacific uh when you know you can evade the radar anytime yeah it's absurd it's a very interesting type of linguistic play interplay with the consciousness of the viewer of you you go to your job at night for a forest and you you suddenly see a disc

and you see somebody there and he asks you the time and you give it the time and he says you're wrong it's 2 30. well you know what time it is he's wrong yeah why is he wrong you know why would he say something like right then he says am I in Italy or Germany witness says you're in alzace you know in France and then the the guy goes back in inside his finger thing takes off okay what does it tell you well at the

first level maybe he was still dreaming you know that's a logical thing you know he made it up but you have to go up a level you know you go up a level it says you're wrong about time you're wrong about space right okay you don't know where you are you don't know what time it is in fact you don't know what time is yeah okay now when I talk to a physicist like Eric Davis that's what he tells me he says you know those Dimensions like space and time they're arbitrary yeah you know

there's something deeper that creates the illusion of space and time in humans and you think reality is sort of like an hourglass right so you have a constricted present and then maybe probable Futures and probable pasts or something but they're they're various in um I think a physicist like Eric would tell you we really don't have a good idea of what reality is uh it's not even obvious that we can

stop it long enough to look at it do you think the future can cause the past in some ways well the reality is really quantum foam for physicists today it's not tied to any particular space of time it has its own internal properties and then when we are designed in such a way that when we experience it you know I think of the table as solid when I think of the air

as not solid okay because I I can do this and with the table I you know it hurts me if I push on it so but that's just me you know physicists looking at looking at it would say you know that's your delusion like you know that's I I can show you what yeah there's an electron cloud or whatever you're telling against each other so is there a way to you know a lot of ancient Traditions have this concept of an

illusion a great illusion like Maya and that would be the Hindi version and um Plato's Cave glaucom talks about a form of meditation or a protocol to sort of See Beyond the Veil he also implies knowledge is sort of like an amino dialogue he says all knowledge is recollection I think Socrates says that and um I know you're a fan of Philip K dick and you uh you recommended that I read vallus one time and I think it's horse lover fat is sort of uh Philippine

Dick's Alter Ego that he sort of writes into the the book and he also talks about the birthing processes it's sort of anamnesis and you know Amnesia you forget your former self and you're propelled forward in life by some Cosmic wound to find the true primordial self or something is that something you would agree with or I think that's just straight you know a a process of of trying to

steal your your brain uh or read things that bring you to that uh and I'm I'm not you know it could be in a religious context but it doesn't have to be in a religious context I mean there is one level where you know the the entire world is I know it's mystical Jacques seems to have a long-standing interest in esotericism and specifically

Rosicrucianism in the 70s Jacques named both his independent group of UFO researchers and his seminal book about their learnings the invisible College a reference to Robert Boyle's 17th century group of heretical natural philosophers that eventually became the Royal Society and was heavily influenced by rosicrucian ideas but I think in his mind UFO research has the potential to heal a long divide created by the enlightenment I'm talking about the Schism between science or inquiry into

the natural world and the spirit inquiry into the metaphysical if UFOs and aliens are real Biblical literalism becomes acceptable past religious conversions might have just been alien abductions the wheels of Ezekiel in the Old Testament could have just been UFOs and the events of the Bible might still be going on today all of a sudden inquiry into a repeated scientific observation in the form of UFOs turns into a metaphysical quest in search for larger meaning not to mention the vast

implications here for the teleology and fate of mankind do you think that UFOs will become a modern religion because I think about the science and the spirit have been bifurcated since the Enlightenment and you named your group The Invisible College in the 70s studying you know UFOs and sort of uh I know you're interested in Rosicrucianism do you think we could re-merge the science and the spirit in the form of ufo-based

where it's both Science and Technology you know I I wrote one of the books I wrote messages of deception and and other books where I went around for a while looking at little UFO religions you have the science approach where you try to find equations that account for the way for what we you can observe but there is another level which is you know when you

when you go out at night in the desert and you see the Galaxy you know spread in front of you you don't think of equations I mean that's not what you what you think of you think of you know who am I I mean what am I doing here and the reaction can be one of of Terror which is why people usually don't want to look at the night sky or one of of just wonder and you know fusion with the universe which is what

many of the astronauts have described on that note I really appreciate your time we want we could talk all day but I really appreciate it Jack thanks a lot man thanks for the conversation that was fun it was a lot of fun yeah