"Aliens Are Accelerating Human Evolution!" (Ft. Chris Ramsay)

up a bit, dropping it over here, and doing the same with human life. You could just like create like a little black hole around your craft, and you could go through the whole evolution of our entire known universe [music] in an afternoon. It's like hitting the X button when you're playing a video game to like skip past all the cut scenes. It's kind of what they're doing. And so this all feels like [music] this zoo, but not in a way that's like a zoo, but like in a way that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe. The vector along which you are making

progress is like what do they want? What's the culture on the other side of the [music] non-human intelligence? How do they think of us? They just don't care about us. It seems like an AI security system. They're kind of here until something else gets here. Some of us may by chance through accident get to meet the [music] lowest form of their kind of this robotic whatever and we're oh my it's God. I'm here with at this point my very good

friend Chris Ramsay who just is one of the most amazing humans I know generally. I think you know your former career speaks for itself. you're a world-class magician and I think you you brought your unique approach to that in that you uh debunk at times or show uh how magic is done to to the average person but then I think there's also something kind of very magical about you and you uh you allow for you know the illusion to persist at times and uh and now you've started probably my favorite

new uh UFO related channel. It has such an interesting angle because I think you are exploring themes around actually connecting with non-human intelligence or exploring what they think and how they think about the world which is uh you know no pun intended alien I think for a lot of people in this topic who are just used to kind of nuts and bolts crafts or stories around sightings um and so it's so it's so refreshing and the the world and universe that you build in each show uh is just next level

the thoughtfulness that you put into the set and the script and the questions uh is is second to none. So, appreciate you being here, man. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying those kind words. I really appreciate it and it means a lot coming from you, you know, being someone in the space. I think you're, you know, obviously the ambassador to this topic on the the platform and so means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much. Well, I'm I don't know. I don't think of myself as an ambassador, but [laughter] that's and I think that's what makes you a good ambassador. Okay. [gasps] So, I I I want to talk

about your transition from magic to UFOs because I I think magic gives you such an interesting lens. We were talking last night, you you were talking about kind of uh techniques and hypnotism. That you're aware of and um I'm sure that gives you an overlay or a lens through which you view the UFO thing where there's a lot of misdirection. There's a lot of, you know, weird ulterior motives and narratives and stuff. Do you think you have a better eye for those because of your magic background? You know, on American

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of devices, too, which is great for all your gadgets. Try it today at awareness of them. Doesn't make me immune to them. Um, but the awareness does provide me with a little bit more of a heads up when you know when something's happening. I think it's a six sense. Um, naturally as a magician, you're kind of the interesting thing is that a lot of people like like yourself who are really interested in how things work and methodology. That's what draws

a lot of people to becoming a magician because we're interested in methods and how things work and sort of reverse engineering uh a moment and how do we create this moment? How is that created? Like if you show a magic trick to someone, there's a few different reactions that someone will have uh and depending on their background history, you know, if you obviously do a magic trick to someone uh you know, abroad or in a third world country, it might be a different reaction than if I showed someone, you know, in uh in Vegas a magic trick, right? So, we all have our

own sort of realities that we deal with when we see magic. But some people will get frustrated because all they care about is how it works, right? they're just it doesn't sit well with them. And although I loved the fiction of it all, part of me was just like, wait a second, I need to know how this works. And so I I see a lot of that in you. I see a lot of that in people who do like this investigative uh journalism in that they're just not satisfied until they understand how it works. And so that's

that's just a big part of magic is um when you start observing relationships or moments or even technology, you're constantly in your brain immediately going to okay, well how does that function? How does that, you know, play? Because some people will just be enamored by the actual moment. Other people will be like enamored on the outside, but on the inside the cogs are just spinning and worrying and they're like, "Well, hold on. How does this actually,

you know, how's this possible?" And then as a magician, you're able to accumulate just a wealth of knowledge through all these books that are available to, you know, magicians that are uh that include psychology, misdirection, showmanship, slight of hand, all these different elements, hypnosis, [clears throat] and then so you just keep adding to your tool belt all of these um all these method building practices. And so when you're observing things in the natural world that might

particular you know this the sulfur coming off of you know like uh you know extraterrestrial bodies or whatever you know things like that um and you sort of build this like this model but I I know very few people who spend a significant amount of time in the topic who have a very internally consistent and comprehensive worldview as to how it works. And so in that sense, I think it's the ultimate puzzle. yeah, it's definitely it it definitely feels that way. And um the finding

connections, I think it's just another natural ability that our brains have. And then the deeper you go into being interested in methodology, the more you're inclined to make those connections. And someone like you, you make so many connections cuz you've accumulated this wealth of knowledge from all these books and all these experiences and interesting people you've spoken with that now you and like UAP Gerb, you you guys have this amazing ability to find these connections that

otherwise I'd be oblivious to. You know what I mean? So it's, you know, for me, you guys, your mind works a behaves a lot like a magician's mind would. Um, but instead of learning about slight of hand, psychology and misdirection and all that, you guys have learned about, you know, the phenomenon. And so that's that's why I'm just so enamored by what you guys are doing because I I see myself, you know, in that same realm just with a different topic. Absolutely. Well, when did you start? So the new channel is Area 52. Everybody go subscribe right now. the way that it got

started. I was posting on YouTube, I've, you know, had a YouTube channel that dealt with magic and puzzles for a decade and that was going, you know, fairly well. And a friend of mine who is a memory champion, Nelson Delos, very interesting guy. Shout out to Nelson. He's six time US memory champ, you know, very leftrained. Uh, went to university for physics. Uh, teaches like computer stuff at university. He's he's a really genuinely smart, bright, and curious And I caught wind of him from like this

Netflix doc and I was like or like he remembers things. I was like I could use that for magic somehow, right? I want to learn how to do a mind palace. I mean that would really help me out perhaps with a certain trick. And Harry Lorraine, who's this like old magician, was also like a master at memory work. And so I was like, "Oh, I need to you befriend this guy and like learn from him." And so I did that and he taught me, you know, how to memorize a deck of cards in five minutes from a shuffled stack or um all these different things. And I started exchanging, you know, how

I could pretend to memorize a deck and make it look the exact same. And he was really like fascinated by that. So we'd start catching out, you know, um people who were cheating at memory stuff and got very interesting. And one day he just slips this by and he's like, "Yeah, I did this." He's like, "Do you know what remote viewing is?" And I go, "Yeah, I think I've heard of it. I think, you know, I watched this documentary back in the day with like Soviet psychic spies or something. And he goes, "Yeah, so I was on this Facebook group, A Memory,

them, his name is Brett Stewart. He's, uh, he also remote views for a living and like I guess makes enough money to earn a living, you know? So for me, I'm like, that's a really interesting and important thing to say, like, you know, if remote viewing is real or not, like, well, if this guy's making a living off of remote, that's kind of wild. So, it really shifted my perception immediately. But also, red flags started popping up because as a magician, I also know, you know, there's there's so many different factors that factor into this

is uh, you know, obviously confirmation bias and all these other factors, but I had no idea of anything Stargate, Sri or any of that. And so I asked him if he could teach me because they trained him an hour a day for a month. Before he started doing ARV, associative remote viewing. So basically, you're not actually remote viewing uh the the up or down of the market. You're remote viewing something, a target unknown to you. And there are two targets actually. And whatever your session is closest to, that image is has

a relationship like up or down that you don't know about. so that you're not actually removing the stock market and you're never told whether you're right or wrong. So there's no like positive feedback loop or whatever that is. So anyways, he teaches me this, we start documenting it because I'm like this could be cool for the channel, you know, it's something I've always been interested in in this sort of space and um we start getting really crazy results, like good results. Like it starts you're like whoa, this is there might be something here and over and over and over again it's

just not to be ignored. There's just something. It's like the even the general gestalt of a lot of these uh viewings were correct, you know, where it's like, oh, it's a building and then I describe and yeah, sure enough, it's a building or it's a, you know, uh a life form or whatever that is. And so start to document this, go through the whole process, and by the end of it, I had created this like whole documentary, and I was like, I can't put this on my magic channel. This is too wild. Yeah. and I decided to start a new

The Area 52, and then that just led me down a rabbit hole. So, long long story, that's how I got into That's amazing. Well, I'm I'm so grateful you had that experience and it bridged you into this this new world. I I find that interesting because that's my own experience too which is I uh became interested in quote unquote parasychology before UFOs as well because I think once you start to think that physics you know and physics is a poor compression of what we're talking about reality is different than what it seems uh then it allows for all sorts of

like different consensus realities and and timelines and you know ones possibly involving you know extraterrestrials or craft or you know non-human intelligence Uh so yeah, it's a it's that's a really interesting bridge and it's one that I I I had as well. Um okay, so you start the channel uh in 2023. What is the biggest thing you feel like you've updated on in the world of UFOs since starting?

I would say like like I always Okay, so I I'd entered the space with a with a bit of a bias. I I kind of had I kind of had a centered sort of balanced perspective, but I did want to believe that these things were true and I knew that about myself. So coming coming into this um I knew that I had to try my best to put that confirmation bias aside and also give it a a skeptic's sort of eye cuz otherwise I'd just be, you know, misled and I didn't want that to happen.

I also didn't want to become the Amazing Randy, you know, where famously if people think of magic and they think of UFOs, they think of Amazing Randy. Um, he had this show where at first he would give you 10 grand if you proved something paranormal would exist. And by the end of it was a million dollars. It was a million dollars if you could prove anything sort of paranormal or parasychological or whatever existed, ESP, all these things. And which nobody ever really collected the million dollars. But I always found it unfair watching those shows because even the

energy that I'm not and I'm not saying that anyone that did his show had any ability. I just thought they got off on the wrong foot regardless. I don't think you should approach something with such, you know, intense skepticism. I do think that now it might actually hinder the result somehow. You know, I think that's a possibility and I just don't want to I I kind of want to leave this space open. So, coming into this space, I wanted to have this balanced perspective,

never commit to one thing or the other, have my own sort of internal, you know, um, beliefs, but also be able to set those aside. And I think once I started doing that, I started unraveling in my own sort of view of reality what what seems to be this link between consciousness and UFOs and remote viewing. And I started, you know, putting it together sort of myself with all these cases, everything else. And

like for me, I think that's just the most important thing to focus on in the space is this connection. And I'm not talking about psionics specifically, but like also the the government's interest Is huge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is hu they are hugely interested in That is apparent. Of course, you know, if you look at what they did with Stargate, that's 20 years, $20

That's a lot of resources. It's a lot of time. And you got to think 20 years. Every year they had to go in front of a to make sure the budget was approved for the next year. That's right. And so Joe McMonogle would do that. He'd go into a skiff and do some remote viewing and they'd come away feeling like well yeah I guess we got to keep Right. So I mean and and that's a lot of pressure when you think about that cuz like what if you got that session wrong especially for something that would be get such you know kind of bizarro optical scrutiny. You think that would be the first thing to cut. Of course,

the flip of that is like I'm a skeptic on the outside and I'm saying, well, you know, B2 bomber is like, you know, two billion plus or whatever. So, like, why are you only spending $20 million on the most important, you know, question? Yeah. That's the beauty of it because all you need is a pen and paper. Yeah. Right. Because there's no real why do you even need 20 million? What do you need? Totally. It's uh, you know, it's the cheapest form of Intel. Yeah. Um, and what was interesting in 90 I think 96 was like this dine thing where they came out and said like, "Oh,

it's uh it's not re like it's real, but like we had this program, but honestly it never really gave us anything and the results were whatever." And he says something kind of like he lied by omission a little bit where he goes uh something to the effect of um we don't we've we never used remote viewing as a credible single source of intel or whatever. It was something to that effect. But the idea was that you wouldn't use any any mode of intel as a single source.

You would always have to it would always corroborate something else. Correct. It's always an overlay on top of like other sources and methods. Exactly. And that and that's I think the value in remote viewing for the government. They're not going to use remote viewing to, you know, find a hostage purely on remote viewing. They're going to give you coordinates of where they think the hostage is and then they're going to remote view possibly how many guards there are in that building guarding the hostages, you know. So it it it'll never be like, "Hey, you know, where's the holy grail?"

and then they go dig up in the desert where the Holy Grail is, they'll always have some other piece of intel, whether it's satellite footage or witness or whatever it is. Before the remote viewing comes in. And so, you know, it's I I think for how little you're spending, you would be you would be absolutely stupid not to use it. I've heard many remote viewers talk about it like you're viewing a bunch of uh possible alternative timelines like almost like uh the wave function in

physics or whatever and uh you know it's it's yeah there's some probability that you're going to end up on the one that you have remote viewed or predicted but you have to take it sort of loosely. And then there's obviously the analytical overlay where you get a download but you shouldn't necessarily be the one interpreting your download. you know, somebody should be kind of intellectually scrutinizing it. And you know, it seems like there are all these methods uh or failure modes rather for it. But there's a woman named Jessica Us who uh ran the American Statistical

Society. And she looked at all of the data, you know, for Stargate, you know, the Psychic Sky program that ran that you're talking about from the 70s to the '90s. and uh she looked at the whole thing and along with Ray Heyman who is actually a James Randy uh colleague interesting and and fellow skeptic at the University of Oregon and uh Uts came out saying if uh basically she used P value which I'm sure you're familiar with you know highly elevated beyond she was like if if uh we were to apply this scrutiny to any other field of science it would be beyond you know

uh the p values would be way you know uh uh less than expected as far as you know the probability that you you you'd get hits this many times. Um so yeah, it's fascinating. We we sort of look at that and the goalpost shifts the goalpost shifts and you just say well no you're wrong. We have to do another one. You have to do another one. And the the other interesting thing that you kind of touched on is like you talked about James Randy in the world in which parasychology is true and there is some sort of mind matter interaction. And we

don't live in this perfectly cartisian dualist, you know, separation of mind matter thing. Inherently, a skeptic coming to the experiment is going to affect the results. And that's why it's it has to be this almost epistemological paradigm shift, not a scientific paradigm shift, because that involves a priorized skepticism. And so you you're going to affect and and it's crazy. And then you end up in this thing where it's like you can't affect the results as an experimentter. I'm like, but actually you can. But if there is an effect, of course you can. So it's this sort of like endless kind

of kind of loop. There's a there's um you know that Princeton had its own parasychology lab, the pair lab. Y and they had this global consciousness project or whatever where random event generators were tested. So these sort of binary computers tied to something random in quantum mechanics and they would go off at certain moment. So like 911 was the biggest spike they've ever Exactly. But they would also go off when Bob John, formerly dean of the engineering school, um when he died. And so [clears throat] it was clear in that case it was the opposite

experimental effect where in their mind Bob John dying was as important as 9/11 or like you know some somewhat as important. And um so it it just goes to show I think you end up with all this muddiness. And it actually you you know you you you have to kind of change your paradigm Yeah. Yeah, even studying it becomes very difficult in that case, you know, and that's like even even if you again taking like you know the James Randy sort of because a lot of people are like well if those like telepathy tape kids

if those kids are psychic why don't they just collect a million dollars from James Randy like well you have to understand that those tests aren't in a vacuum either. Yeah. Like those aren't those don't live up to any scientific they're they're it's a game show. You know what I mean? There's there's so much personal bias involved that like that would never be accepted as a fair Either way. Absolutely. And if you were to tell like I say, you know, an electron exists like nobody would like, you know, argue. Then I say, have you detected an electron?

And nobody would have detected an electron. And then you say like, oh, your mind can somehow, you know, in a statistically significant way. Uh we don't know how it works, but affect uh you know, um what's supposed to be a random output because it's tied to something in quantum mechanics. it's supposed to be random. Um, you'd say, "No, no, that's impossible." But it would, it's just your bias. There's literally nothing about an electron measurement that you are like you should be higher conviction in than this other thing. Um, and so yeah, I don't know. I find that I find that fascinating.

the guy who did the Stanford prison experiment. So you had like this like who's who of scientists but the main thing that he said was like there's there's this one rule you have to come into this skeptic we have to so they together created the kind of in how to measure these p values in these tests and they had six remote viewers over sort of you know data he has data of six remote viewers over 30 years you know that's a lot of data so

they have all of this data with these, you know, with these people and they had to like sort of map out how do we effectively test them because it's so there's so many variables to consider when you're drawing, you know, a building like, okay, if I have a building and I just draw like the the target is a building and I draw just like a rectangle, what is that? How do you quantify that? How do you put that on a number scale? Well, does the building have windows? Now, if you're drawing windows and now the windows, right? And so like maybe the ratio to a

person in the building for the height. So there's all these little tiny factors that they would have to factor in because otherwise confirmation bias could be like yeah rectangle rectangle. It's a building. He got it 10 on 10, right? So they really had to be skeptical and be like look we have to draw that line, you know, in a way that that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I think I think, you know, Dr. May wrote uh together with, you know, other collaborators over two million words on on that, right? And you have all the hits and the misses. It's not like he's

only showing you the good results. You have the bad results, too. But if you consider the P value and the amount of times they got something right and the high accuracy, it almost makes you think they're cheating sometimes when you look at the results, you're like, how? Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, I've been with Mc Monagle and experienced it myself where it's like a friend of mine drew like a little spiky thing and it was a pineapple and it's like and the pineapple was in this manila envelope that McMongle had brought and you're like this feels like magic like it's insane

what what the hell is going on and this wasn't even McM this is McMonogle teaching us the method in like a 10minute period. Uh so it's so fascinating. I think if you were to audit anybody's kind of day-to-day, you know, experience, they would say they experience all sorts of things like this. And then I think what something um like that needs to turn into mainstream science is you need to be able to put math behind it and you need to make it repeatable, like very repeatable. Um and I think we don't

know how to do either, you I think the repeatability is it's still like loose enough where it's it's not like you know every time I drop this pen it like it you know drops to the ground like you're not like gravity or whatever and it's hard to put uh math to it. It's hard to quantify that. Yeah, it's hard to quantify it but it doesn't make it less of a very real and measurable anomaly that will likely point to a future kind of scientific paradigm because they always do. Yeah. But they they are doing interesting things to support uh more accurate results. So they're finding ways to enhance the results. M

and you know by doing tests over and over and over and over with the same people you're able to map out you know what works and what doesn't and really interesting findings one was you know when they originally found these uh remote viewers they had they had basically reached out to 600 individuals and tested them uh 1% of which turned out to have a significant talent in remote viewing uh but these people ranged from all walks of life but like mental level geniuses uh you had you had Stanford alumni in there. You had intelligence people. You

had civilians. And out of all these people, out of 600 people, six people were chosen to have significant talent. Now, 6 out of 600 doesn't seem like much. That's 1% of the population. That's quite a bit when you think about And of a very elite pool to begin with. Correct. Yeah. Well, elite, but it also had like it had all sorts of people in there at the end. It wasn't just, you uh like super geniuses or anything. It it didn't matter. It was these other factors. And one of those factors was these people they found out afterwards all had sesthesia.

That's amazing. So these are the original people for Stargate. They all had sesthesia. To for the audience sesthesia is the kind of entanglement or coupling of senses. So like every time you hear a particular note you you know you see a color or something. Kanye West I think or Fel have like you could smell you could smell a sound or like it's the it's the mixing of senses how your brain interprets two different senses. Those people apparently have pretty um

have the had the best results. Well, there's a woman named Dr. Ia Whitley. She's a space psychologist and she works on with astronauts and fighter pilots for their like sort of space readiness or like high performance environments. But uh on the side and maybe this is not on the side, maybe this is related to her core work. Uh she so babies apparently are all born with senesthesia. Oh, right. And 6 months in uh they lose sesthesia. And so she is working on modalities to

help uh uh babies and children retain their their senesthesia for longer because I'm sure you lose all sorts of perceptive awareness in the process. all of what you're talking about right now where if there's a correlation between that and remote viewing, maybe you come out of the womb with more of these latent abilities. Mhm. Yeah. And you're, you know, also closer to the source kind of, right? You're coming right out of that. And I mean, that is that is really interesting, especially when you tie it back to these non-verbal autistic children where a lot of them also

are cynices. Yes. You know, so there is um it is interesting to think that hey, if there's a way to induce sesthesia or to preserve it or to train it. Or to just nurture it naturally even um that that might lead to better results in these in the sigh sort of sphere. Um one another really interesting part is entropy is a big factor in these results as well. the more entropy

something has, the more accurate the um the session is. That's fascinating because there's even a term called centropy in biology, which is uh biological systems, their attraction to order and to non-entropic system. One of the greatest neuroscientists of our time is a guy named Carl Fristen. He has the free energy principle and neurons are literally attracted to uh lower entropy systems. you know, not not you can randomize signals and and make neurons,

you know, train them to do things through Pavlovian conditioning because that's seen as punishment uh for them. So that is that's just fascinating that um uh that we're sort of attracted to to to order and then and then maybe you're more likely to view something that is Yeah. And the reason for that might be also that our brains are kind of hardwired to detect change, right? M. And so if you look at the Gansfeld experiments, for example, you're you're basically numbing your senses, you're

kind of in a sensory deprivation thing due to having like a red light in your face for 10 or 15 minutes. Eventually, because it hasn't changed at all, your brain perceives it as black. You just won't see it anymore. And then that white noise you're listening to after about 10 or 15 minutes ceases to be heard as well because your brain's kind of it's kind of like if you walk into a room and you can smell something like in your house you're like what is that smell and a half an hour later it's gone. You don't smell it anymore. You get used to it. Your brain tends to not

detect it if there's no entropy. there's no change. And so on perhaps a quantum field level, we're also hardwired to detect change, which makes it a lot easier to remote view places that have nuclear energy or bombs or, you know, anything regarding uh someone's life cuz that apparently has a big entropic uh sort of correlation as well that the loss of life or the endangerment of life actually allows the remote viewers to

have a more accurate viewing, which is why like hostage situations or like finding missing children, those those things are all really really um easier to remote view. Uh they used to douse um target sites with um liquid nitrogen and they would get more accurate results when they did that. that's fascinating because it creates local entropy. Correct. Well, it makes so I've always thought there was an interesting angle there with the nuclear stuff because often with nuclear spills, there's this

woman named Jensen Andre, Harvard PhD, who documents a lot of these nuclear disasters and how UFOs show up consistently around the nuclear dis. So, I mean, there aren't that many at this point, but like the the two kind of most staple ones would probably be Fukushima in in 2011 and then uh Chernobyl in the '90s. And in both cases, people see the UFOs come down and seemingly clean up the radiation. And there's all this interesting novel work uh in science

right now being done. There's a guy named Michael Leven at TUS talks about bio electricity and the bioelectric field of the body and how basically the the uh uh um electromagnetic field that a biological system is growing up in dictates its morphology in a more fundamental way. M uh than you know the what he calls the hardware which is just the DNA and the proteins. And so you have this software writing like this coding going on from the environment itself. And you have to think if a nuke goes off

it totally messes with that. And radiation accelerates evolution. Like if you look at like in Chernobyl now you have like mutated dogs and frogs and you know um because it's just differential selection plus mutation. So like the more mutations you get, the more you know, the more uh various selection. Um and then and then on the flip side, you know, you can kind of, you know, stagnate. You put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it doesn't grow properly. So there's something about the magneettosphere of the earth that is um

almost like this perfect petri dish for life. Correct. And if you're like this UFO like monitoring the thing, you freak out when like you see you see this like high entropy spike. You go. And then I'm sure like same with our remote viewing. Yeah. And I think that's why we have them in a sense like this isn't new. We're kind of rediscovering this perhaps intuitive sense, but perhaps to them they're hardwired in a way to be way more receptive to that. So they don't have to hang around. Maybe maybe they could be on the other side of the

universe and they get this entropic spike and they just know that they got to like boop, show up, take care of business, right? Almost like a fail safe. Yeah. And so maybe genetically somehow we inherited that from from you know whatever whatever theory of life you want to you you want to put to that. But I think that maybe that's just like a fundamental part of also um survival. You know so if you look at like cuz obviously extraterrestrials this is like we think of this as like the peak evolution of you know of hu of humankind

perhaps or of living entity. uh you you become really attached to this quantum field and therefore you can have all these amazing abilities like telepathy and remote viewing and perhaps you know uh billocation and all these amazing things, right? But on a lower scale uh which would be like us or even our um we we kind of only have that when necessary for survival. It's like the very bottom of it. But it would probably be used and Joe McBongle talks a lot

about that too. It would probably be used to like know where to dig for water or know where to set up camp or know where not to go at night or you know what uh what what food to eat. Like how did the shaman know not to eat this mushroom? Oh, the mushroom told me like he had this like intuitive instinct. They wouldn't just eat it and then die and be like don't eat the mushrooms here. Y they would know. they would like tell people no the plants are speaking to me and that's kind of how they and so there is this like sense of um I I I I do

think there is a very very fundamental uh sigh ability in everybody when it comes to survival and that's why we experience things like this during high stress environments because we're triggering something that perhaps allows us to in some precogn nitive way know what's going to happen a second before it does before we get hit in the face or or shot or like so I think we still have that innate ability but then there are

these mutations uh in in people's physiology that allow them to have you know uh access to you know the these sesthesia properties that allow them to have a little bit more and and and I think it's really interesting and I don't know if whether you know the the autism thing that we're experiencing I think you you touched on this too is perhaps related to this like what is this? Is this why are we seeing more of these cases now? Is this just some type of weird evolution or is this you know

is this bad? Is this good? It's just interesting. Oh, it's so fascinating and and I think our world now, you know, is is kind of an anomaly compared to the past where we have sanitization, we have safety, but uh really, you know, we were constantly under duress, stress, and you know, there's sort of prey and safe or sorry, predators and safety concerns constantly in the past. And especially, you know, evolution occurs along, you know, a couple of different tracks. So

you have individual selection, sexual selection, but you also have group selection. And often in a group, you have a person who is selected for who um might not be selected for on an individual level. And they're selected for more if the group is under duress. So geniuses are often asexual. They're they're not super social, you know, they're not they're maladaptive in all these other ways. And if you talk to Joseph Bing Monagle, you know, remote viewer number one, he'll say that uh she shamans in the past were often very

sickly and, you know, on an individual level, not the most vital or likely to kind of, you know, um uh move their genes forward, but uh really selected for by by the group because they led the group into I mean it's they were fed, they were brought medicine because they would also provide that service to the rest of the group which is like these precognitive things or these readings. totally adaptive to get these downloads that where if the whole world is sort of a search space

like it's like what what is the likelihood you're going to come up with the the vine that's DMTri and the you know MAO inhibitor or whatever that needs to come from some different epistemic pathway like trial and error Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours it does and if that exists at all it's going to be selected for in those parad paradigms or contexts when you're sort of in the dark and you're like with a little clan of people and I think that just exists sort of less and the the other kind of mental model to have around it is that

maybe we are ported into these low-level senses all Plato like we are in a cave and uh you know Plato would say don't trust your senses there's a higher world of kind of form you know ideas and and and kind of plonic ideals up here. Yes. um you know that that supersede the world of forms and when you see these uh kids these non-verbal autistic kids in the telepathy tapes remote view they need to be situated in their bodies which if you think of like a VR headset you need to like see your hands and then

you're like in it and you're like okay I'm good I'm in the VR thing I'm ported in and if you if you don't you're still like in some other kind of liinal realm and being in that liinal realm might give you more access to the primordial stuff to that different epistemic circuit where you get the downloads and that that feels like them. They're disembodied in some ways but they're connected to like more primordial you know as well. What is up alchemist? If you're interested in

joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive never-beforeseen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Shehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein, then please join our [ __ ] community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new [ __ ] I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarfat and former American Alchemist Science Bob Magcguire. Head over to wap.com/jesse

Michaels. Michaels with no a to become a member today. That's wap.com/j sm i ls. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode. Kind of like Yeah. These are like the avatars that we sort of inhibit and they they are they can function autonomously. they don't need like our bodies I don't think need the consciousness to survive. I think that you have a brain for that. You have you know a heart for that and a stomach for that. Um the consciousness is kind of what what's driving But I do think like on a survival basis

like we jump back to using the physicalness to help us sort of you know navigate this this planet. But yeah, definitely that's, you know, why we get these quote unquote downloads through meditation, through astral projection, through dreams. These are all states that you don't need your body for. And you know, your your body is I think your brain, you know, uses time and uses all these things to help it survive. But I I think that we're getting to a point in

this comfort we're allowing ourselves to leave our bodies now we don't have to babysit the physical body anymore and we're kind of oh, you know, experimenting with these DMTs and these everything else to try and you know, get what's out there in a in a more meaningful way and in a less um stress induced environment. I think like cuz you know, you hear these Jake Barbers that say like, oh, you know, it's stress inoculation and like you got to be under high stress for this thing to happen. And I'm like, I think yes, I think

that's probably a way of doing it. And of course like you probably get some results but I think it's really important that we work perhaps towards a way of achieving that through other emotional states because I think it might be you know it might take a lot more work and a lot more studying less u instant results like than zapping someone and and telling them what do you see you know um is maybe meditating for a year you know an hour every day for a year and seeing what happens then

you or or trying, you know, I'm not saying trying drugs, but like, you know, experimenting safely with these other alternative psychedelics to see if there's something there. I think, you know, I think definitely we should be leaning a little bit more into that than leaning into the fear side of it. That's just uh intuitively what I think, you know, it might help you survive, but I don't think it really helps you You know, in in a meaningful way. Yeah. So if UFOs show up, you know, in

um high entropy systems where it's like they have to restore the order around uh kind of radiation or nuclear spills, I feel like another pattern again in the UFO world where it's so hard to find actually patterns. It's so it's so confusing is they seem to show up around people in particular states of consciousness. And we were at a party the other night and some friends of mine brought up this Hyperion uh sci-fi uh trilogy or something. I was I might be botching this but in it apparently according to them

uh we're like you know flames that like like little nodes that light up and like like a moth to a flame they see when people reach certain levels of consciousness. Do you do you think that the UFOs sort of exist in that in that way where where um you know it's sort of high entropy with you know trying to clean up the nuclear spills but then also they are attracted to people who seem like they are lighting up consciousness wise. Yeah, I think that could be the case and

I don't want to generalize because I also do think we might not be dealing with one entity here. Y and so there could be a a plethora of of outcomes here and and reasons why we're being visited or or you know we could have been conditioned and man manipulated genetically to do that. So it's no surprise to them. They're not coming from that far. They're just kind of like oh finally they're they're doing the thing. Um, you know, I often think it's it's it's

interesting, but I often think that you know, we we place ourselves in kind of the center of our own universe, obviously, from our perspective. And we do assume that there is life out there. You know, you'd be you'd be an idiot not to assume that there's intelligent life in in this universe other than us, I think. Um, however, if you were able to use the type of technology that they are using, which is seemingly almost instantaneous travel through time and space, like

these warping of gravity and and manipulating of spaceime where they can just appear and disappear, you'd be able to bounce around and see an infinite number of exoplanets, right? And if you consider that we are where we're going right now, our human trajectory is showing us that we have people like Elon Musk um who want to get past this barrier and preserve life by spreading our seed onto other planets in the solar system and eventually out into the

galaxy. If that is our goal for you know, I'd like to picture I'd like to fast forward that. And I' I'd think it's pretty depressing that we end up just constantly living underground because even even all these exoplanets, there's never going to be the perfect or the perfect radiation levels or carbon dioxide or there's always going to be something that's going to kill you, right? Because you're just you didn't grow there. And so you'd

constantly be wearing suits or living in a bubble and it just doesn't seem like a really good way to preserve your species. And so I I think that if you were able to bounce around the universe and find all these exoplanets, it would be a lot easier and make way more sense if we were to find the native life that already inhabited these planets and simply manipulate our genetic code into theirs. So that way we could live there. or maybe not me personally, but my ancestors or something. And so we'd

start jumping around the universe instantly to maybe a 100,000 exoplanets all at the same time. And then grabbing a plant from here, changing it up a bit, dropping it over here, and doing the same with human life or or whatever type of life you find there and experimenting. Perhaps on this planet, we're going to, you know, insert a little bit more of this um consciousness um, you know, genetic system into a

and see how that turns out. And then do that with apes and then do that with birds or, you know, and and try all these different things out. And then every thousand years pop back and introduce agriculture or irrigation systems or metallurgy or religion and language and just kind of like see how these things are all seeding and how they're all you know sort of growing together. And then I I mean this is going really deep and far, but I also think that if you were able to manipulate gravity in such a way, let's

say I didn't have a home planet and you could just Yeah. you could just like tune your craft to like a a higher density or something and just create like a essential little black hole around your craft and fast forward a thousand years. Yeah. So essentially, you could go through the whole evolution of our entire known universe and the seeding of it in an afternoon, you know, like it wouldn't it wouldn't change anything. If you don't have any loved ones at home

waiting for you and you're just in a craft locally, then time is of no consequence. Like what happens on the outside of that craft doesn't change what happens on the inside. So, why wouldn't you just do something fast forward, keep doing it, fast forward, and literally like, you know, it's like hitting the X button when you're when you're playing a video game to like, you know, skip past all the uh all the cut scenes. It's kind of what they're doing. I think why wouldn't you do it that way? Why would you wait? Sounds so weird if you can manipulate

Yeah. And so it just I just think that like and then you hear these high macheds and like the Galactic Federation, they're here to stop our nukes. We hear that all the time. We we catch some of them picking up samples and putting them on their ships through these. And so this all feels like this this zoo, but not in a way that's like a zoo, but like in a way that's like the preservation of like the seed of life throughout the universe. I I kind of I kind of feel like that's what we're that's what's happening. Like

if you look at all the signs. No, it's so far. I mean like Elon Musk always says we have to preserve the tiny candle flickering in the darkness of human consciousness. But then you think about I actually at one time I had the very great honor of meeting Warner Herzog who like spent a lot of time with and he was like you know great German Great narrator. Amazing narrator. Amazing. In fact, when I met him, his son went to college to me with me and introduced me um to to uh

Werner and um I was like, "How was Simon?" You know, his son and he goes, "Oh, Simon, you know, injured his hat like in his like typical German. I'm going to botch it." But he starts narrating his son's like, you know, uh uh basically like like his bicycle. [laughter] Yes. Yes. And when he came to the ground, his hand was broken. [laughter] Yes. Yes. He kept going super describing that monotone like like grizzly man style like and feeling the pain of his hand. [laughter]

He couldn't go. Yeah. I was like, "Oh, I hope he feels better now." [laughter] Imagine him reading bedtime stories at night. Eh, wild him or Morgan Freeman. Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. Um, so I spent a little bit of time with him and he was like, you know, I think he really admired Elon. They spent some time together, but he was like, "What are you going to do on Mars?" like you're going to like put yourself in a telephone booth, an oxygenated telephone booth. Like he was like, "This isn't realistic. This is Not only uh from the standpoint of, you

ability to harness energy harness energy can you harness the energy of your planet can you harness the energy you know Dyson sphere of the sun or whatever um that itself is probably extremely limited by our frameworks and so it's probably something way more like consciousness if there is any separation between soul and body. Yeah. It's obviously adaptive to not like be stuck in like a meat suit if you're traveling elsewhere. Correct. Yeah. And I think the other thing that you said that I find very fascinating is like, you know, there could be a whole

plethora of things going on. If you admit that there are, you know, one faction of aliens, the answer is probably not one at that point. It's it's kind of zero to infinity. Yes. You know, [laughter] like the likelihood that there is just one species that's reached you is much lower than like again it's either zero. The Firmeny paradox is like it somehow is a paradox or much more than that. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. What's the um what's what's the thing in Star Trek it's called like the is it the first protocol or what is the the the prime directive?

The prime directive. Yeah. I feel like that has some truth to it as well. Oh, for sure. like where they're waiting for us to get to a certain point. And it's like I find if I were this like omnipotent ruling being who is able to create life and generate consciousness within these complex life forms and sort of am intelligent enough to manipulate all of this and to watch it grow and to like be the cedar of life throughout the universe. seeing Elon build these, you know, gasp propelled sort of uh ships uh

and trying to make it to like this desolate dead planet to make to seed life. I'd be like a right? It's kind of like when I watch a crow use a stick to get his food, right? Where I'm like, "You're on the right track, buddy. You're doing it. Good job." You know, you're so cute and smart. Um, but I I do think like, you know, anything we can think of has probably already been thought of in the universe and in the grand scale

of of of where information lives. I don't think we're making anything new. And so, no, you know, all of this uh all this whole process of trying I think is is cute. But I ultimately think that if that's the goal, then someone had already achieved it in the universe. M you know it's like if if this world were to disappear tomorrow, we'd come up with the same math formulas if a new one Like so where where does that come from? Right. Information isn't a cloud. It's all around us. It's sort of omnipresent. Uh and so we're not really inventing anything. We're just

kind of just rediscovering things all the time. And if that's true, then fast forward it all and it probably already exists. And so therefore, you know, we're probably already being observed by these things. And you know, and they're just kind of like, oh, that's nice. Yeah. What they're doing. And then maybe when somebody lights up along the vector they care about, the consciousness thing, they take note. And they take an interest. Um, speaking of the Elon thing, you know, there are all these rumors. You you did an amazing piece on Chris Blood, so I recommend everybody check out this

von Braonn was definitely very trippy guy. And [snorts] I think if you rewind even more so, you get into the Nazis infatuation with the occult as well, right? And where did a lot of those Nazis end up, you know, after through paperclip and through and through um running our space program. Yeah, exactly. Running our space programs and then and uh and Overcast as well, right? And so like you Lord knows where those people are, you know, so in other in other, you know, denominations and defactions of the government. But,

you know, so you have to think that like that was some type of weird tradition that those sort of Nazis were doing back in the day first. They were kind of already and then like rewind further back, you know, and if the further you go back, the more that this stuff becomes really really relevant and it just I don't think it just ever went away, you know? I don't think this is new that like NASA's doing this. Yeah. Yeah. So, what do you make of do you believe like Diana Pulka, you know, wrote some amazing books on UFOs. She's

a religious studies professor. She talks second century Latin being written. Yeah. Like old Latin. Old Latin. Uh uh I think on the the rocket like the fairing or something. Um what do you what do you make of that? Yeah, I looked into a lot of those patches actually which was really interesting. like they have these launch patches, these mission patches at NRO and a lot of them are just kind of morale boosters and you know I was even trying to figure out like who's designing these and for the main part

it's the crew. Uh the crew are the ones that are in charge of what the patches are and the missions are. So sometimes you'll see little Easter eggs in those patches with like crew initials and that type of thing. And then other times, yeah, you'll see like kind of more esoteric or occult, you know, depictions. Yeah. You do an amazing and like in each almost all of your episodes, you do like a patch review. Yeah. The the earlier ones. Yeah. We do we do a lot of those. Yeah. And they're fantastic. And some of them

are so strange. It's like the the devil you know is is is you know, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't or something. And it's like why are you writing this? or like, you know, you talk about Misty Echo, which I think you tweeted, you know, on the uh I think it was an Area 51 patch. It's so And it's like an egg, like a lady inside the egg and you're is you asked the question, is it are you just totally messing with us or you know, and it's like this hilarious inside joke or is there something to it?

I think it's both. Yeah. I definitely think it's both. I think sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other, sometimes it's more. Mhm. Uh but you know if you if you listen to Diana Pulkin, she talks about this a lot about the ritualistic sort of uh rituals that they do prior to launching like wearing the same type of clothes or standing in a certain spot or eating a certain food or whatever that is. There's like there's these minor rituals. And I think the way that she kind of puts it is that

the math on rocket launching it has to be so accurate. Like the physics on it and everything has to line up so almost divinely because if there's a hair off of any one of these components and all of these compartmentalized components by the way like when you're working this isn't just UFOs. When you're working at a rocket company you're compartmentalized. You're not, you don't know what part this goes to. You just have to make it do the one thing they're asking. Be much easier if

they could tell you what it's for, but they don't, right? So, all of these things have to line up. That's so precise like no deviation. And so, they think that, well, why not also line that up, the spiritual? Yeah. Yeah. And so part of me understands that like if you're if you're working with stuff that's so precise, lives are in danger a lot of You know what I mean? And and a lot of money is on the line and a lot of pressure and a lot of stress like you

know I I don't I don't see the difference between that and praying. Oh yeah. No. So I do think there is like this divine alignment that they now the question is is there a data set that shows a uh difference. Yeah. Well I think I think both of us would say the data set is just parasychology or something. It's like the it's like the the random event generator stuff like your mind and its orientation has any impact on reality.

and he asked uh are there weapons on And they said yeah and he goes that's why that's why it's not working. They don't want it to work. That's what he said. So you know I don't know whether there's any truth to that. But I think maybe the you know intention is obviously a very important factor in Uh and I think in life and outcomes in life. Correct. Absolutely. And so if the intent is to harm uh defend or attack regardless.

Yeah. I think that maybe you would need you know, sort of align yourself Uh so that it so that it happens. Yeah. You have to balance it out. So like align yourself with bad factions to make it work if Yeah. It's it's really fascinating. I mean, even you can watch like, you know, Countdown to Launch about SpaceX and Gwen Shotwell, who's the COO of SpaceX, who basically runs it at this point,

she's like, I wear my special shoes, you know, for for launch or whatever. Like like everybody in that world does have a ritual. And Jack Parsons actually read uh this book called The Golden Bow by JG Frasier, this 19th century And that book involves hermetic magical rituals among indigenous tribes. and they engage in two forms of magic. Homeopathic magic and sympathetic magic. Homeopathic magic, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with these concepts, you know, is like uh I believe the

likeness of, you know, an object you're trying to affect. So, it's like a voodoo doll or something. And sympathetic magic is like, you know, hair, teeth, and nails, like literally like stuff from the thing you're trying to affect. So, all this seems like kind of this, you know, weird witchcraft or whatever. But JG uh uh JG Frasier, this anthropologist, notices that when these tribes encounter kind of enlightenment, skepticism, and thought, the rituals lose their power. And um Jack Parsons read that book and

he came out saying, "I believe that uh science is a form of magic. Magic is not a form of science." Which you being a magician, I don't know. I don't know how you feel about that because we've gone back and forth on you know and you're like you know there are all sorts of things that seem like sort of totally remarkable and you're like yeah but like I could tell you how to do that and then there are other things where you're like but given the right circumstances for a magician like magicians are more likely to encounter sort of miracles as well.

So like how how do you reconcile that's so fascinating? Yeah. Um, yeah. No, I am kind of torn on that because on one hand, I do believe that everything can be explained As a magician, that is my job. To deconstruct something. So, my job is to make the impossible seem real, right? It's a very strange and and and hard thing to do. So, you know, for instance, we would start with the effect, which is the

moment of astonishment. that the spectator would feel and uh and then work backwards from there. Right? So what the effect is, let's say, okay, you want the effect to be uh 100 people seeing a UFO appear in the sky. Okay. So the method that I'm that I'm thinking like there's so many methods that I can go back to is okay, there's technology obviously we can involve some type of like hologram technology. We can amplify that using probably sound as well, even

like some type of vibration. Uh we can then amplify that. We can probably mask some uh some of that as well. If it was nighttime, right? Obviously, you can you can get away with a lot more at night. Maybe in the middle of the night if we wake these people up, they'll be a little bit more susceptible to using their imagination and being in like this dream state. um you know perhaps these people as well are more inclined to believe something like this before we get into it. Let's survey the area and try to find people who would be more inclined to believe in

something like this. You know, so when you start deconstructing things as a magician, you can create the reality, right? You create the framework for what they believe is real. And that that's what SCOP is, too. It's the exact same thing. That's literally where my mind went. It's like if you were perpetrating a SCOP in this area, you'd look for like these specific traits around like high impressionability. Yeah. Like, oh, this person's like just really susceptible to sort of being tricked and then like but also like really good like communicator or something. Or you might

also you might also like uh for for months ahead, you know, be dropping little hints here and there around town. You know, have somebody say, "I saw this weird light the other night." Or have this newspaper article, you know, that or or a horoscope that says, "Hey, you're going to see something in the sky." And like all these things that you could just plant, you know, psychologically to prime the the moment of astonishment. So when you hear of a story like you know Fatima you know Portugal like 1917 you know these three orphans get this sort of you know

prophecy that uh you know the Virgin Mary is going to come and then these lights in the sky appear among like 100 plus people or whatever do you does your mind immediately go to SCOP or does it go to maybe something happened or you just don't know? I don't always think SCOP. Yeah. I think that we sigh up ourselves sometimes, right? Using imagination and and what we want to see. Um, now again, I think everything can have a prosaic explanation. I don't believe that the prosaic explanation is

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, in some cases, I think it might be and in some cases I think it might not be. I think I think the prosaic explanation in some cases is just a flying saucer. Yeah. I think that's the you know I maybe it's not an angel you know because in that case that would be the prosaic explanation if you think it's an angel it's actually nuts and bolts it's less romantic it's not that you know um and so depending on your paradigm like that you know your your view of prosaic changes as well but um you know that specific case is really

interesting because there were so many and some witnesses were on camera saying what they saw so it does sound like an you know But there is a absolute difference between these prophetic messages from this uh from this lady this round whizzing rainbow colored object darting around the sky and then eventually went back to the sun or whatever look looking like the sun. This

is two different things. Yeah. you know, I'm not seeing the same thing was, you know, if it was a lady darting around the sky like this, then I'd be like, "All right, that's, you know, kind of like the same thing here we're talking about." But it's not, you know, we're talking about some type of figure that came to these and now we're talking about this erratic physical object in the sky, right? Are they correlated perhaps? you know, and like maybe this is like a bledo thing where, you know, there was some extraterrestrial stuff, then there was

like this prophetic imagery and this presence of a female um entity. I don't know, you know, I don't know. There's just not enough data there to really I would love to, you know, um interview some of those people, but even then, you know, memory is completely fallible and is the worst piece of evidence. it is the most compelling for me because I love hearing people's experience and I think you know looking them in the eye you can tell if someone's being truthful but what that truth is I think is

um you know as again as a magician our job is not only to fool you um using visual senses or auditory senses or touch or smell or anything but also we fool you using memory we engineer memory and that is a big that is a big sort of secret that most magicians, you know, they're they're I guess kind of aware of it. They just don't kind of give it any thought. But the engineering of memory is very important to an experience. And so what

a magician will do and again like it's it sounds like I'm talking about scop by the way and I want to preface that like it is almost one and the same thing but it's if if you were on a moral scale scop would be over here and a magic trick would be over here. So like we're using the same techniques that moment of astonishment you feel when seeing a magic trick if you were to put that on a negative scale that would be a scop. Right. [laughter] Right. So, we're using the same method, but we're using it for noble purposes of

entertainment only. For instance, as an example, uh, if I handed you something and say, uh, have a look at this. Have a look. It's very, very important that you have a look at that. Okay. All right. I'll take that back. Okay. So, here's what we'll do. Um, I want you to imagine this ring just kind of disappearing. Okay. All right. So, the ring's gone.

What's over here? [laughter] But yeah, um in in your mind as a spectator Uh this is very important, right? Cuz I said this is important. Hold this in your hand. It's important. You feel it in your hand, right? And then I kind of go and so and now I And so this moment is this is a false uh false transfer we call it, right? where it's like it looks like I'm bringing it over here, but it's still over here. But I've practiced actually give putting it in my hand a thousand times so that, you know, I can just get it to a point

where it looks like I I'm looks like I'm handling it, but but I'm not actually handling it, right? But that moment was so nothing. That was a nothing moment. This here, this is a nothing. You're not going to remember And I I deemphasized it in my head because you said, "Look at it. This is That's important." And then I put no emphasis on this. And I put all the emphasis here. Yeah. All the emphasis is over here. Right. None of it was on here on this Right. And if I did this and kept staring at this hand, you would you would be suspicious. So it's everything

leads you over here and this is nothing. And so later when you immediately recall what happened, this is a very basic simple example. I could give you a better example eventually, but just right now, if you were to recall, you know, what happened immediately to someone else, you would say, "I I saw the ring. I held the ring. I saw him put it in his hand, and when he opened his hand, it was And that's not what happened. Mhm. Mhm. Right. So, there's like there's like a small lapse in a small little detail

that you didn't pick up on is that he had it in one hand and he put it into his other hand. He didn't just take it back and it was gone, right? But that little moment, that non-moment is not going to be shelved by your brain. Your brain has other things to do. It's not going to start remembering all the useless [ __ ] Well, and it's sort of adaptive to like not be hypervigilant about those things. Yeah, cuz I told you we have like limited space or whatever. I think we have unlimited space, but you're trained to to to just not store. Yeah. Cuz you'd go insane,

you know, if you were to remember every mundane detail of your day. % and there's some autistic people that can and they they're almost insane. Yeah, there's like Yeah, like Kim Peakim the weather July 27th 1519 or what you know like friend of mine wrote up an algorithm for that by the way that I learned that I committed to memory. I don't do it anymore because you got to practice it. Yeah, there's a there's a there's an actual like algorithm you can go through in your head to figure out what day you were born. As a magician, he wrote a book on that, you know. So that's fascinating. Yeah. We're always using like these

interesting cases to try and figure out how to like turn it into a magic trick, right? It's just more methods. We love methods, psychology, slight, all this stuff. We love it. We collect it to create the illusion because the illusion is never one thing. It's a it's a it's a group of many things. And that's what makes a well-rounded or illusion is these, you know, this well-roundedness. So in this case, you're taking these two really important things, the emphasis of me here and the emphasis of you holding a physical object together.

Now it's impossible. Yeah. You know, and now you're in sleeves or it's this. So if I were to have rolled up my sleeves, you like whoa. And now you're kind of like, no answer. And so you're left, I guess it's impossible. I guess it's an anomaly. I guess it's UFOs. Right? So this is this is the same mindset that experiencers have um versus someone who sees a magic trick. It's the exact same thing that happens. Now this isn't to say that what experiencers are seeing or feeling or experiencing isn't real and it isn't to

say what they're saying happened didn't happen. I'm saying there is a lapse in memory in instantly after an experience. And an experiencer and someone seeing a magic trick is very very similar. When you see a magic trick and you want to explain what happened and magicians know this, we do this at gigs if we're performing. will stick around and we'll like just eaves drop on someone explaining to someone else what that magic trick what I just did and immediately they're saying something

so crazy so impossible like I'm literally Jesus now like and I'm doing these mirror I'm like I didn't do that crazy you know but I'm a legit I'm getting paid all right whatever but the truth is that they're embellishing for two reasons and none of which are like nefarious none of them are malicious or anything They're they're not they don't want to purposely deceive people or lie to people. But there's two reasons they do that. One is because they don't want you to think that they are dumb. They don't want you to think that you

didn't consider all the variables, right? So they'll invent variables because they know deep down that that was impossible. But even though they didn't check my they'll be like, "No, his sleeves were rolled up." That's fascinating because I want I want you to get to number two, but the amount of UFO experiencers I've heard actually downplay the experience. So like retrace the um you where there's like a public version and a private version where like the public version is like I saw a thing I don't know what it is. Could have been fake and then they say it in private and they're like it

answered all these questions for me. I was conflicted beforehand and it telepathically spoke to me. Couldn't say that part on air or whatever, you know. that's fascinating. Yeah. And there might be another reason for that too. There is the reason like people don't want to be judged. Sure. You know what I mean? So they will like Betty and Barney Hill for example telling the Air Force one story and then telling the psychologist another story. Same story different details. One of them was more numbers you know distance, size, speed and and the other one was more like no I felt this you know and so there is that too to consider but the

second reason would be um you want people to feel what you felt. M and that's a very human thing to want. We want to self-express, but that self-expression means we want people to experience what we're trying to express to them. And there's no way of actually doing that. And and and there's an even there's even less of a way of doing that if you just convey the data, right? So if I tell you, oh, he handed me a ring to look at. He took it back in

one hand and put it back and then put it in his other hand. and when his other hand opened it was gone. You would say, "Yeah, but it was in the other hand, right?" So now there's like now there's like it's too mundane. It's not magical and it doesn't convey what you felt when I made that ring disappear. Yeah. It's almost um honest on the details but more dishonest on your subjective experience. The details. And so by doing that because you want you don't want the other person to believe you. You want them to feel what

you felt. Yeah. And so sometimes we'll round off the edges. We'll erode the truth a little bit. Not enough for me to call you a liar, but enough to where if you were to put this on paper, it would actually matter. It would actually affect and skew the data. And we don't again, we do that subconsciously. Yes. And I see it all the time with magic. It's it's innocent with magic because it's like whatever. It's just a it's not as important as a as an experience. But yeah. Yeah. often like the Carl Young synchronicity thing is like it actually doesn't matter what the underlying event

is that much like it doesn't have to be some perfect synchronicity the meaning you place on it matters correct and so if you like place a specific meaning on this thing that leads you to this other thing and it's kind of you're being led to this like lower entropy you know like some destination that you're supposed to arrive at it feels like a teiology this meaningful direction then like that's all that matters and that actually it doesn't matter if you saw the flying sauce or didn't see the flying s that you know. Yeah. Cuz what you're trying to communicate isn't fact. What you're

trying to communicate is emotion. You're trying desperately to communicate your emotion by using words. And so, of course, things will be lost in translation because, you know, if you could if you could communicate something to them and put a little music on, you know what I mean? That would probably actually help you put them in in your position a little bit more and make them feel what you felt. Cuz that's what we're trying to do. Um, a lot of times when we experience things and when experiencers are saying what they felt, you hear the the sort of like the the fear and but

there are I know that there are details that they're unaware of and it's not because they're doing it on purpose, but it's human nature. And so, as a magician, I know that that's something I have to also observe, but I know that I also can't be completely contingent on that being the whole experience. It's like I I can't I can't, you know, discount what I'm hearing either. But you do have to, I think, practice a certain discernment when listening to stories like this. And it's the same when people tell me about a trick that a magician showed them, which always happens.

You're like, "Oh, I had this magician once. He did this, this, and this." I know exactly what trick they're referring to. Yeah. When they give me those details, right? And I So, I know I find it cool as a magician because I'm like, "Oh, he did a good job because this person clearly doesn't remember all the other things the magician did, right?" Um, so that memory had been successfully engineered and impregnated in this person's psyche. Um, but you sidestep the most trippy part of the question, which is that miracles, in your opinion, you've you've told this to me offline,

the second part, that miracles seem to happen more around Yes. magicians who if they're intellectually honest would not be self-described as Jesuslike characters would just be practitioners of things that are explainable in the materialist paradigm. Correct. But you were saying miracles occur more around these people. Yeah. And interesting enough that uh Russell Tar actually mentioned this too that like in his younger days he was a stage magician and would experience actual miracles

during those moments on stage. Russell Tar ran uh the CIA psychic spy program Stargate. He was one of the founders along with Halputo off. That's right. But magicians today, ironically, are the most disillusioned and disenchanted uh people because we're aware of methods because we're aware of how things function. Most magicians end up being like atheists or like like Pen and Teller famously who are good friends of uh The Amazing Randy. We're all atheists, you know, still are and a lot of magicians are and they take pride in

that, right? because it's like they have the answers now so there's no actual magic left and I was part of that for a long time too where I thought I knew everything and everything had a psychological you know explanation for it but then sometimes and I started noticing this miracles would happen okay if you know any magician out there if you're listening and you have a friend who's a magician or maybe an online magician that you know Just reach

out to them and ask them to tell you about a miracle that happened. I guarantee you they're going to go through about a dozen in their mind before they before they give you like an answer. And it'll be an impossible thing. You'll think that's there's no way that that happened. Um, so these things happen for I think multiple One, ironically, magicians are the closest to actual magic without realizing it. Like we are so close to real magic because every day

when we perform a we we play with odds. So if you think of random number generator right these are odds on this quantum field whatever these these possibilities we play with them. we have something magicians have something called outs. Okay. These are So if I go into a magic trick and I mess it up, you don't know [snorts] because I have an out and that out still gives you a

magical effect. So you're none the wiser. You think that was the trick all along that everything that happened, magician in trouble, uh was part of the act, right? And if I if I'm a good magician, I can make it look that way. And so it looks like I'm fumbled but I recovered. And you're like, "Oh, he just fumbled on purpose." that's a thing we do. sometimes we like to and I say we I speak for myself but I know other magicians do this too. We we we take chances we shouldn't be taking.

And sometimes sometimes for whatever we don't have an out for something and we go for it anyways. And it's it's I describe it as a stupid confidence. Mhm. It's a blind confidence that makes no sense. It's not a I hope this goes well. It's just do it. Like something comes over you and you just go with it and it's high stress environment. It's a lot of there's no out. So you know that

you know there's no out. Is there something you can think of now? How would what what is that? There's plenty. One really good example I was in Bermuda with some friends, magician friends of mine. We were at a bar. There's a group of people we were doing. We were kind of shuffling cards to each other. You know, people are like, "Oh my god, you guys magicians or whatever." So, started doing some magic to this group of people. So, this girl, I take her phone and I'm going to guess her pin code to her phone, right? Guess. So, at this point, uh, I have her phone on the bar. She, you know, she'd give me

her phone, I put on the bar, and I I already know her passcode at this point. I won't tell you how I know that, but I've figured out a way. It's wild. to have that piece of personal information without her So now as a magician my um presenting mind what what what makes a good magician is is using that information and um theatrically revealing it somehow to create the effect. Right? So I have

the information. I could just go punch it in and she go wow. And that'd be it. Right? Not a really great trick. I mean, it's great, but it's not, you know, could be better. So, presentation. So, I have this number. I put her phone down the bar. Now, at this point in my head, when I do these tricks, especially this one, I always look at the number and then I can cold read a little bit, right? So, you know, let's say it's um let's say it's like all ones, right? Um, I could I could for instance

say, "Oh, you you seem like a person who's like got a lot to do in a hurry and you need to get into your phone really fast. You probably text and drive as well, don't you?" So, I can deem all these things just from 1111. And also, like, if it was 99999, I know that you're probably left-handed, right? So, there's all these like little tells that you can get once you have the information. And like even if you're wrong, it's like you're like, "No, okay." You kind of play it off, whatever. It's cold reading. It doesn't matter, but it can add to the effect again. So, you know, you do this once

you have the information. You kind of play around with this and act sort of psychic or whatever. And she placed her phone down at the bar. Uh, it's four numbers. And I I do I really I do this for this specific reason. Sometimes I just add lib. I don't know where I'm going with this. And I'll just I'll just be like, "Let's try this." Because I know that if it does work, it'll be a freaking miracle. Yeah. And if it doesn't, then I'll just put the code in myself and it'll still that'll be my out and it's fine.

And so I go, "You're not going to open your phone." I stupid confidence. I said, "You're not going to open your phone. He is." And I point to the bartender. I said, "He's going to open your phone." And uh she's like, "No way." You know, and he's like, "All right, cool. I'm in." You know, and so I go, "All right. Uh, put in four random numbers. See if the phone opens." And he puts in four and it doesn't open. We call this an offbeat. I go, "That would have been a miracle." You know what I mean? And then everybody laughs like cuz they're like the the suspense was like, "Oh my god, is it?" And it doesn't work. I'm like, "Of course it doesn't work.

That'd be ludicrous to think that that would work." I'm like, "Maybe it has to be more of a personal number." So I said, "Um, put in your birthday." And he puts in his birthday and the phone opens. What? So now I gotta play it cool, right? Because I'm the magician and I made this happen. this was the trick all along for them, right? Uh but for me, I'm screaming like a little child on the inside cuz I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] this is a real miracle." And these people don't even know. Like they

know, but they don't know. And so instinctively because I knew what the numbers were. It was like um 0212 or something or something like that. It was like a birthday. Yeah. Yeah. And so been doing this long enough to recognize birthdays and I could, you know, I could tell her her star sign at this point. And I could like do all these different things cuz I have that information now. Um but I go but that's a 1 in 365 chance for no even more because I pointed to someone. Yeah. And there there are uh four four number you know permutations that don't

even involve. Yeah. It could have been this way too. It could have been month day or day Oh my god. Right. And it could have been six-digit passcode on his phone. So here's the thing. I said I said to her I go um I gave her her birthday. Mhm. And I said, 'You guys are born on the same day. And they're freaking out. And not only are they born on the same day, they both have a four code pass password. And they both use the same password on their phones. You were purely going on instinct. That's insane. Yeah. He also had that password on his That's wild.

Yeah. So I'm I'm here. If you could figure out hers, did you not figure out his and then line them So no, I didn't know what his I didn't You didn't You didn't speak to him at all. It was just like you brought him in at the end. The idea was if he got it wrong I would uh I would see what he's punching in. And I would know his birthday and I would know his star sign. So I would use that later on in something else. Interesting. That's funny. Yeah. I'm just I'm doing some recon stuff at the same time. I'm like attempt you would get third attempt because you

knew it. Yeah. Third attempt I would perhaps if I wanted to establish some connection and say, "Hey, I said you were going to open the phone. So here's what I want you to do. Maybe uh here hold my hand and I'm just going to try and channel something that's in your mind. And now I put the passcode in so it looks like I'm channeling it through him. You know, I could do that. I don't know. I'm thinking out loud right now. But like these are like options that I can always play with and variables that I can manipulate to make the effect seem bigger than it actually is. And that's the magician's job of being an entertainer. I want to I want to

entertain these people. Um, so doing this where he punches his birthday in and they and it opens and that's also the passcode to his phone and like now there's this like weird Now there is the birthday paradox. I don't know if you're aware of this but like in a room of 25 people two people will share the same birthday. it's a mathematical paradox. Is that a paradox or is that just a paradox? Yeah. It makes no sense that it's a likelihood. one one in 25 would not

I think it's one in 25. Let me be sure before I Why is that a parad? Why is that uh more likely than not? That's the wise paradox. But how can you even study? Like how could how could one know that like they just randomly sampled a bunch of rooms or something a bunch of times? Like I would guess. Yeah. Um trying to bring it up right now in chat GPT to make sure I'm saying what's correct here. Birthday paradox refers to the surprising probability Oh, here here it is. that in a group of just 23 people, there's a 50%

chance that at least two of them share the same birthday. This counterintuitive result comes from the probab comes from probability theory and the way that combinations work. Mhm. So it is expected through some through probability theory. Yes, through probability theory. It seems beyond chance. Yes, it seems beyond chance. Correct. So with 57 people, there's a 99% match. Right. So there is that to factor in as But then you have to factor in that I pointed to this guy, but then I pointed

to him. I didn't ask who shares the same birthday here. No. You know, so there's all these extra uh things and that a lot of times what'll happen is people don't realize the miracles because the magician and I can't say I had no idea this guy would have the same birthday because now I don't look like a magician anymore. So I have to play it cool. And magicians have those stories. So many of them. every one of them. Ask a really interesting thing. Ask any magician you know to tell you an actual miracle and he will tell you a miracle.

And the chances are that the conditions are similar. So I've surveyed probably a hundred magicians. I have all their answers. I've written them all down. It's really interesting. And the and I also asked them like what um what are the conditions? So what time what uh point of the performance did this happen? um were were you uh did you have an and did you build rapport with these And a lot of times is the condition is

uh later when you're feeling in the zone kind of like tuned in almost where nothing can go wrong. You feel like you're walking on water. You're flowing. Yeah. Exactly. You're in a flow state. Uh two is there is no out. There can be an out, but the out's not going to be Yeah. you know that like it's not a decent out. It's almost like with um sigh or remote viewing like the survival instinct. It's like you don't really have a backup. There's no plan B. You and you have to stupidly stupid

confidence like something has to come over you. and you just go with it knowing that you feel this confidence and this like flow and nothing can go wrong and everything's going to go right. You know if you have a doubt it's probably you're going to have to jump back to some weird out. Mhm. But if there's no doubt, you just do it and it work like that's where it works. And so like the Yeah. The third part is that um this rapport. So a lot of times I mean I've done this trick probably. I have a I'll I'll show you a trick after.

I don't want to spoil it. But I'll show you a trick. And can we do it on air? Yeah, we could do it on air. We don't have to do it now. We could do it at the end if you want. Why don't we do it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, given all of this amazing experience that you have, um, what do you think is, you don't have to call anybody out, but they're obvious, obviously UFOs are are sort of, you know, full of scops everywhere. Do you think there is one or two in particular as far as the emphasis like your, you

know, your example of the the ring where it's like, I'm not really thinking about the transfer of the ring from one hand to the other. I'm I had been focused on it when he told me to focus on it. Is there something like that with UFOs where it's like focus on the tip of the iceberg when the tip of the iceberg looks nothing like the rest of the iceberg where there's some redirect or shift in attention? Um yeah, by whom are you I don't know. I'm asking you like do do you have an intuitive sense that there's

um a deliberate attempt to shift attention in any directions? again uh not not not going after anybody in particular but like just narrative wise and if not no worries you know no I I 100% think it's a possibility the problem with this type of illusion or scop or whatever you want to call it is that there's no way of proving or disproving unless you have somebody actually say it and even then you don't

know if that's just part of the Yep. So just much like a magic trick, I don't know the outcome. So I can't tell you if it's deliberate. Yeah. But you're more likely than the average person to see a magic trick and be like, "Oh, I see what he did. He like emphasized this thing and he didn't this because of pattern recognition and and and understanding uh the trick." Um but that's not to say that I can't be fooled. Yeah. you know, as a magician, I'm I'm still capable of being fooled because I still abide by the same sense

as everyone else does. And those senses can be manipulated. And if you're performing to a magician, you do certain things that the magician would expect you to do. So, you counter that, you know. So, if I do a trick and I'm wearing a thumb tip, you know, like a fake thumb and I'm doing some slight of hand, a less knowledgeable magician or maybe even a more knowledgeable might think that the thumb tip has something to do with the method, but I

can use it as a red herring to throw you off the scent. Have you spotted anything like this in UFO world? So, yeah. Yes, but I can't be sure because I don't know what the outcome is. Yep. Anything you know again maybe speaking in uh at whatever level of granularity you feel comfortable with. Do you can you talk about like how you spotted you know anything in particular? I mean a lot of it is um I would say the the the the things that come to mind to me are when people talk

their experiences. Mhm. I think for me it raises a lot of red flags in the words they choose to use and also the frequency at which the this story has been told and how it's been molded over time. And people get that. People in you followed you pick that up too. They're very smart. You know, they watch all these videos and they go, "Oh, that he didn't say that before." And that's correct. And so like those things, I think, have to be noted. But also noted should be if you never change your story at all. Are you cognizant now that people are aware of

you changing your story might make you look like you're not telling the truth? So you're purposely not changing the story. Like these are and again it's impossible to prove. Totally. You could see somebody getting a little detail wrong and being like I don't know if I got that right on the spot and then it's this game of telephone where you have to force fit like the next you know telling of that to like the version that you told the first time around or whatever. Yeah. And you're probably more likely like let's say let's take the Rua Zimbabwe uh experience for example. Those children all kind of drew similar

things but they were all different and the stories all varied slightly. I think for me that is more believable. Yeah. Of course than everyone telling the exact same story sounds like a script or you were brainwashed or something was orchestrated. Yeah. No, I because that's like any memory. Yeah. But you would say these kids stories doesn't line up so it's not true. intuitively. Yeah, sure. Right. But I think if you know how memory actually works, correct? You would say, "Oh, there is there's a there there's something that That that they're all talking about a

similar thing with their perspectives and their memories. I also think if to some extent, you know, seek and ye shall find like what you're open to in terms of, you know, your aperture like your your your what you see in the possibility space of what you can experience in life. If that in any way dictates what you actually do experience in like in life all uh magicians experiencing possibly more Then there's a weird way in which some people who are higher on the openness scale and they experience these things.

I think it's actually somewhat um blasze. It's like it's like this normal experience cuz like they live in this paradigm where like other beings exist or whatever and then you are sort of in certain cases like it's like go on this podcast or do a documentary or whatever and it's like say your thing and then they have to like be like okay like this is what happened and then the eyes were all buggy and blah blah blah and they have to like get into this character when in fact it was this like kind of hermetically sealed thing that's just like affected them a lot like on a per

but it was like deeply personal and I could see there being cognitive dissonance around around that where it's like well I have to like tell it in this way that's de facto an argument for the thing having happened when in fact like they experienced it and it's actually it felt very benal and a part of their life and maybe maybe bol is not the right word because it was like sort of mystical and sacred but like of course it would happen because they're open to it like that's that's their orientation.

I don't know. Yeah. I mean it's absolute possibility like I mean that's that's something again I just can't you can't disprove and you can't discount. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know knowing methodry doesn't mean that that method was inherently used. And that's what I keep coming back to is that like everything is possible as a magician. Everything is possible. Um but because I can give you an explanation for it that doesn't mean that that's what happened. Y and I think that's the difference

between like someone like James Randy and I Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like if or MC West just because you can't come up with an explanation does not mean it's always the explanation. And you can come up with an explanation. That's the other thing is like as a magician that's my job. I have to come up with a way that this works no matter what. Like when you watch, you know, certain magicians on television, most people aren't aware that there is a team of consultants that are like this brain trust of magicians that are gathered from the four corners of the

world to come up with the most impossible magic tricks um and work with the magician on camera to teach them or help them or guide them into creating the best possible illusion for the audience at home. And this goes back in time to every magician. Like we consult each other. We talk I go to magic conventions every year where there's thousands of magicians and we talk about secrets and we help each other with justifications and subtleties and all this stuff. So,

you know, I I I just think that like people just aren't aware of how much work goes into a lot of illusions. Like it's a stupid amount of work and a stupid amount of information that we have to like retain in order to create these illusions. But it's not You can do anything. You can you can look at Copfield. You walk through the wall of China. You can make the Statue of Liberty disappear. You know what I mean? You you can do but that that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually made the Statue of

Liberty disappear. It means that that's what it looked like. He made He made it look exactly the same way. I can make it look like I'm psychic. Yep. You know, I can convince someone that I'm psychic. That doesn't make me right? And it doesn't make uh Joseph McMongle a magician. Correct. You know. Yes. And so it's this Yeah. It's just It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating learning from you and talking to you about like some of these tricks where I'm like, if I were to see them, I'd be like, how could you ever orchestrate them? And obviously I would know on some level that they were fake, but like this is, you know, let's try let's try

something here. Okay, let's do it. You have a six-digit passcode or a fourdigit passcode? Any random six in. Okay. And I should remember which No, just just random. Yeah. Random Again, that would have been a miracle. That would have been insane, End of the episode. I would have been like, "You're welcome." Right. As just screaming on the inside. I would have cut everything else and

that would have just, you know, YouTube Let's put in your passcode. I'll put it this way so nobody sees it. See if that Think of someone close to you. Month, day, and year. Their birthday. Who are you thinking of?

Can you say it? Uh, my dad. put his birthday in. How the [ __ ] did you do that? I didn't do it. You did it. [laughter] That's insane. But how would you change it live? It doesn't make any sense. It was your You

can't change your [ __ ] thing live. so what are you What are you thinking about right now? Methods. What's the method you're going with? I mean, it's got to be You've got to be able to change it live. Okay. And even so, oh, you mean change it after I found out that that you were thinking of your dad. But I already had my phone out before I asked you to think of someone. I know. So, like, how would you do that? That maybe that's impossible. But then how would you then you'd have to like

suggest you'd have to like use suggestion to like get me to pick my dad and then somehow have to know his birthday which is that doesn't make Yeah. This is really hard. Can you just tell me now? Is is that is this one of the times where you didn't have an out and you just went for it and like we could have cut this if like you you had failed. Okay. So you you knew what you were doing. But you see how that can look that way? Totally. Yeah. Know I can't figure I need I need to I'm going to think about this a lot. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Someone someone with uh lower

moral standards might tell you that that was actually That's the ethical line that magicians have to walk. And that some magicians, and I won't say choose to ignore. That's whack. Yeah. It is super whack. Yeah. Yeah. But I love it in the context of And I will always let you know like a magician is the most honest profession. Because they promise they're going to lie and then they do.

Can you say how you did it or no? No, of course. I did it very well. I'm going to be thinking about this a I'm really curious. I This is so You know, it's Yeah. Think of your passcode. I already know a lot of information about you. So, you know, they could think at home that I might might have seen you put your passcode in or something, and that might be true. But, you know, you're definitely someone

who is on the go a lot. You're definitely someone who um maybe is on their phone when they shouldn't be. Mhm. Oh, for sure. Yeah. All the time. Um you got to get into your phone pretty quick. You're pretty jet set guy. So, we're not talking about a very complicated phone password. You're also right-handed. Mhm. I can tell here. So, my guess is that it's happening.

We release this [ __ ] I hope it's not your pin code to your to your bank as well. That's nuts, dude. You just cold read me. You would like ping off my like registering of what you're saying or I just made it look that way, dude. Dude, that's magic. That's really great. Once once you already have the information, you can do all the performative [ __ ] stuff you want. [laughter] But it doesn't make it less interesting. I you'd be a good spy man. Yeah. John Mhalland. Yeah. Yeah. CIA trainer.

Train the CIA and deceptive practices and subtrauge in the 50s. Wrote a manual on it. John D. The magician in Queen Elizabeth's court. and he was, you know, a magician, but also he would sort of he'd blur the lines and say he was communicating with angels through like an, you know, magic. Who knows, you know? Where do you tow the line? I mean, there's religious figures in history that have done magic tricks, too. Totally. Well, you know, there's this philosopher Rene Gerard who's this, you know, French anthropologist at Stanford,

and he's sort of this kind of somewhat heretical figure, but he had a cult-like following. And he would talk about kind of pagan scapegoating cycles of these kind of magical figures, these figures who would they would sort of use magic. And so because of that, because of their like use of like the seemingly paranormal um you know, society would have ailments and they would blame it on these scapegoats because they seemed sort of like larger than life or whatever and they sort of come down on them and and then uh they would blame them for everything, kill them in

these sort of scapegoating rituals and then uh anoint them as gods. M but often uh Gerard would talk about them sort of developing real magical powers once the the kind of uh closes in on them and says oh you know this is real they start to like use real magic to like defend themselves and it becomes this like crazy mythology like right before they die and so like maybe in the beginning it is trickery. And that's what it's this like really you know um super weird blurred lines

sort of analysis of the thing. Correct. Yeah. And Gerard himself is like this character who's like there's clearly something esoteric and interesting going on but he's also you know this like anthropologist that seemingly explains on the like outer layer. He explains uh the religious through this sort of just you know anthropological purely human you know lens. And that might have even happened here on like a micro scale where, you know, although the information that I had, you know, I obtained in some in some way or I knew

what you were going to say because of something that I had preempted or whatever that is, whatever that might be. Um, your password is also closely related to your father's birthday. Yeah, I know that's I thought of that, I thought of that, but that wasn't why I did it. No, I know. Okay. But that's again, maybe that's the real Right. Yeah. That there's some sort of like tie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fascinating. Well, I also I think of like, you know, the word AAM's razor.

So, it's like this is, you know, it's like uh or sorry, term, you know, where it's like uh the shortest path or the simplest explanation is correct. Um and like this is something MC West or like any of the James Randy any of these debunkers would use. Mhm. But if you actually look at the etmology of the word, it came from this guy William of Acham who is this Christian monk from the 13th century. And for him it was the least number of entities responsible for a thing is probably the the answer. Oh, right. So like like like like a

lowest common denomination in terms of the least coordination or whatever. And and often that meant like a miracle happens. It's God cuz it's like the least number of entities. the one the one um and and and now I think cuz we're swimming in this sort of skeptical epistemological soup of like the age of disenchantment you see something you say Aam's razor and like the connotation of AAM's razor is that has to be some Rube Goldberg

machine where we there is some causal chain we just don't see it yet yeah and that's that line that I want to remain open to as a magician who is aware of a thousand methods, you know, um I don't want to let that get in the way of learning if there if there isn't another method. Um because it if you look at even if I look at my own personal experience, I can definitely see that being the case. Um sure, there's an explanation for all these unexplainable things that have

happened to me, these synchronicities and these birthday paradoxes and whatnot. There are explanations for them, but that doesn't mean that that is the reason. Well, let's Okay, this is a great great segue into this question, which is what is something you've been doing this for over a year now, and I'm sure you've gone into a lot of things thinking this is insane, you know, if true. Like, you know, you just did this amazing piece on the LERA files, these, you know, documents uh from from Sweden about these like reptilians or whatever.

And like that's among the more out there things that you've covered, but you've covered everything from that to like, you know, definitely real historical corroborated stuff with Danny Shehan. You've had Lu Alzando on. What's the thing that you went into where you're like, I know this is or I'm pretty sure this is fake, but it's going to be interesting. Yeah. And then you got kind of opted a little by it and you're like, "Oh my god, I think this is real." And I think there's like actually a lot true to it. two things specifically, the 4chan

um and the ebo biologist. Those two corroborate each other first of all, which obviously you could just chalk up to one of them read one of the files and based it on the other, Um they were the thing is that both of these were created after AI had already been I say AI after these GPT models have already been slightly developed. So there is, you know, a chance that they were used in the process. Now, after feeding those into AI, um, it doesn't

really tell you that it's made by AI, but, you know, who knows? Um, and having experts read, especially the microbiology stuff that I, you know, I'm just not educated enough to understand a lot of that stuff. Uh, they seem to think that this person is definitely like doctorate level microbiology. but also, you know, potentially a great larper, a great storyteller, a great, you know, creative fictional writer at the same time.

should we set both up real quick for the audience? Yeah. So, the 4chan whistleblower uh right after I think this was 20 early 2023. Could have been early 2023 or early 20 No, it was definitely early 2023. was be it was after was it after or before David uh David Grush? I think it might have been before. And then the microbiologist might have been after. I think I might be getting that mixed up. But anyways, I think the microbiologist was after

correct. Yeah. So, the 4chan whistleblower reported that he'd been working on these crash retrievals for like a for a decade or whatever it was uh in the early 2000s, late 90s, and that his job was to they were monitoring these underground or underwater what they called mobile construction units, these massive, you know, uh submerged UAPs that didn't have lights that were shaped like giant burgers apparently. and that they were on the ocean floor and essentially

building to spec to specifications to exact specifications these UAP sh and sending them out of the water to destinations unknown. A lot of that is usually where strife happens or you know maybe like a secret nuclear dance between a couple countries or or maybe even resource collection whatever that is. and it would like and they would always come back. These UAP would always come back into this MCU. And his job was he said there was four

units deployed for these crash retrievals. And he said first of all the crashes he's like they happened more often than people think. He's like these beings are not perfect. They are Um and so now he's like we see he's like we see a lot less bodies in these crafts. They're and he's he thinks partially the reason for that is because we recovered the bodies and they didn't like that. So they started developing like these AI sort of ships that would fly around instead. Anyways,

to spec. Wow. for that, you know. So, they would strip that out and then team three and four would he said like all likelihood just uh remove the bulk of the craft, take it apart or whatever that is. So, that was kind of his job and then he would like speculate on what the higherups would tell him, what he heard and how the new management came in and they've kind of shut everybody up and you know, you can't talk about certain things and just so this took me four hours to read through. Um, so like I did on four different videos because it was

this 4chan exchange which we all know is a cesspool trying to like read through 4chan is is literal schizophrenia. It doesn't it's not good for your health. You [laughter] know what I mean? You're going to find a lot of garbage there. Um, and so it doesn't help. But if you were to want to become a whistleblower without going through direct channels, because obviously, you know, a lot of people might argue that these aren't actual whistleblowers if they're not saying everything. You know, they're just kind of being told what they're allowed to

say. Well, this guy's like, I'm going to say everything. And he's like, I'm just going to do it on here and this is going to go nuts and it's unfiltered. And the things that he was saying were so interesting and kind of lined up with UFO lore and at other points really created new things within, you know, this these this this landscape. And towards the end, he said something that really resonated and kind of haunts me to this day. He said, "Notice yourself

coming back." He's like, "I'm not here to convince you of anything, but notice yourself coming back to this as more information unfolds." It's exactly what I've been doing. I've been going back to it over and over and over and over. When Lou mentioned the giant underwater thing moving at, you know, 500 knots underwater, that's something this guy talked about. He said these things would move underwater like crazy, he said when uh, they would they would be evasive and they would just take like leave. Um, if cornered, it didn't end well. Mhm. like you'd get vaporized.

He's like, "It would [ __ ] on anything electronic in the vicinity." He's like, "We've tried to um we've sent nukes after it like on submarines. We've sent jets. We've scrambled like boats. Like none of them come back. Um if the intent is, you know, um any anything malicious, like you'll just get Um and he said, you know, the questions were really interesting because like the audience, like the people asking question, it was like a Q&A. and they would ask like um do they ever come from

space? And he's like no rarely. He's like we'd rarely see anything come in from orbit. Um these things mostly left the water and like zoomed out to wherever it it was going and would come right back. And that's why you also assume that there was probably multiple of these things because if we're seeing them on the east coast, this one was situated in the Bahamas, that sort of Bermuda Triangle area which also hot spot, Yeah. and their weapons training facilities where there like underwater cables that people don't know where they're going. It's called, you know, Ach is this spot at

Would make sense. And it would make sense that it's mobile, too. Oh, totally. Um and so the these ships would often come back and so they're thinking like this guy thought he was kind of putting together while he was he's like, "Oh, yeah." He's like, "It kind of does make sense that he was never told about more of them, but he's like it wouldn't make sense that there are more because if people seeing them on the East Coast, they probably have something on the East Coast or up in the Atlantic or in the Indian Ocean." What about Trump's speech where he says, you know, talking about the Jersey drones, he said, "These are coming out of the water. We know where the garage is." Or he didn't say they're

coming out of the water. He says, "This it's very strange. We know where the garage is. We go into the garage if we wanted." And then you have the sheriff reporting that they were coming out of the water. And what a perfect place to hide. On the ocean, you know, on the ocean floor. Also the office of naval intelligence is uh what created you know that wrote up these reports. Tim Galedet talks a lot about you know some interesting usos you know identified submersible objects. There's an interesting book by a guy named John Pina Craraven where he talks

about uh underwater uh tech retrievals of secret technology made by submarines and there all these lost submarines like the USS Connecticut where it's like we don't really know what happened. M feels like most of the details are still Um so yeah, look, if and then and then he talks about the shape of the crafts that are being expulsed from this like this mother ship, this mobile construction unit and how they didn't have any features. A lot of them were like the spherical ones. He's

like are like drones. They're not manned at all. Um and those are like more for scanning. And he would go like if you see an orange light, it's they're scanning for minerals or biologics. And if if the orange light comes up to you, there's a likelihood that you've you're going to be abducted or you've been abducted. Um, you know, and they had all he had all these like different codes and these different like you get really into detail about like what they think and um what he thinks they're here for. yeah, go for it. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that for me was the most interesting. It's like, okay,

well, what's the why? And he said the higherups seem to think one of two things. He's like, they first of all, they're pretty much all in agreement that they just don't care about us. Like, they just don't care. They don't care. It's more like a zoo where they're not going to be bothered by the day-to-day of the animals in the zoo, but if one of them breaks loose or like, you know, starts using something to like harm the zookeepers or anything else, like they they just have to keep it in check, but they don't care what happens in the enclosure. Like, you guys do

whatever you want. We don't care. So it's more like that is their attitude towards it and they said that could be one of two reasons. either one, they're kind of waiting for us to, you know, hit this higher, you know, ascension, whatever, and then and we become enlightened, or two, they're kind of here until something else gets here and keeping this place around until whoever owns the planet comes to pick it up, which I thought was like a

weirder weirder theory, dude. There just like kind of Yeah. Yeah. kind of like these pods that are placed on all the planet as like it seems like an AI security system. And that even the biologics And you look at tons of accounts of these grays cuz that's what he said. They were these grays um seem to be these biological drones. And so part of the AI system being, you I think that's why David Grush uses the

term biologics. It's aptly vague. Yeah. Yeah, they're like almost They are. And it seems like they just kind of do execute these sort of low-level tasks or whatever. And often they're around preservation. So, it's like genetic sampling or gameamt collection or whatever. And it makes sense you'd send your like AI homeostasis global, you know, maintenance kit right out. You wouldn't like send your and answers all the like honestly dumb first order questions of like why do they crash and what but they

would just they get seen but they don't care they don't give a [ __ ] Yeah, they don't. If you go to like the zoo and you're you know you're you're uh you know looking at silverback gorillas in Arwanda or whatever. Do you care if you get seen? Like you probably probably on some level like you're wearing camo so like it it would be ephemeral from their perspective but they also would like occasionally see We dress up like pandas. Yeah, we dress Yeah. Right. to go into the panda enclosure. Panda's like a weird looking panda. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite a panda. Kind of looks like us and it's feeding us and it's studying us. Weird, you know.

So, it's like the gray thing where it's like, yeah, we like did our best, but like whatever, you know? You just got to like execute the task. Yeah. That seems to be what it is like this, like you said, like this maintenance sort of um Yeah. sort of. And they're so much more powerful that it doesn't really m like if one of them goes down, it's like you lost your dispensable thing like whatever, you They don't like it. I think I think they're like gh that sucks. But I don't think it's really the end of the world to them. They're just kind of like doing their job again. And like if you were some like intergalactic billionaire,

let's say that like megalomaniac that wanted to like seed life across the universe, let's say Elon Musk in the 2 million. Yeah. Right. Like you would have resources across the universe doing things like this. You wouldn't yourself go see what's going on. And there's something really disturbing about that to me. And it's kind of like what disturbed me with like Fire in the Sky, the first movie I've ever seen about aliens when I was like nine years old. Not a movie you should watch when you're nine, by the way. Do not show your kids Fire in the Sky. But, you know, the the

the most disturbing thing to me was that they wouldn't allow us to know what was going on. They wouldn't they wouldn't they wouldn't share their culture with us. They weren't we weren't allowed to know. So, this is Travis Walton. He's in Arizona. Yeah. He gets abducted. Yeah. National Park, right? Yeah. But in the movie, they played it out so so differently. But these beings that were sort of uh performing this procedure on him, ignored his screams, didn't care about any any of his

well-being and just did the tasks and sort of perhaps communicated among themselves and like but they wouldn't allow us to see or hear or understand what they're doing. Yeah. And that really frightened me where I was like, how dare you like not tell us what you're up to, you know, if you're going to do this to us. Like there's something really that didn't sit well with me. Is that part of your mission now to figure out what they're up to? Cuz I feel like a lot of your the uh vector along which you are making progress is like what do they want? What's the what's the sort of culture on

the other side of the kind of non-human intelligence? How do they think of us? Yeah, that's and and it might be a multifaceted answer that I'm not ready for, but I do believe that like I I'm super curious about that stuff. And when I and when I think of these um like these aliens right now that we're encountering and if this is the case that this is all they're all just like these grays are just a part of this maintenance system that was like placed throughout the universe. You know, to think that like some of us

might accidentally through some happen stance or encounter chance or whatever be quote unquote lucky or unlucky enough to meet the worker be. That's it. That's as far as that goes. Not meeting the next one or the next one or the we some of us may by chance through accident get to meet the lowest form. Yeah. of their like they don't like kind of this robotic whatever and

we're like oh my it's God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like the worker be. Can can I flip the frame a bit on your frustration because like you think of all the people who are traumatized just by meeting the worker be that maybe it's pretty adaptive. Like think about all of you know you need to get often these people get sort of hypnotic regressions and then they go through you know sometimes therapy and like it's it's analogous to experiencing any other traumatic experience. If you

were mugged and beat up ruthlessly on the street, it would be similar sort of shards compartmentalization sort of, you know, um, repressed aspects of, it's very similar. And so from a cognitive psychology perspective and so if you are the ultimate being, maybe you're you're way like think about the movie arrival, right? Like the like seephalopods or whatever, like if you actually experience that in real life, I think a high percentage of people would go I do. Yeah. But also, it kind of like I do

think it supports the idea that they just don't care because if they did, they wouldn't make these things look so freaking ugly, dude. Right. They'd make them a little more Or or or familiar at least. Or maybe that's their attempt to making them familiar. So, imagine how ugly. Well, that's what I'm saying. [laughter] I don't I'm not I'm not They're like, "Oh, we made similar humans." You're like, "What is this little gray dude?" They're like, "It's a human." You're like, "That's not a Yeah. And for all we know like they're just good enough to like complete the

objective of like doing whatever they need and like they haven't like made the the upgrade or whatever or they don't care or they don't care. So and then yeah so if if that is the case then maybe they are sort of protecting us from like the fact that 99% of us you know if you look at uh Diana Pulka's description of St. Princess of Aisi encountering the the the Saraphim or whatever. Like any of these things, I think it would drive most people a little nuts, horrific. And you know, he has what she would now say is probably

like, you know, electromagnetic, you know, radiation or whatever. And like he but then the story that like never ends up getting told around this is like he dies from it a year later. And so in some ways, maybe you need to just see the worker be like maybe the worker be is like, you know, that that drives you crazy enough. Like I I don't know very many people who'd want to see a gray in their bedroom. Like that that's not something I want to see ever. Yeah. No, for sure. And but I also wonder like like all we're seeing is their scientists really or not even we're just

seeing like like the the the arms of their scientists. Like we're not even seeing we're not meeting their poets. The lab interns. Yeah. Exactly. We're not meeting their musicians. Yeah. If they if they have if they know what music is. We're we get to see their scientists. Well, what a shitty first encounter. I don't want to send my scientists, Earth scientists, to be the first people to meet Yeah. a new civil civilization. Could you imagine? Could you imagine getting like scientists, putting them on like a UFO, sending them to another planet, being

like, "You guys are the ones that are going to establish first contact." And they're like socially awkward, uh, a little weird. They're like nervous and like they don't really know how to interact and how to like use the right words in a social situation. Like, I wouldn't like that. I would probably send over someone with more charisma, with maybe a philosopher, maybe someone, you know what I mean? So why send us the Well, maybe because they don't care. Either they don't care or Allah, the prime directive in Star Trek, they are

waiting for us to reach some sort of consciousness lness test. And once we've reached that threshold, we are worthy of, you know, real interaction. Yeah, that would makes that would make sense, too. And I hope that that's the case. I hope that it's this is just some type of like safeguard that's here to make sure we don't destroy ourselves because I think we do need that. And um you know I've always I've always been in I do too. I think if you actually viewed um us having a multipolar nuclear world through like a pure game theory probability lens

like I think the world may have already you know like I I I don't multiple times like and then I think if not it's probably going to end soon. If you just think we live in the a world without this other stuff. We wouldn't make it. No, we wouldn't. There's no way. I mean, there's no way. Do I mean, do you see I don't see us like dearming or deescalating on the nuclear. So, like and and then it's like arguably we're in a worse situation than the the Cold War now. Mhm. Um cuz it's it's it's it's more confusing visav you know um Russia and

and the UAP stuff and the UAP stuff the advanced technology and you know Yeah. And well, also just the weaponry that like everybody's like, you know, it's all like AI and warfare or whatever. And like, you know, like that's like a cold hard algorithm that then has to make the decision. And then there has to be some sort of human in the loop. But like the human is becoming paricetized and like demoted in that loop as far as the decision-m goes. And they have to be from a game theory lens. If like the adversary is using the AI thing, then you have to use the AI thing. And so it

doesn't feel like things are getting like more likely that we ascend through the the great filter and make it on the other side. If the great filter though is more consciousness-based, that I think gives us a little more hope from like a materialist lens. Yeah. I don't think we should be exploring other planets right now. She's totally Yeah. we should be focusing on this. The fact that we have a Goldilocks planet that's extremely you know you have the anthropic principle in physics like we we're so lucky like if plank's constant were like slightly deviated like we we

know we wouldn't have a habitable earth if if hydrogen and oxygen didn't form these perfect crystal lattice structures. Uh the more solid form of of water which is ice would be more dense and it' sink below and the earth would flood over. Like there are a million examples like that. And what a cry for help to want to live on such a shitty planet like Mars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's just gross. There's nothing good there. You know, I don't I don't see the I don't see the allure if we can't when we have fjords and we have like, you know, vast valleys of like beautiful

life and we're and we'd rather see ourselves living in some weird, you know, artificial hut. That's a cry for Yeah. on a on a red baron de oxygenated radiated and we have like storms we have like interlockan in Switzerland and like and like shangry you have like you know like Tibet here and it's a cry for help but we got we got we have to go to Mars cuz we're going to save humanity if we go to if we just go to Mars we're good it's uh yeah no totally it feels like a

you know like a cynical uh almost like a distraction where it's like if you if you focus all your efforts towards something that's maybe sisophian but directs all of your attention and energy source something that's it's nominally then you forget about you know how how bad things are here or something I don't know I don't know what it is but if you actually think about it it's not it's completely illogical and I yeah that's it and that's why like I struggle a lot when I hear about these cases where uh these abductees get like

there there's a pattern with abductees uh you get taken out of your room or out of your head or whatever it is. You get brought in um they perform some type of examination or some type of um operation, whatever it is. Then they give you a tour of the ship. Then they send you imagery of the world completely being annihilated, these terrible, terrible images, and make you feel bad for what we're doing to the world. And then they put you back home. Yeah,

that is the protocol it seems like for for what they're doing. That's like, okay, we got to do this, then we leave them with this, and then that's like the protocol that they've been that's the directive that they're to like cuz maybe they're not in control. They're just like they're doing the thing. They're like, okay, now we got to give them the images and now we got to and give them the tour. Okay, the tour number and put them back in their bed. Everything should be good. And they found that like there's been no resistance there and like, okay, this is working. And they haven't really tweaked it. And so when that happens, I'm always like I'm always so skeptical because it's like, you know, you go to you go to Zimbabwe and and and you hit these kids,

these children, with these images of like technology is bad and we're blowing up the earth and like we're killing we're and we're like it's just the worst imagery ever and this is all your fault humans and like we're we're crying and we're so introspective and like we got to change and like nothing happens. Nothing freaking changes ever. Ever. if you're such an intelligent being, then you probably have the foresight to understand that we're not going to do like we're not going to do anything to change this world on our own that we

wouldn't have already done. If anything, it's it, you know, it's it's it's not getting that much better. We're, you know, we're we're we're killing more trees and we're polluting the oceans more than ever. And it's like it's not that isn't helping. Yeah. You have to know that being a smart superior, you know, entity, you have to know that telling us that we're being bad, doesn't help us with a solution. There needs to be intervention. There's a great book called The Inner Game of Tennis and it's all about like

if you like criticize a person over and over again for like making mistakes, it doesn't help them get better at tennis at all. You like just let them let them go. And like it's almost like this like how to coach without coaching at all. Sure. And um I'm skeptical as well. I think it's so Yeah, it's so easy. I mean, a lot of these things sort of echo this like Greta Van Thunberg, you know, like sort of like these solutions that are overly technocratic where it's a it is a hypnotic trick and and and look at the track record for

those people. The the all you're doing is end you're just going to end up creating people who are going to write a book and speak at UFO conventions. Totally. You're not creating like the next president or or creating like a world leader that's going to change anything. It's never that. It's never that. It's always utter trauma. All [laughter] all all utopian movements end in uh complete failure. And like there's a there's a there's a good book called Passport to Utopia, not to be confused with Passport to Meonia.

And it's all of these like utopian movements. And you think think about like the 20th century is the age of ideology. like this was like Hitler and Stalin and and Troskyism all these things where it's like it's too simple Marxism it's all too simple it's like if you just do these sort of technocratic um you know then then we're good we'll figure it out you know it's all good and um empirically all of those always fail and in fact if you look at their underlying roots

they're sort of maybe they're cultlike and hyper Christian in a way like They're actually like the more uh uh sort of religious than than you realize. And and so then you have to ask yourself So why are we being shown these things? I think Yeah. I think you have to be So then Yeah. Probably to manage us or something. Yeah. Or or to justify what they're doing to us. Yep. you know, if you're being um operated on or or being, you know,

things being shoved up your nostril and and whatnot, like all these horrific things. It's trauma and then you're like internally frustrated, afraid, fearful, resentful, spiteful to these beings and then they, you know, they implant these emotions in your mind and say, "No, you're the bad guy." Look what look what you're doing. and you start crying because you're like, "Oh, what are we doing?" And they go, "We're helping you." It's like, it's this negging process. It's probably like Charles Manson did to

the family. Yeah. We're helping. We're here to help you. And we're like, and now we're thankful to them for doing these procedures. And and I'm not saying that that is the thing. I'm saying that this is what it looks like to me after just reading a lot of these cases where you know I I use this example a lot but yeah if like you know my coffee cup started talking to me grew a mouth right now and two eyes and was like hey the earth is flat actually you know I would be inclined to believe it and I know that sounds absurd at first I checked myself into a

hospital but then once you know I confirmed that this is reality it it's basically it's basically telling me that on some level at least partially that my reality is a lie and it has shown me that so it has given me more truth. And so I would be inclined to believe And so if I was some type of light coming down from the sky and I spoke to you in your mind Yeah. and told you that I was God.

There is no reason you would believe it. In fact, not believe it. Not believe it. In fact, if you spoke against that light, they would kill you. That's the reality of the situation is that anyone who gets a message from these NHI has no reason to doubt the Because it's showing you something true. And so therefore, you automatically just believe it. The rest of it has to of course. Yeah. And and there's no reason. And I I'm saying that if I had an interaction where they spoke into my

head and told me some information, I would be I would be convinced that it's the truth, too. I'm not saying I'm immune to that. Like Yeah. Well, you have a great example of Christopher Columbus. You want to tell that story? Yeah. He was um uh this was I think in the Bahamas. Um but he showed up with his boat and there was like the was it the Bahamas? It was an island Indies. Yeah, one of those. And there was there was the native people that were there and his whole crew had been starving and they were thirsty and they

wanted, you know, they were dying of like all all these terrible things. And so they had asked the locals to provide them with food and water and the locals refused. And so they were trying to come up with a plan on how to how to get them to like feed, you know, the crew. And so, you know, Chris Columbus had said, "If you do not do what we ask, we will block out your son in 3 days time. You have 3 days." And so, 3 days later, sure enough, there was a solar eclipse. And so, him knowing

that there was a solar eclipse happening, you know, use that against the people as like kind of like a scop or whatever to, you know, feed his feed his crew. And they did that. So again, yeah, I mean Arthur C. Clark, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Y, you know, and so when you can present that, we have no reason not to believe that. Y, you know, so anybody who is above our level of intelligence sufficiently enough can claim to be God.

And probably does. Yeah. It's so fascinating. So given that and given I think that very healthy orientation towards this entire subject what you know from your year and a half of doing the show and I'm sure much you know longer than that of being sort of interested in this topic. How do you uh orient towards it? Like what's what's the prop because there's something around a lot of these you know experiencers where sometimes it feels like they're outsourcing their agency or it's like you know often it's just like

everything they told me is is is true. other times they feel sort of antagonized and like they they just want to be totally rid of it and like they take any of it, you know, like like like worthy of, you know, consideration. They they literally just want to like run away like compartmentalize or whatever. Is there some like healthy middle ground or like how how should one orient you know themselves towards the subject? Uh it's difficult to say because I'm not like I'm not someone who has been abducted, right? So I can't tell those people how to feel obviously. um they're you know they're

going through it. So uh and I've not you know been a part of military projects where I I know of legacy stuff you know so I the perspective that I have comes uniquely from my own you know personal experience but I tend to focus on story. I love story. I think story is the most beautiful thing that we can share. I think, you know, there's a reason we had bards back in the day because they had an important role. They had they had to

tell you story and I am fascinated by story. So when I look at these things, I try to look at it through a lens of story. And by story, I mean like there's an arc and there's a reason and there's a purpose and there's there's beauty and there's an artistic sort of natural flow, you know, in this. And so I I tend to look at it as story. And all these new components and these new cases and these new pieces of information are padding this universe building just much

like you would uh if you were building Star Wars or if you were, you know, building uh Interstellar. You need these universe building blocks to keep you enclosed in this fictional bubble. And so I'm not saying it's fiction, but I treat it as such until it's proven otherwise. And I think for me that sustains my uh creativity, my creative thinking, and my interest into the topic. Um if I were to look at

this practically, constantly in a skeptical manner, I think I would burn myself out and I probably would get a little cynical. And so I I try. That's what I'm feeling. totally burned out and cynical on all this Yeah. So, looking at it from like this beautiful storytelling lens with these storytelling elements and then integrating that into the content that I make and creating these whimsical worlds to take people out for a spin. I think there's no harm in that. And I

also think that, you know, the medium is the message to some extent where like if I can help, you know, if I can help tell a story, like like if you can't be better than everyone, be different type deal. So, you know, for me, I I I look at my role in all of this as someone who perhaps my lack of knowledge and experience can be made up for with my ability to tell story. I think you have a lot of knowledge, too. Thank you for saying that. But definitely a lot less than, you know,

than yourself or like Gerb or like any of the No, absolutely. Um, but I I admire that. But I think what I make up for is is this other this other uh sort of dimensionality. And in this space, you know, I often talk about entertainment as being like a good thing for euphology and some people believe the opposite. They say it ruins it. Yeah. But it it's tough, man, because the second you say it ruins it, you can't really decouple story from all

of this, right? Exactly. So, what's real? Yeah. What is Yeah. Yeah. It's It's just It's extremely hard with It goes back to the thing of like how do you know an electron exists? It's cuz it's like textbooks and it's been measured by people. By the way, for the record, I do believe electrons exist, [laughter] but I'm taking it on faith. And then you have all these other stories and it's like it's it extremely it comes down to your kind of political biases and your instincts and like you know you can you can lie and say that it's not but it's the basis of belief. Um Jake Barber said this in my interview with him is like

people don't really understand the basis of their beliefs. I think that's that's definitely true. I also think that you know relating it back to magic um there is something about the willing suspension of uh that enhances your experience and maybe your human experience here. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if you're able to have enough you know,

Exactly. To be able to successfully temporarily at least suspend your disbelief to a few of these stories. I think it will enhance your experience on Earth. It may not make it may not give you the definitive answers. But it will make the pursuit of those answers more joyful and meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's really important in this in this subject because if you're constantly just cynical or non-believing or or even the

other way just too believing and like get critical of other people saying what you're saying isn't real, I think you're missing out on like a whole world of discovery and beauty and whimsy that I think is really important. And I think that when you put yourself in that mind state, you tend to absorb more information. So, you know, I could I could, you know, spit facts at you all day, but by creating an environment that's more conducive to you wanting to be immersed there, you're going to absorb that information a lot more. You

know, we learn more things when we enjoy doing them. And and rather than going to school for something, just getting out there and doing it because you're passionate about it, you're going to learn more there. You know, so it's kind of the same. I treat it kind of in the same way. Let's have fun doing this. Yeah, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean you know we have to believe everything. The energy with which the content is transmitted is uh you can't decouple that from the content itself and people can say you could decouple it but I do think that's how ideas take hold. It's

not necessarily only the cont like we like to think that we are perfect measurement sensors of truth uh in some abstract sense and we take away like the energy surrounding it or the the medium or you know whatever and it goes into some like code compiler and that's just so not how we you know process anything. Yeah, of course. Watch a movie without a soundtrack and it won't be the same movie. It's the same script. No, it'll seem so much lamer and Yeah, it'll seem weird and empty and you won't retain most of it. You'll probably fall asleep. But like the soundtrack all of a sudden now immerses you and it

gives you a reason to care and puts you there and makes you feel like you're a part of it and because of that you're retaining the information as if you're the one actually experiencing it. Rather than hearing someone else's experience, you know, and that's a really important thing when you know uh when learning something. I think we learn things for the purpose of survival. And it's it's the reason why we're interested in a lot of drama. You know, you think about drama. Why do people like drama? Why do people like drama? Because people like putting themselves in other people's position so they might be able to uh through this connection learn a lesson that they

might not otherwise learn, right? So they're they're feeling it out. So what would I have done? You know, and now they don't have to actually do that terrible thing. It's why we watch these murder docks and these like serial killers. Why do we why are we obsessed? Because we like to put ourselves in those shoes. As sick as that sounds, we like to like just imagine it. It's like being a roller coaster, being close to death without dying and and learning from that. I think it's why these characters like, you know, Elon or Trump or even like Kanye right now is like saying everything you're not allowed. Like I'm, you know, I'm Jewish, so I'm nominally I'm supposed to be like, "This

guy sucks or whatever." Even though, you know, love his early music. Um, but like there's something weirdly like it's hard to look away while he's like self-imploding online. Yeah. Um, and it's something like, you know, we all walk around as, you know, it's like the Rouso's noble savage or whatever where it's like we have to repress constantly. Everybody represses. You know, Freud would say this, every everybody repress. And maybe Freud's specific idiosyncratic repressions were based on his own weird autobiography, but like, you know, often

it's it's we just do. And then you see somebody and they're so not they're just so like unconstrained. They're just so weird. They're like these uber menchy, you know, figures or whatever. And you know, again, it's a funny term. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in this context [laughter] of Kanye, not endorsing anything he's saying, but there's some weird like voyeristic like I I can't not see that like like and and this bizarre desire to like, you know, live vicariously through that for a lot of people. I think I would assume cuz like

of the amount of traction he gets online to this day. Yeah. You want to you want to learn a lesson without having to learn the lesson because that helps you survive. It helps you grow as a person. That's interesting. And so, you know, living through other people's experiences adds to our own of of, you know, what being here is collectively. We're kind of helping each other do that now with story. You know, and so if you can create really immersive stories, then you can help be that conduit for someone else to learn a lesson or to grow a little bit more in their own knowledge versus just

having them read text or, you know, saying something monotonously. you can you can create an environment where they're more conducive to learn something new. I love that, man. And it's so beautiful. I mean, it it really does speak to like why do certain ideas die on the vine and what why do others take hold? We think of, you know, ideas that make it into the modern zeitgeist, whether it's in science, politics, you know, uh, curriculum in school as being this like, oh, this this reached some like truthiness threshold. So, like it's now

in the textbook, it's now in the canon or whatever. And in fact, it's like history's told by the winners and like the winners like know how to tell their story extremely charismatically. And so, uh, yeah, it's a it's just a fascinating kind of new frame through which to And I think your, uh, show itself embodies this like just beautiful. I mean, you're like, you know, your your your set is like amazing. You know, you have like this skiff, uh, that looks like this sort of mid-century, you know, really cool kind of space age thing with like all these

knobs and toggles. your like wide shot is literally this overhead security camera and then you're wearing like the suspenders. You're like this like detective or whatever and it's this beautiful it's like two things. It like you're like in it and you're like wow this is real but then also you can kind of cover like really crazy stuff because you kind of have an out where you're like yeah I'm just wearing suspenders and I'm sitting in this fake skiff, you know, whatever. Yeah. And so it's both kind of, you know, plausible deniability for you and it's also like the most

immersive, beautiful experience for the viewer and uh yeah, I'm just I see that like, you know, going going to the moon as far as growth. I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. And thank you for taking notice. But yeah, just taking you out for a spin. That's the idea. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chris, this is an honor, man. Um, everybody go subscribe to Area 52. uh become a member on YouTube. Uh go to the Discord. You have really cool thoughtful uh you have the interns on Discord and uh you guys do kind of

reading groups together. Sometimes you have movie nights. Um so it's a a step-wise better experience in my opinion like than other just random kind of uh communities that don't really get thought about, you know, it's just kind of like a way to monetize. Not the case with you. Um you have a Patreon as well, right? Yeah, it's all it's all linked together. So Patreon and membership are the same thing kind They allow you uh all the top secret access to the secret section of the discord and all that stuff and all the cool stuff. But you know, essentially you could just join uh the discord for free if you just want to find like like a community. Uh we keep a

positive vibe there and an open mind. Um you know we we try to really keep it friendly uh without having you know too many politics involved like we're just there to share story and to like what Awesome man. Well maybe the whole world is a stage. We're just in it. Uh Chris, this is this is an honor, man. It was so fun. And uh uh yeah, I was I'm still trying to figure out how you I think I think maybe at least with my code. Yeah. That you uh shoulder surfed you or something. Yeah. Well, you know, I think you fit you felt the impacts of what cuz I I

clicked I clicked that in, right? Or maybe something around that. I don't know. [laughter] [gasps] You guys go figure it out. Awesome, man. Hey, dude. Appreciate it. Before we go, just a reminder that this episode was sponsored Surf Shark. Don't miss out on the extra four months at surfshark.com/ameanalchemy. Stay curious, stay safe, and I'll see you next time on American Alchemy. Dude, this isn't your show. They're

going to see me, not you. Stay tuned, stay curious, stay safe, and you'll see him next time on American