The Hacker That Found NASA’s Secret Space Fleet [Gary McKinnon Interview]

>> They wanted to put you in prison for 60 [music] years. So >> for 70 years. >> And I bought potassium chloride, and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. >> Oh my god. >> Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. The reason that you are here today on this show is because what you >> He found, he says, photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of something he called nontterrestrial >> I was in my dressing gown up till like 4

in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer. Right of my life really. The first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture and um so I double clicked this but it was very very slow. I was on a 56k dialup and uh I was just thinking my god this is my eureka moment. Then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing and I'm thinking that's a planet. >> What the hell? And then suddenly there's a big straight kind of silvery line,

cigar- shaped object. I see the mouse move and someone else is at the computer themselves. They right clicked, disconnect, and boom, that was it. I was cut out. >> What do you think photographed it? >> Very good question. This spreadsheet was titled non-terrestrial officers, so not on the Earth. And that was incredible. I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain

that immediately I just went in my left heel. There were two perfectly circular holes. Wa >> Explain what's going on quickly. >> I can't turn my [music] phone off. You can see my finger is on the power button and both This is like [snorts] a hard >> That's never happened before. >> Absolutely. It's never happened before. But you're with Gary McKinnon. >> How [music] is this possible?

>> Nothing too unusual about that. >> Their existence [music] cannot longer be denied. of Gary McKinnon, I want to shine a light on one thing his story reminds you of instantly, online privacy. Gary is a brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled off what the Pentagon called the biggest

military computer hack of all time. All from a bedroom in London. In this interview, Gary goes into extreme detail about what he found in some of the world's most sensitive files. And I still can't wrap my head around what you're about to hear. After hearing what he found, you might think he hit the ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot. However, the moment he went online, a digital trail started forming. Think about the moments most of us could get exposed. It won't look like Gary's story where he broke into sensitive government

systems, saw something truly unbelievable floating in space, and then had his access cut off midsession. For most of us, our risk exposure is usually much simpler, like joining hotel Wi-Fi, airport Wi-Fi, or even your office network. Going incognito doesn't hide your browser from the Wi-Fi owner, and your internet service provider can just log what you do online. That's why I use It encrypts and reroutes my traffic through secure servers and masks my IP.

I literally turn it on before doing sensitive research for the show. Like looking into whether mid-century scientist Thomas Towns and Brown cracked anti-gravity in the 1950s. That's exactly when I want my browsing to stay private. So, if you're like me and you like going down crazy rabbit holes, make sure your research isn't exposed on whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our sponsor ExpressVPN, you can now get up to four extra months of your ExpressVPN service by clicking the link in the description below at

again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today's historic episode. Because if Gary's story teaches us anything, it's that your online privacy matters. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment, and it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a

breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsen Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like? Your team before you had quo. This year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions. If you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six platforms, you

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this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free. Plus, get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to quo.com/jesse. That's quo.com/jessie. customers. Now, back to the show. This is such an honor. I am here with uh he's been at the top of my list of people I've wanted to interview for years now, and uh I'm so lucky to have this

opportunity through James Fox, the great documentarian, uh Gary McKinnon. >> Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I love your channel. Um I've been a longtime subscriber, so yeah, I really like a lot of the interviews you do, and I'm I'm glad to be here, too. Let's let's just go back to uh the early 2000s. Tell me the year and the day and and and tell me about your life at the time. And then I want to get into the actual, you know, event. >> Okay. Um I can't remember the day, but the year was 2000, early 2000. And um my

life pre to that I'd always had a deep interest in UFOs. Um mainly from my stepdad. Um he used to live in Faluk which is near Bonnybridge which is in Scotland and it's like a Scottish UFO hotspot. Had many many sightings almost like a tourist attraction. You know people go there to see UFOs and uh I had one sighting myself uh when I was about 12 and um I was looking out of my bedroom window and I saw this kind of reddish orange glowing light and it

was moving in an arc from there to the horizon and it was um but it was like brownie in motion. It wasn't a straight line. It was like wiggling around and I just thought, "What on earth is that?" Um, and I was also a member of Buhora at the time, the British UFO Research Yeah, I I was hooked from an early age. And so, I guess it only made sense that eventually I'd try and do something to further my own interest and find out more. Um, but unfortunately, it involved

in breaking the law. [laughter] So, sorry, Mom. So, so you already have an interest in UFOs. Had you seen a UFO or like, you >> just that one sighting? >> Just that one sighting. Okay. >> But I had my stepdad's stories. He'd seen them. Um his brother, my step uncle had seen them. >> Yeah. And and um and so you have this personal interest. And then do do you have like a hacking background or like do you have any sort of like cyber background? Are you really good with >> Um no hacking background. And I used it.

I was good with computers. I had a I started off an Atari games console in like 7879 and then eventually got the Atari computer, learned to program in basic at first and then machine code, assembler language. Uh moved up from that and um then eventually got jobs in computing, very low-level jobs to start off with, network installation, Windows um then did uh computer science degree

uh which I eventually failed because I spent too much time in the student bar. >> Um but yes so I eventually ended up contracting but at banks quite high level stuff but doing very basic sort of networking stuff >> so I had a good background in networking especially Windows knew how they communicated and some Linux stroke Unix Solaris stuff like that. So when I mean the internet came to Britain in 95 I think I first had the internet and

uh the first thing I searched for was UFOs and uh it was very popular loads of websites loads of information >> and um fast forward about five or six years I read the disclosure project book Steven Greer and his team >> and they told you installations locations and I thought I've got to have a look at this. I wanted it from the horse's mouth. I didn't want to just believe. I wanted to know. And so I thought I could use my basic networking skills just to do a scan, you know, a

light scan on American military networks, which which is mad now, but but back then it was just kind of like a playful idea. And um I wrote a Pearl script. Pearl is a program extraction reporting language, just a scripting language. And that I could run that across thousands of machines in minutes and find a blank passwords or passwords that were either blank or password admin a basic list. And um when you do like widescale

fishing like that, you do you know some fish bite. And that was my basic method to getting entrance to these places. >> And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank >> big time. That's crazy. I mean, >> it although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like the the government's way more incompetent than often, especially people in UFO world give them credit for it because we assume they have workable reverse

engineered crafts that they know how to use at will or what. So like what you of course would have password set up, but two 2000 is early internet. we were still worried about Y2K, you know, so like we didn't really understand how a lot of this stuff worked. It was this big experiment and so Wow. So that that sort of fishing thing came up with some some fish. >> And uh >> and as you say, the government really isn't tailored for this, especially the military. Um they don't well they didn't then employ specialized IT workers. They

trained up existing military employees in the you know basic techniques to run a network. There weren't advanced security aware guys running government networks or military networks. >> And are you So while you're doing this, are you just like sitting in a apartment or something? >> It's a bit embarrassing. Um my girlfriend and I at the time we were living in her auntie's house on the ground floor and um I was in my dressing gown up till like 4 in the morning smoking weed, drinking beer, just like

ride of my life really for you know youngish guy. I think I was 36 at the time. So yeah >> I uh you know I don't think that's um embarrassing for you. I think it's embarrassing for the the sites you hacked into. Um, okay. So, you're you're uh you're getting a little late night buzz and you're you know, you're at your your your girlfriend's aunt's house and you're just like, I want to find I want to know for myself what's going on in UFO World. You do this blank password search. You actually come up

with some results as far as sites that you can get into. Yeah. >> What do you look at first? >> Uh, well, the first thing I had to do was test my method. >> Mhm. So I did that on British sites and we're currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university. Um I had Cambridge's FTP server, file transfer protocol server and um Oxford as well and a couple of poly techchnics at the time which are now universities. And um I realized the technique worked. If you if you cast far enough a wide net, you

know, something's going to come in. And um then I thought, okay, let's go for the um the locations. And my list of locations all came from the Disclosure Project book. >> And also there was a I forget the title of it. There was like a hackers network document going around of a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. >> And I took some of the um names from there, but all that told you was the network names or the particular department of defense like sub department that that owned that

network. Um, so I used a site at the time which was called Nihei's IP index. And this guy had done some work. He'd used like domain search tools and built a huge list of who owns what subnets. So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script, and scan like a quarter of a million computers in 8 minutes. Typically 5% would respond. And then from that 5%, a further 5% would have blank passwords. >> Okay. Okay. You got it. So you do this

like narrowing process and you end up with what is it like 97 sites that you can get into or something like that. >> Yeah, that was the end result >> which is a lot of sites. >> And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with or program names people would be familiar with. >> Okay. The NSA I got into Fort ME >> DA Defense Information Systems Agency, DoD Networks, Basic Army Networks, Navy Networks, Yousef, US Air Force Networks. >> Okay. Wow. So yeah, those are some

pretty intense organizations that uh at the very least we know hold the keys to, you know, all sorts of, you know, military technology secrets that confer tactical advantage to the US, if not some of these deeper, you know, more interesting mysteries that, you know, you and I uh uh share an interest in. So what do you do next as far as your search and what do you find? >> Yeah. Okay. So I'm one guy. I've got potentially thousands of IPs to search the individual computers. Um, and once

you find a blank password, and these are Windows networks, um, you need to become, uh, the administrator, which is like, you know, the highest local Um, and eventually the domain administrator, which controls the entire Um, so once I was on one PC or a network, I then attack the domain server and get that password. And that's through dictionary attacks, password cracking. Um I actually used a tool called Loft Crack. I don't know if that's still around. And um once I'd

done that, it's a huge job for one person. Huge job. So I found a program called Land Search. This is all commercially offtheshelf available software. And what lens search enabled me to do was to type in a search term and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of which could be I think the largest I did was 5,000 at one time which took hours you know light. Um so yeah that's how I that was my system for

making it doable for one person and also it depends on your search terms. >> These files aren't going to be called UFO secrets. M >> um so I had to look for things like you know secret top secret um just anything just to and PDF PDF documents were particularly helpful. A lot of stuff was in PDF back back then and uh the redacting they did on PDFs back then was not fully redacted. You could unredact it once you downloaded the file to your own PC. So, it was a huge networkwide

document search and just grabbing what I could, spending hours getting it, and then spending hours reading it and trolling through it. >> Are you When you're spending hours reading it, is this like you backed this stuff up on a hard drive or is it just on your PC? >> Yeah. Downloaded to my PC. >> Okay. So, it's just on your PC. >> Wow. And so, so you're going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of, you know, we'll get to the the crazy kind of UFO related stuff that you found? Was there anything else that you

that you saw while while searching through these documents? >> I was looking for free energy as well. I never found anything to do with that. >> One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with Solar Warden. Solar Warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the above top secret forum. So there's no evidence for Solar Warden and I have nothing to do with it. Never heard of it apart from you know rumors pertaining to myself. >> Yeah. For the audience solar warden is has become associated with these sort of

secret space program Gaia you know people like Corey good you know that say that we have like a terrestrial you know we have like humans like in in like deep space right now and they engage in these like 20 years and back missions or whatever. And there's like a documentary on it and it's like the it's the worst documentary I think I've ever seen. >> I bet it is. >> You believe in a secret space program, but I don't believe Cory. Good. >> Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like Pizzagate and Epstein. It's you. The

best way to debunk the truth or to pre-immunize the population from ever actually looking into the truth is to uh uh kind of you know inoculate them, send out stuff that is directly adjacent to the truth and then ensure that that gets debunked because it's so primmaaccia >> Yeah. Standard intel technique. >> Yeah. So I Yeah. So the fact that there's some sort of Yeah. Standard intel techniques. So, the fact that um you know uh a blog an anonymous blog post and then you have all these people

kind of flooding the zone with secret space program stuff makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be that might be true that dovetales with what you did find. Anything else that you found that was interesting before the the crazy stuff? >> Um nothing to do with ET or anything like that, but it's very interesting what um on one site I found the jailer's file. Every military base has a jailer. >> And it's just crazy. You've got guys taking LSD that work on submarines. >> So, lots of interesting human stories,

you know, >> where they're taking LSD that work on >> Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, cuz the they're soldiers basically. >> Oh, I'm so I'm tripping now. And like, you know, they're dealing drugs like they've got Hell's Angels gangs bringing in the drugs. And so, that was interesting for human story. [laughter] It's nothing to do with what we're here to discuss today, but it's entertaining. >> Okay. That's fascinating. I thought I thought for a second you were talking about like MK Ultra mind control like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines and testing consciousness or Okay. So just you know recreational spice it up

down there. [laughter] >> Make the 9 to5 less boring. >> Yeah. And so you're systematically you're looking for UFOs, you're looking for free energy. Any other like you know kind of terms that are on your mind in going into this search? >> No, that was my main focus. And um with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What I was interested in was the energy and the propulsion. Aliens didn't excite me so much because I'm sure they exist because it's a huge universe. But I wanted something that could um that we could use, you know, as

people and I was convinced that it was secret technology, but they knew something about that the populace at large wasn't allowed to have access to. >> Yeah. Well, I think you were you were on to something maybe. But uh >> in Britain at the time, we had old age pensioners couldn't pay their fuel bills and energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free. >> And yeah, it was just too juicy not to have a go at finding >> Yeah. I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions. You know, if if you know

our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely disruptive. It just would. I think um it's a control mechanism isn't it as well just like water is starting to be food has been for a while. >> Yeah. Anything that's scarce and can be acred at the top I think is totally a control mechanism and >> anybody who doesn't think that you know um having access to a critical threshold

of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the last 70 years is nuts. Like I mean you see it with Maduro in Venezuela and then you know worries about what's going on in Iran visav that you know and so and like it's it's all you know very very you know obviously interconnected. I mean Desert Storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein in overtaking Kuwait controlled a fifth of the world's

oil supply and that was just >> Yeah. And one thing about Venezuela is it wasn't just um America's domestic supply. It was what foreign powers could get. China was about to do a deal with >> That's right. I think it would only amount to like 1 or 2% of China's imports, but it's still something. >> Yeah. Still something. They're sitting on a lot of oil there. And you see this like these crazy sort of game theory dynamics visa v China taking place with Greenland and other places. So it's it all cuts to these. And if you look at like why the US had to back down off

this recent, you know, trade agreement deal with with China and kind of concede some some things, it was due to rare earth refinement being basically a monopoly uh in China. And so, you know, these things are like very real things geopolitically. And so if I I I agree with you. I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government. You know, I' I'd like to know as well. >> Yeah. [laughter] And I even think there probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically. Like if you if you have

it where it's like it's some sort of carrot for like okay maybe you don't give it to like you know gross dictators or whatever but it's like a way to like incentivize reform or I don't know but like just keeping it to yourself that seems wrong maybe. >> Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. It's a real hard line to walk isn't it? How do you have that public for you but not public for other countries because you have spies and >> totally and there there are dual use implications for a lot of things. So like a good example would be you know uh

controlled fusion or whatever would you know is is the really positive you know use of of nuclear fusion which would allow for you know sort of free energy if you have over unity. Um, but then you fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb, right? And so so like you never know like if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world like you do have to like do some calculations. There's this guy Ashton Forbes online who I don't know if you're

familiar with him on the airplane >> talks about yeah MH370 the like these like orbs wrapping around the plane and then it zaps it and he's like sure that there's like free energy like you know being held by >> me the most fascinating thing about that was where's the provenence for that >> It's never been shown. >> It's never been Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But um Okay. So what do what do you find next? So, um, there was a a special witness for Steven Greer's disclosure project called Donna Hair,

and she said that when she worked, she was pretty hard. She was a a NAZA launch photographic specialist. I think she had secret clearance. Um, cuz she'd get, you know, very close-up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches and the launch platform, under the launch platform. and she said that she worked in uh building 8 of Johnson Space Center JSC and that her colleague who worked across the corridor and this is all something he shouldn't have done um cuz they

chatted you know had lunch together or whatever and he one day he just beckoned her across the corridor and said come and take a look at this and this is the days of analog photography and so he's got um you know big like contact sheets and slides and they used to be developed under red light and silver nitrate. And he said, "What do you think this is?" And there was a huge white disc on this satellite photo of the Earth. And she being a photographic expert herself said, "Oh, it's just a blob of

the emulsion, you know, the old cavical of the the sheets." >> And then he's grinning and he says, "Uh, dots on the emulsion don't leave round shadows on the ground." And there was a round shadow at the right angle, at the correct angle, the sun shining on the trees. I saw pine trees. I didn't see a coastline. I don't know where this was, but um I looked at him and I was pretty startled because I'd worked out there several years and never seen anything like this. Never heard of anything like this. And uh I said, "Is this a UFO?"

And he's smiling at me and he says, "I can't tell you that." So I said, 'What are you going to do with this information? And he said, 'Well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell them to the public. >> Because they sell on the imagery to like colleges, universities, you know, Earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. Um, so yeah, his job was to blot this stuff out and make sure it wouldn't get seen. And they didn't have Photoshop then, so I'm not sure. I think you know the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush

on the emulsion where they just blur things and uh you see lots of examples on this of like lunar photography from Clementine mission the lunar orbiter the LRO lunar recordings orbiter um so I read this story absolutely fascinated you here was this highly qualified woman she'd worked for a long time NASA and I think the air force previously to that [gasps] and um and did she say disc she said flying saucer. >> She then and she says so that shape, the circular shape. >> Yeah. And the shadow.

>> Okay. Wow. >> And um I was already in J Johnson Space Center at the time. >> So I thought building 8. Okay. I wonder if that's still running cuz she worked there and I think the late ' 80s or the early 90s. >> So you're in the Johnson Space Center files on your PC. You're going >> I was already there when I read this. >> Yeah. So I thought I've got to have a look. I've got to have a look. And I thought, how the hell do I find building 8? But luckily, Windows has um you can do network commands in a console rather

than a GUI with a mouse. And you can type it like net stat, network status, tells you all the people connected to the machine. And there's other commands NAZA are great auditors of their system. So they have these special commands for auditing where you see the machine, the PC, the number, the serial number, the date when it was last maintained, all stuff like that, and the building it's in. So I ran those commands that produced a list and I stripped out I

think it was about 1,500 machines or maybe 150 machines. But um once I stripped out the building eight machines, uh there was only like a dozen maybe. And uh I ran the blank password script on them and I think about half of them were accessible. And the first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture and it was strange. It was um I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users desktops are covered in stuff, short cards, emails, like

electronic post-it notes. And uh these were very bare desktops. All they had was like two folders, raw and process. and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. and so I thought, I've got to look at this. It's got to be images. It's where she said it was. It looks like images. It says RAW. It says processed. And, uh, I double clicked into the folders. And it's a proprietary NAZA image format that I can't run on my desk. Not a JPEG, not a PNG.

Um, so what I had to do was basically there was a what was it called? There was uh there was I I basically had to run Naza software. I had to double click it on the desktop cuz my hacking method although I'd get in there with a blank password which was CLI command line. Um once I was in there I was using remotely anywhere. I think it still exists. It's like PC anywhere. It's like you're sitting at the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen. And um so I

double clicked this but it was very very slow. I was on a 56k dialup which was um to give some idea of the speed it was if you download an MP3 music file now you've got it in a few seconds then it was 5 minutes per megabyte [laughter] >> and a song might be 3 megabytes and 15 minutes for one song and no one would even accept that now [snorts] >> so I double clicked this it was taking ages so I canceled it I turned down my remote graphical remote control thing

into like 8 bit color then four bit color eventually I think yeah I think four bit color or two bit color it was basically four or five different colors so it was a shitty image >> and um but it came on the screen like you know almost line by line I think a few lines at a time so it's coming in blocks and I'm looking and there's like blackness then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing I'm thinking that's a planet what the hell this could be what she said then the hemisphere comes into view and it's

just thinking my god this is my Eureka moment confirmed Donah's story not that Don hair story needs confirming um yeah and it got to I got the whole ship you know in view and then it started to go below that where I would see the rest of the the um the sphere of the earth I assume it was the earth and um it was just amazing the only man-made possibly man-made thing that was there was like geodisic domes like radar stations uh one on top below on both sides and I thought well that's strange

it's kind of man-made looking but not man-made looking and then I've got graphical remote control I see the mouse move someone else the person someone else is at the computer themselves and they're moving the mouse they right clicked on the local area network icon you know right next to your clock on the bottom right of your Windows taskbar disconnect act and boom, that was it. Come. I was cut out and I'm sitting there like waiting. >> Oh my god. >> Baited breath for my Eureka moment. Come on. Come on. Come on. >> Oh my god. Anything else on the cigar?

with, you know, yourself or through intermediaries with Donna Hair? >> Oh yeah. >> And did she say that's the disc that I saw? And I just because I think of disc with her and then cigar tic tac with >> Yeah. She saw that one photo I disc, but she also spoke to um >> Okay, so these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. >> Yeah. Even though it might be 10 or 20 years later, apparently this is still the place where there's images of, you

know, UFOs or exotic craft and they're being airbrushed out. It is proof that at least I mean it's really interesting that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point and she says you know this is where we process the images. I was shown this image building 8 Johnson Space Center. you independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson Space Center, look at building 8, and then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO hovering

above the Earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO, but it's, you know, >> it's definitely exotic. It's nothing, you know, it wasn't a rocket. It wasn't ISS. It wasn't like a space lab or >> Well, it doesn't sound like a satellite to me, a cigar like rotating around. >> There's no antenna either. There's nothing. No like telemetry or sensor looking stuff. >> That is wild. And I mean and then also now we have the uh lucky hindsight, you know, in in in 2026 of Commander David

Fraver's experience of 2004, just a few years later uh off the coast of San Diego where he sees a tic-tac object and they have, you know, apparently radar. We've seen the fleer imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone to see. The Pentagon has verified that that's real. >> All four of us, cuz we were in F-18F, so we had pilots and Wizo in the back seat, looked down a small saw white tic tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and

disappeared. Our wingmen roughly 8,000 ft above us lost contact also. >> And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot. You have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know, a whole lot. You have the obviously radar >> some guys on the ship. Exactly. >> So, are you the first like other I mean there I think I believe there's some other tic tac and cigar like there's you know I think flying there there are air force documents from the late 40s um that describe uh flying butane tanks. I

light it was. So I said I'll keep it and so I crunched it up and so I made this kind of movement you know to put it in my pocket and what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape. So I thought what is this? I was completely floored. >> Yeah. It sprung back into its original shape. And guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash? >> Right. So >> cigar tic tac. Yeah. So

>> yeah, lots of synchronicities there. >> What was your first instinct when you saw it? How how did you feel and what did you think? You know, often I think like if you're taking like a multiple choice test, it's like your first instinct's often right, you know, and then you second guess yourself. So, do did you have like a an on the spot >> I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I I watched space stuff with interest since I was a kid, and it wasn't your normal space stuff, so I knew that. Um, but

there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extraterrestrial. Yeah, I still don't obviously, you know, it could be something man-made, but it was definitely something secret >> because it was nothing like like we already have up there. Dan, did did you uh have any sort of like instinct of I mean the obvious question is like is it ours or is it theirs? >> Yeah, you know a big distinction. Well, I think because of Donair's story, my instinct was that yeah, it was alien because that's what she described. She described unknown things in high-res

NASA satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because I don't know, maybe they thought it would panic the public or they had no explanation for it. And what did she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know, yeah, we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects? >> Yeah, we shared a few emails. She's passed now, unfortunately. God bless her >> Um, and we had one, I think it was like 2 and 1 half hour, 3 hour phone And, um, she thinks like just like a lot of us do

that a lot has been hidden. Uh, it's being hidden for reasons of control. Um, but it's weird when you try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war if you had that? Would you use it openly to your own advantage or so? To me, that tells me that it's still unknown even to the people with the highest authority on that subject. >> I think that's right. if it's not well known and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites. Yeah. And in sensitive airspace and in space next to,

you know, our recon satellites and >> You would be extremely embarrassed to you wouldn't be able to admit, you know, you know, but if but if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public, yeah, we not only do we know what's going on, but then you try to signal that you know what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, intel tactics to try to like say that we know more than we do, but also recruit

on the topic because like actually they don't really know what's going on, you >> I think you're absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor. >> Um even just my my hacking was an embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed by something like that, can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, it's just indeterminable. It's hugely different. Um and also fear because I mean why you know are they here? >> What are they doing? Why are the interest in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of us? Is it that we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing or

>> You know we're with atoms. >> Did you get the sense Yeah. Right. We are we're doing a lot genetics atoms bow warfare. So, >> so you when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it's it's a static image, so you have no way of knowing, but did you get the sense that it was like moving in a in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around or Well, I've seen photos of Leo low Earth orbit stuff. Um, and this looked to be maybe I mean, I

have no idea of the scale of this thing. Um, but with the hemisphere, it was way beyond low Earth orbit. >> But I don't know. I mean, >> you know, there's a actually a Wikileaks uh email with John Podesta on it that's been deleted from the internet, but still, if you go on the way back machine, I think I think there's some like Reddit forums that discuss this. Definitely a real email. and he is talking with uh kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation I think

in California and he mentions the the the contractor I think the guy's name is Bob Fish said they're having lunch together and this is him recalling it in the email and Fish says uh yeah we spotted some uh fast walkers today >> and um they were I think this was in specific reference to the DSP the uh defense support program which I think is this very deep geostationary kind of recon thing that the Air Force

does. This was the Air Force at the time because now Space Force would do it, you know, post 2019. But >> I wonder if you saw a fast walker because also if you um uh uh uh try to foyer fast walkers, which John Greenwald did, uh the space force gets back and says, "We, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't we can't talk about them." Yeah. >> Yeah. Wasn't there a CIA foyer to do with fast walkers as well? >> Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, it might be the CIA. Actually, it might not even be

Spaceport. I might be getting that wrong, but yeah. Interesting. So, but I guess one question would be like was it lateral to the earth? Like was it moving? Yeah. Lateral to the earth because I think it wouldn't make sense to me if it was like vertical to the earth. Like if the if the butt was facing the earth, I'd be like that doesn't feel like an orbit like it's in a predictable orbit. You know what I >> Yeah, it was definitely >> it was lateral >> 90 to the earth. >> It was at 90. >> Yeah. So that Yeah, it's it's

>> Horizontal. I wasn't seeing it end on. So, you're right. It was in a position to be rotating around >> possibly in orbit. >> Just traveling past >> or just traveling past. >> Yeah. Or Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, it wouldn't be It wasn't like going directly at the Earth. It was like moving laterally somewhat. Okay. >> So, interesting. Any other detail? I guess you could you don't you don't know color, right? Because it's silvery white. I mean, it was very I was in like I think two bit >> Okay. but or maybe for a bit but yeah it was very kind of blocky and but it was

definitely white silvery white >> and did you see any sort of I guess I don't know how you'd see a shadow but like did you see any sort of >> I don't know cuz this is you know >> so far out from Earth >> interesting what do you think photographed it >> very good question yeah so this takes me to um I reference the disclosure project a cuz that was the root of a lot of my locations and research at the time. >> And um one of their witnesses, I forget

his name, he was DIA and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites and he he he was the one that said most of these satellites are actually pointed outwards and they're not like low Earth orbit communication satellites. So I assume if you've got very far out satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate them. Yeah. and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could think of. >> Okay. So that is fascinating. You see that? How are you feeling when you see >> Oh man, I was ready to inform the press,

tell the world, oh my god, like it's true and NZA knows and NZA has known for ages and Donair was right. And but then boom, disconnected >> as it's loading. >> So it hasn't even fully loaded. >> Like two I saw like just under the bottom half of the ship. >> And um Yeah. then disconnect. >> And you have no reason to lie about this. You've never made any money off of this, right? And if anything, you were kind of put put on a witch trial. Like there's sort of this witch hunt for like

20 years where this like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you where uh they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years. So >> for 70 years. >> Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. On his visit to the White House, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution. >> We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon on which the prime minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So, have you found one? >> Well, on Mr. McKinnon. Uh we have

proceeded through all the uh the processes required under our extradition agreements. Uh it is now in the hands of the British legal system. Uh we have confidence uh in uh the British legal system coming to a a just conclusion. Uh and so we await resolution and uh we'll be respectful of that process. Well, we had talks and they said, "Look, if you

just come along, don't fight it. You do between age and 20." Like, that's a good deal. Like, no, thank you. I'll fight it. Um, and yeah, and that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. Um, I found out my own government because governments are made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals in the DOJ and the CPS, some of them wanted me gone too, >> just as a favor to the US, not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice, just as a favor. Political porn.

>> Um, so that was awful. But not just for me, my family, you know, your mom and dad. And it's like, >> weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American embassy out here where it was like we want his head or something? Like it was very extreme language used. >> Yeah. Ed Gibson, who was a tache to the US embassy in London at the time, met with my lawyer >> and he said, "We want to see him fry." Electric chair reference. >> Jesus Christ. >> When she told me that, Karen, amazing lawyer, stuck with us all through this

and fought and fought and fought. Yeah. I was just I mean we already knew they played dirt cuz I mean people have to realize you know politics isn't about >> people being safe and well looked after. It's about the state >> the furtherance of [clears throat] the state and its objectives and the protectors the protection of your state to foreign states. So >> yeah, no, that is definitely the the lay of the land as is national security. And uh you know, I just find it I find it interesting that okay, you have guys like Snowden and Assange wherever

you lie with them, which like whether you think they're courageous and ideological in in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, uh uh issues with the intel world and mass surveillance and stuff. um or whether you think they put like you know Americans abroad in danger or whatever which I I think there are like there is some nuance there like I do think some people in the intel world who talk about this say well there there's some real like bad effects around around this >> but in Assange's defense he had lots of

phone calls before releasing that information so he actually agreed it with people in the state department >> I didn't know that that's yeah well there you go yeah but but but I was just getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases like Maybe there's some, you know, like uh more gray area or debate to be had or whatever. In your case, you're just you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's aunt's little flat and it's like 4:00 a.m. and you're just like a dude who's interested in UFOs

since you were a child and you want to figure it out. >> And so I it's just like to me if it's the US like get your together. That should be your you should be, you know, it's almost like they might have uh >> lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed. I mean that you literally like it's it's on you. It's not on this like poor English citizen who has no clear like I don't I don't think you're like particularly ideologically set in like destroying America, you know? [laughter]

>> I've been there. I love that. [clears throat] Chicago. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, well, we we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation, but you also found some other pretty crazy things uh while you were while you were searching in your girlfriend's aunt's flat. And so yeah, what else did you what else did you find besides this tic tac? >> I think um I was on a Navy system at the time. I can't remember. Cloud of weed, etc., [laughter] But um there was a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet, and it was called cuz I was

saying earlier about my search terms. It was UFOs, ET, terrestrial, anything, spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the in the title of the document. But um this spreadsheet was titled non-terrestrial officers, so not on the Earth, which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based marines or, you know, secret space force. Um, and that was incredible. It had ship names. It had um material, the material, the military

spelling, not material. Um, and it was transfers of weird chemicals like malibdenum and other weird things that are hard to pronounce. Uh, shipto- ship transfers and fleetto fleet transfers. And at the time, I looked up the ship names thinking US Navy must be Bones. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What do you remember the names of the people? >> No, I remember I don't remember any of the names of the people, but the there were long lists, you know. I think it was just initial surname. I don't think

there were first names. Um, and the ship names I was expecting like USS Lincoln or, you know, Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I And it wasn't Google at the time. I I think it was Alt Vista, the biggest search engine at the >> Um, and none of it was seagoing vessels. So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers and then you also see chemicals being what are the names of these >> Yeah. Uh um barium something was in there.

>> They were very exotic. what does that imply? >> Do you remember the exact So what what is malibd? Have you looked up what the uses are of this? Like >> yeah I remember malibdum I can't say it now. Malibdinum. they're very exotic. They're used in like uh magnetics. lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot a lot to do with metal hardening if I remember right like

>> Um like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two So again that time now years later with the research you've done the people you've interviewed it's all making more sense especially when when we come to the bofield brown stuff and dialectrics >> yeah we'll get to that >> and like nano deposition of thin layer >> Yes. Yeah. Thinly layered thinner than a you know a human hair or whatever. >> layered. This one sample is engineered

in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on Earth and for a purpose we can only guess. Multi-layered bismouth and magnesium sample. Bismouth layers less than a human hair supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. >> Okay, this is fascinating though. So, you see a list of how many non-aterrestrial officers? >> Oh, man. Um,

so my screen at the time was the old like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at the time. So, your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just load it up was probably 24 lines and I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So, maybe like 30 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names? >> You're killing me. >> You're not kidding, man.

>> You got to give us a little breadcrumb. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the main like criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot? Just alt print screen. Alt print. But I did actually I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet. >> And when I got arrested, >> all my data was taken to OI, Office of Naval Intelligence. >> So they still have my hard drives. I've tried to get them back for years and they said, "No, it's still an ongoing investigation. You can't touch it." >> Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the US. I

think it's 1882. >> And it's often deeply implicated in >> 1882. So, the National Security Act, which created the CIA uh was 1947. And um you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah. But, you know, Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Towns and Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. [clears throat] >> And uh Yeah. And then you have this guy

Harold Malmrren who kind of ended up giving me kind of a turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it uh was wild. I mean, he was like, "The Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can't get let out. >> But he said one thing, naval are going to be around asking you questions about your study.

They really get curious and if they talk to you for any length of time, they'll say, "Holy you really know a lot." They're going to offer you special It's how they operate. I said, "What does that mean? You'll open the doors, you'll have full entry, the doors will shut, and you'll be no exit the rest of your life. >> That is a closed system. >> And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases and because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage.

>> So, very interesting. So, so they end up with your stuff. >> Yeah. They were um when the British police at the time it was the NHTCU, National High-tech Crime Unit in the UK. Um at first they said to me, "Oh, you get 6 months. It's the Computer Mischief Act 1995 in Britain. 6 months community service, no time." And then they went to America and visited O and I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone had totally changed. It was just really serious. M

>> um which of course eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison. >> So it was a huge like using a hammer to crack a nut. It was you know David and Goliath that whole thing. Yeah. So wild. >> Yeah. Well, like you said earlier, I was just a guy, normal guy interested in UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, little bit of hacking, black passwords, nothing genius level. And then next thing you know, boom, it just blows up. >> Try to make an example of you. So, so, so when you think about those chemicals

and you know, we're we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Towns and Brown and anti-gravity experiments. So, you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials in UFO >> uh which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments. One thing that is true about the Biffield Brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high K dialectric which

means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism a lot of you know electricity it stores electric fields in it specifically. Um the thrust you see in the experiment is is much greater from the the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that you know I guess berium is actually in towns and browns documents like he talks about it all the time >> so and then what was the other I can't never pronounce it

>> malibdinum and and you looked into that and that's for like creating alloys. >> Yeah I think it's a a strengthening alloy. It's been a long time since I looked into it but I think that's what it was. It was like a strengthening >> Any other chemicals? It might have even had a shielding. Um, >> not not gravitational shielding, but like radiation shielding or some kind. I think maybe similar to lead, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me. >> But it's super interesting if it's used on like current space vehicles. Like people should go out and look that up

because if it is, you know, that might be an interesting lead. >> Do some patent searches. >> Any other chemicals? >> yeah strontium >> and strontium is also mentioned in brown stuff I believe or >> I can't remember any others >> okay and but isn't strontium I believe is one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the you know Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that

come from crashes I believe has strontium in it >> yeah it's a good dialectric um I forget it's K constant But I know it's high. >> So it's also a highk dialectric. >> This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers. >> Yeah. So >> and then what does the fleettofleet thing mean? >> This was fleetto fleet transfers cuz it was a it was one spreadsheet but it had >> So there was the officers names. >> There was ship names and there was

material a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names? >> Okay. But what Okay. What when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to like cuz there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret space program, Solar Warden stuff. What was your in the moment? What are you thinking when you see this? >> Well, that's exactly where I was. Imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest. Um, and then

finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking non-aterrestrial officers. That's the baseline for the whole document. So they're not on Earth. But I was thinking, well, they could be they're probably it's probably people. They're not non-aterrestrial cuz they're not human. They're nateral cuz it's non-ear based. So it's out in space. So space force was my first thought. It's got to be a space force. Uh, obviously Um, and then with the chemicals and

stuff and the ship names then and fleetto fleet transfers. There was more than one ship and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of 2 plus 2 equals four. >> You know, obviously it's to do with my mindset. That's what I was looking for. So, that's how I interpreted. >> Well, you know what I would do if I was office of naval intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon. You know what I would do? I'd make up some BS secret space program, call it Solar Warden, send

people down the wrong trail when actually I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and transfers of these. So, but the >> and solar warden did come after me. So, >> Yeah, it did. So, so but but like I'm still trying to get to the So, the trans what do you think the fleetto fleet transfer of what of people? I think materials material first you had the people then you had the ships then you had the um >> metal elements >> okay and do we think that

the material is being transferred between human do we don't think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans do we or do we think the material is being transferred between humans >> I think yeah ship to ship so I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics >> like a supply chain in space or >> Yeah. Yeah. Just a basic cuz you the army is all about the Navy or whoever is all about logistics, >> right? And a lot of these materials if they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layer deposition

style stuff, we know that manufacturing in space and in zerog environments allows you. So a lot of these materials they go, it looks like it was built in zerog. Like this is so crazy. >> No faults, no. So maybe they built it in explanation, isn't it? That's the >> Okay. So there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing

these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't uh make. >> Not physically impossible on Earth. >> On Earth. Yes. >> That's fascinating. I don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this like we're doing now or >> No, this is fresh and unique. >> I love this. This is fascinating because if I mean that makes sense. That makes sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make sense. I mean sending people 20 and back into through the sun into a portal or the maybe that's possible. I don't know. >> Super soldiers on Mars. No.

>> Yeah. Super soldiers on Mars. I just we need more evidence if I'm all entertained, you know, whatever. But you need evidence, you know, you can't you can't just uh >> Yeah, I'm open to all stories. >> Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so you it's like a space supply chain logist. It's like a space factory >> where they're creating these meta materials that you can't make on Earth and you need deep space to create them. >> And then so the non-aterrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing >> Yeah. this supply chain, this space

supply chain. >> This is really good because I never even saw it in that way before. >> Ah, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dialectrics. >> Which involve greater thrust in the Bfield Brown effect. >> So they're like making like, you know, their own program more powerful. >> Yes. With fit. >> This is fascinating. >> Wow. All right. >> I like that. I like discovery as we go. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows? But like that makes >> Yeah, it's all speculation.

>> It is speculation, but it >> the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like men in black style like aliens walking among us and then we put like navy suits on them, commander suits on them. They were like, "You're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever." That makes less sense. Both of those make less sense. >> Just don't look at his huge almond shaped eyes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally, but like, you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that or,

you know, it's like aliens in like, you know, military garb or uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, literally humans that we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever. >> I've never believed any of the stories of um, alien contact with governments and stuff like that. I think it's just >> Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah. At least it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good

evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things, >> you know, and and you know, have you ever had anything like that or >> I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. Um it was back in 2006. Uh my girlfriend and I are in what we call a bedsit in the UK tiny flat on the first floor, not the ground floor. And uh we'd gone to bed. We gone to sleep. And I was suddenly woken up by a really

sharp pain in my left heel. >> And it felt like 2 or 3:00 a.m. Felt like I've been I was in deep sleep. It had been a few hours. Like what the hell's that? I kind of leaned forward to check it out. Like something had bitten me. Then immediately I just went and was asleep again. In the morning I woke up and weirdly I don't know why I'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least one sock on. And then I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off and in my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes,

both about five millimeters in diameter and one still had a flap of skin hanging off it. Like a hole punch used for paper but about these this far apart. What? I know. And I thought, what the hell on the first floor? It was I was trying to think of every possible conventional explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical 5 mm teeth had come to my bed and bit me in the lab, but I'm on the first floor, you know, not the ground floor where like rodents could be. Um,

no explanation whatsoever. Um, I can't say much more than that cuz but I did um later as I got more into electronics and electromagnetics, I did like scans and stuff and >> they didn't come up. >> Couldn't find anything wrong. But a few years later, I found out cuz this some this is something I'm always researching and looking for an answer cuz I still haven't got one. There's a company, I don't know if it was Veraign, there was some chipping like electronic chipping company and their process was exactly

like that. A double Yeah, a double >> Um, and then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes were and then moved around. And I still have those bumps. >> On my hill today. >> Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it? >> I'm thinking some kind of government >> Government tracking, >> which I I feel ridiculous saying it. >> Well, do you feel ridiculous saying because you had a a 20-year, you know,

prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf uh because the American government had it out for you. So, I don't think, you know, I think for a normal person being like, you know, they wanted to chip me or whatever, like that might be a little paranoid, but >> I think in your case, I'm not so sure, >> Yeah. But even so, I wasn't running away. You know, I was on bail. Everything was safe. I was contained, as they would put it. Uh, but yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as >> Interesting. And do you still have that

in your foot? >> Still have the bumps. >> Can I see him? >> Yeah. [laughter] I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or or the opposite. >> Maybe you can start an Only Fans after >> All right, Strippy's turn. [laughter] >> I bet you've not done this before. Sorry for everything. [laughter] >> This is wild. >> Are we ready? >> So, this company, Veraritoss, >> No, I think it was Veryign or something. >> I might have It definitely began with a

V, but I can't remember. And they do these little chip implants. >> Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes, they were kind of round here in the corner, but now they've they've moved slightly. So one's there. It's a lesser >> And the other one's there. >> Well, the other one's big. >> Like that's like very easy to spot. >> Yeah. Unless the other one. >> I think that's shrunk over time, >> Yeah. It feels smaller. Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called VeraSign. It's called

Vera Chip. And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, [music] and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool. >> To think something so small [music] can connect you to everything that matters

>> when your life and all you love are on the line. >> The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Verip's corporate lineage runs through Applied Digital Solutions and

Prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of >> What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the >> Yes, that Rathon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, VerichIP themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow

the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data. Completely dystopian to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology

was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know. Uh maybe two lumps of uh unanalyzable material. I don't know. I think I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis, and I'd rather do that first before having it removed. >> You should do all that. >> Should do it like tomorrow.

>> Okay. I'll ask my local doctor. >> I'm just saying. I'm just saying. You know, you don't want uh the names to go missing like in the, you know, non-aterrestrial officers. Like you want it you like do it now, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Figure it out. Oh. >> Uh, so I joke we're we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials and I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. Um, but uh >> yeah, I mean is there anything just going back to the materials thing and

the the fleetto fleet transfer? It's just so fascinating. And it's fascinating that you're into towns and brown too. >> Oh man. It's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole subject like you were meant to like see that or something like like what anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it because it was it James Fox came out with the program and he he you know uh did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it um as far as

just the people out there like their interpretations of it when they see you know uh people discuss it. >> Yeah. So you're this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something or >> Well, we we stumbled on that together >> together, I guess. [laughter] >> So yeah, I I really connected it in that way that it was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking and in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dialectric or

so. It's pretty amazing. >> No, it it makes total sense. There was a company called Maiden Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now a probably more promising company called Vartispace which does this. It's like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been this. You know, who knows? I mean right

now I think we it's like we have that are known like six people in space like six astronauts like on you know the ISS and on various space day I think the you know Chinese space station they have an astronaut or two. So, the idea that how many uh officers were on this list? >> At least 40ish. >> 40-ish. So, maybe they're in space or maybe they were also and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial, you know, uh kind of atomic layer

deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing or something. >> Yeah. I've always thought there weren't aliens. I thought this is bound to be because it says non-aterrestrial obviously, not extraterrestrial. So in other words, they're on a a fleet that isn't based in spa in on Earth. >> When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real, and now declassified secret space program. The

US Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public-f facing ones. In the 1960s, [music] while the world watched Saturn 5 rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory, a military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan

like the U2, the SR71, and the F-17, stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black discshaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words, "We now have the technology to take ET Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just 2 years

later, but towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech. Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, uh when I was talking to him, he told me, this is at the end of a 45minute uh conversation, he said, "Jim, we have things out in the desert." And he wasn't referring to Area 51. We have things out in the desert that is 50

years beyond what you can comprehend. I can comprehend a hell of a lot. and he said, "If you've seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, but decided it wasn't worth the effort." >> Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of Rand Corporation for decades. Rand was the Santa Monica based federally funded research and development center evaluating the prospects of project Orion, nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could

theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets and enable long duration missions. Not coincidentally, Rand has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating deep [music]

space propulsion work of towns in Brown. his work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities in his diary entry from June 11th, 1985. Lunch was with five top space scientists. [music] It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier and some of the developments there in astronomy etc. are

like science fiction except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such [music] we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission, 300 people in Earth's orbit in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation [music] agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today, but we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s. In 2020, Him Eched,

former head of Israel's defense ministry's space directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the US Air Force, the production of the show

Stargate leaned on realworld military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive

portrayal of the service. The show's central premise, a classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. show up. >> Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think, like this stunning

revelation shared with Ross Koulthart on Chris Ramsay's Area 52. [music] There was a conversation I had with who I trust who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I What do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that [music] the public didn't even know the NRO or

National Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. [music] The parallel classified Air Force Astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So, is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human space flight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no

convection, no settling, no buoyancy, tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high value meta materials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson

Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human space flight. The notorious line, "Houston, [music] we have a problem," refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So, if you were operating a man spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear, too, like both of us aren't trying to f

fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think >> No, not at all. >> I think like I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world like it's all like all the but I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world and it's important to be able to parse through all these things. >> Yeah. And of course it's it's human nature to super associate stuff with something you want to be true so we can all fall down that hole as well.

>> Yeah. No, of course. Um well I'm I'm officially uh shocked. This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do like the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like there's this place Naval Surface Warfare Crane that does this. Bell Battel Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff uh as well. And so, yeah, I really I do wonder if you know, yeah, some of this is humanmade and then if you say it's of alien provenence, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box

where like people can interpret it however they want. And >> yeah, it's a great shield, isn't it? Good umbrella. >> It is. And then the fact that and what's is that like you're now experimenting with materials like you literally have materials in mind that make the Bfield Brown effect. Like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw. >> Which is wild. >> Yeah. Well, the um Yeah. It's um yeah

since 2007 since I first read about by Phil Brown. Uh >> how'd you read about it? How'd you come across it? >> I don't remember precisely, but it was >> because that's early. >> Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff, anti-gravity stuff specifically what brought me to that. but yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can you can do this in your, you know, home garage or shed or whatever. You know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism which no one

has yet does, >> but you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments cuz all it a capacitor >> two conductive plates in between them sandwiched uh >> an insulator a dialectric that stores electric charge. So you know what what's complicated about that? [gasps] Um and if you read all the the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it is exhaustive. None of it. It's all I did 5 kilovolts at DC.

I did 10 kolts of AC. Obviously, Buler went very far. There are a few people that went far. Army Research Laboratory, but no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dialectrics, a multitude of uh different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Uh is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a sine wave? Do you use a a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or um how long's your pulse? What's your delay? is that there's so many well

there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff but for a home it it's doable within a few hundred hours I think and I I've probably done about 60 hours all told I've done thousands of hours of reading but probably 60 hours experimentation >> w wild so you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment >> oh no no like like research into materials trying yeah I did try I mean I started off with lifters you know try and get a baker and that was Yeah. It's interesting.

>> But it's Bolster wood and Baker foil. >> And there was there used to be a website called Blaze Lamps. >> Mhm. And um they had some really wellinformed guys there exerospace that knew all the like um aerodynamic mass and stuff and they said just like army research laboratory they said there's no way that this battered you know metal foil sheet which isn't even perfectly smooth like an airplane wing there's no way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow >> just no way uh arl said it was like at

least 10 20% above what could be achieved by ion flow >> which is exly exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Towns and Brown is this mid-century very mysterious uh inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-locked Martin merger uh you know, the year that Skunk Works formed and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three-letter agency contexts and was, you know, shoulder-to-shoulder with elite American

military brass people like Curtis Lame. you know, just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments or what he called electrogravidics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonsson lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity and literally convening all the best uh theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield,

which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this >> Yeah. Weird connections. Um, and so if you take what he claimed about his own his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX and like chemical combustion. It would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not It's not a small deal. It's a really big >> Yeah. And the thing about Brown is we almost know we know for a fact that he

was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the >> And that that's number one. Number two, electro-hydrodnamics which is not electrogravitics. It's the manipulation of air flow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY uh uh uh foilers work and fly. Uh but it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

And I'm pretty sure I I kind of have the receipts on that, too. So, like that's So, you have these two things where he's like the best like EHD, you know, electrohydrodnamics and radar. And then he's claiming that he can also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics theory. >> And so it's like, okay, so like he's right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing, and there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who

could is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that no this is it works. It works in a vacuum. So you can't do it with ionized air. Physics in its in its current form cannot explain this. and his own experiments, Charles Beller, who you >> Are derivative of Towns and Brown's >> And so like I think there is so much smoke. There's the Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Musha paper,

>> Musha Tequa, >> and maybe I got his name wrong. >> Uh they said that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge uh the whole thing in in transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work. Um, so, uh, yeah. Is are they coordinating with these people in the US for like, you know, are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so. You know, it's like this global thing. >> yeah, this is wild. So, I when I we were

setting this up and uh, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, "Yeah, I'm super into Towns and Brown." I was like, "What? This is going to be the best interview ever." >> Well, yeah. I mentioned I really enjoyed your I call it your Bfield Brown special. I don't know if that's what you >> I'll take it. Yeah. It was called the bound by Phil Brown special. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, well, kudos to you for being into Towns and Brown in 2007 because uh The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Shatskin was this great biography that only came out in like I think around the pandemic and he c he

had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in like 2009 or something and he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, like you're talking about Towns and Brown being on the dark corners of the web, like the like you got to like, you know, >> That's where I used to live. >> It [laughter] sounds sounds like it. Yeah, man. Um, >> and was it Paul Leviolet who first introduced the idea of the B2 using >> Yeah. So, here's where I think Paul Leviolet got wrong cuz he wrote this

great history of anti-gravity and he he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Towns and Brown's Bifield Brown effect and you know he's a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called uh uh subquantum kinetics. >> Oh yeah. His whole Yeah. >> which was fascinating. Uh and he seems like just a brilliant brilliant I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago sadly. >> He's dead. >> Yeah. It sucks. Yeah. >> No way. I I was in email contact with him, I thought up until two years ago, but obviously got that wrong. And we

were going to have a I was going to start a podcast. >> And he was going to be my first >> Oh, dude. That would have been the best >> He said he had hip problems. He was undergoing a hip surgery or something. So he Oh, man. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a real bummer. And uh but I think where he >> and it's an amazing book and everybody should read it. But I do think he he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity drive and I I don't think that's correct. I think >> I thought he just said the leading edge it was like a capacitor but so the

leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate and >> Yeah. So So and I think he I think he's right about that but I think that just manipulates the air flow like that just makes the air flow >> Yeah. It's like >> reduce the you know lift to drag ratio. >> Yeah. It wasn't a full >> or increase the lift to drag ratio. Sorry. Yeah, it made it slightly faster, >> yeah, it makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, may maybe there's some real electrogic thing happening, >> but there's no there'd be no way to like fully say because it's happening not in

a vacuum. So, like maybe there is something, you know, actually happening there that is, you know, >> it's top secret >> and it's super Yeah, it's top secret. But I also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the B2 if it was using electrogravitics per se. I will say there is a guy named William Gunston who is the preeminent aerospace journalist in the UK um or was uh and you know was part of like the Royal Air Society and has all these awards and stuff and for um I think it was like Air

International magazine. He did like a history of, you know, aerero engine tech since World War II. And then he gets to towns and brown and he goes with Towns and Brown like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative because I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. And then he says that and then he caveats it a little bit more. So like I don't know if that caveing is genuine, you know, unsuredness of of what he's saying. in

the Tower of London, which for the audience was a place of torture. >> Was a place of torture. >> Does he mean professionally or like as a whole like giving away secret >> or if he's literally saying these are state secrets and and then I don't know if the caveats are like I don't want, you know, I I really don't want to be implicated for having said this, so I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don't know. >> But it's interesting. >> Yeah, I think so. But um so so you you you are do you want to pull off one of these experiments or >> Oh hell yeah. Um I'm planning it by

April the latest. I've been um distracted for a while and had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a 10x 10t shed and um they're not expensive but they consume a lot of time. >> Yeah. And I have I'm basically doing industrial processes in a in a garden shed. >> So it's it's a bit I've got but I the first thing I bought cuz you have to heat this stuff to 1,000° the calcium copper title uh to a,000° and then conf

I had to buy a 10 ton hydraulic press. Uh I bought a gas furnace and then because of the geometry and stuff that that wasn't unusual. So then I bought an electric furnace which is much smaller and you know I could easy to manipulate this tiny disc. So >> it's only 40 mm across. I'm starting off very small. Um so I've got to make that into what they call a green body. Make that solid. I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates. Uh but then

after that you have to think of when you've got these two placed at 30 ks or more you get arcing currents you get sparks basically um so I have to find a way to stop that and my first thought is to have very small discs on top of the 40 mm diameter calcium coveritate CCTO. [gasps] Um but there's other ways to do it as well. So, I've got to I've got to figure out a path and then complete it cuz I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed,

turn the on switch on, and see this thing arise. >> That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, >> you would kind of the haters would have nothing to say. >> What do you say? You say it's ionized. >> It's not real these days. It could be >> Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? >> Uh, yeah, eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber that's but that's for my resin and it only goes down to like - 99 MPa or something. Um but I mean Gravitech has done it in a vacuum

chamber. They used to contract for NAZA Jewish Gravitech. Gravitech is under a different name now but they they've got I can send you the videos. What's his name? Uh not Henry Henrik something. I've had a few emails with him as well. M um yeah, they've done it in a vacuum, a proper vacuum, like you know, minus hundreds of tall. >> shout out to Gravitech. I want I want to check them out. I've never heard of >> He's got a different company now, but I've got his email. I'll send you him, man. He'd be he'd be glad to.

>> I'd love to. >> And he now does stuff for satellites, I think. Like private satellites. >> Not using this, >> actually. I don't even know enough to comment, but yeah, he's he's done it in a vacuum. >> Interesting. And it is less. >> Why wouldn't he pursue it like you know more substantively after that? Sounds like he just went straight to satellite. >> I think yeah I think he want to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. Um and probably maybe that's as far as he wants it to go but it works in a vacuum. >> But also you have like Jean Louie Nan

the French um kind of YouTube scientist I want to call him. I don't know his credentials for real. >> He's done it in vacuum tubes. Um he he's isolated the electrode tubes. So >> but I don't know what the pressure was. >> this is I mean yeah so you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this or UFO nuts or whatever outside of you know whatever they're doing.

>> And uh most of them say that there's a there there. There are very few people that say there aren't a there there. the ones that do I believe there's um you know an air for a the guy his last name is tally and he's an air force guy and I think he consistently uses this very low voltage and tries to explain it away and I even I spoke to this one Navy scientist and he was like tally's just a bad actor like he's like brought on the scene like he's he's like this guy in UFO world named Sean Kirkpatrick who's the former a director who's like brought

on to like >> you know dismiss Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> well, you know, um, uh, Tim Ventura or >> Yeah, I do. Yeah, he's a good guy. Yeah. >> Yeah. He had that guy on that did, um, had similar effects with very low voltage, like 5 kV, 5 kilovolts. >> I think it was Ber. No. Or because Beller thinks it's the Yeah. So, this is the the NASA electrostatic >> cuz there was a previous Ber in my old documentation for like pre-2000s. Whoa. >> Unless that was his dad or maybe it was cuz he was he like mid-50s now. Maybe it

was him. What? Well, in in your old >> Yeah. Yeah. I've got documents with Buler and I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is. Well, we'll have to We didn't do that doc swap. We said we do a doc swap. We've got >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, Yeah. I'd love to. >> Um, [laughter] yeah. Do Do you have like a lot of compiled information about this sort of stuff? Oh, sweet. >> Zip file. Uh and in terms of free energy, there's one thing um I found,

not I found, but I found the guy that discovered it. Um so Lens's law >> stops the motor rotating because of you know the uh counter electromagnetic >> If you look at the formula for that, um the the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found that if you increase the induct, his name is Thane Hines. If you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing

magnetic field that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed, just like delaying timing in a car engine. And he found that not only could he delay enough to stop the count the C c CMF counter electromotive force dragging creating electromagnetic drag when it's past a certain point phase angle it assisted the rotation. Yeah. Yeah. So your standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath are coils

and he found that when um so the magnet is spinning around it gets to what they call TDC top dead center above the coil with his method because it delays the opposing cuz when the magnet so let's say it's a north pole facing down and it cuts into the coil that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet. And then when the magnets moving out of the coil, it creates a north pole uh north pole which accelerates it out. And

he found that when you do this stupidly simple but incredibly effective time um the CMF rises in such a way it's late on the income, so the magnet gets pulled in and it's early on the outgoing so the magnet gets pushed out. So accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all and you could actually reverse. You're not reversing Lens's law cuz that's an

inaccurate physics statement, but you're reversing the effect >> in effect. >> Yeah. And I did a small experiment. I'll send you the video. I did the most simple magnetic emoji you can. I um a cylinder shaped magnet which is diametrically magnetized. So it's not north on top, south on the bottom. Each curved half is a north and south poles. I have that on a vertical shaft And I show it with a normal generator coil which when you attach it to a load,

the power input needed increases to support the load and um the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance, when you tell that coil to power a load, the rotation speed increases and the input current goes down. The complete opposite of motor theory, motor generator theory. >> Whoa. That's the one and only thing I've seen and been able to replicate that works in terms of free energy. And this

guy is now he's got contracts with Seammens Phillips with him. He's talking to China. It's about to blow up. >> Whoa. And I've been following him since about 20072 on overunity.com. The first forum I saw him on. >> Fast. What's his name? >> Fane Hines. >> Where is he based? >> He's Canadian physicist. >> dude. You are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy. >> You've got to interview this guy. >> I would love to. >> He He's like your general kind of crazy mad genius. He's um

>> not so good at social interaction. >> But he he's got it, man. It's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that. Yeah. You know, for them to be not always like the most >> I think he's got a lot on his mind. >> I think he's got a lot on his mind as >> It's fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot like? Does it Does it ever like burn or buzz or >> No. [laughter] >> It sometimes glows? So there's nothing you basically you've gotten no incremental information on it

outside of >> just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot. >> Have you ever uh had a sort of like any sort of men in black experience or experience with, you know, strange men in suits showing up at your place or? >> No, but my lawyer had her office and her car robbed. >> Really? which is obviously not Men in Black has more earthly powers. >> Um, no, nothing Men in Black.

>> Did uh did Okay, so when when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites, how did you get caught and what happened next? >> Oh man. Yeah, I got uh got lazy, got um and thought I can go anywhere I like and look at anything and uh I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to you know the target and I was using like

free AOL signup CDs. So I wasn't being at all you like a professional hacker. I was just yeah I thought I could just do it. I thought, "Ah, these guys don't even know don't even have passwords. They won't even know I've been here." Uh, but yeah, eventually um obviously when that guy right clicked the LAN icon and disconnected me, that was NAZA. And they reported to BT, British Telecom, which is my internet service provider at the time, and said, "Who's

this IP at this time?" And they said, "Oh, it's uh in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was in my girlfriend's name or if we were using her aunt's internet or something, but the horrible thing was when they came with the National High Crime, they came to arrest me. The warrant was for the whole house >> and they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was only like 12 or something at the time. So, it's quite a horrible experience. Extended family and all my fault.

And uh >> why do they arrest a 12-year-old? >> Uh well, just a question. Sure. >> Not not arrest on the detained jail. >> That's still gh it must have been traumatic for him. >> Yeah. Cuz they didn't know who the person was. They knew it was someone at that address. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And um and unfortunately Yeah. My ex-girlfriend's cousin, he he was quite um antoritarian. He was quite alternative. They I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got purple hair. He must be the [laughter] >> Oh. So yeah, I'm laughing now, but it's

horrible because it affected so many other people, you know, my stupid curiosity. But did James mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed or something like like at night or something? >> Oh, no. That's probably when I was arrested cuz I was arrested in my sleep. >> Wait, so so you were arrested in your >> Yeah, the National High-Tech Crime Unit. I I'd been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4 was some big space game and um and probably smoking still as well and gone to bed late so I was

asleep at 8:00 in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to work. Knock knock knock. She's in a dressing gown. They're patting her down and pushing her into her room. Then they come into my room. I'm in bed and I've got this guy McKinnon. I'm Jeff Donsson from the National High-Tech Crime Unit. You're under arrest for computer misuse. So it's Yeah. And then from from that point onwards, the UK was like, okay, with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And

then what you mentioned, they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to >> Yeah, definitely. So, uh, when I was first arrested, um, the National High-Tech Crime Unit, who were the arresting body, said to me, >> "You'll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe no jail time." Uh, cuz under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. And um but then these officers went to America to

and I must say Office of Naval Intelligence because there's another OI there's an intelligence is the I think investigation or something but >> I don't know. >> Yeah. And um when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about they were very impressed by meeting with the Todd Brass in Washington. And um yeah, oh, they say, "Oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid." >> How do you damage the hardware if you just do this like software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using

like offtheshelf stuff [laughter] from It's like PC Anywhere. >> Yeah. But I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them. So it's, you know, >> you know what I feels like kind of white hack hacking to me cuz you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their advant like again you can say what you will about Snowden or Desand or any of these guys. like there's nothing you did to like knock the US down a leg as far as

their tactical ability to like you know do things. So it's like almost like a white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been what if like a malicious person had like you know penetrated all these >> servers state actor or >> That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So they're actually extremely lucky that you did $5,000. Where are you buying your PCs from? >> No, they should I mean you literally white hat hackers get paid. So like I think I think they should pay you. >> All right.

>> I'm just Please send the email. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, you know, I'm serious. It's like you literally you didn't do anything showing mal intent once you got the info. They got the info back and then they reset ideally their computer networking and architecture in a way that you know these sort of fishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using. >> So I just like I I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in in in like middling bureaucracy who's

trying to cover their ass like this took us all this. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah. What are you doing? You're you're not doing your job. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American national >> Decrypted NSA. >> Yeah. But otherwise, I don't know, man. That feels like a kind of crazy. Okay. So then what happens to the extradition >> Oh man. So yeah, the original

extradition law, which I think was 1989. >> Um was a good basic law. We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. We have this evidence and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there. So we should have him in America to stand trial. Totally fair, totally reasonable. but then I mean this is the weird thing in law. Computer crime is a weird thing. It's a gray area because it's not physical. Where where's your bum at the

seat when you commit the crime? Lots of like questions that are legally intransigent, you know, like how do you place this? Um, so what happened was I was arrested in and in March and then I was requested by the the NHTCU went to visit the DOJ in August. Then they came back. Then they reintered me in November 2002 and that's when their tone had changed. Very

serious. You're accused of harming military systems. Didn't learn. Could be years in prison. And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my god, this is just blown out of all proportion. Um, but we were protected by the extradition law because there had to be evidence of mal intent, etc. And I I when I did my police interview, I completely admitted to what I'd done cuz it was all on the hard drive, you know. I said, "Yeah, it's all on the hard drive." I went there and I got this document, went to another place, got other documents. So, I was open about it, figuring a six months like they told

me I'll be fine. And they said community service, I can do both. I'll be fine. Although I wouldn't have lied 6 months in prison. But um when it came to November and then they threatened extradition then on paper it was 70 years in jail. 70 years. It was like 10 seven counts 10 years per count. And I just I just went crazy. I thought this is absolutely mad. What are we going to And um there was a lot of um like the UFO community in America wanted me to

stand trial in America. It's like a >> Yes. It'll be great. He'll come over. He'll they'll open all the secrets and he'll make it after. But what America actually said, the DOJ said that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status. Totally secret. No media interview, no media cover, no family visits, >> you know, me in an orange suit with my red hair. [laughter] >> Joking, sorry. But yes, it went really scary. Like really scary, like over the

top, like well, you know, CF Kfka >> Yeah, many people said, >> "Damn, you must have been uh you must have felt horrible. We must have been like the the you know world's out to get me or the the most uh powerful nation in the world uh you know is out to get me and that that must be a scary feeling. >> Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002 and by 2008 cuz we lost so many court cases and hearings. I'd given up all hope and I thought there's no way I'm

going to give my life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought if I get that decision, I'm just gonna would not inject it. I I looked up the amount how many grams per kilogram of body weight and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. >> Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's extradition to the United States would breach his human rights.

After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life. incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the expedition extradition order against Mr. So, yeah, it's heavy. [laughter]

>> That's heavy, man. That's really intense. And uh I'm sorry it got to that uh place cuz that's it's ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it's just >> And again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them, you know? I'm saying yours I I think it's an absolute witch. That's That's crazy. >> Yeah, I agree. >> It's just crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my

>> Well, you're not the government, Jesse, so that's true. >> I don't have to forgive you. >> Okay. Well, yeah. It's just not a good uh representation. But um >> Yeah. Well, America's a great country and the people are great. It's just um there's been some very bad governance since World War II in my humble opinion. >> Yeah. No. >> And and on this side of the pond as well, the British as well. >> Sure. Yeah. No. Oh, and it's crazy that you were I mean Gordon Brown, uh David Cameron, uh uh Terresa May, all of these UK prime ministers were thinking about

you. You were this really important case because the ex you you said that the extradition law was changed literally like right after you did what you did. >> Yeah. This is one thing I didn't mention. Um, we saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers >> and it was written a British extradition treaty with America was written in American English which is kind of a clue as to who's calling the shots and um, you know, American spelling in an English legal document. And also a

punishment and they needed a poster boy. >> So timing is everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE, Department of Energy and like Atomic >> Matthew Beavenon. >> Matthew Beavenon. >> And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to say? Or or also kind of was like a >> Yeah. No, I think he was more skilled

than I was. He didn't just do blank password hacking. he found, you know, weaknesses in protocols and stuff, so he was more advanced, >> but um and yeah, and he was earlier. He was in the ' 90s >> and then what happened to him? >> He was basically >> slap on the wrist. >> He did go through some Don't get me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening. Um but yeah, he didn't face a long-term. >> There were a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case it was like a 100,000 computers ended up

with malware. You know who's >> Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, if you want to know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person, it's a virus. Yeah. Like the love love what's it? I can't remember the name. >> But I'm talking about specifically there's precedent for UKbased hackers hacking into US systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do. You know, it's not don't hack into, you know, national security stuff. You know, >> this is this is a a lesson. But, uh, in in in those cases, they did worse stuff than you. >> Yeah. uh and and they just got slaps on

the wrist and then you're this like UFO interested, you know, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever, like for your for your own edification. >> Like not because you want to do some like, you know, terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever and like they just come after you. >> And so they change the >> shows you >> Yeah. What's what's important to them? Is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber Ford way, which a lot of people have done, >> or is it some is it UFO truth? Is it?

>> Yeah. Well, no. It it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger point like that the like cigar- shaped tic tac object, you know, flying in deep space, you know, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. Then the n the space supply chain thing. I could see that. You know, they don't want to talk about that either. >> But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Don's information was out. So it's kind of if it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy?

>> As as a counterpoint to that, like there's proof that you got into these sites. Donna here, it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size NF1 story told and you can always be like that person was crazy. But like in your case, like they have like a, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the US now. >> I'm on the Inter pole red list. >> You're on the Inter pole red list. That's crazy. [laughter] I don't even think I knew that. >> Hopefully I'm good. [laughter]

But um yeah, like like you know with with I think in your case there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So, the fact that you're saying you saw a tic tac, you know, in deep space but above Earth and then you saw these non-aterrestrial maybe 40 some odd officers like, >> you know, that's that's like pretty that's like a little deeper, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But like to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed. It's like you

didn't sign something. You didn't you didn't like sign up to like you weren't like working at one of these places. You were like high in your >> I'm trying to think how girlfriend's managed that if I was intel. I was like, "How how do we manage this guy?" And then I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperers in 2008, 2009. >> Okay, he's mentally ill. He's fine then. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Like a putaway. I would put him in the mentally ill drawer. >> Do you ever think like the the chip is somehow either monitoring you you A or B

it's like feeding you ideas or anything? >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> You start glitching right now. Yeah. >> Do you ever think it has some sort of I don't know. >> Uh, no. My mind feels the same as it always has. But I do want to do some further scanning with my more modern up >> You should. Yeah. >> So interesting. >> I wish Dr. What was his name? The guy that used to scan implants. He's dead >> Roger Lear. >> Roger Lear. Yeah. >> I wish he was around and would could come to the UK. >> Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy.

>> I might know of somebody else who can help you out. So >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off here. Look. >> Yeah. Let's document all of this. You can see my finger is on the power button and both This is like a hard reset. My finger is on the uh power button. >> Missing this >> and volume up and volume down at the same time. >> And nothing. >> That's never happened before. >> Absolutely. It's never happened before. It's insane.

>> But you're with Gary McKinnon. And I'm with Gary McKinnon who is has a live >> famously said I didn't do it. >> This was the you know everything I'd hoped it would be this conversation. It was so fun and uh I really hope you pull off this Bifield Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful >> uh kind of I don't know vindication. You know I'm not saying what you did was fine but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And uh I love the fact that by the way the UK

rallied behind you and you ended up you know singing with uh you know David Gilmore you know the lead singer the Pink Floyd you know and like you have all these people you're like kind of this people's champion >> Crosby Stills and Nash man one of my favorite hippie bands from when I was >> Wait what did Crosby Stills and Nash were like rallying behind you as well? >> Yeah they did um they just like mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs but you know thousands of people. >> Oh I didn't know that. >> Yeah. So cool. You seeing all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, "God, it was And it was crazy because you're really depressed, but

you're seeing all your musical heroes." >> Vouching for you. Like, >> but you're also, didn't you, you sang with David Gilmore? >> Yeah. And uh Chrissy Hind and Bob Gildoff, but I didn't actually only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hind. So, I didn't get to meet David Gilmore or Bob Gildoff. Okay. >> Well, wild. Thank you, Theresa May, for making the right decision and uh you know, let letting you go and uh I think the US should drop their arrest warrant and uh >> I think so, too. That I could go on

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you can go and you know, go on a nice vacation and uh yeah, hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States and uh >> Yeah, that'd be fantastic. >> It'd be great. >> Thanks for a great interview, man. >> Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun and uh yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a little bit of progress here, too, in terms of piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Logistics, supply chain. [music] >> Sweet. All right,

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