The Defense Secretary Killed Over UFOs (Ft. Richard Dolan)

And in the 80s it felt like maybe the US moved from a strategy of secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out BS. It means put out partial truths and put out a circled their transport ship twice, totally silent. He said there were high winds. This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock He writes in his diary at 3:30 a.m. on

August 12th, 1825. The Night Watch reported this orange spherical object rise from the ocean. Let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes, it is a reality shattering phenomenon. I do believe that there's a good reason to think that we have been monitored or observed for a long time. It's not that we're being too crazy and too fr. We're not being we're not going out there enough. I think that's right.

just did this amazing um kind of live show for a bunch of people. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. I told you afterwards, I think you're the easiest person to interview because uh you know, I just have to tee you off and then you you just go. Uh and uh yeah, it's an honor to be here. It's a long time coming for me. And um maybe what we should start with here in this kind of, you know, private setting is I'm curious to know how you got into UFO research to begin with and who your inspirations Yeah, I have a lot of inspirations in my life. Some in some in this field, some

beyond. Um this is a story I've told a few times. I don't want to sound like I'm I'm rehashing it, but I want to I want to try to do it fresh. Um I was always like a very like driven young young person and um I always felt like there was this very intellectualized destiny that I wanted to pursue. I didn't really know what it would be. I've always been drawn to history and politics. Um discovered a real deep love of literature when I was in my my early 20s and uh that's remained with me. But

as a young person trying to make a professional life, I thought well I would I would finish a PhD in history and teach at a university. Uh when I was in my youngest portion of that, you know, I had I was totally unqualified to to try to do what I ended up doing. I was studying German history. Uh my German language was minimal at best. And here I was studying the uh basically the Jay Ed Gahoover of Adoan Bismar's 19th century Germany uh back in the 1850s and60s. was a man named Vilhelmsteber

and I'm like, "Oh, this is an interesting guy." And I'm diving into his career and I thought, "I'm going to do a dissertation on him." I wrote 150 pages or whatever and it failed. I just it was I was I was unable to crack uh Wilhelm Steer. He was an interesting guy. He did blackmailed people. He created a brothel in Berlin in 1870. He would take pictures, all of his stuff. He literally was politicians a Jagger Hoover of German unification. Absolutely. Interesting. And it was amazing. But anyway, so I I bailed out

of that. Uh that was when uh the Berlin Wall came down. I was I was there. I was in Berlin during that whole period, 1989. I was trying to trying to wrap this thing up and and it just failed. So I go back to the States and uh and I I left for about two years. I was studying at the University of Rochester in upstate New York. And and then I went back and I thought, you know what, my my German sucked. So why don't I just do like American history cuz I know that language and I went in and I focused on United States diplomatic history

and I did great. I was really really into it. uh I was very deeply and by this time I was in my early 30s so I was a bit more mature and I was studying uh Harry Truman and his presidency and I was doing a lot of Soviet stuff too but [snorts] I uh ended up studying 1950 national security strategy just before the outbreak of war in Korea and you know I was like who cares but that was what I was doing at the time and I wrote another 125 150 pages of a dissertation on uh that and which I did not finished.

So, I had two unfinished dissertations. Uh, and I was in a bookstore, just like a ordinary bookstore, one day in Syracuse, New York, and I saw a copy of Timothy Good's very classic work, Above Top Secret. Oh, yeah. And it was a subtitle of that book that caught my attention. It was the worldwide UFO coverup. Like, oh, wow. So, here we are. It's like 1994, so I'm about 32 years old. And uh I flipped through the book and I'm like, I know that name. I read his

diaries. I know that department. Wait, what? UFOs? What what is this? Like it was this great uh cognitive dissonance. And I thought this is this looks like a fairly serious book. He's got a variety of documents. It looks like his research is at least halfway decent. Yeah. and my question wasn't are UFOs real? Um, my question wasn't like are there abductions or are there crop circles? I wasn't down that road. My question was even if this was a mistake, like if they were mistakenly interested in in this

UFO thing back in or the flying saucers back in the 40s, how come I never read about it in any academic history book like ever? Even if it was a mistake. Like would you not think that's kind of interesting? You go back to 194748 and uh I'm reading here in Tim Good's book like the Air Force and the Navy like they were totally into this and you're in the early cold war. Yeah, that's damned interesting. And so I thought well I bought the book and I just went down that rabbit hole and I

thought I just spend like two or three months uh and I just want to resolve for myself like was this a thing or not a thing and that was it. And then I figured like I would just leave and go on to my life. And those are my favorite famous last words. So I I read Tim's book and it was like this is a very good book. Started going online back with the baby internet as it existed. All the news groups, you suck. No, you suck. I'm going to kill you. You know the bulletin boards as they existed in the '9s. But there were some good UFO bulletin boards. and I

went down that and the next thing I knew I just I left I left the University of Rochester and and it was a a real crisis in my life because I'm in my early 30s. I'm like I got all this ambition. I wanted to do something. I wanted to teach at a university. But I just lost the belief. I lost the belief in that whole system. I lost the belief in academia. I lost the belief um that I I wanted to do that anymore. And I was totally obsessed

with UFOs. I would I would remember for an entire year I'd lie in bed staring at the ceiling thinking all of these if thens. Like if if this is real, then was I totally wrong about everything I thought I knew about What What is the truth then about the Truman administration that I was studying or Eisenhower or Kennedy? like there had to be this whole subterranean that I was oblivious to. And when you're when you think you're a smart person and

you think you're well educated, that's the hardest because you want to like you've got your ego there. I had my ego like absolutely I want to be like I'm I'm a smart guy. I think I know everything but wait oh wow I missed this whole thing. That's not easy to admit. No, it's not when your identity is so uh tied up in the system, the system's given you positive feedback until that point to just accept, you know, that sort of crumbling and and finding something new, I think is really is

Well, he's amazing. I mean, you got to, you know, like you got to pay respects to your stuff. You got to pay respect. You got to know that that the these are canonical. I think, you know, works. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogn. You ever Google yourself and realize how much of your personal info is just out there? Your address, your phone number, old jobs, even your relatives, all online for anyone to see. There are these companies called data brokers and they make a living collecting and selling that information without you

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you bring up this idea of a breakaway civilization and you have Katherine Austin Fitz, this former uh housing and urban development employee uh who then went on to be a consultant who's [clears throat] uncovered trillions of dollars worth of fraud. Discrepancies in accounting. Yeah, discrepancies in accounting. Um yeah, there you go. It's a nice euphemism. Um so what is a breakaway civilization and what is the nature of the of the contact that we're seeing? Yeah, it's an I haven't really thought I haven't talked a lot about the idea of a breakaway

civilization in a little while, but I still think it's probably true. And uh just to give a background, it was a a a phrase that I coined um I don't know about almost 20 years ago now. I do a lot of reading of other types of historians and I was reading historian named Arnold Toinby. Some of you know of him. He writes meta histories of civilizations and I was kind of in that headsp space and I thought you know what is it that actually makes a civilization distinctive and unique and I thought well there's a lot of things there's like your social structure and your economy and your ideology your cosmology

have functional flying saucers one day? Can they go off-world? Can they encounter other beings and and all of this? And I thought, well, they're really actually kind of like a separate civilization, one that's broken away from our our own. And it was a it was a totally theoretical idea. It still is, I guess. But I think there's there's evidence for it in a lot of different ways. And so that's what I was talking about. And I think it's a a kind of a a breakaway group that has its own legal protections and and all of that. So I've known Katherine Austin Fitz for many

years. I absolutely admire her work. She's a brilliant uh financial expert, you could say. She did um she served with the first uh George Bush senior administration back in the late 80s early 90s as assistant secretary of housing and urban development. She told a really story. It it should be funny but it's actually uh really tragic. She said when I I went into HUD I said I want to look at I want to look at the accounting. I want to look at all the books. And they said well no you're not you're not authorized to see that. She

says the hell I'm not authorized to see that. So she finally got her way and she said, "What happened when they brought in the financial records?" She said, "You know the old library carts with all the books on them?" She said, "They wheeled in one after another filled stacked with papers like organized, disorganized." And she's like, "God could not pull this apart." She said, "You need the greatest accountants in the world to undo this god-awful mess." And she concluded like this whole system

is designed so that it is impossible to audit and that that was her start and then she goes through four years of that and she had her own uh amazing tumultuous journey dealing with u analyzing US government and and then and then eventually looking into uh she wrote a really great paper called the myth of the rule of law. I highly recommend it. Uh and then she told a really interesting story about I think in 1998 she was invited by um a gentleman named John Peterson of the Arlington Institute. John Peterson was

on many many short lists for DoD uh Secretary of Defense position for years and he she wrote about this and he said we're doing a little get together uh of a mini conference to discuss what it's what it would be like in a world where extraterrestrials are openly acknowledged as living among us. And she she said the biggest regret in my life was not doing that. She she was afraid because she at that time she [clears throat] was looking at connections of the US government and drug trafficking intelligence

communities and and all of this and she she knew that they were after her and she was afraid that this was like a setup and so she didn't do it but she I think she came to regret that but anyway that's Katherine and she's come to uh look at uh discrepancies in financial um doings of the Pentagon and the federal government in general. So back in uh 01 uh Donald Remfeld famously uh before the House Armed Services Committee in I think July of 01 just before 911 this is

now the Bush administration were brand new at this time. So in a sense what he he's about to say was no skin off their nose. This was really indicting Clinton years. He said, "Yeah, we've looked at the Pentagon records and there's 2 point uh I think he said 2.3 well he he kept revising it, but originally it was 2.3 trillion dollars in u unaccounted expenditures." He said, "If you can believe that chuckle, chuckle, laugh, laugh in the house and uh that became 2.1 trillion on September 10th. And then came 911."

And and then you never hear about this again. That was kind of like gone. But a few months later, there's a guy named Dove Zachim who took over the um accounting of all of that and he this is like in 2002 and he's like, "Yeah, no, we got to figure it out. It's all it's all done. We've just, you know, had a look at the books a little more carefully and it's down to zero. We have no more discrepancies." And literally, that is what he said. But anyway, so Katherine's been on top of this all this all these years. And then the question arises, does this mean the money's

missing or is it just you've got accounting discrepancies where you're not getting your books right? I I do think a lot of it is that it doesn't mean that $2.3 trillion got stolen, but it does mean there's a lot of opportunity for money to just go missing. And uh one thing she has always said is our our accounting, our global financial system, she says, is like an open window. It's not a closed system, it's an open system. So, in other words, the money goes out somewhere. And this is where she and I really connected because she's like, I think that this

idea of a breakaway civilization is really right on. And I think some of this money is going a lot of this money is going to that uh to support and fund and uh you know, keep that whole thing And I I believe in her Tucker Carlson interview she mentions your work and he's like, "Where is all this money going?" And she goes, "Well, talk to Richard Dolan." And she goes, "Space." very vaguely, but like you know the implication is almost like they're they're using this in some of these, you know, some of this off the books UFO research. I believe also that Jordan that not Jordan, John Peterson story

where they're doing a a simulation of uh you know uh uh extraterrestrial contact uh at the Arlington Institute. Uh this is from a researcher named Linda Thompson. It's very active on Twitter. She's great. Um she uh we know Linda. Yeah. She said that um John Peterson promised to show uh Katherine Austin Fitz a UFO if she would stop engaging in her research. So [laughter] I don't think I caught that one. That's that's interesting. Yeah. I don't know. Um Yeah. Interesting. Do Do you think,

by the way, John I don't know if I should say this or not. John Peterson and his wife uh along with uh James Woolsey, CIA director at the time, and his wife were the people who invited Steven Greer to a uh dinner in the early 90s in which Greer has many times talked about this, so I'm not really spilling any beans here. Just kind of interesting connections going on And I think you interviewed him. I did. Yeah. So, I don't know if that ever came up. I don't know if it was an interview, but um [laughter]

um um so uh what so you have all trillions of dollars off the books. She's talking about deep underground military bases and facilities. Do we have documentation that this exists and how far have we made it? Presumably, some of this might be getting siphoned off. You know, we all probably believe that there's some reality to the UFO story. Is some of this money being spent on reverse engineering UFOs? Well, all we can say is I think so. We

think so. Is there proof? That's a hard thing for me to say. I don't I don't know what I can say in terms of proof. There's a tremendous amount of good research showing that we have the the these so-called dums, deep underground military bases. I don't think there's any question that that's real. We all know that there are such things. Um I used to work kind of closely with a gentleman named Richard Ser uh who's done a lot of work on underground base construction. and he went through the documentation. I think he made a very very strong case that even back in the in the 40s and 50s we were looking the

military was looking strong about how to go deep you know partially it's just a lot of it's legit you know if they're worried about like nuclear war nuclear exchange how do we have secure underground facilities that are not that are impervious to attack uh but of course a lot of other things can can happen in in those things not just uh underground but potentially on in the oceans if if this is I don't think this is necessarily impossible if you have the ability to go under the ocean floor at least in maybe the shelf

areas um where they're a little more shallow. There's a lot of possibilities here. In terms of proof, it it's difficult. You know, a lot of this stuff is hidden very very well, hidden in plain sight perhaps. But to answer your question, I I don't know if I can answer it. I I think all of these are are somewhat unanswerable questions, but you're as qualified as anybody. What is your opinion of these new sightings of unidentified objects? With all due respect to the Air Force, I believe that some of them will prove to be of interplanetary origin.

My mind just went here and it's somewhat of a nonsequittor, but midcentury UFO stuff. I remember watching a video of you talking about um a letter that FDR had written about a very destructive uh weapon that America had acquired and uh that that had come from extraterrestrials and you thought that that was maybe a valid letter. Is am I getting this wrong? Oh um well I'm trying to think you might uh there's the so-called majestic

for this. So, in the late 70s and the early 80s, the UFO field is being rocked by by two major developments. So, one was the the recently strengthened Freedom of Information Act. So, in the late 70s and through the 80s, early 80s, uh, UFO researchers could petition the government for documents and they were getting thousands of pages of documents related to UFOs. This this was a shocking thing. You know, all through the 50s and 60s and most of the 70s, the government agencies, CIA, FBI, military

agencies said, "Look, we don't really we don't do this. This is not an interest of ours. We don't really give a damn." And then suddenly, thousands of pages of military failed interceptions and CIA memos and FBI investigations. Like, it's all there. It's like they were clearly lying. So, that's one thing. And and so from that perspective alone, if you're on the side of the secrecy, you're are they going to shake the tree just enough and then the right documents going to come out and now we're screwed? Like is that going to happen? So that was a concern. The other prong, the

all out. It's this thick. It's like an inch and a half thick. And you just try reading them sometime. I did this, you know, 20 years ago. I was I was afraid of looking at this for the longest time, but I thought, "All right, I have to read them." I printed them all off. I I put them in my own little combound collection, and I just started reading them page after page. And they are highly sophisticated, extremely sophisticated, frankly. And so if you're thinking if this is a hoax, you have to ask yourself, who's creating this as a hoax? All right, you have documents that

have through the decades, the 40s and in the 50s and in the 60s all in a very like seems exactly accurate format. Uh the data that's in them is written in in exactly the correct way. Um, so it's not some guy in his basement doing it all by himself. That's for Yeah, there's documents in there and actually my memory is a little more fuzzy on this maybe than yours at this moment, but FDR did have some statements uh or letters I believe where he uh

expressed an awareness of this phenomenon. There's another letter uh supposedly from Albert Einstein Oenheimer. Very interesting document. Yeah, I mean those are debated and uh I don't spend a lot of my time really fixating on them, but I go back to them every once in a while. Um and I I suspect that there is a lot of truth in I do too. I wonder if they you know, you know the name James Jesus Angleton, of Oh, yes. Yes. So, you know, one of the founders of the CIA, uh kind of an Allen Dulles acolyte,

a very uh deceptive and devious. He ran US counter intelligence for several decades. several decades and seemed very involved in the UFO issue. Um, and this is really interesting. He was actually stationed um in Italy at the time or his father was Hugh Engleton at the time of the Magenta crash in 1933, which is really crazy. I only recently learned this. Maybe they get that with you and Malgrim's interview. I think maybe that's where I picked it up. But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO

story as well. Well, what I'm saying is yeah, they did because because was there and so it's it's interesting, you know, I've heard and I don't know if this is true that maybe he had something to do with the MJ12 leaks. And in the 80s it felt like largely maybe the US moved from a strategy of um you know secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out uh you know BS. It means put out partial truths

and put out a lot put out a lot of That is the way disinformation works. This is something we I'm really glad you bring this up because uh what is disinformation? It's not the same as lies. You know, like so say we're on the inside and we've got this secret to protect and we are afraid like at some point this is going to come out. So how do we deal with this? So maybe you put it out, but you sandwich it between things or you stick at least one thing in there that can be factually demonstrated to be a hoax or a lie. Um, and that's, you know, that's an inoculation. It's like you get

inoculated against a disease by getting part of a virus, but it's it's deadened and your body recognizes it and can fight it. So it's like you become inoculated against the truth. The truth is put out there, but it's sandwiched in such a way that it's uh it's not credible. I love that you say you're you're immune to it and uh you know it's interesting I think you have blue book where it's just kind of rationalized explain the whole thing away the cond committee sort of kills it and then in 74 he seems to flip and they create you

know UFOs past present and future and from then on there seems to be this kind of outward openness on the part of the DoD around you know UFOs and in the in the 80s it feels like you you know you have Rick Dodie doing all this stuff and you have you have this sort of flood the zone like we're actually going to actively promote and see if and this is peak cold warrior say yes and no I mean you know officially the Pentagon throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s was like no this is nonsense do this at all

so officially speaking there was never any uh to my knowledge a genuine promotion of a UFO reality coming from that institutions I just say that but there were let's call them shenanigans going on and you know we've learned about Richard Dodie, which is a really weird topic for me because um I actually met Richard Jody once. Uh he's extremely gracious, genuinely like he's a nice guy when you meet him. Like and I and I know I'm sure he's extremely likable. That

was his job. He is. So, so you got to be but right that doesn't mean he's truthful, of course. Yeah. Um but I do know for a fact that he has very high respect from within um a lot of his colleagues from the intelligence community and from the you know the the um like scientists and people who worked with him they like him um they respect him. His own father was uh I don't know all the details but was deeply involved in Area 51 and with UFOs. I didn't know that.

Yes. Yes. And Richard Dodie was kind of brought into that as a young uh office or young military person. So he like when he says these days like he knows it's true which he says many times like I think he's telling the truth on that. I think he is saying he knows it's true because he does know it's true. Um you know in the early ' 80s late 70s early 80s and I'm not here to defend this but he was doing his job. Look he was in the military. His job was to um I I assume protect certain secrets that were wrapped by Kirtland Air Force Base and the like. Paul Benowitz was very

session and guess who's there? Rick And so it is interesting that I I think a pretty at le if you're into UFO stuff, you know, the Mario Woods case seems pretty legit to me. It's a in a line of, you know, all the Robert Hastings UFOs and nukes. Yeah. And then you have Dodie show up, you know, a couple years later and he's definitely scooping, you know, Benowitz. yeah, and there's an Ell's a document about Ellsworth there which has been manipulated and that's been traced back So at least I'm pretty sure. So,

you know, the thing is, well, I'm not I'm I'm I'm not going to like condemn and I I try not to wag the finger too much at people. Like it's easy to do that. Um, everyone's got a job to do. We have a job to do, which is to get past the BS and to try to understand the And um, well, I always say it's it's it's dangerous enough just going for the truth. So, don't go ad homonym against like, yeah, there are people who it's like it's obvious that they're sort of

but like it would be one thing if they were clearly leading you astray on a single thing consistently and you're like, "Come on, dude. Stop doing that." Or whatever. But I think, you know, some people want you to stop your pursuit of truth in order to just antagonize those counterintel people or whatever. And then you're you're sort of losing you're going to get less close to the truth and you're going to nuke yourself and it's just like so it's like what do you what do you want? Like we all we've all grown up. We all know

the government does all kinds of stuff and it lies and lies. I started saying probably before many other people. I've been on this for a long time. Of course, I I I did a whole study on the history of false flags a few years ago and um so yes, we know there's shenanigans and they never stop, but is every single thing and up and and what I'm hearing are like some some people out there like they it's almost like there's the implication is the

government wants us to believe in UFOs now. Therefore, they want and they want us to believe in aliens now. Therefore, it must all be black budget special ops. That's right. And that that the whole alien thing is a ruse. And I'm like, that is so wrong. You are so wrong if you do that and you're going down a very incorrect path. Yeah. Well, it's this reflexive if the government says something, I'm going to put a minus sign against it. Right. And so, you're going to be totally thought controlled as a result. If you

have some and maybe there is some it is important to have the hermeneutic understanding of where the government stands on a thing but but there is no the government this is the whole thing that's true everyone's talking like oh the but what you have is I mean look the Pentagon alone is a trillion dollars a year is a mountain of labyrinths uh and fighting bureaucracies and I can tell you for a fact you go back to the earliest UFO history and there's always been factional wars on this subject within the military within these intelligence community. They don't all agree on

policy. They have never agreed on policy. Um in the 1940s and early 50s, there were factions that wanted openness on UFOs from within that military. We know this. Read read the old books by Donald Kho. He actually lays it out very well. So that was the case then, it is the case now. And there are people we'll just we'll just mention Lou here again who within that system who support uh openness and there are other people who absolutely do not and they will fight to

the last you know the last battle that they can. So that's the fe the fact and so when you're getting messages coming out of there it's not it's not like a unified system it's like who's the faction that's speaking there. Yeah. It's a war that is going on and and we need to understand this. They don't understand that there's a war going on inside our establishment right now which is in real trouble. Okay. They're get there's a lot of desperation on a lot of fronts, UFOs and beyond. That's going to breed factional

disputes galore and hard um you know battle plans from within to to disable the other side. Totally. I understand that. Totally. I I couldn't agree more and I think uh there are probably less outright liars in the space than people trying to frontr run the truth. So you see disclosure is going to happen you maybe you have to get in front of it or something. And so I think there are all sorts of you know factions battling on that front. Speaking of secret science which I agree with you I think the second you look at

this topic for a week plus you realize that there probably is secret science going on and there's a real UFO phenomena going on and those two are two disparate threats. We spoke on the phone once about Thomas Towns and Brown. I don't know if you remember this. Oh, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And you told me an interesting story. What the hell did I say? [laughter] We I talked about how his work might have made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And then you had an interesting I do. Yeah. Okay. So, I'll tell this. This is true. Yeah. So, back in 2008, I

was at a conference in uh was it in Vegas or in Denver? I think in Las Vegas. So, yeah. and I met with a a brilliant very cool retired Air Force colonel with a PhD. So, uh he had a very strong knowledge of the UFO topic. He uh we had a lot of interesting conversations. I met him and I met his wife too. He's really nice lady. So, we sat down and he one of the things he said is he was

part of the B2 stealth bomber project. And I said, "Oh, I was so like young. I was so enthusiastic." And I just read a paper by um Paul Lavolet. Yes. Who is a researcher on electrogravitics and had things to say about the B2 stealths bomber uh having incorporated essentially basically principles of electrogravitics to give it a form of um an additional kind of lift. So uh yeah. So I'm sitting with this

colonel and I'm like here and he's like closer to me than you are right now and uh and also we were in a pretty crowded area so there's like people milling about you know and I'm not recording anything. I'm just we're just talking and uh I said have you heard this paper by Paul Avallet talking about uh as part of the B2? And he he was so nice, but at this moment he literally put his hand out like this. Stop. And he looked this way and he looked this way

and he leaned forward and he just whispered, "That's bullshit." And and he wouldn't talk anything more about it. And as soon as he said that, I thought, "All right, that's got to be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's got to be true. That's a kind of a telltale sign. Uh definitely. Yeah. It was very interesting moment. I didn't think I would hit a sore spot like that or something that sensitive, but it was clearly very sensitive. Yeah, it's so fascinating. And um as a good segue to, you know, your current work on USO, submersible objects,

Thomas Townsen Brown was actually a Navy And um it seems like, you know, he was in the Navy, I think, from like 1933 to 42. And it seems like the Navy knew a thing or two maybe about UFOs before the Air Force actually did. I It's totally possible. Yes. Um, absolutely. For example, one USO account, which actually the account that started me on on uh this book project that I've I'm in nearly done. I did the

first volume that's out. Two and three are coming out. was an account uh right by the Illutian Islands near a little island called Adac Island uh in the summer, excuse me, of 1945. So, it's uh the Pacific War was still happening uh the European war was done by then and there was a US transport ship called the Delarov which was coming back from Japan to Seattle and it was passing by it's still in the middle of ocean but north of it the closest illutian island was this place called ADAC. You can look it up on

Google Earth. Uh, and according to the uh, primary witness who was interviewed, a man named Robert Crawford, he and he spoke with a number of researchers, including Dr. James McDonald, who's kind of a legend himself. Anyway, Crawford said, "Yeah, we uh, the crew we they saw this." He didn't see the object come from the water. He saw it right after that, but other people did see it emerge from the water. It's a discshaped object about 200 feet in diameter. circled their transport ship twice, totally

silent. He said there were high winds. This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock solid, totally stable, and then it zipped off uh to I think the east or the southeast so fast. And he said you could see this uh flash of light as it left. So that's that's US Navy. You have just documented something uh unidentified submersible object cases. You've created this whole database and taxonomy around them. Which

case shocked you the most and why? There's some very excellent ones. One of the early ones did shock me. It was from and it was in the South Pacific. So it was a a British vessel called the HMS Blonde. There's an a naturalist on board. I I liken it to, you know, in the movie Master and Commander, there was that great buddy of Russell Crowe, the doctor. And so I I think of him as this type of a guy. So he's the naturalist. He wrote a diary. His name was Andrew Bloxom. And he kept a very detailed

account of the of the travels of this ship during this. They actually went from uh from Hawaii to the UK, back to Hawaii, and then down to the Cook Islands and on their way to South America. And so on the return trip from Hawaii, they're passing the Cook Islands and he writes in his diary at 3:30 a.m. on August uh 12th, 1825. This is 200 years ago. He said the Night Watch reported this

orange spherical object rise from the ocean uh at 7°. He said it lit the the deck of the ship so bright you could pick a pin off the deck. It then descended back into the water and then rose a second time and then descended into the water. And what's interesting, you could you could find this as a PDF online. You can look it up. And he, you know, before all of that, this is like just really detailed account of the travel. It's very meticulous. And after that, it's very like

conventional, very meticulous, interesting. He published this as a diary uh at the time. So, it's been it's been in publication for 200 years. And there's just this one entry of this this he said it was red hot like a cannon shot. It was I think about the size of the of the moon or the sun although there was no moon out that night so there's no commute no uh confusion with that. And that's it. It's just this bizarre thing. I read this and like holy crap. And what I I like to pair it with another encounter from 150 years later

involving a United States aircraft the USS John F. Kennedy which was in uh July 2nd 1971. It had just finished doing um series of of u uh qualification tests which they do periodically to stay you know current. [snorts] And we have this account from uh the man who ran communications at that time. His name is James Cop with a K. And he wrote about this several times around 2000 2001. Uh he spoke to the disclosure project in in 2000. So he's on record

for that. So anyway, this is what he says. July 2nd, 1971. It's 8:30 at night. He's running the comms [clears throat and cough] and he said all the in inbound communication starts spouting gibberish. He's like, "hm, what's going on?" And then he he's on the the hears on the intercom some some sailor like freaking out, screaming, "It's God. It's the end of the world." That's what he hears. Wow. Yeah. [laughter] So that gets his attention. So he goes

out uh and outside to see a glowing orange like roing orange yellowish reddish um I think he I'm thinking he said it was the size of a beach ball at arms length which would be kind of big. It was just above the ship or maybe off to the side. It wasn't totally clear. He said I'm standing there watching this for about 20 seconds. a lot of other people. He said sailors were uh one guy he said he had to be sedated. This was a

a really intense moment. Um and then the ship goes to battle station uh general quarters battle station. So he had to go back to his comm and he didn't see it after that but for the next 20 minutes the ship was on battle uh on general quarters and he uh stated that the weapon systems went offline. he learned later and um trying to think what else that was essentially it. So no communications, no weapons and and then that ended and he doesn't know how this

departed because he didn't get to see it but that's his story. And then he he actually said by the time we got into port a few days later uh the only the only discussion about this at all was from the ship's captain. He got on the ship's intercom and said, "Well, as you all know, uh, certain things happen aboard a US naval vessel that have to remain on the vessel and not to be discussed anywhere else. I hope I made myself clear, you know, something like that." And that was it. That was it. So, but but what was interesting made me think of it is that this was I mean, it

sounded like it could have been the exact same type of thing that Andrew Bloxom back in 1825 was describing this spherical object. And uh I guess I'll just say you know we hear a lot of people talking these days about orbs and spheres and I I have to say and noticed a large number of USO encounters do involve these kinds of orb like spherical objects uh which frequently and certainly I think in the case of the the JFK uh engage in some kind of electromagnetic interference and there's

a lot of that a lot of that goes on. Um, I guess I'll just add when I finished doing all of these uh cases and hunting them down in all of these disperate sources and just generally wanting to breathe life into them. Most of these were completely forgotten cases. But uh had a long lot of long conversations with my wife Tracy about this and she said, you know, you should really look at pull out some relevant categories for each of these cases. And I did that. I pulled out each case like 15 different categories like uh special effects from

there. was it at daytime or at night time? What what was the shape of the object and all of this? And what I noticed after looking at all of the statistics and I I put a a very amateur-ish uh spreadsheet together, but large large but amateurish spreadsheet, but it helped me to see patterns and um I noticed about 10% of all the cases involved EM interference. About one out of 10. It's quite a lot. But one that that percentage is doubled when I looked at the military cases. There's one. So

there was a a a 2x likelihood that a military encounter would have electromagnetic interference. I'll just add one other thing about that. In the in the few cases where people reported missing time with a USO encounter, and there are such or sightings of a being in connection to a USO, and there's a few of those. those those instances are four times as likely to report electromagnetic interference. And when I looked at these numbers, I mean, maybe my data sample's small, I don't know, but it's as large as is, you

know, whatever it is, but it makes me think that these EM encounters, they're not accidental. They're they're kind of a tool, maybe a weapon, like they're not it's not a random thing. So, um, I'm getting a little off track here, but it's just it was fascinating going into all of these, uh, uh, looking at these, uh, trends and these relationships that exist within these sightings. Uh, there's an intelligence and, and these guys, they know what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing.

program? Uh the the thing that comes to mind for me is I think Howard Hughes had like a it was like a front company for the CIA. It was called like Global Marine Corporation and out of that came the Glowar Explorer, right? [snorts] And uh you know we know that we've retrieved exotic technology from the ocean floor. So have we possibly retrieved us? I think yes. Uh I believe that's probably a yes. the Glowar Explorer. Yeah. This huge corporation, they actually recovered a sunken Soviet submarine in the 1970s and it was an

incredible feat because they went down something like three miles down to the Pacific floor. They got it, it broke. Um but they they recovered half of it. They actually gave a proper military burial to some of the Soviet sailors that they recovered. So that was an incredible thing. And um in terms of recovering discs, I once I received a communication from a um a gentleman who was former US Navy. He told me about having attended a uh not this one but another another

excellent one, the International Yo Congress, a really great place there. and he said, "You know, I'm I'm hanging outside and I run to this other Navy guy between lectures and we're just chatting and this guy was um aboard the USS Nautilus submarine." So, that was the first nuclearpowered submarine. And he said, "You know, the Nautilus went through a retrofitting or a refitting, excuse me, in the mid60s, which is true. We know about this." and he said one thing that um that we did is we had like this we created this hatch this side hatch to be able to acquire

objects that were uh discs uh unknown unknown objects um in the ocean now I mean uh this the guy like wrote to me and then and then he he never really was able to follow up with this Navy guy so he lost that whole thread so he wrote to me and we went back and forth on it and Um, I I reported that it's in it's in my first volume here. I don't know if this is true or not. Like because a Navy submarine is not going to be able to go down to the ocean, the bottom of the

ocean floor. That was way too deep. But it can, you know, about 10 or 15% of our oceans are basically ocean shelf. And that might be a different thing. And you might be able to um have a submarine kind of work work that area if if this is a true thing. Um definitely look we have a long long history. Crash retrievals is a really strong interest of mine personally and there is no question we've had a number of crash retrievals or recoveries of these UAP.

We could do a whole interview on that frankly there's just a lot to say about that. Now those are retrievalss that we know about from um you know the waters of this world are are much more remote to us and much more mysterious and I don't think a lot of these stories come through. I did um there is one gentleman that uh I did speak to many years ago. His name is David Noble White Horse and he was uh did you and I talk about this? Yeah, we did. I thought we did. Yeah. So, and did you

interview him? No, but it made its way into the Malmrren thing that I did and then I realized it was actually, you know, I think there Yeah, it was the whole can of worms, but this I think it was a year before Mal I think that was actually a little off. It was one year because it was it wasn't Bluegill Triple Prime. I think it was one year before 62. and he's a really interesting He's a great guy and you know I interviewed him uh I don't know 15 years ago and uh I can't even remember how I found him but we talked extensively

and he was a member of aboard a US ship called the Finch back in 1962. They were involved in what became Bluegill Triple Prime part of what is called Operation Dominic. You can look this up. And uh there's a series of high altitude nuclear detonations. Uh this is at the peak of like we were just going crazy detonating these hydro massive hydrogen bombs. It was crazy. So he said it was uh October, this is like right around the time of the Cuban missile crisis. October 25th, 1962.

They were off little place called Johnston Island. This is about 500 miles off of Hawaii out in the Pacific. And he said we did a detonation. He said, "We often would have bogeies in the atmosphere before we would do a detonation, like that is UFOs, and they would always disappear just before we would detonate the bomb." So, they're hanging out checking it out evidently. He said on this occasion, so uh we we had to do the deetonation and we were all ordered below deck. This is protocol. And then to his surprise, um

a cross train with radar. So later that day or evening he's talking to the radar guys and they're all talking about the bogey that was seemed to be shot out of the sky and and this is clearly what he saw and it landed uh at some point in the Pacific and they were sending a series of ships to go and see about trying to recover it. Fascinating. So actually I I I did a little research. I think the finch might have been an earlier operation Dominic test. We can workshop this live or I

don't know anybody could search but um I there's I have a lot of reason to believe that there were anomalous objects that came out actually Bob Jacobs 1964 uh you know Vandenberg case. He was stationed at Johnston Noll a few months before the Vandenberg case where he saw he was a photo instrumentation specialist. He was on Big S and he saw a UFO wrap around Atlas 8. That's right. That's right. And only two years apart and he said it was, you know, ubiquitous

water cooler conversation that a UFO shootown was being used as a cover for shooting down a Soviet nuke. The scuttleb at the time by every single person on that island when I got there, this was engineers, technicians, um my airmen who had been down there before We were told that what happened is the the Soviets had launched a nuke into orbit up above us and JFK told Krushov,

for the Air Force. Uh, and he's expressing kind of earnest confusion as to how UFO how UFOs work, but he says they're they're, you know, uh, real and not visionary or fictitious. The Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest uh intel uh organization in the US, you know, 1890s. Um you know, they call it the silent service, the Navy. Um what does the Navy know and how deeply embedded are they in this issue? Even the reports that came out I think in 2020 2020 and 2021 were

Office of Naval Intelligenceled. Yeah. Yeah. Navy I think has been deeply deeply involved in this from the beginning. It took me a long time even, you know, researching this for years to fully appreciate just how deep their involvement was. If you go back and look at some of the original uh books that were published by people like Donald Kho, he's one of the people that kind of was my springboard. Uh he kind of talks a lot about this. A Kho was a marine, so associated with the Navy. And so he knew a lot of top Navy brass. He was friends

with many admirals and uh so he had a a real ear to what was going on there. and described quite frequently the rivalry between the navy and the air force. This is very well known. I mean after the second world war the air force was the new organization. They had a lot of prestige. They were the only uh branch that had nuclear weapons. The navy wanted their own nukes. They eventually got it. There was something around 1949 or so called the revolt of the admirals. This was a big political uh fight between the navy and the air

force. So there's all there was all this kind of bureaucratic institutional rivalry that already existed. But it hap it also had to do with this the flying saucers as they were being called back then. Uh the air force was getting all the attention. But one thing that Kho wrote about even back then was like Navy people were having UFO encounters and the Navy personnel would get really angry because uh Air Force people would come on the Navy ships and throw their weight around and take over the investigations and the Navy guys were

really resentful of this. The Secretary of the Navy in 1950 was a guy named Dan Kimble. He had his own UFO sighting. So he was fight he was flying in duel uh with Admiral Arthur Radford who's quite famous. They were flying out from California to Hawaii uh in 1950. I think it was 1950. Yes. And Kho wrote about this. So what happened was Kimble's plane and Radford's plane were both accosted by an object that circled around their aircraft.

They were like a number of miles apart, but they both had this happen. And as a result, Kimell decided, we are going to have our own separate investigation of this. The hell with the air force. But uh at least according to Aho learned, it didn't seem to take off. Didn't really go anywhere. But there the rivalry was always there. I think Ross Colthart is is somewhere here. And he ended up having a conversation with Nat Kobitz who was director of science and technology for the Navy. And um this is

the end of Nat's life. I think he was dying of cancer and he said that he had seen UFO technology at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and it was involved these sort of you know um bonded metals that were fabricated at the atomic level and said all sorts of other interesting stuff. So yeah, I've I've heard about this. I've not actually listened to it yet and I'm I'm kind of really excited about doing General Eisenhower is called back to duty meeting Defense Secretary James Foresttol to discuss many vital questions. So uh one other kind of

interesting axis around that time Navy uh James Forestto James Forestto was a secretary of Navy before becoming uh secretary of defense meeting a very mysterious untimely death. He was murdered. Okay, let's hear that. He was absolutely murdered. Did he have anything to do with the Maybe. Yeah, probably. Okay, probably. Yeah. So, uh, Forestl, this was one of my real pet projects when I broke into this field. And, uh, Forestl was a a fascinating guy, a very brilliant man, of course, uh, kind of a financial

Uh, I think he played football at Princeton back in, you know, as an undergraduate, just so then he becomes, um, after he makes his fortune, he becomes one of those so-called dollar a year men, uh, under FDR for the war, basically to support the war effort. he becomes under secretary of the navy and then secretary of the navy at the end of the war. and he um he was actually one of these guys who fought against a strong Secretary of Defense position when when when um we were going through

the reorganization in 1947, National Security Act uh kind of a total let's like we're done with the republic, we're creating the empire now people and we got to reorganize the whole military system. Forestall fought tenaciously for naval independence under a unified secretary of defense and and the real issue was does the sect defe have budgetary authority over the independent services that was that's really where the power is and and and foresttol particularly

fought so well that he won that battle and the secretary of defense uh originally did not have the authority to tell the army and the navy in the air force what their budget would be. He didn't have that capab so he was a weak sect defaf and then irony of irony forest ends up in that position as secretary of defense. So he uh for his entire two and a half year tenure in that role, one of the biggest problems he had with Truman, we tend to forget

this, was that the uh that Truman wanted to cut the military budget significantly. At the same time, he wanted to expand US military presence globally. So there kind of a disconnect there. And the uh the joint chiefs were saying like $15 billion, are you out of your mind? which of course that's nothing today, but at the time it was also not very much. They wanted like 30 billion I think and Farstl sided with them but he was kind of stuck because Truman's just like just make it

And so they had a very unhappy relationship over that. Then at the same we have the flying saucers making their appearance in in the military world and in the American psyche. It's like we're talking about it and this was something that he was definitely very aware of. It was impossible not to be. Um I read Forestl's published two volume diaries uh which were published after his death. We'll get to his death in a second. And

of course there's not not a mention of of UFOs or flying sauces in there. But anyway, so what what ended up happening? So uh Forestell and Truman, their relationship became rocky. Truman's up for re-election in 1948. Everyone's ass like sure he's going to lose. Thomas Dwey the Republicans sure win and and Forestl bad move had met with Dwey and it got out and Truman was pissed like you betrayed me. Uh but anyway, so Truman wins, shocks

the world, tells Foresttol shortly after that, you're done. I think in January 49, he says, "You're out. you're out and they give but you know publicly they give Forest this nice uh going away ceremony it's like you're a great American all this stuff and this is the crazy thing so for this is January 49 Forestl leaves this ceremony and gets into a limousine and in the limousine is the secretary of the air force Steuart

now Simington was like one of Forestell's major political enemies forestl was convinced I bet he was right that he was being followed. Uh, Simington was probably involved. There was a journalist back then named Drew Pearson who was writing stories about Forestl and people were noticing all throughout this time that Forestl seemed like he was unraveling. He started developing these weird nervous ticks. He was said, "I'm being followed by strange foreign looking men." He's looking

around. He's very paranoid. He started uh put dipping his fingers into glasses of water all the time and just wetting his lips like there's some weird thing going on with him. So um so he gets out of this meeting and he goes into the limo and there's Steuart Simington who they hate each other and all that we know is that Simington said this I want to talk to you about something. No one to my knowledge knows what actually happened on the limo ride back. They're going back to Forestl's office. And but

what we do know is that when Forestl got out of that limo, he was he goes into his office, closes the door and he's shut in there for like hours. Finally, his secretary or knocks on the door and she opens the door and he's he's sitting in his chair. He's just staring ahead at like this blank wall and he's repeating one sentence. What is it? You are a loyal fellow.

he's out of it. So they start making the phone calls, you know, and suddenly the team comes and they collect him and they fly him down to Hobie Sound in Florida. and he's there for uh I think 6 weeks, five, no, maybe less than that. A few weeks. [snorts] It's been a little while since I've remember since I've gotten into all of this. Um at one point down there, he apparently, we're told, tried to hang himself with his belt. That failed. They bring in a a army

psychiatrist by the name of Manager. I think William Manager. He was kind of famous. He had a clinic. Uh, and then one of his friends, Robert Love it, a future Secretary of Defense himself, goes to visit him and and apparently Forestell's first things to Love it. First words were, "Bob, they're trying to kill me." So then they fly him back up to Maryland to the Bethesda Naval Hospital there. I think it's 16 floors. against all the advice of the attending physicians, they

take him to the top floor cuz they're like, "If if this guy's suicidal, uh, that's the last place you should take him. He should be on the ground floor." But no, national security people said top floor. So, he's sequestered there now. He's visited by a few interesting people. We all know Truman. Yeah. Oh, one thing they certainly did is they grabbed his diaries. Like, that's not making it out. They expuned the out of those diaries before they were ever published. But um Truman uh Forestal's successor Lewis

uh Lyndon Baines Johnson uh young guy named John Fitzgerald and uh who else? Forestell's own brother William was not did see him finally was able to see him uh after a long long time. For was never allowed to see his spiritual adviser, a chaplain by the name of Shehy. Father Shehi. What What guy in a hospital is not allowed to see his priest or rabbi or spiritual minister? Like that's kind

of weird, right? Forel wasn't allowed. So anyway, he's there for I think that's six weeks. Yeah. And uh he's getting better. He develops a a friendship with a one of his Navy corman guards like they're in eight hour ships outside his door, you know, and one of them uh they just strike up a a really good relationship and Forestell says, "You know, when I'm out of here, I want you to be my assistant." So, this is really a good thing. So, he's thinking about the future

and but his brother William, was it William or Henry? Yeah, Henry. And he is he is angry. Yeah, that the Navyy's not letting his brother Oh, and meanwhile, over in that whole last week, Forestell's main attending physician was out on a at a conference. So, the the hen house has no protection really. So, anyway, Henry uh calls the hotel, the uh hospital, and he's staying, I think, at the uh

Watergate Hotel. Okay. Wow. Is that where it was? Yeah. Or the I think that's where it was. And he calls them and he says, "If my is not out by tomorrow, god damn it, I'm going in and I'm and I'm going to raise holy hell and you're not going to like what I have to say." So that was the that was May 21st, 1949. And on the night of May 21st going into the 22nd, that's when James Forestl did his 16th floor bungee jump out the window. So what happens? So what we know

is that Foresttol's Navy corman who he was pals with who had the midnight shift somehow went awall and was gone. No explanation. uh new guy comes in and at uh 1:30 to 1:45 we are told he opened the door to check in on the on Foresttol and he sees Foresttol up in his bed and he's reading uh a book and he's looks like he's taking notes this

But Sophocles, right? Or or who is it? Is that that's Sophocles? Yeah, that's a Sophocles one. and he stops transcribing in the middle of one word nightingale I think stops in the middle of it and decides apparently that he must kill himself at this very instant. So he he according to the official story gets up and I think in the there's a shower where he could have done this more easily but he didn't do that. He leaves

anyone's ever tried to do that. So, uh, according to the official story, the cord slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death. now, let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be? I mean, Forestl had been very athletic as a younger man, but he was small. He's a lot more frail. He wasn't really doing great. Couple of big tough Navy guys or big tough young guys grabb him and throw him the hell out the window. then tied the bath ripped to the radiator after the fact. Yeah. That sounds I'm absolutely convinced

that's what happened. And then this is 14 years before the the assassination of John F. Kennedy. So you have a country that is they're going to believe every single thing the military says. They just won World War II. They're national heroes. And uh what they said, they immediately said it's a suicide. They followed up with a a kind of investigation. I which I read the transcript uh most of it anyway. the Will Cuts uh review I think it's called. They actually interviewed the Navy corman who was on duty.

You think like this is your main guy. You like you got to really grill this guy. I think he was in for like 15 minutes and gone. Like wow. Like thank you for your testimony, young man. You can go. There was no no no no no investigation, no critical examination. I believe Forest and JFK actually knew each other from the Marshall plan uh much earlier actually. They had had some interactions which is uh interesting of you know well I'm not sure how much I knew about that so I believe that though uh uh it's so fascinating another

another forestall thread possibly related to UFOs is I believe one of his direct reports was Admiral Richard Bird and so you have operation high jump right that would be bird yeah in 46 and and you have you know off the coast or down the coast of Argentina you have this this big fleet of American ships Yeah. Going for I don't really understand what the story is. Like it's a very weird It's kind of weird. I don't even know if I believe the high jump thing. I I think I don't. Do you believe like when you say you

believe the high jump thing, do you believe it was even a mission to begin No. No. I think it was, but I I don't believe they ran into uh basically space laser Nazi flying. I don't think I do. No. Yeah. and and um because I remember I read Bird's full statement that he gave and if you really read the whole thing I don't think he's really talking about flying saucers. There was was a death or more than one death a couple I mean it's very difficult conditions down in Antarctica. So that's one thing but my my thing is like if they ran if they were chased away

by super advanced technology well like a year and a and two years and three years later like we went right we went back to Antarctica. It's not like we didn't go back there, So [snorts] maybe there are details that I'm missing and I I will fully like look if someone is able to show me a really strong case for it, I'll change my mind in a heartbeat. I'm not committed, but I uh to like thinking it's prosaic, but I just don't know that I'm convinced it's um that they ran into Yeah, it's really it's really spotty. It's like I think he came back and he

gave a speech, but it's unclear the problem. He said we're we're living in a new world now where from pole to pole uh danger can come. I'm paraphrasing probably badly, but he he's talking about the fact that we have nuclear weapons and um and there will be delivery systems. Everyone knew it was all going to happen and that's a smaller we're living in a smaller world in a dangerous world. I don't know that he was talking about uh aliens. Yeah. Or you know whatever. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy but

because they are hard. You have Danny Shehan in the audience here, the great Danny Shehan who's done incredible research around this. Um, do you think you just actually did a great show on this on your podcast? Um, do you think there is a connection JFK's assassination and UFOs? We just had an 80,000 document drop that was less helpful than I mean it's like well I'm more confused, you know, afterwards than going at like I'd rather just listen to Danny on it.

I I liken to JFK's murder to uh Agatha Christiey's murder on the Orient Express in which spoiler alert everyone killed the guy. There was there were more than one motive. There were many many motives to to assassinate President Kennedy. Many. He was he was a threat on every level you can imagine. You know, my wife and I just rewatched JFK, Oliver Stone's great movie just like less than a month ago. I'm really glad back into the left. Remember that. Um but that was that was a great movie. And see, he brought up the Vietnam connection which I think is

legit. He also brought up Operation Mongoose. That's the whole Cuban operation. That's absolutely part of it. U he didn't bring up some other things like there's the whole Federal Reserve connection. Pan Kennedy was a threat on that. uh and and the whole nuclear connection where I think that this was brought up in the movie uh where Kennedy really was interested in a kind of a nuclear reduction and maybe disarmament uh to some extent. So so Kennedy was the guy who made the mistake of thinking just because he's president that he was actually running the show. He goes up against this national security

establishment that was like no way we're not going to let you're not you are like a traitor communist. that's how they saw him and we're going to we're going to have to kill you for our to protect this country. That's their rationalization. Uh but the UFO subject, yes, this is I think absolutely must be brought into it. Um the the interview that you're referring to is with a gentleman who's here. His name is Philip Lavell and he's a very good friend of ours. He's not a published uh author on JFK, but he he knows that assassination as well as any

person alive. Uh no lie. and and he's a great friend and so we talked about it uh and about the potential UFO connection there and uh he's he's on board with it as well. I think he believes that this is absolutely uh part of the picture. You know, there was a memo JFK uh did sign on November 11th, so 11 days before he was assassinated. I think it was November 11th, wasn't it? Or the 12th. 12th. Yeah. Thank you. where he's uh directing uh the Central Intelligence Agency to coordinate UFO data with the

Soviet Union for for you know laudable reasons I would say. So that was part of his psyche right there. He was going against the system. You look at the majestic documents which you referred to and there's the something called the so-called burned memo where uh Lancer and that was the code name for Kennedy was described oh I wish I could remember the exact wording of this but an operation has to be done on him if he's too dangerous and it and it must be wet and that refers to wet wet

work which is assassinations. So, um, and that was that was, uh, written shortly before the assassination. I can't remember the date of that. So, yeah, I mean, I think Kennedy, but I I don't think it was only the UFO situation. I mean, John F. Kennedy was is complex. There's a lot to um to see there. And as I I mentioned Philip Lavel, but the reason is Philip said, you know, you talk to JFK researchers and they absolutely will not go there. They will

not, even to this day, they will not want to talk about the UFO connection. You see this in all aspects of the alternative community. It's like, well, I'm already taking slings and arrows from the establishment for this. I don't want to talk. I don't want to wear this other albatross around my neck. But but it it is true. And the UFO phenomenon, look, it is it is the elephant in the room of United States and world history of the 20th century. and and all the academicians, all the mainstream historians and analysts, they

ignore it over and over again. You know, the first director of the CIA, Rosco Helen Carter, was into UFOs big time. Why does no one Why did none of the historians talk about this? And he and he joined the national a member until he resigned suddenly at the moment where in 1962, Donald Kho, his friend, they were trying to get congressional hearings. It looked like it was going to happen and a week later Helen Carter says, "Uh, yeah, I'm out of night cap. Look, the Air Force is doing everything they could. I think we should lay off."

And that was the end of that. So, there's a story here that, uh, establishment historians ignored for years and years and years and years. It is the elephant in the room. If we do not understand, uh, the impact of of the UFO or UAP phenomenon on world history, we're not going to understand a whole lot. We're going to miss a big part of the picture. Reports of flying saucers are nothing new. From the beginning of recorded time, men have been seeing unexplainable things in the sky.

chamber thing, high voltage electricity thing. It was And it probably did use rotating mercury um, you know, like pressurized mercury and all of that, which is very important for electrogravitics. and you want to get a anti-gravitic gravitic lift. Not my specialty. I should stop right there, but it was not a flying device by any means. Um, according to the the legend, uh, you know, Cook, I think, wrote about the hunt for zero point. That's a really good book. Yeah. Amazing book. That's a really good book. and he he broke this out uh a little over 20 years And he he said according to I think this

was brought out in a a postWorld War II trial of Nazis in Eastern Europe in Czechoslovakia where they talked about this and the claim was like you had a bunch of scientists like 60 a bunch of them died from the effects of this and then the rest were executed at the end of the war so they wouldn't talk. That that's the that's the story. The De Glock thing is fascinating because you see a rig there now where maybe like a bell-shaped thing. What I mean that it looks like that shape. It's it's really fascinating. And then I think he's also

documented through this Polish journalist Igor Vitkowski who uh documented that uh Ernest Growitz who um was basically that this SS medical chief who worked with directly with Joseph Mangala and um another guy named Walter Gerlock who is a gravitational expert in physics. uh we're working on this project. And so you have a gravity guy and then you have a guy working with like biological you know specimens doing and we know the Nazis did like experimental cell block 9 like they were doing weird stuff.

They they were they were doing a lot of like off off the off the main stream of Yeah, they really were. So there's a I I love hearing you talk about this. Uh back to Kexsburg. I guess I guess I'll just say uh there's something very bizarre came down there and I don't think it was a Soviet satellite. I do not believe that. I do not believe that at all. Uh you know there's Stan Gordon who's still around. I love Stan. He's really dove into this and I think he's got the goods on it. There were uh there was a local radio

station guy. I think Frank Murphy was his name. He goes in there. It wrecked his life. It destroyed his life. uh on many levels. Anyway, so Kexsburg, I don't know what that was. I think it was important. It wasn't just a satellite and maybe it was something more. Maybe it was a craft. I have a I have a I have a weird one for you. Aztec. Oh. Oh, I'm I'm on the Aztec train. I believe that one. Aztec was, you know, was the first case that was uh written about Yeah. in 1950 and it was viciously

viciously smeared and debunked a couple of years after that by a guy named Considine. I think that was the one. JP Khan. Oh, JP Khan. Thank you. Thank you. I'm getting all of my people mixed up. It gets tough to be an older man. You know, a lot of stuff manager. Yeah. JP Khan. And and um but this story was there's I have two very dear wonderful people uh Scott and Suzanne Ramsey who've really done the work on this. But they revived and resuscitated this case. And and what they showed was that that Khan's expose was utterly

This whole thing uh smearing them as these shyers, you know, sleazy real estate investors. That's not I don't think that's true at all. Yeah. Um, in fact, I'm just going to give a shout out to Richard Geldrich who I love his research and uh I talked with him and he he's got stuff on this. He's going to come out with more information. Amazing. Well, would love to hear from him. Silus Newton was worth $20 million at the time, which just for inflation. Like it's like

that guy doesn't need to hustle people on a doodlebug oil thing. He was very No, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think Aztec was real. Uh I think that actually did happen. You know, unfortunately with a lot of these crash retrievals, Roswell was the anomaly. In the sense that because Roswell made the newspaper at the time and so it was harder like they buried it right But it but there were always researchers like, "Oh, remember that newspaper

And and by the time that happened, you're really looking 20 uh no 30 years after Roswell. So those people were a lot of them were still around. Some were and researchers kind of jumped in and they found many many many people like in the case with Aztec uh it just didn't work out that way. Kingman, you mentioned that before. I just want to say that that there's no question in my mind that Kingman was the real thing. Raymond Fowler, still alive,

in his 90s, I think, [clears throat] uh, was involved in uh, contacting the uh, the primary witness of that. And so, I think there's some good information on Kingman. But the problem with all of those other cases is compared to Roswell, we have like a small fraction of the number of people to be able to talk to. And, uh, that makes it that makes it tough for them. It shows you how managed this subject could have been in the Cold War secrecy era too because with Roswell, nobody really knew about

Roswell till 1979, 198 helped popularize it. Jesse Marcel came out. Uh but between 47 and that time it was not in any of the UFO books. Not only that, yes. So the UFO, you know, um this applies to us today in our community and in the early decades of the flying saucers. So it was really not an easy career move to like you know write and and study flying saucers or UFOs. Bad career move for the most part. So everyone stayed away from it. And so

the people who were in it were often like hyperconservative in a way. Like it was very surprising. So like abductions like no way they're not going to get into abductions. That's like that's crazy talk. You're talking crazy talk. Uh crash retrievals of UFOs keep that away. Yeah. they would and and they'd been scared off of it by the JP Khan uh hit piece certainly uh despite the fact that how is it illogical that with all of

thing. And you have uh Scott and Suzanne Ramsey. That's not UFO research is managing those pages. Of course, those are hardcore skeptical hardcore skeptical organizations. But then you you give them first principles points as to why actually maybe something did happen at the time and they there's never anything to say back. It's they always well it's been well established that it's a hoax and it's like you that is just received wisdom. You were literally just repeating some party line. You've done zero research. No, I think Aztec really that was the real deal. I agree. I' I've been there and I've

been there with with Scott and Suzanne and you see the trees have been, you know, where the UFO is dragged out. You see that the trees are like, you know, have been bent over in this awkward shape. Uh you have FBI files of the two guys who reported on it, you know, through Scully or whatever going back to the 30s. So they were clearly kind of tracking these guys, which is, you know, really strange. What they were thrown Newton was thrown in jail over this. Um so yeah, I I think there's a lot. And then Scully, people say was Scully, oh it was like written in this sort of flowery, artful way or whatever, but he

was the guy a lot of celebrities would go to to give uh really kind of um you know to tell stories where you know they didn't want everything out necessarily. They wanted told in a delicate way. But he was approached by this possibly consortium of scientists that were kind of you know consolidated into Dr. G or whatever. And it would make sense that he would have been approached. And you have all these people mysteriously dying around Scully. You have Carl Flock, you know, who's the probably a three-letter

agency guy. I knew Carl Flock. So it's like you do a little digging. Other thing about Scully. You read read that book. Read just like the introduction. If nothing else, it's 1950. This is a guy who really knew things really well. He was deeply skeptical. Of the United States establishment in the military. Yes. which is an unusual thing for a journalist in 1950. Uh Scully was no one's fool. He knew things really well. It's I would recommend anyone find the book. Just read that. It it it reads about as fresh today as

when he wrote it back. I agree. And you have a recording of Silus Newton speaking uh that was the University of Denver or some some Colorado or something. And um so there's so much documentation from the time, but as as as soon as you say this is a hoax, people just kind of kind of look away and and and and forget about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because again, the whole thing about being in a fringe field like this, it's like the last thing you want to appear is is gullible, It's like that's the kiss of death. Like you don't look like you're stupid. I'm

going to believe every single thing. And so there's this overcompensation that has always happened in this field. Yes. which is too bad because let's face it um let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a that is beyond us. It is a reality shattering phenomenon and it breaks everything. It breaks absolutely everything. And the the reality is that we it's not that we're being too crazy and too

friend we're not being we're not going out there enough. I think that's right. That's the thing. This is a very um it's a very powerful subject in reality. What we UFOs, UAP, whatever you want to call them this the but even more than that like UFOs or UAP that doesn't really even touch that's right that's nothing. The the truth is there is an other Yeah. intelligence, society, civilization, whatever they are, they're

here. They are established. They have bases. They have a presence. They are global every every day. The nationwide sightings of mysterious Weeks of mysterious drone sightings. You're telling me we don't know what what the hell these drones are in New Jersey are? Can you make sense of the Jersey drones? I know you covered these in various context. Uh it's so confusing. You have, you know,

Rogan and Shawn Ryan being like they were looking for loose nuclear material on the eastern seabboard. You have other people saying, you know, we found some uh uh uh Chinese nationals like around there. Uh and then I think there's a lot of reason to believe there was possibly genuine anomalous aerial stuff going on. Yeah. Everyone's always like, I've solved it. I've solved it. like everyone's like figured this thing out. But really the thing that strikes me about the mystery drone phenomenon was it's like every single other UFO wave

you ever studied. In other words, this thing happens, no one seems to be able to explain it. Everyone's got their own theory. Thousands of theories are out there and then it goes away and you have no resolution. No resolution. Well, you know, join the club. This is how this has been going on for many, many years. Um there's still a lot of unknown things about this that I'm personally I would like to get more information about and I don't know if we ever will. Uh the reports of these things supposedly coming out of the water um and harassing US Coast Guard vessels. That's one. It was apparently a swarm that's supposedly

came from the ocean out of the ocean. Do we know? I don't know. But it swarmed a Coast Guard vessel. And you have Trump saying it came from a garage and you know these are this very strange place. Biden knows where they're coming from. Our military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. I can't imagine it's the enemy because if it was the enemy, they'd blast it out. Even if they were late, they'd blast it. Uh

something strange is going on. For some reason, they don't want to tell the people. And they should. With Trump, it's always hard to know because he speaks in such a overly simplistic singongy way where it's like, dude, I don't know what you're saying, but uh you know uh what it's entertaining, but you know, it is entertaining, but that the source that seem to imply something kind of anomalous, right? Yeah, I don't really know if if Donald Trump actually knew what these were. I mean, may I presumably after he became president, he might have figured out. And by the way, notice, you know, that the Trump and Biden

teams, they hate each other. Yeah. And yet when they talk about this phenomenon, they sound exactly the same. Yeah, that's right. It's the only difference. It's the only thing that gets like AOC and Matt Gates to agree and then simultaneously like the power structures that are clamping down to agree. And so yeah, so I don't know. I don't know if we have an answer to that and I I don't have an answer to it. I I was un very unpersuaded by the argument that they were looking for nuclear material. I I didn't find that believable at all because first of all uh you had these mystery drones over Ramstein air base in

Europe. You had them over uh Lakeen Heath and in in the UK and there there were a lot of more reports of them having sightings in California. One of the problems with this is it's really hard to know are we looking at the same phenomenon. Uh when you when you look at all the massive UFO or UAP reports, it's it's really hard to know like are all of these legit? So, how do you how do you actually see the patterns here? Is is the European aspect of this related to the New Jersey uh tri-state area aspect of it and is that related to the California? I don't know because it's

the who is doing the actual shoreshot research and nailing these cases down, getting field investigators out there confirming. We have a lot of stories, a lot of people throwing videos out there and I was in as much confusion as anybody else on that. Where do you think disclosure is going? Because, you know, you've been in this field for for decades. Uh I'm sure when you get into the field to begin with, you start to gather data and you start to probably think like why is no one earnestly eng why why isn't the

mainstream media taking this seriously? And then you you probably think, oh, disclosure is maybe right around the bend or something. And so now I hear maybe a slightly more pessimistic Richard Dolan or where where are you where are you? Well yeah sorry like I [laughter] I have wonderful brilliant friends who say Richard you know look look on the bright side a little more [laughter] and and I do I do I do once a week I actually will look on the bright side of things. So one out of seven days and I'm I'm there. No seriously um you mentioned

our media. So, one thing that I I have definitely concluded a long time ago, like we, you know, we like to think of our media, media is supposed to be the watchdog. They're the press. They inform us. And, you know, we all kind of know a little bit better now, but really what when you look at the media, it's it's part of a system that must maintain itself. You have a system that is we have a very complex society with a lot of interlocking parts that really do kind of need each other to to make them go. uh not just to keep the lights on, but you need that and you need all the

logistical systems in place and you need all the financial systems to to be working properly and that's how we live. That's how we eat our food and that's how we make our money. [snorts] And disclosure uh to a lot of those interests is a threat. It is a threat. uh is may it may not be a threat to you or to me in the immediate sense, but think about someone who's who's sunk trillions of dollars into a military infrastructure or an energy infrastructure or a transportation infrastructure.

Disclosure could could upset a lot of that. It could make some of those in investments maybe worthless or at least lose a lot of money. Like we we don't really think about this enough. And so it is it's a danger to that established society. Some people may say, "Well, the hell with it. I don't really care." Okay, well, I get that. But those guys who own it do care and they're going to they're going to fight every step of the way to protect their financial interests and also their everything else, the political stuff. And so, and the media is part of that

system. Media is part of that system. It always has been. You know, I I earlier today I was doing a lecture. I quoted late Katherine Graham who was the owner of the New York Washington Post for many years and she famously said, you know, look, we've this is in the 80s, late 80s. She's like, "Yeah, yeah, we we work with the intelligence community all the time to manage to manage information." And it was it was known. It was not even apologized for. So that's that's our media. And that's not even for me to criticize the media. That's just for us to like see it for what it is. So I don't think we're going to really

see a media uh I mean this this think about since 2017. So you have Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helen Cooper. They write the really breakthrough article for the New York Times. two of them and and we were all like, "Is this disclosure?" This was kind of an amazing thing. I was blown away by it. I was I was really caught off guard. It was amazing. But what happened in the aftermath? Really nothing. Nothing. Nothing at all. No uh no [clears throat] deep in uh journalists like investigations by

journalists of the mainstream. you had this very moderate, measured, controlled, often skeptical response to that where months and months and months would would uh pass before another article would would come out. Sometimes it' be like a skeptical editorial in the New York Times and things like this. That's that's the nature of their investigation. So, they clearly were not interested in following up. There were no prime time news specials on this, like none of that stuff. So, you have to wonder this. We've always said, even the skeptics would say, "Well, this would be the biggest story of all time.

Okay, so now we're we're we've got a a glimmer of it. Where are you guys? And I think we know that's not a a actual area that they want to open up because it's too dangerous. So, back to disclosure. Uh I don't believe that we are going to ever see an honest voluntary disclosure from the US government. It's not going to be voluntary. It could be if their if their backs are pressed to the wall by let's say [clears throat] powerful revelations that become that become too unrealistic to deny let's say

a senior level recent or active US government official maybe maybe a Pentagon person uh Matt Kovitz was would be an interesting one but he's now he's gone so but something along that level maybe. But those those people are tough to get. They're very they're very tough to get. Um yeah, I'm with you in the frustration. I I I met with um one of the lead op-ed people at the Wall Street Journal maybe a year ago and I was

trying to convince her that she should write about this topic and that this was a very worthwhile important topic. I was telling her about the nuclear connection. She she did express some interest and I think she was, you know, earnest. I don't think she was like dogmatically opposed to the subject. And uh it's funny she she said oh we have a consultant for this stuff uh said this guy's name is uh you know David Spurggle and um this guy did the you know NASA UAP panel in 2023 probably associated with the whole you know the secrecy and then uh uh um he said he said to her

apparently you know he uh he told us that it you know it was all um light reflections and temperature inversions and I was like oh my god like Don Menzel was saying the same thing in the 50s and it was probably working on the became mainstream media proponents back then and where it's like literally snapshot to today. So yeah, think about it. So the Washington Post, one one of the establishment publications has a a deep system deep state scientist you could say who's managing this topic for so she has to defer to him, Basically is what you what it sounds

Yes. Yeah. So that's that's how the whole thing's You got your talking points. Um, after after having researched uh uh this topic for as long as you have, Richard, um, is there a science fiction book or movie that most accords with your worldview? I'm looking at my wife right now. well, there's a few a few movies and shows that I think are really neat. Hey,

you know, I co-authored a book with Bryce Zable. Uh we did After Disclosure about 15 years ago and he of course co-produced the TV show Dark Skies which was a really great show. He they did one long season in the late 90s. Uh it's tough to compete with the X-Files but they did a did a good job of the kind of inside machinations of an MJ12 group. Um I actually really like what they did there. [clears throat] That's almost 30 years ago. Uh Steven Spielberg 20 years ago did Taken which I think was a very very good good work on that. Um, I'll just put this out now

because I'm a fan of him and I and I talked to this man. There's an author named Lou Baldin who uh I love I love Lou's work and he's he's he's it's crazy to read him because uh he is a selfdescribed contact and I don't I don't usually hang out and work with contactees. It's really not my thing. But Lou's work uh fascinates me. Absolutely. And I have no problem saying this. So he in the 90s mid 90s he writes a book called In League with a UFO. It's a weird title. Like what does that mean? And then he he subtitled it the Roswell

Incident. Like this book has nothing to do with Roswell, but he was trying to like market it. 1997 it gets published. Roswell was the 50th anniversary. So fair enough. But you read this book. It's insane. He says, "Well, I um I got the material for writing this book from a a gentleman who gave me some papers totally uh cy about like this. and he writes an insiders story of how the committee studied the

flying saucer that came into their possession after Roswell, the scientists, all the crazy stuff about the alien ship, how surreal it was, all the crazy conscious genius level alien gadgets as he calls them that baffled these scientists, the political arguments. And I'm thinking, if this is fiction, this is the best damn fiction in UFOs anywhere. And it it would be and [clears throat] is it true? And well, to this day, people discuss it. I've I've communicated with Lou.

I've talked with him and uh he's he's still around and I I really like him. And I I think I believe him. I think I believe this man. Um somehow he gets this information. He's he can talk about I'm going to try to interview him one day. You should, too. He's He's worth it. Uh, and then 10 years later, he writes this even crazier book. It's insane. It's called A Day with an Extraterrestrial, who has a name. The extraterrestrial's name is Milton. Like, that's a good name. So, Lou Lou

writes it and he's like, "Yeah, I'm doing my daily walk in the park where I live." And uh, this crazy guy accosts me and says, "Hey, I remember me." He's like, "I don't know you at all." "Yeah, yeah, you know me very well." "Well, I don't think I know you at all. Get the hell away from me." Next thing you know, he's been paralyzed. He's floated, levitated into a ship. No one sees it. And he goes for an entire day on this crazy Alice in Wonderland adventure. This is Alice in Wonderland for Euphology. This book, A Day with an Extraterrestrial. If Lewis Carol were to

write about UFOs, this is the book you would write. People do not realize just how wild it is. Is it true? I don't know. It's It's a great read and I find myself returning to it over and over again. You're welcome. Yeah, that's what I I've never heard a better plug. It's a great book. I want to pivot a little bit. You've been on this interesting kick around China and UFOs. To many of us, I think China is somewhat of a black box when it comes to this this topic. you know,

people talk about the threebody problem, this famous, you know, science fiction trilogy, or I guess that's the first book of the of the trilogy. Um, and there are a couple of journals from China that people are aware of, but you've done kind of a deeper dive. I did. Yeah, I did actually this for uh the members of my website. So, I like to do special projects for that. I we got Richard Members.com. Great people there. I And I and I'm always like working on that those projects as well as what I do on YouTube and and in my books. So I thought you know I've always been interested in uh understanding the inter

all international dimensions of this phenomenon and that includes international research and China is as much a black box to me as as you're just saying now and I thought I don't really what what can I learn I mean I I want to do the same dive on Russian eupfology as well but I started with a better knowledge of that and with Chinese eupfology I felt like I knew next to nothing and I thought why why is that why do I know so little about what the Chinese UFO history is. Well, yeah, I just discovered it's really quite fascinating. So, there's still a lot

that I don't know, but what I can definitely say to you, it, you know, everything revolves around the the death of Mao Zong in 1976. So, there's pre-MAU and up to that point, you could not absolutely not no way ever research UFOs in that country. It was absolutely no way. uh the whole subject was off limits because I mean it seems to me it was a challenge to the authority of the communist party and and a challenge to the fact that the party was in control

of everything and so what are these things flying around they're American they are extraterrestrial whatever it is we don't like to acknowledge it and they did not ma then dies and of course uh with many aspects of Chinese society certain floodgates did open up one of them was a massive massive absolutely massive almost national interest in UFOs. Uh to this day I think this is a very very popular topic in China but it's it's managed very differently now than it was in the 70s. So when Mao

first died you had Chinese researchers u a number of different ones. You had a kind of very scientific materialist you could almost say Marxist uh version of understanding this subject. But what I what you find is that culturally among the grassroots Chinese people they are into like contact cases big time uh into like metaphysical aspects of this subject in ways that you wouldn't think for a

communist country where spiritual beliefs are not particularly uh encouraged or or even tolerated at times. But yet this became a huge thing. So all through the 80s you get the uh development of on the one hand very like solid like muon type you know Chinese research where they're they're researching sometimes military uh and publishing some of these. So I I was able to find some of these. There was a a Chinese researcher by the name

of Paul Dong who wrote a really great book uh in the early early 1980s on this and I think you can find a PDF of that. Um it's out there. But anyway, and there's a few other like random Chinese journals that that you can get some of the information here in the west. But basically, long story short, through the 80s and 1990s, China had an organization known as a Fallon Gong. Many of you know of this uh that grew so massively. So the falong gong was essentially doing um

kind of like a version of tai chi um movement with a very like almost like yoga but taichi it's you know you could probably do it outside on your mat and that's what they would do but it was such a massive national movement millions and millions and more millions and the fallen gong had very explicit UFO extraterrestrial related beliefs that's what made them a little different and this movement became so big the Chinese government really became afraid of it. This is you know you had Tianan

Square remember that 1989 where all of the openness that had been happening through the 80s uh kind of grew and grew and morphed into a public demonstration wanting you know open and complete freedom of expression and that was very very severely crushed. So all through the 90s in the aftermath, the falling gong goes on their rise and they were ruthlessly shut down in the late 90s in in almost

the exact same way. Chinese the Chinese Communist Party decided this is way too much of a threat. We absolutely cannot allow this and we we must crush this and they did crush it absolutely completely. The whole thing that my biggest takeaway from all of that was that we talk about disclosure here in the United States uh disclosure in China is I really I'm sure would be perceived as such a major to the government vastly more vastly

more than any anyone in Washington DC would perceive to the United States structure of power. So uh it had to be suppressed in China and Chinese eupfology to this day is basically had its has its teeth taken out. I mean it's very very tame. It's very managed. It's very controlled and and it's also one thing that you would have to add is the the People's Liberation Army uh the Chinese army Chinese military they are very sophisticated uh in tracking UFO reports. Very very sophisticated. They

are integrated I think in all of like the Chinese research civilian uh organizations. They're collecting everything and they have a multi-ter system by which they organize these reports. So they they collect then they have they bring them to like a a central uh clearing house where they study and analyze them and then they bring them to a final uh repository where they keep these. Uh we don't get any of that information. I don't think any of that really comes out but they they're very very sophisticated. they have got they

are on top of managing uh their UFO data and that's really one reason I think why we we don't really get anything out of it. I tried you know looking u you know we can do Google translate you can translate website pages but you cannot get to the Chinese cases. It's it's I don't think it's means maybe some people can but I can't. It's so fascinating and it it it does beg the question of, you know, why is the the this Dark Forest, you know, trilogy, the threebody problem allowed? Uh, you know, you they they can clamp

down on whatever literature they want and it doesn't exactly paint the cultural revolution in the most, you know, the rosiest of of ways. It's sort Well, yeah, I have I I I want to respond to that because I think um what what we're seeing is nothing is black and white anymore. We're in a world and China is part of this too where things are in change. We're we're in the midst of an AI revolution. We're in the midst of all of the kinds of tech revolutions going on and a global communications revolution has been occurring. It continues to happen. So

just because a government, whether it's the US government, the Chinese government, the Russian, just because they say we don't we don't want to recognize this doesn't mean that they're able to prevent it. They can't really prevent it 100%. Uh I think what we're seeing is a series of adjustments being made by all of the governments um in in all these ways. Uh I think you see them fighting defense uh as it were. That that's certainly the US as well. People will say, you know, this guy says he's taking all these NDAs and all of this and yet he's talking about crash retrievals, isn't he breaking classified

security regulations? And and what I what I suspect, I mean, I don't know, but I think what happens is you've got factions all over the place. You got factions in the US Pentagon, probably multiple fact, not just two, probably many. And and some people have supporters who are enabling them to say certain things. Other people in in that same structure who probably be dead set against it, but they didn't win that battle. And so certain things get out. And I I'll guarantee it's probably very similar with China. They have to they

have to play the game. They can't just slam down all the time and say this is how it is forever. We're in a a world that is in flux. We just have to recognize there are there are other sides of this. And I'm not advocating for one thing or another. I'm just saying it is it's a little complicated. But when you have a a system that is designed to support us like media, the media is part of the system. So it's been captured. We all know long ago been captured. like there, you know, you had some watchdog journalists that maybe

some of them are still out there. You're one. Um, but in terms of establishment uh, they've everything's captured by the system because it must protect itself. The system must protect itself. So, you know, when you get these the skeptics out there, they they fit right in perfectly. They serve the system as well. It's funny you you have you know people like Vanavar Bush talked about in UFO lore kind of all the time. You know Robert Sarbacher said he was you know

part part of the program initially it would make sense if we had a UFO program it would be adjacent to our atomic program. He was head of you know the office of strategic research and development at the highest level for for FDR and Truman. Yep. And uh he wrote a a paper called the endless frontier. And I almost think if you read that that that paper, that essay through the lens of UFO technology, maybe it's like, oh, the the frontier is actually super endless and um this thing needs to be, you know, how

this tech gets developed needs to be managed by, you know, these central groups like, oh, and they are convinced like they're the guys to do it, right? They're smarter than we are. They know better, right? Uh we can argue whether they do or don't, but that's their position. And so they're not they're not ever going to like voluntarily just say, "Oh yeah, here here you go." Yeah. It's not going to happen. Yeah. I have a weird crash for you. I don't know if you're familiar with this one, but um uh South Haven uh uh Long Island uh in the 90s. Okay. Do you think

by Brook Haven National Labs? That's right. By Brook Haven National Lab. There's a man named John Ford. Okay. Who I'm sure you know this. Maybe maybe some listeners do, too. Yeah. I mean, I I actually think that's that's a real possible one. Yeah. There's a Long Island UFO group. he headed it and they actually there there may be more than one of those that may have happened on Long Island. I grew up on Long Island. My my backyard there.

I didn't know about it at the time. Yeah, that was kind of You think there were more than one? Well, I think they believed there were more than one. I think that's fascinating. Ford group thought so because that was the first um particle accelerator in the US uh which is the cosmatron at Brook Haven National Labs and you hear you know defin UFOs are definitely attracted to nuclear and then I wonder if you could generalize that to tip the spear science and to high energy physics and particle accelerators. To think yes. I think so. Yeah. the the Long Island

crash, I think it was supposed to be by Morish's Bay. Okay. I think that's what the year. And um yeah, I believe I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I do know like there was a lot of there were eyewitnesses who talked about massive security presence around that area at that time and uh John Ford looked into you know he was they really destroyed his life. M so John Ford I used to I used to be um on sometimes

some good terms with the the late Elaine Douglas who was a very close friend of John Ford. Ela Douglas in her own right was a really cool lady. Tough, smart, uh someone you don't screw around with. She could get angry like I remember that. But toward the end of her life, she and I were were much closer. But anyway, she knew John Ford very well. And I know she was a strong believer in this uh reality of the Long Island crash, but Ford was, it really does look to me that he was totally set uh with this kind of wacky plot to kill

a member of one of the uh I think the Nassau County or is it the Suffach uh city council, whatever, whatever uh governing body by poisoning his toothpaste with radioactive material. Like, are you kidding me, man? So, he gets accused of this and he's I don't even know if he's alive But he was incarcerated for decades. Oh, that's nuts. He might still be alive. That is so my It's um It just seemed

I I haven't really dived super deep into this, but it really looked like they just went after him. And that's not now was he was he just that unstable and he was like getting kind of crazy and I don't know but I don't I don't think so. It seems really wrong what they did to him. It's so wrong. You hear of these historical, you know, Galileo type case, people who seek truth and then they get persecuted by the establishment and then you hear stories like that, modern stories and and UFOs. Well, we we like to think, oh, we're so

much better now. Like we're not any Yeah. The problem with our country, our world, is that we like to tell ourselves we live in a democracy and we we like to tell ourselves, oh yeah, we got natural rights and government rights and and so the problem then becomes for those people who've always controlled things. It's like, all right, how do we deal with this? Oh, we deal some good public propaganda, create public relations. You know, Edward Bernay's nephew of of Sigman Freud who creates that whole industry for massive public manipulation. And so

that's okay. Check. Uh and then all these other things to get around the uh formal restrictions on their un untrable pursuit of power. And so it's just a game, you know, it's like all right, we have this pretend That's really what it is. And both parts are true. Like we we u we have certain democratic elements to our world. Okay. Um but ultimately we all kind of see it's it's very tightly guided and and and and

in a social organization and ours is it always has been anytime you have concentrations of wealth that are going to be unequal and it's since we for 12,000 years since we both started collecting ourselves into societies that's always been the case, you're going to have hierarchy. Sorry, but there's just it's inevitable. And those people with the money are going to control things. And so they never give and they're just it's like, how do we

work our way through this system now? How do we manipulate the system to keep it going? All right, let the people think they've got freedom. Good for That's what they do. Yeah. It's like the And we're surprised when we see that there are these injustices happening today. It's like that shouldn't be. Yes. Yeah. It's a it's a weird, you know, it's like the left is always talking about, you know, government overreach and then the right's talking about, you know, corporate overreach. Uh and uh you Yeah, it used to be the opposite, by the Yeah, it used to be the opposite, which

the left used to talk about the government overreach and Oh, no. The the corporate overreach and the right used to talk about government overreach. Exactly. Kind of like switched around. They have. And then and and and now it's it's just a sort of seessaw where you know the the only constant is the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. But it's a sort of hypnotic like, you know, rearranging the deck chairs in the Titanic or something. but I was thinking about our conversation yesterday. We talked about, you know, this amazing history of unidentified submersible objects. You have this incredible chronology. One

case that you've covered before that, which I think connects to us, is uh the Pasigula case where you have these two fishermen who were abducted. I didn't realize this until recently. Pasigula was uh uh right next to the uh largest production of nuclear submarines at the time in the US. That's that's right. I don't know if it still is, but that's right. And um actually, well, that's a good case. And and um in the second volume of my study, which will cover the 1970s and 80s. So

this? How do we process this is and so they totally convinced the law enforcement there that they were honest and sincere." So it and you know and and for many years Kell Parker just kind of disappeared for a while. He he reappeared toward the end of his life. But Charles Hixon did lots of interviews and like you know I' I've watched the guy. I've listened and read his interview transcripts. He's I think he was telling the truth. You it's fascinating. Yeah. Do you ever um does naval surface warfare crane ever come up for you? Are

you familiar with that facility? Not related to the glowar bit is it? Or I don't know if Well, you actually reported on that. You did as part of Richard Dolan intelligent disclosure like and subscribe. Maybe I use different terminology. You you talked about well I think this guy Randy Anderson who I um interviewed who went deep into an underground military base which you've you've Yes. No, he's he is fascinating guy. He is fascinating and um you know that was not really on a lot of people's radars that complex at the time. I think

it's still there's very little. You're talking about the thing down in near in Puerto Rico in the uh No, I'm getting mixed up. 2014 2015 it was taken down underground to this and then taken to a skiff that's an off planet technologies. Oh, I never took notes on I don't think so. I should probably revisit this. Well, yeah. I don't know. Well, it's a complex that's it's a complex that's very interesting. I have, you know, a couple of Navy friends and they say some spooky stuff goes on there. So, I'm gonna I'm gonna data mine you about this when we're done talking. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do it. Okay. Um, well, Richard, this has been

an absolute honor. Uh, yeah, I can't thank you enough for your time and uh, yeah, I mean, you're just an absolute wealth of knowledge. I love talking to you, man. You are you're very easy to do this with and, uh, I you're a wealth of knowledge in your own right. Like, your knowledge of uh, like World War II era stuff. Very, very impressive. I really enjoy hearing you talk. Standing on the the shoulders of giants that's what we all do. Yeah. Yeah, we said that before we started or but it's true like that's all we ever do

we stand on. You asked me who some of my inspirations are. I'm going to tell you right now. So, when I started with before before I got into UFOs, uh I was into a couple of academic guys that I really love. Max Vber, great sociologist from a century ago, was very very important to me. Still is. Uh his his ideas still resonate with me. His whole idea of rationalization of the world. I think about this a lot. Age of disenchantment. Yes. Exa. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, that whole thing I was 21 years

old when I first read VBER and I read him talking about disenchantment of the and that's what that hooked me. So, it's kind of cool that you mentioned yeah, a lot of other kind of uh important thinkers of the past, I guess. But within within UFOs, uh, I'm I'm like an admirer of a lot of all the o OGs. you know, Donald Kho was probably number one in that. I went through all of his books very carefully. Um, James and Coral Lorenzan of APRO, um, very huge admirer of them. And

report on unidentified flying objects which was flew in the face in many ways of the official Air Force position. He he ran Project Blue Book. He was in a position to talk about this and he's making it clear throughout the book. It's like yeah we were baffled by this. This scared the hell out of us. This was amazing. That blew my mind. Like again and again and again. Very uncomfortable. So what ends up happening, uh, Kho is the guy who writes all about this. He brings this out because he was in touch with Rupelt and and Rupelt was on board with all of the kind of pro-UFO um, uh,

public statements right up until around I think the middle of uh, early 1958. Okay, so for 56 and 57 he was gung-ho. Uh starts to become a little cold in 58 and Kho's noticing what's up with Rupelt and other people like what's up with Rupelt? Well, he was working at Northrup at the time and he was under pressure and he ends up in 1960 publishes his second re his revised version of his book which all he ended up doing was he

tacked on three chapters at the end of it. Ah, and the the chapters are I mean written in a completely different They're very like the the original book is very like it's measured. It's mature. The three chapters tacked on is like smoric and goofy and just he's he's he's uh smearing people including Kio and just like very unlike uh the writing that preceded it as if he was coerced or pressured.

Yes, that's right. and he publishes that and he trashes UFOs at the end calls it I think the space age religion or myth myth of the space age and then he dies7 years old it's crazy well you there are other cases like that you have you know Philip Jay Corso you know he had 24 hours to edit the day after Roswell written co-written by William Burns Jay Burns and and he had written another thing you know Dawn of a new age or whatever and and so you have this like managed version and then this more more pure

version. And we talked about Aztec earlier, William Steinman. He was a employee at one point. He was he was an employee at at Yeah. And they were he was pushed out because of his his UFO research and could never get a job in aerospace after uh writing that book, which I would love to vindicate. I think that is a a great UFO research book. Yes, it is. It is because Wikipedia says that the, you know, Aztec thing is a hoax. You know, he you throw the baby out with the bath Yeah. Before the Ramsies rehabilitated,

Steman did wrote a really big fat book on it. An amazing book that covers all sorts of interesting stuff around MJ12. And he sure did. Yeah. So, um yeah, I talked with Simon one time and I really really uh I liked him a lot. There all kinds of stories like all kinds of really crazy stories that come out. Um other people I've admired and continue to admire. Um, one of them is still alive. Her name is Linda Moltino. Oh, yeah. Linda, Linda is a one-off. There's no

one else like her. She is one of a kind and uh she's brave. She puts herself out there all the time. She's investigated. She uh I just admire her. And and by the way, if you ever get to hang out with her, just let the lady talk. She has got the like more amazing personal stories because the thing about Linda is all the older guys always like Linda. Like all the military guys.

Well, she's brilliant. No BS about her, but they they feel that they can talk to And she listens and she's and she's brave. And so she's collected all of these amazing encounters. Like some of them are just kind of crazy. And I I just like I sit and I just listen. I just listen. Uh I've been really lucky that I can get to to do that with her. She's uh one of a kind. An amazing amazing resource,

a gem of a human being in uh our field. Um I don't know a lot of other people I've really uh truly admired. Tim Good is one. I I got to know Tim a bit and um he's he's not he's not well these days and I I I wish him the best. He must be a little over 80 at this Yeah, about that. Yeah. And um he's abs he's just retired, but but Tim was a real gentleman and a a really a gent a gentleman and a smart guy. Um this is the field of UFOs. Like I I

look back and I think what a what an amazing little ride I got to have just just because I I thought I got the bug and I thought I would write a book and I get to meet these people. Stanton Freriedman was another one. Although Stanton I'm just going to say this uh always liked him, always respected But Stanton was a little bit of a gatekeeper with me when I first broke into this field. Really? I will say that. Yes. You know, it's he didn't he didn't sort of just give you it was all about Bob Lazar. Oh, because you were you expressed genuine interest

in those anti in 2001. So, uh I still had nice black hair, big round glasses. I had all that going on. So, I did my first uh my my first public appearance was actually in Laughlin, Nevada in March of ' 01. And my second one was right after 911. And it was in St. Louis and Stanton was there. We had like honestly probably like 15 people in attendance at this whole thing. Like I flew out there. Stan was there, a couple of other folks.

How old were you at the time? Uh 39, I think. I just turned 39. Yeah. So, uh and you know, we didn't there's no social media, so things were slower, you know. I two appearances in a year. I was like, "Wow, that's great." Um so, I mean, I'm there and Stan like I'm sitting alone with him and he's checking me out. He's like, "Who is this guy?" Because I just written a a book, big fat book, and uh he's like, "So, what's your opinion on Bob Lazar?" And

the fact was I didn't really have one. I mean, I didn't know enough. I had spent the last five years just trying to figure out from 1941 to 1973. It was like, Lazar, are you kidding me, man? I I didn't really know yet. And I was, and by the way, I was scared out of my mind entering the UFO field back then because I knew I wrote this like it was a good book on the early part of the the cover up, but like I at when I published that book, I knew nothing

about the 1980s and 1990s. I knew I didn't have time. I didn't have time. So I was afraid like people are going to ask me all these questions and I don't know what I'm going to say. And and Bob Lazar was one of them. I was aware this was a big thing, but I didn't I hadn't really spent enough time to And so and I resented though Stan like I knew where he was coming from. He wanted me to come down against Lazar and I was like, you know, don't I I think I said like I'll decide to send my own time. Mhm. Well, that's right.

And I let him know like you you can't don't bully me, man. I'm not going to take to it. Uh we we always had a fine and cordial relationship. I wasn't really close with Stan like other people were. Uh but, you know, I I I think he learned to respect me over time. It took him a little while. One one thing was he realized like cuz everyone's attacking him over MJ12 and and he realized, oh, Dolan's kind of like okay with MJ12. So, he he suspected I was kind of an ally there. Uh-huh.

The the other thing I was just going to say about Stan though, uh, and this is a bit of a problem, the fact that he was so hardcore against Lazar to me signified a larger problem. Which is that look, you go to research Great. In fact, and it's really good that you did that. But why in God's name would you think the story stops there? Yeah, of course. All right. So, you have the craft. It It's obviously going to be studied. Yes. under great secrecy. Yeah, that's a

So, let's look for some stories here. And and he just always seemed to like shoot them down. Well, it's kind of intellectually disingenuous to say simultaneously I believe they're see covert reverse engineering programs and then also say the one guy with probably the most coherent story around having worked on a craft is 100% wrong. You have to think probabilistically. And so I give it give it some probability above zero if you think the first thing and he fixated like on the education

on the education because he was educated at MIT and it was personal I think I think he was like what did I do to get my degree at MIT I think that's exactly a little ego yeah it yes I think so and and he kept using the word fraud over and over again and I'm just like this is not helpful right and there is something that happens in with UFO research too where by that time I think Freriedman he had gotten in with I don't know probably a lot of you know interesting characters in government and he was very good friends with Bill Moore

William Moore he was good friends Bill Moore who admitted at at muon in the late 80s that he you know helped with the mess up Paul Benowitz Moore I'm not going to defend or attack him but Moore always said and and and Greg Bishop wrote about this in a really good book called Project Beta that's amazing Moore said I allowed my I've allowed myself to get involved with those people because I believed I had the ability to separate the from the candy as he put it. So he he thought, at least this is his his explanation, that he he was going to deal with these

people because he wanted to get to the holy grail himself, And Bill Moore was the uh the hot shot UFO researcher of the 1980s. Yeah. People so often forget. and it was Robert Hastings, by the way, who in my opinion is probably more than anyone else responsible for the takedown of Bill Moore. was Hastings. If you go back through the old Muon journals of the late ' 80s, I wasn't involved in the field, but you know, you can read the journals. Hastings was on, he was on more, he knew that Moore had intelligence connections. He knew it and he sniffed it out. And I and I

personally think I'm sure others know this better than I do, but I think that Moore by July of 1989 when he was at the Muon Symposium there, uh the gig was up like he couldn't there was no way he's going to keep this going anymore. So, he just kind of came out. That's what I think. H that's fascinating. Yeah. You also have you have the guy Chase Brandon who wrote Cryptos the I think he was working on a script at one point with Stanton Freriedman and so you have these interesting Oh yeah. with Stan with these interesting sort of overlaps where in the beginning you start off

super reverent and iconoclastic and then maybe you get soft or something. Yeah. Thanks for bringing me back to Stan. That was all I was going a little off there. But yeah, um I mean I having said all of that, look, I admire and and always respected and liked Stanton Friedman and his his contribution to uh what we where we now are at is extremely And uh but you know, like I I once read Marilyn Monroe couldn't cook. You're going to hold that against her? You know, she's Marilyn Monroe. Uh everyone's got their things where we're not we're not 100% perfect.

Yeah, of course. and uh and and so but yeah, Stan was someone that was important to me and um anyway, I'm kind of tailing off here. No, I I love it. This I could talk to you for hours. Well, uh uh Richard, this has truly truly been an honor and uh hope hopefully we can do it again at some point and uh thank you for doing everything. Go subscribe to Richard Dolan Intelligent Disclosure on YouTube. This is on Spotify and Apple too or I think so. You know, I'm not that good at uh at organizing. Wherever it is on social media, but I

know it's on YouTube. I check it out on YouTube. Buy his new book on USOS. Volume one is out. Two and three are coming. Uh it's amazing. And buy all his other books, too. He's written some incredible I don't know. UFOs in the National Security State. Yeah. Yeah. They're all like little babies of mine. They're I love them all. Uh and um I The thing I love most is probably writing the books. I mean, YouTube is fun. Yeah. Uh, conferences, talking with people is fun, but I actually mostly enjoy just Well, keep going.

Putting that out. Keep doing what you do. All right. Thank you, Richard.