How The UFO Phenomenon Has Engineered Human History

has been with us for a long time. But that grand vision hasn't arrived yet. If you think the apocalypse is lingering 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating. Yeah. So, it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet. >> Jason Simosa runs one of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs. >> I think one of the things people really struggle with is can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology [music] that could imitate it.

which is then converted into this organization called Resorts International. It suddenly has a subsidiary which has a private intelligence network called Intertel which is doing very dubious stuff. You know who becomes the controller of Resorts International in the 80s? >> Donald Trump. >> No way. >> You see this sort of conflation of the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue. >> Shifting gears before both of us get The royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans

Adam. He believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer. >> That would be a great end to it all. >> Yeah, yeah, I'm back. >> Revelation is like it's a revelation. New information is coming in. So, how we view the future I think is really important. The [music] lens through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty >> Ignition sequence start. >> How is this possible? >> Nothing too unusual about that.

>> Their existence can no longer be denied. of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs. And you're incredible at explaining things, at breaking things down, really complicated, kind of complex threads in UFology, and also explaining to people, I think, where

they get thrown off most when it comes to UFOs. And it's a it's just an amazing channel. You do all these historical deep dives, and so I'm really grateful to have you, man. >> Thanks, Jesse. It's good to be here, >> I think people on the outside of UFology assume, you know, it's all just kind of, you know, little green men coming from Zeta Reticuli or something. I think you have a much kind of deeper, more complex understanding of the topic. Is that your kind of base case assumption that these are just extraterrestrial travelers?

hypothesis doesn't do justice to the data, but I think one of the biggest issues there is most people, when they see that, they just throw it out. They say, well, if I can't rationalize that data based on the hypothesis I think it should fit. Therefore, [clears throat] I'm not going to take this topic seriously, but in reality, there are other layers you can go to then when you see all of these cases and that's sort of strange what are they doing here? You might be able to go a level deeper in terms of trying to understand it and I think that's where Vallée is is particularly helpful. >> So, what what do you and what does

Jacques Vallée think they are doing >> Well, I'm glad to be grouped together with Vallée. >> I'll tell you what the two of us have >> Yeah, that's right. >> I I think Jacques Vallée looks at those cases and says, well, what is the impact that UFOs are having on society? Okay, so we're seeing a phenomenon and we're seeing the data of that becoming kind of indisputable, however strange it might Uh it's possible that the objectives of that phenomenon may be something more subtle. And so, what he

does is he looks at the the cultural impact of UFOs over time. And what impact does that have on human belief systems? And therefore, what can we assume the motivations might be of the beings that operate this thing? And by the way, it may well be and I think he said this recently in the the James Fox thing that he did, we may be engaging with an artificial intelligence, which in turn has been created by a non-human intelligence from another planet. >> The current segmentation of the data hinders any serious [snorts]

into what appears to be an extra-terrestrial phenomenon empowered by advanced artificial intelligence. >> So, it could be the case that there's sort of layers to this as well. But, what impact is this huge vast system having? Because obviously there's been a huge investment to create this thing which continually reappears and does all these things. So, what could the motivations be? And I think that's the angle he goes down. >> Yeah, so it's like humans and human belief systems are the end product.

>> They're not like some incidental result of another thing that's going on. >> The the the intended effect is actually to create mythology in some ways. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and he talks about how symbols and mythology may exist at a level that's kind of a a level down from our normal discourse and that those changes can be quite profound over time. Um so yes, it could be that a slow shift in how we perceive ourselves and the world around us could be the intention. >> So then you have to view that mythology that gets created through kind of a

suspicious hermeneutic. You have to say, "Okay, you know, if we start to talk about environmental destruction and nuclear war and all these things, maybe taking those things at face value isn't the best idea. I mean, maybe they are to be taken at face value. Maybe these beings are coming from another planet and they're saying you're destroying yourself, you're on the eve of the the apocalypse or whatever. Uh and then and then maybe there's some intended effect that you know, maybe that's they know that that narrative is charismatic and so they'll give it to to

but they're actually sort of, you know, messengers of deception. >> Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big thing, the the message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time. Like if you read the Old Testament prophets, so much of it is the doom and gloom of what's about to come. And you know, in many ways we experience that in some form throughout history but that grand hasn't arrived yet. >> Um and it's it's this is one of the huge challenges and I think this is why this idea of deception is so important is how

am I supposed to delineate between what this phenomenon is trying to generate in terms of our human culture and what we're trying to achieve potentially in response to it. Because when you get to this point where we're questioning whether or not our beliefs and our thoughts are our own, you kind of collapse into this solipsism, you know, and it doesn't become very helpful. So >> or radical Cartesian doubt. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, like how am I supposed to figure out what I'm supposed to be thinking? >> Right? It's a little bit too deep. Um so, I don't know what the answers are there in terms of what the phenomenon is

trying to achieve, but I think certainly the everything we encounter is an extraterrestrial being and every single experience should be taken at face value is maybe too simplistic an approach because on balance it appears to be very >> Mhm. And yeah, apocalyptic I believe there's a what's that uh it's like uh when prophecy fails was this like, you know, in the the '50s there was this cult created in Ohio and it the the the cult creation seems to be this thing in

>> Yeah, I mean, whether it's the intention of the phenomenon or not to create those cults, they do appear. >> And you know, this is one of these things where belief systems can spawn quite extreme outcomes because you know, if a group of us are experiencing something that feels truly phenomenal and no one on the outside can even interact with that on an experiential level, our ability to have coherent dialogue with the outside world completely collapses. And so, what happens is you get this little bubble of of experience, which just begins to go off on its own completely,

um you know, separate from the world. So, I think that does happen. There is a a part that, you know, Vallée talks about in Messengers of Deception where he talks about how if suddenly there was a mass appearance of UFOs in the world. So, let's say some sort of event, those cults could suddenly blossom whilst trust in the government collapses. And that's one of the fears that he's got. He suggests that actually we need to be very aware that the current status quo of what's going on on the planet could suddenly change overnight in a mass appearance

event. And uh you know, that could be very concerning. >> Yeah, and I think it's concerning for governments as well. Like uh Jolly West, do you know who that is? He was one of the architects of MK Ultra and he was the head of UCLA psychiatry in LA, actually. And you know, now there are all these theories that he might have brainwashed Charles Manson, really crazy. But he his whole thing was he he was really interested in cult creation. And Philip Zimbardo at Stanford with the Stanford Prison Experiments, like all very similar. A lot of the psychology

that was probably state-funded at the time was it was extremely interested in creation of cults because as you're saying, those are kind of inherently subversive organizations. and so, yeah, it's it's interesting to think of ufology through that through that lens. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah. And some of these cults are seem to be very apocalyptic. That seems to be like a a part of their their whole thing. Like, you know, that the end times are here. We're living in the you know, we're you know, that the it's the

Book of Revelations or something. And >> how that's kind of going beyond just cults now into our mainstream as well, right? You know, we've moved to a point where this idea of the apocalypse, it's kind of just part of how we see the world. You know, is that a progression from the cults or the phenomenon over time, this it creates a sense of desperation and urgency around people which could be manipulated, you know? >> You know, as I like to say, uh if you know that your mom's about to cook dinner, if she tells you that dinner's going to be ready in 1 hour, you're much less likely to go to the fridge.

>> So, if you think the apocalypse is lingering I don't know 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother >> Um so, it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet is if they all become convinced that we're pretty much at the end of things or even if that's lingering in the subconscious. >> Yeah, it could be totally used as a way to kind of pacify people. What what do you think, I guess, cuz a lot of what you cover also are these kind of analytical overlays imposed on the UFO

by, you know, various groups. And so, one would be the extraterrestrial thing. Another thing would be angels and demons and the whole, you know, kind of Judeo-Christian overlay. You want to talk a little bit about that? >> Yeah, I think this is super important. A lot of people are trying to grapple with what the phenomenon is and so, we go from the extraterrestrial hypothesis and we begin to see it doesn't make a lot of sense of what we're seeing. But you can move over and you can start to consider it to be demonic, right? And there is a correlation between occult activity and the phenomenon. That's

these fallen angels that become these demons and that they're deceptive. And that there's this huge end times deception which is designed to trick humanity into moving away from God and science to believe some sort of false A lot of people look at the phenomenon and they say, "It's not extraterrestrial and it is deceptive and it correlates with the occult." And so, what happens is very quickly we snap into this idea that this could be validating the Bible. There's a problem here, which is kind of circular reasoning. You're using this sort of, I think,

relatively useful interpretation of the phenomenon to go back to the Bible and say, "Wait a minute, maybe we should give this book a second look." But actually, underneath there you're also using the Bible to create the argument in the first place. And so, a lot of this comes down to whether or not we take the Bible to be a source of authority on how we interpret things, or whether or not we actually focus on the science of the phenomenon. And I think it's interesting to look through the community. I mean, I I recently made a video on the Collins Elite, right? >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And I was trying my best to steel-man

the argument that UFOs could be demons, because I thought it's interesting and it's good to build that picture. Uh inadvertently in the comments, there's so many people saying, "I knew the Bible was right." All of this stuff. And I'm just like, "No, that's not what I was trying to say." But so quickly people get funneled down there. And it can lead to quite extreme outcomes, because the moment the Bible becomes your epistemological foundation, your ability to look at all the other data shuts down. >> And I I think it's a big issue that we have to grapple with as things >> Who are the Collins Elite? >> Gosh, I wish I could tell you with

program according to Nick Redfern's sources and he met with a bunch of people who validated other sources he And that was 1952 through the Directorate of Plans in the CIA, I think. They unlocked funding and basically about 12 people were employed to look into this full-time. So you have a funded program which I don't think special access programs were a thing then by that terminology, but it sounds like that cuz Directorate of Plans funding is associated with Mockingbird, Gladio, all these like really covert operations.

So you've got that. Program investigating the correlation between UFOs and the occult. You've also got the components. So if you read Vallee's journals, he points out Alonzo McDonald as being uniquely involved in this. And I'm looking at Alonzo McDonald who I know you you had your discussion with the two Erics recently, right? Where he came up. Alonzo McDonald was the staff director Jimmy Carter. And if you look at him, he was I think he was CEO of McKinsey, right? Consulting firm. So I'm like,

Alonzo McDonald isn't going to be invited into a very very sensitive program exploring the relationship between UFOs and the occult. Could be completely wrong, but it just doesn't seem like that would be the case. I began to look into that and ask the question, well what's going on? And if you look into this organization called The Family, The Fellowship, they were founded in the '30s and really took off in the post-war era. Um they basically created this invisible network of sort of Protestant Christians throughout government. And there's a

wonderful book by a guy called Jeff Sharlet or Sharlot. It's a brilliant book where he basically explores this and identifies key members of the family. Alonzo McDonald is is one of them. That network has many people who've been involved in sort of UFO adjacent stuff. So when you go into the Reagan administration, you've got James Baker who's then his staff director. James Baker is also a member of the family. So you know, the Democrats lose, the Republicans win, but you have a consistent presence of the family right at the nexus of power in the executive

And James Baker is also a member of the family and he's involved in a UFO brief briefing according to Nick Redfern. So he's invited in to a briefing that Reagan gets where a bunch of people come in. One's from CIA S&T which is presumably Kit Green and his people. You got the Collins Elite who come in and then there's another group who who do a briefing as well. Alonzo McDonald, James Baker both sat in or had, you know, direct information about the UFO topic within the context

of the White House. So raises the question, this network of how big is it and what do they know? And sometimes if someone is trying to shut down activity in the government related to UFO investigations because they claim that it's demonic and you shouldn't be looking into this don't just assume that it's that 1952 program which has become known as the Collins Elite. It may well be that it's the family which also sometimes I think fly under the same And those are just two components out of three. So just to get us started.

>> Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, this guy Doug Coe was the one of the leaders of the family in the 80s and he would hold this prayer breakfast. >> And all of the presidents would have to attend the prayer breakfast and you know, it almost felt like at the prayer breakfast Doug had more status than the presidents or something. Um so super fascinating. What it's funny when I hear, you know, people talking about aliens as angels or demons, I have like two reactions. One is, you know, if sometime you'll hear like, you know, Shawn Ryan on

Tucker Carlson and like, "Hey, we think it's spiritual. We think it's demonic." And then I say, "Well, what does that mean? What do you Like you're just saying you're just saying an angel or a demon? What is an angel or a demon?" Like you do have these, you know, angel hierarchies and taxonomies from St. Thomas Aquinas and, you know, people historically. But, that doesn't that just has like a big, you know, kind of a lot of baggage attached to it. It has a connotation attached to it, but what does that actually mean? Would be my kind of challenge to those people. And then I would have a kind of equal and opposite

challenge to the people who say that angels and demons definitely have nothing to do with the conversation. And the challenge there would be like, there's probably something You know the concept Lindy? Like, which is, you know, how long an idea has survived is basically it's kind of value to society and it's also determines its expected future age. And so Plato and the Bible are probably more valuable than like, I don't know, the Pet Shop Boys or something. You know, some like random contemporary

thing that's just not that old. And so, uh you know, you're seeing a thing, you know, angels and demons have existed for thousands of years. Uh you know, they are these sort of, you know, they play tricks on you or whatever and they they smell like sulfur. Like there are all these different like attributes of them and some of the attributes seem to match up with some of these things. Like you talk to Jacques Vallee, he'll be like, "Yeah, like you you want to get rid of this thing if if, you know, you if you're, you know, a

constant experience-er or an abductee or Um and he often talks about fallen angels himself. >> So, I think there's this kind of two-pronged like, "Wait, like you can't just end the conversation on angels and demons for those people." >> And then there are like the, you know, super secular people who just want to like entirely throw that out. And I'm like, "Wait, that seems like an important possible overlay." >> Yeah, I think the key thing here is you know, we need to look at all the experiences from history. The moment you realize this phenomenon's real, the next

question is how long's it been going on. >> And then it turns out our entire history, all our mythology is mentioning references to these beings. >> We need to take it seriously. From all religions, right? From all of these documented experiences. The pitfall comes when we cease to look at these experiences as like, "Okay, this these people believe this, they had this experience, they documented it, we can take it relatively seriously." To these 66 books describe exactly what's going to happen in the future and none of the other holy texts out there do. >> And that's the lockdown where you either remain open to the data or you get

locked in. And I think one of the issues we have is is is terminology, unfortunately. Angels, demons, these are Yes, the Judeo-Christian thing is out out of fashion now, but they're Judeo-Christian terms. And it may well helpful for us to consider whether we try and rename those. >> Well, I think it would be fascinating to somehow find some common Joseph Campbell style underpinning between the religions where there's always some consciousness chain between man and God. >> And so you have the devas, you know, in

what what these these phenomenon tend to try and represent anyway. So, there's useful terms you can connect with very quickly with. The challenge we have is the moment you start to use those Christian terms again, people's ability to think clearly just switches off. Not all people, but you know, it can happen. >> Well, then it you could just say it's like it's it's these things are mythologies and and Christianity is is a mythology just like some of these other mythologies and and then and then Christian but then Christianity for whatever reason seems to have this, you know, charismatic very helpful effect

for like more people. Like it scaled better than a lot of these other things. And then you have to ask why and I don't know and >> Oh, you know, this is so interesting. I remember when I was losing my faith and I had to go and answer questions to the people who'd been teaching me about the world of Christianity. >> Yeah, cuz let's back up for a second cuz you have a very interesting just origin story. Do you want to tell that to people and then and then get into this? >> It's a great day for me. I finally have an origin story. I feel amazing. Um yeah, I mean I I became a Christian at the age of 19. Uh kind of out of nowhere. I mean, all the

people who knew me growing up would never have imagined it would have happened. Um but it began to fall in place for a variety of personal reasons, you know, the way I was seeing the world was this is a very dark place where there's a lot of problems. Kind of like an eschatological stage for the Bible to step onto, you know, I began to see the world that way. And I was looking for spirituality. And unfortunately, I looked at, you know, various other pathways, you know, sort of Buddhist and Eastern spiritualities. Pretty cool for someone at my age at that point. And I looked down those avenues and unfortunately,

every time I did, there was always a price associated with, you know, learning that information. So, it kind of turned me off, but it doesn't mean that those things don't have value. It's just in that moment. But eventually, I I became quite despondent. I prayed. I said, you know, "Look, whoever you are, mysterious cosmic force, help me cuz I can't seem to find the truth." Two weeks later, I watched a video about the Bible and you know, despite wanting to treat it with scorn, I found myself enlightened by it. Very much like you're saying, right? There's there's this charismatic effect that comes out of the Bible. And it is

incredibly beautiful, and particularly the Sermon on the Mount. You know, I I read that, and I found some of the things that Jesus was saying were so profound, and it not even like the word profound makes it sound like I discovered some esoteric mystery. What was so wonderful about it is it was actually just common sense in terms of how you view people and their behavior, and you know, what does it really mean to be good or to be evil? Um he sort of cuts through the conversation in a fresh And uh all the eschatological stuff that came with it about this deception, the

end times. Because of the way I was thinking at the time, I was like, that makes sense. This seems beautiful. I met Christians who were wonderful people, and I snapped in. You know, after a while you stop trying to rationalize whether you are going to believe in it. You start getting on with it. And as I did, I found it to be a, you know, amazing experience. Um I was so invested in it. I was training to become a preacher uh for for many years, and that was going full throttle until I was about to go and get full theological training. And for a church

like the one I was in, the money involved in that is is a lot of money. And uh very wise man called Viv Whitten, I can see him in my mind's eye. He was a wonderful guy. And he said, you know, you should actually just pause here. Take a year, go get a normal job. I'm 25. All I've ever done at this point is be in this environment every single day of my life constantly. So, I went and got a job in a call center, which is [clears throat] real shock to the system. It [laughter] really was. You know, I like I was up in one of the most deprived towns in England in this call

center, meeting the most wonderful people, but I just spent 3 years studying theology, philosophy, and you know, being in a Christian bubble. It was really weird. And I just began to lose began to lose the grip of what I what I thought I'd believed. And I spent a lot of time in and trying to figure out, can I really prove this to be true? You know, I I I believe Jesus rose from the dead, but I'm I'm beginning to doubt that. How do I prove that? Cuz I need a bedrock here, an epistemological foundation. So, that next time these doubts come, I can just deal with them.

Because it was pretty shocking suddenly wondering whether I was going to continue my whole life was in this And uh eventually, no matter how far I went in terms of proving the genuine historicity of large chunks of the Bible, knowing the incredible moral value it had brought to my life, I couldn't prove that I was in communication with God, that the Bible was literally inspired by God, or that Jesus had risen from the dead. I I believe there's a mystery there about what happened with Jesus. I think he was a astonishing individual. And that kind

of gets back to what I was going to say a moment ago, which is that I realized of all the millions of amazing pieces of literature that have been written in our, in our human history, surely one of them's got to be the best. And you know, it may well be that at the very top of that stack, you've got, you know, the Platos and the Gospels, and you know, these books that just, you know, you you you read the original dialogues with Socrates, you get a somewhat similar feeling that you get from some of the Gospels. When he talks about how wisdom starts with recognizing that you know

nothing. You know, that's it there's something there. There's You can see some of it in Confucius. You can see it in the Gospels. It's it's all kind of popping up at the same time in human history, and it's all beautiful and So, I kind of reached a point where that was that. And uh later on, entering UFO world, I I found all of that to be very useful background, but now especially as things are accelerating with the discussion, you know, people are talking about UFOs more than they ever have. I don't know if you know this, but

the UFO subreddit, in 2017, when the New York Times article came out, it had 70,000 people on it. After that article, now it's 2026, there are 4 million people on that subreddit. >> It's wild, okay? So, I always say to people, it doesn't matter whether you believe this stuff or not. There's a wave coming of people having to engage with this because it's kind of like the cult thing, right? There's a subculture bubbling up here, and people are beginning to engage with it, and they don't have the answers or clarity they need. We do have these old religious

And what if we end up using those and kind of trapping ourselves in a framework about how we instead of letting us see whatever this unbelievable thing is? >> But then the meta view also is like if you have this almost like social contagion around the thing, you almost have to be skeptical of that as well. >> And like realize that {quote} "disclosure" is just a personal process. It's just something that an individual goes through themselves. It's not some line in the sand like it's actually some sort of seeding of one's

own spiritual authority to some other group to say that they can give you a bunch of documents, and then that you know, that that somehow provides meaning for you. Like what is it? Who cares? >> And on some level like I you know, I want it to happen because I think you know, um it'll move the Overton window, and you know, you'll have young people able to ask these questions, you know, these things can be taught in academic settings. All of those things would be amazing second-order effects of Trump releasing documents. But the idea that that's somehow going to like give you

know, somebody meaning in their life is insane. >> And that's sort of like some people's orientation towards the thing. >> Yeah, 100%. Yeah, there's this fixation on the information we don't have and the injustice that we haven't received it. So, we become convinced that as long as I can get that information out, everything's going to be solved. >> It's so funny, and it's so funny to see like some government official who's clearly doesn't even think about UFOs will make some offhand remark about some, you know, a hybrid breeding program or like a certain base where

they saw a thing and you'll see somebody on Twitter and they're like, is this disclosed did we just get it? And I'm >> are you following sports? Like what are you doing? Like who cares? >> Dude, that person doesn't know anything. They're doing the thing because of their own cynical, you know, motivation. They want to distract from a thing or they would it's opportunistic or whatever. So just, you know, again, I think there are second order kind of knock-on effects that are positive. >> And so maybe you should view it through that lens, but if you're like really pumped about it personally, like maybe

>> I think that's right. And yeah, exactly. There's nothing to disclose because the government they might have an asymmetric an asymmetric data set, but they don't have some, you know, monopoly on, you know, how the world works. That's just our metaphysics or something. Um you just mentioned two very interesting names that we should give, you know, maybe a broader audience who's not mired in UFO world a little context on. >> Neil McCasland uh is a a general who ran

the lab where the Roswell wreckage was rumored to have been taken at Wright-Patterson and he ran the the the Air Force Research Laboratory and then Tom DeLonge is the Blink-182 frontman. >> Who would have thought those two things would go together? >> How did they come together? What give me give us the context. >> Oh man, yeah, this is the whole story that that got me like into this in a big way uh because it sounds preposterous and every time I try and you know, recently one of my best friends he's getting into this topic and he's like, I've got this long drive coming up. Can you suggest some podcasts? And I was like, you got to listen to the Tom

DeLonge thing. And he's you know, I can tell in his mind he's like, what are you on about? Seriously? But the story is is kind of unbelievable. I mean, essentially DeLonge I think had become deeply interested in this from a very young age. There's there's video footage of him talking about this. You know, you're you're kind of wondering if he's even started Blink-182 at this point. Uh so he was fascinated. And at some point in 2013 he started to build this kind of project about how he would integrate music, media and try and use it to communicate bigger stuff. I

think it's a natural consequence of being in a band for so long and wanting to find better meaning and being interested in a topic. Um at some point he began to make connections and meet people, you know? And I think that actually happened relatively early. Neil McCasland and and the people that come later, that's 2015, 2016. But Peter Levenda, who was someone who worked closely with DeLonge, he said by the time he joined, which was November 2014, there were already 10 advisors. So DeLonge already had accumulated a group of people who are advising him on stuff

anyway before this group of people that we tend to focus on. How it happened, um it's it's a question of whether you believe the stories that that came out about it or not, but Vallee, Jacques Vallee, validates the original original story, which is that DeLonge made contact with someone who worked at Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. And that individual he said, look, would you come and sort of be the MC for this special day we're having where it's like a big family event. And he said, yes, as long as I can speak to the individual who who runs the show, right? And get a

chance to sit down. And I think DeLonge I I come from a a sales background as well as a religious one, which arguably could be said to be the same thing. Um but he's he's one of the best sales people you'll have come across. Cuz what he did is he took his unbelievable fascination in the UFO topic and he clearly had asked the question, "What is it that these people really want, right?" DeLonge could have gone in there and said, "I want the answers." and become adversarial and try to squeeze it out. But I think he was very aware that not all people who work in the government

are fundamentally evil. There are lots of people who are moms and dads who find themselves working for these aerospace companies who may be dealing with really complicated stuff and are busy trying to achieve those objectives. And meanwhile, people's perception of them is plummeting because they're unable to communicate clearly about what's going on. I think that's a real situation. So, he went in there and basically said, "Look, um how can we help communicate things in a way that doesn't touch on classified data, helps people understand some of the big concepts around this And I think they were uneasy at first,

but then he sent this individual um a piece of content that the vendor had written and it was all around cargo cults. And the idea being that there were these uh gosh, I didn't even know geographically where this happened, but there was some sort of tribe in remote >> French Polynesia. >> French Polynesia, there you go. And they could see these planes landing and uh you know, dropping off all this cargo and like stuff, food, resources. Um and there was this kind of you know, flight tower and all of these lights and everything. And in their mind, their

response was like if we can replicate what we're seeing, so we make the tower out of trees and you know, put these lights here, maybe we'll also get the thing to land. And that happened, that's documented. Which is hugely interesting in terms of you know, how we perceive many things that were constructed a long time ago and how we might perceive the origins of our various religious establishments. Um so, that suddenly got these people interested. They were like, "Oh, you have a much more sophisticated view on this than the government's hiding

aliens. You're trying to understand the history of human engagement with potentially a phenomena which has been here for a long time. A bunch of meetings start. So, he's flown out to the Pentagon where he meets with someone and they say, "Okay, now you're going to NASA." where he meets with some people. I think arguably you could say maybe Pete Worden who's a one-star NASA general may have been there. Um and there's someone else as well who I I forget their name, but then eventually it leads out towards this this area sort of California. He's meeting with uh I think General Mike Carey was one of the individuals who

eventually introduced him to General William Neil McCasland. Um so, by this point he's accrued multiple advisors. Uh what happens is at this time he's giving all these podcasts. And the first time I heard these podcasts I was like, "There's no way this could be true." He was saying, "I have met the people who are managing the UFO thing. They've started to speak to me, the frontman from Blink 182, and they're telling me all of these things." Okay? And you can tell he's really excited, but he's also a little bit nervous. And it's really interesting cuz it's one

of these things where you listen to it and on paper it doesn't make any sense. No rational person would believe that can happen. But his enthusiasm was really hard to ignore. You know, there's an intuition you can have listening to someone where you think, "Well, maybe you're just deluded, but you definitely believe this." Anyway, fast forward to the 2016 elections. And you know, if you look back at it now and I've documented this as thoroughly as I Podesta and Clinton were talking a lot about UFOs. And people say like, you know, "Oh, they were just talking about

it cuz they were trying to get votes." And it's like, "Are you kidding me?" Uh there's a guy called Dennis Kucinich who was, you know, 2010 election I think. Uh the moment his name became associated with UFOs, this was a former Democratic candidate for the presidency, in a debate stage he was pretty much laughed off stage and his candidacy plummeted. Okay? So, it had been proven in Democratic circles, associating yourself with the UFO topic is uh is not a good thing. So, Clinton and Podesta are talking about UFOs, which is very strange. Podesta's emails get hacked, obviously,

and in those emails, you find a correspondence. I think there were 35 emails back and forth between Tom DeLonge and Podesta's team. There's that meeting where you've got General Neil McCasland and Michael Carey and Robert Weiss, the president of the Skunk Works, along with Podesta and DeLonge. >> And Podesta's Clinton's chief of staff. >> That's right. Yeah, so he's he's he's running that. And you know, along with that, there's a really interesting moment in the emails where one of the staffers, this is also interesting cuz the staffers seem to

understand there's a UFO conversation going on. A lot of these people are connected to the Center for American Progress, which is Podesta's sort of big liberal think tank in DC. And at one point, there's an individual mentioned, and one of the staffers said, "John, maybe we should consider this individual for the UFO project." And you're like, "Okay, so obviously, this staffer and all the other people on the email, including Podesta, and this is mid-2015, I think, already have a UFO project?" We're like far away from the election at

this point. And uh anyway, it turns out Tom DeLonge's been in there connecting with Podesta with all these people, and these conversations really were going on, which was then further validated by Jacques Vallée, someone who has huge questions about that whole thing, by the way. He's big skepticism about what they were trying to achieve. You read his journals, it absolutely did happen. >> Mhm. What what do you think they were trying to achieve? Cuz I think the for me, I know there's a there there underneath the UFO question. Like, I know there's something worthy of inquiry

scientifically there. And then, I think the meta-sociological question that a lot of people who are mired in UFOs right now don't tend to ask is why have we seen this just ridiculous resurgence in popularity? Why is the subreddit of UFOs grown from a few hundred thousand to, you know, 4 million over the course of 10 years? And is that being pushed? Is there some sort of engineered on high UFO disclosure thing happening right now? And and and what would be the

motivation for that? Because you said, you know, you're like, it could this guy be the guy for the UFO project? And by the way, I have personally very little doubt of Tom DeLonge sincerity and his intelligence and actually a long interest and standing interest in organically in the topic. And I think he kind of vigilante like, you know, made a lot of this stuff But it also seems like there was a confluence between that organic interest on his part and then like people in the

government wanting to do something on UFOs. Do you think that was just this stuff has been, you know, we've had this low energy Cold War orientation towards this thing. We've kept it secret for too long. People deserve to know. Or do you think it was a little more cynical than that? Do you have a take there? >> Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really do. I I think in terms of the timing, Jacques Vallée's most recent journals are very I you know, I was digging into DeLonge as my first foray into this topic in a serious way cuz I was like, if I can prove that this is legitimate, then I

can, you know, sit on top of this and say there seems to be a there there. And I'd always been trying to figure out when did the thing really start? Where did this come from? You get to Vallée's most recent He documents early in 2013 rumors coming out of the White House. And these rumors are essentially saying they're planning to do something called not disclosure. Okay? So there's some sort of distinction there in terms of like, we're not going to go all the way with trying to reveal all the awful things, but we want to get some information out there.

cases with seven levels of analysis. This is probably the biggest study of UFO data ever. And one of the conclusions that Vallee hints at two or three times in the journals is that you know, an existential threat may have been detected. And what that is, he doesn't go any deeper into it. I don't know if it's because he doesn't want to or he And it doesn't mean we have to believe that by the way, but you know, it's very interesting that Vallee who is I think generally quite skeptical about, you know, the modern disclosure movement which has involved claims that something's coming releases his journals

in a way that validates this. And he would have had time to remove that if he did if he changed his mind about, you know, all of that. So in terms of that, I think there is some urgency, whatever that is, okay? I don't know what it I made a whole video about like 20 different explanations it could be. But then that then leads to the Obama administration basically saying, "Look, we need to try and get information out in some degree." I think these two things could be connected, but I think DeLonge was already in the orbit of those conversations because he'd been on

knowing and that driving him to be quite so as ambitious as he was. But I also think there's another dynamic here which funnily enough connects back to the Collins Elite thing. Which is that you know, there have been presidents who have been on the inside of the UFO information, at least it seems that way. The research I've done Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush all seem to have received briefings. The moment you get to Clinton, I think it's pretty demonstrable he didn't. And he had to fight to try and get information and he he used all of his resources and still couldn't get what he wanted.

coming into office really weren't connected to the establishment of the United States. They really were in many ways outsiders who'd started to move inside, you know. Clinton attended a Bilderberg meeting once before he was elected, so that's fine. But that's very different to Reagan, to Nixon and to all of these kind of Bush family. >> I don't know. I would think I think of Nixon as kind of an outsider. >> Yeah, from Whittier, California. He had a chip on his shoulder, was wanted to do force reduction in the CIA, who was always against him. >> And was ousted, I think in a very

artificial way. >> Oh, that's interesting. Okay. >> I Reagan I could see a little bit more. George H. W. Bush, for sure, insider. No doubt about that. Um the Clinton thing's really interesting cuz he was interested in UFOs, I believe, and I think he spoke with Ron Pandolphi, who is You got to talk to him. He's a very interesting Uh who was I think head of the CIA's weird desk. >> And Ron Pandolphi told Clinton he should get briefed by a guy named Bruce Maccabee, who'd written about a book

about UFOs and the FBI. He was a long-time civilian researcher. And so, what's really interesting about that dynamic is you're getting a guy in the open-source world to brief a president on UFOs. >> Uh which is very strange. >> Yeah, it is very strange. Yeah, that's one of the most I mean, it was one of the reasons I ended up looking into Pandolphi in a big way was I was mystified by the president of the United States is trying to get at UFO information. And I mean, if you really look at the Clinton story, he really is. Like, he uses all

of his different people, every angle to go and investigate this. >> And Lawrence Rockefeller is very close with the Clintons and trying to get them to do disclosure, get them more interested constantly. And yeah, that was a thing. >> Huge initiative there. And most people don't even realize that this is like history, you know, it's documented. >> There's a photo of Hillary Clinton, and I think she's at Camp David, and she's holding a book, and it's a book by University of Arizona physicist Paul Davies, and the book is titled Are We

>> Clearly exploring this stuff. >> Yeah, she was interested earlier, I think. And there's uh there's evidence during the original Clinton administration she might have been trying to open doors as well. Uh but in terms of the Pandolphi thing, essentially, Clinton's science advisor is trying to get a briefing. And what happens is that goes to the place in the CIA where there is UFO information. It's called the weird desk. It's uh it's a colloquial term for a function which has moved around many times. And uh at that point, uh a guy called Dr. Ronald Pandolphi was was running the weird desk. And um

So, Bruce Maccabee released the story, like you said, he's this Navy physicist, an bright guy, who's obviously has done phenomenal research. And he gets a call from Pandolfi basically saying, "Look, I need you to go in and give give the lecture you gave to the CIA once. I want you to give it to uh the science advisor." And he's like, uh "Well, I need time to prepare and make sure I've got all this." And he's like thinking, "Maybe I've got 2 weeks to get everything together." He's like, "It's tomorrow at 8:00 in the And so, Clinton's science advisor doesn't even get the CIA guy on UFOs to come in. He sends not even one of his

like lower people, a civilian researcher in with almost no time to prepare. And there's a guy called William the who uh I think had closer interactions with Pandolfi at this time. And he suggested that, you know, really they just wanted to push this away. They didn't want to have to confront what was going on with Clinton. To me, I see a pattern there, which is the former few administrations had been actually stuffed full of quite religious people. Uh some of these Collins Elite types figures, we talked about the family. There's also the Knights of Malta. And they're connected

to a broader establishment that goes back to the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services in World War II. There's a thread through all of those administrations of a similar milieu of people. You got Clinton comes in, he's just this this guy, you >> And uh he wants the information and it's shut down by Dr. Pandolfi, who by the way, his uncle Louis Pandolfi was a founding member of the OSS. Really? Well, according to Jacques Vallee, so, you know, take take the information as you please, but there was an interview with Danny Jones where he kind of goes

off on talking about Pandolfi in detail and that was uh yeah, it's very so anyway, that that fascinated me because if there's an individual who can basically say no to the president, who is he? And uh you know, he appears everywhere in UFO lore and he's uh he's an interesting guy. >> It's fascinating. Yeah. And then you have Obama and I who knows to what extent Obama was actually briefed on the but he seems interested. I mean, he's producing this uh Betty and Barney Hill

>> He, you know, it seems like he's slow dripping out information about UFOs and testing the waters where I think on James Corden he goes there are things in our sky that we know we can't identify and we don't know what they are. And then you know, in this recent podcast he sort of provoked Trump in many ways and said, you know, it's not like they're you know, aliens are real. But like how do you know that, sir? >> You know, the the the the interviewer never followed up on that. >> Um but he said they are real. Which again, I don't know what he's

going off of there. And then he goes on to talk about, you know, Area 51 and how they you know, that's a myth. The idea that we have them like, you know, chained up in the basement or whatever. >> What's so interesting about that is Clinton said exactly the same thing. What a weird thing to zero in on. They both said, yeah, there's nothing underground under Area 51. It's like if I'm asked about UFOs, there's a thousand things I could mention in the 30-second snippet I'm going to give you. >> Thou doth protest too much. Yeah, so all >> strange. And then afterwards

it was so clearly this litmus test. It was like this like let's see how the public reacts. Because he then walked it back and was like, you know, really I you know, I don't I don't know anything you don't know, you know, I just think that it was like, you know, some Fermi paradox thing. Given the amount of, you know, solar systems, you know, there's the likelihood or whatever. >> That to me spells the fact that like he phrased it the way he did deliberately to begin with. The whole thing was staged with this very friendly, you

know, very left-wing interviewer who who who loved Obama. So and it was this rapid-fire questioning thing and the guy just like moved on after that. >> questions are always planned. >> Yeah, they totally. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So like what and then by the way, CIA director, you know, Brennan and his director of national intelligence James Clapper, are showing up in a movie and they are tacitly endorsing the idea that not only have we, you know, are UFOs >> but we've had tracking programs at Area 51, which James Clapper personally

talked about, helped set up, and then uh are tacitly endorsing the idea that we've had a legacy program doing crash retrieval operations, and you know, uh reverse engineering for decades, >> Yeah. Do you think maybe Obama knows a thing or two about this whole thing? >> Did you see the John Greenwald thing where he filed a FOIA, and he got information back which indicated, I can't remember if it's 3,000 or 30, I think it might have been 30,000 references in Obama's documents in his presidency to like UFOs, UAP, AOSAAP,

this like, you know, probably hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars going into actually reverse engineering this stuff. And then what's so weird is like the, you know, you do have people coming out here and there saying I saw a thing and a thing, but you only have one Bob Lazar, a guy who actually, you know, at S4 in 1989 said he worked on the craft >> So you have this like perfectly locked down program that somehow has absurd, you know,

budget, you know, line items attached to And it breaks your brain cuz you're like, what is going on? Do you have a base case of what is going on inside the government here? >> Oh my god, >> no, I have no idea. No, I mean it's it's a total mystery what's really going on. There's so much disinformation as well, which makes it impossible to navigate all of this. Um so once you get beyond the data that that we can see that you've just listed, I mean what can you say? I I think it's there are plenty of people who've come out and and said that we have craft. It seems to be just sinking into our

collective consciousness at this point that we've got some things and we've been trying to figure out what they are, but we haven't necessarily got that far. Some people say that we have. Um that's about as far as we get, you know, before the information starts to run dry. So, I I I um I'm definitely convinced there's something there. Definitely. But, in terms of things I could be high confidence about, they're very limited. >> Yeah, I feel the same way. I I have uh you know, you know, my editors here with me. We we both went to Aztec, New Mexico to investigate the crash there. And I

can't speak for him, but I I came out, you know, kind of skeptical. I came in skeptical and I came out pretty sure that there was a crash there. Because I I I I really for a long time being into UFO stuff, I thought, you know, there was a conflation maybe going on between kind of some anti-gravity lineage of, you know, some exotic propulsion that maybe uh was created in Nazi Germany or, you know, maybe World War II you know, you develop it or whatever and then you conflate it with these alien things and like and maybe that is

DIA rocket scientist involved in ASAP and he's now writing about this stuff and he writes about it like it's some platonic puzzle. Like it's more of like a mystical object than it is something you'd ever even put through a physicist against. And you have the idea, you know, Eric Davis saying there were no physicists on the program. So, maybe like the idea that there are crash which is, you know, at this point that that's like sort of passé in these sort of circle. I mean, Age of Disclosure

discussing this stuff openly. So, then you have to ask like what is the underlying thing? If If that's the tip of the iceberg, the underlying thing has to be much weirder than that. And so, I get I get into like, okay, maybe these are like mystical Maybe these are objects that are far stranger than like physics and engineering could ever, you know, explain. But I don't I don't know. >> Do you think that they're part of a large system? Like like uh maybe the majority of what we interact with is part of a single system, which is kind of artificial intelligence?

>> I I I don't know, but I guess yeah, I'm sympathetic to ideas like that that we're in some sort of control system or something and uh these might be Von Neumann replicator envoys or something of some like larger intelligence. So, they're they are just like the tip of the spear and even gray aliens, which seem to have this very robotic droid-like kind of mandate, where they show up and they go, "Do not fear. Do not fear." And then they insert the thing and they kind of subdue you or

whatever. Like all of that feels somewhat automated. >> And if there are crashes, you say, "Oh, why are they so Why would they fly from light-years away just to crash?" or whatever. "They're so advanced." Well, maybe this is just their Earth homeo- stasis kit and maybe they're, you know, kind of disposable. So, I I am sympathetic to ideas like that. But then we even the Vallée stuff, as much as I think he's just like an incredible godfather and he shifts your perspective in this super healthy way, but he's so

limited. He's so limited. I mean, it's like, what does that mean? AI system? AI control system? It uses intermittent reinforcement maybe, cuz that was the in vogue psychology at the time. Maybe the knows. Who knows? I don't know. >> What do you think? >> Well, I mean, I think at the very least we should focus there because he 260,000 cases like I said, the Capella database that he made and the levels of analysis that he did. Yeah, you're right. I mean, what he's what he's sharing is very limited. I wonder what else is under there and we

should be focusing our attention there. >> The fact that this database exists with that level of analysis and we're all out here. The other day uh and Paulina Zuniga who's done phenomenal stuff for this progress this conversation. You know, she tweeted out read the book of Enoch and I'm thinking I'm just like, "No, this isn't where we need to start. We got to start with the data and what it says." And the book of Enoch should be one of the cases in the database not not how we interpret it. Um so I I do think even though what he's saying may be somewhat cryptic, our focus should be on that huge source

of data and what's under there and maybe some of it is very woo. Maybe there's some consistency to the woo. Maybe maybe the woo is constantly a reflection of who we are and the consciousness that we bring to it. Which is another thing that Vallee talks about actually is this idea that the UFO isn't designed to carry beings from place A to place B, but it's designed to interface with our mind and to take the imagery we have in here into kind of like a dream, right? You know, you see everything throughout your day, you have these experiences. You go to sleep and you mix the experience you

just had with your deep subconscious thought into this whole new thing. That function exists and billions of people use it every single night. What if the UFO does that? And so when we interact with it, we're engaging with the weird robotic beings and the system which kind of seems weird, but with the right person it can get in here and change the way you perceive it completely. >> Well, I think I think that is the case, but then you again you have to employ this radical Cartesian doubt of like what is it intending to do to you and if it can do that in the form of an experience, it could do that in the form

of a data set that it's manufacturing itself as well. science is really well set up to study lower-level biological systems. You know, like I I can study an ant or, you know, or just inanimate material very easily. But like if if I am the ant on the arm of a human being and you're using your own version of science as the ant, like, you know, if we're just like, you know, when we're you have these summoning programs of UFOs, like Skywatchers this kind of modern version of this or whatever. But

it seems like we've been doing this kind of in, you know, special access programs for a while. Like we're just What if we're just like raccoons chewing on the power cables and then they the humans show up and they go, "Stop chewing on those power cables." And then they shut down your sensors and then you're like, "But like, how will the raccoons ever understand what the humans want or why they're showing up when you do a thing when they do a little nuclear baiting or >> You know? >> So, it's the you end up with these like really hard epistemic impasses.

>> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> And then and then and then the meta meta thing would be the brain scrambling of the data that you're receiving and of these programs that like happens in the individual allows you to grow and then that growing allows you to make like a better connection. Your interface and your processing and your measurement system gets better. >> And then you get to interface more in a way that like actually is comprehensible to you with these beings. But I don't know. I it's it's very complicated. >> It brings me back to what you said

earlier about this idea, what if the purpose isn't to have disclosure, but instead to have some sort of personal evolution experience through interacting with these things? Because then you would understand the system would make your science futile. It would make it impossible for you to get this big objective theory, which we all want because of the way we currently operate as a society. What if the next state of human evolution isn't about that kind of mindset about how we approach things? So, I'm God, you know, it's a big theory, but it's interesting to consider

whether or not it's attempting to force us away from our traditional analysis. >> I think it is. I think the observer observed dichotomy is breaking down. I think the idea of um you know, yeah, like you said, sort of some objective theory of everything is breaking out. Like you're going to see like a sort of maybe not infinite, but somewhat fracturing of reality and theories when it comes to this stuff. I think it breaks our prior epistemics. I think it's an epistemological revolution. It's not a scientific revolution. So, it's like it's deeper than just like you

know, oh, quantum physics. I think it's I think it's more than >> What do you think about the human technology angle? You kind of touched on it there with the anti-gravity stuff from the Nazis and how it makes I think one of the things people really struggle with is trying to grapple with can both of those things be true? Can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it, which that's again something Vallee talks about, which is very, very >> Yeah, you know, in in Secret Machines

and you know, Tom DeLonge's book talks about this as well. Human craft that is derivative of and even if you talked to Bob Lazar and you go deep enough with him, it's not really reverse engineering. It's like parallel engineering. It's not figuring out exactly how the thing was made. It's figuring out how to recreate the thing with prosaic human means. And so then you have to ask, was the thing dropped or donated as a gift or something to accelerate human evolution or you know, to create science that was

that is derivative of or inspired by the thing? And you know, for that you have to go off of kind of, you know, read the tea leaves on people like Philip Corso or you know, I'm obsessed with you know, Thomas Townsend Brown and his anti-gravity research, um, and it seems like he was inspired by, quote unquote, space brothers. He actually engaged in a crash retrieval operation in >> Townsend Brown did? >> Wow, I didn't >> in 1958 in Hartford, Connecticut, that Michael Swords documents. Fascinating. Yeah, and then he goes to, um,

Moonwatch, Project Moonwatch, which was the satellite viewing operation. They were tied in actually with Blue Book at the time, and Robert Friend and J. Allen Hynek, uh, have a piece of this crash at Hartford, Connecticut, and Townsend Brown flashes his credentials. I think he was very spooky. And, uh, he was like, "I'm I'm taking this material." So, he's really crazy cuz I you assume >> It was that that he was able to do that? >> So, you assume that Townsend Brown is an explanation or, you know, a way from

It's It's a rationalization of why we're seeing these things in the sky cuz it's just deep black military SR-71 modern equivalent, easy option. And then you get into Townsend Brown's life and it's like, no, he's claimed he was like kind of communicating with aliens half the time. Like, Agnew Bronson, who was funding him, was really trippy and seemed like he was in contact with >> Um, so it's a get to you to very complicated sort of You end up always with a yes, and sort of answer, you know? It's >> And even going back to the Nazis, right, where people like to say they're the ones who generated this technology, but

you documented in one of your videos Who is the individual who said that we had help from What was his name? >> Uh, Hermann Oberth. >> So, Hermann Oberth is the, um, godfather of, you know, German rocketry and Wernher von Braun's mentor, and there's even a audio of him talking about UFOs, and he said he he they were aided and had help. And I was just in Japan, actually, and there's a guy named Takano Josen, and he met Hermann Oberth, and they discussed UFOs openly. And so,

yeah, he was very interested in UFOs. >> Did he say anything else about UFOs? >> What about Dr. Oberth? the beings actually riding in UFOs. >> It's really just wild. And you did an amazing video on uh Nazi uh UFO-like technology uh as well. And you talk about Richard Miethe. You want to talk about that at all? >> Yeah, I mean all those different stories from the Nazi era very, very

interesting. And it's one of these cases where it's very hard to say that there's no smoke without fire. I can't remember all the names. You've got Miethe, Schriever, Malutzo. there's like four or five other individuals who all claim to have worked on what appeared to be multiple different attempts to build disc-shaped craft. And uh with with varying degrees of success. Uh I think we often end up in an either-or about the Nazis and the technology. They say, "Well, if they developed it, why didn't they use it during the war? Therefore, it can't have happened." Whereas I think a middle

ground is more interesting that they're experimenting with making these for whatever reason. We can get into that later why they may have been inspired. And some of them may have been somewhat interesting and half successful by the time the war was closing out. >> It's fascinating. The video you made is amazing. And it shows, you know, Miethe in '52 gives this uh interview to this French paper. And he says, "If you see UFOs in the sky, they're probably the ones that I designed and were built by, you know, the Haber Mall project and you know, um uh Skoda Works under Hans

deep in, you know, post-World War II, you know, Nazi Germany or maybe it was like '44 or '45. >> And they're saying that they're standing atop this huge saucer-like UFO. Uh in Czechoslovakia, by the way, which is Pilsen, which is where Škoda Works took place and you talk about in this video, which is an amazing video. Everybody should watch it. Um for whatever reason, the US was less interested in Berlin than they were in going to Pilsen, which is where this secret weapons program was

housed for Nazi Germany. >> I think what's really fascinating is there was this rush, obviously, at the end of the war and you see General Patton's army arrive and they steamroller, like you said, to Pilsen before going to Berlin, which is very What's more fascinating to me is the fact that nearly a year earlier the Nazis had planned to get out of Europe and to take all of their sensitive stuff. So, we go in there, we pick up like the Horton brothers thing and Who's the guy who made the reverse >> Viktor Schauberger. >> Schauberger. I always forget his name. Right, we got some Schauberger stuff and

there's this idea that the Soviets got maybe more than they should have got and we got what we got and we divided up the But in reality, there may have been a third part to this, which is the massive acquisition of technology and people and gold and money starting in, well, 1943, but certainly 1944 with the Maison Rouge I think that is really, really important and actually ties into Inderlong's fiction book Secret Machines. He talks about the Maynard Consortium. Uh for those who don't know, DeLong

But if you read it, the Maynard consortium is very interesting because it's this private organization which seems to have a handle not simply on the UFO issue, but a huge amount of power geopolitically as well. A lot of people have been trying to figure out what the Maynard consortium is, and I think I have an answer, by the way, which I can share. And it ties into what happened at the end of the war, so you you want to go in for a long one on >> I want to hear because I I that that's come up a bunch for me, and I'm fascinated by it, and I do think Secret Machines uh hit a lot of

truth and fiction, and it was inspired by conversations with General Neil McCasland, who by the way is now missing, which is crazy. He went missing uh uh you know, from his home in New Mexico, >> after Trump announced that there was going to be some sort of disclosure. >> UFO disclosure, and you have a guy who is the sole source, or not the sole source, one of the few sources for kind of modern disclosure, and a lot of, you know, what came out of, you know, Tom DeLonge's work, and, you know, he's this really high-up general, and if if

'90s, president of Skunk Works, who is responsible for, you know, um the the SR-71, and or sorry, he He responsible for modern stealth aircraft. He writes about an international corporate board of directors that deals with the UFO issue. >> And then Townsend Brown also runs into this sort of, you know, the Caroline Group, this international group of industrialists that seem to suck up all of the exotic tech. >> And so and then you have secret machines, the Maynard Consortium, which

is described very similarly to those two things. So, what is the Maynard >> Yeah. Well, I think I think there's a business that fits the description really well, which we don't talk about very much. But to kind of build the picture of this, I'll I'll give you a bit of a backdrop. So, let's go back to the Maison Rouge meeting, okay? So, this is 1944, I think, August 10th, sometime around there. The Nazis know they're going to lose the war. So, at this point, I think they've they've had the D-Day invasions, there's been Stalingrad, it's not going well. So, Martin Bormann assembles all the leaders of industry into this meeting in

Paris, very secret meeting. They sweep the room to make sure no one can hear what they're going to talk about. And uh basically plan the mass evacuation of German industry, technology, people. And based on documentation that Peter Levenda has seen, they were successful. So, there's a State Department document which talks about how this was in 1945, they'd already realized hundreds of new companies have been set up in Nicaragua and Argentina, and it's all connected to these Nazi industrialists. So, it really So, the question is,

why was that possible? Right? We're at war with these people. We have all these intelligence agencies operating who had information about this. So, how did they get away with it? The people who were at that meeting were, like you said, wealthy industrialists, many of whom had relationships with American and UK industrialists as well. So, you had the likes of Hermann Schmidt, I think, was the IG Farben guy. You have the representatives of Ford and Standard Oil, the German

subdivisions. Their heads were at that meeting as well. And you have people from this Bank of International Settlements, which is this weird transnational bank as well. The important thing and also Schroder. So, Baron von Schroder, one of his people was there. All of those people for 20 years up to this point had had a deep relationship with the Rockefellers, with the Morgans, with Hambros in the United Kingdom. All of these like financial giants and oil giants have been working together. IG Farben and Standard Oil had come to an arrangement

where they would have mutual monopolies before the war. So, Standard Oil would dominate oil across both sides of the Atlantic. IG Farben would do the petrochemical side. And you had agreements between Rockefeller starting a company with the Schroders. So, Rockefeller, Schroder and and company. All of this was happening in the '30s. They also had already partnered on an initiative, which I think blows my mind to realize this was historical. Have you heard of the business plot? >> Oh, yeah. Um but but Smedley Butler. >> Yeah, they were trying to take out FDR.

>> FDR came into government, had his plans for like the New Deal. And so, this group of transnational finance people, Morgan, DuPont, all of these people, and with support and encouragement from their German counterparts, planned this plot. It sounds like fiction, but they were going to take this this general who they had a conversation with and said, "Look, we want you to do this." They're going to raise an army of like 500,000 people and march to Washington and forcefully remove the president from And uh it's true. It's it's history. So, these German industrialists and the

Western industrialists, they were working together. And even as the war began, that was happening. >> Bank was funding the Nazis. >> Which one's the Union Bank? >> Um they I think Prescott Bush was the you know, president of the Union Bank. And then Dulles was, you know, helping out with, you know, some Nazi financing. But you know, >> World War II, yeah. >> My goodness. >> Yeah, he was hanging out in Switzerland and yeah. >> He was connected to nearly every single like German Nazi titan of industry. >> Yeah, and you had, of course, Ford was, you know, very tied in.

>> Well, the wild thing with Ford was when the UK was trying to get into the war, uh they needed to create um engines for their jets for their for their fighter pilots. And uh Ford said, "No, we're not going to do that. We're prioritizing the uh the trucks for Nazi Germany." And this is the dynamic that was going on. And FDR knew this. And he he said to in a in a conversation or letter that he wrote that the financial interests had owned America since the time of Andrew He was very aware that these people had tried to remove him, but they had huge amounts of power. So, the point here is

those industrialists who meet in the Maison Rouge in 1944, they're the same people who have these relationships with all of these people. So, the Rockefellers, all of these big business people can't afford for Nazi industry to fall through. They're highly invested in it through subsidiaries, through Swiss bank accounts. That entire industry, which is there, which is under threat, needs to be evacuated to protect their business interests as a baseline, let alone taking advantage of any technological advances which have happened. So, I I think that's very, very important, but there's another

dynamic here which I I find shocking just to say it out loud. You ask yourself, "Well, if that was happening, what about the intelligence agencies who would surely be monitoring this situation?" But who is running the intelligence agencies in wartime Europe? You know, you just mentioned Dulles, right? So, you've got the Office of Strategic Services, which is run by With Dulles, Donovan's also a Wall Street lawyer. People don't know, there was also another American intelligence agency dedicated to South America, which is the Office for the Coordination of Inter-American Affairs. And you ask

yourself, "Well, who would be the right person to run a vast intelligence agency for South America?" Just turns out to be Nelson Rockefeller. Okay? Meanwhile, you've got the British Security Coordination, which is run by William Stephenson, who's a very interesting individual. Uh he has his offices in Rockefeller Plaza right next to the OSS and Nelson Rockefeller's there, too. And then you've got the Special Operations Executive in the United Kingdom. Again, who would be the best person to run this highly sensitive intelligence network? It turns out to be one of the directors

of the Bank of England, Ambrose. So, what you've got here is a situation where these finance and industrialists are in bed together before the war. During the war, they keep trading. And the very people who should be keeping their eyes on them are running the intelligence networks, which are going to enable them to evacuate all of this technology. Now, that backdrop is very Because after the war, all those intelligence agencies basically get shut down, reintegrated into different So, what are these people going to do with all the relationships that they've developed? Well, there is an organization which was

created initially in 1945 and then rebranded in '47. It's called the World Commerce Corporation. You you'll you'll see it now. If you hear that and you go back to Lavenda, you go back to different books, you'll see it pop up. It is the most bland-sounding organization, very much like the Minaret Consortium, right? Which was, by the way, in the book founded in the late '40s, just like this So, what is the World Commerce Corporation? Well, it's founded in Panama to obscure its foundations. On the board, Donovan, Stephenson, Ambrose. You've got

Dulles doing the legal counsel. There's a whole bunch of other high-powered UK people, loads of OSS people who are out of work. And there's also connections to organized crime, which we can talk about in a minute, and the Nazi underground, This organization had between 250 and 500 subsidiaries after a couple of So, if you look at the Minaret Consortium, one of the big parts of the plot there is that all of its finances and its operations are obscured by these companies which appear and disappear. And that's exactly what you get with the

World Commerce Corporation. A lot of those companies can be tied directly to the drug smuggling and arms trafficking, which people tend to say the CIA did this, which it it kind of did, but it was doing this through private organizations, which all route back to the World Commerce Corporation. So, this is a very interesting organization which appears right after the war, and Rockefeller, Morgan, and all these people are also a part of this, too. >> Fascinating. Yeah. >> So fascinating. Interesting. Do we have

evidence that they had anything to do with UFOs, or it just sounds exactly like the Maynard consortium from a personnel perspective? >> From a personnel perspective, yes. And I think, you know, what's interesting is in the novel, the connection to UFOs is kind of like pretty obscure anyway. >> In this case, I think, you know, what we've got to look at is that Maison Rouge meeting, and whatever the best technology was that was taken out of Nazi Germany, um, would have been relocated somewhere else under the auspices of these intelligence people who had that unique information, right? So, these are the

people with relationships before the war, during, and afterwards, with the unique insights. And one of the people, I think it was Tom Hill, he was one of the UK members of WCC. He said, "The goal was to take advantage of the relationships we'd accrued during the war." And, uh, Peter Levenda, when he briefly touches on it, he says the objective was to facilitate trade between South America and Germany. Okay? That's a very interesting dynamic to have. Another guy, Peter Peter Dale Scott See the guy who writes about JFK?

>> Stated, and yeah. Invented the term deep >> Right, there you go, the right guy. So, he describes it as a private intelligence agency for people like the Nelson, um, like like the Rockefellers and financiers. Mhm. So, very, very interesting descriptions from people who look into this. And what's fascinating is the the bulk of the information I got from this was from a forum online. I mean, it's amazing what some of these people will dig up on forums. They were investigating the World Commerce Corporation purely through the lens of the Kennedy assassination. They weren't looking at this in terms of

UFOs, but for them this organization was critical to that nexus. So, to to to be to be very clear here about the UFO thing. The reason I'm interested is not just because of secret machines, but also because of Jacques Vallee's Messengers of Deception. You might think it's the only book I've ever read, but it had a huge impact on me. And when he's speaking with this guy, Major Murphy, this is one of his key sources in the book. We don't know the guy's real name, some sort of general He's talking with Vallee about

what if it's possible that people created flying saucers during the war. And he points to 1943 and he says, you know, what if someone was experimenting with this technology. It turns out its real advantage wasn't its flight capabilities, but its psychotronic effect. And um he suggests that uh it's not I mean, Vallee then butts in basically and says, um are you seriously suggesting that the Nazis are behind the UFO phenomenon? And his response is, why are you talking about the Nazis? Other people became involved, okay? So, the the the

implication here is that somehow this technology ended up getting worked on by other people. wherever that was, the really interesting stuff presumably got evacuated out. And this private organization appears with huge numbers of subsidiaries. And remember all those shell companies the Germans set up? Presumably could be inter-locking through all of that obscurity. With a an emphasis on trade relationships with South America. So, you know, I can't peer beneath the covers there, but I think it's very

It's fascinating. Was um the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein involved in the World Commerce >> Not from what I've seen so far. >> World Com- Was it World Commerce? >> This is why it's it's such a boring name. World Commerce Corporation. >> World Commerce Corporation. way, >> also created a World Banking Corporation, a World Finance a a banking world corporation. I mean, like yeah, this is when you dig into this stuff, it's almost impossible to dig through all these shell companies. >> Generic shell companies that, you know, are meant to not be They're meant to be

forgotten, like I just did in this >> I'm falling prey to it. Yeah, I mean, you also have a lot of interesting connections between some of these old families that you're mentioning as part of the WCC, let's just call it that. and UFOs. So, like Rockefeller, for example, you know, Detlev Bronk was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation. He was rumored to be the Yeah, president. He was rumored to be on the Majestic 12, rumored to do all the early alien president of the medical school at Johns

also went on these sort of trips to the Bahamas on this yacht owned by this guy Eldridge Reeves Johnson, who is head of RCA, you know, Victor Talking Machines Company, and they were interested in really exotic technology. If you read William Stephenson's biography, A Man Called Intrepid, he by another guy named William Stephenson, which is funny, spelled a little differently. William Stephenson >> That confused me, by the way. I was thinking of William Stephenson. I thought he'd written some of the books. >> Yeah, it's not not a biography, but it's Stephenson with a V wrote it for the PH

all the top theoretical physicists at the time but also a lot of interesting uh, you know, people like Townsend Brown literally working on anti-gravity, doing anti-gravity experiments and he wrote a book called The Stars Are Too High and it's a book about uh, rogue Nazi scientists who break off and collaborate with American scientists and create essentially man-made UFOs and then stage an alien invasion and he dies

a couple years later in a bizarre plane crash which to this day his family thinks, you know, he was killed essentially cuz the power lines were put up right where, you know, he was land right on the landing strip or whatever. yeah, and then you have Kissinger probably tied in with UFO stuff as well. William Steinman, you know, goes to um, the house of Eric Henry Wang who has ran special projects at Wright-Patterson and he meets with Wang's

widow, Maria Wang and she's like, yes, my husband did work on UFOs and his boss was Henry Kissinger and there are a couple other I did a whole video essay on Henry Kissinger but there are a couple of other things that make me believe Kissinger might have been tied in with the whole UFO thing and Kissinger was probably more beholden to Nelson Rockefeller than he was to Nixon throughout his tenure as Secretary of State under Nixon. Um, so loose threads but like >> Oh, but they they keep overlapping. They

keep overlapping. >> And on on on the the American scientist and Nazi scientist thing, one of the fascinating things with the World Commerce Corporation is they have a a vice president called Ricardo Sicre. I don't know how you pronounce his second name, but Sicre seems to be that s i c r e. And he was essentially, I think, a Spanish guy, Spanish spy during World who was basically employed by the OSS. you know, he he's he seems interesting. He he seems kind of a bit dodgy, connected to organized crime, all of

this stuff. But he had I think he had a a colleague or a friend in Spain called Robert Rock. And that turns out they lived in the same apartment complex. So, Robert Rock is sort of travel journals and occasionally mentions his adventures with Ricardo Sicre. And he talks about how they are part of a secret society which strides the world, is the phrase he uses. >> himself, Ricardo Sicre, also the oil

magnate. I think it's Jake Hamon. What's fascinating here? Who lives in the same building as Rock and Sicre? Otto Skorzeny. >> Yeah. So, they're living there. >> Tell Tell people who Otto Skorzeny is. >> Well, he's a he's he's a famous Nazi commando who I think had saved the life of Mussolini, a big scar across his face. And had relationships with some of the highest echelons of Nazi power. I think there's a a relationship his one of his wives was very well connected with

Hjalmar Schacht, who is the head of the Reichsbank and Bank of International Settlements, I think. So, he had connections to this fraternity transnational brotherhood thing. >> And and ironically, I think went to South America. Was this notoriously kind of ruthless guy and and I think then partnered up with Mossad after So, he like worked with the Israelis after being a Nazi. >> Yeah, right. He like trained them on some stuff. It's really confusing, that whole thing. Yeah, what's going on with the the Mossad getting involved in it? But, there's another thing about this, too. I mean, firstly, LeVander talks

about how Otto Skorzeny is the public face of this huge Nazi underground. He's the guy with the relationships to whatever escaped afterwards. there's also a fascinating entry from a lady called Eileen Griffith, who briefly worked for the World Commerce Corporation. She'd later go on to become a countess. I don't know why she she had that prefix eventually. So, Griffith writes in in her biography, in her journals, that when she first worked for the World Commerce Corporation, she was working for Frank Ryan, the president, and they seemed to be doing, you know,

it seemed to be like a CIA front, but it was agreed it wasn't really a CIA front. It was its own thing. She described it as a precursor to the Iran-Contra situation, right? So, basically, drug smuggling, arm smuggling across borders, using all of those shell And then she says, "It was very different 8 or 9 years after that, because Otto Skorzeny came in and took over the operation. And when he did, we suddenly got access to resources and things I wasn't even aware of. And at some point, she says, 'I didn't even want to know what what was going on.'"

So, according to her, and by the way, she was connected to I think Nancy Reagan and a whole bunch of elite people in the US. She was basically saying the World Commerce Corporation, not only was it the precursor to Iran-Contra, but eventually Otto Skorzeny took on a serious leadership role. He wasn't just an obscure connection after a few years. And I think that raises questions about what those operations may have been that they are engaging in, and what shadowy underworld they may have been connected to, as well. >> There are other mafia figures connected. You've got people aristocracy on the

board, as well. I mean, it's it's impossible to list all the names here without going off. >> Yeah. But, eventually, it links to the with Thomas Townsend Brown in that whole geographical location. >> How does it link with the Bahamas? >> Yeah, well, um if you read the novel Secret Machines again, the May not Consortium is likely described found in the '40s, has all of these shell companies, but eventually in 1964 something happens, right? So, very clear, there's this mysterious entity called Sweep, okay? A lot of people have been trying to figure out what Sweep is.

We figured out May not Consortium, I think, but people think Sweep, w s w e e p, capital letters. People assume it must be the Swift organization, right? Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Transactions. The thing is, DeLong's very clear, Sweep is obscure, okay? You're not going to be able to figure out what it is. It's hardly mentioned anywhere. But it involves all this money from this huge underground being funneled, hundreds of billions being funneled about the time of 1964. >> Now, I I haven't figured out what Sweep is, but some very interesting things

happen in 1964. Um firstly, you've got something called Money Rex. You heard of this? >> It sounds like some sort of a child's conception of a of a of a game or something, but it's a real thing involving a guy called, I think it's Michele Sindona. Again, first name, I haven't had anyone pronounce it, so I could have got that wrong. This guy had worked with James Jesus Angleton, big mob figure, and he was basically responsible for helping the Mafia move their money without that being noticed in covert And eventually he became extremely good

at this. By 1964, the Mafia was basically saying, "Look, we need you to launder all of our money. We have too much of it." And so he creates something called Money Rex. I only stumbled across this a few days ago, so the the the the pieces are sketchy here. But Money Rex basically becomes connected, it's this single entity that's connected to 850 banks, and it's used to do the world's biggest money laundering operation ever, $200 according to the author Paul Williams. And uh what's fascinating is Sindona, as

part of this, would acquire his own banks. Many of those banks, when he would acquire them, two or three people would then acquire all the rest of the shares. One was the Vatican Bank, the other one was Charles Hambro, so the financier who ran the Special Operations Executive, Bank of England director, and a founding member of the World Commerce Corporation. So, and also bear in mind, Valais, I think, is claim you know, in one of his novels, he says a lot of this might be traced back to a private European bank from the 1800s. >> Charles Hambro's bank would fit that

very well. Anyway, so you've got this huge money wrecks thing, which is suddenly able to launder hundreds of billions of dollars. In 1964, it's exactly what De Long describes in the book. The question is, where does that go? And this is where it's it's tricky to figure it out, but a lot of World Commerce Corporation associated individuals would suddenly be moving towards the Bahamas. Something happened down there where a group of people had done what was called the Hawksbill Creek Agreement. And they purchased 50,000

acres of land from the Bahamanian government, effectively creating an autonomous state where they had no laws, no one was overseeing them. They could create as many shell companies that they wanted at scale now, which is one of the things that they did. And as part of that, they created this thing called Devco. D E V C O, capital letters. For a for a little while, I was thinking, is this Sweep, you know, five letters, capital >> I don't think it is, but Devco becomes controlled by the World Commerce Corporation, who then suddenly take this interest in the

Bahamas and these shell companies start to appear. I think the combination of this mass money laundering and all of these shell could equate to something. This is a could, okay? This is I you're you're with me here in the middle of my But what happens is the Bahamas becomes a location associated with all sorts of weird stuff. Like you said, Thomas Townson Brown is meeting William Stevenson, one of the founding members of the World Commerce Corporation, in the Bahamas. You have all of this stuff happening on Nassau, the the island there. And you also have Howard Hughes

who suddenly gets brought down there. >> dug into the story very deeply, but Howard Hughes I There's different stories associated with it. It seems in one story it's a voluntary thing, in another one he seems to be kind of taken down there to be held for some reason. >> Yeah, and I don't have a huge like background on Howard Hughes, but he's suddenly in the Bahamas as are endless people. Another fascinating link is Alfred Krupp. So, one of the titans of German industry. I think he was at the the Maison Rouge meeting.

And in 1955 he goes down there with the richest man one of the richest men in the world, Axel Wenner-Gren, Swedish multi-billionaire. And they go down to Nassau to discuss power plays is what's described, right? Big business power So, there's there's some gravitational force pulling people in. But the final thing I find is Resorts International. You familiar with them? >> Sounds so boring. Why would I care about Resorts International? There's this island in that location in the Bahamas.

It's called Hog Island. And a guy it was Axel Wenner-Gren actually purchased it, re- rebranded it Paradise Island. He's a good marketer, he knows what he's doing. People are going to go to Paradise And they basically end up building this fancy hotel there and everything. You're this is really uninteresting. What happens is a weird paint company. I wish Lavenda was here cuz he could tell us what's really going on. There's this paint company called the Mary Carter Paint Company. It's like a CIA front, which is then converted into this organization called Resorts

International, which is kind of running Paradise Island and some casinos and gambling, which presumably is being used for money laundering. That casino that that Resorts International organization decides to create a subsidiary designed to do intel checks on staff, which then gets rebranded into what's called International Intelligence Incorporated, Intertel. This is a private intelligence agency which suddenly is employing some of the most executives, not executives, but CIA, MI6

people are suddenly working for this non-state intelligence network which is a subsidiary of what is effectively a casino industry. Intertel, I think is interesting and I want to invest time there for a very specific reason. Jim Semivan is interested in the secret machines book and I think we might have pulled some of the threads about why. He also talks about this idea of a non-state hostile intelligence network. I don't know if you've heard that phrase I find it fascinating. It's It's in reference to Havana Syndrome actually.

And he's very subtle about it and he walks right up to the line and he says, you know, you might want to consider what Mike Pompeo had said about this non-state hostile intelligence network. And I was like, wow. That's sort of a transnational non-state intel and you know, the World Commerce Corporation kind of fits that. That's what Peter Dale Scott described it as. But Resorts International suddenly has a subsidiary which has a private intelligence network which is doing very dubious stuff. It's connected to organized crime, Meyer Lansky, all of this stuff. What's fascinating is >> that's like the 70s. You know who

becomes the controller of Resorts International in the 70s? >> Donald Trump. >> No way. >> I know, it's so interesting. For a brief period he was the guy who was basically in charge of it for a for a year or so. Whilst this private intelligence network is presumably still being run. There are many reasons I find that interesting. I mean, one of them is the context in which Jim Semivan references the non-state intelligence network. So obviously Havana Syndrome. But he's also referencing it in terms of WikiLeaks. Yeah. He's saying, you know, that the WikiLeaks thing may have been

coming from there. So you go back to the 2016 election. You got Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton's doing very well and is promising to release information about UFOs and try and pull the lid off of things. >> According to Semivan, a non-state intelligence network is responsible for the leaking of these emails, which were pretty decisive in forcing uh Trump in and Clinton out. >> But isn't that cuz Pompeo hated Julian Assange? And isn't he just talking about >> It's totally possible that he could be describing that. But what I find interesting is Semivan's focus on it in

the context of Havana Syndrome. >> You know, so he's saying you might want to think about what he's saying there. So I've been looking cautiously and trying to figure out where can I private transnational intelligence Because I think this is one of the big mistakes we make in terms of analyzing geopolitics as well as when you're constrained to your analysis through the lens of nation-states. >> You know, you're you don't have the granularity to understand what's going on. You think, well, it's US versus Iran, it's Russia versus Ukraine, and we

all continue to be mystified about what's really going on with these wars. These sort of transnational entities, whether it's this Nazi underground, the um or a private intelligence network which may have allegiances which aren't aligned with the United States but leverages intelligence from the United could these be important components to try and understand what's going on? >> Absolutely. Well, there's um I don't know if you've ever read Carroll Quigley, The Anglo-American Establishment, but it talks about how uh US intelligence agencies were birthed

out of this kind of round table culture between secret societies in the US and the UK, or really Britain at the time. And it was Cecil Rhodes and uh Lord Alfred Milner, and you know, counterparts in the US, and they had these kind of loose informal organizations. And the idea that after 1947 when the CIA gets created and those things get formally disman- disbanded, those all go away is ridiculous. You know, that those informal >> networks have to persist in some shape

or form. And And then you look at the Epstein stuff and it kind of points at that, too. And it points at a lot of science suppression being a theme. He said he tells Bannon that he's, you decides to set up Zorro Ranch because Los Alamos physicists are retiring, you know, in New Mexico. And so he wants to be, you know, have proximity to them. He says he Pons in an email, which is cold fusion. Probably talking about Pons and Fleischmann. And then you go back to the idea that Maxwell, you know, probably Robert Maxwell cuz he obviously, you

know, Epstein is with Ghislaine Maxwell. Robert Maxwell is Ghislaine's father. You know, people always note his Israeli intelligence ties, which are definitely a thing. But he also, I believe, was tied in with the MI6. And So you you have this MI6 guy in in Robert Maxwell, who I I also don't think anybody knows interrogated Nazi scientists post-World War II. And then he's setting up scientific peer review. And then his, you know, call it his son-in-law. I don't think Ghislaine and,

you know, Jeffrey were married necessarily. But like his, you know, his protege, who's saying he's going around, he's suppressing science in the form of Pons Fleischmann, you know. And so And that feels like this bizarre international network shadow network thing, you know. >> Absolutely. I mean, if you keep looking at the connection of all these companies, Robert Maxwell very quickly comes into frame. So you're with Results International, you've got Permindex, and all these things. You And they're all connected to World Commerce Corporation. Very quickly, just one increase of the

lens you're looking at, Maxwell appears adjacent to all of this. And it makes complete sense, right? Aline Griffith is saying this nexus was the precursor to Iran-Contra, arms trafficking, drug trafficking, trafficking in general. And this this lack of allegiance to any individual nation or state, and this this this willingness to sort of trounce on various alliances to to fulfill your objectives. And Maxwell's also interesting because of the promise software scandal. Are you familiar with >> Oh, very. Yeah. >> Right. So, he sold that to Sandline

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So, whoever had the backdoor to that suddenly had all of their information as well, right? >> Yeah, so Robert Maxwell is selling software that is systematically siphoning off American nuclear secrets to some organization >> that is very weird and worthy of investigation, you would think. >> And I think that's where, you know, what's interesting to me is, you know, we traced it all the way back to the '30s and those original financial relationships. A lot of those people were anti-Semitic, right? >> But by the time you get to '70s and '80s, the Mossad has accrued such power,

especially through software. >> I spent years in cybersecurity. One time I was kind of asked to write a paper on the Israeli cybersecurity industry, and I was blown away by how they punch above their weight. >> Oh, yeah, yeah. >> And it's well known now, I think, you know, in the in the public that cyberwarfare capabilities they're off the charts. So, the promise software scandal, it's not just like an early example of cyberwarfare. It was the one where no one was ready for it. >> They deployed that software everywhere and got access to information, and information's power. So, I just wonder about the shift of this network, and I

think ultimately at that level, when you're ultimately a transnational criminal network, you don't necessarily have the same allegiances that we might have at at our level of the culture. there certainly seems to have been a shift towards Israeli uh power in that that underbelly, I think. >> Mhm. Well, they yeah, they have an elite hacking unit called 8200, and they you know, all those guys are like, you know, elite cyber hackers and stuff. And I did Pegasus also come out of >> I think so. >> Israel, which you know, is obviously you

if you if that's on your phone, they you know, they do track all your keystrokes, you know, pretty much everything. >> They've already got it all. Yeah, there's no point worrying think it anymore. I mean, they're they're on >> yeah, they're they're very competent in in those areas. Um >> Well, I don't know I don't know where that leads us. >> But it's it's open-ended. I mean, right now I'm trying to figure out all those connections from when you get to the Bahamas and the But where does it ultimately intersect with UFOs? And to me, this is this is where it gets very interesting because

you know, what what was it you said about this international corporation board that that um >> Oh, that Ben Rich was saying Well, he was saying at the end of his life he was talking about UFOs and he was lamenting the fact that you the UFO issue was governed by this international corporate board and was hoping that it would be taken under the kind of the umbrella of, you know, >> American intel and aerospace world more. >> Which is fascinating. Cuz you hear a guy who's at the tip of the spear when it comes to building recon planes for the

CIA and, you know, very advanced American defense tech and he's saying that there's something international above him that governs the UFO issues. >> Exactly. You think that's the guy who's got the secrets and he's frustrated cuz he doesn't have them. >> That's right. >> And that whatever that entity is, if it still exists right now, I think you you you you see this sort of conflation of the Epstein issue and the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue.

>> And they I think they intersect in that. Whatever it is today is probably quite dangerous. So, I'm glad we only went up to the '80s. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Um shifting gears before both of us get >> Um you know, you you did a really amazing video essay on some of the deeper threat Maybe this is just as dangerous, by the way. But some of the deeper threads of UFOlogy where you basically see this kind of

of manufactured division going on where you get this these infighting dynamics of UFO researchers sort of hating each other. You often get these sort of constructs as well of like symposiums studying UFOs in the context of like you you describe it as like of the lineage of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences which is fascinating. So yeah, I want to hear more about that. >> Yeah, it's super important. Again, you

know, we talked earlier about how this movement is growing, okay, and there's more and more people talking about this. And a lot of the people involved are doing, you know, really phenomenal research. Like look at UAP Gerbs. The guy is probably You know the other day I I I tried to copy and paste all of his transcripts into a single document so I could control F them and Microsoft Word broke. It couldn't handle it. It was There was like a thousand pages. It was unbelievable. >> Yeah, he's amazing. >> He's unbelievable, yeah. And you know, you look at someone like him, what are your options as you know, if you're part of the secrecy faction and you've been

tasked with trying to keep this information in, what are your options? You can go and you can say we need to improve our data leak prevention system so this information doesn't come out. And yeah, that's one problem with your The other one is how do you deal with someone like Gerbs? And there's many different ways you can do it. And number one is you can start to psychologically manipulate someone based on their profile. And I think no matter who you are, if you believe that you're immune to that, you're exactly the target they're going to be looking for. And these people have been

practicing the art of psychological manipulation for hundreds of years. And we should assume if there's a real there there and people like you and me and other people who are trying to just keep moving a little bit deeper is there value in trying to interrupt those individuals? And there's a very simple way to It sounds like, you know, again, is someone going to get whacked? No, that's that's the obvious thing to do. Right. The really >> smart thing to do is sources, okay? So, what I do is I'm like, "Well, Jesse's interested in this." And what I do is I give you a couple of really good bits of information to start with, right? And

suddenly you're breaking this story about this thing that's maybe somewhat important, but it's not too important. And you build a relationship of trust with me. And now you're thinking, "Well, yeah, I'm going to make my next video, but I'm kind of interested in what Jason's going to share next." And, you know, then I start to introduce more and more unusual, unnecessary, extra information which is not true, >> which gets distilled into the community, which then surrounds all the true information, but I've also dealt with you. Cuz I've turned you from someone who was active and passionate, and you've become passive. You're waiting

for the sources to tell you what's going >> And now it's all these people behind the shadows who've got the information, and rather than you trying to be analytical and piece it together and be like, "I think this could be true and this isn't, and thank you, Mr. Source, but I don't believe you this time." You sort of get turned around. And I think it's a very simple, but it's practically free. And if you alongside that, if you just flood disinformation into the community, you'll do a wonderful job of making things very difficult, and you know, you look at the 20 and back story, right? >> Um I think there's a real conversation

to be had about a secret space program. >> For sure. >> Of course there is. Like, if I'm going to build space technology, and we, you know, we had the Artemis mission. Are you telling me the United States televised their best space technology ahead of World War III? You kidding me? >> This is nonsense. >> That's crazy. >> And the the reality is >> have people been to Mars? You're like, "Oh, that's crazy." It's like, don't write it off. >> like, 20, 30 years into the future of our technology will exist somewhere >> But I'm going to write it off now because of Corey Goode and Gaia, because

that's the 20 and bucks 20 and back stuff is so ridiculous. It's so insane. >> Exactly. And that all that stuff has a unique effect in the United Kingdom where anything that's on the Discovery Channel is immediately unacceptable, you know? So, like there's this kind of weird dynamic there. But, the other thing which I see every day, unfortunately, and it's it's really sad, it's like just researchers turning against each other and >> I know. >> getting so aggressive. And it's it's you know, I guess sometimes maybe it's warranted, maybe there needs to be conversations to be had, but like

it's the easiest way to destroy a a >> It's so crazy. It's so You've never seen a topic where it's just like we're covering It should be us against the world, you know? It's like we're covering like these stigmatized flying objects that point to some greater, hopefully, on some level aspirational metaphysical truth, even if there are obviously dark elements to it. And you just have all this like petty politics of like you covered this and this and this was just

>> Just whatever. Well, it's all good. You know? >> Yeah, yeah, it causes a lot of issues as well, because now we all look like a bunch of nutjobs who can't >> You all look crazy, which is then your your falling prey to the manufactured division. You even I think in this video that you did was just amazing, you cited the CIA playbook, which was this counter-intel handbook around manufacturing infighting. >> And you look at UFO Twitter and it's like it might as well be like the real world, like MTV's like, you know, it's like a reality show. >> And it's like

you're talking about them again, what should be like the most sacred stuff, and it ends up in this just, you know, Lord of the Flies. >> I think what's happened over the last 10 UFOs have kind of gone mainstream. It's interesting now, every time I speak to someone about it like I'm going full-time with the channel soon, and that's amazing. I'm so excited. >> You should be. >> And so, inevitably, you know, conversation comes up and people are like, "So, what are you going to do?" And I'm like, "Well, I've got a channel about UFOs." You know, people they don't respond by saying like, "What are you on about?" Normally, what they struggle with is like "Why would the government

keep it secret and how do they keep it secret? Genuinely, like serious questions you've got to figure out. Most people are now like interested, but there's this next stage now where how do you help those people like grapple with all of this stuff? And the same people who did the first you know, kind of movement of this aren't going to be the same people who do the next one. >> And similarly, after that, different people because you need different types of evangelists for different types of audiences at different times. So, there is an inevitable life cycle as well. And also specialties, right? Like in the UK,

we really don't have that many people who talk about this topic. >> Um and actually people in the UK, like I said, you put something on the Discovery Channel, we're going to be like that can't be true, you know? Like it's it's a default. There's this kind of snobbish attitude. So, you need specialties, you need different types of communities, you need different people at different stages. And we need to be able to learn from each other and not feel paranoid that I haven't cited the exact place I got this thing from, you know? Do your best, but we need to be cohesive as a unit, otherwise the psyop personnel from

that manual you mentioned. So, I agree. Uh apparently King Charles is super into UFOs. Did have you heard anything about that or >> yeah, from my boy Charlie up the road, I don't know. I mean, there's a connection there with uh Louis Mountbatten who was his uh uncle, I think. >> I think there's a story that something landed on one of his properties. >> And his gardener saw it. And he he vouched for his gardener and put a report in.

Um the royal family is is interesting uh because of the connections I was talking about earlier about this these elites who ran the intelligence agencies, right? Many of them are sirs, they're knighted, they're they're the UK is a a very different beast to the United States. We still have deeply systemic issues when it comes to hierarchies. We have House of Lords and a monarchy, you know? It's really weird. So, I the reason I'm mentioning that is where you might perceive the royal family to be this kind of little

spectacle, actually they're deeply integrated into politics. Um most legislation that goes through our parliament, they can veto it and review it and ensure it doesn't apply to them. And uh there have been claims that different people have been briefed about certain topics. I I can't remember the details of those. I think if you're the king, I would be unbelievably bored. So, I'd be interested in peering into >> You know, I'd be like, you know, well, I've already got all the power. Everyone's sycophantic around me about who I am. Like, what am I going to do to

stimulate my curiosity? So, I hope he's into it. Um but I, you know, if he was to say anything about it, I wouldn't trust him. >> That's an interesting It's like the boredom theory of blue-blooded elite UFO interest is a an interesting >> Like it's a Liechtenstein Liechtenstein. >> That's right. I was just thinking, yeah, Hans out It's funny, my my girlfriend is she was reading this book by Shirley MacLaine, this famous actor out here in LA. She's um you know, this very spiritual

you know, figure kind of new agey, but really thoughtful as well. And she was writing She wrote a book called Going Within. And she was writing about being in like some government office in DC and she's with Claiborne Pell who is super into, you know, UFOs, paranormal stuff and actually happens to be Biden's He was a senator and he was Biden's advisor. And it's Claiborne Pell the >> Pell, yeah, it rings a bell. >> Senator Pell and the Bud Hopkins

is there as well and I think has an experiencer there who she claims that like she was, you know, there she's part of some alien hybrid program or whatever and her fetus went missing 3 months in, which is a common thing if you talk to people who are you know interested in the abduction thread. Um and and then the royal prince of Liechtenstein is there as well. And she's just writing about this casually. And you know and and then apparently she convened the royal prince of Liechtenstein Hans Adam convened all of the Roswell witnesses as

well. And he was friends with Whitley Strieber and like he was just really interested in UFOs. I think he's still alive. I think he's in his early 80s or >> Was he the guy who was financed supporting the Lone Stars group? You know the sort of post All That group of scientists. They had some sort of sponsor who seemed to be associated with that area. >> What is the Lone Star? Who was uh >> Oh um so so after the All That program was you know they were constantly going to get funding they didn't get funding going to get funding. So they all they they really wanted to continue discussing things. And so they formed

this informal group just called the the Lone Stars. There's Jacques Vallée, Eric Davis, Hal Puthoff, all the same people. >> Ed May who might have been part of that group. He was a famous remote viewer involved in the Stargate program. He talks about uh working with the royal prince of Liechtenstein Hans Adam. So I yeah I don't know if that's connected with Lone Star but I think he seems very interested in exotic tech A and B you know alien UFO phenomena. And I think I think he believes that Jesus is going to it's

eschatological at its core. Like he believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer or something. >> That would be a great end to it all. >> Yeah I'm back. >> Yeah okay okay. Well I I don't know where he would have got that from but I guess it's the synthesis of of two very different things put together right? >> I think there are people who think that you know that Jesus going up on the cloud in the book of Acts is a you know is a flying saucer or something and >> It's interesting. I mean what's

fascinating is he's like the most influential person of all time. But we just don't know much about him. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, well, you know, you have all these riddles and parables that he spoke in and stuff. And you >> But, did he But, did he speak in those? >> Oh, you know, that's unclear. It's It's hard to say. >> the distance in time and everything. So, >> For sure. >> You know, he was always >> I think he was a real historical figure. >> And then, yeah, I don't know. >> Exactly. From that, I [laughter] think, you know, he had he had an impact and he was interesting, but, you know, what we can filter through that is

is limited. >> is what I would say to the Prince of Fiction sign if he was here, but >> But, he's probably My My guess would also be if we were in the room with Jesus, he would be notable in any room he's at. He would be He would probably have like a pretty interesting energy and have a disproportionate impact, you know? He wouldn't just be like a dude in the corner, you >> Yeah, I mean, the charisma that you need to to to have that impact is huge. Or at least the capabilities that you would need, right? Sometimes people aren't that charismatic, but they have an

ability to do things which really puts them at the center of the room. >> Yeah. So, where do you think all this stuff goes? This this modern crazy UFO disclosure push. Obviously, there are cynical motives and intents behind it and weird elements and factions all fighting and vying for it. And then, there's also something very hopeful and aspirational, to me at least, that comes from it, which is this bulldozer into the past paradigm of kind of materialist reductionism, which to me leads to kind

nihilism. And so, uh what what do you What do you think happens? There're There're positive possibilities and negative possibilities. >> Yeah, I see I don't know that these are the things that are going to happen, but I've recently been just really focused on this this tension of two interpretations of what's going on right now. And it comes back to that Collins Elite video, actually, where you've got, you know, there are these Christian people who believe the end time started in the 1900s. But, then there are simultaneously these New Age people who believe that we're going through a And, you know, one person's apocalypse

have experienced and and dogma. Um but, I hope I hope that we're going through that slow evolution. And that we may be on the verge of something immensely positive. Um you know, the cheesy phrase is always darkest before the dawn. >> It's getting real dark moment. >> And uh you know, my my two hopes are one that there'll be a dawn and that this is going somewhere and we'll discover what that is in some beautiful way.

pillars I stand on to try and navigate whatever's coming cuz it's short term, it seems kind of negative. >> Yeah, fair enough. Do Do you have Do you have a sort of a base case understanding of of what is going on? Obviously, we talked about, you know, the flying objects themselves, but there's obviously this sort of >> abduction phenomena as well and kind of what seems like this bizarre intergenerational breeding hybridization >> What's that about? >> Yeah, yeah. I think that that's uh

people have hinted at is information about like hybridization. >> It sounds wild. So, I have like a a a notion, which is like my notebook where I keep all my stuff and I was just dropping whenever I'd hear information about hybrids, I'd be like, "I don't want to forget about this, but I'm really not interested in this wacky >> Just drop it in that folder. And um you know, eventually I went back in there and I was like, "Oh, whoa. Hold on a second. There's like a lot here." One of the interesting things was how many different people seem to have been kind of warned off of talking about the hybrid issue. So, DeLonge when he came

he was like, "There's a big genetic component to this." And he said, "I you know, I asked my advisors these questions, these questions, but the moment I asked them about hybrids they were like went quiet and I wasn't supposed to talk about that." >> Yeah, the same thing with Vallee's journals, he recounts a conversation with Diana Pasulka where Pasulka is basically explaining that >> I don't know. Tim Taylor, who is it? Is saying like, "You shouldn't be talking about the hybrid thing." >> And then you've got John Ramirez who in

uh made comments to the effect that everyone is waiting for Lou Elizondo to talk about hybrids like it's coming. >> So, there's this kind of idea that we've got this like process that we have to go through in terms of which conversations happen when. And so you know, I start thinking about the hybrid thing and very quickly you begin to realize why it would be at the very least a late stage topic. And then you might even realize maybe it's too dangerous to even talk about it. So the the hybridization thing raises questions because if we can breed with non-human

entities, does that mean that we're >> So suddenly you've got really confusing piece of information which immediately leads to another really big question about who we are. Next you've got questions about our religious texts and what they really mean. So now you're destabilizing religion as well. The really big concern here is we have been through and right now are also going through moments where we question the human dignity of the people next to us. So in World War II everything that happened in terms of the

Holocaust was basically about trying to exterminate a specific lineage, right? A specific group of people and their DNA from the planet. We see similar things happening right now, you know, arguably in Gaza and Israel. You've you've got questions there about, you know, genocide and about the racial components there. What I find very interesting is in the Secret Machines books, the non-fiction, you've got one of the advisers just outright telling Lavenda and DeLonge, you know, genocides may be a function of

a conversation that he had. A lot of people have issues with Ryan Bledsoe. That's fine. It's okay. But he recounts a conversation he had with Jim Semivan. I think it's very instructive. Semivan purportedly told him, "You know, we think you're hybrids. The reason you're having these experiences is because you may have more non-human DNA or certain strand of non-human DNA. You read Lou Elizondo's book Eminent, it's in there. He says it seems to be that people with Cherokee blood and DNA have more experiences and also are more inclined to go towards a certain

type of work, right? So they end up in this kind of government UFO mystery-solving thing based on their genetic lineage. So all sorts of different information is coming from places indicating that and it's, you know, we can't take this as fact because it may well be the case that this is real, that there are studies showing that as you change the genetic profile of an individual, certain things happen. Maybe you gain certain capabilities, which would be very interesting. But there's another side to this, which whether it's true or whether it's a

mythology. I tend to I doubt it's just a mythology, but either way, can we handle that information right now? Given where we are, given the geopolitical conflicts, given our inability to see each other as human And it's so painful. I mean, like I'm I'm not in pain. I'm I'm here with you in California. It's great, you know. But it's just looking at what's happening around us right now. You think if we were to reveal that some people on the planet have more non-human DNA, whilst other people have less, that

creates a spectrum by which you can judge whether a person is more or less You telling me you want to release that information into the general population right now? >> No, doesn't seem like a good idea. >> There's so much data indicating that, you know, and it's it's anecdotal data, sure. But from this group of people who have been releasing information, that's one of the things that's kind of being hinted at. >> It's anecdotal, but it's also from guys who were very high up at the CIA, especially when it comes to people like Jim Semivan. You imagine And it's funny, as you were talking

I'm all I'm almost thinking like, okay, so you're an average person, you hear somebody high up at the CIA say, you know, something about alien human hybrids, and you are totally disenchanted with the government, you're skeptical of everything, you know, we just went through all this Epstein stuff or whatever, and you're you're thinking they're just, you know, they're going to they're going to lie to me. And so, um, uh, you're you're going to be so totally skeptical and think that that's just like a distraction. If you're the intel person who's super

savvy, you're going to know that you saying that will hit like, you know, some part of the population who kind of wants to, you know, is interested in this and wants to read between the lines and like learn more. And, um, uh, but a lot of people are just going to dismiss you out of hand. And so, you might even, knowing that, release this You might be like the person who comes out, becomes the spokesperson for this stuff, and then it kind of sits there, marinates, trickles through society, and kind of, you know, it becomes more acceptable to talk about 5,

10 years later. And it like it seeps in that one academic gets interested, and that's how this thing sort of gets legitimized and and and and happens. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's only a psyop. That that means like they know that them saying it sort of like makes you immune because you don't believe them anyways, you >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so dissemination of information in a non-direct kind of way. >> Yeah, I think so. Uh, you know, the, uh, >> And they don't they a lot of these guys, you know, some of them, I'm sure, have

counterintel backgrounds. Um, and I'm sure some of them have done some very unsavory things in their past. they're also pretty savvy, and they don't they don't want to be looked at as total sycophants in the future. Like they'd I think they'd rather not 10, 20, 30 years down the line, especially if they held high positions, they don't want to be looked at as like you just bold-faced lied to the American public. You know, as some high-up Intel person. So, I don't know. It's very It's

>> I find it's also like that whole strand of thinking is interesting in terms of geopolitics. It's a long again, like early interviews before anyone knew who his advisers were, he was talking about how some of the things that we did in Iraq may have been related to certain groups of people there who were connected with certain non-human entities and were helping them proliferate. And that that may have been one of the motivations, which sounds like a What? >> I know. It's like it sounds like a mythology, but that's one of the things that he was sharing before he was suddenly like exposed as literally having these people speak to him.

>> But you know, one of the things I I you know, so many of our wars don't make any sense. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What are we really doing? What's the real purpose of them? >> Yeah, well, they make a little more sense through the kind of lens of, you know, acquiring oil and resources and and and geopolitics. So, like why would you go into Iran for, you know, nuclear program that's never really seemed to manifest? They don't really They seem like a paper tiger, you know, as far as actually being able to have those capabilities. But then does it put a lot of, you know, pressure on China and make

the whole world more dependent on American natural gas? Yes, it does. And then you kind of view like American foreign policy through that hermeneutic over the last 70 years and it starts to make more sense. But maybe there's some even weirder kind of, you know, lens that you can put on >> Cuz if if you believe that this is going on and we've had, I mean, we didn't even talk about this this again, another idea that's trickled out there is we have a relationship with some of these beings. And if that's a thing, like we talked about a Herman Oh, I forget his name. The German guy, the Nazi guy who claimed that they had a relationship. Herman

>> Oh, Herman Oberth, yeah. >> Oberth, yeah, yeah. Herman Oberth, and you know, who is it on our side who may have had a relationship? But you're telling me we have a relationship and that's not impacting our geopolitics? Yeah. I think it's probably the the key epistemic foundation that we would have to understand what's going on. So, um but again, that's that's that's mystery world. We can't see that very clearly. But if this is going somewhere, that's going to be a reality. >> Yeah. And you talk about, you know, historically you have kind of mystic truth seeker individuals, and then you

have kind of the canonical establishment, you know, religious institution that kind of determines what's acceptable as far as what you can believe and not. And so, this brings up a really interesting question that you've covered. Do you think the Vatican knows anything about >> Yeah, absolutely I do. And I think that the the role of the Vatican is hinted at by many people that I would respect, and kind of comes up and then it disappears, right? No one wants to focus too much on the Vatican. Um so, we'll keep this

>> But I I think um what is you know, what is it that makes an institution last for a long time? 2,000 years. There's There's some other institutions like I think Egyptian empires have have lasted longer. But the the key thing is you have to resist You have to resist revolution. And uh the Vatican did and has done an outstanding job on that. Um you know, there was many doctrinal things that came up and they they dealt with that. And they were suppressing all sorts of things that would come up for a long time, and eventually you have the

Reformation, which in turn leads to the Enlightenment, which in turn leads to, you know, like a new form of government over here in America. These are all revolutions, and the Vatican uh conspiring with the monarchies and the Knights of Malta, who lost Malta because of Napoleon uh during the Napoleonic Revolution. All of them were like, "We nearly got wiped off the map, you know, like late 1700s, nearly completely destroyed all of this old power." So, afterwards they colluded a thing

called the Congress of Vienna. I'm just saying 1812 or something. >> 1815. You were ready for this. >> Klemens von Metternich. >> The what? Who? Klemens von Metternich? Who's that? >> He oversaw the Congress of Vienna. >> I'm glad you're here, Jess. >> You're the guy on top. Underneath him attending were the various monarchies, and the Vatican, the Knights of Malta. And the idea was like, "Look, we don't like each other. Like, before Napoleon, these people weren't getting on, but we better get on. Because when a revolution happens in Southern Italy, that's Austro-Hungary's

problem. So, I'm going to send people down to help with that. Let's systematize our response to change." And that is just a reality, um, historically. So, the Vatican has always tried to deal with revolutions. What's the ultimate revolution? The reality that the biblical narrative, which constrains the information, especially not even just the biblical narrative, but the doctrine that's built on top of it, which constrains our interpretation of these frankly bizarre uh, could be blown open by the next

So, just as a a form of If the Vatican has a personality, it's conservative. >> Now, you can look at very specific instances where you can see this at work. Great one's Fatima. I went there recently and, uh, did a tour, and it was really funny cuz I went and scheduled this tour with me and my girlfriend at the time, and we went up to this lady and we spent about half an hour with her, and eventually she's like, "Are you guys Catholic?" And we're like, "No." She's like, "What are you doing here?" You know? Everyone else who goes on this tour is a Catholic. Um, but we went around and she

showed us exactly where all these events happened and everything. And basically, for those who don't know, it's a 1917 kind of period in Portugal, place called Fatima, and these young children start to see strange beings. This lady appears. And you know, no one else can really see this lady and the children keep saying she's appearing and everyone's thinking, whatever, you know. But, she appears so many times, the town starts to get a little bit stirred up by it, by their stories. And then eventually she says there's going to be a huge miracle is going to happen on this date,

this place. 70,000 people turn up and the newspapers document this and all the history we have shows this. They turn up in a field and um eventually everyone's thinking like, am I going to stay here? This nothing's happening. So they're getting ready to And the clouds part and there's this thing in the sky and the sources that we have from lawyers and doctors and you know, very serious people describe it as a silvery disc. Okay? It's hovering there and it's suddenly doing this and it's going there and it's doing that. It's whizzing around. At one point it comes down. It

seems like it's about to hit them and it goes back. And then suddenly the the the clouds come over and you know, the sun kind of reappears from behind them. Okay? So the Vatican basically says this was the sun flying around. Okay? People said they saw a disc. But for the Vatican, that's kind of dangerous. You're telling me there's a silver disc in the sky? I'm probably going to stop focusing on all my Hail Mary's and start reading some books, you know? So now there's this tendency to constrain the information. You also have this with Cupertino. Oh,

>> Specifically though on that, I think the Vatican confiscated one of the prophecies from the orphans or whatever that uh you know, made the prophecy around you know, the sun and the or or or or the Virgin Mary showing up which turned into this sort of, you know, sun in the sky. Um but it I think the prophecy was more complex than it sort of portrayed historically and it was written down and that piece of paper was literally confiscated >> by the Vatican. Fascinating. >> Yeah, the secrets of Fatima, right?

Which is a wonderful way to brand it. >> And then you have the magenta crash probably being held by the Vatican as well or or at least under the knowledge I think it was held at the Soratte bunker which was outside of Rome, but it was the information about it was back channeled through Pope Pius the 12th to FDR and yeah, you have other weird stuff too like I don't you cannot believe the Majestic 12 docs. I I think they were probably some counter intel ploy, but clearly part of the

stuff in there is real and there's one document around Francis Spellman being given access to the Roswell materials. Francis Spellman is deeply tied in with the Vatican and was was he a cardinal actually or >> He was a cardinal and the grand protector of the Knights of Malta. >> Yeah, there you go. And so he's supposed to get access to the Roswell materials immediately, but this is in the Majestic 12 documents and then there's documentation of Bishop McIntyre and another guy pretty high up and you know, the Vatican ecosystem and he's hanging

out around Edwards Air Force Base in 1954. There This is not even MJ-12. This is real records of this Bishop McIntyre hiring hanging around Edwards Air Force Base in 54 when you know, Eisenhower is rumored to you know, do his deal with the aliens around allowing medical experiments to be done among the the human population. So very >> It is and the general Catholic influence in America is huge, you know, I I and a video that's being released today on my channel we talk about this. Just

again, looking at the American Republic when it was founded, it was founded on a completely new philosophy of how government would work where church and state were separated and some of the founding fathers were very worried about Catholic influence in America because you know, generally the influence in Europe had been to suppress okay and not to allow democracy and the free flow of information. But they allowed Catholics of course, that's the doctrine of America, right? I may not agree with you, but you're welcome here. Over time, uh the Jesuits founded many universities here, at one point more than anybody else, including Fordham

University, Georgetown, and um that's a great way to influence a nation slowly. You're doing great work with education. Catholic education has always been very But, now you have access to all the people who are coming up and the youth, and you can take those who are devout Catholics and put them in very strategic positions and say, "Well, I know you were going to do seminary. I know you love the Bible, but I really think you should get into intelligence." That's one of the people who was the founding uh the founding director of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

>> No way, cuz they pop up all over UFO lore. They're always, you know, uh somebody in nuclear base sees something and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations shows up. Yeah, exactly. Says, you know, "Give me all the radar data. Shut up about this. Sign this >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Okay, so he so the founding director? >> Carol, I forget his first name, but uh the founding director of of Air Force Office of Special Investigations was a devout Catholic who wanted to go to seminary and suddenly found himself in intelligence. And of course it's AFOSI,

which is overseeing the very beginnings of the Collins Elite theory, which begins to appear. >> Which, you know, we've already discussed is ostensibly not necessarily the best theory to explain everything. It's kind of good. Um so, but Catholics in general appear throughout the American intelligence establishment and there was a census that um I saw some data on where 33% of Irish Catholics had served in the military at some point. 40 or 50% of the Medal of Honors that were awarded were awarded to to I think Irish Catholics or Catholics. These are These

are really big swings in the data. Um now, it's not to say that Irish Catholics are bad or anything. I'm I'm Irish, which surprises people, but you know, I'm not trying to say this race or this religion is bad. The point is the slow influence of this old world power, this top-down power from Europe over here in America has has happened. And all it takes is you know, if you have the Vatican who may have an interest in preventing that ultimate revolution, and they now manage to get people in positions of key power,

different generals, CIA directors. I mean, the number of CIA directors who are Knights of Malta or Catholic is preposterously high. >> Um you get those people into the key functions, you've now essentially got a seat at the board of directors of the UFO issue. Um and all of your history and your intelligence apparatus can be leveraged by them as long as you have a symbiotic relationship where you both understand each other. Cuz the Vatican is at its core a vast network. It's one of the biggest organizations, probably the biggest one on the planet, with so many different networks, whether you're

looking at the Jesuits, the Knights of Malta, Opus Dei. Um there's the Pro Deo intelligence network. I mean, at one point I tried to list them all and I thought this is going to take a long time to dig into all this stuff. >> It's huge. >> Um so yeah, I do think that the Vatican knows more. I do think that they've tried to reinterpret things, but you know, I wish another person I wish I could speak to is Pesulka. there's differences here. Some Catholics believe that we're going through what what seems to be kind of like an evolutionary, like it's very open, it's

extremely high positions of power. So it's like it's hard to say that the a conspiracy just exists on the side of the like speeding up the apocalypse or just exists on the side of the like you know keeping the institutions intact. who who who know or maybe that maybe those are the two seminal factions fighting or something I don't know but >> Yeah, I think uh the control I don't know how far it can really go um in terms of total control and now you know you look at Pope Leo pulling out Trump. It's interesting to me because prior to that I was looking

at Trump I was saying he attended Fordham University. He's consistently tried to get Catholics into the Secretary of Defense position. He's consistently pushed um Catholics involved in strange networks onto the judiciary. Uh you know it's it's it's But uh is that just a public spat for other purposes? Is it real? Is it genuine? Recently uh was it Pope Francis was the last Pope? >> I think he was trying to deal with the Knights of Malta as well. There was some conflict there about them. Maybe

operating a little bit rogue he had to pull them in. So you know as with all things you can't simply assume it's all one big thing. It's the same thing I I really struggle when people say uh you know the Freemasons the Jesuits they're all part of like one big operation and >> No it's clearly not and the the I think the the maybe the biggest fallacy of UFO research is we talk about Reagan like he spends all his time on UFOs. And it's like realizing it's sub 1% and he really is just geopolitics same with Trump. Trump really like if there's anything

going on there the Resorts International thing that's fascinating and I want to look into that but like my gut on that guy is he's not thinking deeply about UFOs you >> survival mode >> Yeah he's just thinking about you know how to make things work and you know think about geopolitics and so but this is fascinating. I appreciate your time Jason it's been a lot of fun. We could go on for hours but uh everybody should go check out your channel. How how do they find you on YouTube? >> You just type in Jason Samosa. The channel's big enough now that you won't

just find strange images of Jason Momoa as a samosa. >> There you go. >> We've passed that stage. >> You've broken through. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh we we reached a milestone, but you can find me there and uh I'm on X as well. >> You do have the Jason Momoa facial hair, I will say. >> That's been a goal I've been working on for a while. I'm thrilled to hear you say that. That's going to go live, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Don't cut that out. >> Oh, we won't. >> Awesome, man. Appreciate you. >> Cheers, man. Thanks, Justin.