“If You Knew What I Knew!” -Jeremy Corbell UNLEASHES On Jesse Michels

coming out near term? >> got it, and he's dead. testify 2 weeks about before he died, I think. And that's why people and the FBI are investigating if his death was >> Somebody you know >> worked on the reverse engineering >> of a laser weapon system from a downed Russian asset. >> NHIAS. Last name start with D. >> Uh we're not playing that game, I'm

afraid of you. >> I'm going to grab a beer for this part. I wanted to have a a drink with Jesse. He's got water cuz he's an alien. So, this is back and forth. >> Rapid fire. >> Are you independent or are you controlled? >> Bro, let's not get into it, right? You said you don't want to. >> So, let's not. >> We can if you want. Bro. This is going to be so awkward for your

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that's d o s e d a i l y {dot} c o {slash} Jessie for 35% off your first month subscription. I love this product. I want to thank Dose so much for sponsoring the show. Now, back to today's episode. >> Jeremy Corbell, Jesse Michaels, this is an honor and it's been a long time coming and I'm just so grateful for you coming on the show. This is really cool. need no intro, but I'm going to give you >> You broke the OG original whistleblower

to this [ __ ] day. >> That's right. >> Can I say those words? >> You can say those. You can say whatever you want. >> We broke the [ __ ] barrier. >> We did. >> And you and George are close collaborators, long-time colleagues. He's called your mentor and you guys both host the podcast Weaponized. Everybody should check that out. On Weaponized, you've broken some amazing stories. Matthew Brown, I want to get into. I want to get into Dylan Borland. I want to get into another person who breached the hull and walked into a UFO not in some sort of liminal state in a

Alabama. Mhm. Um were some people that are not public that we wanted an opportunity to meet with where it was like we could go somewhere and have a actual private in-person So, we went to the SCU thing so that we could do a journalism thing.

we were there. I was filming. And I'm pointing the camera at George. I thought it was just so cute. He's like, you know, gets to this thing. He's He's overwhelmed with the know, the stuff. And like he and I like to just have a beer. I'm going to crack this at a certain point. So, filming, I this guy's blocking my shot. He like comes in and he whispers to George Knapp, but I'm protected like a pitbull, right? So, immediately I capture, I watch him and turns out that was David Grusch.

And he's essentially, we knew about David, but but we we have to vet every single source no matter how good they sound. That's our job. You got to vet them, right? And that and that I'm on cosmic Journalists that rush stories out, they want to be first. So, I want to be first. I want to be right. I want to get it right. he leaned over and I got it all. Lip readers know what he said. He was kind of trying to do like he didn't know what it was filming. Now he does. Now he does. Well, I'll I'll I'll

give you an out. What did the lip readers say that he said? You know, essentially all he said was my name is David Grusch. I'm and all officer what you know, a little bit of history. Um I am going to come I'm going to file or I just did file actually my official ICIG, Inspector uh Intelligence Community Inspector General, which we should break down for your audience. A lot of people don't know what that means. >> Inspector General is like the police.

And that's very relevant up until this minute we're talking. Some stuff was in the news few days ago and I want to break that down for people. So, David in absolute legal capacity enough information for me and George to begin. So, we have our little side talks and we're like, "Well, I'm like, George, you know, you know what I got to do." He goes, "Yeah, you got to take him to a bar." I go, "But he doesn't drink." Cuz I asked him, right? All right, we'll get him anyway. So, I met up with him later that night and he watched me drink uh a

beers which is glorious and I always like sip them, you know, just to stay on the level. I think Gary Nolan was there with us and he did actually take a shot with me. If he says he didn't, he's lying. I think he'll admit to it. Gary Nolan came out to the thing. And um I got to know David a little bit. You know how you and I like get to know each other a little bit over time the first time, right? That's what happened that day. But then what happened after is what people don't know, which is how do you communicate about something sensitive just like signal? Smoke signals? How do you How do you do it? So, we got to a point where

we knew David Grusch was not only legit but everything he said is accurate, not just to the best of his knowledge but that it is accurate. And there's a difference there. that began the conversation. What is the end goal here? You're You're worried, right? Yeah, of course he's worried. He's a lone standing wolf telling the world something they'd never heard before, always have suspected, and our

government has covered it up for all these decades. I'm getting goosebumps because if I was in his position think about the pool of people that And then the pool pool of people that really know anything. It was his job to investigate black budget programs surrounding UAP. He did 40 like depositions, whatever you call them, and This guy has put everything on the line. Everything. He broke the law. It's not for personal gain. First question I asked him at the bar, you know, I said, "You got

to tell me what I'm going to find out. What's your dirt? What's the lowest point in your life? Because if you're telling the truth, that's what they're going to come PTSD, bro. >> I was in combat Afghanistan 2013. You know, I diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder. You know, I sought treatment. You know, I got help. Good to go, but there was an agency that tried to dig that back up and say, "Oh, Dave still has ongoing issues, unmitigated. We need to pull his

clearance." And then I had to show my medical records and be like, "No, dude. I sought treatment. Still do because that's what you do." And that They they they tried to use that against me. It was It was crazy. >> Almost every service person and non-service people I know can have that. So, they of course attacked that in a malicious way leaked by intelligence community to a fake journalist cuz fake journalists don't pay people, by the that's the story of the beer. It was the beginning of the potential of having

somebody raise their hand in front of the world, America, the Congress, the entire world and say, "Not only are UFOs but we are reverse engineering the We've been exploiting the derivative technologies for decades. We've made very little progress, but a little bit. And there were biologics, just means pilots, beings, And that was the assessment of That's what he followed up with. That's what David Grusch did. He popped the balloon.

high regard. Even colleagues who weren't working with him in an official capacity investigating UFO programs. They just worked with him in other capacities that are prosaically well regarded, you know, like handling the presidential daily brief or being in you know, the National Geospatial Agency. >> I want you to give his biography and all next level. Find somebody that that doesn't like him. Find out if they tell you, "I don't like him, but and then they tell you what he did." And

then you're like, "Aha." >> I I have met people who don't like him it feels like they have ulterior >> Right, right, but you still in the early in the early stages you you know, co-worker situation all this. You got people like people don't like him, that kind of thing. You when you're investigating something, you always try to find the people that want to hurt somebody or don't like them and see if they can't deny certain truths that you're looking to that validate. That's one tactic in journalism. >> The funny thing is when I try to kind of

corroborate his claims with you know, people I meet in the government, I say, "Hey, like what about what he's saying isn't true?" And they're like, "Well, a lot of it checks to be honest and like, you know, he's he's he's pretty above board as far as his background goes, but like I don't know. It's just this and they and they use these like hand-wavy ways to sort of explain it away." And I'm like, "Okay, well, why don't you go a little deeper? Why don't you look into You know, if you have the proper clearances, you know, he gave presumably hundreds of pages to Thomas Monheim, the IC Inspector General.

>> Not not allegedly, whatever word uh uh you said up to you. >> know about the amount of pages, but you know, it's like that. >> No, it doesn't matter. >> You're right. >> Yeah. And 40 first-hand people that worked directly on the craft. Not only that, but I have reason to believe that there are factions involved in UFO disclosure. And there's a specific faction that's sort of come out, you know, uh and you know, is gung-ho about a certain disclosure to a a certain

extent, and I think they weren't really uh anticipating David Grusch. >> Oh, no, they were. >> That was that was a planned thing is how to move somebody from he's lived in his whole life, you know, kind of in you're not going out there trying to be on social media. He lived his whole life, I say, in the shadows, right? This happens to a lot of these intel guys. They're not used to the public attention, and then good or bad, it hurts them or it makes them feel better. I I tell them, "Praise and blame is all the same, man.

You got to be right with yourself and your family and your dogs, and make sure" This guy got dogs. "And make sure that you're solid, because that public attention, when you bring your head out of the parapet above, it it can it can really harm people. It has harmed people. >> Absolutely. Well, I I also I think it's really important though to make clear, you know, upon questioning uh you know, him and others, I feel like it's very clear that his sources aren't only the ones of the

people who want disclosure to a certain line. His disclo- his sources go deeper than that. And so, there's this constant question of circular reporting. Are you just talking to the people who did NIDs and Bigelow and all this sort of, you know, external off-staff stuff? >> though. Even Dr. Kassem doesn't believe we should handle disclosure. Don't kick a sleeping dog. That's what I've been told every time I got to the top of the food chain, the highest George and I could ever get to every single time. It's like they practice that saying. So, even people that you're naming don't think disclosure is a good thing. Right.

So, so imagine the people that are have their whole lives have been to guard it. You can't get that out of them. That's been their job protective programs. It's protective programming. >> Why do you think that, you know, when you get to the inner layers of this program, it always comes out that like, "Oh, if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't want this stuff out." I I think it's really important to break that down. People say the legacy program. Dude, that's a holding name.

Bill is a holding name for an a team of FBI. Frank. It's a group of people. Right? So, the legacy program, when people say that, yeah, program. There are programs and they are isolated from one another. Uh so, not every single person was a technician directly on a craft that David Grusch brought to the ICIG. They had direct exposure to the programs with an S, right? So, that that's really

important to know. We call it the program, the legacy program. Bro, many names. Palm is apple in French, I was just told by GSP. Apple is apple, you know, so different names, same thing. But, it's a Rubik's Cube. It's a constellation. It is a variety of investigations with different hardware, software, and minds on them to exploit in different ways. Working on a craft is different than working with a craft, right?

>> That's what's so weird. I'm curious to hear if this is your experience cuz you've done this for for for decades longer than me. But, for my experience is I always think, "Okay, in a few months I'm going to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to figure this You know, and then and then a few months go go go by and you learn about this whole new weird aspect to this. >> Careful though. >> Yeah. How so? >> Because there are protection programs >> to misdirect >> And I have

And they're seductive. >> They're shiny. You want to believe it. You have to be careful >> of the next aspects. But it is an onion. There's layers to it. I didn't mean to say there aren't. It's just be careful with it. >> For sure. Well, no. I think you have to think with extreme epistemic humility. >> What does epistemic mean? >> Not a way of knowing. So, you can't you can't jump to any sort of conclusion. You can't snap anything to grid. You have to sort of say, "Okay, I'll I'm going to wait for corroboration for that in the future." But this could be counter intel. So, like everything. You

have to process >> If you If you listen to Dr. Lakatski said on my program with George, you know, he gave a warning about two things. One is the protective programs and and the disinformation that he knows he never identified who somebody lied while their hand was up in Congress knowingly, I think he was saying. And then he said that people believe things because they're shown in official capacity. But I'm not talking about stupid nonsense where where people are saying um Yankee Blue. That was a That was a psyop. They're trying to pretend

that existed in the capacity they say. So, he warned us against that, Dr. He also warned us very strongly, if you that we're going to lose the ability to really engage this topic without the brightest minds cuz we're not teaching inside scientifically the younger generations. And he is scared about that. That because of the secrecy, which he doesn't want full secrecy on this, but because of it, we are going to fall behind with the American um mechanics of

how to interrogate the UAP problem. >> Well, and that's what's really interesting about his new book, new insights. At the end of it, he goes into a bunch of modalities and frameworks that he clearly wants spread among young STEM students all over the country. Gets into high frequency gravitational waves and we rotate solid state rotating superconductors for gravitational manipulation and like really crazy [ __ ] >> They should hire you because let me just tell you most people don't read his book

and take from that what he means. And you have to translate complex things into you don't dumb anything down. You simplify it until the next question is asked and he needs to practice that because his voice, man, he's done more for he has actually done more from a knowledge standpoint of transparency on this than I think most people throughout history. If you go and you read his

books like you did, but we need bright minds to look at it. We need everybody asking the next question. Like when I started this, man, people thought it was this guy, right? So now we're at a consensus reality where it's like, okay there's a there there. But what's the question not being asked? And and we're so close. We're so close. >> Did you find it frustrating when he was on your podcast and you asked him about him stepping inside of a UFO

and he said, yes, but then he also was like very clear that he couldn't say much more than what he had said in the >> Is you're officially allowed to tell us that the United States government has in its possession a craft of unknown origin and you were able to access the inside. Is that correct? >> The wording that you're you read is correct. Uh you're going beyond the >> No, I'm not I'm not I'm asking you did that meeting happen?

And is that true? And it's true. Okay, so you're you're telling us you told us because you were allowed to tell us that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right? >> Why do you think he was able to get that cleared? The fact that he stepped inside of a UFO. >> Like why could he get that cleared and and I think it's a reasonable question. >> extremely reasonable. Yeah, but it creates the a conspiratorial mindset, right? Like, oh, we've distrust

government on this. Why are they allowing it now? It's like people ask questions like how is Jeremy and George not in trouble for and how do they obtain such a variety of different products from our government that I'll I'll call sensitive most likely, right? called [ __ ] journalism. And and if and if you if you are not seeing that, you are looking at the wrong thing.

So, with Lazar and Kaku, why? You asked a bunch of questions there. So, why did they let him? Well, you know, not everybody at adoption desk, you know, is is equal. You know, and you can submit a book in one way and say it's fictitious or you can submit it and say it's this is fact. And he did the fact way, right? It's Took a long time. George knows how long it took with with each book. Why did they let him? I know for a fact there are people in

the mechanisms of government that let things get through because they're on our side. I suspect that's why. It's not some big plan. Dude, if this was planned, I would kick back, relax, and stop and not worry because then we've got a plan situation. This is Vietnam. Everything has been provoked. It's been fought for millimeter by millimeter for years and decades. So, what you get from him is the absolute factual information. It

It's not theoretical. It's factual. And And so, and he says when he doesn't know >> Yeah, and he's a senior DIA rocket scientist with a long history. And I I think it's important for people to realize there's probably a war going on inside the government. And there probably elements of the {quote} legacy program that want itself outed or partially outed. Like there are members of, you know, inside these programs that think the way they're being run is ridiculous. >> That's why you had the vice president of

there's no purpose to hold back from human beings the ultimate truth, whatever that might be. I got some guesses, you know. Maybe there are UFOs and they're not from here, whatever that means. I mean, why would you build a Ferrari not to go fast? Why would you make something that appears that it could travel amongst the stars if it And that gives you a sense of at least one aspect of origin. >> there might be more. So, yeah, dude, I Look, man, this is my favorite topic and you and I got so many things we can talk about that I agree with what your

analysis is. >> Well, I want to touch on something that you just mentioned, which is um the VP at Lockheed Martin. His name was Jim >> That's right. >> And he gave a very interesting speech called the Garment of the Gods. And it's very strange. It's about the veil thinning, and he talks about extrasensory perception and consciousness. But, he's a VP at Lockheed Martin Space Systems, who's very well respected. >> The idea that everything from spoons to stones are conscious is gaining academic credibility. Who wrote that? One of the

most senior physicists in Canada. That's the only conclusion we have. Everything is conscious. We're just discussing amount and levels. >> I find him and Lakatski's language around this topic very interesting. Lakatski talks about Plato's cave and >> It affects you. >> something this big and hidden, it's like if you've ever taken a psychedelic, right? You've seen this world around you at all times, but you are not initiated to what that world is or means. So, you

might see like a tie-dyer dancing bears of the Grateful Dead, but you as soon as you breach the hole of that you you see a world that has always been hidden to you, but has always been there. And that can it has disturbed people to their core, and then they start getting angry that other people don't get to know. And what This goes back to your question. What Was it frustrating? Why did he not go outside the parameters of his book? Why was he allowed to say that? I told you why he's allowed to say it most likely.

Yeah, you can see on my face I hold my emotions like right here. You could see how I'm frustrated. I'm not trying to hurt the guy. I mean, you know, I'm sure they all got mad at me at different times. I'm just pressing cuz I know people want to know, and he can't say the words that aren't printed because he's the kind of guy you want protecting secrets for America. He's the exact kind of guy. >> It's so It's so It's so interesting and it's so messy because it's like ideally, if this thing is like a portal or a gateway, the object is, uh, to

a new sense of the actual true nature of this should be for humanity. It should be for everybody. >> It is. Humans human beings knowledge and information we we own that. Right, it is. So, having that held back, you know, you know the reason. You know, okay, America first weaponization, strategic surprise, strategic advantage, technological advantage. Like I get that. Now, that's some like stone age thinking when we're in The Jetsons, you know, that we're we're past that now.

So, but that is I understand what So, they need to formally acknowledge the known facts, formally acknowledge the unknown facts. They really need to define the terms and boundaries and parameters and topography of what we're looking at because if they don't do that, if they don't if they give us like this partial disclosure of stuff, then we get kind of lost with what it means to be human. We get lost with understanding our position in what it means to exist and

there might be questions that are unasked there that are profound that have profound answers that we just I'm like eating the mic. >> Now, you're good. >> haven't been able to ask. And how do we evolve if we don't have the right questions? So, we need You don't need to tell somebody how to make a nuclear bomb, but you need to tell them nuclear physics exists and you can study it and try to protect that part. So, we got to get to the point where we're all at a consensus reality that matches up a little bit better with

actual reality. And if we if we do that, then we're going to have questions. And those questions, the answers might be a little disturbing if you're a person that gets disturbed. Um but it will be the truth. And the truth, that's what's going to help us evolve. And so that's why I'm so upset with the secret keeper. >> Well, it makes sense that they wouldn't disclose it because on the one hand, you're kind of seating your authority to

this higher thing that's flying with impunity at your most around your most sensitive sites, around your nuclear installations, tampering with the nukes themselves. So you don't want to admit that if you're in some position of governmental authority. And then you don't know as far as, you know, what could confer a tactical advantage to the adversary. Maybe you haven't figured it out, but it's this weird cat and mouse game theory thing vis-à-vis China and Russia. And so it's this weird thing they have this asymmetric knowledge on the nature of reality, which they should not have any right to vis-à-vis normal

people or scientists. But their incentives make it so that, you know, they're just not going to go full open kimono anytime soon. >> Well, don't go so fast or so quick. [laughter] I mean, you know, what are we fighting for? >> Unless we can wrest it out of them. >> We can provoke. >> We you you can't just like how you can't give anybody anything cuz cuz all you can do, you put it in their hand, but it's an object. You can't give anybody anything. You can lead by example. You can't take anything. It's not just one

person's thing. You need to provoke, and they need to give. And when they give, you need to receive. And that's that So I'm not trying to be um oblique here. Um it it is an ontological issue. This thing, an ontological I I believe means uh relating to the existence of of being and existence itself, relating to the existence of being, right? that what it means? Yeah. So, this is The UFO thing is a symbol. There are things a lot deeper than UFOs,

I suspect. >> I agree. I think it's the tip of the >> Yeah, but it's a symbol. It's a symbol of freedom of thought. Mhm. Because if you if we can talk about it with the right words and factual information, then we have freedom of speech. Freedom of speech causes debate. Debate causes thought. Then we have freedom of thought. It's [ __ ] beautiful, man. And what are we fighting >> It is beautiful, and I hope we're on the verge of a a paradigm shift because I mean, how do you feel now that the Department of War has a website with

more hits than, you know, people in America? And uh you know, we we have stuff coming out, and you can say that the stuff often is repackaged, repurposed things that have already kind of existed in the open-source world. I find it hilarious that that is what's making, you know, the Citadel scientific gatekeepers like Neil deGrasse Tyson take it seriously. Is the fact that it gets a stamp of approval from authority. So, it kind of shows that they were never doing science in the first place. But how do you feel? Do you feel Do you feel vindicated? Do you think it's going to keep going, and we're going to get

more? Or How do you feel about where we're at? I I don't when I'm when I'm fighting, when I'm going forward. That's like the death gargle if you're doing martial athletics is thinking about what you just did wrong or, you know, what what happened yesterday. You need to be fully forward-facing and forward-looking. So, what I feel is optimistic, but I'm an optimist, you know? But now there's tangible evidence that we should all

have optimism, but don't get complacent in that optimism. Optimism is only powerful if there's action behind it. So, what we need to do in every single way, every person, we need to fight for what we want. If we want truth, we have to fight for truth. If you want inner peace, we have to fight for inner peace. It's counterintuitive, but it's true, okay? People ask me all the time, "What can I do?" It's like they feel powerless. "Well, I'm not this. I don't have this a microphone. I'm starting a podcast."

I figured it out. use your voice. Now, how do you do that? I talked to some grade school teachers, I talked to some high school teachers, and I talked to some professors at major universities all in one weekend, right? They were all there at the McMenamins UFO Fest, which is the finest thing in the world. You got to come with me next time. You get a golf cart and a six-pack of beer. It sounds epic. And I was put in jail one morning, and that's a true fact. It's hilarious. So,

what you can do is you can show other people your curiosity. If you have a a class You None of us have the answers. You got a class? Teach it. What do you know? How do we separate critical thinking? The average singular person with nothing, their five followers on um Twitter, and they're like, "What do I do?" There's a woman that came up to me. She's a little bit older. I'm like, "Oh, don't worry if you have five followers. Say what you're thinking and tag every representative that is

fighting for this. Tag the Department of War. Tag @energy. That's the Department of Energy. Tag them. And here's why. I know that's what you should do. Because I get calls from people that saw the tags, and it affects them personally, and it starts building. So, imagine if everybody did that. Reb Balona, great job. Keep fighting. Don't Oh my gosh, people read that stuff, and they go. I mean, I notoriously don't because it's toxic for me. There's organized attempts at that, you know.

But, that's what the average person can do. If you're a scientist, look at it from a scientific perspective. If you're a philosopher, look at it from a philosophic perspective. Teach it, pass it on, show people your curiosity, and they'll be weaponized just like you and me, Jesse. >> Let's go. >> Um I want to talk about how you got into UFOs, which is described very well in this new movie, Sleeping Dog. >> The first person that that I ever pointed a camera at and was like, "Oh, [ __ ] this is like a Rubik's Cube. You know, I got to I got to I got to get

I'm not going to repeat what people can watch in a movie, right? I like you. I think like everybody who gets interested in something other than themselves, you know, they look outward. And the ancient Greeks used to say that the stars were pinpricks from the beaks of So, that was a beautiful cosmology. And then along came science and stepped in and goes, "Actually, it's [ __ ] cooler

than that." Right? >> That sounds cooler than science to me. >> No, I don't know. I I the orbiting planets, galaxies, I'm come on. >> I'm going to take the beaks of hummingbird pin prints, but >> So, I love hummingbirds, man. They're [ __ ] fantastic. >> They're amazing. >> What they can do. Anyway, um so, I got curious. I've said this before, you know, I heard George Knapp's voice interviewing a guy named Bob Lazar on the radio.

They were replaying it on one station, probably K-Rock or something. I was a dumbass kid. I don't know what station, I wasn't really tuned into the whole Coast to Coast thing. I was 13. And s- something really happened to me that day. And I I I people make jokes when I say my my curiosity is weaponized. So I sort of make a joke. It's like when people call me, you know, "Fuck you, Forename" online. My family all now calls me Forename. It's like you have to embrace the thing, right? >> We do. >> So what I embraced in that moment is that Bob Lazar said it's not a reactionary propulsion

It's a I think he said it's a field propulsion system. You're falling where you need to get. Which is the story of my life. >> Actually, which is hilarious. >> But you're like falling to it. And that just like flipped this switch in me. And I was like, "Holy [ __ ] If what he's saying is true about travel, then distance no longer matters cuz everybody told me um I wasn't into UFOs and stuff, but when it came up when you're a young kid, it's like all the

scientists, like the Neil deGrasse Tyson's, "Well, there's no way. Life is probably way out in the universe, but don't be silly. They can't be coming here. The distances are so vast. You'd have to travel the speed of light almost for 36 years to get to our closest planet." All this [ __ ] And I thought, "Damn, they really got it figured out." Unless Lazar was right. So I was like because from rockets to roller skates, it's um push something out the back, you go forward, called reactionary propulsion system. So all of a sudden, if you're falling

into time space, distance is irrelevant. And I was sitting there as a dumbass kid thinking, "Oh my god, is this guy telling the truth?" That's what I was thinking cuz I thought then, obviously, it's not hummingbirds. Obviously, there are tons of planets that are in the Goldilocks zones in hundreds of billions of galaxies. Not just our galaxy. And I'm like, is he telling the truth? And then I went and, you know, just like met up with my girlfriend and started doing jiu-jitsu more and like just dropped it

like it's hot. But I never forgot that moment, that feeling. It taught me that authority is something we bestow upon people, not something that they truly are. They can have more knowledge than you. That's what the word sensei means is born before. Knowledge in you is born before knowledge in me, so you're my sensei at this, right? So everybody's teaching each other. a sensei is somebody that he has or she has certain knowledge

that's born before, so you pass it on one generation, otherwise and it's gone. Cuz it's a physical art. It's not written down. It's transmitted physically. You have to actually choke someone out, right? So So to to just back up cuz I get so excited about this moment. I feel it as if it was yesterday. that's how it really got started. But I was a kid. I was sure I was just going to do the martial athletics thing my whole life. I didn't think I was smart enough to do

other things. And then I thought, well, maybe I am, but this is what I like doing. So I'm going to do what I like cuz if I do what I like, I'm going to get good at it cuz I'm going to practice it 10,000 times. Then all hell broke loose. And this is what you were talking about. >> As you know, we have a new starship. Course we have a health care center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is? I restore's Alumina face mask. This mask is like a medbed for your face. It's lightweight, super convenient, cordless, and runs red,

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Elite plus Illuma face mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code JESSE at irestore.com. That's JESSE, j e s s e at irestore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. >> Because of an illness, I couldn't physically train. So, I said, "What am I interested in?" Fell into art, fell into getting a camera. >> That was cool to see that you did the that Sharon Tate exhibit. That was so that was amazing. I I like didn't

realize how deep and rich of an art background that you had and then that was kind of an expression of the pain of the illness that you fell into. >> you learn that from the movie? >> Okay, yeah. >> [ __ ] I >> I did. >> Okay. And it really the movie's really good and I recommend everybody watch it because it really it helped me understand your psychology. >> And you where you're coming from, what you're motivated by. >> And I think uh UFO space now, you know, I didn't I didn't need that from the movie cuz we've gotten to know each other. But UFO space can be a hall of

mirrors and if somebody doesn't know you personally, I think uh it's a really good way to kind of get to know you. >> That's what that's what the kid sold me on, you know, that and the self-defense mechanism of showing my personal life, but um yeah, but I think that moment you were talking about was okay, I've got this camera. First time I pointed it at somebody, they spilled the beans. It was my grandmother, right? And she told me a story about my family that she had kept hidden from everybody and she was like 90 or something and I recorded it. I'm

like, holy [ __ ] So, I pointed it at John Lear. Because I was like, who can I get to that seems to have these wild ideas? I didn't say crazy, it wasn't crazy at all. Very sane man, you know, CIA pilot, did some incredible stuff, one of the youngest people ever to climb the Matterhorn. The dude has had so many life experiences people don't know. >> Won a bunch of flight records as well, like really amazing esteemed pilot. So, he called me back

And it was so like come over to Las Vegas, Nevada. Y'all be here. It was the weirdest call and I [ __ ] packed my bags and I looked at my wife and there's this scene in the movie, I know the kid and my voice is all hoarse. That was after that first trip. The first thing I Michael just I said, when you make it when you tell this story, don't put anything visually out of order, just say it exactly like it happened. First time I rolled up to to his gate, filming it. Like that's all real. Exactly in the order it happened. So, because of his openness to me,

I mean, he didn't tell me [ __ ] about UFOs at first, but he was testing me, right? But um that's how it started and then I would just see these these floods of people over the years just coming to his house. He'd let everybody in. They'd tell him sometimes the craziest and you could tell they weren't wrapped so tight stories and he just listened like like he cared cuz he did care. And then other people come in and they were CIA, FBI, NSA, um amazing pilots. I mean, just all these

people, this world of people that I would never have had contact with because I had a camera, they would talk to me. It look they mistook me as a authority figure with that camera. But but what John did was he had no And that's the trap. >> The trap is you and actual functional reality start to blur when you have heard it all. >> You see he did. >> Start talking about soul catchers on the moon and

>> I can't I can't verify his craziest theory his his wildest theory. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Can't verify. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, uh what did he tell you that did check because I think it's important to caveat about him. He broke the F-117 to George Knapp. He actually knew a lot about advanced aviation well ahead of anybody in the kind of civilian world and was kind of you know hanging out at Dreamland at Area 51 before anybody knew it was even real. So he definitely knew some real stuff.

>> Bro, I have original photographs from 1977 lake level with a chain going across. John Lear drove out there many times back in the day when security was different. He came I'll I'll I'll show you the It's amazing. He wrote to me, "Let's It's Groom Lake, you [ __ ] Let's go

Lear jet, eight-track stereo, became Motorola, his company the whole crazy Uh worked on some amazing stuff with people that you talk about sometimes by the way. >> John Lear and Brown. >> Not saying [ __ ] You're going to talk about what you know you will be you'll be my sensei on that. what he does cuz he's so John Lear, he takes his camera boom boom boom boom boom. He sees the dust trails in the desert. You see the dust trails of the What the [ __ ] is this guy doing out there? Daylight sitting on the back of his truck tailgating with a beer, right? He takes the 35 mm film thing out of the

hides it under his ashtray, puts in another, does an identical set of photos. And when they came, they said, "John Lear Okay, well, but you can't be here." And you know, "Get We're confiscating the camera." He goes, "No, this is my camera." "Well, we're taking the film." They took the film and left. John drives home. That's how I have a photo of Groom Lake at lake level with a chain that I will give you a print out. >> Whoa, crazy. >> is 77. >> 19 That was the year I was born. >> Oh my god. >> He did that. >> That's crazy.

>> did he tell me that was true? >> He did break the story of the stealth fighter, but it was Ned Day. It was George Knapp's um mentor in journalism. Shout out to Ned Day. Big sip here. >> Shout out to Ned. I've learned about Ned from George. He also knew a lot about CIA operations in the um when they were flying drugs

cuz he'd never ask what's what was in his flight. He'd fly anywhere at any time. And he gave me all these like this footage of him going in like these tiny little runways made of dirt flying for the CIA. >> Oliver North contra situation >> drugs. A lot of the time. He he says, "I don't know. I'm just a bus driver, you know." >> There's a famous photo of him with G. Gordon Liddy. And like you've got you're like Who This guy's in with like the spookiest of spooks. >> Right. And that's why people think people would try to influence him in the negative ways, and maybe they did, but most people like me love There's

something about John Lear. He had a laugh. I've only heard one other human being on planet Earth, and one day I hope to achieve this laugh. It is the joyous belly laughing almost like wink at the same time, you're on to You're on to something. It's just this is really inspiring laugh. Um so, he rolled deep with some people. So, he verify verifiably gave good evidence um about a whole bunch of terrestrial stuff to the news station in Las Vegas at

KLAS. He had a credibility there. He was running for senator state senator at the time or something. Um and then he walks in with this UFO And nobody, Ned Day, George's mentor, he said I think he said if if this was I would have already known about it, George is like peeking over. He's like a young reporter, you know. He's like, "Hey, John, I'll I'll check out the And that's how it started. So, that's why. Did I answer your question? >> You did.

>> Sometimes people say I don't answer questions. I'm just pumped. >> No, that was pretty thorough answer. Describe your first time meeting Bob >> Oh, wow. >> I now I'm it's so surreal. I mean, I'm honored to have had that experience myself. >> It teaches you a lot. Use the word honored a lot. Like you know how we all have the same amount of time? So, people choose if they want to spend it together, right? It should always be an honor with somebody you're hanging

because you're both choosing in space time with limited amount of life. But anyway, so first time meeting Bob Lazar. Well, first of all reverse the tape. You know that I wanted to know if he's a liar or not. That was the only thing I wanted to If he was not a liar, then I mean it's so like then distance doesn't matter. That's in my brain, caveman brain, that's what I thought. I want to know if he's a liar cuz the distance doesn't matter. That's my line of thinking. So, John kept telling me that George

Knapp won't talk to anybody cuz I've been trying for years to get to George. Um Bob Lazar, there's no way. Um but he does, you know, John always wanted him to come for like a birthday party his. He always had these big birthday parties. Really wanted to brag that Lazar was his friend, right? So, he kept kind of telling me, you know, Lazar will show up this year. And I'm always like, "Fucking call him then, you know?" Like, I I would love to just I no cameras out of So, what happened was answer your question. One day,

I'm just filming with John like I did every day for years or every week at at least I'd go out there every 2 weeks. So, Oh god, what happened? Oh, and he goes, "Lazar's coming over." It's first thing he says to me. I go, "Oh, shit." Cuz I got my cameras already all set up. We're doing our daily thing. >> How well known was Bob at the time? >> Right. See, it's very different now. >> It's very different. So niche. >> Yeah, right. >> So like >> nobody knew his name unless you're a UFO

nerd on the parranet, called it, right? >> It's like a very popular city councilman or something. >> It was less than that. >> Less than that. >> But in UFO land, >> he was UFO Jesus. You know, he was the >> You know, the the unwanted He didn't like he didn't want the attention. He's like the weirdest conundrum of a guy. I call him the the Bigfoot of UFOs. Is he Is he real? Does he even really exist? So, my first experience meeting him was like first I go total respect mode. I'm

like, "I can't I'm not even a filmmaker, never made a film." Putting away all the cameras. I don't want him feel like he's walking into a bear trap. And I'm like, "John, just talk with your friend." But, I knew that all that was out there were these tiny little clips of him, the small little hard-to-find interviews, and that the majority, 99% of what you read by getting to know Lear and all this, wasn't true. So, here's my pitch. He comes in, I'm just looking at him, you know, um really good to meet you. Yeah, I'm making a movie, uh I

think. Um when I got a respectful moment of silence. Bob, um I don't know if you're telling the but I do know, from knowing John, the entire world within this UFO little silo, is saying things that aren't true about you. And if And And 3 minutes of you talking would completely change the of um the ratio of what people know, because it's just not out there.

Do you mind if I push record and ask you a couple questions about UFOs? And that's when you see that footage, and he just unloaded. >> I know there are alien craft here >> from another planet. I now I saw other ones, but I was inside one. I know it was not made on Earth. I know it was made with the materials that we cannot fabricate, we cannot duplicate, and we've never been able to. I know it uses a power source that's so advanced that

we could only dream of something along those lines. And the energy density on it is phenomenal. >> And I And I was just looking at him like, holy [ __ ] First time you ever hear him like, [ __ ] the noise. So, so he So, I thank him, he sits down with Lear, and never releases footage. I Michael put it in the movie cuz I gave him 20 years of my footage, and he just used it, and it's he's with Lear, and he's arguing with Lear about Lear's crazy ideas, right? And And and so you

see Bob all the way back then being like the rational >> The Grays were controlling the soul sucker on the moon and when you die it sucks up your soul and it gets reprocessed unless the Grays steal it. I mean, come on, John. What the What the >> And it just it just it just what it was like was like okay. Now I really got to find out. Well, he's he's a walking mind [ __ ] Because he >> a cool term. >> He is. Cuz you I So I had the same

motivation as you. And as you know, and I and and I you know, as of a few years ago probably netted out more skeptical than believer when it came to his story. Not necessarily the like surface level details, but I thought maybe there was sort of like a cover for something else or something. >> do you know? The information is all that you Whatever information you have, you have to base your assessment. >> 100% and I at the you know, at the time and even now have immense respect for Jacques Vallée, sort of godfather of UFO research and he had said some negative

>> things. I pushed him on it once at my ranch alone. He and me were sitting there and I love him with all my heart. This is nothing negative, but I pushed him. I don't want to get into it, but like what Where did that come from it specifically? Why do you say that? How do you know that? Do you know that or are you just saying that? And I'm just >> we are friends, but I stick with I stick where I stand on that one. >> It wasn't compelling, but uh but dude, he's incredible and everything else >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> is compelling, but that that idea of >> But you stressed you wanted to know

where he was coming from. You felt >> there something I don't know? >> Tell me. I knew where it all came from. The I know exactly specifically who it came from, why they said it, what their second hand knowledge is that all in the scientific world they start spreading around that somehow it so you know, that he's a marionette, you know, >> Right, he's some sort of MK Ultra like he had [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. But but I I I do want to address one thing which is that I did have and do have a secret.

And that's for me. And what that is is why I knew that Bob Lazar was telling it as it is, meaning a facility like that exists. Exactly what's inside of it exists. I wanted to find out if Lazar was actually there and saw it with his own eyes or if he was lying and being used as a marionette. So that day, I knew for the first time, cuz I asked him certain questions, I knew that it was worthy of

deep deep deep investigation. It took me >> So you already knew about the existence of S-4? >> that in I say that in the movie that there was every a lot of people knew about the existence of S-4 >> What I'm trying to >> But it sounds like you had a pretty good >> What I'm what I'm trying to do is go as far as I can, but we have to respect one thing as a journalist. When someone says to you this is my this is for you to know, not to say.

If you break that one [ __ ] time, you're done. >> Nobody will ever trust you. And it's so tempting sometimes. >> I'm just trying to stay as cleanly I'm not being oblique. I'm like, you know, it's a bright room, sunglasses off. I'm trying to tell you what I can while respecting my oath. >> Yeah, of course. >> And and that is that I didn't go >> You had good reason to believe >> Yes. I had >> I had very solid good reason hm to know

that Lazar was correct. Now was he there? Right? Was he there and did he see it? You know, cuz that's another trick that's played when you're spilling information. Like use people as emissaries to propagate a truth or a lie. So, I hope I explained that to the satisfaction of your amazing and beautiful audience. And you know, that's that I had cause to want to bullet test Lazar. And then meeting him was the first step to me saying, "Okay, this guy is not a liar,

but I need to really find out." >> Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it worked, sort of. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. You know what that sounds like? Your team before you had Quo.

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Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to That's q u o.com/jesse. But I need to really find out. >> Yeah, and I think it was something I want to talk to you about is is the fact that you uh really corroborated his presence at

S4 Area 51 because you you spoke to some other people that one of the pilots that flew um the Blackbird really cool [ __ ] plane. Um yeah, I mean, look in so many ways not public, but also public. I got one dude on Ancient Aliens to give his testimony that, you know, he saw Lazar there, you >> Yeah, getting off getting on a bus. So, it doesn't prove flying saucers, but it proves Lazar was there. >> It proves he was there, yeah. >> Oh, dude, there's so many things like

that that That's that's what I always say when people are like, "Do you believe him?" I'm like, I 100% at this point think he was there and I 100% think S4 exists and then I'm high probability on the story, you know? >> It's a fact. >> can't I can't say I'm 100% on, you know? But after spending time with him, why I say he's a walking mind [ __ ] is I asked him all my most skeptical questions and the dude didn't bat an eye. He was cool with me just hurling everything and to him he's probably

annoyed, right? Cuz he hears all these things ad nauseam and this is like, you know, one of his last kind of media tour maybe he does something else, but as you know, he hates media. And he's just getting like all these skeptical questions thrown at him from this kid he just met and and he was handled all of them gracefully and he's a great he's a great human being and he's a fighter. People don't know that. Like he is he's very strong. Um he does he just doesn't want more drama in his life and he doesn't want to cause

more pain, which I can relate to to his family, to his beautiful wife, and all the animals >> He's had five heart attacks to you since >> You allowed to say that? >> Yeah, it was on it was on our episode. He talked about it publicly. >> So yeah, there's a lot of personal >> He said it's just from stress. He said his arteries are clear. >> I've had five heart attacks >> from stress and and other things from stress and um look man, I I really try to keep the personal stuff away because I've had problems with that. Um but there was something in what you said um

just kind of meeting him it's it's not good enough to say, well, I met him and I can tell he's he's he's not a liar. No, I wanted tangible actual actual proof, you know, and oh yeah, I found that. And so the question then becomes do you protect this guy? Do you blow up his life? Dude, I started making the movie. Um here's what happened. I never sign anything with anybody and I don't make them do it. Right? So I show Lazar the movie and I go, look, here's the deal, man.

I'm not a filmmaker, this is I I want people to see who you are. It's not about proving anything. I just want them to see what how I've gotten to know you after all these years, right? We've become friends. You you let me in your life. Um so look at it through through that lens and I I I said it's a gamble. Right now, you're so terrorized by anytime you say something, people twist it and they get angry. At that time,

Jesse, people were really angry at Bob. He was you know, it was attack attack attack. Now he's like with you up on stage in Austin and everybody's >> That everybody loves him. >> But imagine the risk. So I say, look, I don't know if anybody's going to pick up this movie. I don't know. But, watch it. Think about it." And I and you can ask him. I said this. I said, "If you want, I'll scrap the whole thing." I didn't sign Have you signed anything, you know? This is to me, I think, important.

I give him the movies with his wife, and they're they're you know, popcorn. Like, let's watch it. And there's like excitement. Like, "Oh, this is pretty neat, you know?" And he'll call me right after. Call me right after. 24 hours goes by. Not a call. 48 hours. I mean, I have like the receipts. Like, my phone I thought it was so funny I screenshotted it. So, I just calmed myself. I said, "Okay. Okay, what's going to go on?" He calls me. And he you know, he gets >> like you know, he he's struggling cuz he

knows how many years I spent. And he knows that I'm I want to do this. I want the world to see this. And it was just like, "No." And I go, "Okay, well, what?" So, here I am being calm. I can actually do that, by the way. I can instantaneously be calm. >> But, I don't like to. So, I calm myself. I say, "Okay, what what what did you not like?" But, then "Well, why did you show" He didn't yell, but he's like, "What why did you do

And I go, "Oh, let me walk you through why I did that scene. Why showed that personal part of your life?" "Oh, well, that makes sense. I'm winning here. I'm winning, you know? I'm like, "Okay, well, what else?" We went through the thing. And he, to his credit, he's like, "Okay, you know, you made a you made a good movie. I Okay." And I'm like, So, that was the moment where the world almost didn't see it. And then how that

would have changed things is that people would not have seen who he was as a human and he would have been this totem pole that you could just put gasoline on and light it on fire or worship and you should do neither. >> He'd probably be relegated to like deep corners of the web like like Reddit forums and [ __ ] Like people wouldn't really I mean cuz then you guys went on Rogan and that is the most viewed Rogan episode of all time. I think it has like 66 or 67 million views or something.

>> People hungry for this. To Joe's credit, it also took an act of God to get Bob there and like Joe um had asked me about my first film Patient 17. He actually the first >> DM I ever did was Joe taught me the via it was a it was a it was a a public post you probably find it and I was like I don't know how or something and he goes, "Dude, you have to follow me." I'm like, "Oh." Cuz I follow and then you learn and I never sent a a DM and it was about

Patient 17. >> So it was like this weird thing it was a movie I did before prior >> I want to talk about Patient 17 but >> And um so then Joe to his absolute credit kind of kept tabs I think on the stuff going along the way. We weren't friends or anything at that time. It was like, you know, you never know where you stand but he just asked me out of the blue one day how I remember it. He he asked me "Can you um ask Bob and you guys come on the show?" And I don't I don't know if

it was what the size of the show or anything. I'm not following I'm not tracking that stuff. I knew it was big though. So the thing is I said, "Joe." It was a phone call. I'm like, "I I'm like literally a month ago, you know, two months ago this came out. He said he would do one interview. One." And I took him on Larry King. That was like the one thing he would do to promote them We sit next to me. The one thing and I said I don't want to do that. But Joe said these magic words to me. He goes, "Can you just ask him?"

And before I talked, I thought, "Can I I can. Okay, I can." So, yes, I can. Absolutely. Cuz I would love it. I would love for him to be heard more, right? Not just about the film, just Bob, you know? And And how cool have somebody else who can interrogate him, you know what I mean? And so So, then >> And in a long form, you know, Larry King was I love, you know, great great legend, but he's got the suspenders and it's like this legacy sort of format, you know? Rogan's is natural. Yeah, unnatural. Yeah, Rogan's got the long form, you know? And for people to build

trust, that's really important. >> thinking about nothing. I was just like in this um world state where it's like UFO Vietnam and someone's asking me to pull this guy back out somewhere to go on. It was months after the initial movie came, but right before Netflix got it. So, basically, the funny thing is is um I mean, it's hilarious. I was I was he goes, he goes, "Is he a disc jockey?" Bob said I go, "Bob, look, George and I are coming out because we have a a premiere or a screening um in Michigan.

So, we're coming out. Let's just talk about it then." So, I I remember texting Joe like um "Okay, I'm going to need you you to ask him because I've I've really tried to do all this stuff with Bob, you know? And I don't want to" And so, then there's this really funny phone call and George is standing over here and we I said, "Bob, just get on the phone with Joe, dude. He's a good dude, dude. Just get on the phone. Like, you can say no, but just hear the dude out. You know how people Bob, you know, fill in the voids on you? Just don't fill in the voids. Just Just talk to him." And I was like, "Whoa." So, I get

him on the speakerphone and and Joe talks to him. And I remember Bob saying, "Okay, I'll I'll think about it." That's a win, right? I hope it works, you know, you know, I hope it works. I love to see that. George snapped a photo at that exact minute and behind us is this 80s poster of like John Lear's face with Lazar and nap and there's me and Bob leaning over and that's the moment that really like Bob Lazar was about maybe to tell the

world one more time what happened to him on a big ass platform and just do it. I mean, different than a movie, right? And my by golly did he ever? And that episode I think why people loved it so much is because we are all starved to know the one thing. Is this true? Any of it? All of it? Some of it?

I don't know. But it was cool as [ __ ] >> It was cool as [ __ ] >> It was amazing. And he didn't put the bone down, right? He didn't put the bone So, you could stop there but he's had on I I get so joyous. Even if I don't agree with somebody in that what they're saying, people are on there saying, "Bob's a liar." I'm like, "Okay, well, I can tell you what you don't know, but um he he's he's brought it into a popular

culture thing where I think a lot of us wouldn't exist in the same way with this if he didn't allow he he allowed the discussion to occur. >> Well, you were inextricably a big part of that. So, I you know, I hope you just take that as a compliment. >> I was sitting on I was sitting in the >> Um I want to get into some other amazing people that you've sort of broken out into the public and are now part of the whole UFO conversation. Who is Dylan

>> Okay. Do you think your audience would prefer if I just give you really short direct answers. >> No, I think you I think they want the full deep I love what we're doing now, which is just getting into it and you >> So I can do yes and no, right? >> Dylan Borland. >> That's Larry King. >> That is all respect all respect to Larry King. Respect to >> was awesome. Do you know what he did when I walk in with Larry King and Bob? I'm like, you know, nervous but for Bob because I'm making him do this thing early morning. I come in Larry King looks at me and he and he just like winks at me like a

you're going to be okay, kid. But I wasn't the nervous one, you know, it was funny. He was a cool dude. >> He was a cool dude. Yeah. >> So um Dylan Borland, so balls like church bells animal lover and protector

nervous at times >> endured extreme adversity He doesn't have a road map cuz other people got [ __ ] cleared. By getting stuff cleared, he would expose himself. So he has to dance a line until he let him talk. he has endured

extreme adversity like you said. And people don't know all that. I was just with him for 5 days. We were just having a good time at making Minville, you know, the and I I know I I'm going to try to keep the private stuff out, but he just say he's very loved and has a loving and is an absolute in my assessment hm honest, straightforward. He's a little

OCD like me. Like he's like, "Did you lock your room?" I'm like, "I think so." He like ran back up to check the door, you know. so he's a fastidious is the what I like to call it. When someone's like a fastidious, you know. That's who Dylan Borland is as a human He also you should trust. What did he experience? Okay. That I can talk about.

There were four lights in total. Uh one light on each corner and a larger light in the center two to three times the size of the corner lights. The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint, but on top of the craft was this lava plasma some type of fluid going over and around the craft. >> What a lava plasma? That was spending that I if I had a nickel for every time someone described the seemingly intelligent

That engineers have described to me. engineers that really bothers them when they can't they don't have the words for something, you know. Um what it made them feel. Mhm. An intelligence. Now Dylan didn't say that part, but I've if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that. So yeah, that's undulating lava lava lamp style and then shoot straight you you'd mistake it as a star

and then took off on a military base. That's what you know and the world really knows up till the very minute of what he experienced, but a lot more there's a lot more. >> I have direct first-hand knowledge and exposure to crash recovery, reverse engineering, integration of technology >> As well as the most important piece of technology on the planet and it's not the craft themselves.

It would be the power source. You can make that a sausage yourself. >> It is your sense that that craft was being housed at the military base or was doing sort of recon from above at the military base or is it like anybody's guess and he's open to either interpretation? Yeah, if he doesn't know, I can't know. I don't know. it is a conundrum. What was it what was it doing? Were we operating? It was it ours? Is it a program where we utilize

things? I mean, look, if we have that technology, everybody's been lying to So if we have it I I I really want us to have that technology. And there there are some arguments Do you believe we have crafts? Do you believe we have crafts and saucers and hangers? Oh no, we do. Yeah, yeah, the but but I'm saying I guess what I'm saying is some people claim that we have a modicum of control over them, like even Lazar. You know, they gave him the impression that we were flying it. Obviously, it

seems that way. Low performance has So, these triangles, there is evidence that would make me think that we've done something, like a retrofit, but it's not something that there's a thumbprint for that is easily findable. I don't think there is one. So, I think at best what we're doing, and this leads into other things that were told to me by an intelligence agency that I said for the first time publicly cuz my lawyer said, "Well, if they said that to you, you can't." Dylan never said it to me. They did. And that's well documented.

So, I was able to say three things last weekend that were never said before, and Dylan couldn't answer any of them. And to to to to get to your I'm sorry. Get to get to I think your >> say what the intelligence agency said? >> Yeah, yeah. I I I I can't, but then we go on for a whole different tangent. It's just broke news. It's breaking today while we're doing this. >> Would you just high level the the >> Yeah, I I I I can't, but let's just finish this one little triangle thing. Which is I think, um, there is evidence that we,

meaning the the United States, have been able to put a non- into a constructed body of other craft. The problem is is it can't handle it. It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto. You know, and then you try to drive that fast on those wheels, you're dead, right? So, that's where I'm at. At this point, the evidence has directed me to that, that we've made some exploitive derivative technologies based on it, but

the skin of the craft >> power source, the ability to make it work at all. Well, even if you can't retrofit it onto some That's what it it sounds like what you're saying. >> So, I'm thinking that it just does work. >> And then you're trying to harness that and not have the wheels break off. You know what I'm saying? So, it's like, you know, you can >> Slap it on there and >> Slap it on there. Yeah, exactly. So, I that's to the best of my knowledge,

without getting too specific and in the weeds for your audience, that's to the to the best of my knowledge. >> And then the three things I I said Is that what you wanted to know next? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I said that I was directly told by a lead of the ODNI's DIG, the Director's that Dylan Borland four drawings, I think it was,

which was a lie. because it was filmed. So, why the lie? We'll talk about that, I think it was I think it was four is what they said. So, one was the craft, and everybody knows that. That's just he saw it out of base, doesn't know But the told me

that he had told them about Project Rubik's Cube. Now, if that is a classified UAP then nobody should be telling me that, especially if it was said in a SCIF. Now, the problem is I already knew about I don't know the full nature of Project Rubik's Cube, I think they were trying to entrap him to see what he had said to me in Georgia in private. He had never said that me.

But I knew about it already. Multiple sourcing, right? >> So George and I were like, when O D and I told us that, we said, you said it, not us. >> So he shouldn't get in trouble, to be >> He can't. >> He never said it. >> said it. >> So I asked him on stage, >> But his face did look down and I don't know I don't know I don't know what >> I tried not to look at him. I said, I'm not even going to look at you. I wasn't trapping him, either. >> No, sure. >> You know, I called Chuck McCullough

>> Like like earlier that morning, and I said, here's the deal. You know O D and I was targeting me and George, and they were targeting us and all these whistleblowers, and then we got proof, by the way. The CIA, the whole thing that happened in in Congress, we'll get to that if you So they're targeting us, but I said, Chuck, they told me about Project Rubik's Cube. And it kind of long silence with Chuck. And there's two more things. And he goes, well, he goes, you're a You have no They have no authority that if they said that to you, it's on them.

That's on them. I said, so I can say it. Can I try to get Dylan to confirm that? And he goes, essentially, as a lawyer, right, if he knows or doesn't know that he does he is not in a legal position to admit or anything about that. And I said, well, I'm going to I'm going to ask him if you say I can say that on stage, because I think it's important people now know. And I know Dylan can handle himself. Nothing pre-planned. He stood up in front of Congress and handled himself, right? So I asked him,

>> I was told by ODNI agent that Dylan to ICIG in release of the intelligence agencies that there is a UFO program and it's called Rubik's Cube. That's what he said. That's what That's what I heard from the which they shouldn't be calling me and telling me what was described in the skiff, should they?

Right. So, I'm a journalist, so I listen, and I am testifying to you whether you believe me or not. I'm not a journalist to agree with men for you to believe me. You don't need to believe Project Rubik's Cube. I'm not going to be looking at you. Have Have you ever testified to ICIG about a containing a UAP called Project Rubik's Cube? I want to try my best.

Don't do it. You said I am not in a skiff. you want me to answer that back question, ask for a damn receipt for the whistleblowers. Ask Congress and the executive branch to give it to us, and I'll answer that question. Why don't >> In my read, that says if he is protected as a whistleblower, >> and they want

him to be able to talk freely, then he will absolutely talk about that. So, he didn't confirm nor deny it. Smart >> And now it gets weird. Through the intelligence agency charges on the call, through the intelligence agency, they said he drew, obviously, triangle that he saw or whatever, but in the ICIG that he drew a pyramid-shaped power source. Pyramid, triangle by angle of observation, pyramid-shaped power

Non-human we're talking about. NHI. I I don't know if we publicly said where that was being housed, but I have already reported this to multiple agencies that were trying to find where the legacy [ __ ] was being held. So, this is like I already reported all of this what I knew, right? We're holding facilities when they're trying to hide it from DOJ who's trying to, you know, find out where the stuff As a journalist, right? You

When when the American government says they're hiding from us, I openly will try to help an agency go hold them accountable, like another agency. Oh, I'll [ __ ] help them, no problem. I'll tell them something. Not talking about whis We're not Not talking about sources or witnesses, you know, nothing to do with that. Third thing that was told to me by ODNI is that Dylan do did a drawing of like a hieroglyph.

And And by the way, these were told to me they were classified. Why would you classify a symbol? What the [ __ ] What the [ __ ] So, I imagine the symbol is somehow associated physically on the pyramid. That's trippy. Yeah, bro. Well, cuz in my mind, when you said pyramid, I started tripping out because I'm thinking about the pyramids all over, you know, disparate civilizations from

at least we know it's tubular, uh 20 m eight of these things with coils wrapping around them that go kilometer deep, tens of meters down below the I've hosted a debate on my show. I don't know for sure if it's real, but it does seem like he found some anomaly under there. And there is something under >> Yeah, I looked at the Italian sub, too. I mean, there's something under there. >> Seems like there's something under >> Didn't Joe talk about some Tic Tac shape metallic object they also found? Is that

>> That's in the labyrinth that Herodotus and Pliny the Elder and Ben Van Kerkwijk is now sort of reporting on. Good beer, Pliny the Elder. Uh Pliny the Elder. We had to get him in somehow, Pliny. >> But um yeah, and so I know less about that, but Egypt's so weird cuz it seems like there's like an underground city. Like even the most conventional archaeologists, I think, would say that there's so much going on underneath all of these kind of topological structures. Even you know, the Sphinx, there

definitely are shafts below that. Even Zahi Hawass, who's like the embodiment of like, you know, gatekeeping in the region, former you know, minister of culture, will admit that there's a shaft below the Sphinx. And for whatever reason, it's all like locked down. And I don't know, if you're Egypt, you've got to be thinking, what's the number one GDP boosting thing we can do? Dig. Figure out what's under there. And you you you you find some new exciting, you know, discovery that's like for all Everyone's going to visit and be excited and celebrate.

>> the disclosure president. Wouldn't it be great? I mean, President Trump has forced this mandate and is following through so far. Look, whoever does this first is going to be hero for the rest of their life. Hero for eternity. Um but but you're talking about something outside of my scope of knowledge um and ability. Like I I have heard of all these things, but let's to bring it to >> So, see, but maybe it's the UFO power source. Is this this pyramid there's some maybe there's something about the pyramid shape.

in that. >> Okay, so now when you talk about tubulin brain structure collapsing the wave form of consciousness, I am lost on what those words represent in functional reality. However, sounds [ __ ] cool. Um I don't know about the whole psionics >> Yeah, what do you think what do you think of Do you think that's real or >> Yeah, just top level um thing. >> Like the Skywatchers stuff. Do you think any of that >> I'm not >> Like the Greer pushes this stuff and >> yeah, so two things.

>> One, when I'm talking about a pyramid power source in a class in a classified >> alleged drawing from Dylan again. He didn't tell me. >> And he still says I can't confirm or deny, but I'd love to have the authority. The symbol hi- hiro- I think was the word was used to me and George hieroglyphic I think on the thing. We're talking about something that you could put in other stuff, you know? So, if we're talking about a power

I'm imagining that's how we would retrofit things. But, I'm not sure on that. Like, let me report back to you. Just the multitude of sources that we've got, it's all aiming towards this idea that there's different parts of technology that are held by different groups. And that's why DOJ is like saying Remember, I mean, there was a public thing that we were like trying to find out. It's a public thing that Burlison Rep Burlison was going to places for different

hardware. Um so, I'm not speaking out of school. What what I'm trying to to say is there's certain different types of hardware that I understand to be held in different places. So, I'm not talking about big pyramids. I'm talking about something that appears to maybe movable as a power source. Now, you just went somewhere else. I want to catch you back on where you left off, but I wanted to qualify that. >> No, yeah. >> What was the last >> The last thing I was saying is do you think this idea of psychic assets is that real?

what people don't know is that a homeless guy came up to me in 2013 and said, "Look up." >> What? [sighs] And I looked up. And I saw like a globe. Like, just a I don't know, you know, balloon with the you know. So, then I started I think it was 2013. No, no, I'm sorry. That that's No, that was in 2004

So, this homeless guy says, "Look up." Um I'm looking up. It's a little bit more than that. Uh what what happened was I got a message on a YouTube video that I posted cuz I saw this thing in the sky and I didn't know what it was. I filmed it. It's called the I called it the Silver Surfer. And I um just it it looked like these zigzaggy things. Do you know this part of Oh, this is cool. You got to hear this. Okay, so, zigzaggy things. And I pull out my phone, I'm filming. I'm walking

in Santa Monica with my now wife, right? And we had a had a different pup, Lucky, three legs. I filmed this [ __ ] in the sky, post it onto YouTube. Next thing I know, Bill Nye the Science Guy is saying, "Oh, I don't know. Um he probably um brine shrimp onto the film." >> It could be sea monkeys, which are brine shrimp, shot in the right light and superimposed

on the blue sky with the shaky thing. >> I immediately go on Google. I look up what brine shrimp is. It's sea monkeys. And I was like, I was [ __ ] pissed. So, I like I thought people on TV that were science people had like scientific method. I don't even know how to superimpose nothing on an iPhone footage. At the time, I was like just barely >> That's That's whack of Bill Nye, man. >> Yeah, it What was the first year of the >> Uh 2008, I think. 2008 or 9. >> have been 2008. So, we'll look You know >> But I think of Bill Nye, I'm like that's was such a bummer cuz he you know he's like this Mr. Rogers character of

>> Okay, but I'm just I'm obsessed with >> accusing you of shrimp brine. >> Yeah, it gets better. Yeah. I'm super obsessed with getting the right date so you can look up the video yourself. That's how you know the date. >> Yeah, yeah. Oh, so maybe it was a little later. That's what I was thinking. >> in the head for a living. I I I literally when it comes to dates, I have to keep all i- in a phone and I use photos. So, if you guys look up Silver Surfer, it's probably one of the first videos on my YouTube, it's probably there. Um what happens is he goes on the news. I get pissed off cuz I didn't know about

news. What are you doing, right? So, I call the news station. I say, "Wait a second, I didn't superimpose anything." And they just dismissed me, right? I'm like, "The fuck?" But they did this like story about it. So, I went to deep dive investigation on my UFO sighting. I mean, I went into like forums and like Facebook and like what was it? It was called like you know all this stuff um MySpace and I found all these people that had also filmed it. I got six angles of this [ __ ] right? So, I went like crazy, bro. I was like, "No one's going to tell me,

you know, that I superposed Brian >> And I literally >> weird accusation. >> Bro, I literally Yeah, yeah. You don't know. I mean, I'm a nice guy. Um, I >> He's probably a science guy as well. >> And I don't know you. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. >> That's all good. He's a nice guy. So, then >> I just like So, then what Here's the deal, man. I get six angles of this >> So, I can then figure out where it was. I figured it out. There's a bunch of people online. It's a funny story I'll tell you later about online who was

there, but figured it out. And I got the footage from the helmet cam of the Red Bull skydiving team with Iridium flares that look like the Silver Surfer. So, I debunked my first UFO case in life. So, that's how I I like finally realized like, you know, you got to [ __ ] uh, make sure and talk about something. I didn't never said it was a UFO. I just asked the question. >> Well, well, well, even then it was a UFO. It was an unidentified flying >> Right. But, I solved it and I realized

you can solve it. And I remember writing in to like some UFO thing goes, "Hey guys, guys, I have a solved UFO case." They were so not interested in a solved UFO case. >> It's a problem with, uh, you know, a lot of the reporting in this space. >> They don't want the debunks. But, that was kind of like a funny thing. So, um, where I realized that people were disingenuous and that they were just saying [ __ ] and that they're not authority, you know, on stuff and they're not even scientists sometimes. >> Cuz you also, I mean, there's so many layers to that story because it it does

eventually get debunked by you more accurately, but there's like a fake debunk as well. And so, you want the right debunk, you don't want But, then you also want the community to say that the debunks are important and they didn't care about like the ultimate debunk that was right. >> debunk. I would say um like you don't to debunking means you're you're you already have an idea and you're you have to fit it into that idea. In my >> Yeah, or it means you were presenting it for sure as not human. You weren't just saying what is this? What is

>> Analysis is important, right? Analysis. You need to analyze everything. Some of the UFO videos that are going to come out from the government had deep deep deep analysis like instantaneous acceleration. That is what you're seeing in that video. They did not want that video out. >> Yeah. But even then, do you think that there are possible ways to poke holes in it and that there there might be >> Oh, yeah. Dude, and look one day, you >> Like what like if it were massless? >> If I get more I don't What is massless? >> Like if it didn't if it was some sort of, you know, looked real like it had mass but it was

a hologram or something. >> Bro, it got a weapons grade lock on it and by the way How do I say this? So like cuz you can technically look like you're breaking Newton's third Okay, so you got so you got so the the debunk not the debunk but the plausible >> And I'm not saying I believe >> No, no, no. I look it look new information, I'm going to absorb it. But we learned this the hard way life did, you know, people did in a cool way. So yes, sure Jesse

maybe that's not a UFO, you know, spacecraft that is instantaneous if you give me information you should give it to the government first of all cuz they disagree. But you know, cuz they have they have eyes on all the assets. >> I'm pretty sure they know that as a >> So here is my point. That was a deep dive analysis that came out, right? Because George and I obtained and released it. Our government hasn't released it. I'm sure there's a pilot a mission report on that. I want that. The world should have that. So whatever Yeah, and at some point you do your best

you put something out and then maybe it's not what you were told or what the government thought. and the reason I'm saying this is because in these they call them tranches of releases, there's going to be good information and bad information and that's that's why we want it out. So people really bright minds the internet can solve [ __ ] >> Yeah, that's why I struggle with video myself because I'm like I'm not a VFX guy. I don't know. So I see some of these videos and I'm like they look compelling to me but like you could probably give me some [ __ ] and I would probably think you know

maybe that looks compelling to you. So I just try to like not even weigh it you >> argue why it's tip of the spear. Okay. Right now, now this should change. This should change but right now it's tip of the spear cuz man if you were with me 15 years ago you one video from the military are you kidding me you go crazy You're going to get bad stuff inside these UFO drops from the government not cuz they're trying to trick you but because certain products have been highly evaluated and there's multi-sensor platforms some they can't show you like with the 2019

100 UAP swarms some were pyramid in shape some were some were look there are other platforms. So when you have multi-platform multi-sensor some of that's going to be really good and well thought out and the government should be giving that up to you but some of it's going to be like this look cool that pilot says that was wild crazy and that's the pilot report. But here's how we learned the hard way in a good way. Those 46 videos that's the tip of the spear just to begin the process. The last the first tranche of stuff that

they put out. George Knapp and I had reported on something called the Baghdad Phantom. We released seven images which were still shots cuz obviously people are leaking [ __ ] So I don't even we we make it in a way so we could never even know sometimes but we validate everything but we put it out we told people here you go. It's cold. It's running through here and you're like cool video dude, right? And all of a sudden it was wasn't a video, we just stitched together the But the process worked. They knew

that people knew about that case, so guess what was in that first tranche was the actual video of the Baghdad Phantom. That felt good to me and George cuz we're like, look, we're pushing transparency, but what people missed if you look and read through all the documents like a psychopath, there is a mission report of that collection. Mhm. So, that's before it gets into the disinformation arms of the old arrow because now everything's going to be thumbs up from what I understand. >> Maybe. No, I'm just I'm going like this, but we're going to hold them accountable and they know that we can. They know

exactly how we can. >> So, one of those ways is look at the mission report from the Baghdad Phantom. That was supposed to be declassified in >> Just the mission report. >> Well, that's cool that that came out. >> because what it does >> the mission report say? >> Uh look at what the pilot said. >> What what what did it say? >> It's very simple. It It just It just shows the process is working before it gets like twisted by um intel agencies you know, like arrow has been acting like one in the past give them maybe

future props. Um so so that is what I'm saying is you learn that when you put something out, if the pilot report was like, oh no, we knew what this was, then I would know that wasn't a UAP. When they label it UAP, when they talk about how it went by them super fast and they tried to keep the camera on it, right? And and they they got as much footage as they could. It reinforces what I said, Central Command has a bottleneck to UAP information before it gets to the people who legally it's supposed to get to, who want the information even arrow. So, we

intel agency or something or a modern Project Blue Book kind of trying to dismiss, you know, many UFO cases. Uh it seemed to be more nefarious than that. It seemed like maybe it was acting as like kind of a fly trap. Like it was uh getting leads on the cases that I'm most familiar with are some of these nuclear cases. >> AARO, the people that took the testimony from these veterans did not record them. They were told the couple of the veterans were told, "Well, we're taking notes." Well, if you're conducting a serious investigation, you

you want to tape record every word, every grunt, every syllable and they did not record any of the interviews uh according to the veterans. >> And they wouldn't take notes, but they would maybe take high-level notes about where, you know, certain evidence would lie and then they might even go and try to find that evidence and destroy it in certain cases. It just seemed like a total limited hangout with ties to UFO legacy program. Like Like the definition of bad actor agency is my sort of rough

assessment. But what's what's your >> Uh for you know, for for people who say I don't answer questions directly, here's a direct answer. You are 100% correct. It is exactly my assessment and I can back it up and there are a number of way in a court of law. AARO was acting as a counterintelligence against the American public to siphon out what people knew and then to be able to clamp down on

It was a honey trap. It uh was a disinformation campaign. Um Dr. James Lacatski even said that on our podcast, mine and George's. Um uh you know, he he says, "Well, they're sure acting like it, aren't they?" or something like that. Uh this is a known thing. Now, I have direct specific knowledge and evidence of exactly how that mechanism worked, recorded, documented. >> Oh, yeah, bro. >> So, for example, if somebody Well, there's a lot of good people that work

at AARO, by the way. Shout-out to the good people. I do know some good people that work at AARO. But it under Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, all the way up from the NASA people that are sources of mine, who have told me what what it's like in the room with him, what he tried to do, the direct harassment of witnesses. Now, and I'm not talking about dismissal. I'm talking about harassment, threats. And I'm not I'm not sure how to go far to go right now, but I imagine it's recorded.

So, recorded. So, in the court of law, I could prove that AARO was intimidating and harassing >> It's wild. >> Yeah, man. So, [ __ ] them. So, in that in that old version, now I hear that um Dr. Kirkpatrick Everybody I know that knows him professionally before he was in that >> My job is to have sources everywhere, >> yeah. What do they say about

>> that he's a great guy. >> Okay, I've heard similar. >> an honest guy. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Now, he is in Project Blue Box. It's the modern version, much more sophisticated. The battlefield is is cyber. The battlefield is social media. It's PR. Notice what he asked for when he went up, the last thing with Gillibrand. All he asked for wasn't more money. He asked for public trust. Because he realized coming into that job, poor guy, after it was just kind of [ __ ] on by Kirkpatrick and [ __ ] on by Tim Phillips,

right? Coming after whistleblowers publicly on like LinkedIn when Are you kidding me? Is that in your job description? Project Blue Box, dude. It is worse than Project Blue Book. A book you can open. A box, how do you get in? And it and it's it's so bad It's so bad because it's you can literally tie its inception to legacy programs. So, Kirk Patrick at SAIC. If you study UFO legacy programs, SAIC is all over that stuff. Ronald Moultrie, who is office of you know,

So, it's it's people where you don't have Glenn Greenwald is on the board of AARO. And Glenn Glenn Greenwald, who's director of science and technology of the CIA, who's blocking UFO transfer between Lockheed and Bigelow, which we just discussed with Lacatski. So, you have three people who like the guy that George Knapp said his name with his hand raised. >> That's right. >> Congress, Glenn Greenwald, blocking the transfer of a non-human intelligence >> a name for you. >> Go ahead. >> Glenn Greenwald. >> So, those are the three people who are

supposed to be helping we, the American public, make sense of UFOs. >> Congressionally mandated. >> It's crazy. Dude, bro, I'm so glad you you're tracking of all this because the average person is not and and not everybody can track all that. So, like putting that out in a digestible way, explaining that to people that there is a generational pattern of relationship, just like you would have in any organization or agency

>> course. You know, the things that George and I can't say, you know. Um look, man. There is a I wish it was organized. There are groups of people holding information back from me for no good [ __ ] reason. And um the idea is how do we get it out? We can't take it. >> But Mitchell talked about some sort of cabal, some sort of closely knit. >> Yes, he did, but but not that he knew >> And I didn't dodge your Satex question, we should get back to that for your audience, right?

But um yeah, Dr. Mitchell talked about how, cuz look, sixth man to walk on the moon, people want to talk who they born in Roswell, New Mexico, bro, right? >> He, behind the scenes, um, and in front of the scenes, tried to be an advocate for truth and transparency on this cuz he knew it was true. The whole enchilada. >> It's so interesting to me the dynamic this whole topic is you have people like Edgar Mitchell, you have Wernher von Braun at the end of his life talking to Carolyn Ross and his his

>> text me sometime. >> Oh, amazing. >> Yeah, she's cool. >> And she's talking about some planned alien invasion. And then you I feel like you have modern equivalents of them where it's like guys who are really well respected in their agencies or you know, with their past credentials, people like Likatski or Hal Puthoff. But those got Everybody I just mentioned considers themselves an outsider. >> And that's interesting about this whole topic. Because you have guys who are have very high security clearances who

can, you know, walk into all these places like no questions asked. >> Bigot list. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, there's bigot list. >> You you have to so >> What do you what do you yeah? >> It doesn't matter your clearance. It's need-to-know. It's very simple. >> They're a bigot list. That's what >> Um, but there's a cabal that's deeper than Wernher von Braun. Like he got to be part of the cabal. >> not he's on the inside of what he needed to know, like how Bob was on power and propulsion, you know, with Project

Um, but worse. You you you have >> that is planning how to do this right. I don't think so cuz everything's been provoked and forced, but uh, yes. All these people you know that you would imagine, like Hal Puthoff, maybe he also could just can't tell you certain things. Cuz I know for a fact >> like, you know, >> I know there's a lot he probably can't say. somebody you know and you might know this, but somebody

you know worked on a laser weapon system from a downed Russian NH I spaceship. So, when you know have they told you that? >> You're just saying that cuz you're on >> I really don't know who you're talking >> Okay. So, somebody you know >> I'm extremely curious. >> Somebody you know >> worked on the reverse engineering >> of a laser weapon system >> from a downed Russian asset. This is NHI

>> Last name start with D? >> Uh we're not playing that game with the >> I'm I'm trying [clears throat] to get to >> one person who said something along those lines in a document. >> an investigative bro. Okay, here's the deal. What I'm saying to you is that even if they wanted to >> they can't tell you how much they know. Now, are they in this cabal planning [ __ ] Oh, [ __ ] no. Who those people are? Highest highest up on the food chain. All I found is the cabal people who want you not to know, not the people that do know. Did you really hear what I just said because that's important. I I found

anybody from that national defense will never Do you think he sits back and listens to Blink 182? Do you Do you that guy honestly in his free time do you think he had been to a >> I don't know. >> Why is he talking to Tom, right? Um love Tom did some amazing stuff, you know, he pushed this forward. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Good for Tom. So, I I really >> I'm I'm a huge fan of his. I think he's >> His music too. Yes, I don't >> And and and as a person and as a person, I think he's >> No, dude. >> I think he gets a lot he gets a bad rap

sometimes and I think he did Vigilante like really helped get a lot you know, shake the tree down and get a lot of >> Let's make this clear. >> Tom DeLonge is yes, he is a rock star, but that's a tiny little piece of who he is. He is like you, he is curious, he is fascinated. He called me back in the day before he was ever in this >> genuinely fascinated. >> Genuinely. He used to read all the books with the blink thing and he he George is always making me get on calls with people and I don't know who they are. He just really wants you to talk to him. The I remember this call I was driving home from Vegas from uh right after I

kind of got to know um some somebody else, but I'm driving back and Tom calls me. He's not like in the UFO world in any way at this time and he's just talking to me. He knew so much about the UFO thing. So, people put him in as like the oh, this rock star and blah blah blah. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying they wouldn't talk to him because he's a rock star. Dude, he trained with George Knapp on like how to make his approach, what the pitches how to use his face and his fame to get in there, you know, he got into like a lucky little soirée. Tom [ __ ] did it,

dude. He pushed in, he got through, he went for it. He became proactive instead of being a consumer. He was a consumer for years like all of us reading books. He did that, man, and he gets a bad rap because people jealous. They weren't in that room with Tom or they weren't in this with Tom. Dude, he's a good dude and he's super knowledgeable on the UAP thing. Um but when I said it was an op, I this is important to me. Sure. The distinction of that. So, George is helping to sharpen the pitch of Tom and hooking him up with

some people, people don't know about you got a bad rap, you've to look like the good guys, cuz you are good guys. You were just protecting America, but now it's gone too far. It was something like that was part of it. >> a WikiLeaks email, yeah. >> Oh, okay, yeah. So, so okay, so wow. So, what happens then is you got this boomer. Now, do you think

when I say it's part of an op, I'm not saying it's bad. I'll explain the op. But do you think someone like that charged with protecting our national security, which by the way, he's [ __ ] missing right now? >> I know. >> So, that's interesting because if that was like Russia or China and they got him alive somewhere, what does he know that they want? Not UFO related? >> it's some rogue element of the program? >> Well, so that would be really sad. >> And that would be really [ __ ] I have trouble believing it's an

>> I'm just saying all options on the table cuz we don't know. >> But what's the op? So, a guy like that >> he ain't going to talk to Tom DeLonge. He doesn't listen to his music. He's a boomer. And he and he has this oath like Likachev. You think Likachev would be calling up rock stars talking No, no, no. So, when I say op, it's not a bad thing. That was an operation, meaning there were people trying to get [ __ ] out. Now, not all of it is true. And don't be one of those people that believes everything just cuz someone gives you one good piece of information. So, if you look at

that and if I look at history, here's what I would think. Here's my putting on a little um theoretical hat. I'm thinking that Hillary Clinton thought that she was going to be And I think that certain people knew that the information was dying and that we needed bright minds just a little bit. We just need a little bit of knowledge out there. Or maybe she thought she'd be disclosure president because her husband really tried until they crushed down Webster Hubble after

look back at your history. Clinton tried. Maybe she could be the disclosure president. Okay, how do we pave the way? You do an op, right? Mhm. You Not Not negative like actual information authorized from the White House, people in the White House. Now, you can start seeding because when come time cuz I'm going to win, she thought. Everybody thought. Mhm. Everybody thought. There was no way this guy Donald J. Trump could become president. Remember that? >> Oh, yeah. >> People thought that, right? Or I'm not a

political person, but I remember people saying that. >> No, it was he was a complete sleeper. >> no way. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Okay, that's what they're telling me. Yeah. So, basically this guy, McCaslin, one of many that Tom was um talking to, obviously. WikiLeaks, you >> Okay. So, then what happens? Shocker, she's not president. So, what happens to everybody that was part of What happens to everybody that was prepping the battlefield

for disclosure, which we all want, as long as it's true what they tell us, and not a fear right? So, if it's truth, mhm. What do they do? What do all these people do now that that didn't work? >> You got to You got to pivot. You got to change. And we're And we're starting to see it with We've seen that if you've been paying attention. Who are these people? Good people, bad people? Mhm. What do they want? >> I think good people. >> Well, there was definitely a a threat narrative that came out of, you know,

elements of of that group. That was very It was very like, you know, they're prepping the battle space. You know, they're they're they're doing recon. They're looking at us. And I've always had an issue with that narrative in particular. Yeah. I think it's sort of I think anyone that says they're only good or they're only bad." is so ridiculous. >> Yes, I >> It's absolutely. Yeah. And can you trust them? So, if like a ET comes to you and says, "I come in peace. You're going to destroy the world with your technology. You know,

spread the word that we're >> You can't take anything at face value in either direction. >> Like with that with with any human, the words don't matter. >> That's right. >> It's the action. >> And if somebody speaks in absolutes about intent on either side, I don't trust them. I'm like, "Cuz you're an individual." And every individual has different intent. And why would it be >> But we can organize. So, let's look at the fact. The fact is they've turned on nukes, they've turned off nukes. They didn't stop Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They've constantly been watching. They call them the watchers, right? They've

been watching for what seems like the beginning of recorded human history, whoever they are. Is it one group? Is it two groups? >> actions or >> Who freaking knows? Are they Are they angry at each other? Are we a commodity? Are they protecting us? Fact is, they haven't like neutralized everybody's brain where you're walking around like a robot, right? So, that we know of. >> That we know of, yeah. Yeah. >> That we know of. So, I know I know a few >> robots, but >> So, the threat narrative, let me hit that on the head with you. Oh, me, too. I think it's [ __ ] ridiculous. Because if you talk to

this out of this patient. >> This was just last week. >> get to patient 17 threat narrative. This is for you. I'm talking to you. I don't give a [ __ ] about this. I agree with you. Here's the thing. Why? Why do they have that narrative? We don't look at them like bad folks. Like why? >> I think it's probably some sort of armaments build up in space and you know things of that nature. >> thinker than me. All I'm thinking is it's their [ __ ] job. >> Sure. Yeah, yeah. When when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. >> That's it. >> So all these people are coming from a

military, intelligence, national defense point standpoint. They have to think about it. It's in their blood to think about it. >> But I would I would just say one I would add one thing to what you just said, which is I agree with that and then it's like why now as well. So like there's some sort of ramp up in the threat >> Well, there's a >> It seemed like around that time and so maybe it's because we're in a new nuclear multipolar world, but like the the the nuclear thing had been happening since the you know 50s, 60s, 70s, the

tampering with the nukes and stuff. So the the the the going public about this could be a threat seemed to start at that time. I don't know why. >> Okay, but so I'm that is fact. >> So but let's play that out. Is that um there is a threat in their minds that >> Yeah, it could be it could be genuine on their they they could really believe it. >> it. I don't feel like they're trying to make um humanity scared of it. Like on the big scale, that's not the big

message I'm getting from all of this movement. It It for me it's more of curiosity. Let's say they did that. Let's say that there it's an operation to control people. That's ultimately what you're saying, is that I think. You correct me if I'm wrong. >> No, I'm not even going that far. I think it's possible. >> Anything is possible. >> Anything is possible and I What's that? >> With this, yeah. >> With this. And I think it's a smoke screen. I think it's a Rorschach test and I think it could get used for blue beam style stuff. It could, you know, religious awakening. It could get used

to clamp down and then it could be extremely libertarian and subversive of any kind of institutional authority structures. And so it has this infinite superposition of possibilities attached to it. And I do think people are trying to manage the narrative. I think they're trying to manage the narrative and shape the narrative less than some of the people I meet on like you know, Reddit forums or whatever think they are. Like you meet these people and they're like just earnestly into it. And maybe they've been

socialized in certain spheres to believe certain things and that shapes their belief in implicit ways. But they're less sort of, you know, bad actors I think than some of the people on the internet think. >> That's for [ __ ] sure. But yeah, you know, look, I mean we just listed a bunch of bad actors, but it's it's like there are bad actors, but it's it's not it's not everyone. >> And it's I find it interesting that there's there's there's a certain type of person who's it's like they're so they're real they're angry. And they're railing against the control system

around UFOs. Like it's like this parapsychological control system around this whole topic. And I I my second order thought is always if if you're expending all your time so angry at this, you're probably part of the control system. You're probably falling prey to it. >> Well, I not only falling prey, but you are allowed to run psychological campaigns of disinformation on the American public as Americans that is legal, that is law. You're allowed to do that that not operate >> That's what that from my understanding

like Google that [ __ ] Look it up. But from the Obama era, the idea of protective programs and being able to seed American news. Look, we've been doing it anyway. >> That's interesting. Did it start it became legalized somehow under Obama? >> smarter people, legal scholars that I've I I I don't know if that is accurate, so I'm not a legal scholar. That's what I'm >> makes me that makes me wonder about some of the UFO-related narratives that popped up around that time as maybe cuz maybe it was on the back somewhat of,

you know, we'll fact-check be Obama law change or whatever. But >> So, fact-check me on that. That is my >> propaganda, the idea, right, that we're allowed to deceive the American public for protect programs, right? Like that is 100% legal. And now the new terrain is all digital because that is the way that we consume information. So, the real battlefield is the battlefield of of freedom of thought, and that occurs on social media, in news, um in all

media that is consumed, and they've gotten very, very savvy to the point where you if you I mean, so easy. Like if you get a AI to look at the repeated words and the timing in which people post and when they created their accounts. Dude, I've got a whole list of people everybody says I should block because it's an organized attempt to take a single post I I had to say and then, you know, diminish it and make >> me less credible. So, that that that world exists. >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's called shaping the emerging UAP

narrative, and why I've said that now for the 400th time on camera is because I was exposed to a CIA document that gave the mandate. The mandate was to shape the emerging UAP narrative, which I thought was so interesting. Not control, not stop, shape it. >> That's why >> As if they know this narrative is emerging. So, how do we shape it? And I'll tell you there is a news source >> Was there anything specific about how they were shaping it in what direction >> So, the documents that I was >> I am familiar with

>> are CIA documents. >> I reported those to FBI with George it is illegal. What what they started saying in it is Commander Fravor misidentified his instrumentation. And I was thinking, yes, picked up on radar, [ __ ] How the hell do He saw it with his eye. What are you talking about? There were five other sets of eyes up there. So, I started thinking about as I'm exposed to this, like, is this document real? First of

I was just exposed to it. I don't know how better to say it here legally. I was exposed to it. Never had possession of it. Don't have it. Was exposed to it. How I validated that document was through DOJ. So, this document was talking about shaping the emerging UAP narrative. I will tell you this. There is a news publication that popped up right around the Lazar movie coming out era. Mhm. And I saw them grasp the

ground and the terrain. That is a CIA stood up say, oh, is this a real This is like This is like an outlet that exists. online publication. And you know the name and it's like a thing. So, can you Can you say or do you what the name I'll talk I'll talk to you in person about it, but like I I think I I think we want the world to to think Yeah. and question Yeah. and then review. I gave you enough information

now to know. Yeah. That is a CIA stood up media outlet. Okay, so what are the clues? It was popped up around the Lazar around the Lazar time. Yeah, one of the best um Yeah, around the Lazar time. I'll get Maybe I'll I'll text you more specific. We'll put some images in and just [ __ ] blast them out. But there's a bunch of people that work for it that are good people. They have no [ __ ] idea. They're literally just getting a job. But you'd have to kind of operate this from overseas is another hint, right? Um on this publication. And are

they UFO specific or no? Well, so that's what's funny is um yes and no. Like, there's other really good articles and writers and there's like great valid stories. But, when you need something seeded into the media as CIA it's great to have a bunch of people working for this and then any story that comes down from the king, you put in. And you know exactly which writers to talk you know to talk to to seed them some very special information that is breaking news. It's so classic textbook

CIA. We go back to you know even um I heard that a lot of the journalists, you know, were on payroll. We we've got their names now and what they were paid and all this stuff. All the way down to people you really trusted back in the '60s. >> Right? No, I think I think this is Operation Mockingbird and that kind of thing. right? So, >> Is this I think I might know what publication you're talking about. >> they can't buy you >> if they can't seduce, I'll use that word like seduction, whatever that means like you know something alluring, if they

don't have a blackmail on you, and then they try and can't get you to bite on that blackmail, then they're kind of running out of options. So, what can they do? They can start to diminish your public profile. >> And they can threaten you. >> And that's the way you control somebody. Now, they're not trying to stop people who have loud voices because you're useful. These are intelligence operations, right? You're they're you're

useful to them if they can get one of those five things I just mentioned to shape what you're saying. And that's what's so dangerous. I mean, you got to be squeaky clean, watch your back, you got to document everything. When Chuck McCollum says in my movie not my movie but Michael Lulkowski's movie, I gave him 20 years of footage. He made it. And to my chagrin, if that's the right word, like I had to ask my whole family, like is it okay? Can I show the dog? You know, he wants to do this. It should be protection. He's saying it's protection. Um

So, what what My point is, what are they what are they doing by shaping the narrative that's already emerging? Is it sinister? Is it what Jesse Michael said right now? Is it to create a level of control and threat so everybody goes, "Oh God, big daddy government, you know, protect me because there's something coming, you know, like a big craft really slowly to Earth. Oh my God, so scary." Or is it to acclimate you for something that they know is going to occur. That

that's the other possibility. And I hear mutterings of that all the night all the time of like, you know, certain dates and you know, and I I I I almost like the the um Book of Matthew of like, you know, only God knows the the the day or whatever on the apocalypse. That applies to and that has its own stigma and I shouldn't even say, you know, reference those things in the context of kind of a more scientific conversation. But I think that applies to this, you know, 2026 or seven or or

35. No one knows. Only God know or only some omniscient force knows. >> Or it's complete and utter [ __ ] >> a complete BS. >> And and it's the funny thing is I can call BS like I did on that. I tried to get out ahead of you know, you >> behind the eight ball. I want to be ahead of the eight ball. >> Yeah. And then when I came out and said, "Look, all these intel people, I have taken all of this information, these conversations, all this data. I've basically run it through a way to look for key repeated words. >> And I found that I and very directly,

too, was trying to be utilized to propagate, "Oh, you might be something really special is happening. Like something really special, but I'm just going to tell you. What the [ __ ] Tell everybody if it's really special. It's important, right? So, the manipulation of me, that's why I came out and said, "Look, my fear is that you're going to be told that there is a craft slowly moving to Earth, and it's bullshit." And then, you know, just the world >> I was I was told that, too, and >> You were? >> Yeah, yeah, and I >> I knew it. I >> But, I I always just whenever I get

something like that, I just I just don't like I I'm like, I know what you're dealing. This is passage material. This is a test. It's It's probably some sort of bizarre passage material/can I trust you hybrid or something. And I'm like, either [ __ ] way, I just don't want to like ever mention it again. >> Yes, see, my my fear is that >> And then, if somebody totally independent says something, then I'm like, "Okay, maybe." >> But, you're the reason one of the reasons why I would say that publicly cuz, you know, I knew I'd get [ __ ] for it, and everybody would like, you know,

cut that up and make me seem like a crazy person. I said it out loud. It's because people like you have said to me that you were getting that same [ __ ] So, now all these people speaking loudly are getting the same messaging, and it's like, so we have to defend against that or we become a part of that machine and mechanism. Now, ultimately, end of the day, I don't [ __ ] know, but I highly [ __ ] doubt that that is accurate assessment of what's happening in 20 20 36, whatever. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But, hey, I'd be wrong.

>> Do you think I think there's something so unique, going back to Lazar, there's something so unique about him because he's this uh kind of hapless like normal person engineer. He's not He doesn't have any sort of counter intel background or anything like that. Uh do you think we get another Bob Lazar coming out near term? Cuz I think that's what a lot of people want. I don't think they want the person who saw the thing on the document or that, you know, that that who knew the other guy,

and that person worked directly or you know, I think they want another Lazar. We almost got it. And he's dead. Tell me more. You know about this, >> Okay, so a little example. He was to testify behind closed doors. >> Matthew Sullivan for everybody Um Matthew Sullivan was one of the 40 people that you know, that number is >> loose. Um there's probably more.

>> That that David Grusch brought to the attention of the ICIG. Matthew Sullivan was fact 2 weeks about before he died, I think, going to testify. We call it behind closed doors because you know how many people I've taken in to to speak in DC that you will never see publicly. This is to inform them, taking them in to testify. You're under oath. You're in a skiff. I have facilitated >> Over 10. >> Oh, yeah.

>> So so So the question is this. Matthew Sullivan Now, I didn't know him personally. But I knew he was going to testify. And that is testifying. And that's why people and the FBI are investigating if his death was suspicious. Cuz it ain't adding up. Hold the math. Now, he could have just been PTSD and broken down and scared and But that's not the word on the wash.

So, I don't have any direct knowledge that I can talk about of that case. But I do know the FBI's looking into it and there's a congressional letter that I do mention, if you read between the lines, I didn't know that this could be public I didn't know this was going to be public. He's one of the two people that I'm talking about when I say, you know, mortal crimes. Um we don't know It's it's a suspicious death. And um he was going to testify beyond closed doors. He had direct

direct hands-on with the craft. That would be like Lazar, wouldn't it? So, man, they wanted to stop Lazar. They don't want people that would convince everybody out because now >> Were you in Were you Were you in touch >> Uh it's a really sad story and um I just >> I was kind of trying to figure that out recently. I get a lot of signal >> And they delete a lot. And um

I did get a message from him. And it deleted. And usually I try to be good about keeping those, but it was on a thing. But I never talked with him. >> I I was trying to figure that out cuz my memory, but um you know, I can show you on my phone what happened. >> that's a bummer, man. >> It's a bummer because I was hoping maybe he was reaching out because I could take people from Embryo, scared. Dylan Borland, you see him in the movie. That audio He knows I speak always on speakerphone and by my Nest cameras. He

knows that. So, Dylan Borland, um he knew that I was doing that for our own protection. So, in the movie you hear him really scared. And that's way before we knew that we were going to get him standing hand to God and to country and be able to testify. That road is so hard. It takes me 2 and 1/2 months sometimes for for for national security people to vet some of the witnesses that I want to testify to you. A lot you'll never hear about. You never got to hear Daniel Gockerell. Small story, but I had him on Weaponized After. He saw a a triangle. But these

these badass [ __ ] that worked on the programs, you have to understand they're so locked down. They're not in there because they're trusted. They're in there because they have legacy generational trust. Most of the people in the legacy atmosphere are it's not because just you are trusted. It's cuz your grandfather was trusted, your father was trusted. You got kids who are going to be trusted in that same intelligence circles. So, they're so tightly packed in there um to get somebody to break out of that cage

is dangerous for a lot of reasons. Cuz why would you do that? You have to think this is so critically important. Otherwise, keep your head down to your work. You're on one of the coolest projects on planet Earth, Shh, do you understand what I'm saying? >> Yeah, that's crazy that maybe he was taken out. >> I I don't know, bro. >> The timing's weird. The timing's weird but that says a lot about the timing. >> But I yeah, let the DOJ do their job. Damn, but like you feel pretty confident

that he was working directly on the >> To the best of my not Do I feel very confident? Absolutely. Do I have all the information? No, but I think people that have more information than me and knew him should speak to you, not me. Answers about him. Is there going to be somebody? Man, it shouldn't be on Bob Lazar. Our government should come forward and this is the problem. The first release is bunch of videos, bunch of documents. Wait a second. Didn't David Grusch raise his hand and say that we have been generationally exploiting non-human

technology hand to God and to country and say that we have these programs? And didn't he say that we have alien bodies? By a lot, didn't he say that? Oh, [ __ ] Where was that in the releases? >> the the the IC Inspector General said this is urgent and credible. >> But now we got a real issue. Huh, the ICIG is the police of the intelligence

The the the question being this. Hmm. Who's the real watchdog here? Can we trust them? >> Well, it doesn't seem like they've acted on Grusch's, you know, report that he handed in in 2022, 4 years ago. So, man, I don't know. >> You know? I hear there's a guy, and I hear he's a really good guy, and I hear that he is the current ICIG. I hear that his name is Christopher Fox. And I hear that if someone like him,

being active ICIG, wanted to, and didn't have to recuse himself for some reason, that there's actually four people, cuz I've talked with Chuck, who was the first ICIG in American history. So, he, you know, pretty much, I'm pretty sure he knows the job. I think if they wanted to, that they could rapidly come to conclusion on that ICIG report. I think the ICIG I think that they also have the video footage of Dylan Borland's testimony.

So, I think that this could be very rapidly sorted out if people wanted to. You feel what I'm saying? >> And I also think, the one thing I didn't tell you, cuz we got into a different space, is the fourth thing that I heard directly from ODNI, is that Dylan Borland drew a fourth of a sensor system. Oh, but that's really classified because it's not UFO related at all. Now, wait a

second. They were asking me, "Did he draw that for me?" [ __ ] he drew me a triangle on camera. Didn't draw nothing else. Here's what I know as Dylan Borland wouldn't even know what the [ __ ] they're talking about, or how to How do you draw a sensor system, Jesse? You're a smart guy. You're basically a [ __ ] scientist. A- How do you draw a sensor system? So, they lied to me. Why did they lie to me? They lied to me to get Dylan Borland on treason,

which carries a life sentence or death penalty. They lied to me about Matthew Brown saying he's a Jew-hating racist. >> That's so crazy. >> Oh, when I told him he was at a Jewish he was like, "What?" By the way, he's part Jewish. >> Let's Let's back up and tell people who who is Matthew Brown. I just want you to know that ODNI ran an operation for 9 months. Not all of them are bad people. Actually, all of them are good people, but some of them are doing a job. What

their mission was? Their mission, if I had to assess, it's just my opinion, was to co-opt me and George to go against whistleblowers and to fabricate evidence, fabricate evidence against an American hero, a whistleblower, named Dylan Borland, to evidence against Matthew Brown, to pressure everybody into a corner, but to control Congress's ability

and ambition to continue what they're having hearings. I could probably prove that. Actually, I could prove that in the court of law. wow, [ __ ] we got that going on. Then, put on top of that, did you see a few days ago that the head of the DIG, the Directors Initiative Group, which was the part of ODNI that came to me and to George first, and we provided them a

ton of whistleblowers and people just saying, "Hey, telling the whistleblowers, we don't know if we can trust them, but do your best, right?" And they did it. Most of them talked with them. I think very smartly David Grusch didn't. I don't think I am confident Tulsi Gabbard was completely unaware that the CIA was running an operation through ODNI on journalists, on whistleblowers who were bringing in

saying they have ultimate authority to protect you. You can tell them anything. Right? But wink wink to the whistleblowers like really careful throw them some underhanded pitches first to make sure they they're not running something. Here's what we find out. A few days ago, a CIA agent goes in front of Congress and he says, "I ran the DIG." He got emotional in it. He's like the CIA, he said, "I ran the DIG, the director's initiative under Tulsi, and I don't think she was aware that she had these

rogue elements, we know like we're talking about little cabals from the CIA by the way, running this op on us." And he says, he found out that when he was running the anomalous cover-up and the UAP initiative of the

They found out the CIA was spying on the whistleblowers. That means everybody that we brought in, their computers, their cell phones, everything. He's self-admitting. He's self-admitting. CIA's response was, "He wasn't authorized to speak to you on Twitter." You're like, "What the [ __ ] You're not denying those claims. That is illegal." He said that's illegal. He got emotional in it. I don't know this guy, John. John something the third. I don't know him. Oh boy, we should have a talk. Because

>> Bro, that's just >> And that's just ridiculous. Let's get to the next >> You have the uh agency that's supposed to oversee all other intelligence agencies being red teamed by what's supposed to be a subordinate agency in the CIA. That's a pretty wild >> I think that's why people like you cuz you just took a very complex thing that I'm very emotional about cuz they tried to hurt people I care about and use me to do it. And you just made it simpsified. >> I tried.

>> Thank you. Yeah. Okay, who's Matt Brown? >> While they are observing the Russian vessels, a large black triangle materializes or decloaks or something. The point is is it did not move. It appeared above the directly above the ships, probably no more than 200 m. >> Matt Brown, courageous as [ __ ] I mean just goosebump courageous as [ __ ] Matt Absolutely 100% worthy of your trust.

his dad, his mom, uh I think two of his talked with his wife, um he's got cats. You know, he's had to >> Seems like a kind of a gentle soul. >> He he's he's he's not as fragile as people think. >> He cuz you know, he'll tremble when he gets um angry like or scared or nervous and I'd be nervous as [ __ ] too. Um I snuck him in, you know, to have a secret congressional briefing with three

members who all said yes to me. Um like snuck him in with my camera Um he balls of steel. He's so smart. What an asset to America. Patriot. He's a patriot. Worthy of your trust. I said that. I want to say it again. Um he revealed the macro constellation to the world.

>> He has endured more than I'm comfortable saying here. Um from a personal standpoint. >> at the office of the Secretary of Defense, right? >> State Department. >> He was at the State Department. >> Yeah, that was his main job, but he was at Pentagon before that. >> And he had TS/SCI and and he was doing some like audit or something. How did he run into all of this UFO-related info? >> [ __ ] I mean, I think Matt should talk for himself. So so you notice sometimes people say I don't I am so protective

of people and you know, there's so much that goes into my brain that like I have to be um gentle with because one wrong little word and I expose something they didn't want exposed or about them personally and then they get harassed. >> But but high level he was doing some routine thing and he bumped into documentation of >> tell you this part. on a shared IntelLink server there was something misappropriately

starts going through it. And he's like, "Dude, this is not supposed to be on this server." So, what did a real patriot like Matthew Brown do? First thing, cuz you can everybody can see, he goes to his boss or his boss's boss, and he's like, um you know, "Hey, this was not supposed to be there. I was not supposed to see this. It looks like a working report. and they're like, "Okay, cool." Goes back to his desk or whatever. And I hope I'm saying this right, and Matt, you can speak for yourself, right? And you will

very soon. People are going to find out. he was so nervous by how they reacted to the spillage, they call it, where you see something that you're not supposed to be read into, that he's like, "Dude, they're going to throw me under the bus if I need to tell somebody else." So, he goes and tells somebody else. And their reaction kept being this like "Okay." But like no assurances to him are you doing the right thing.

So, that gets under your skin. You get a little worried, right? I mean, that your whole career is your um is your clearances. If they even put your clearances in purgatory like they did to Dylan for years, they're not saying you don't got it. And these are people trusted by our government. In Dylan's case, really, really trusted, bro. I can't say the agency specifically you worked for, but you could subcontracted for the big ones. Mhm, okay. So, there's Matthew Who you going to call? Batman. Like, you

know, who who you going to call, dude? So, he proactively, being a very thoughtful person, documented everything. Every move, everything documented for self-protection, also cuz he's like, you know, why did why did I get exposed to that? You know, and also I think as a curious guy, he had some time on his hands and probably um kept his eye out for UAP information, right? And here's a guy that like an all-source analyst, I don't think he was, but like

one, you kind of start putting together what they call the mosaic. And and you and you look for what you know to be Then, as a dutiful, patriotic person, when he realized what was going on and how dangerous it was, and that's as far as I'm going to say about that, he can talk. Um cuz not everything's cleared for him yet. He can't like go ask State Department again. very early on.

was able to get that information into the hands of the people that I trusted and that and I do trust still and were in position of power and could assess it. That's how it began with Matthew Brown. That's how it began. He didn't know who to trust at first. He made some mistake we won't get into all of that. But some people are not worthy of your

at all. Journalists don't try to pay people >> That's not a journalist. >> There was something >> Bro, let's not get into it, right? You said you don't want to. >> So, not >> We can if you want, but >> Dude, [laughter] let's talk about things that excite us. >> The one day people will understand >> So, one day people will understand what makes me angry. >> I didn't know anything about >> I know you didn't.

>> possible payment >> That's why you No, [laughter] no. Look, we're not saying specifics that don't make any sense. You You might have just made an assumption. >> I think I made a correct assumption, but we can just move on. >> is going to be so awkward for your audience, but hold on. Jesse and I We We made one agreement going on. >> Is it there's you know, we're we're just going to talk freely, and that we're going to enjoy ourselves and talk about what makes us happy and inspires us and and sparks our curiosities. Basically, what we said last night, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> So, So, I want I want to do that. You know, this is not about >> credit, I did say I like to focus way

more on the truth than people drama. >> Right, right, right. >> it's so much more interesting. >> But, but >> But, it's an important heuristic if a person is also, you know, a conduit for information. >> So, people people drama I stay out of. >> But, dangerous people, I inform everybody about it. >> Because the thing is is that you got to know who to trust. It So, you you're not working in government. I'm not working in government. So, we sign no none of

these NDA [ __ ] We don't got to do [ __ ] [ __ ] all when it comes to UAP stuff, right? We're listening to what people tell us to do like daddy, right? the other people do. >> So, the stakes for them are so much higher. So, imagine if there were a bunch of whistleblowers, and they go to the wrong person to say I need to see if you can get me from embryo to hand to God and the American public, right? And you go to the wrong person. That could be one of those five traps I

told you. And and and then you're controlled. They own you, and you're [ __ ] if you're outside of this world, that might feel dramatic to you. The promise is that it's true. And that is a real issue. So, let's say you've got I get photos from people at Wright-Patterson and they've got up on their cork boards, you know, weaponized Jesse Michaels podcast, their favorite. People come up to me on the street and tell me that they love your podcast. I

sent you videos >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> fans. So, like you get people in these offices and they got they're they're just fans. Okay, they don't know much about UFOs, but they they saw some [ __ ] on radar, this happened or that happened. Then you narrow in from those let's say that's 5,000 people, right, that have hit me up in the last year that are inside government. Then you narrow down. So, now you've got let's say 500 people. So, those 500 people, they know something a little bit more very specifically about UAP and whatnot and the reality.

And then you you narrow down to let's say 50 people. Now, they feel like they want to tell Congress or Senate or or formally report. I'll get those calls. How do I formally do this? What's the mechanism? Who can I trust and not trust? And I'm like, okay, well, here's how you do it. I'll link you with them. We'll make a call. I'll bring you in if it's really important. I'll meet you there. We'll do this. Signals okay for that. Then you get from those What was that? 50 people? You you get in and you narrow to let's say 10 people.

Now, those 10 people, they know something more. And those 10 people, they really need to tell people, but okay, so you got to deal with those 10 Then you narrow down to let's say five people. The amount of information they have compared to those 500, 5,000 it's like critical. It's provable. It can be national security issue. It

could be dangerous. someone like that to break from the fold and say I have [ __ ] tried everything. I am now going to leak something to a journalist I trust, which is an illegal act. And I've never solicited. I I actually tell people of like a young kid called me from a base and you know, blah, blah, blah, and I go, "Stop. Don't even talk to me. You got a long career ahead of you. Whatever you saw or think you saw,

keep it in your head and one day you'll be able to speak freely about it. Do not tell me. You know that joke I have going right now, don't call me and I've got that number going on. That's what that's born from. I say to people, "Don't call me ever again. Find me in 10 years when we're living in a different world. You got a long life ahead of you. It's not that important for your life and your family. But I'm just trying to show you that the amount of people that know, but then the amount of people that know that would

think it's so important to leak something is so minuscule. It's so tiny that it baffles me to this day that people all day, every day, contact me and George and they put that trust in us and they should and we're trustworthy and and you know, we do get leaks. We assess them for years and we our primary thing is do not hurt American security. I think that's why um we've been effective, but I'm just trying to show you, man. Like you talk about a cabal

everything under God that he could do the the right way and he did. He got He got pre-pub from State Department, you know? So, it's like just whom here we are. Matthew Brown, you want to say something, go. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so he ran into all of this kind of documentation of this stuff and he saw video and you know, photos and that sort of thing. and then he has kind of a whole worldview that he's kind of associated with his findings that feels almost like Gnostic in nature and he talks at the

end of your interview, he says, you know, um people are resource maybe for the NHI and he says things that to me are extremely intriguing because I prefer actually in some ways like the sense-making layer. Like what's the worldview? What's the ontology that you know, you were talking about earlier that comes from all of the data, not just what's the data. Uh sometimes I think we we over index on the data itself. So, I think extremely like my curiosity's peaked and then my other

side of my brain is like, but how did he come to that conclusion? >> personal thing. Sure. So, everybody um again, I don't want to speak about people, they speak by themselves, but you know, he has a very fascinating mind. I I can say that like from his own personal stuff, the way he um the world is a I mean, I learned so much, you know, from him like a sensei, something's born before in him. Uh even if we disagree on the fundamental nature of that reality, I think what you're highlighting is it

online he said some very Gnostic kind of quoting things and yeah, that's the way his mind >> Talk about almost like a White House timeline manipulator, too. Like they have sort of timeline Yeah, like they have some sort of AI timeline thing. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was like a super, super AI at the White House. Like >> We should always be ourselves, right? That's the thing I [laughter] I keep In this interview, I keep thinking Jesse asked the question, he's got something to say, and then I say so much. We got to just be ourselves. Matthew has a very

unique way of thinking. He's so like pointed, fastidious, and he'll he'll be silent about the time I'm calls, and just listening. And then he'll say something, and it's very thought out, very thoughtful. So, I think what you're seeing is what's we call um personality. >> I Yeah, sure. >> Yeah, yeah. I just Okay, well, at some point, maybe when this is all said and done, 10 years into the future of disclosure, and it's all acceptable,

I want to go deep with him. Or, if I can at any point, go deep with him on how did he get from the data to that worldview? Cuz the worldview is interesting to me. I'm like, what, you know, what happened there? But I realize he's got a he's got to speak for >> think that was from like if you read the or saw the videos that he um has testified to seeing, right? Not He hasn't been allowed yet with his hand up in front of Congress. We fought hard for that. He didn't want to have his face out there, you know, at all. Um

I think if you read the same stuff cuz I know a lot of people that read and saw the same stuff and more than he did. They don't have the same worldview. >> Yeah, yeah. So, it's not like in the >> That's what I'm saying. Well, that's helpful. That I mean, that even the what you just said is really helpful. That other people have consumed the same thing and not come to the same worldview conclusion. >> Matthew Brown has has this much of the >> Yeah, yeah. >> A tiny tiny all he did was be a

>> Because there's a lot of other things that that he can't talk about that were There's a lot of things things to do with um WMDs that was his specialty that that he also whistle blew on that people don't know about. You know, it's just not That's freaky. >> But um >> on on another note cuz I'm sure you can't say more about that. Um And maybe maybe a good note to end on

and and and and close this amazing conversation. Uh What do you hope for the world? Uh you know, 10 years from today you know, snapshot of where we are with respect to this issue specifically. What do you what do you hope to see? >> It's like I'm you know, I can't look back but I'm trying to look forward now. It's kind of um If the truth is that

that they've been here since the beginning of recorded human history if not before all the major technological nations on Earth have started to try to understand and replicate and grow and evolve from that technology and if the truth is that we've harmed people and lied

our representatives have lied to us. And if that is true and if we have biological entities that are not from planet Earth >> Have you talked to anybody who's said they've seen biologics? >> Yes, in my work, 100%. >> A ton. But Jesse, >> I need more proof and I can't solicit. >> As a journalist, that's a specific word. So, of course, do I believe them? About half of them. The the top dogs.

>> Other people, they just want to seem cool or they want to get into my head for later. Yeah, I've heard that. Mostly autopsy >> Anybody like in person with the >> People have told me that, Jesse. But Like actually a public interview I did once. Um the anonymous interview. Um when I brought Richard Dolan in to interview this man as he was dying on like I think it was like a dialysis machine and we got him out of the thing and he came his wife didn't want him to

>> Oscar Wolfe? >> Yeah, yeah. That's his real name, but I wasn't allowed to release that for like a long time. >> This is his DD >> It's a crazy story. Yeah. >> It's fascinating. >> I had to be real quiet about his real name for a long time, but it was I have his DD-214s, all stuff. I was setting up that interview with Ruben Langdon who set up the entire citizen hearing on >> He saw one >> He saw an alien getting interviewed, according to him, at at S4, Area 51, I at S4, we viewed the autopsy film.

And then the colonel said, "What we've got in here is we're >> gray alien." >> Bro, um that is so in my ancient past. I'd say just watch the video. My impression is that, um if I recall, he was one of the people that I'm saying that has like said that, cuz you asked me a live alien. No, not a ton of people have said to me they've they've been or seen a live alien in government capacity. yeah. But um

there are Yeah, yeah, but a lot of autopsy read outs and I know which autopsy so that you start narrowing it down after the years and you know, people that don't know each other have kind of run across >> Enough where you're pretty high confidence that's that's a component of it. Yeah, yeah. >> got bodies. But like I don't Are they cybernetic? Like are they printed flash with AI high [ __ ] minds? I I don't [ __ ] know. but yeah, I think that's the ultimate thing. So you're ask you were asking me to go What do I hope? I'm just trying to stay I'm trying to stay

on your track. So it's like if I keep saying if if this is true if this is true, this is my best assessment, right? Then I would hope that those tasked with withholding the fundamental nature what it means to be human, which is to interact with a a larger

idea of of being would then stand the [ __ ] down, tell the [ __ ] truth, and let human beings decide for them [ __ ] selves if they can handle That's what I would hope. Now, people have hoped for disclosure for a long time, you know, way before Before I was born. I was born in '77. Before I was born. None of them got it. Now, we are getting something right now,

but we're not having the conversation. >> No, but I hope it it snowballs, you know, I think you kind of saw it with the Epstein stuff where like a little bit came out and then people were like, "Whoa, there's something there." And then they wanted more and they wanted more and they wanted more and then you have all of a sudden representatives in the civilian, you know, Congress who are fighting to get more out and you get more and more documentation and slowly it just kind of snowballs and I think that might be similar with this topic or JFK or a lot of these things where the consensus

just shifts over over a long time horizon. Um so it it while I you can sort of you know, I know a lot of people kind of belittled this drop or think it's a distraction or whatever, uh I think it's uh the beginning of infinity. It's not it's not the end, you know, it's it's the beginning of a possible paradigm shift and that's that's so >> The beginning of infinity. I I was saying it's the floor not the ceiling. It is the beginning of infinity. I am hopeful that we're going to get somewhere, but the only way we get there

is if we push and we do it asymmetrically and everybody that has a voice and everybody that has a desire just use it. Just move. Keep talking. Don't take nothing personal. Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me, right? Just push push and I bet you that tomorrow we will know more um than we do today. I bet you when people see this will know more than than we knew the day before and um yeah man, I'm optimistic. I'm glad to have you in the fight and everybody that has a

microphone or thumbs can just make some noise. >> On that beautiful inspirational note, go watch Sleeping Dog. Check out Weaponized. Subscribe and anything else you want to plug >> Yeah. Yeah. I want to say it it it took a long time for me and Jesse to to trust each other because trust is never given. It's always it's always earned and then it's it's built and then every day you keep reinforcing,

you know, to the trick of being trustworthy is to to to actually be trustworthy. And so I'm grateful that we get this um construct the room and and we get to do this for the first time, and that you know, we will continue this dialogue until we're old old old man. That's what I kept thinking this whole time. It's so fun, and you know, I would love to run it back. So Yeah, but just keep fighting, keep pushing, keep doing what you're doing, and I would like to do a um 2-minute rapid fire, cuz I have

questions for you. You could put it in your episode, or not. >> Sure. Yeah. >> So this is back and forth. >> Rapid fire. Did you start this, what you're doing, with the intention to try to get information to the public that you thought was important? or are you controlled? >> I know. Do you have

people that support you in your life, so that you'll keep going? >> Like loved ones, and >> Yeah, I do. Yeah. Have you found friends that you really trust at this point in this part of your >> I have. Yeah. >> On this topic? >> I had before this. I had on this topic. >> On this topic, yeah yes, for sure. Yeah. >> Will you protect that? >> Always. Yeah. Before before anything, before, you know, relationships over over anything.

>> Will you tell the truth if you find out something is incorrect, and will you tell it loudly? >> Oh, yeah. >> I believe you. >> Thank you, Jeremy. I'm glad I passed the test. >> It's It's not a test. I just like I learned those things about you through >> But now maybe people learn about you, cuz you just told it how it is. >> Yeah, I love it. >> There we go. You got a you know, a lot of people that, you know, are suspicious of you. >> I know. >> And um I was. >> Yeah fair enough.

>> But here we are. >> Here we are. It's frustrating to me, and it it's so it makes me want to quit sometimes cuz it's like uh it's like [ __ ] Like what do what do you do? You know, like it's a the offense on a conspiracy about yourself is always going to beat the defense. Like you can always say [ __ ] about me and whatever. And so I can I can always say you're wrong, you know, you're you're just wrong, and I can point to the facts, but then you can always construct a new thing. And so I you know, it's like uh

Yeah, it's tough. I don't know. >> That is a reality. Is that people do want to quit, and that is the work of a very organized attempt sometimes we need to identify that, and we need to bring it into the light, and you're not going to quit because you told me just now that you do have people that love you and support you about keep going. >> And it feels it feels like a mission that's higher than me. So, that's why I what the part that wants to quit is like the ego that wants to remain intact.

>> Like wants to stay out of the limelight. >> Fight or flight. You want you don't want to be in pain. >> In pain. Yeah. >> Pain is part of life. >> And you mentioned stuff around um you know, your your personal life being encroached on. I've had similar things that freak me out, and I'm like uh and then so it's it's funny to see that simultaneous and I know you face this as well. You have that. You have like creepy [ __ ] happening in your personal life, and then simultaneously you have people calling you a spook. >> And it's like you're you're uh be on both you're being flanked. And I'm

I'm not a [ __ ] spook, and go the [ __ ] away. And just let me, you know, and and And then yeah, and then and then and I'm sure you feel sympathetic to this as There's so much that you put out that they they wouldn't even be into this [ __ ] if you hadn't have put the thing out. >> That's what >> So, they're [ __ ] using your lexicon and all the stuff you bring out, they're taking that, but then they're throwing you in the garbage or whatever, and it's like, [ __ ] off. Like, >> So, the thing is, it's not about you. >> I know.

>> It's not. >> And I've got tunnel vision. So, I'm seeing you right now. I don't see nothing else. You got to do that, but I'm going to correct you on one thing I hope you find it useful later. Which is that you said something about defense. And you said something about like when you're getting all these attacks from every side and people make you want to quit. Okay? Then they win if you quit. Now, quit if you find a beautiful girl and you want an island and just like go live over there. You don't need to be doing this. I know that about you. You don't need to be doing this. I don't need to be doing this, right?

But, I can, so I will. So, the one thing I want to correct you is the best defense is to outpace, outmaneuver, and outperform. Never look back. Unless you're reflecting, but your mom and dad and brother and sisters and your friends will tell you if you're being a [ __ ] and an idiot and help you self-reflect. So, they're better at it than you anyway, right? So, you look forward. You keep going. If you want out at any time, make it your own choice. The best thing you do when you get an

attacked is don't look back. Keep moving forward. Don't think about those attacks. Don't let them in. Don't penetrate them. They don't know you. And they don't own you. You're independent. [ __ ] fight. We need you. >> I appreciate that. >> Well, thank you, Jeremy. >> Love you, buddy. [music] >> You, too, man. >> I am. >> Oh, that was great. That was so cool. then I know you care enough to hear about this. Our show, American Alchemy,

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