The Pentagon’s UFO Program Is Real [Here’s How It Works!] ft. UAPGerb

scared, but also asking for help. >> They were not going to harm me. And that was basically that everything is going to be all right. Just help me get just help us get out of here. >> There's one common thread I found and and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. They're immediately intercepted by between 8 and 12 operators in all black, no insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. All three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. >> Anthrax boosters. >> Yeah. So weird. You are one of the few people who puts names, dates, programs,

acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your >> KONIS and OKONUIS outside KONIS Continental United States Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance Platforms ISR OICI and yes FFRDC federally funded research and development centers. >> Correct. You have somebody like Dick Cheney maybe at the top >> and then you have these six different kind of high up intelligence >> and DoD stuff. Okay. So you have DoD plus intelligence organizations.

timelines. You have Tim Taylor. He kind of thinks of himself as like a adjustment bureau timeline management person. This sphere was basically used to I I guess like uh coagulate time onto the plank scale. Looking at at time as as frames of plank scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel

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Incogn. Use code American Alchemy at off today. I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb who in my estimation is the most hardcore UFO researcher today. And I think in a world where kind of a lot of people like to talk in these sort of

really vague generalities, it's always everything is everything. a lot of mushy brain thinking where A is true and B is true but somehow A and B are mutually exclusive nothing really makes sense you know accept everything kind of >> you are one of the few people who tries to put names dates programs you know acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program you're famous for your acronyms and you have a real map that you're kind of uh basically like illustrating

through every single episode of what is actually happening in the concrete UFO reverse engineering program. So, I'm excited to get into all of that with you >> Well, thanks for having me on, Jesse. Uh, this is the kind of second big program we've done and a while ago, I think it was the beginning of the year, um, I had a super small channel you had me on. Um, really brought some exposure to kind of my platform. So, I'm super grateful to that. I I appreciate you kind of taking a chance and having me on then. We had a great conversation then. and we'll have an even better conversation today because uh people

out specifics and be as specific as possible. I've been super interested in the subject since I was a little kid, but you know, we talked about this yesterday. Um it seemed to me and it just like a lot of people approached this topic like there was always the amorphous they of running UFO reverse engineering programs. the big US government, the big they. And it wasn't until David Grush spoke in 2023 that something clicked in my head and I thought I can really start attributing names to these programs, people have worked in the programs, where these

programs might take place, exact mechanisms, how these programs might be funded, exact contractors, exact institutions that might be working on them. So, I love hyperspecifics and if we want to talk hyper specifics today, we can do just that. Let's do it because I think a lot of people are probably extremely confused at the org chart, you know, of the actual UFO legacy program. I think the debrief published something >> uh I want to say at the end of last year around the White House having to do with some of these programs. You hear that the White House sometimes has to do with

some of the programs and then simultaneously you hear that the president doesn't have a need to know and doesn't know anything about the programs. So you hear these things all the time that are so handwavy about the how this stuff works. And I think you're the only person who's actually mapping it out. What is the org structure of the UFO Legacy program? >> So, I'm trying to map it out. I think at the end of the day, this is probably more complicated than any of us can guess because there's 90 80 90 years at least of of these programs being spun up out of the Manhattan Project, out of the Atomic Energy Commission, out of

probably initially the the executive branch and the National Security Council. But the way I really like to look at UFO legacy programs, programs to retrieve, store, exploit, and derive technical vehicles of unknown origin, is simplistic terms like a pyramid. The head of the pyramid is uh the puller of the strings. That's probably a name we don't know. Or it's probably somebody like the late Dick Cheney. Um I I think that that's probably highly accurate. Um that what did Walter Kern say? That Dave Grush told him that uh Dick Cheney was

the head of the UFO pyramid for quite a while. That's highly likely probably >> The closest person we got that I was aware of was unfortunately now deceased Vice President Dick Cheney. Uh Darth Vader himself. Not shocking that he was involved in this. And essentially when he left in 2009, that was the last time that these activities really had central >> Now below that, there seems to be UFO Legacy Program administrators. Now, these administrators are

likely seem to stem from the big six intelligence agencies, not big five, the National Security Agency, NSA, uh, DIA, CIA, NRO, and NGA. Uh, there's not five, there's six. There's the Nuro, the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, which was established in 1969 and still has not been disclosed to this day. Um so directorates within those intelligence agencies for example the CIA's directorate of science and technology seems to be a legacy program administrator and then uh conversely on the uh same side other side of that coin

uh DoD agencies you know this could be the Edwards 412 test wing this could be army test and evaluation command this could be the office of naval intelligence the office of naval research and so those seem to be the UFO legacy program administrators now in most of discussion about legacy programs uh and This is kind of perpetuated in in most mainstream discussion of the topic. It's okay. The United States government, DoD and intelligence community and then contractors, you know, the Loheed Martin, the North of Grumins, the Battel Memorial Institutes. I think that's

incorrect. And I I think that's very incorrect. I think there's an intermediary step between that and this is below the legacy program admins and above the defense industrialbased contractors, the prime contractors. And that is uh people pro people who watch my channel will probably laugh at me saying this because I talk about it non-stop, but FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers. These are governmentowned contractor operated institutions that are subject matter experts for all sorts of of programs that the United States government, DoD, and IC can't handle themselves. So

but elements of the department of defense or intelligence community can still maintain access control over materials uh information personnel etc. So the FFRDC can serve as an R&D expert and subject matter expert and be a program admin for the defense industrial-based contractors. So that's how the USG United States government and its elements of legacy programs can still retain control over these programs. You know people talk about oh the programs have run away in in Locky Martin and Northrup Crumb and I I don't think that's correct. Uh people will say

that these programs have no oversight. No, I think there's a very structured oversight to these programs. It's just not traditional oversight channels. >> And then at the bottom of this pyramid is the defense industrial-based prime contractors. the Loheed Martins, the Northup Grummans and what Northrup ate up uh BDM, TRW, Teladine Ryan, >> Rathon, um Rathon especially with the US Army and so forth. The mortar that holds this pyramid together would be the defense industrial base and uh funding

mechanisms. This would be stuff like major range and test facility bases or MRTFBs, which are basically large DoD ranges across the continental United States. Um I believe there are 26 such agencies. Uh they are spread across the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force and Defense Defense Agency. Examples here include the Nevada Test and Training Range. Um you know that houses Area 51 that houses allegedly S4 that houses the Tonapa test range. All sorts of weird

little Sandia run sites. Um the numbered areas. This includes the Utah test and training range. um the West Desert Test Center. Both of those are situated on Dougway proving ground, Edwards 412 test wing out of Edwards Air Force Base, China Lake, uh Puxent River, um and so forth and funding mechanisms. I think the best way to look at this is what David Grush has spoken about. And this would essentially be misappropriation of funds, right? um IRAD uh independent research and development which is a very creative system that defense

industrialbased contractors can take upon projects that they consider to be in the interest of national security and build the DoD for it. >> Uh this includes carryover funds which basically budget left over at the end of a fiscal year that's not reported that's then utilized by the agency. [snorts] And we can talk about this more, but in 1994 1995, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which runs America's spy satellites, IMT and SIGT primarily, uh, that David Grush worked for, as well as the NGA, got in busted in huge

by thousands of dollars. Profit margins of like 60 to 80% on on submarines. Um, socket wrenches for for fighter jets priced like 15,000% over what they should be worth and so forth. And then finally, uh, you know, if we're if we're thinking about this pyramid as like the old Egyptian pyramids, the the pyramids were once encased in limestone, right? Um, to protect the pyramids from the elements and so forth. Well, that limestone casing for this UFO legacy program pyramid, this would be program protection strategies. This would be the

DARPA Defense Advanced Research Project Agency um security and intelligence directorate SID >> which is responsible for program protection for some of the United States most classified special access programs. >> Uh DARPA said this is the boogeyman. >> This would also be uh Department of Energy Intelligence, Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counter Intelligence OICI. And yes, the DOE has its own intelligence agency. M this would be blackbudget program structure like SAPS special access programs USAPS unacknowledged special

access programs or in the intelligence community CAPS controlled access program carve out contracts with defense industrial prime contractors. Further examples of program protection strategy would be complex SCOPS disinformation disinformation campaigns uh national security council programs Sean Kirkpatre Arrow Rick Dodie stuff like that. So in like a I I think that took like 10 minutes but in a super broad term that is how I view the structure of legacy programs a very complex pyramid and again it's probably far more complex than than we can even begin to to

test wing back there as a major range and test facility base kind of like the mortar that sticks together these legacy programs well I'm familiar with a Air Force Lieutenant Colonel out there who claims to have run a um a program that was focused on testing alien reproduction vehicles and derivative technology. This guy was an electronics warfare group to test >> uh group director. He claimed to serve as the intermediary between um >> uh test pilots >> on the ARV and uh contractors and scientists and so forth. >> Wow. And this was at Edwards.

>> 412th test division. >> 412 test wing. Yeah. >> Test wing. The Edwards 412 test wing also operates. They're also the manned people at Area 51. >> Okay. So, the Edwards 412 test wing also has a big presence at the NTR, Nevada test and training range and the Tonapa test range. >> Wow. And so, and so this this lieutenant colonel from the Air Force, what is he saying about like the test? So for for the audience, you know, if you're not aware, ARV is alien reproduction vehicle, which is basically a reverse

engineered UFO, maybe with some, you know, human tech slapped on to make it >> Um, and so what is he saying about these ARVs? How are they are they similar to the Mark McCandish story where it looks like human kind of older tech retrofitted on super advanced alien tech or what is it? >> It seems like a more advanced platform. This guy has gone pretty quiet because I think he was was threatened like many people are in this topic. But his testimony uh mainly takes place between 2000 1998 when the Nevada Test and

Training Range was renamed from the 98th Range Wing uh and about 2007208. So these were many times triangular airframes uh saucer shaped airframes. Nothing too specific about that but >> it's very interesting. the subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I've started to transition more to the usage of the term derivative technology. >> Uh because I think that ARV isn't the end all beall of what we're trying to do with um an exploit from from exotic

non-human technologies. >> I think I think there are instance in instances in which even just simple technologies are are plucked off of exotic vehicles and tried to be adapted to, you know, prosaic US airframes. Yeah, the classic example I like kind of run into and I go back and forth on it is like I think Towns and Brown figured out like you know real anti-gravity or whatever in the human kind of terrestrial context with these kind of capacitor experiments but the thing he used to love to use was bismouth because

I'm under this for about 2 to 3 minutes. Um, and then the center light flashes two to three times. No sound. immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum in my opinion. Um, and I immediately feel static electricity all over my body and then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm. That that really strong summer thunderstorm smell gets up to flight level. Um, I'm trying to get my phone reset and I can only see the center light at this point. If I didn't

actually see it take off, I would have thought it was a star. Uh, and it seemed like the triangle appeared around a light almost like it was using signature management capabilities. Now, Dylan Borland, he said that I I think he inferred he doesn't think the vehicle was human, but uh, because of what he he learned after after having some exposure into legacy programs. I still maintain that triangles are likely human airframes, at least most of them. And >> electrooptic cloaking is a is a very sought-after capability. There have been instances in the early 2000s in which specifically the army uh was interested in adapting electrooptic cloaking to

next generation combat vehicle. Think of an M1 Abrams tank with a cloaking device on it. But that makes sense, right? Um >> what makes you think the electrooptic cloaking came from nonhuman technology. >> Witness testimony. >> Witness testimony. >> But that that >> which witness testimony? he he he doesn't want to be spoken >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. But like can you speak high level to his >> Yeah, very high level. Somebody somebody that I would I would trust with my life. >> Um but but that makes sense, right? Like

what would be a sought-after capability if if some of these u UFOs exhibit, you know, some of the five or six observables, including low observability and and some of these employing. That'd be a very sought-after capability. I mean, what could be more valuable than our aerial platforms or our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance platforms, ISR airframes that can literally go invisible and gather intelligence 100 ft away from from a target over denied airspace? >> Well, what does this witness say? Anything that you can relay as far as how exactly, you know, NHI derived?

>> Oh, he No, he doesn't know. Okay. there was just a there's vehicles that employed cloaking systems that there were facets of the army that was trying to adapt this to to US vehicles. So that's that's kind of one of the reasons I started to use derivative technology. I I love the Mark Mandelish story. Uh which I I I do believe that is a legitimate story of the the flux liner and basically a copycat vehicle. Uh basically the you know the sports model that Bob talks about being basically an extraterrestrial vehicle we're trying to figure out and drive. So I like using the term extra I mean uh sorry

and you know also knows David Grush and he came out and he was like I I expected the head of the UFO legacy program to be like a Templar in Europe or something >> a night of >> a night of Malta but in fact or Rosaian whatever but in fact it's it was just Dick Cheney you know all along is um >> so like do you think there's a majestic 12? Do you think somebody like a Dick Cheney is was in the modern-day equivalent of the Majestic 12? >> I think Dick Cheney uh absolutely was. I mean, he's passed now. I think he was the the head of some facets of UFO

the same time that the MJ12 was allegedly set up. Same with Walter B. Smith being read into the MJ12 after James Forestto was thrown out of a naval hospital window. And apparently Walter Bean Smith taking his replacement in MAG 12 and actual meetings with Truman on that exact date as well as the interplanetary phenomenon unit documents that were I think released in 1994 1995 to Tim Cooper from uh a pseudonym Thomas Kwell those are interesting the IPU doc specifically there the IPU was kind of

discovered through foyer requests in 1986 1987 by researchers such as William Steinman. Uh according to Foya, IPU, the interplanetary phenomenon unit was an in-house army unit [clears throat] only existing through institutional memory. Uh there are people like Kevin Randall that kind of proposed some debunks like the IPU was like an internal processing unit for the mail room of the army. I I >> do you know who Steinman foyed like which government agency let out that the IPU existed? >> I it was army counter intelligence. >> Army CIC

>> I mean that's pretty interesting. They're saying this thing exists, but it only exists in institutional memory. All the records were wiped >> cuz apparently this was held under like a J2 or something at the time. >> What's interesting, I I kind of recently went through the IPU docs um specifically related to Sandia because we can talk, we should and can talk specifically probably about what institutions, what people, what places are probably engaged in the programs. But the IPU doc uh the field report or the IPU report it stated like July 1947

and this basically details allegedly how the Roswell retrieval incident went down. And the document talks about a special engineering detachment as said sed which was like a Manhattan project engineering detachment and stuff being uh sent out to the Roswell wreckage led by one Colonel Housebrook of the armed forces special weapons project AFSWP. um basically to attend to the wreckage and so forth. The AFSWP is very interesting. It was it was started one half by James Forestto and by another individual. The AFSWP has gone through a

series of evolutions and today is known as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency or Ditra. Uh Ditra is what Dylan Borland had just said on the Weaponized podcast housed old atomic energy commission records that stated that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. M >> um the AFSWP was established in 1947 at Sandia Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. >> Uh right at the same time when Los Alamos Z division, which was kind of their weapon ordinance arm, established operations at Sandia base. So uh Sandia National Lab, which is a Department of

pick your two. And I think Danny Sheen accused him of being at Northrup. So maybe we go with whatever Sheen says. I don't know. >> I'm surprised he said that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals? >> Um, look, man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try. >> There you go. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Um, but like he's Barber is doing kind of the the just tip of the spear, you know, job and he's not given the full

context. And then the FFRDC's have a little bit more context, some insulation as far as federal funding. And then above that, the intelligence organizations. And then above that, you have like what cabinet level people like Dick Cheney. Like do you have a sense of like who who the equivalent of Dick Cheney is now? >> I don't know. But if I had to guess, it'd be somebody with a naval background and an intelligence community >> It seems like naval programs have been tip of the spear for a long time and deal with a lot of really sensitive stuff because they also deal with the subject of USO. Y

>> um and that sort of transmedial capability to travel underwater undetected and and their hidden intelligence agency, the neuro seems very high priority. So I would imagine this is somebody with a joint naval and intelligence community background. >> Makes sense. Yeah. Harold Malgm kept emphasizing that the office of naval intelligence knew way more than meets the eye. >> Test details are controlled by naval >> It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s. And if that was like, you know, at his time, you know, 60s and 70s,

>> you would think that there would be this throughine between then and now, >> uh, you obviously have, you know, rumors of Bobby Ray Enman, you know, uh, being sort of involved, you know, with this stuff as well. And so, you maybe he would be somebody at the Cheney level. Do you uh anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be uh become available for uh technological research outside of the uh military >> Again, I honestly don't know. >> Uh 10 years ago, the answer would have

been no. >> Uh whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it is a possibility. Let's actually go through a couple of those like below Cheney kind of at at the tip of the spear for the administrator level. >> I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or are spearheading or have highlevel exposure to UFO legacy >> have extensive backgrounds in the NRO. >> Uh so I have a couple documents here. >> Um maybe we can go go through a couple of these. >> Let's do it. These are just kind of

people um that I'd love to talk about, >> so for the NRO, you have uh >> maybe we could start with Bobby Ray Inman, right? >> Bobby Ray Inman when he talked spoke to Bob Echler in 1989 1988, he referred NASA mission specialist Bob Echler to Sumar Shapiro, director of naval intelligence, as well as R. Everett or R. Evans Heinman. His naming conventions a little weird. Heinman was the NRO program B director from 1982 to 1989.

NRO program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between the NRO and CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology and the ground element of NRO program B was established at Pineap Australia. I know Pine Gap is is super spooky, but uh >> they call it Australia's Area 51. >> Right. Right. And uh Bobby Ray Enman basically said, "Hey to Ashley, if you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles, go talk to Heinman." >> Uh other interesting people with high level connections to the NRO include uh

Donald Kerr. Donald Kerr was mentioned in uh Oki Shannon's 1985 advanced theoretical physics working group documents. This was a physics group held at uh BDM International in 1985 at their MLAN facility. Uh super super super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at Stoublebine was involved with all this stuff and >> I'll put >> Yeah. in Okei Shannon's notes it's like ask Don Kerr for funding when talking about like UFO reverse engineering >> Uh Donald Kerr was of course high level

position in the NRO. >> He was director of EG&G. M >> he was director of Los Alamos, director of sic, >> deputy director of the CIA's director of science and technology. So there's this specific weird there's this really specific weird um kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA >> And with that CSI CIA DS&T, uh back in 2003, the CI CIA Directorate of Science and Technology, which

maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit. So, I said the NRO had uh program B at at Pine Gap. Uh early days of the NRO, it had program A, B, C, and D. At a time in the '90s or so, this was reorganized into directorates, just kind of subgroups under under the NRO, under the CIA. So, I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are are stuffed within these directorates. And to speak about the the NRO and the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology, there's a lot of really weird um really weird crossovers there. So I I think it's important to look at

individuals with with connections to NRO, CIA, DS&T. >> Uh two highle almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the MITER Corporation which is an FFRDC. There's a very tangled web between NRO, DS&T, MITER. And then two offices within the United States government I'd like to talk about a little bit. Uh this would be the office of the under secretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment >> This has previously gone through

they um they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions. that DDNI ATNF is is rather interesting. On one hand, you have uh Paul Kaminsky >> who was oustat and MITER. Mhm. >> On the other hand, you have somebody like um Don Meyer right here who is MITER and DDNI ATNF with a long agency background, long very weird agency >> Former deputy director of the CIA for science and technology and we know a

couple of you know connections there is Glenn Gaffne obviously director of science and technology for the CIA. >> Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP Federation? >> I have a name for you. >> Go ahead. Glenn Gaffne, CIA. >> Glen Gaffne, [clears throat] CIA. >> Now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically, you know, blocked >> this, uh, you know, moving of exotic, you know, non-human origin technology that was under locked, uh, that was

for at least speaking out in general. Um he goes on I believe I've only seen clips of Age of Disclosure, not the whole thing. um where there was a program when he was the director of national intelligence uh where they were tracking these vehicles over Area 51 of course the famed uh classified test location and I'm a little bit disappointed as a fellow Air Force officer and certainly General Clapper ra rose to the ranks as threear general. Uh that's all he said in the documentary that that was a program he was aware of.

James Clapper, calls me, "Mike, I need you to go through all of it. I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding all of its files, and I need everything that you have on UFOs." And I'm like, "What? Sir, you want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs?" >> We interrupt this broadcast for a very important briefing. You've been selected purely at random and definitely not monitored to attend a routineformational briefing regarding odd happenings across the globe.

>> That's right. It's probably nothing. >> Agents Ramsay and Michaels will embark on a perfectly ordinary North American tour to discuss strange sightings, testimonies, and evidence that will force the government to say >> it's probably nothing. Each evening's sessions will feature expert analysis, audience interrogation, and at least one moment where you turn to the person next [music] to you and whisper, "Well, rest assured, it's probably nothing." Should you experience confusion, excitement, or sudden clarity during the show, do not worry.

>> Chris Ramsey here from Area 52. We're so excited to come hang out with all of you in Austin and Montreal. >> For now, we've only got these two cities locked in, but hopefully we're going to open up a bunch more in the [music] coming weeks. >> And VIP seats in Austin are already sold out, but there are still seats left in both cities. >> We've got some insane guests lined up for these theaters and cannot wait to see all of you. >> Go to it's probably nothing.com to get your [music] tickets today. And remember, if you've ever experienced something completely impossible,

logistics agency. This is a combat support agency. So, >> you know, let's just say in Honduras an eggshaped craft goes down. the CIA OGA would be responsible for getting u you know JOC tier one adjacent assets and probably the department of energy nuclear emergency support team and other assets down to retrieve the craft. >> Do you know the first director of uh OGA the office of global access? >> Doug Wolf. >> This is Doug Wolf. >> Do you know Doug Wolf additionally spent 16 years in the NRO executive he was the

executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office. He was indeed CIA DS&T deputy director. He indeed started the OGA and indeed he was the DDNI ATNF, the deputy director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions. >> Uh there's there's there's a ton of people like that. There's an individual named Mark Moahan. If you if you find him on LinkedIn, he's total spook of spooks. This guy uh DDNI, ATNF, this guy CIA, OGA, CI CIA, DS&T, NRO. So there

seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFO Legacy Program gatekeepers and one of those gatekeeping offices, the DS&T and the NRO. It seems like this revolving door old boys club where you go from >> the DS&T of the CIA to you know MITER Corporation or you you know some other fedally funded research and development. You go to Rand or whatever you go to the NRO or you know >> I can't stress this enough about the importance of MITER. >> Yeah. Yeah. the DOE national labs you know Sandia Oak Ridge Lawrence Livermore

Los Alamos those are critical but the importance of MITER MITER is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject >> why do you think that is >> because they deal with naval programs >> subject of USO >> and what's their role with respect to the Navy is it like tech protection or is it >> probably everything >> UFO related stuff or >> I induce industrial security to uh SAP management to >> monitor monitoring large craft under the water to material exploitation to

>> oversight channels that exist um >> to doing all sorts of stuff. The the the MITER pipeline of people who have worked for MITER as you can see Paul Kaminsky uh Don Meer's Donald Kerr numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO legacy programs end up at MITER. >> Well, it's funny. I know them in the context of like holding these anti-gravity conferences and like I think Ning Lee spoke at one in the early 2000s. She was this famous Chinese American, you know, anti-gravity researcher at University of Alabama

Huntsville. She claimed to make all these breakthroughs in like weight reduction above superconductor. Yeah. Amazing. And um or I think it's weight reduction which is a little distinct from mass reduction. Yeah. >> Um but but yeah, same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it, you know, and and um and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and you know, sort of these, you know, you uh alternating current rotating superconductors. She's saying she wants to create free energy for the world. She's citing how put off and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums

and stuff. >> And then she gets a contract, I believe, with the army. She gets a security clearance and then nobody ever really hears from her again. She gets hit by a car. It's sort of really weird. But she was seen last publicly speaking at this MITER uh corporation conference about anti-gravity. Yeah, I I admit her and I did sit down and I interviewed her and this was at a conference in 2003 just outside of Washington DC uh run by the or overseen by the MITER Corporation and

it was looking at I think high frequency gravitational waves and um you know she she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA uh experiments I mentioned earlier about um rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments and um she she chaired one of the sessions. I talked to her afterwards about it all. She had this view that this was science and

cuz you have people online like Ashton Forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a a macro scale human being or something. When I've spoken to Eric Davis, he seems to be, you know, like talking about like quantum teleportation, saying like that's already established science and, >> you know, that sounds insane because the word teleportation is in it, but like is that necessarily >> involved in like UFO tech or is it >> I don't know. I the so much of the science and physics is so far beyond me.

for for who knows >> and conventionally U Glen Gaffne CIA DS&T deputy director was the one who put the kibos and killed this. Um our mutual friend Rob Jones has done some amazing work. He also offers in the name Robert Cardio who is actually DDNI and head of the NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. >> And while I think uh Robert Cardillo was absolutely involved and people should go look up Robert Cardio if they're unfamiliar with him, I I think this was a DS&T operation specifically Glenn Gaffne to uh put the gibbos on this. So

>> What did he say? >> Oh, no. Just nothing. >> Oh, nothing. Okay. No respons. >> So, Sturivant here has a really weird history. She worked at the BDM Corporation. In 1985, she joined the agency. When I say agency, I mean CIA for counter intelligence, tech protection, all that stuff. Um, she kind of went she worked in joint CIA director of operations and CIA director of science and technology programs. She was a very high level deputy director position in the NRO. Uh and then in in in two she

also served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence where she and Chris Melon actually worked together for numerous years. Not only did they work together, but they they attended many of the same meetings. Not only did they attend many of the same meetings, but over certain periods and quarters, they have the exact same PDM, >> which implies that they traveled together, they ate together, they attended the same meetings together on the same cars, the same craft. So I would wager these two have a very uh they they know each other quite well. She was also served as a special adviser to the president under George W. Bush. And in 2006 she joined Loheed Martin as

the vice president for government affairs from 2006 to 2021 as well as VP for intelligence joint and science and technology programs. So I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Loheed Martin. Once you're agency, you're agency for life, right? If if you're in the CIA, you're never out of the CIA. especially the director of science and technology. So I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that um due to her obligations and allegiance to the CIA DS&T she had to help put the kibos on this technology transfer and also

>> but you think of if she knew Melon I mean you think of Melon also is very pro you know kind of UFO stuff at least now >> what I would say to Christopher Melon if he's watching this because I've asked him numerous times ask her again Mr. Melon because I'm sure this time she'll >> Okay. Yeah. There you go. >> I'm sure this time she'll remember. >> And here is Mary Stavant. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [gasps] >> It's so interesting. I mean, you you often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well. Yeah. >> Like um >> you hear about, you know, Mike Turner

>> it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur obviously when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA that involve taking their material and, you know, making it kind of, you know, congressional civilian oversight. Uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, they're they're obviously not going to be happy about that. But it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the >> Yeah, it seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure. One of the most obvious factions is TTSA, which involves the whole off crew, Eric Davis, Halputoff, uh, Lou Alzando, uh,

Chris Melon, all these guys. um their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non-human intelligence and technical vehicles and that there's programs to recover these but no discussion of derivation of technologies possibly for national security concerns or whatever they want to say. Uh and they really like to pose the whole NHI or super national security threat narrative. The whole TTSA saga is very weird. It seems like in in 2011 Tom Dong was plucked. M >> uh this could have been an old bass big

advanced aerospace space studies project. Um, you know, they had some of their their documents under OAP kind of not leaked but discovered and there was discussion of a project forum >> within those which was to basically in California take you know celebrities, media personalities, popular people to start talking about the UFO subject and I think that likely Tom Delong and TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Lou Alzando under direction of something like the National Security Council to bring forth limited disclosures. TTSA is wacky when you look at it. You know, Tom Dong had numerous

or been exposed to them had amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector. >> There were there were clearly guys involved in that who had ulterior motives and then I do think >> I think you know some people don't give Tom Dong enough credit for modern >> because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject. I think if it weren't for a lot of what he got out and I do think >> he on his own organically made a ton of connections poked the bear a lot >> to the effect of a lot of these guys

coming out to him and he kind of >> I think put a lot of this stuff together and so yeah may maybe there you know ulterior motives with some of the people involved but I don't think Tom had ulterior mot I think he had very genuine you know >> he was a trailblazer I think so yeah >> I also think a strong argument can be made he was exposed to some pretty radical stuff whether this was authorized or unauthorized uh disclosures. If you look at his appearance on Joe Rogan back in 2017, October of 2017, this was like the radical time that he came out and talked about TTSA, there's something that

>> he says that his highlevel sources in the NRO specifically told him that scientists and eggghheads had figured out ways to basically pre-predict when and where craft would appear and thus satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would would capture these quote unquote episodic visits. >> His connections to the NRO. >> Whilst he was at TTSA, uh Luellaando was liaison to the NRO. >> He was liaison to the NRO. >> Whoa. I don't think a lot of people know

stuff, you're like I I'll often like I'll catalog some of these things and I'll be like, well, I'm not so sure. and then I'll do my own open source research and I'll run into something and I'm like damn he was like right about that too like um you know like he he talks about I think the Maynard consortium and secret machines >> yeah based on the Jason committee >> the Jason committee or it was like I think it was like this international corporate board that oversaw the UFO issue and it's either the the Jason committee I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the the US like our you know kind of most sensitive

>> but um I almost associate that with you know if you read like Jacqu Vallet's Forbidden Science, he talks about like the Carile group constantly coming up, you know, and and and even Ben Rich, there's a quote in the early 90s, I think, with his uh letters between him and and uh John Andrews, I think, of Testor Motor Corp, >> and he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be rested out of the international governance board and taken

into American hands And so, you know, you you have a lot of things like that where you're like, you know, it seems like Tom actually was had a lot of great >> Yeah, I that's such a great point because it seems like, you know, whether it's a five eyes retrieval program or, you know, tech protection stuff like the the JSON committee, which was founded out of MITER, by the way. Uh, >> interesting. Yeah, >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. Cool. >> So, that's why start looking at MITER. Also like as a as a side note when was MITER and a lot of these FFRDC started like the aerospace corporation 1959 1960

forgotten uh founded the NRO was one of the co-founders. He was one of the co-directors because just like we talked about with the NRO and CIA DS&T, uh the NRO was an the NRO is unique because it exists as a joint DoDIC agency and upon its creation in in 1961 after a shootown of a U2 spy plane over denied airspace in the Soviet Union. Uh the NRO had had co-directors, one from the DoD, one from the IC. Y and it's weird that the CIA seems to have a little tugofwar over any lately founded uh US intelligence agency. Same thing with the Nuro, founded in 1969. up until 1972 there was

like something might line up there. What do you think of, you know, Malm Gren's testimony? Cuz I did that interview >> and I honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by like, you know, mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential adviser for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. You could argue with his level of seniority with, you know, JFK specifically, but he admitted that like, you know, he didn't deal a ton with JFK directly. he dealt more with Shrivever or whatever. Um, and then you can't really argue with his,

>> the opposite of Kissinger and he was >> you know, likely I think, you know, I think he he was CIA. Yeah. And um and I think he was likely actually appointed to uh kind of restrain Kissinger in many ways. Like he was kind of he was he was tagged with uh reigning in Kissinger who was seen as this kind of rogue guy. So what do you think of his testimony? Because there are some people who've I think it's kind of this coordinated job, but like some people have come out and attacked him since since that interview. I think Malgren was likely CIA and his

position at the IDA was a knock or nonofficial cover, which is a very common uh thing for agency stuff. >> I hope that I think over time that Malgrim's testimony is going to age like fine wine. I mean I was I was re listening to your project with him just for one of my projects and I was particularly intrigued when he is talking about uh intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves and so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels

because they basically fund themselves. This comports exactly what with what I think about institutions like the NRO or other intelligence agencies and UFO legacy programs 1994 1995. They can use carryover funds basically to do whatever the heck they want. I also think that I I hope the 1962 uh Bluegill Triple Prime nuclear test starts to get revisited with what Malmrren said of course that was a um was that were those tests over Bikini Atoll? Where were those >> Johnston ATL came to me? Yeah, >> I know there's been some discussion on whether that was a targeting pod or or

something that that was knocked out by the residual EMP at the nuclear blast when stated that you know Bissell briefed him on that being a UFO. I think Jeff Crookshank has done some incredible work and is still to this day making the argument that that was a UFO recovered by the USS I think it was engage. >> Yeah. Um what's interesting about about that testimony is those tests were a um were conducted under the a evolution agency of the AFSWP, the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, which eventually became Ditra. I can't remember the agency specifically. AF

AFSWP went through like eight or nine iterations before it became Ditra. Sorry, not eight or nine, that's an exaggeration. Like four or five. >> but that agency did the testing of the >> Yeah. and Sandia supplied like uh the the a specific rocket payload for that testing and such. But what's interesting to me is when uh Dylan Borland talks about old Atomic Energy Commission records talking about uh concluding that UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles based upon the Atomic Energy Commission. I I wonder if if part of those records adhere to the AFSWP before it came

became Ditra recording that crash. >> Yeah. And the the whole I mean so there's this guy you know Dean Johnson who took you know tried to do this like takedown of Algrren and the whole takedown was like you know he couldn't have held the queue clearance which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the FBI at all if the guy was CIA you just wouldn't and especially if you're a nonofficial cover CIA there's just no way. And so I think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot. And then you could say, well, he wasn't CIA, but it's like if you read the tea leaves on the interview, he's saying he handled

the presidential daily brief. That's a CIA thing. He's saying he's best friends with Tom Farmer, who's happened to be the general counsel of the CIA. >> He had Paul Melon's walking stick in the interview, and I'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever because I wanted to see it and he had it off hand just in his apartment. >> Does it represent anything? It looks looks very unique. >> Well, he has a lot of power. [laughter] >> So, Paul Melon's the founder, one of the founders of the CIA. So, like I don't

know. You got to read the read the kind of tea leaves on it. Um, you know, and I I kind of I think figured that out through kind of basic research. You know, he's at Oxford, he's Yale, you know, it's like it's Richard Bissell's your mentor. He's deputy director. He's number two in the entire CIA. we have Richard Bissell all over his diary. So, it's like so clear to me that he was CIA. And then I don't know, I felt like >> maybe it was hard for me to to break this, you know, gentlemanly oath that he had he was kind of breaking it on his

own. You know, he clearly was breaking it in the UFO context, but I felt weird explicitly outing him. >> Yeah. Hey, are you CIA? >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's the guy's like, you know, literally by the time we had put it out, he had passed away sadly. And so like I just didn't feel like it was my place. But I did insert a little thing at the very beginning of the monologue saying if you if you like look if you like watch this entire interview you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the eye. >> And I think that didn't maybe a lot of people didn't process that. Clearly

Deian Johnson didn't but uh I don't >> The the Q clearance specifically is kind of a a mute point to me. Of course Q clearance is the DOE's equival equivalent of a top secret clearance. I mean, so there there are some not public individuals that that I'm familiar with. Uh, one of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a crash retrieval team, UFO crash retrieval team out of the Nevada Test and Training Range. I've spent a lot of time uh kind of vetting this person and and studying their claims. And I I have to say I I do trust

controller pipeline taken into the >> means getting getting erased yeah >> it's an agency term right >> yeah going full ghosts. >> Yeah. And so this guy was sheep dipped into the the programs and uh four >> programs went on on on blue sites or unacknowledged sites just to hang out for staging ops for rapid reaction retrieval teams. He has a badge. >> The badge has NRO on it and it just has a halfaphazardly slapped on Q clearance. So again, I have to state that this I can't really provide evidence for this

guy's testimony to you and this should be taken with conjecture of course, but this individual I I personally believe as testimony and um it seems like he never tested for a Q clearance. He never went through any sort of um system to get a Q clearance. He was just given it. >> He was just given the Q clearance. Yeah. And and the re I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically, >> but as far as the classification and clearances of this stuff of the atomic energy commission and special nuclear material, all of that stuff is really

important. So yeah, so go watch David Grush on Joe Rogan. If you've if >> you've watched it once, watch it again. If you've watched it twice, watch it half a dozen times and listen to the minutiae of what he says. um specifically legacy programs starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the Manhattan project and the 1954 atomic energy agreement birthing a lot of the secrecy behind uh UFO legacy program classification and controls. From that we can take that the department of energy and its precursor agency, the atomic energy commission. They hold a lot of the classification systems that govern UFO legacy programs and secrecy

and who gets read into the bigot list and the USAPs and how the programs are delegated and where they're housed and so forth. And specifically, there's numerous mechanisms that the uh atomic energy commission and department of energy can utilize uh based upon the 1954 atomic energy agreement. These include special nuclear materials, anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radio yeah radioactive um signatures just oh let's put that as special nuclear material. Uh transclassified foreign nuclear information, which that's famously outlined in the UAPDA for three years in

a row, specifically named TFNI, transclassified foreign nuclear information. and FII, foreign intelligence information. Now, what's interesting about foreign intelligence information is is there's a caveat to it that I think really enforces my theory. Uh, one subset of foreign intelligence information, FII, is non-contract, which means not releasable to customers or contractors. I believe this is a security mechanism used for Department of Energy and their semi-autonomous subordinate agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration to offiscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA National

Labs, Sandia, Lawrence Liverour, uh, Los Alamos, and then the Y12 complex which houses Oakidge. >> So, that's a very interesting rabbit to go to because of course there's it seems like with legacy programs there's numerous layers of of program security. There's the DARPA SID uh if you're considered an insider outsider threat to them, they'll just kill you. There's the DOE OICI uh who >> are there examples of them like taking people out or >> No, I no public. >> Yeah. But [clears throat] the DOE OICI >> Well, where are you getting that though? That DARPADID can just like take people

out. Well, I made a I just made a a tweet about this uh pretty recently about the DARPADID and basically their program protection structure for special access programs within the United States for the most national security like restrictive special access programs, the innovative exotic technology programs for the United States. And it just it stands to reason that um the CIA historically hasn't had a problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to. If there's an insider outsider threat, such a program protection uh

agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not uh hesitate twice to neutralize insider outsider threats. Uh just like whistleblowers we know today face reprisals, right? Uh David Gush has faced reprisals. I know individuals who have had pensions threatened, um, threatened with inappropriate, uh, stuff on their computers, really disgusting, uh, graphic stuff that is just abhorrent to think about. And so, it just stands to reason if if somebody is a direct threat to a a program protection structure that they might be taken out. >> Yeah. I sometimes wonder if there's some

there was a huge uh controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters. Uh Rodri Castle specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and an anthrax booster. So weird that right after his experience of this this team and this triangle likely man-made triangle, he's given another booster. Uh same with way, same with Herrera. >> Anthrax booster. >> Yeah. So weird. >> What prompted me on this is >> you saw some sensitive technology. Now you need to be protected from anthrax. >> Yeah. which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with like we who's

talking about anthrax >> right what was interesting to me is initially it was I was um Roger Castle that said this he was like yeah afterwards I was given an anthrax booster and then I was talking to Mike Carrera about his encounter and he said oh I was just given an anthrax booster unprompted this was like months after >> and this is like a prophylactic where if you came across anthrax presumably you'd have the immune defense for it or something it's like a COVID booster but for anthrax or like >> Yeah. And then I I made that connection. I was in North Carolina sitting across from Jonathan Wagan sharing a meal and

he's talking about his encounter. I love Jonathan Wagan by the way. One of the greatest guys I know >> and he talks about just completely unprompted. Yeah. And you know afterwards we were given an anthrax booster. Speaking of Jonathan Wagan, I cannot express to you how much I I dislike the fellow Marine sergeants he was with during his encounter. They threw him under the bus and sold him out. Well, let's get into the core details of because you just came out with a a video maybe a couple months ago that or a few months ago that was one of the best I think most important uh just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan Wagant and yeah what a

fascinating story. So yeah tell us about >> I think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well. >> Jonathan Wagant uh USMC Lance Corporal 1997 sent to Peru Operation Laser Strike which is a counter narcotics operation. uh narco planes shoot them down, get drugs out of Colombia, Bolivia, uh Peru, entering US airspace. He is told at one point that there's a down friendly or or foreign plane. No big deal. So, he and a troop of 8 to 10 Marines, including Sergeant Atkins and Sergeant Allen's uh

trek down to where this aircraft crashed. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a a clearing which in a basically a cliff face. There's an enormous egg-shaped, teardropshaped craft embedded in the cliff face. Um, the craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back. Wiggant guesses to this day this was due to a Peruvian Hawkman 23 uh missile system. There's seemingly a field around the craft. You know, it's kind of silvery metallic, but around the craft there's this swirling field similar to what Dylan Borland said about the mech

lava-like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft. This was a purplish greenish like oil on water, the mother of pearl effect. There was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down. Um, and there seemed to be a hatch open with what's appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers. This was part of >> Did it look like a human arm? Did it look like a reptile gray alien? It just looked like an arm hanging out >> with four fingers. >> Yeah. And >> this was actually one of the things that Steven Greer cut out of their year 2000

>> But that's part for the course for Greer, right? We can think of Brad Sorenson in the 1988 Fluxliner incident at the Norton Air Force Base Air Show where in 1990 uh Brad Sorenson admitted to aviation weekend space technology senior editor Bill Scott. The entire incident was real. Everything happened the flux liners, the copycat vehicles and and and Greer and his cronies stonewalled this interview. >> So crazy. It's if you really want disclosure and you're talking about about a guy who, you know, shows up, you know, at Edwards, was it Edwards Air Norton Air close down now near Air Force

Plant 42. >> That's right. And and then he's shown some back of the house show and then he sees an alien reproduction three alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever and you see video of it. Like that's that's such an important testimony and um and then he's sort of like, you know, goes dark and he's like, you know, really mean to all the UFO researchers so many death threats. >> It's crazy. So then you have Steven Gre is the one guy who's sitting on like you know like really crazy you know testimony from him and he he what where

is that like did you destroy it or like >> I don't it was >> where's the evidence? >> So I think this was found between 2017 and 2020 2019 or 2020. >> Okay. Uh, one of Greer's cronies, a a pretty respected and famous researcher, compiled a bunch of documents on this and I think pride the interview from Bill Scott and they just him and the Greer team just put this all in a PDF uh non OCR, so non-archable PDF and just posted it on the DPI archive as Norton

Air Force Base internal. So, this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to to Greer's public archive. This is like a 200page PDF and I I read through the whole thing because I was doing a I I was absorbing as much Mcandalish as much >> audio associated with it. >> It's a written thing from Bill Scott, but there's also handwritten notes between Bill Scott. >> So they did publish this? >> they didn't publish it. >> they just made it internal. >> I tried to reach out to Bill Scott, but he had a heart attack, so he's in poor >> Oh jeez. >> So I haven't heard from him. I'd like to >> He's like aviation week.

>> Yeah. And space technology senior editor. Uh, and of course I've I've tried to kind of uh run a bit of a gambit with Brad saying, "Hey, I I like I've seen this interview. I know you've you've seen it and just get more death threats, but you know, but but the the circling back to way gant because I that's so I think that's so productive in how we can talk about crash retrieval teams, but it just seems like every now and then Greer weirdly obuscates some data, including critical testimony. I mean, the biologics being present at Jonathan Wan's retrieval encounter is >> Uh because as he gets close to the craft, as it's dripping this clear,

but one of them, um, I emailed from my uapgrmail.com email. It's that's not my name or anything like that, um, asking for comment, and they responded, "Hello, my full name." So, they're trying to be like a trying to big bro me a little bit, be a little bit intimidating, saying like, I know who you are. >> Anyway, they doxed you in their >> Correct. Uh, so that's not cool and that's why I don't like them. and they've also thrown him under the bus. One of them specifically said, "Oh, no, Jonathan Wayan's just crazy. It's just not true." But the the most important part, uh, in my opinion, um, is when

Wayan and the other Marines leave the clearing, they're immediately intercepted by, uh, between 8 and 12 operators in all black, US Army helmets. That's kind of an important detail. All black, no insignia, no name tags, uh, held at gunpoint. Whilst these men are being detained, um, two US Army CH47 helicopters land. Out of the helicopters come a team in MOP gear, missionoriented protective posture. Just think hazmat gear. You know, if you think back to the 1965 Kexsburg, Pennsylvania crash, all the witnesses on on SE scene said they saw

people in what they called moon suits >> arrive and but these people are wearing DOE insignia and some of them have DOE rain jackets. Uh, Wayant tries to resist. he gets the crap beaten out of him and um he's taken and and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats of of of that he's going to be killed and all that stuff. But so that crash retrieval team that is really important. The people in DOE uh that is highly likely the department of energy nuclear emergency support team DOE nest. DOE nest is a DOE

NSA. NSA again is the DOE semi-autonomous agency. The National Nuclear uh Security Administration support team. They're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBR&E chemical biological radiological nuclear high yield explosives specifically dealing with nuclear stuff around the world. Uh this team has their own private jets of course which is also really weird detail. That guy u I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the NTR has stated for some rapid reaction events

they would hop on a little private jet. >> Uh so the DOE nest has their own private jets. DOE NEST derives its authority from where else? The 1954 atomic energy >> So DOE Nest operates under that authority. So they can kind of use the same classification systems. um to do, you know, whatever the the heck they want. Uh >> so how did they cuz I think of OGA, Office of Global Access as being this kind of rapid response team. Are they coordinating with >> DOA or logistics coordinator? So think about like the NGA as a combat support agency. Um they're pro them and the NRO

they're providing intelligence uh actionable information and so forth. The CIA is just the coordinator. So in all likelihood what but this is before >> the OGA is under CIA. >> Yeah. And this is before the OGA existed, right? But in all likelihood, let's say Jonathan Wagan's encounter occurred in 2004 just for a mind exercise. The CIA OA would have likely contracted the US Army 160th SOAR Nighthawks uh specifically first battalion, which is the uh US Army's basically helicopter regiment uh that supports J-C operations to utilize their

CH47s for this retrieval operation. OJ would have said, "Hey, we need this Nest team, whether they're NEST or whether they're just retrieval operators using Nest and using the 1954 atomic energy agreement as a shield. We need those guys." And then they would also um coagulate and get the the tier one adjacent likely US Army Delta in this case um folks to to get to the retrieval >> So then, yeah, what ends up happening to Want? So he's he's basically beat up. He's put in isolation and and then he's given an anthrax shot as you mentioned

sent back to Cherry Point. >> After a while, Sergeant Atkins, Sergeant Allens get mad at him if they try and talk to him. Uh the Marines treat him like crap. Uh so he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him. >> Poor guy, man. So messed up. And you see it in his face. He looks haunted. He's looks haunted. Yeah. >> So before he started recording and so forth, he was like trembling. >> It it still affects him deeply to this day to speak about. I can only imagine. >> And it took it took months to get him on

camera. He does not he does not want to be on camera. He lives a private life. He he has a beautiful family. He uh works with rescue dogs a lot. Great guy, pure heart. And u >> it's been terrible for him. So that DOE Nest though, I I think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material, FII, transclassified foreign nuclear information, and now Nest. Yeah. Uh I think Nest is likely used at uh abroad and or KONIS and OKONOS outside KONIS continental United States retrieval operations. The DOE and/NSA employ two

other agencies I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations or passing recovered UFO materials between US national labs here in the continental United States. This would be DOE SRT, special response team, which is um sort of a a federal unit, a federal protective force that has arrest on-site authority within the the US. Um, these are the guys that safeguard nuclear material. These are the guys that safeguard Sandia and National Labs. And then the DOE, NSA, NNSA, OST or Office of Secure Transportation. These are the

guys that drive the big rigs that transport the uh the materials. Now, the common thing between all three of these agencies, Nest, SRT, and OST, these are not comprised of uh of of DoD employees. These are comprised of contractors. >> All three of them are comprised of contractors. For example, Sandia has designed the big rigs that OST uses. But that's not the point. The contractors involved are Sandia, >> Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, Rathon, >> and our former good friend, now part of

Amentum, EGNG. >> EGNG, of course, is is the company that allegedly hired Bob Lazar to work out at Area 51 S4. EG&G uh was of course spearheaded by Donald Kerr, of course, of the NRO. and EGNG, one of the senior special projects guys is one of the people or Alfred O'Donnell is one of the individuals who told um George Knap that uh there were was a recovered saucer held at an Area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the 19 >> and this is crazy because Alfred O'Donnell was also Annie Jacobson's

source and she goes on Lex Freriedman and she goes I was told on his deathbed Alfred O'Donnell told me you know was she that was a big source for her book Area 51 where she was basically given exclusive early access post Bob Lazar, nobody really knew anything about Area >> and she's saying that >> her source Alfred O'Donnell tells her that what did she say exactly about Roswell that it was these like >> pro pro you know pro progeria >> mangled twins mangled twins

>> from Joseph Mangle at the behest of Joseph Stalin >> once it was determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed crashed and it had, you know, people inside of it. They were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens. The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about and if it was possible for us to have the same

program. This according to the source right now that source is Al Oddonnell who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed, wired and fired 186 nuclear weapons. >> That's harder to believe than aliens to be quite honest. >> Right. It's listening to George not talk about this. You can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent many >> because he has the same source as her and Alfred O'Donnell told him that it's >> and he also has that source.

>> Uh there was George Knob stated that um there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of EG&G Edgarton German and Greer for one of them to meet with him Dick Damato, you know, Dick Damato of of the I think he was he was SSCI, right? He was kind of in charge of of probing saps and stuff and Alfred O'Donnell to talk about recovered UFOs. And this was sometime in the '90s. And when they got to this meeting, the subject of UFOs was off the table. And this was the turning point for Alo Donnell. He would never speak about it again. What's what's what's really interesting though is that

Alo Donald apparently said to George Knap that in uh 19 the early 1950s, 1954 to be exact, that the recovered saucer was kind of transferred into uh Area Area 51 adjacent site. Uh conventionally you would think that that is because Area 51 was supposedly built in 1954 established in 1954. Even though there's strong arguments that uh underground sites near Area 51 existed far before that with the borax mines. I'm of a different mind. I think that craft was moved in 1954 because the 1954 atomic energy agreement gave expanded powers to

government-owned contractor operated laboratories like Sandia and so forth to house the craft. And thus 1954 resembles a turning point when DOE uh FFRDC's and NNSA which was established in the year 2000 started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves especially on the the Nevada test site in uh NTR Nevada test and training range. There's a series of photographs in the national archives ranging from 1972 to at that time 1992 before uh Martin Marietta purchased Sandia back in 1993. uh but and and now it exists like 2012

but it was uh 20,000 plus EG&NG Nevada test site and Sandia operations all across the Nevada test site. So many photos of underground stuff weird computer control room. So that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw uh saw a lot of these sorts of of projects being moved into government owned contractor operated hands which that's further supported by um there is a a former New Mexico state rep Jay Andrew Kner. M >> this is like a proto grush. >> Nobody speaks about this and it's

insanely interesting and I can speak about so 2002 or 2004 second annual crash retrieval conference. Linda Molton How says, "Hey, I'm going to present this test." I personally don't think of her as too credible of a source. Uh so I >> she's broken a lot of >> she's broken a lot of stories. Right. >> But with some sensationalism sometimes I I contacted Jay Andrew Kissner myself to confirm if if he did this or not. >> He's still alive. >> Correct. He doesn't really want to talk. >> Just like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk. They >> And he was a congressman or senator.

>> He was a he was a rep for New Mexico. >> And so in 1994, 1995, he conducted a series of interviews with firsthand legacy people all across the board. Office of Naval Research, Air Force, etc. Um, and basically starting in 1947, there was some crash craft, Vanavar Bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth. And >> he says all this, >> it's crazy. numerous scientific agencies were involved. The AFSWP, which would later become Ditra, was involved. And that in the early 1950s, there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to

their files into Roswell. So that's a really interesting rabbit hole as well. >> Steven Schiff I think is on record saying like complaining about this. >> Yes. He says that the records were like uh rampant or like inappropriately destroyed all that good stuff. >> So crazy. It seems like the mid1 1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause UFO legacy programs to reorganize themselves to hide behind this special access program oversight committee special or senior review group. >> Makes sense. Interesting. So that was when this reorg happens. Okay. >> 1950s. Okay.

>> And so yeah, again we talked about why the national labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff. Um I've talked about it before. It's another individual that needs to undergo further vetting u because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that begs more questions. But he has stated he has worked under the Y12 complex which houses Oak Ridge on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of two recovered uh non-human saucer >> Whoa. And this is a current guy that you're in touch with >> as of 18 months ago. >> 18 months. 24 months like within the

last one to >> And he's saying that that Oakidge houses this program that does like you know kind of material analysis on on UFO >> Yeah. So things further need to be vetted with him. So again, this, you know, if you're listening to this interview, this shouldn't be the takeaway. This should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already, like, hey, maybe this is possibly true, but there's some interesting stuff there. Uh, two recovered discs. Um, he states that MITER and Battel are the two primary folks involved with this, and that the DOE, OICI, Office of Intelligence and Counter Intelligence, is the are the

people that kind of um run the show. >> Have you tried to stress test what he said or corroborate it through independent channels? a lot of it checks out and a lot of a lot some of him is a little weird. Okay. >> So, I think at the very least he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the Y12 complex on on these stuff, specifically DOEIC guys. >> Uh but I I do think there's truth to the story that under the Y12 complex there exists this u legacy program. What's interesting he says that he this program studies the skin of craft. We've started

to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non-human craft. Skin of craft. Why skin of craft? I think there's a there's going to be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in in UFO crash retrieval, specifically eggs, the eggshaped craft, whether unmanned or manned, is that there's seemingly layers of of of of skin on the craft, inner layers and outer layers separating like the bulkhead from the the outer layer of the craft. My mind is drawn to a the U NTR operator I spoke of. He spoke about a a cracked egg once that he was on

something like that but uh he gave a lot of interesting insights into stuff like project twinkle which was of course a Sandia based Z division investigation into green fireballs over New Mexico which Lincoln Leaz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth >> and I think there was some obstruction there as far as the Project Twinkle Records, you know, being being shown because Lincoln Le Pa, who is a, you know, kind of a University of New Mexico meteor expert expert, not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background, came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track, you

cracked. There seemed to be layers of skin and like separated bulkheads and almost inside like a a visibly light compartment sort of like an egg yolk. But that that skin, those layers is very intriguing. Um, >> everybody, including our our good friend, one of the best people I know, Chris Ramsey, is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower. I I actually think there's a lot of validity to that, and I think that might be legit. But there back in 2024, there was another sort of Reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I I think is worthy of revisiting. >> I think the title of the post, now

deleted, was just ex OGA contractor. OJ is not Office of Global Access here. It's government other government agency implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor or stuff. This guy was in the 24th uh STS which is a tier one unit in JC from the Air Force. Uh he talks about after his service in the STS like 16 years or so. He is just doing contracting work for an OGA probably the CIA or something and and he staged okonis outside the United States and and I'll send you the link for this because I really recommend people read it. It's a really juicy really juicy testimony

that doesn't go overboard which is interesting. and he sees his old troop chief, uh, troop chief. There's a couple C130s that fly up to the base. It's all hush- hush. Nobody talks about it. He sees these people just get into US Army CH47s, likely 160th sore for rapid reaction teams. And then no talk about this, completely hush- hush. About uh 6 to 10 hours later, that team returns and he sees his old troop chief. This is very strange to this uh this testimony, this poster, because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia doing a

fantasy football draft days prior. The troop chief looks super disturbed, super tired, a little out of it. Um but won't really say what happened. Uh the the poster of this kind of pokes around. What were these guys doing? The the term crash retrieval came up and he was kind of chewed out, reamemed for it. A year later, he meets up with his troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and and and says what had happened. He was on a parallel, not directly J- Soc, but a parallel tier one uh unit that was siloed under its own umbrella authority,

not responsible for traditional SOCOM channels that was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles. In the span of four years, he had only done three retrieval incidents, two of which were completely unknown to him. He had no idea what they were, but this new one really shook him to the core. The team was taken to a retrieval site and there they found an egg embedded in mud. Uh the egg there was no like brush fire. There was no uh you know it explosive residue. It seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space and this egg had landed in and this large

silvery metallic egg I I think a larger than the size of a couple SUVs was cracked and inside what else is there but layers of of craft seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used. What's interesting is this this guy said um the air felt soupy. >> The air felt soupy. Recall when Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley, he felt the like the he felt like charged air, right? So it feels like there's felt like thunder. It felt like a like electricity like run through his body or something. Yeah. >> Just like Jonathan Wagant said that the

air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft. >> And the guy didn't know what to do. They're just there to secure the LZ. Um, but it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say so souls on board. But it's just a it's a really tame uh testimony that I encourage people to to look at. It it comports with what I know about manned unmanned egg retrievals. It's very interesting. It's so fascinating. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, there's so many places to take this, but you mentioned in in 2003 the OGA, you

know, under uh the CIA gets created, the Office of Global Access, and I think there's a Daily Mail article that outlines, you know, Chris Sharp. >> Yeah, Chris Sharp again. Okay, there you go. um all over the world, you know, they're kind of, you know, keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes. >> And you know, I think there's a rumor in because you mentioned, you know, if this was if the wank crash were after 2003, Jacock would have been involved, the army would have been involved. Uh, I believe there's a rumor of a a dog fight between Loied crash retrieval team and a

JSOW crash retrieval team in 2004 competing over like trying to retrieve >> Yeah. old Sentinels of Ether. Huh. The Jake Barber classic. I I mean I've I've heard that that checks out with the details of it and why certain elements in Sentinels of Ether which was like a Romana clay written by Jake Barber under a pseudonym right to try and trick Doppser in an intriguing play. >> I think there's details there that are more important. Uh for example I think the location of Coyame Mexico is really

important. I wouldn't be surprised if there's like >> explain that. >> So just context for the audience basic context. So Jake Barber obviously, you know, very important, you know, UFO whistleblower came out uh earlier this year uh through Ross Coloulthart, me, a couple other people, and um said that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft on this sort of, you know, generic range sort of, you know, California test range. >> Did you see this egg? >> I saw it absolutely. >> What did it look like? Um, it's probably 20 ft plus or minus I don't know uh 10%

from my point of view. You know, I was 150 ft from it. Had a 150 foot long line that night [laughter] >> uh in a couple of different instances. Well, I guess one was an egg, one was a, you know, an eightgon craft. Um, said a lot of interesting things. Also clearly was holding back, you know, in a lot of ways. And but one of the interesting things he said is to get initially get some information out through Doppser, you know, um which is, you know, you need to clear everything you you let out through the DoD to let it out. He said

he sort of tricked them by writing a sci-fi, you know, book and and I think the first chapter is out and it's sentinels of ether. Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of hardcore UFO researchers have speculated on this, you know, first chapter of this book because they think a lot of details might comport with the truth. Well, the most interesting part to me is that I I think there's a message there that these retrieval assets, the guys that we gant encountered, the guys that Roger Castle encountered, and the guys that Michael Herrera encountered are not afraid to conduct blue-on-blue violence. These

will these guys will kill American servicemen if need be for for their mission directive. I think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe Jake Barber is trying to bring attention to if this is is not a real event which it very well could be. Additionally, I think there's interesting data there to suggest that, you know, maybe there's an underground US rapid reaction facility in Coyame, Mexico in the north part of Mexico and that maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains or built underground and there's uh various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to obiscate these sites. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, look, you have to

look no further than like Cheyenne Mountain complex. You know, we have and then you you always bring up, you know, the solder, you know, deep underground military base. You have a great video on this subject. >> That's not a conspiracy like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the US. We have underground >> Deep underground military bases absolutely exist. They have been a a huge focus of the US DoD and US Army Corps of Engineers since 1948 when we took a bunch of Nazi scientists including Xavier Dorsch head of the Tat organization to work under an air

material command uh underground underground laboratory and underground systems project. Deep underground military bases are extremely real. You have to look no further than the Loheed Helenale or Northrup Tahhan RCS facilities which were built primarily underground to hide from Soviet uh Soviet ISR in in our denied airspace. These places are built under Additionally, if if you're housing a UFO or just a conventional SAP or interesting technology or even like a recovered Russian MIG, you're not going to keep that in a hanger. You're not going to keep that above ground. You're going to keep that in in an underground

And I would say that there is a very strong argument that can be made. Early on, there were uh possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented in Nazi Germany under the Todd organization that would connect Berlin to France and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like 5 minutes. Uh there's the 1972 uh Rand theoretical study, the very high-speed transit system, which talks about connecting uh similar places. Uh there's magv systems, even Loheed Martin was super into mag lev stuff in the year 2000s. And then of course you you can start to rationalize this >> mag lev levitating magnets sort of like

like high speed bullet train style tech. >> And then uh and then like tunnel boring machines TBMs how these things could be used by the Bureau of Reclamation as offshoot programs to start cing out these these tunnels. I implore people go look at those Sandia NTS Sandia lab photos and just look at the how large some of these underground tunnels were cred out under the Nevada test site just for experiments just for various technical experiments >> and so many of these whistleblower testimonies like a guy you broke who then we did a show with later is Randy

Anderson talks about being at uh Naval Service Warfare Crane he's taken down in some elevator goes deep below you know the ground and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to what is it off world technologies division sees a a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and a levitating sphere. >> It's fascinating and a lot of a lot of stories include that include going deep underground. It seems to seems like >> what frustrates me about Randy specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like oh and kind of memeing

on him uh trolling him saying why would there be a sign that says off-world technologies division. I'd be remiss if I didn't show you this. >> Yeah. um at the at the Dougway proving ground. The Dougway proving ground is the area of experimental land is larger than the US state of Rhode Island. Uh it's it's like the NTR where it's one of the largest non contiguous airspaces for special projects in the entire United States. It houses two major range and test facility bases. The um the uh Utah

test and training range, UTR. The Dougway proving ground houses the southern range of the UTTR and the West Desert Test Center out of Army AT. By the way, if um if if if anybody's listening who's interested in Battel, go look at who spearheads the West Desert Test Center, Mr. Ryan W. Harris, who has a background of working for projects for the Ditra and Battel. So, go start looking at that a little bit. >> But at the West, >> Battel co-manages Dougway proving grounds. Is that >> they do a lot of work there on on CBRN stuff, specifically biological stuff.

That's why there's so many stories about uh specifically biologics being held at at at Dougway proving ground. And speaking of, this is what is uh this is in the cafeteria at the West Desert Test Center. And I I'll send you that so you can put it. >> Yeah, we'll pop it up. Whoa. >> They do this stuff right in your face. >> That's so crazy. And this looks so realistic, too. >> And you got the three fingers. >> Really trippy. >> I can't tell if it has if there's a thumb there, if it's just three fingered. Wow. As far as Dougway goes, uh there's there's one guy I've spoken

to and he's in my Dougway video who's had a a firsthand encounter at Dougway Proving Ground. Goes by the name. Yeah. Goes by the name >> firstand encounter uh with a being or with a craft undergoing undergoing uh various testing mechanisms. So >> he was a contractor for I can't oh gosh the names escaping me. But not like a a not like a Locky Martin, just like a standard contractor that does operations and maintenance at at Dougway. And in the Avery section, which is right by the uh 308 Range Squadron, I want to say,

uh Induc personnel and taken to you know the another area ditto where he's kind of debriefed and and threatened and and since that he met with one of the chief scientists at Dougway. This is a guy who has a very real name. I'm I've I know the name now and I'm I'm trying to track this guy down, but this is a real person who informed this individual MS of the massive stiff or subterranean facility below Dougway, including the the specific entrance, which I'll I'll send you a picture of, which is just west of Granite Peak, which has all sorts of weird radar rays by the 388th Range

Squadron and um uh to the uh northwest of Dougway German Village. It's just a tiny It's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere. And apparently this is an elevator down if if anybody because it's in vogue right now. If anybody's watching Stranger Things um in the newest season of of Stranger Things where 11 is taken down to the secret lab, the secret facility, it's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the desert. Similar thing. What's an interesting detail is that for apparently for above ground testing, uh a bunch of portaotties are sometimes

moved to this region. super weird detail because another contractor I spoke to out at Dougway who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022 I want to say would talk about it's so strange sometimes in the middle of nowhere in Dougway there will just be a bunch of random portaotties so it seems like there's this weird connection maybe there's above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets uh that of course you know facilities are brought out for people this guy the second contractor he maintained relationships with a bunch of quote unquote grey beards at Dougway he guessed these guys are Battel but they

trust this guy? >> The the the MS guy who saw the craft. Absolutely. The second guy who's a contractor. I don't really have a reason not to to trust him yet. He has supplied me with uh his photo ID badge of his contractor time at at Dougway. I've shown me direct evidence that he worked out there. I' I've I have no reason not to trust that guy. >> Wow. [sighs and gasps] And and Doug Way for just basic context for the audience. So it's in it's in Utah, right? And it they call it Area 52 and it's sort of dubbed that. >> They call it Area 52, but I don't like

when people call it Area 52. Area 52 is the tonap test range. Ton of test range is literally named Area 52. >> Oh, interesting. And then Dougway, are there rumors that some assets were moved from Area 51 in the '90s? There >> starting in 1990s, because there was a large article, uh, I can't, it might have been Popsai or Pop Mechanics. It was a huge expose on like Area 51 and how assets might have been moved over to Area 52, this mysterious new place in Dougway. What's interesting about that article is I have some pictures of it in one of my videos. The article has a

bunch of pictures of like I think like either SR71 or F17A Nighthawk, but also has a sticky note on it that says like call Bobby Ray Inman. It's super it's a super weird meta thing. Whoa. But even like Edgar Fuche, whose primary testimony in 1998 revolves around um the TR3B talks about hey you know a lot of projects were moved out to Dougway proven route. It makes sense uh le more less high-profile but I I but what's weird to me is that the Nevada test and training range would have better infrastructure to house such programs. As far as I understand, there's numerous

sites across the NTR that can house craft underground facilities, uh, even helicopters, possibly even hanger bays built into the side of mountains or floors. Do you think that some of these defense bases are colllocated with, and this is going to sound really trippy, but like natural portals or something? And the reason I ask this is because Area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada Test Site or next to the Nevada Test Site. Nevada test site was the site

Office of Special Investigations, you know, CIA, like they're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear >> And then you have the Jake Barber testimony where it's like there's some sort of mental connection, you know, with the UFO. And so if I were studying UFOs, I would look for places that are weird to begin with, like Skinwalker Ranch. And maybe Skinwalker Ranch is like the limited hangout version of this, you know, and I would put my defense stuff there, and I would try to

engage in the weird UFO [ __ ] where it's already kind of happening. >> Well, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Jake Barber talk about some of the like light orbs or weird non really physically identifiable craft he'd see over the range would like almost phase into mountains or like disappear in rock formations. >> Yes. And you have uh Ross Colthart doing his investigative research at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. We have all this weird stuff. I think it's like supposedly associated with the university, but you have all these kind of armed guards there, you know, and

it's and you and they and multiple people in the area see the crafts going into this mountain and Sentinels of Ether talks about that too, Jake Barber's book. So, I'm wondering if >> there's this weird colllocation of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place. Let's study it and instantiate it, you know, and and and and house it in some official defense >> Yeah. I think I think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely and they probably all are a thing. You house these sites by already weird locations with activity. You know,

maybe if that 4chan whistleblower is to be believed and there's places within the Bahamas that that large hamburger shaped mother ship that 3D prints UFOs to spec houses. Gosh, I don't know. >> they say the Bahamas, >> I think. Yeah, like Bermuda, I think, is an area of frequence. Well, gosh, it would make sense to have >> Well, you have magnetic anomalies there. A tech is in the Bahamas weapons >> Makes sense to have that there. >> And then that's that's one thing that's probably true. Two, that's probably true. Put these installations in the middle of nowhere so you can bring the triangles out where people aren't around

it's near like it it's very close to the Antelope Valley and and in in Los Angeles there's numerous FFRDC's, numerous locations and DoD defense laboratories. I would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there. How many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangers across the United States? >> I don't know if if you look to the what uh Barber spoke about before he went public, he would say over his specific range 1 to two a year. That number seems high for me. It seems that seems quite high. Maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative vehicles to test

their hardness to the dog whistle and the uh weird >> or one to two a year might include just random material that isn't like a whole >> or intake from other locations that they h can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there >> and how put off I think stated a number on Joe Rogan. I think he lit >> you say like 12 to 15 I think something like that. >> I think that's low. >> That seems a little low to me too. >> 40 to 50. >> Okay. maybe 50 to 100 because I do think there's validity to the the US has constructed offensive weaponry against

UFOs. You know, if we look at the Aztec crash case, you Chris Ramsey and me also all think extremely highly of. >> Yes. Uh one of the prevailing theories is that the uh the lashup radar network which was constructed over uh New Mexico to protect against Soviet bomber attacks which by the way Jay. Andrew Kner spoke about high-powered radar facilities messing with the UFOs and in his 1994 disclosures. But one of the prevailing Aztec theories is that these super high-owered really weird radar networks, there might have been highintensive microwave systems that messed with the

craft and brought it down. And then in uh fast forward to 1983, I think there's an argument that could be made that in the uh strategic defense initiative or Star Wars program under Ronald Reagan that the lethality and target hardening program or the particle beam weapons program were meant to be space-based systems that utilized microwave weaponry to to shoot down UFOs. Well, this was the weirdest part of the Malmgrren story that I, you know, again, I hold him in super high esteem and I I think there's a lot of weirdness around. I feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out to be

honest. They changed his Wikipedia page. >> Yeah, that Yeah, that was ugly. the the the blog post was like we asked XYZ person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again, which is like you're talking about like this knock who like is was clearly like I I don't doubt his connections for a second. The guy was connected at extremely elite levels. He knew a lot of very interesting people and I think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in. >> So I think that was kind of kind of um you know BS. So, but the weirdest part

of Malgrim's testimony, which didn't even occur directly with me, he was apparently again final few days on his deathbed speaking to Pipa, his daughter, >> and he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving or one of the surviving alien beings from Roswell, which is fascinating, like like a recorded interview with this being >> and that the being suggested that we use like high our radar to take

out crafts. >> And then you get into these weird like are we in some sort of like are we being used in some sort of like as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extraterrestrial beings. >> And he was involved I believe in the strategic defense initiative. Yeah. And and if you look at Bluegill Triple Prime >> it was kind of a proto SDI strategic defense initiative thing that he was doing. It was missile defense. Missile defense was this big issue at the time because you couldn't really kinetically

like, you know, we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like, you know, like like Russia Soviet missiles. And so, uh, you know, in in that case, it was like this X-ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles. Really interesting. There's this like Rand Corporation paper, I think, kind of scoping it out before they actually executed on it. uh in ' 63 >> and SIC was up to the the gills working on on those programs as well for SDI. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were one of the largest contractors, right, for SDI.

>> What's interesting to me is that there there are some theories out there that the actual idea for SDI originated with Eisenhower, not Reagan. >> And then of course what was established under Eisenhower? Well, the NRO. You know, there's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the NRO up there with their taking over the Corona satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites, they immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs. >> Yeah. Well, now you have Beatatric Bale coming out, this peer-reviewed paper. It's this is wild to me because it's

like you academia has nothing to say and and kudos to, you know, Brian Keading who's actually usually kind of more on the anti-UFO side, but he's like, you know, this has to be contended with. You have Sabina Hosenfeld. There are a few people with real credentials and, you know, larger platforms saying Beatatric Variel, who's Stockholm University, you know, uh, astronomer with actually a physics background as well. She the Palomar plates. Palmar is this observatory in um California. It was the most prominent observatory in use in the

was was at Harvard with uh uh Donald Menzel and and writes about this. And by the way, Donald Menzel not only held extremely high clearances in just about every agency you could you know name, he was rumored to be, you know, Majestic 12. Um I believe Kennedy while he was at Harvard had an interest in like astrophysics and so he had some you know relationship with Don Menzel but Don Menzel was also head of the and I always botched this but the the the earliest version of NIST so it's like the the

Bureau of like standards in the US so it's like like you know the the the organization that like creates like the the uh you know encryption standards and like you know like the you know decides that we're not going on the metric system or whatever like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of and he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable Dor at Hofflight. So yeah, it's weird. And there were only like there there weren't that many uh observatories in, you know, at the time

>> Yeah. Most credible. What would you say those are? Your top five? >> I would say I would say put Aztec up there for sure. You have five witnesses. You have the lashup radar system. you have, you know, clear obstruction with Silus Newton and and Leo Gabauer and stuff. So, I'd put that up there. I would now put Magenta uh up there. And I don't know, you know, depending on when this comes out, I'll either tease here now or this will will have come out already, but Maronei >> who invented the radio. Yeah. This is like getting like Oenheimimer's like,

you know, offspring saying that he worked on UFOs. Marone's grandson, I was able to track him down and get an interview. He's a prince, Prince Maronei. And he was like, "My grandfather was on cabinet RS33, this cabinet with Mussolini, and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue." In 1933, the Italian government set up uh this uh group, the secret research uh 33 cabinet where Maronei was the uh chair was the president and Enrico Ferimi was the vice president and they made some searches and studies on this

phenomenon because 1953 uh they say that in VZA north of Italy there were some apparitions of so-called UFOs. >> in Magenta, Italy or do you know where specifically? Uh, V. It's north uh, east Italy. Northeast. Yes, V. It's north of >> Uh, in Lombardi and between Lumbodi and Venetian land. >> He couldn't go much deeper than that, but that's fascinating. You would now have archival, you know, stuff that corroborates RS33 existing and, you

know, so, so I think the mag and then you have David Grush who to me I hold in highest esteem when it comes to a UFO whistleblower. So, I I would put magenta up there. Now, um I really like the '9s Brook Haven crash. I think that's really fantast. Yeah, it's a great case. >> There's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that that, you know, I think is very strong. And then I I to me it pattern matches because they have Cosmatron, the particle accelerator. I think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs. So, I think that's up there for

me. I would say Kexsburg with the Eric Walker, you know, connection I think is really fascinating. Um, and then as a final one, I don't know. Uh, one. I don't think there's a ton of evidence. Yeah, I don't think there's a ton of evidence. I mean, that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction >> Uh, I don't know. What would you say beyond beyond that? >> Uh, definitely uh Aztec and Magenta. I'm right there with you. Uh, Kexsburg as well. I love the 1974 Coyame New Mexico

crash. There's not a ton of supporting evidence, but the story there if true is very very disturbing and also pretty interesting just the way that apparently the DEB report is a CIA directed like logistics plan like the OGA would do to uh gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the CF craft as well as providing overhead intelligence of the Mexican team trying to get the craft. That's a great case. Apparently the Mexican team was either killed by a CBR or by a like leak within the craft or the Americans killed him, which is far more likely in my opinion. Yeah, >> maybe that ties over in the Sentinels of

Ether. Uh, we'll kill other soldiers in Coyame, Mexico. >> Why? Oh, interesting. Yeah, you might have been writing about that cryptically. I'm going to I'm going to, by the way, I'm going to go with five as way because I >> Yes. Okay. I was going to say Yeah, up there. Wan's up there. >> Uh, there's a ton of rich stories alive. Like that's rare. I'm thinking about like one through four. You don't have anybody alive talking about the retrieve like Wigant. I mean, that seems like super. You have a person who was part of the retrieval and then,

>> you know, I think that the Jake Barber thing is really interesting as well. I just I want more details there. I wish he could I wish he could have shared >> He's said he's held back more than he said, >> which is frustrating. But as a as another one, I'd throw in Kingman, of course, with Dr. Wang. >> Oh, yeah. Kingman. Kingman's a great I would put that up there, too. and how Steinman writes about Wang also being involved with the Aztec crash and how Wang is this figure that you know you can never really track down besides some right pad stuff. He died pretty early

Kingman, Arizona and then he sees like a little being in a in a in a cot or something that >> it's like a makeshift tent that there's a tiny little brownish bean possibly charred and mangled cuz he was sent in to do uh ballistic trajectory analysis. That's right. because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area, but the craft itself wasn't damaged. >> And the craft itself, I think, looked like two pans like fused together. And and so Arthur Stanel, yeah, on record at right Pat and then here's what's really

interesting. Eric Henry Wing is this sort of famed guy who's head of special projects at right right airfield and I believe he studied uh in Vienna with Victor Shaberger. >> Yes, he did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. really interesting this famous kind of Austrian you know naturalist who believed in this impeller propulsion system and had his own flying saucer designs >> and there's this question of like did Eric Henry Wang exist and you have some evidence that maybe he did exist for oh yes he no he he existed he existed if

you look through the DTick the defense technical information center you can find actual um you can find uh old engineering documents with air Henry weighing on it but we might have a kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of Eric Henry Wing at Wright Patterson back in the 1950s. If we can do that, I I think that would be get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name and location and location, that's going to open up new evidence of exploring Wang. >> Big and I was I was maybe playing a little koi. I could say definitively he was real cuz I have a researcher friend

who's in touch with his daughter now. So like yeah, he was he was a real guy. And then here's what's really interesting about that uh uh William Steyman book Aztec. He says uh um that Eric Henry Wang was erased from the internet. He was the only guy that when Steinman because Steinman was a great researcher. He would go knocking on everybody's door and he was trying to figure out what was up with this Eric Henry Wing guy who was head of special projects at Wright Airfield then gets moved to Kirtland Air Force Base >> and he's like who is this guy? >> Yeah. Now Sandia. And so he's like

what's going on with this guy? And he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist like don't look at him. Don't look at him. He goes, "I figured out he reported to a guy named Hak." >> And guess who HK is? >> Yeah, it's Henry A. Kissinger. >> And there was like a source that uh Steman was talking to had information about Wang that went cold on him and >> all that. Well, he showed up Maria Wing, I believe. He he met his wife >> and Maria Wing like Yeah, I think it flipped on him or something. >> Steinman is a treasure. Can we the Aztec

book how Steinman went to Colorado through court records to find out how Gabaua and Silus Newton were were unfairly attacked in their court case is a astonishing. you know, uh, Silus Newton and Leo Gabbau were convicted of fraud for perpetuating a doodlebug device, which has very real, uh, historical significance in anti-marine warfare detection in World War II by, um, spearheaded by Vanavar Bush. But that even in their court case, there was a a a similar not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as cooks and frauds. And

Steinman did all of this. He went through he was also a pioneer um, talking to Eric Walker. He was he was a pioneer on on numerous cases, >> numerous cases. And and even Scully, you know, the case behind the flying saucer, like the, you know, kind of original like archetypal UFO book that that outlines this kind of Aztec crash, >> he was trusted with a lot of like celebrity sort of like really sensitive information. And so whoever Dr. G was this sort of like, you know, um, >> consortium of scientists. >> Yeah, exactly. >> All of whom worked on anti-ubmarine

programs under Vanavar Bush. >> So wild. So wild. Yeah. Scott and Suzanne Ramsay have really they deserve all the credit for digging up this like kind of like short list of like eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in this pseudonym Dr. G. >> And they're getting in touch with with Silus Newton. Silus Newton, by the way, was worth, I don't know if you know this, $20 million at the time. >> Really rich oil man. >> Yeah. So that's like a few hundred million now. >> Yeah. And pro golfer, too. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. It was like a pro or semi-pro

golfer. So, no reason to lie about, you know, no reason to con anybody with a doodle bug. No reason to lie about a UFO crash. Like, >> but also in their court case, uh, Gabbor and and Newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodlebug's efficacy and finding oil deposits under their system. I can't remember the exact acronym. I think it was like MAP or something, but like a magnetic uh resonance thing to to detect detect cavities underground that they actually found success with. >> Yeah. Interesting. Well, I know he was really interested in magnetism. >> Yes. Yeah. Yes. And and uh Silus Newton

in his diaries would talk about Wilbur B. Smith, Canadian radio engineer who spearheaded Canada's first uh project on UFOs who was told by Robert Sarbacher, you know, consultant to the defense research board spearheaded by Vanavar Bush that UFOs existed that their modus operandi was unknown but efforts were going under Vanavar Bush to study them and it was the most highly kept secret in the United States government classified even higher than the Manhattan project. all these sort of interconnected things that are so >> So interesting. I think Yeah. I wonder if one of these people, you know, like

Sarbacher has a son. Yeah. And I wonder if we could get in touch with >> I'd like to I always try and talk to people's kids. Like I've tried to get in contact with Dr. Eric Walker's kids. >> Just no avail. Don't hear anything. >> So what are all of the locations in the US that you think house UFOs? So it seems like if we're looking at the continental United States, there's a there's a big divide, right? There's the there's the west of the country, which has lower population density, which uh seems more suitable to um RDT&E work,

research, development, test, and evaluation. You have massive ranges, Dougway, and the Nevada Test and Training Range on which you could test derivative technologies. If we're looking out east, I of course we talked about the Attek Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Command, which is a Navy major range and test facility base. uh Puxen River as well. Um I think whistleblower Matthew Brown talked about Amentum hangers at at uh at Puxen River housing some anomalous stuff and remember EG&NG eventually transitioned into Puxen River. Wasn't um Sal Py also

strict chain of command of people say legacy programs have no oversight. I disagree completely. I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely strictly managed. And I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangers storing craft. I think it is the FFRDC's because it's that go-k operated governmentowned contractor operated method that you know if crap really hits the fan the USG can take possession of it if it needs to. And you you wouldn't think the DoD or IC would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uh uncontested. But so Pax River uh I'd

imagine MITER has uh quite a bit of involvement out there in Pax River. Uh the big the crown jewel of out east is Crystal City in in Virginia. There was one firsthand uh legacy guy, a friend of mine I was speaking to once and he said that the answer to most of what you're looking for is in Crystal City, Virginia. Really? Crystal City houses eight of 10 of the US's biggest uh defense contractors, numerous FFRDC's. >> Is Crystal City in Arlington or? >> Yeah, near Arlington. Um, and then of course you got that Chantilly region

with the NRO headquarters and SEIC headquarters and and and all that. But I imagine uh I imagine Crystal City is likely where I guess the the the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed, the framework, the agreements, um what contractors are rotated through, what programs are are rotated through, where you know a lot of the bigot list access is is handled. >> And isn't John Peterson based out there the kind of the Arlington Institute? Yeah. Yeah. >> Futuristic studies or whatever.

>> Of course, BDM Mlane was out there where the advanced theoretical physics working group was held and >> interesting. So that's where that group was with Haluto off and Oki Shannon kind of looking into UFOs. >> And then I under Washington DC, the Pentagon, I I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility, not the NMCC, the national something command center, the NMCC. It's not that. It's a it's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon uh that likely houses some sort of of very clandestine

various aspects of legacy programs, so he would know what to lie about in the historical report. >> Yeah. And the I think the larger point is like there's just such a conflict of interest. Like if you have some independent review board like for the people of the US around whether there is non-human intelligence any of this stuff exists. Don't pick the guy who at 17 won a you know an award from the DOE from the department of energy at Brook Haven National Labs and ever since has been doing contract work in that area. Like pick somebody who's going to be

briefed into parts of legacy programs just to know enough to you know obfuscate the report that means was if he lied about Herrera's testimony was did he does he have knowledge of uh direct action crash retrieval personnel? >> Interesting. Yeah. And you have meetings you have pictures of him in like a meeting with Brandon Fugal giving like >> oh the woman you know >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. weird kind of look over his shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him. Yeah. And um you know, so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff, you know, earlier than he likes to admit.

>> And anybody who talks to him says he's >> And he seems like he just um you know, you mentioned this as well in your video. He will adamantly say extraterrestrial. He will never say >> where Oh, yeah. Maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet. >> Yeah. Remember that David Grush B-roll footage with Ross Colt when he speaks about biologics? He says presumably extraterrestrial but not a for sure >> That's why they say non presumably extraterrestrial but not for sure.

>> Yeah. No, I mean I think it's hard to know. I I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth, right? Like they have there's somebody there who like has this core theory of how the world works that is way more accurate than somebody on the outside. I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue for sure and we are a lot of it is worthy of disclosure and this needs to be you know outside of stuff that's like extremely

you know like weaponizable at like low cost or whatever like everything else should be like completely disclosed. It's the nature of reality but like we would still have to piece together the nature of reality. I don't think the government's sitting on that. No, it it seems like their entire, as David Grush says, asymmetrical uh warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance. Yes, that's what they they're not out there uh philosophizing as to like the larger truths of these beings. As speaking of Sean Kurpatre, I'm reminded to when Susan Go was asked if by a foyer researcher or somebody if they could

amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include non-human intelligence, to which she said, "No, you absolutely cannot amend my statement to include we have no evidence of non-human intelligence." What a piece of The woman who controls the lease of Shunk or Patrick. >> Well, if that's not a tell, I don't know what is. Like that's that's crazy. That shows a lot of insecurity, >> right? But we were talking about >> She ran SCOP stuff. >> Yeah. She wrote papers on SCOPS just like Sean Kirkpatre wrote papers on uh influence of people in like social

networks and stuff. It's like social engineering sort of >> just like Arrow hired uh San Corp to which specializes in insider threat protection whistleblower leaks. Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying Sanorp was hired to connect Arrow to subject matter experts. That's not in Sand Corp scope of operations. So I I I'm not sure I believe that. But yeah, Arrow was doing all sorts of dubious activities. Don't don't you find yourself caught though sometimes between these obfiscators of truth who are clearly bad actors like everybody we're just we just mentioned clearly a bad

>> and then some people on the proof side who also seem like they're at times bad >> and so it's like this weird you're like flanked by like bad vibes. >> It's a minefield. >> It's a minefield. and and like and then you ask the question like are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up because you you clearly do have bad actors on both >> I think so. >> Yeah. Controlled disclosure that that's why like if there's one person whose word I would take at face value it would

be David Grush. >> He does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure. He seems uh watching anything with him, you can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates and you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself. Uh kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can, speaking on all aspects of the subject, you know, non-human intelligence, presumably extraterrestrial, uh how these programs are funded and so forth. Well, I think I think on the pro per David Grush, most

and some other staffers and yeah, who uh you know definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from legacy programs to uh Congress so that these guys could show up in skiffs and stuff for sure. And then at the same time there are all sorts of weird, you know, guys who like they pop up in like the pro- UFO world and then they're they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in intel world and you're like >> yeah yeah limited disclosure uh promising researchers and and folks various things and then doing other

things and it's it's just it's it's it's kind of a mess. It's a mess. And all I'm saying is it's like I think it's easy to go after the offiscating guys ad homonym and then it's harder to go after the pro guys ad homonym because like I think both of us are like pro disclosure. Yes. >> And so I'm like if you're going to be like a weirdo in like other aspects of your life but you're like you're pushing like like the nature of reality are the stakes. I don't [ __ ] care about your like other weird [ __ ] I'm not gonna get

and and and as a whistleblower making various assertions that that um that cycle of disclosure is effectively ended with the failure to pass the uh the UAP disclosure act and with with sort of the fourth uh or third in a series of hearings uh on the topic that I I think increasingly have moved the media less and less >> and I think you are going to end up there if you attempt to do the manage the manage disclosure thing is the most

>> exercise and like I think maybe the most telling thing in the the the not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland but the one before that the closed one with like Alzando Avi Loe and Eric Davis Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure which is this logic ical fallacy like how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist? They're obviously going to be managing the process. >> Boy, that event was a mess, was it not? >> That was a total messagraph, the crop circle or whatever.

>> Gosh. Yeah. And yeah, speaking of Eric Davis, it's the same thing. I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence. I I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis memo are very true in in the sense that Thomas Wilson was denied access into uh legacy programs while deputy director of the DIA. But then like I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles. I I think he has as close as we are now told me outright fallacies about that. And whether it's he's just too proud to admit that he does doesn't understand

understand the science or more likely in my opinion it's a classic program protection strategy. I it it it's a it seems like with a lot of the mo most famous characters in in in this sub space their disclosures come with strings attached or some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or halftruth truths. It's interesting also how like certain cases are like like with with Eric Davis he seems like you know I talked to him about the Aztec crash. He's just so dogmatically opposed to that crash >> and if you look at that with an open

mind and first principles in fact I think on the Wikipedia is still Aztec crash hoax. It is like uh you know literally in the name and but then if you look at it with an open mind you meet Scott and Suzanne Ramsey who are these really amazing people in North Carolina independent researchers who have small business and have poured >> I I want to say $600,000 plus into this investigation over decades and they have so much evidence. I mean I went to the crash site with them. >> This thing happened. something happened

there. And >> I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis' part. I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is, but >> but then conversely, he he he also is very pro the 1954 uh Del Rio, Texas crash incident, >> which that's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes there. 1955 Robert Willingham in Del Rio, Texas and the 1954 Del 1950 Del Rio crash which is actually Elindio/g Guerrero, Texas, Mexico, which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower

don't know you know like like even you know even the Lawrence Liverour thing you mentioned like you know maybe that has you know a name attached to it and a guy in you know 1990 or one or whatever that you know came out but It's some of these crashes just feel like really like I you know the magenta thing I now have Marone's grandson but we have no living witnesses of this crash just it's tough with some of these things. >> It's the same thing with Ryan Wood's excellent book Magic Eyes Only. There's really intriguing cases that you know likely have some validity to them, but there's not enough to really sift

through and chew through. There's not enough people to speak to. There's not enough named characters. I mean, I'm sure there's quite a few uh crash retrievals in in Ryan Wood's book, Magic Eyes Only, that are legit. There's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on. >> Yeah, exactly. It's tough. Well, do you think like this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time? Like I guess this brings like this this this other like kind of more like deeper onlogical question of like are

ending up in civilian hands like at some point soon, you know? >> Yeah. So, yeah, I would hope so. I I I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval. Uh, you know, maybe most crash retrievals occur today because the craft are shot down. >> Do you think that's the case? >> I think that it's like it's likely many of them are, but then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left. >> Yeah. for people and why aren't why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth and and then maritime craft

retrievals that only uh you know like the Baltic Sea anomaly if that if that's a craft that only like well equipped wellunded uh organizations are going to be able to retrieve and I I genuinely think that since the 1960 the NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like uh tier one or tier one adjacent assets and and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DoD elements will be first on seen even even halfway across the world. >> If there's a if there's a crash in in

India in the in the mountains of India, I think the US is is going to get there before any sort of you know local authorities or local on-site personnel. >> Do you think like why do you think the US is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to disclosure? Like it feels like Russia, China have said very little about this stuff. Is it just kind of an open system, closed system? >> China, they'll just kill you, >> right? And also like the I think that the way >> but why isn't the because like more institutional uh components of the United States have started to push

Why is there no one in China being like you know maybe this would actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure? Like we talked about the managed disclosure people in the US. Why aren't there equivalent? >> Maybe they're still on the back foot. >> Maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineer technologies to their ISR platforms into airspace. Maybe they know because of just how spying and infiltration works that the US is far more advanced. So if they open up the can of worms and we have a global disclosure sure Russia may have a couple tic tacs up in their mountains and and and China may have some recovered

vehicles and made some progress in adapting electrooptic cloaking but they know that we are the big baddies and if if the whole can of worms is open we are positioned as a the global superpower for the next 10,000 years. >> Interesting. Yeah. It stands to reason if if these countries know they're on the back foot, which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russia and China over the years um without the same sort of of of access and and superpower leading that we have had. I I mean for example the the US has been the big bad

political superpower. So you know with five eyes retrieval groups we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes we probably get first >> Yeah. Do you think, you know, because you could make a flip side argument to that, which is like you have strong men like Putin and Gi X Gi named himself dictator for life, I think in 2016 or >> where there's this long planning element, this long time horizon ability to make decisions. Um, you know, I think in China it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2049, you know. Um

and you know uh you know obviously there are plans to probably overtake Taiwan in like you know the next few years maybe and um and so in the US you you have like you know this kind of you know temporary this temp you know that that gets into office maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever. Um, so do do you think you know there's John Alexander who's in and around UFO lore like you know up to his neck and he you know he said that the Majestic 12 you know and like the elite governance

systems around UFOs >> uh are kind of like uh almost euphemisms for continuity of government programs. So this idea that you know I think in Eisenhower's time you had the 5412 committee which is this inter agency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability if the president wanted some dirty work done that he didn't want to be involved with that turned into I believe the 303 committee the committee of 40 do you think and then we hear about people like Dick Cheney Henry Kissinger these types

who like if there was a government behind the government those guys would be involved in that government like Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue [ __ ] was playing Nixon like a fiddle. You could say the same thing with Cheney visav Bush and American foreign policy. >> Do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue? pro probably because in the way legacy programs work, it's a parallel chain of of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists

right next to, you know, the executive branch, possibly partly within the executive branch within US DoDIC systems, self-funded intelligence agencies. They can do what they want. They don't adhere to the whims of the president. Um, so by all intents and purposes, these these, you know, if you look at Katherine Austin Fitz talking about 17 to 21 trillion embedded in the US black budget just since like the 1990s alone, these the legacy programs are better funded, better technology, more powerful than the United States government. So this essentially is a a shadow government and like a deep state

for all intents and purposes. And maybe that is also why uh Russia and China are far behind us on the topic. there seems to be far more a far more homogeneous group within them. You know, uh Xi Jinping and Putin are like the monolith of those countries. They are those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries reverse engineering and retrieval programs. The US, I mean our our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs that can harness US assets whenever it wants in

theater or at home. uh can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men at arms. It's just it's a it's a very it's very disturbing the implications of the power of legacy >> Yeah. So we we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs and you talk about historical corroboration for that. Um what about places in the United States that house alien bodies? Are you confident in any of those locations? pro m by its description that would probably

be Dougway. >> that'd probably be the one of the biggest places as well as maybe like Fort Dietrich, Maryland. >> Uh wherever there's Battel and some of Battel's like biological focused FFRDC's. I can't remember the acronyms right now, but wherever Battel is located, I would highly uh believe that these are the places that where bodies are are stored. You know, historically bodies were kept on ice at Wright Patterson flown from Roswell. With the evolution of legacy programs, there are there, which is very scary to think about, there are probably laboratories

SoCal region. Not Antelope Valley, but Anelope Valley probably deals with tech more. But um >> And you think they're And do you feel confident in this whistleblower or not whistleblower? This person who's contacted you? Yeah. I Yeah, that's the person I would like stake my like entire rep on. >> Can you say anything high level about them or >> they don't they don't want to be talked about. Not at all. And I got I like I got to respect that. >> Sure. Sure. Did you get in touch with them or did they get in touch? >> I got in touch with them. This person's a personal hero to me and I just got to if they don't want to be talked about I

>> I must respect. Well, it's a good sign that you're not, you know, I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than if you reach out to them. >> Mo 95% of the people I speak to, I have sought them out. >> That person who I I talked to you about that was on a a cross retrieval team or claimed they have I I spent a year trying to track them down. >> I spent and they do not want to be contacted. This it takes months and months uh to form a relationship with these people. I know it's a good time when I contact them and I just I I'm

usually really upfront with people and they just say, "How did you get my name? Who are you?" and stop talking to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like they're not denying the claims, you know? They're like they're clearly like they they know they're they were involved. >> A lot of them are smart and at first we'll say like >> I have no knowledge or expo like re like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on on like an agreement for an Apple product. I have no extraterrestrials. I have not seen bodies, nor have I seen craft. I have

not been to military installations or disclosed unauthorized disclosures. >> Yeah, this is kind of a crazy question and maybe I'm maybe this is self-defeating for me, but I feel like it's an important question to ask because it's hard for me to comment on my own stuff. I'm probably biased somewhat and you know, I I want to respect anybody that comes on the show. Who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show? >> Oh, that's a good that's a [laughter] great question >> because I can ask you can gas me up all day, but I want you I want you to I want

Of course, I'm also super partial to >> just because I I I know Randy as a human and I like him very much. Yep. >> I'm very partial to uh Graham Hancock just because I like his work outside of the space. >> Yeah, I love Graham. >> Um a classic. It's not an interview. The T. Thompson Brown. >> Oh yeah, >> it's a classic. >> That's like I'm like I'm as high conviction as anything on that stuff. I I love that. >> Let me see. Uh Kirk Oh, yeah. Okay. that I because he bullied you Steven Greer. I

completely that's a great episode. It's interesting but he bullied you. >> But the so the weird thing with anybody >> there are very few people I think you're making this point kind of who are like fully full of [ __ ] cuz even Greer has all sorts of personality issues, you know, and like he's so much ego and like would I want to be stuck in an elevator with that guy? No, I wouldn't. But >> you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. He know he's sitting on a lot of interesting information anecdotes like he was before you >> a lot of these guys kind of you know

sitting in the black in a lot of these programs didn't have anywhere to go and they went to him. >> Yeah. I I look at Greer almost like an Anakin Skywalker type character. >> Yeah. He he gave himself to the uh dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony to then uh burn so many people and expose so many people and hurt so many people. Uh the what he started off with I think was in incredibly noble intentions and true. Yeah, I mean that's a that's a good point. Everyone's testimony I got to

>> Yeah. Only and when I got up there the American generals were there and medical people were up there too and I didn't I just bruised it. Maybe it's similar to like a a Jason Sans type story where there's an initial exposure that's interesting that there's some something there and then they just continue to expand on it to where the story kind of gets out of control. >> Well, I don't think you can easily I mean cuz there are also people online saying like he faked he was not in the Air Force. Bull BS. He was in the Air Force and I have the record. You have his DD214, you have certificates and

stuff like he was definitely in the Air Force and so and I think he was a weather observer and I think he was based at Area 51. And then I think he was and then beyond that. Yeah, it's like hard for me to believe he was like hanging out with these beings for as long but I mean there's clearly he's very neurodeivergent, you know, clearly. >> Um, so it's tough. It's tough. You know, I my po point being I I would agree with you on that, but I it's also pretty hard to definitively write him off also. It's like, you know, and and

to the NSA. >> Yeah. basically, which if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned, like that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the NSA. >> So, and he he goes, "Oh, yeah, cool." He goes, "Oh, you did that? Great." Like, he didn't give a f. He didn't care at all. And it was to me I'm like, "Oh, this guy's so comfortable in his own like he knows what happened to him. He's not trying to signal anything. He's the opposite of a Greer who's constant. There's so much bluster. >> He doesn't have an answer for >> He doesn't have an answer for everything. Yeah. What you and you you

electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money. >> Yeah, there you go. And like just a beyond reasonable casual guy and would admit would say, you know, I think the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever. And it's like you try remembering something, >> you know, moment by moment that happened to you 30 plus years ago. Good luck. >> That's like way 97. If if he doesn't remember something, I I say, "Hey, do you remember the smell?" I don't remember. He doesn't remember. And St. Paul Lazar, same my details get a little

was the base." And so like you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it because you don't really have the internet, you know, in popular use back then at least. And you know, now we did. So everything keeps seeming to check. And then the final thing I'll say about that one is I you know and I I hate doing this but a guy who is doesn't want to go public also but very high up and like extremely credible position who I I wish I could I could say who it is. You can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want. You can you can not

like I Bobby Rayan meant >> Okay. Yeah. Right. >> That's a separate question. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, the separate question is top five people you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to to to basically extract their >> So they have good intentions. >> And like could they like say anything in the actual test? Cuz like I would, you know, I'd pick somebody like Grush, but like, you know, it's tough cuz like half the things were like he's like, you know, let's go to a skiff right now. And like I'll tell you, by the way, when people say Grush has no firsthand experience, go back to look in what Moscowitz asked David Grush. When

Moscowitz said, do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms depicting UFOs? Grush said kind of danced around the topic. And then Moscowitz said, "Have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes?" And he said, "I would have to answer that in the close." >> There you go. So yeah, let's do full open disclosures >> so they can say whatever. Okay. I mean that's funny because I my mind goes to some of the people who I think don't have the best intentions but know so much clearly due to their background. Um, I think people like, you know, I

think Grush has like kind of autistic attention to detail, you know, hundreds of pages that he gave to the ICIG, uh, you know, Thomas Monheim, and like has just like programs, names, dates, like, you know, where the bodies are buried. So, I'd say him, >> he could probably go through right now. you probably deliver >> the exact specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up first created and he'd be able to name everything off the top of his >> I think you know >> I think Hal Putoff would be great. I

think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye. I mean like it's like you know if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 >> crafts you know on on Joe Rogan it's like where are you getting that >> Yeah. And why Yeah. and where as well if just 12 to 15. I reckon the 12 to 15 were just the ones he was exposed to. >> Totally. And he seems to pop up everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science >> and sigh stuff >> and sigh stuff which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this. Remember

what Grush said on uh JRE uh you know they they started talking about remote viewing stuff and and David Grush says well what if the CIA started looking into this as a sigh stuff as a possible solution to serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a >> I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said that nobody's ever really kind of paid attention to. >> Interesting. So wait, so what would this this would be? They were talking about Stargate remote viewing he and Joe and u Grush proposes the question that maybe these these sigh programs were taken on

by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our >> I mean that makes total sense. We'll also look at put offs you know he's the founding architect of Stargate all the psychic spy stuff and then he moves on to like the rest of his career seems really dedicated to the UFO question. So there I that has to be connected somehow and you hear a lot of rumors that they're that they're somehow connect and look this is really weird but like okay

if the size stuff is real which I think both of us think it is remote viewing is a real modality what is happening in reality itself like what what what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict it's like psychic >> which is really weird right >> yeah and the lever that Yeah, the the the system that allows remote viewing to work and operate it is really it kind it breaks my brain cuz I'm such a like logistic person um to to to think about SI principles and stuff. It it it's such

>> So I there's been a you know I think I've talked about it before a testimony I'm not really sure what to do with because I I don't I really don't know how to act on it. And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim, but it's somebody who uh claimed whilst they were in naval intelligence, they were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a basically a remote viewing tool. Uh but that this sphere was basically used to I I guess like uh coagulate time onto the plank scale, looking at at time as as frames of plank

scale and uh combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view [clears throat] parallel timelines. I again I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex. >> If you know what to do with it, send it to me. >> I'll send it [laughter] to you because I It's It's very interesting. It's It's very interesting, but I again I I don't know the validity to it. I I've not even be begun to start to vet that individual because it's just a really interesting claim that I I'm just not sure what to do. I'll I'll send that I I'll try and get that guy over. >> I I would be so fascinated. I mean, Matthew Brown also talked about some AI

timeline management system that the White House has or whatever. >> Well, then that would that would give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works, right? Because if you have an AI that can predict future events, we have a pretty deterministic universe, right? Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branches of the multiverse or something. And you know who know you know actually um Hugh Everett who created the many worlds theories you know Everett many worlds um he went on

spiritual experiences. And so I I wonder if you know if you were to actually like say like the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing like maybe like multiverse branching is happening all the time and like there's pruning occurring and there's certain apocalypses that happen like in the three body problem and then some survive or whatever. like the DOE would be like the center of that stuff, >> And so like maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world and it explains a lot of the UFOs and

nuke stuff. And if you actually talked to Robert Hastings, I had this deep conversation with him and I was like, "How many of these guys have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted, not just they're on the base, they've seen stuff or whatever." And he >> "Uh, like seven or eight out of the 167." Whoa. And I go, "Did you pull Did you pull them formally on this?" They go, he goes, "No, those are just the people who've like come out saying that." So in my mind, I'm like, "There's probably like half of them." Yeah. >> Or more. And he himself has had

time in the programs. Yeah. Yeah. It's like what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people either directly or incidentally exposed to while these programs. >> And then you have Tim Taylor telling Diana Pulka, here's the hierarchy of being. And I think it's like alien or nonhuman intelligence, you know, or aliens or whatever, you know, human hybrids with the beings. >> Then it's like, you know, intel agencies or whatever. And it's like on down from there. And like I'm like how do you have is this do you think he's legit? Do you

these experiences >> and gets really close with them. Like, didn't Isn't there photos of Tim Taylor at like football games of of Chris Bledso's children or something like that? Like he's really involved in their >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't >> Would Tim Taylor be the third one on your witness >> list? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if Well, again, here's the problem is the intersection between like have some incentive to like not say everything and like what they know is like extremely high. So, like if it's like the truth serum test, Yeah. I got to do Tim Taylor

for sure. Like >> this platform full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in in some disclosure and they get the old >> I mean another a guy on the good side I think or at least good side at the end of his life was Harold Malmgrren and I think he knew a lot more and it this was so sad to me because I thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up. we did our first interview, his health started to go downhill right after that. And so we were going to do like four hours like three days in a row or something like

>> And um and then he said things to me that like I don't think anybody thought that like whoever the Majestic 12 or group is like had anything to do with him. I mean it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something. But he then says on the phone to me, and I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me because his voice is m muffled and he's in the hospital on his deathbed, but he goes that was when the CIA started tracking me. They put my name in some file and he goes them and the Majestic.

>> And then we had we dubbed the whole thing cuz he had throat cancer 10 years before. And then I see it in the dub. I'm like like after he passed away. The first Friday I came to the office. I said, "Why am I here? I asked for it." said the day

that you met the person of MIT, >> that day your name went in all the important books of talent >> that that that who keeps They not only but you know all the majestic all these guardians they also

to protect the world. >> It's like what did he know? You know >> with how quickly his health declined it almost felt like he was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information. You know you hear a lot of like family members of of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones or you know get a final word in. It seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present, with his family present. It it seemed like right after that his health declined. I don't maybe he was it this has just been something

he was holding on to for so long. >> I think so. I think he was bottling it up and he really I think he felt a little bad about some maybe like tangential touch points he had had with the program and I think he just wanted to see more of this stuff out. And >> I wish more legacy people had consciences like that. I know. I wish that too. And then I also I understand if your family's being threatened, if you're if you're taking some anthrax booster and for all you know, you know, it's like >> or you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your like computer or to get

your life ruined. >> Who wants to deal with that? Yeah. No. >> Yeah. So, but I I I do wish more people can and and honestly, you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out because I feel like you're in touch. You're as close to the metal as it gets. you know, like if somebody has come out, like often I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them, but I'm not really like you're you're really like on the front lines trying to get people out over multimonth periods and that's an

impressive I mean, you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's it's amazing, man. >> Well, I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from from legacy people. Take a like take more of a step against me and I'd like to see what happens. I'll put this as a like a call to action for for anybody who's had firsthand legacy exposure. Please contact me at I I my initial my wish isn't to get people public like to to make videos about them if they want to and I've vetted them properly. Sure, we'll do a project together, but my initial thing

is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can act perform do actionable things with that testimony. And what's the goal at that point if it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily, but it's to kind of force is it like executive action or >> Yeah, executive administrative action. And I think there can be an impetus where you know things like the the administration they have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight and uh that is when a disclosure will

occur and I think that is when a a disclosure of a non-human intelligence and active and active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials. But hey, we're doing this but the technologies are still held up in the black budget. That's fine. If if if the US receives a disclosure that non-human intelligence is here, it's been interacting with humanity for a long time. Like Carl Nell says, we actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them. But we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern. That is a fine medium for the

vast majority of the American public. Like there doesn't and I wouldn't even you don't need to it's the same thing with u kind of what what most people talk about. don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology because you don't need um bad faith actors creating a flux liner and ramming it into New York and creating it turning New [clears throat] York into a like a >> for sure. But I would say I don't know like I think there are trade secrets for example with nuclear weapons but nuclear physics is like 99% disclosed >> physics about like internal mass

reduction and gra and like space-time bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that that absolutely should be given to humanity >> for sure. Like say if you figured out that this like you know the quantum gravity stuff is BS and that actually gravity is is not what we think it is or because gravity's been this big question in physics for you know decades. huge for like the world for like our ability to like, you know, kind of manipulate matter and like make the world a better place and like build, you know, engineering and, you know, medical

have some weird effects that they know how to get. Yeah. Kind of in little experimental cases. I think the idea that there's a box that could like power the earth in a sustainable way and it's like hidden in some like DOE national lab or you know one of these you know containers that you've mentioned I I think that's ridiculous. >> I don't think that's true. If it if it is true it is a travesty and like you know the Lost Century by Steven Greer is like the most important documentary ever or whatever. >> But I just I I have trouble believing that. I think it's somewhere in the

middle where you have these like physics effects that they've proven like the Biffield Brown effect for example that I >> where like I'm pretty high confidence that there's a there there and you have Carl Nell who ran a $2 billion P&L you know CTO of of like basically a Northrup subsidiary saying you know watch Jesse's video on Thomas Towns and Brown. Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into towns and brown and some other very interesting uh like heretical technologies. So, I'd invite people uh

reproduction vehicles like we have workable craft that uses, >> you know, anti-gravity. I don't know. I don't know. Um I think I think that at least copycat vehicles and like the the subject of alien reproduction vehicles. I I think that is definitely a thing. Yeah. People often ask the question if alien reproduction vehicles exist, you know, why are why, you know, why is the F-16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR3B? Well, I I I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles there there's probably a very select number and the

technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly. Kind of what you're talking about copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the blackest of of programs for ISR purposes. You know, I I mentioned earlier like >> uh the founding of the I I just I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs. The NRO was founded to get American intelligence in denied airspaces because we knew that nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured

destruction. So there was a huge advantage in in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar, Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of adversaries and denied airspaces grew like exponentially in importance. So, I mean, if you have a TR3B that can uh travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on uh any sort of of detection system, whether it's radar, whether it's human eyes, and to gather intelligence from 100 ft away from a a Russian ICBM silo, that is

>> Yeah. See, seems like it. And I think the B2 stealth bomber was like the last classified vehicle that was then declassified. So, or am I wrong? B21 Raider or was the Raider ever even like inherently classif? >> I don't think it was class. I think we all know about the B21 Raider and that's like an official thing. So maybe I'm >> No, I think you might be right cuz there was the SR71 U2 A12 ox cart. Yep. >> Uh and now of course >> F17 was classified for a little bit. >> All that ton of test range. >> Yep. Yep. And that that crashed in

Bakersfield in 1986 or something and then people started to but I think the B2 was the last like classified then declassified. So, we've got to have stuff after that. Like, come on. It's not just like F22s, F-35s, you know, we've got to have like >> I think the strongest use case are >> Mhm. I mean, I I know numerous people who have have seen triangles on launch pads at at Groom Lake or, you know, Roger Castle, 150 ft away from a giant rotating triangle whose characteristics are

almost exactly similar to to TR3B that the triangle story. And that's a great thing you broke with Castle like that that story comes up time and time again there even as like ancillary parts of other stories like Randy Anderson who you broke as well like with Area 51 he claimed he saw triangles taking off from >> 51 triangles stored at yeah DOE owned lands across the Nevada test and training range. Yeah, Dylan Borland triangle. The Belgian wave were triangles. And I wonder if that, you

know, had something to do with, you know, maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech, like, you know, American technology. >> I mean, Edgar Fuche gets a ton of flack for not producing claims for his uh testimony. And like, I get it. What's he going to do? Wheel a TR3B out, but I still think his testimony has so much incredible uh juice to it and aspects and things that I think are inherently true. For example, back in 1998, Edgar Fuche was talking about TR3B. Hey, first actually operational proto or operational models of TR3B started to

kind of fly around in the '90s. From the 70s until onward, it was prototype models. The pilots forum are out of the Navy test pilot school out of Pax River and the AFTC out of the Edwards 412 test wing, which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of Ed, the Lieutenant Colonel at the 412. So the the fuchche TR3B is is mind-bogglingly interesting. Additionally, he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of Sandia and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. In my framework of UFO legacy programs with um FFRDC's, this

would make complete sense that high trust government-owned contractor operated where the technology is still proprietary government property like a reverse engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction would be kept within the FFRDC while contractors like Northrup Grumman uh Loheed Martin Teladine Ryan uh would would be used as compartmentalized contractors on like the skin of the craft, the construction, all that stuff. >> Do we know that Edgar Fuche worked at Area 51? So, we have we have records of >> And then anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims.

>> I'm particularly fond of his mention of the Men in Black with Treat, the Tactical Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Team, and how that kind of ties into weird things about like uh the Likenstein Crown Prince Hans Adams II talking about Albert Stubble and his little treat project and stuff like >> Wait, what is this? There's a there's an old I got to find it because this was this was like a a a Hans Adams to Steven Greer I think email in the 90s or maybe it was reversed but where uh Adams I I have it in my I think

it's my TR3B video on on triangles but Hans Adams talking about like a treat existing under Albert Stubble who of course was head of US Army INSCOM and was obsessed with psychic spy stuff and also uh was tasked with the intelligence sport activity ISA which is now a J- Sock unit. >> What did he mean when he said treat >> like T R E A um like a like a men in black type thing. My my brain is is fuzzy on the exact context around uh Hans Adams saying Stubble and his uh

treat organization. >> So I have to reference my video for the exact specifics. But it's that's an interesting thing. >> Um Fuche was at Area 51. Um I'm trying to think what else. [clears throat] I mean the rotating the spinning mercury was also mentioned in DLA. >> Yeah. you know the commab context where you had rotating spinning mercury according to this Polish journalist Igor >> and you had Ernest Growitz and you know this uh

>> uh kind of head head of SS medical stuff under Joseph Mangala and or maybe he was actually Mangala report might have reported to him I don't know right >> and then um >> uh who else oh Walter Gerlock this guy studying anti-gravity in in the German context at a nearby university was also working on DLA. >> So, and then they had spinning mercury as well. And then the vimmanas and you know there's spinning mercury there. >> So maybe maybe this is the latest instantiation is the TR3B spinning

>> cuz fuch was adamant that the TR3B is not anti-gravity. It's internal mass reduction. It's to reduce the weight the mass of the TR3B by I think 89%. and then various propulsion systems propel it and it and can indefinitely loiter go in low earth orbit. He said that the program was spearheaded by NRO, CIA and NSA which of course to me that fully checks out. Um I'm trying to think what else cuz his um 1998 International UFO Conference or

Congress, I can't remember what the acronym stands for. That 1998 presentation is fantastic because Fuchche delivers his disclosures as well as like the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on TR3B and he Fuchche himself stated he had seen uh the craft twice. Once in Edwards Air Force Base and once somewhere else I can't quite remember but you know if I if I if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have it would be the triangles. I like >> so confident in the triangle >> shows up everywhere really does. What do you think of maybe we can we can wrap up

with this crazy story of of Dan Berish because I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob Lazar but at S4 Area 51 >> and there's there these crafts and these beings who who who is he and what did he experience? So, he's an alleged what? Microbiologist out at S4 who interfaced with the J rod, a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at uh seven six layers under Area 51 S4 under all the weird craft storage and project looking glass and all that weird

stuff. And that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go uh interface with this bean and extract its blood for tissue sampling. and he gave like a super long uh documentary or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. It's either the greatest LAR of all time or maybe there's something to it or maybe I don't. It's either the greatest LAR of all time or there's there's something to >> Have you seen I think his name is Brian >> UFO researcher and he gives a a presentation on Dan Barish. There's some

weird stories around Dan Barish where I think his like godfather was Mike McConnell who was >> Mike McConnell. >> Yeah. Is director of the NSA and like there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying in like a freak accident. And I don't know if Brian Jackson's, you know, sure about this or what, but he thinks that it's almost like Mike McConnell takes in Dan Barish as like this like, you know, like godson, like really important person to him and puts places him on all these

special projects and almost views him like a son, like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or something. Something's very strange. That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody I would say with almost like as high secondhand uncertainty as you could have was involved in the programs. >> This is where things get really weird because John Lear uh is on record saying in an interview like I helped you know uh uh get Bob Lazar a job at S4 Area 51 because this was this all all part of this limited disclosure plan because we

knew that we could you know um Bob Lazar was discreditable. we could say that he owned a brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff. Um, and he said that he he was asked to do this at the behest of a Majestic 12 member named Mike Mlelen. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> But I wonder if it's Mike McConnell. >> It could have been Mike >> because there's the S4 Area 51 connection with Dan Barish. >> Yeah. which, you know, even outside of of Bob Lazar uh and Dan British, I'm

like fully convinced that S4 is a real place and not not on Tonipa, but S4 right by Papoose Lake. >> I am too. [laughter] >> Dan Barish, his story is so interesting. I I'm not sure what to to make of it. Brian Jackson's doing great work on British uh the Night Shift channel with um with uh Clint and and Xander Jones. They're they're super into Dan Berish. Then when I was hanging out with with Chris Ramsey, he showed me the most bizarre videos of um Dan Barish and his

>> like vlogs of of the most weird possibly agency coded like what things of all time where where his wife will like show an orange crush and almost give like what seems like agency keywords or something. I it implying maybe Dan Brish and his wife are are absolutely bonkers or maybe she's his handler. I I don't know. The story is so bizarre and there's a lot to chew through. I that's why I'm glad people are doing good work and and looking through his story because there's actually quite a bit to chew through. And of course, J-Rod. Um,

the story doesn't just stop there with uh Dan Barish, but also goes back to to Bill Uouse, >> who claimed at Area 51 auxiliary sites, there was basically a a ARV or extraterrestrial vehicle simulator built off the Kingman crash and that a recovered uh biologic called J-Rod was was stored at one of the auxiliary facilities. Oh, Bill U said that before Dan Barish. >> I don't know if it was before or after cuz I think Bill the primary Bill U interview before he died was was uh mid

2000s and Dan Berish's interview was like 2003 2004 right? So, you know I without knowing those dates for certain Bill U could have just ripped off Dan Barish. But I I'm not 100% sure on whose disclosures came >> Well, that's interesting. I mean, the fact that they're backing each other up probably I who knows if it's uncorrelated, but with all this S4 stuff, this is why we need Project >> Yeah, we Exactly. >> This is why Luigi has to get your movie done, man. >> Yeah, we you and I both have a lot of um

faith in in Luigi. We kind of talked about the the the project is is incredible. You know, I I talked about how uh there are likely like underground sites, SAP FS, stiff subtrading facilities or dums built using disguised like foliage uh disguised mountains, maybe even projections. And um Luigi painstakingly go tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around S4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where S4 is. And that's another thing where like Area

51 was >> barely probably not ever really talked about before Bob Lazar. Then S4 definitely wasn't talked about. I think there's some argument that Area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something obscure magazine. Bazar probably didn't have access to that. I think, you know, it's clear that he was there. But then the fact that, you know, if we're going to get any corroboration on S4 from that movie, that's a big deal, >> right? And people like some people like to try and say that Bob Lazar ripped off the S4 name uh off of Tonapest Range

because just east of Tonapest Range is a is a outdoor site called S4 that Janet Airlines or so Janet Airlines the famous red striped airline um flies to Area 51. Area six, which is by the Yaka Mountain Flat, which has a Loheed Martin owned aerial operations facility that does work for Ditra, for DARPA, for like the NRO, the NGA. Um, which is really weird. Not almost nobody knows about this area 6. Again, it's on the Yaka flat and it has a Loheed Martin aerial operations

facility. It's super super super kind of like held lock and keep. And then Janet also flies to Tonapest range and Janet also drops employees off uh at Tona Pestrange to the area or to the S4 site there. And apparently according to uh Lazy G Ranch, which is a great blog that actually tracks like FFA flight radar and stuff of Janet Airlines and so forth, uh employees on the S4 area of Tonipa test range have to be taken there directly from Janet and cannot drive on site like other employees at Tonipa can. So that that that's a bit strange, isn't

it? And another where did we first hear about Janet Airlines? Bob Lazar. >> Yeah, because Janet Janet Janet Airlines that's not a disputable thing. Janet Airlines is a you can go on YouTube right now and look up Janet Airlines and look at flights. >> Was that publicly known before? >> I don't know. I I would go on the website oldestarch.com and in quotations do Janet Airlines. >> Oh, I love that. That's a cool oldestarch.com. Good resource. >> Yeah. see if there were any early mentions of Janet Airlines >> cuz Lazy G Ranch does a very good uh kind of breakdown. So all across the

Nevada test site, whether it's S4, whether it's Area 6, whether it's Tonipa, whether it's Area 51, the infrastructure is there, the underground infrastructure is there to to house Alfred O'Donnell's craft, to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations, to house Bob Lazar and nine recovered craft. It has the infrastructure to do so. >> Where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think uh things are bursting at the seams and we

get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure? Do you think we get some slow rolled managed thing? Do you think the subject dies out? What do you think >> It's not going to die out. I I disagree with Carl Nell quite a bit when he says that his current the the current like carefully managed 2017 originating uh disclosure campaign is kind of dead. Maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign, but I disagree with with sort of uh demeaning comments like that. I think I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Grush in a driver's seat actively pushing and actively

SSCI and others to go uh find more about whistleblowers for him. So that guy's a coward for not staking his political career when he's been well known into the subject since 2017. Maybe a coward's a strong word. Maybe just hasn't had an avenue which to to affect things. But he, Marco Rubio, is known about the topic. But for the the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbell's Area 51, Bob Lazar and Flying Saucers, who might have seen uh the phenomenon by James Fox, maybe they saw Uncknowledged by Steven Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch Age of Disclosure and they see people

gateway for so many people. >> That's what I tell people who are interest if they're still grappling with the question of like are UFOs real? >> Yeah. I think the phenomenon is a a really good place to start. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating, man. And then what do you think like what's your, you know, fast forward to 10 years from now? What do you hope you're doing? >> I I would I would love nothing more than to be involved with um of transition of legacy programs into trai transition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels. M

>> uh I would love to be on teams that goes and inventories warehouses housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs, you know, still black budget, still protected by USP, but back under United States control. I'd like to be involved in um helping whistleblowers get basically reparations for maybe their VA disability that's been canned. Uh stuff like that. uh help I I would like to be in an official capacity helping um pry

legacy programs from the occult dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman and a lot of these old crrons of the old guard who who don't want to who are in these old boys club who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to to uh under control. Do you think like, you know, just going back to like the kind of convoluted org chart or h it's feels so I mean I'm sure a lot of people watching this are like how is that kept secret? Do you think maybe it's something like the threebody

problem where >> if the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something >> that like the the the org structure is somehow managed by them or >> not necessarily I think it's I think it's very I think it's once you spend enough time looking at it it's very rational how this is kept such secret. >> how many people in the US do you think gosh know about like >> know pretty intimately about the UFO? >> Intimately a small number. I'd say hundreds in the in the low thousands.

>> Maybe a thousand. >> As far as like defense industrialbased contractors who are exposed to meta materials who don't really know what they are, but it's UFO stuff. Probably a larger number. Maybe >> 5 to 10,000. So I'd say maybe >> 200. I'm going to lower my initial estimate of like 200 people. with a a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge. Y >> and uh >> do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds? >> Probably not. The best and brightest minds are are uh the best and brightest

right now are probably at like uh actually probably some of them are they're probably at MITER but also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like Anderil and stuff like that. But I think that uh I think that the the reason this is kept so secret is you know it's it's a lot more simple than than people think. At every single layer of the programs there are program protection strategies. You already have the US black budget. You already have spe you already have SAPs caps and USPS almost impenetrable. You have uh you know no foreign no foreign

have the DS&T who can put the gibbos on Loheed Martin trying to get rid of materials. You have this rotating personal agency. you have bigot lists of of special access programs dealing with exotic materials where to keep the the the program readon access small you'll have people fulfilling dual roles for example this is something interesting I have have been told you might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of like accounting or personnel management stuff so they don't have to read in more people uh so people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them but you know never never up

you're not going to have an industrial security guy who is also doing like lab >> Furthermore, there was a uh from what I understand, there was an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new on new program incumbents. Uh this would lead to even folks within FFRDC's like MITER who are who are being told hey you are working on detecting exploiting recovering housing uh recovered craft of non-human origin presumably extraterrestrial and

hey the bodies are st stored over there in California that they're still not uh briefed into the historical lineage of of the programs and historical members who have worked on them past successes past failures past facilities. So the the compartmentalization is is obscene and like David Gush says it it it's all carryover from the uh Manhattan project and at the time that might have been a good idea because you might have had Truman, you might have had Eisenhower thinking, hey, what the what we're just getting into the Cold War after World War II. What the heck are we supposed to do with these alien spaceships flying

around that have crashed due to high-powered radar and we now have their bodies? We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation. And that spiraled out of control. So it is it is very and you know that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations. Um you got Dodie your doies of the world who are Paul Benowitzing people and so forth. So I also I think this is going to sound maybe a little nuts but I I think there's a there there I think there are people in the like pro- UFO community on like Twitter and stuff that

almost play up the dangers. Like there are danger like I I've been [ __ ] with. You've probably been [ __ ] with. I've had weird [ __ ] happen to me, but there are people where it's like the all they talk about is how dangerous it is to like look into this stuff. And I'm like, are you trying to deter like more people coming out? That seems like their whole beat. They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want >> that to be a meme that's like embedded in your head if you're ever thinking about going public because there have been deaths here and deaths there. And

there, you know what? There have there have been some spooky [ __ ] has happened, >> but I don't know. It's like if that's if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again, I sometimes question. I'm like, are you some sort of operative or something? >> Fearongering to drive clicks cuz Yeah. Same thing. I've I've had weird. >> And are you trying to deter the next person from coming out because you're you're talking about how spooky this whole space is. Like >> I don't know. It drives engagement. People saying like, "Oh, you know, this horrible thing could happen or this scary thing happens." and say I you know

I personally I know you don't and I don't I I'm not going to dwell in it's it's it's useless. You're not going to get any work done. >> No, you're not. >> Just talking about the dangers. >> You can't be paranoid or whatever >> because you know if you got on a podcast or if I got on a podcast and just talked about I'm investigating UFOs and it's so dangerous. Like look at me go. I've been threatened. Nobody really wants to hear that. That's just >> No. It's solopyistic the drama so nobody gives a [ __ ] Yeah. It's like, >> do you want to get closer to the truth?

>> go for it. Do it, you know, or or not. Like, choose another route or something. But no, there's a lot of like uh, you know, it's like all about me, you know, and it's like, no, it's not. >> Yeah. It's be about the content. >> Yeah. This is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as like, you know, I I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine. And and I I understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject. I don't understand the physics. I don't understand the experience or I don't understand the the biologics. It's

anybody in this subject who also claims to understand everything is probably is is nonsensical >> I think. So I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant. >> Yeah. And then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like the government clearly has a bunch of factions who like know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it and have done some really cool scientific things on on this topic and often have tried to

like weaponize the stuff to be honest. But they don't have some like foundational onlogical truth that they even have the ability to give you. Like >> the, you know, it's like >> what if like some rogue vigilante team, you know, that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like, "We're going to create a little beep boop machine. You're going to like match the tones in your head. You're going to try to connect." You know, like >> that'd be cool. >> But that's what I'm saying. It's like, but that's, you know, stuff can happen

in any context. government or not, there are things that there, you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like build overnight like outside of the government, but like >> a lot of this stuff is way more like, you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it, you know, more than you think. It's not this like cabal who's like controlling >> Yeah. everything. >> That's why I Chris Ramsay had a a very poignant tweet recently. It it doesn't apply to me because of course I I operate in my own lane of legacy programs. is just what I like where he said, "I would I would rather talk to like a farmer about UFOs than like um

you know, a former government person." And I I I think that's so valuable. We have what we have people like that that are are focused more on the the human aspect, the the experience aspect cuz I'm I'm I'm a I'm a lost puppy when it comes to >> Well, so so some some of the most credible I think witnesses are like you find them there's like they have no like digital footprint, you know, they're living in the middle of nowhere. Like I was in Norway and I, you know, talk talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house and he's just like never gone public. He doesn't he barely knows

>> Like the most simple man you'll ever meet and I'm like yeah I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that. And then you know I think a lot of on the government side you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever but then simultaneously to that like there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign like you see AJ from the Y files go on Shawn Ryan or you see Chase Hughes or whatever and it's like these people aren't whistleblowers they're government propaganda artists and it's like >> it is just as lazy to wholesale

uh accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything they're just cuz they had to go through. >> Just cuz they had to go through Dobster. And because they from like a an American like tactical, you know, geopolitical advantage perspective like don't want to like leak, you know, like war secrets to like Russia, China, >> or go to jail for espionage >> or go to jail for espionage. Like just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower. Like like you know, and then also like

>> what what about the meta question? So you think they're running a scop, you know, Chase Hughes or Sean Ryan, like figure out why they're running the SC like ask the like figure out what's going on. I think the sila in Kuribdus is like, you know, you accept every you go, you know, poor Paul Paul Benowitz, but like you accept everything, you >> or the other side, which is you you you don't take anything seriously. You don't take anything at face value. There has to be some like middle path. >> Yeah. I think it's it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self

agrandires, liars, people acting on behalf of SCOPs everywhere and then uh noble individuals who are just trying to to speak truths like David Grush, like Dylan Borland for example, who I think is another one. So, it's it's just it's such a complicated topic. I do I do have >> I know I know people like Ross Goldart have been a little pessimistic on on the sub on the subject of disclosure progression. I do have an optimistic view there that we are heading towards a

a point of hopefully not like CIA sponsored limited disclosure of of no mention of derivative technologies but like a a more complete picture of our reality and what uh really interesting RDT&E programs within our own US DoD and IC have been doing for n 90 years. I I hope I hope maybe, you know, this might seem like a foolish dream, but I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of a legacy of the legacy programs. That would be awesome. That to me would be I I could think of no more interesting. I

I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades just writing out the the history of legacy >> Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified. So, I think >> may maybe one day. May maybe one day. Far from it, though. I I have just as much of a I I just have my own piece of the puzzle. But we, you know, just just promise that if they hit you up and say, "Hey, you can be our official, you know, historian that uh that is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public." [laughter] >> Yeah. I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the the programs.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Just cuz that's kind of what I what I stand against. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope I hope that happens. And I I do think, you know, even the people trying to manage the thing or flood the zone or whatever, often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest and eyeballs and like young people are getting more interested. And >> that has its own momentum that's just going to snowball. And like it's the it's honestly like a classic like intelligence failure is like you try to

pull off these triple bank shots and you know they end up kind of backfiring. >> Yeah. Perfect example there is uh Steven Greenreet trying to uh trying to take down David Gush essentially essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after uh being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered uh from PTSD and that backfires and and that that sort of stuff is >> yeah does not work out very well. >> It's so bad and like guys I think he was

like had a contract with the DOE or something at some point or Green Street has under the DoD, >> I think, Department of State where he said himself he was doing soft propaganda videos for like uh uh foreign nationals trying to get them like trying to get them interested in in basically US patriotism and nationalism. >> So yeah, that's a little weird. And he's constantly trying to provoke a reaction, I think. You know, and on that note of people attacking David Grush, you have a guy, I think his name is Basic Chris on Twitter, something like that. I forget his actual name because I, you know, I

don't think he's worthy of a mention here, but he he went [laughter] he went he went off on uh David Grush. Well, first I did an interview with Danny Jones and I talked about PTSD that David Grush suffered from >> and I talked about a friend who was like, you know, morted while he was uh uh you know um in Afghanistan deployed. this guy was pounding the pavement on how David Gush how I, you know, I was lying or making this up and that David Grush just had a friend who had committed suicide or something later and

that was the cause of his PTSD. And then somebody finally interject I I never engaged with this guy, but somebody interjects and they go, um, you know, hey man, actually this did happen. He talked about two different friends and he goes, oh sorry. And it's like, dude, I mean, like, do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like, you know, served our country? You think that's cool? Like, that's that's so >> It's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered PTSD from his service in Jordan. And once he got out of the armed services,

he, you know, he he turned to substances to deal with the pain. Yeah. And he got clean because he's a he's a strong man and he he got his life back under him. that because he struggled with addiction issues, because of the horrific things he's faced in life, that means his testimony is untrue. It's the same people who say, "Oh, Dylan Borland looks nervous, so therefore he must be like neurode divergent, and therefore he's being tricked and prayed upon." >> He who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying. It's it's um No, I think it's despicable. And I also I I want to flip the frame because a lot of people

talk about grifters in the UFO space. There are grifters. I think one we talked about on the show, Steven Greer, and and you know, he like will do C5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it and it's, you know, it's kind of >> I think those tickets were 9K for the C5 >> To totally messed up praying on people's credulousness, like not cool, right? But the grifters, at least you understand the free market incentives to grift. You're like, "Oh, you're sensationalizing to make money. you're just as bad as, you know, any random

used car salesman or somebody with, you know, some online course or whatever where they're totally skimping you on what they're giving you valuewise. Like, I get what's going on there. What I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier. There is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all the people coming out. They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types and no one pays them. So, who is you're not making money. Nobody's even engaging with their content. So like if you're why are you you feel like

it feels like you're operationalized? Like who is actually paying you? Where are the incentives? You show me the incentive, I'll show you the action. Either that or Yeah, >> it it's that or they get a and probably it could be both for all we know, but also like a dopamine rush from giving a a counter point to, you know, crap on American Heroes. It >> it's it's so weird. And like I you know if if you're if you're I actually am pro people being skeptical of you know if like a testimony comes out you feel like it's not corroborated great like you

know come at it. I actually think you know the D Dean Johnson thing you know if if given that he didn't know have the knowledge of like the fact that you know Malgrren had the CIA background was actually like decently like rigorously like written up although I think it's like totally wrong on all the details but like there are room for skeptics are good like I've had MC West on my show I think you know he's seems like increasingly just like a bad actor with the Beatric stuff but like I do want skeptic like skeptics are good but like be a good skeptic don't like Don't go

after the person's service when like that's obviously like just real. The service is real. Go after the testimony and say like, you know, we think that's kind of weak or something. >> The counter points of their argument and testimony and then and then let's and then debate those. >> Yes. Go from there. >> Yeah. Don't go ad hom like if you're if you're going ad hominemum to that extent that consistently without any clear incentive to like you're not getting paid from a free market perspective and you're spending all day doing this stuff you have to like who who's actually paying you like

>> yeah it's and you know worst case they're just trolls who like sewing discourse on social media and infiltrating like UFO Twitter which obviously there's a lot of different personalities a lot of people pushing different things and just going obviously completely anti against the grain and and crapping on people that many people are are interested in their testimony and and studying and like [laughter] it's just it's a weird space. >> It's definitely a weird space. Well, >> yeah, we should uh focus on the aspirational feature which is, you know,

hopefully we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point. >> Yeah, please. >> The the world gets disclosure and you get to write the official uh UFO legacy program history. Uh UAP GB, this is always uh such a pleasure. I always learn so much from you and uh please everybody go subscribe to the channel UAP Gerb any anything else you want to kind of promote here? >> Uh gosh I I don't know. >> Whistleblowers your email. So anybody >> uh if if you have firsthand exposure to

UFO legacy programs, please email my Proton Mail UAP group at Again, the the the goal isn't to get you on on on camera uh or just blindly feature your testimony, but let us talk. Let me uh take your testimony. I mean, I will fly to you in in in person if your if your story is credible enough and under goes a strict vetting process I've done before. Take your testimony, record it, and uh try to get it to the proper folks. And and if if you've been met with reprisals, record those as well to

try and get those to people who can assess those reprisals. and uh hopefully get that solved. It it's not a joking thing. It's not a serious thing. This a very serious thing. If you've had firsthand exposure, please please contact me there. >> Absolutely. Subscribe to his channel, too. It's like the most hardcore best UFO channel online. Also, his Patreon. >> Oh, yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't I don't I don't have the time to do like exclusive Patreon stuff. Uh nor do I want to gatekeep any of my stuff. So the the the Patreon I I don't gatekeep the

any content. It's only to support the channel if you you think it's it's worth something. If you don't support uh on Patreon, please go like and subscribe to projects no matter what. >> Threehour deep dives, you know, just like like the fire hose of information. So just, you know, that deserves in any other context you'd have to pay for that. And you know, you're nice enough to just put it put it out. um because this is a topic that I think it's it's probably hard to kind of, you know, put behind a payw wall, but um yeah, I I think you you deserve as much uh

sponsorship as you can get. >> Well, thank you, man. >> So, yeah, man. All right. >> Thank you so much, Jesse. >> It's been a blast. Appreciate it, sir. >> Absolutely. Over the last couple of months, we've been designing the new American Alchemy merch drop, and I'm excited to say that the 2025 winter drop is finally ready. We now have 30 uniquely designed pieces that really reflect what American Alchemy is all about. This drop includes epic t-shirts, long sleeves, crew necks, hoodies, tapered sweatpants, hats, totes, mugs, and tumblers. The Fukushima Japan

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