UAPGerb: “The New Area51 Is HERE in Utah!”

offensively against UAP. This technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's [music] different types of NHI with some man, some not man. That design actually was featured in the first ever episode of the X Files, which was allegedly based on true stories from John Duza. It's the same design. I'm here with Sammy UAP Gerb who runs I think my favorite channel uh on YouTube uh that covers UFOs literally uh the information density of your channel is

second to none. It's drinking from a fire hose of mindblowing facts. Like I think uh any 15-second clip from any one of your videos could be its own entire video um on on on various other channels that are kind of kind of slower and less less fast-paced. I'm just so impressed by you and I'm I'm grateful to call you a friend and I'm really excited to have this conversation. We had another conversation um and it looks like that might go up on my [ __ ] this channel um

where we're trying to like foster really cool kind of community engagement, have conversations that kind of take it to the next level when it comes to UFOs. But uh this follow-up should get crazier because UFO world has gone nuts since we last spoke. So, uh it's an honor to have you here, man. Yeah, thanks so much and I'm happy to be back. I mean, we recorded last time in November. Since then, we had the hearings, we had like the Soul Foundation, we had Jake coming forward. We've had so much to touch on. So, like you and I talked about u got this back

large, egg-shaped, featured some ubiquitous features that we see in other Where is operation laser strike? Operation Laser Strike was an anti-narco operation in Peru. So there were like uh groundbased radar systems from US intelligence to track like drug running planes and so forth. And what year was this then? And so Jonathan Wagant, Lance Corpal at the time, basically was sent to uh kind of investigate a crash of an unknown, possibly foreign craft. and he and two other Marines, one Sergeant Allen and another person, found a crashed craft.

Uh it it the story is super interesting because it it features like mother of pearl effect on the the skin of the craft, liquid coming from the craft. Explain what mother of pearl effect is. Kind of like oil on water. um something that that Jake and others also kind of described unique features of the shimmering of uh kind of the craft skin and also we gant spoke of what he assumed to be bodies in the craft with kind of an arm hanging out of the craft. He's only ever done two interviews, one in 2001 for Steven Greer, one in 2023

under I think Dan Willis so he is a really interesting person. Are you in touch with him? Yes. Jonathan Wagant is one of the nicest people I've ever met in my entire Uh he he's a really good guy. Do you find him beyond reproach as a Yes, I fully believe Jonathan Wayan's There's small details that kind of uh prove to aid in other research. Uh the reason I covered him and Michael together in a video besides just the fact they were Marines is they both talked about a team present. Of course,

in Michael's case, he talked about a humanmade craft that he encountered. But let's Yeah, let's back up real quick. So you're saying so ways this Peru case and then just for the audience Michael Herrera is this case in Indonesia with this marine unit right and they uh see this sort of I guess he calls it vanta uh uh eightgone shape which Jake Barber describes as well uh craft hovering above the treetops. He he kind of closes in on it and then this like really elite paramilitary unit then basically takes

his his whole unit into into into sort of custody. Yeah. And um kind of uh uh reprimands them. And then he thinks that this whole thing is part of some sort of psionic asset trafficking scheme where uh UFO legacy programs are actually taking people in third world countries like Indonesia back to the US in order to summon craft. I mean the whole thing well initially he thought it was human trafficking and and we'll get into this in a few minutes. It was when he gave

his testimony at when Michael Herrera gave his testimony at the 2023 uh Steven Greer National Press Club show. That's when Jake Barber was sitting in the audience and said, "I know about this." And and contacted Michael. We back channelneled it. That was us. We back channelneled that. That was you. That was me. Oh my god. But in Michael and Jonathan's encounters, so Jonathan said he saw an extraterrestrial craft or a non-human intelligence craft. Michael has stated unlike the error report which lies about this that he saw a humanmade craft.

However, there are some similar elements in in both aspects. The crash recovery team and in Jonathan's story, some of them wore DOE lettered rain jackets and there were other seemingly military operators in black fatigues. They spoke with American dialect but featured no insignia. This was the same thing that Michael described. Michael described a little further by stating that these men back in 2009 had really advanced M4 rifles with, you know, beautiful rangefinders and Yeah. Kind of like a what he described to be like a modern cell phone to kind

of scan their identification and so forth. And so there were some very similar elements and that's kind of why I covered those two people together now. And that's pretty wild, right? In 200 what was it 2009? Yeah, that's like you know pretty shortly after the iPhone was released. So, and then so do you have any sense of what these elite, you know, paramilitary groups like who they're working on behalf of? Is it UFO Legacy Program? Is it the Department of Energy? I know that's been speculated at times or I've reached I think they're two different teams to be quite honest. The

Because Jonathan, so Jonathan described a team of guys in camouflage with weapons, the black fatigue, sorry, DOE rain jackets and also men in hazmat suits. So this must have been a speciallyesed crash retrieval team to contain biologics spillage possibly hazardous materials. You know if you analyze other cases in history the 1974 coyame alleged crash and some of the majestic documents there have been occasions where um toxic elements have seeped from from crash retrievals and so

forth seeped in and UFO lore. Yes, it seems like Michael, the team he was dealing with, is the same team that Jake Barber is familiar with. And this is like a a deep black former JC Joint Special Operations Command, Tier One Operators, former Delta, the SEAL Team 6, Intelligence Support Activity, 24th and these guys are bad eggs who are okay with with hurting people. Um, then this is likely uh strictly private teams. Um,

and who, so who does it roll up to? Because this is I was trying to talk to Jake about this and it's like there's an ongoing FBI investigation, so he can't say much. And then I did get him to say, well, you know, you could probably guess, you know, if you had two guesses on the aerospace prime contractor front, like, you know, can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals? Um, look man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try.

There you go. [laughter] And then, so my guess is, this is me talking, would be like Locked in Northrup, but like there's this other element of like Department of Energy, like who in the government does this roll up to? You hear stuff like the CIA's director of science and technology, you know, somebody like Glenn Gaffne would be involved. Back in the day, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was probably involved in this sort of stuff. But who's in charge from the government perspective now? Gosh, that's a great question. And I think it's probably a very small small

portion of people. I think like you talked about elements of DOE and um intelligence, CIA, and I think even more so than CIA modern day, the National Security Agency, NSA. Y we know that the CIA deals with human or human intelligence and we know the NSA deals with sigant or signals intelligence. Uh as far as why I also say the NSA. So in in my projects I use as much publicly available research as humanly possible. I I don't really like to say well a source told me this, a source told me this even though there's you know quite

a bit of people I I talk to that you know will never make it on a video or never reveal their identity public. But um this individual was in US Army Office of Public Affairs. He served in the mid2010s and he said I like I'm not really afraid of the CIA but what I'm terrified of is the NSA. So I think if I had to wager it'd be elements of the NSA pulling a lot of Well the sort of public facing review group you know the all domain anomalies you know uh anomalous research organization or office or I always screw

it up organization I one of them whatever uh you know the main the main sort of outfit studying UFOs from a public you know perspective. Uh the new director was a former director of the National Security Administration, the NSA, John John Kslosski. And so it does beg this question, you know, yeah, how much of this is is, you know, I often think the the overrated elements of UFOs are just just focused on like meta materials, you know, that's like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. And then

actually it's this way deeper sort of thing around like human like signal like the fact that we're like probably getting downloads and stuff. And actually there's a book called Above Black by a guy named Dan Sherman and he goes he's like sort of recruited into this like nondescript you know NSA and I've heard some from an an extremely credible source high up in government where if I were to give you this person's title it's just completely beyond reproach saying that that program probably

existed. He so he's in he recruited to this like NSA you know nondescript building and basically told to do all sorts of weird mind matter experiments like collapse a sine wave he's given these like binaural beats and then like basically he's used as like a sort of you know human antenna for like alien um and it's part of this thing he calls project preserve destiny and he says that he's genetically been manipulated in the womb and more and more I interviewed yesterday a psionic asset

who was recruited through the gate program through these gifted student programs or whatever. And so more I think more and more is coming out of the woodwork around like kids and gifted people and like clairvoyance being approached at a very young age for downloads and signals that they're getting. And this guy named Andre Puharich who I believe he wrote a book called the sacred mushroom and he had these space kids back in the day where he'd recruit all these kids to upstate New York and he had this roundt

institute in Maine and it was the space kids were meant to basically get downloads from and and Star Trek came from one of these downloads. the the Gene Rodenberry was inspired by this woman named uh Phyllis Schl uh Phyllis Schlean Schllayman I don't know Phyllis something yeah and that sort of inspired all of Star Trek and and EG&G I think actually picked up a lot of the work there and so it's super fascinating that's similar to like Tim Taylor right

he said some of the ideas for his businesses came via like unknown downloads to his his head isn't that what Diana Pulka has kind of said around him and his Yeah, that he engaged in protocols to basically download all sorts of information and and you know he uh I believe started a biotech company called Vivx Biotech and sold it for 88 million bucks or something crazy like that. And um he claims that a lot of that was derived from downloads that he got and and I I

spoke to him for a very brief period of time over over the phone once. He sort of disappeared on me after that. And you know, his whole thing was like, you know, don't use your phone and tap in and like, you know, and it all felt like on the one hand cliche, but maybe actually really fundamental important advice as far as, you know, being able to gain access to, you know, better better stuff or whatever from I don't know, the whole thing's really trippy. Well, it's been an interesting year so far, right? With all kind of the mention of of psionics. I mean, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people. Uh, when I when I

recruited to the US Army's foreign technology division. This isn't to be confused with the Air Force's Foreign Technology Division. Two separate things. Um, under Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau. Now, the Foreign Technology Division, there's there's no records of it. It's similar to the Army's interplanetary phenomenon unit that probably only exists through institutional record. There's no record. But, uh, in Corso's testimony, which by the way, we know that existed. Correct. Yeah. the interplanetary phenomena unit. We know that that existed, which is crazy. We knew that a group named that existed between what 47

and 50 or something. Yeah, 47 to 50. And I that was first confirmed in 1986 to UFO researcher William Steinman. In the Majestic documents, there's an IPU report, interplanetary phenomenon unit report, and an IPU field order. Um, two documents still disputed, but so those are disputed. But the Steinman thing, I believe Steinman contacted uh somebody in the federal government to gain more access and they basically said the records had been deleted. Yeah. And that it only existed in institutional memory. That's right. But it existed. And so that is that's just so fascinating. And you know, I'll get back to Corso,

but you know, maybe we'll talk about the IPU documents later because that actually talks about like a crash retrieval um that killed technicians at Sandia National Labs because of the danger of the crash. But so Corso worked for the foreign technology division. This is not in dispute. You can look through his official military records that said he was the chief of the foreign technology division, not out of Wright Patterson Air Force Base. Um, but the the crux of his testimony is that under Arthur Trudeau in 1958 to 1962, we saw the golden age of Army R&D. And this is where materials recovered from the Roswell crash and possibly other

crashes, maybe Aztec, maybe crash at Corona, Plains of St. Augustine so forth that the US Army would partner with the US industry to figure out how these technologies work and seed them back primarily to help the US military and secondly help the American people if necessary. Well, we know we never saw the American people if necessary. But it wasn't just to seed the technologies. It was also to to improve upon existing technologies. You know, there's a lot of contention here because some of these technologies were passive night vision systems and guys like Colonel John B. Alexander who you know has made some

lies about the majestic documents before um dispute this and stuff like the transistor and integrated circuit u but I like to focus on other stuff because the the golden age of army R&D has a lot of really interesting research we can parallel today and talk about later but Corso also states during this time that uh the foreign technology division was trying to use recovered technology to use human brain waves to guide ICBM missiles and ballistic really yeah in today's world staying informed can feel like navigating a maze of headlines, each with its own agenda.

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need to put this [ __ ] out. It's not No, it is. It is. Oh, is it? He said he's sitting on three hours and maybe 20 minutes. I think a little bit public. It's published through Greer, weirdly Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. So I think more can come out. And he was like he basically James Fox said, "Gun to my head, I get shot if I'm wrong. I think Philip J. Corso was legit." And so that's fascinating. He had a coowwriter that might have kind of co-opted his process in some way because there is stuff in that book that's I think clearly false. Yeah. like the if

you look at the tech tree around integrated circuits and semiconductors I don't think you need alien intervention to describe there's I think a Munich like patent on a transistor that goes back to the 30s. Yeah. Um, but I do think we saw this step-wise leap in, you know, interesting technology around this time, especially in material science. And I do believe the basic Roswell story that like some sort of you know this memory metal and I believe Jesse Marcel this air air force flight surgeon

that uh you know may have handled this this you know memory metal material and that it probably did make its way to right airfield at the time which right airfield would have been the place you would have taken it because they were basically reverse engineering adversary tech. They had like Russian MiGs later on but well in 1943 they they successfully reverse engineered a German pulse jet engine. So they were already successfully reverse engineering adversary retrieved technology. So it makes total sense that you'd take something there. Um and then basically

the the to complete the loop on um Philip J. Corso he says that that material is taken to Rosco Hill or Hill Encoder. Rosco Hiller is the first director of the CIA. makes the call that uh Corso should be in charge of doing this out to uh basically civil side for civil side use cases, you know, to to uh you know, for commercial purposes. So like Bell Labs would be like the main place. Bell Labs, Sperry Rand, which went defunct and its divisions went to Northrup, Loheed Martin, Rathon and

And so Philip Corso actually has a uh it's called Dawn of a New Age. And so for my research on Corso, I read the two side by side and went through every single difference. Remarkably different. For example, in Day After Roswell, there's a passage about how Corso intimidated a CIA director to off himself, which is absurd. And of course, you you don't see that in the Oh, they just they sigh oped him, man. They they and they and he had 24 hours to edit it. Yeah. What else? What else? The the first chapter of the book is

like a detailed description of Roswell as if somebody was there. Uh, Corso never never talks about that stuff. He he doesn't know what happened at Roswell. Uh, he just takes the materials. He's he's he's seen. Another example is uh continued mentions to the majestic documents in Day after Roswell. They're only passively referenced once in um Dawn of a New Age. However, in Dawn of a New Age, Corso also states interesting stuff that he found um after his time in the foreign technology division. Maybe we'll get

to I think restricted access or or confidential in 1960ome and then uh and then completely unclassified later. But so Wilbert B. Smith took that and and met with Sarbacher and these guys again to really get involved with UFOs. and Sarbacher basically said you like I can connect you to the proper American authorities to engage with more UFO research if you can a become cleared and b give something back and so Wilbert B Smith he would later on go to spearhead project magnet which was Canada's first

UFO investigation group followed up by project second story but when he finally met again with the Americans he learned other things such as um you know Vanavar Bush spearhead the group he knew that a couple more things but he also said that the US authorities studying UFOs were obsessed with the mental phenomena that accompanied UFO research. So later on down the line, there was also a gentleman, Dr. Eric A. Walker. Uh this guy is super esteemed. He was Penn State University's president. Uh one of the smartest smartest people of the

entire 20th century. He was named in a conversation to William Steinman, UFO researcher. That one of the attendees of these meetings in the 1950s about UFO crash retrievals was Dr. Eric A. Walker. Um, Dr. Eric A. Walker would stay silent for a long time. He was first contacted in, I think, 1984 by William Steinman. He returned William Steinman's letter really cryptically with a type thing saying like, "Go, go, go, leave me alone." Um, but eventually he would kind of meet with Steinman and another researcher named Henry as a deell.

Uh, during these meetings, he would say some interesting stuff like he was present at the 1965 Kexsburg UFO crash. Um, and yes, that he did attend these meetings. But when William Steinman asked him about or maybe it was Henry Esadel asked him about Majestic 12, he said he knew about Majestic 12, he'd known about them for 40 years. And he retorted with a question saying, "What do you know about ESP, extra sensory perception, unless you know about I think he said the sixth sense Yeah. You would never be let in. Well, it was almost

he run, you know, research and development, you know, under under Vanavar Bush, he was uh head of Washington National Labs. He was this like atomic energy expert at the highest level in the US. And he was kind of scrubbed. This is Robert Sarbacher. He was kind of scrubbed from the internet as well. And he was known for having like an IQ of, you know, 200 plus or something. Just brilliant guy. Um and uh and so he's he's just this fascinating character who is also very close with Thomas Towns and Brown who's this anti-gravity inventor at the time better than anybody.

Well, in in 1956 when Thomas Townsen Brown does his um experiment in Paris proving the Biffield Brown effect and that this this works in a vacuum and I think showing some sort of interesting coupling between electromagnetism and gravity. he uh comes back to the US and he's picked up in a black Cadillac by Robert Sarbacher who he's very very close to and so there's there's a lot of you know connection there um and so you had a you had a third so this is so Eric Walker Robert Sarbacher both corroboration for this sort of ESP psionic thing what else

and then another thing um I'm sure many viewers will know Leonard Stringfield who's one of the greatest crash retrieval researchers probably the greatest of all time uh in the 70s and 80s when nobody was doing this he was researching ing crash retrievals, he was mainly focusing on witness testimony in his files. Also in crash retrieval status reports 1 through 7, as well as when he passed on and Michael Schat went to his archives in Cincinnati and read through the rest of his reports, he found numerous mentions of witnesses who had observed recovered UFOs and kind of cutaway diagrams accompanying the UFOs and how in certain

retrieval cases, there would seem to be like a headband or headband transceiver uh worn by the operators of the craft that somehow would pilot said craft. And that the same thing Corso said, right in interviews with him, he he said that the operators of specifically the Roswell craft were part of the guidance system. So it it doesn't seem too far-fetched when Jake talks about an an asset, a psionic person being able to use their mind to to commandeer the flight controls of a craft. When we look at

collecting data, one of the areas that we look to collect data is through a psionic asset, which is an individual who's trained in remote viewing, um, psychic abilities, telekinesis, that type of thing. I'm still unfamiliar with the physics of really how to wrap my head around this fully, but it's not out of the question to me. It's it's it's based in a lot of research spanning back to 1960s. Yeah. No, I I think it's the it's the future of physics and I think it's just

so like when you have an anomaly in physics, if you can't turn it into math and you can't instrumentalize it into technology, I think it goes into this category called an anomaly and you just don't know what to do with it. And then the anomaly usually or often will get vindicated in a new theory. But until that anomaly gets vindicated in a new theory, you just have to say it's a weird anomaly and we don't know what to do with it. And so parasychology I think is you know parasychology being the

theory you just don't get vindication for the the anomaly and so that's that's my take on it now it's not like physics outside of that branch has been productive at all in the last 70 years. Like it's it's actually been extremely Well, who knows what sort of progress has been made that's been kind of kept under wraps. You know, we have SRRI and sic with the Stargate program and you and I have personal experience with Randy who [clears throat] um you know as a as a Green Beret was at the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane went underground via contractor SIC and was shown technology that purportedly

responded to human consciousness. Uh we get under there uh door opens. We go through a security type checkpoint. I remember the first thing that stood out to me was that the it was significantly more modern than everything up top and that that was odd. Now anybody who's saying that the Navy hasn't studied this stuff is is uh not fully knowledgeable on the subject going back to 2011 and 2012 the Navy the ONR specifically office of naval research was publishing studies on a six sense within humans. So the Navy, SIC, uh, SRRI, Stargate, all

of these guys are are pretty interested. I mean, we have US Army Insom General Albert Stubblebind who wanted to basically cognitively enhance soldiers. The movie The Men Who Stare at Goats is is made after Stubblebind. Yeah. After Stubble, Lyn Buchanan, all the Yeah. the the whole uh Stargate program which was ran from 1972 to '95 and systematically you know kind of employed these psychic spies which would gather intel which was hugely consequential for the United I just interviewed actually Joseph McMongle who

figured out this you know novel uh uh Russian submarine I think in 78 or 79 and that was extremely critical for you know uh the US during the cold war and he was thanked at like the highest level I Robert Baker actually was like sort of very against his intel to begin with and then he realized that it was sort of vindicated [laughter] after after McMongle sort of figured this out and he won the Legion of Merit due to you know uh the very productive activity he engaged in. So I do think the office of naval intelligence is the oldest uh uh

deployment to various countries that he wants to lay low on because it's not the Green Beret way, you know. He does he doesn't want to brag about It's not the CO way, but you know, there's a number of people in his graduating class who who've died. He's gone through a lot. And um yeah, he was stationed at he was an 18 Bravo weapons sergeant, you know, an expert on all various weapon systems. And he was taken underground to this deep underground military base, which we know exists like across the country. That's not a question. that's not a question. And that's a fascinating topic to get into as well.

And once you talk about Randy, we can we can absolutely get into dumbs. Well, well, I just want to hear you because, you know, there's so I got a lot of flack for that video and I I've [snorts] spoken to his colleagues. I've spoken to, you know, uh two of his Green Beret buddies now. Yeah. I have their DD214s. Like, you know, I know a little bit about them and their background. And I know that Randy is not lying. And there are people out there on the internet questioning his service, which is insane. And and I honestly shameful.

Yeah. You know, if if there's anything substantive you have to say there or on the testimony, fine. Because he also has pictures of him at Crane. It's absurd. At the year, right, when he saw the technology, he's a war hero. And you just don't don't you know, that's insane. Um and then yeah there are questions he has about his experience you know the off-world technologies division like like he doesn't know what that was that human techn was that was that you know non-human intelligence you know tech.

After that we moved on down another hallway and got into an area that had a marking on the wall and said off-world Said offworld technology. that yeah that was that was where the weird [ __ ] started. [laughter] Um, so yeah, we go into into the room and uh the the one room these significantly higher level of technology like the lighting even looked, you know, everything was just it was more uh

everything was it was just a different vibe, man. I don't know how else to describe it. Like I said, the lighting was different. The walls had like maybe I assume some type of Faraday material. like everything was just a higher level of of detail, you know. Um the first object was a [snorts] basketball-sized sphere and it was above a podium and it was looked like it was just levitating above the podium. Levitating above the podium.

What makes you think that that was non-human? Well, a I don't I don't think it's a valid criticism as well to say that because there was some sort of sign that labeled off World Technologies division that that's completely nonsensical histori. I've seen that criticism leveraged around and uh how do you like that's a that's quite a baseless claim to make that a that a division would not be named. Sure, it may seem a bit strange, but we're talking about UFO legacy programs and deep underground military bases that that span the continental United States. Uh, so that's not an accurate criticism

to me. But the technologies Randy saw, I want to focus specifically on the sphere that he said reacted to human consciousness. There is a mutual friend of ours that has observed that as well. And that is Jordan of Skywatchers if if we can talk about that. Yeah. When he was involved in the gate program as a late teen, uh, intelligence or military brass and and suits and, you know, eggghheads brought in a case, opened it up, and there was the same exact sphere. That story continues to pop up. Yeah. It's either a sphere or a

piece of metal and they want to see I just interviewed somebody yesterday and I can talk about this. It's gonna come out. This guy Shane Freaks old vet symposium on Twitter and he talks about being shown a sphere. And so it's the same thing shown a sphere and seeing how the person would react and if they have some sort of psionic connection to it and it's kind of the same thing as the Jake Barber story where he he he locks on mentally to in this case the agon craft but there is a mental connection and so that that is and then there sic I believe is on record studying quote

unquote psychotronic technology there's like a long history they coined their own terms for like telekinesis and psychokinesis uh when they kind of bought up the research from SRRI so sic he took it and ran with it. And they were operating Stargate, the psychic spy program in PaloAlto, like at the end of its existence. So yeah, there's a there's a lot of history there that just corroborates where if you don't know the history, you're going to hear this Green Beret saying, "I saw a sphere levitating in front of a podium and I'm mentally locked onto it." And you're going to be like, "That's [ __ ] crazy." Yeah,

but you need to update your priors and like actually dive deep into the the history of this stuff, which I mean you're like the tip of the spear on, but I I often feel like I'm out on an island where you have very few people to talk [laughter] to who like get who don't realize that this stuff actually isn't crazy if you're engaging in solid beijian reasoning. you maybe you have to think probabilistically and it's not, you know, 100% this is definitely real or whatever, but like it your base case is that it actually is real because there's there's a lot of evidence around

Yeah. And like the other testimonies we mentioned too are incredibly interesting. The story with Jordan, he and I spoke about that long before any research with Randy was ever made public. So, initially when I made contact with Randy, I went around kind of looking for any other story that may involve some sort of sphere, some sort of basketball-sized metal uh that might interact with people. And this also like almost hearkens back even to how we opened up with the story of Jonathan Wan. When he got in close proximity to the crash craft he saw, whether it was the beans or the craft itself, he felt

an overwhelming sense of of calmness and communication his head in his head. And we hear that from Jake Barber as well with with the eight gun. You hear it in pretty much every alien abduction account as this sort of mental telepathic connection. And I I do find it interesting certain people are down for like breaking exotic phys, you know, breaking physics in the form of exotic flight principles and like metamaterials, but for whatever reason. So that that like breaks our reality there. But they're not down for the mental thing. And it's like why is that a bridge too far? If you've crossed

this bridge, this bridge is crazy. So you have to open up you know all possibilities at that point and again think probabilistically. So maybe that that second bridge is slightly lower probability than the first bridge but I think people don't realize just how limited the their thinking is around a lot of this stuff. Yeah. It's like what we talked about like my research mainly focuses on legacy programs but I can't discount the research done at Stargate the psionic stuff. I can't leave that out of the equation. I still need to study it always when it arises. Of course. Yeah. And you know and

sometimes those bleed over into the the realms I study as well because you know we were talking about Stubble who was interested in psychic spies and on the other hand Stubble also has really interesting research into like UFO crash retrieval and legacy reverse engineering programs. So on one hand he's kind of engaging with the more psychic aspect of the phenomenon. On the other hand he's dealing with the really tangible program level stuff. I mean uh Stubble created the US Army INSCOM intelligence and security commands. um special operations unit, the intelligence support activity.

And I think 2002, right around the time the CIA OGA was created, the intelligence support activity, which is a really really like clandestine secretive combat group, kind of like the CIA soldiers almost, was brought over to JCO, the joint special operations command. And if we adhere to some excellent reporting by Chris Sharp and others, the CIA OGA and its creation in 2002 and JOC are utilized to perform crash retrievals and so forth. M yeah yeah yeah there's a JCO continues to come up you know as like they sort of go

in you know and is how what's the connection between Delta Force and JC is Delta Force is a unit in JO I think it's [clears throat] it's the 24th STS out of the air force SEAL team 6 out of the Navy um Delta out of army and ISA out of Army as well there might be another unit or two I don't want to butcher that but those are some of the primary units and my buddy Matt Pines made the connection that Lou Alzando is actually part of this group called Gray Fox. Which is, you know, deep military intelligence, but specifically it's like going into extremely sensitive sites,

you know, for JC. Yeah. Um and so, you know, he might know a thing or two about UFOs from that, not just the OAP, a tip, you know, whatever that experience was around 2007, 2012. absolutely. And another interesting thing about Stubblebind while we're talking about him in the memoir Dawn of a New Age by Philip J. Corso Corso stated he learned that in 1986 there was a group created called the UFO working group which was created to study and kind of manipulate UFOs reverse

engineering and so forth and this was funded by the leader of US Army INCOM which is of course Albert Stubble and to top things off to make it even more interesting so that's 1986 in 1984 um Stubble left the US Army he then went on to serve as like a chairman or a board member of BDM which was a defense contractor bought up by TRW um which was then bought up by Northrup Grumman. But in 1985 uh Albert Stubble and BDM at their corporate headquarters in Mlean, Virginia created what they called the advanced theoretical working group. Yes.

offers him a big sum of money. Yeah. to to like join legacy efforts or like join the program or something or what's what's the story there? So, I I think this I think because of Greer's own ego and like I have my feelings about Greer, both pros and cons, he really he likes to frame this as uh oh, Stubble offered me $2 billion to shut up and talk about UFOs. But I I I think according to documents and emails on the DPI archive, that $2 billion, which still is an egregious sum of money, was to purchase Steven Greer's

institution, Cetti, and integrate it into Stubble's work. So it wasn't just to buy off Steven Greer, it was to basically purchase his whole institution. And this was in 1992. That's crazy. So, what what do you think was so valuable of about what Steven Greer was doing in 1992 that would I mean maybe that was a fake offer or like I I I don't know if that's real, but the real meat of the the Greer saga and the Greer information starts to pick up around 97. Um it's really hard to track down what

Greer was doing in uh pre-97. Was he was a doctor? Yeah, he was a practicing trauma doctor uh I think at an ER. don't really know how he got interested in the subject, but he does say at the age of 18 and he said this in his 2024 September event that he was contacted by like a cosmic intelligence um and told to basically save the world. He's brought a lot of exposure to the UFO world and he should be really vindicated and he's worked his ass off but um yeah can be weird vibes I think at times. I [laughter] think there was a really

big shift in Greer. So uh you know he talks about his archive release the DPI archives disclosure project initiative archives. He says it would take somebody two to four years to go through it. That's nonsense. I've gone through the whole thing like eight times. [laughter] But so in 1997, I don't know what Greer was doing before that, but in 1997, UFO researcher Bill Hamilton, William Hamilton III, who wrote the book Cosmic Top Secret I talked about in relation to Northrup Grumman, he had been in contact with Greer. And this UFO researcher who

I think is one of the most underappreciated people in the entire realm. He introduced Greer to various witnesses that would feature on the 2001 Disclosure Project uh National Press Club event where various government and private sector whistleblowers would Some of these included some redacted names who I've I've come to learn about those people. They're not public. And then Mark McCandalish and Brad Sorenson. Oh yeah. The two primary witnesses. Brad Sorenson being the primary witness of the 1988 Norton Air Force show um where an alien

reproduction vehicle was shown off and Mark Mccandalish, the person who created the line art drawings and so forth. And by the way, the term alien reproduction vehicle that most people associate with Greer was coined by uh Sorenson himself and relayed in Hamilton's 1992 book Cosmic Top Secret. He he got this wrong. He said alien replicated vehicle, but even so. And around the same time, I talked about this in the in around Northrup as well, Greer met a person named ah. Um, he's since spilled the name in his archive. I just won't repeat it. We'll call it ah, but ah was I guess

much saw a lot of UFO programs shipped over from Area 51. And he always quotes that 35 to 40% of programs at Area 51 were moved to Dougway in Utah. Well, if you look at ah's testimony in 2000, the year 2000 recorded, he says the exact same thing. So, Greer has really built upon like most of us, like all of us, he he stood on the shoulders of of giants and important people before him. But there seemed to be a a real shift when he gained that sort of popularity where Greer would really really focus on

the C5 stuff, which can really rub people the wrong way. Um, and I think that's really mostly due to kind of the monetary incentive around it. like he's doing C5 cruises and what is C5 sort of summoning. It's psionic. Yeah, psionic stuff. Yeah. But I think a little more spiritual like more focus on love and light. And Greer's also been busted for posting photos of like cactuses and stuff and saying they're they're entities. Yeah. He's it's it's this mixed bag and it's it's it's somewhat unfortunate. But you you I mean you have to express your

sort of gratitude to him, but then it's also like sometimes you wish it came in better form. Yeah. you know, because I've never spoken to Greer. I've never been in contact with him. I don't plan to, but I've been badmouthed by him. I know that. What did he what did he say about you? So, when Greer releases DPI archive, um, and I I went through that and looked at all the accompanying files because with each witness ID that's redacted, a lot of the time there's there's emails. I would look through these and I I would say like, why is why does Greer get to

talk to these people and nobody else does? So, I would spend weeks tracking people down um and finding out who they were and contacting them. There there've been multiple that I have, but at the tail end of 2024, there was a recent entry on on the archive. This was a brand new person. This was the Army public affairs person that I uh talked about recently. Um I contacted this person. We struck up a relationship. This guy's an amazing person. But right when we started talking, he was suspicious of my motives, of course, cuz I reach out and I just said, "Hi, I found your name this way, this way, this way." Because whenever I reach out to

somebody from the archive, I say, "Hey, this is where the breach of security happened. This is how I found your name. It will not be shared. I'm I'm I'm not interested in contacting anybody else." But so this guy and I started talking and we hung up on the phone one day and he called me back 10 minutes later. He said, "I need to like I need to know what you're doing." I said, "Excuse me?" He said, "I just talked I just talked to Greer and he said, "You're an intelligence like you're an intelligence asset." I said, "What?" So apparently this guy when we hung up off the phone, he then contacted Greer because he was still in contact with Greer. And he gave

Greer my full name, which I would prefer if he didn't have wouldn't have done that, but that's okay. And then Greer said I was an intelligence asset. So that's that's my one. And then he said you were not an intelligence. He cleared it up. Or he say he said you were an intelligence. No, Greer said I was an intelligence. What is he basing that off? He's just [ __ ] saying that you're an Yeah, I've never talked to the guy. And and for the record, on record, you'll say you don't have a security No, I don't have a security clearance. I've never been in the military. I've never been in intelligence. Graduated

with a degree in engineering and I moved What? What do you do? Do you have like a day job or is or is YouTube your full Yeah. Like mechanical engineering, service engineering. It's It's very boring. I I'd like to move uh to this more full-time cuz I for for what can you say? Medical devices formerly uh renewable energy like wind turbines and such. Okay. Okay. Normal dude. Yeah. Yeah. Normal dude. But that that's been my but he's going to have a massive channel and do this full-time and I hope so. I mean there's just a there's a lot of work uh in this subject that I think needs to be revisited because as

much as I hate to say it and I'm sure you realize it as well there has been elements of circular reporting in in this subject. Tons, tons. And I'm sure like, you know, I've been guilty of it at times. Like I don't I don't think you can uh thoroughly investigate all of this stuff and get it's it's all so crazy and weird. You're going to get a little bit wrong along the way. And so like it's it's going to be this dialectical process where you have to wade through the [ __ ] and just have open conversations. And I think as long

as people think you're a good faith actor and you're like earnestly showing your thought process to everybody and you're like getting closer to an approximation of truth, that's all you can do. Um and so and then just saying like admitting if you're wrong and like if somebody comes at you with something substantive, just like accepting that and incorporating it into your worldview. And I think the other tricky thing is like people can say when you cover this topic that you are shilling a thing and you can or grifting which is absurd. Like I've

I do have like a company that like encapsulates my show. I've never taken money out of the like I've never like I mean money has come in through like sponsors and that sort of thing because I do want this to be sustainable. life costs and like I'm down to make money on it long term, but like what I was doing before was definitely more of a clear path to making like a lot of money than this. If anything, I've lost a lot of money over the last couple [laughter] years. It's kind of funny like but yeah

I I I don't think you can do anything else other than like earnestly kind of move forward and just be humble and cool and like people sense that and yeah I I really from from what I try and do I see a big gap in modern day in in terms of investigating primarily legacy programs and witness testimony u because historically like wherever you look uh wherever you look in this subject Greer kind of has this pause in post like 1995 cuz even he is entwined in stuff like the Wilson Davis memo going back that

whole new massive, you know, swath of people. And I I and I think we're all like pretty like I don't know, we all have egos, but they're we're pretty like team players like and so I I love that. I think that's really cool. And it's going to be like a new era of this stuff where we can just like work together and like find the truth and compliment each It's really refreshing because any it's really refreshing to work together because I'm sure as like everybody who's done some some research in this subject knows like any sort of disclosure is not

really going to come willingly. um especially when it comes to uh UFO legacy program operations. So kind of working together and tackling cases and stuff like that is is really brilliant to do. And Chris is a great guy. You introduced me to him at the hearings and you know the second he and I met he and I were talking about Bob Lazar because he did the interview with Luigi from Project Gravitar. Yep. He's spoke very highly of him and Luigi's super cool. I've talked to him. He's awesome. So this is this new documentary about Bob Lazar. Bazar is obviously if you've made it this far in the interview, you definitely know who Bazar is, but he is um you know famous

for claimed to have you know reverse engineered UFOs at Area 51 S4 and you know one of Rogan's biggest episodes, this wild controversy, some holes in his background, but like spoken to Luigi and Chris and I they've actually really helped me update my take on Bazar to the point where I think he worked at Area 51 for sure. Area 51 or Uh, I think he for sure worked at Area 51, probably worked at S4. And then I'm not sure that what he was

shown wasn't shown to him deliberately and he wasn't given highlevel frameworks as sort of passage material and recruitment for Legacy, which doesn't make covering his story invalid at all. It makes it almost more interesting. But to me, it has to be covered through this like meta lens. Yeah. if that makes any sense. Well, through this the skepticism, but also like there's probably some real stuff Yeah. I mean, I've historically stayed away from Bob because I'm so biased towards wanting to believe him. You know, growing up, I I would always

hear about his his testimony. I was the first to buy Area 51 or UFOs and flying saucers from um Jeremy Corbel and his book Dreamland. The more I I study other things, the more interest I find specifically not Bob Lazar reverse engineering the sports model propulsion systems or reading about the files and bodies and so forth, but specifically around the facility S4, which like I have good reason to believe that S4 south of or just southwest of Papoose uh mountain range, right by Papoose Lake is a is a real place. Well, and what's what's your good reason

to believe that? So, a there's a couple public testimonies around it. There's uh that I I don't really want to focus on but like Dan Barish um uh Edward F Edgar Fuche who claimed that S4 ran the Defense Advanced Research Center the DAR which was found in um a apa document in the 70s to be proposed to exist which was an underground facility uh never really proven to exist but uh I've actually I've I've talked to one person who has been to S4 and another person who said they they won't

comment on if it exists. The person who who had been to S4 said he didn't see anything like crazy or extraterrestrial. He was just went in the facility, but he did say some things that are similar to what Bob Lazar and others would say, meaning like colored pathways to show where you can walk and stuff. Yeah, I think we should all wait for Luigi's documentary, Project Gravitar, cuz he's told me things offline that out of respect for him, I'm not going to but that give me conviction that he did work at S4 around stuff that's gotten cor that will get corroborated in the documentary. So it's pretty cool.

Um, so yeah, I'm I'm I'm Chris Chris has as well. And Chris is coming at this whole thing from an angle of like he's a, you know, famous magician before this debunking other magicians. And so he comes at this whole thing through a more skeptical storytelling lens and um he thinks that there's there's definitely something something to the Lazar story and that he he worked at S4. Yeah. I mean, if that story is true, then then that's one example of a deep underground military base with a hanger built into the side of a mountain, which is really interesting. Yep. Cuz deep underground military

bases, a lot of people associate those with conspiracies for like human trafficking or stuff like that, but those are those are a very real concept. There's like a very rich rich history of deep underground military bases that started in the 1950s and 1960s out of Air Force Project Rand, which eventually became the Rand Corporation, which is a fedally funded research and development center that is likely up to their eyeballs and UFO uh legacy programs. But why do you think there's so many things that like when you talk I'm like we need to query this and this and like

[laughter] why is Rand why is RAND so so one of the things that I I talk about all the time that I think is really overlooked in um legacy operations is everybody likes to talk about um the government intelligence or military and contractors um you know Northrup Lockheed Battel the piece that's missing the thing between them are the fedally funded research and development centers and the university affiliated research Arch centers. These are semi-private uh notfor-profit institutions that are are governmentowned. Examples of FFRDC's

would be places like the MITER Corporation, the Rand Corporation, Sandia National Labs, Lawrence Liverour. there's one at Penn State where Eric that's a university affiliated research and those are kind of another side of the same coin and we can talk about what I think uh based on some good intelligence that I I what I think these do. Um, university affiliated research centers are like the MIT soldier nanotechnology soldier program. Yeah. The University of Southern California Creative Research Institute And that's another really interesting

thing where I think Bob Lazar might have done something in and around the MIT. Well, like that whenever he comes up with Rogan, Rogan always says, "Oh, I'll tell you something offline where like it would make the MIT records being deleted make sense." And then he can never say it off online. could be a UARC. That would be my guess that there's probably some some interesting research, you know, that he was maybe involved in that like because that from way back in the day at MIT was you had Carl Compton

who was president of MIT who was rumored to be shown the craft at Wright Airfield uh with this sort of Anderson Trust these like you know CIA guys and and actually like be very involved in legacy UFO efforts. And so yeah, it's it's fascinating. And now we have this super soldier program. Yeah. And so and so so with those FFRDC's and and UARCs um what I think based on good intelligence is that the US military and intelligence sources split between the army, Navy and Air

Force will have a program whether that be technology exploitation, materials research, reverse engineering or flying of alien reproduction vehicles and direct connections will be made with the UARCs or FFRDC's. These will serve as the project manager performing subject matter expertise and research and development and that will bridge the gap to the contractors the defense corporations because mo most as far as as far as I'm aware most of the contractor personnel will not necessarily know what they're working

on. You know a famous example is the infographic show whistleblower where he talks about a guy at Texas Instruments getting a piece of metal and not knowing what he's working on. It's the middle management of these companies at the at the contractors that generally know what they're working on. Um like the security directors and so forth, but the FFRDC's and URC's allows kind of onestep removal between the the um the military and intelligence and the contractor. Well, but with MITER Corporation and Rand I you would think of them as having kind of the top of the pyramid view on

UFOs and that maybe we needed to take it back into the hands of the US or something said all sorts of interesting stuff. His son was the president of Rand Corporation for decades. So I find that somewhat interesting as well. And Thomas Townsen and Brown when he's doing his anti-gravity experiments the Rand Corporation shows up sees the experiments they have this meeting something changes after the Towns and brown his experiments just fail. something sort of, you know, nominally like they fail even though clearly they they hadn't failed,

right? And then to me it's clear there's some covert IP transfer that occurs where uh his anti-gravity technology gets transferred to Northrup Grumman via his investor who's a guy named Floyd Odlum who has a majority stake in And so there's but there's something around the Rand Corporation there too. Absolutely. Rand Miter, um, Sandia, you know, Sandia and Lawrence Liverour were accused by some people like Edgar Fuche of of actually reverse engineering propulsion for craft that would lead to like triangular ARV.

Um, but you also have to look at the time when a lot of these were made, specifically MITER and the Aerospace Corporation. They were founded in 1959 and 1960, the exact time of the golden age of army R&D under Corso. um who said that there were institutions also created to study uh extraterrestrial technology. And if you look what's what's weird and what parallels to modern day with the UARs and FFRDC's if you look at US Army research and development I this is going to sound so boring to so many people but if you look

at US Army uh primers for research and development from the 1950s and 1960s like read through all of their proposals you'll see under Trudeau when he was the chief of research and development for the army he proposed that the army work for kind of technology transfer and technology study with uh URIs university research institutes and IRIL's I think it is like independent research or something independent research laboratories similar which are similar concepts to the Uarks and FFRDC's made in the '90s. So we see these insane

parallels to to modern day and of course MITER was made out of project SAGE um which was a Lincoln Labs giant project to like make giant radar systems to to study ballistic missiles and so forth. Well, it's like if if you were doing any secret if we if we live in the world where any science is classified, which come on. Yeah, of course we there that and now like it's all coming out. You have people like and you know Mark Andre and Ben Horowitz go to the White House. They say we'll classify math and the AI just like we classified physics and like

you have Eric Weinstein, my for former colleague is you know constantly kind of opining on like this idea of the secret science branch. It's if you have to be stupid to not think that some science isn't classified if we live in the world where it is classified. That stuff is going on in the places where we uphold the most secrecy which is these DOE And so like I don't think it's like conspiratorial. It's like obviously if you're doing a high energy really intense physics you're probably also understanding

onlogical truths that the rest of the public don't understand. That's often the case. Like you start to understand things about reality due to some of these experimental effects where you're breaking the bounds of you know our reality in some sense you know uh uh through these you know high energy experiments like it makes sense that UFOs show up around nuclear weapons. It's high energy output and if we live in any sort of like timebound, you know, 3D bound, like if there's anything

outside of our what we perceive, you would be stress testing that every time you set a nuke off, you just would. So, it's like not that crazy. And yeah, I I'm with you there. And I I just think it's so interesting to try and investigate how players and and the government and military package these concepts and and these high energy experiments to to classify them and keep them out of public view, especially when it involves kind of extraterrestrials or non-human intelligence. And for for the for the

lab like they're doing a lot of frontier science at Oakidge. Many FFRDC's are owned by um Battel Memorial Labs or Triad National Security LLC, which one of those three is Battel. Battel's really interesting. I mean, they if if there's any uh group out there that is studying actual biologics, it's probably Battel. Um they run some sort of uh biological materials lab out of Fort And also a lot of really interesting classified work out at Dougway proving

he called me back and he said Sarbacher is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you. So I call Sarbacher. Sarbucker proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was dis was working on at the Battel Memorial Institute about how when when um electron microscopes became operative. He they understood that there was a a molecular grid grid a designed grid

inside the inside this very thin material and that was what made it so strong. And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our uh military technology in many different ways. And so you're talking about an extremely advanced scientist taking an interest in a horror novelist's abduction account. And a guy, you know, so Sarbacher's working at the highest levels of American military, and he takes an interest in Whitley Strieber, reaches out, wants to speak to him, and uh uh uh Striber says they're about to meet up, and Sarbacher dies.

Oh. Oh, yeah. And so it's it's fascinating. and and and then again Sarbacher's just scrubbed from the internet. But what Sarbacher I think told Streber on the phone is that you had all this interesting material that Patel Memorial Institute was managing back in the day that Sarbacher was somewhat involved with. So just another piece of corroboration for this and there there's research to suggest that Battel also studied the like really lightweight metals out of the 1947 Roswell crash. In 1949, alongside project stork, they started publishing um information on like shaped metal

alloys, nighol. There was like a there was like a nickel alloy or something. Titanium nickel alloys. I I used to think that um Battel was kind of phased out of operations. I I'm not quite sure why I thought this, but recently I've taken a huge interest in Battel being like one of the primary contractors out at Dougway Proving Grounds, which I think has a massive underground facility. I I I mean I' I've talked to an a witness who didn't go on the 2023 career NPC, but I've talked to him and I've interviewed him and um he while working as a contractor for the C Martin company at Dougway at the West

Desert Test Wing in the Avery section stumbled upon a building where he saw a craft hovering in the air being tested So fascinating. Yeah. and and then Battel runs Battel has a bunch of old contracts for making like enclosed laboratories at Dougway and stuff and that that that is really fascinating. And is there a Mormon connection with Dougway because it's in Utah and I think of like the CIA as being fed into by a lot just a lot of Mormons. Mormons were surrounding sort of, you know, Howard

Well, Greer likes to say so, right? But I don't know. I I haven't been able to make that connection, but I was able to make a a Dougway proving ground connection to one of your recent videos with with James Fox. Oh, tell tell me. So, I was re-watching your James Fox interview and he talks about the 1971 Hollowman or the Hollowman Air Force Base footage that he talked to filmmaker uh Allan Sandler who said he saw the footage and saw beans in the footage. Yeah, we showed that conversation between him and Sandler. Yeah. What did you see on the film? Was it color? Was it black and white? Was it

black and white? It was black and white. When I had saw, you would have me like black my friend, but it was nothing other than what we ended said in the book. We we see this thing, this round thing, and it wasn't that stable. Funny part, and it landed and a door open and guys come out looking like they were outer space guys. So, in 1971, Sandler and another filmmaker, Robert, like Emger or something like that, I think his name was. Yeah. Yeah. They were approached by two uh uh two US military officials. to make a

documentary and they could include the Hollowman Air Force base footage. One of these individuals was an army or air force, I can't remember, a colonel named um uh Wein Brener and Wein Brener was actually part of the foreign technology division out of Wright Pat for a while. So that occurred at in the 80s or the late '7s and so time goes on. uh Weine Brener would be asked all the time about UFOs because Robert Emmaner would go back and ask him like what what did you think and you know there's story of a conversation where he and Weine Brener are speaking and Weinbrunner saying like oh UFOs don't exist blah blah blah while

taking a book off a shelf and giving him a book about UFOs but on his deathbed there's a lot of research proposed by like Grant Cameron and um Anthony Brigalia and so forth about uh wine Brener on his deathbed saying that they house uh dead extraterrestrials at a facility out in Utah which of course is Dougway proving grounds. It's really I made that connection last night. That was fun. Fun to see the Sandler to Wein Brener to Doug Way. Sammy, are you in touch with any UFO whistleblowers, not whistleblowers yet, people on the inside who have firsthand

witnessed crafts? Absolutely. Yeah. And anybody who has witnessed craft in a hanger in a classified facility in the US, not just seeing a thing flying in the air. That's wild, man. Yeah. But will they talk publicly? No. And will they discuss the full extent? Why won't they talk publicly? Just I do think it's important context for the audience like we're going to get comments trust me bro or whatever. So no no I yeah I'm not saying I'm not I'm not saying that to like push like a

narrative or say like run with this like I know people have seen this not a trust me bro thing but yeah of course I I've talked to people I take very seriously like good friends that I've made who have said this and um these people are former military or intelligence. They're not contractors. I've I haven't heard a peep from a contractor. I think that's a whole another story because there's uh you like government NDAs and contractor NDAs and the penalties for violating those are severe. But these um military people are are bound by NDAs, some timed which usually really long NDAs like

decades long or lifelong agreements and they do not want to be the person to any who've seen bodies. One of them has talked about a place in which bodies are stored where they stored. Uh we'll we'll save that because that might lead to uh you know people being able to identify that that person. Um anything about the bodies and nothing about the bodies because I think that that is privy to their um some a lot of their NDAs and so forth. So they they can't talk about that. How do you

think this stuff gets so well hidden? Like, so, okay, I think there are some really important foundational questions that the Jake Barber story brings up, which is if you can summon these things on command, then you probably have a thousand plus. And if you have a thousand plus, then you'd expect more leakage. You'd expect more like, I saw the thing in the hanger and I wasn't supposed to. I took a photo and it's out. You hear rumors on the other side of this that we have 10 to 15 and they're like, you know, only select things and surround atomic sites or whatever. Yeah. How [clears throat] many do we have? 10

to 15 and a thousand plus. That's a it's a wide range. And so clearly we can't like fully attract these things at will would be my guess because I think if we had a thousand plus these things would have leaked. So do you have kind of like a mental model on that? That's a good question because if we look at Ryan S. Wood's fantastic book, Magic Eyes Only, we can find over a hundred cases of of UFO crash retrieval. And even if only 20% of those are true, that's still, you know, above 20. There's also claims by Greer and others that at some of these black sites, um, one to two craft are brought down a

EM weapons to target the craft and bring them down. And then there's also stories about the 1983 strategic defense initiative instituted by Ronald Reagan, which was to act against Soviet ICD. Star Wars. Yeah, this is the Star Wars programs. I've talked to numerous people, and I I talk about this all the time in my projects that this likely had a back door to both fund UAP programs and act offensively against UAP. So there there seems to be numerous methods for them to crash accidentally or be brought down forcefully. How many of how often is that successful? I have no idea. And what sort of technology is being brought down? In in Jake's case,

we have the testimony of the egg and the eight at eight gone. And there's also the classic saucer and so forth. And uh this technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's there's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's different types of NHI, some manned, some not manned. I often think back to the 2008 um I'll I'll say this slow because it's of course very complicated but the 2008 contractor that rhymes with Bed Barton wanting to uh devest themselves of a

craft to you could say this David Grush said this on Joe Rogan. Oh okay. Okay. So in 2008 when Lockheed wanted to get rid of materials Yeah. to um the Osat program through the CIA office, the director of science and technology, Glenn Gaffne. and he blocked that. Correct. He blocked that stopped that from happening. And um you know, I have really good reason to believe that this was the 1950 this was materials or the craft from the 1953 Kingman crash. And there's also other lines of I believe that too, by the way. Okay.

Yeah. And there's other lines of research to suggest that lucky the only reason they were able to give this up is because they were completely uh comfortable in the fact that no contract no other contractor no other foreign government or no US government could make any heads or tails with this technology and that stands at a huge juxosition from all the other stories of alien reproduction vehicles being Yeah. So where where are you there? Because I think this is really important is like how how much have we actually reverse engineered made progress and made these things flyable and you've

gone really deep on this interesting story of Mark McCandish, Brad Sorenson, but I'd love to hear let's let's go over that story and then and then I also just want to kind of zoom out and get your view on like have we reverse engineered UFOs effectively? Okay, that so Brad Sorenson uh he's an he's an industrial designer with his friend aerospace illustrator who had worked for defense contractors popular science Mark Mckandlish in either October in October to December of 1988. Yeah. So McCandish is a top aviation

illustrator working with the biggest and you hear him speak and like the guy doesn't seem like a liar to me. He was a genius. He's super smart and like just almost like slightly I don't want to say autistic, but like you just hear him speak and he oozes So Mark and Brad are to go to an air show at Norton Air Force Base in 1988. Uh Mark had to not go to do work for Popular Mechanics. We can actually see the the cover of that magazine he worked

on. So Brad goes with some former high-up official. I initially at the time thought it might have been Frank Carluchi, but it it might have been somebody else he went with. The air shows going on. There's all types of interesting stuff, you know, fighters, advanced technologies, and so forth. And and then the person Brad is with brings him to a classified exhibit at another hanger and passes Brad off as his aid. This was a former like secretary of defense or really high person. And there were other, you know, uh, senators there, George Georgie. Brown Jr., U,

Cranston, so forth. Uh Mark kind of thought this might have been flown down to Air Force Plan 42 a couple miles away, but after further research and talking to some people, I do think this event did occur at Norton. So Brad Sornson is brought into a hanger where all sorts of advanced aerospace vehicles are shown off. Like so this is like a back of the house more secret version of the air show only for select people. Yeah. And so there's like a hovercraft, there's the losing competitor to the B2 Spirit Bomber race. There's a craft called the Pulsar, um, which is likely a

Lockheed Northrup Group craft. It's an unmanned UAV, uh, unmanned aerial vehicle. And it was designed to go at incredible speeds with scramjet technology to go super fast that could deploy like 120 nuclear warheads on its underbelly. Insane piece of technology. And this whole giant uh this whole giant hanger is separated by black curtain. So eventually they go to the other side of the black curtain and that's where mama, baby, and papa bear are. These are three flying saucers hovering off the ground. Identical in composition but scaled to

supposed to be published what I found and I was I was told it wasn't supposed to be published by a person but I found an original interview from I think 1990 with Brad Sorenson and Bill Scott of Aviation Week and Space Technology. So for the no longer is this a secondhand retelling. No, this is straight from Brad Sorenson. Okay, this is not a secondhand encounter. This is straight from Brad, who by the way gave me death threats. I don't like Brad. Not a nice guy. Yeah, he sent you some pretty weird shots across the bow and said something about so Mark Mccand died a sort of

strange death and he said something like I couldn't protect him anymore or something which is and then I believe the filmmaker who made this documentary I forget what the name of the documentary is on Mark McAnd which it's called Zero point something about zero point yeah the hunt for it's not the hunt for zero point but something about like the story of Mark McCand that's right something like that I think James Allen he died in a weird aggressive cancer in his autopsy report. It showed evidence of heavy metal I've actually talked to the editor of that interview since and he said that

they had received kind of threats uh like Men in Black type encounters and and so forth. So So somebody did not want this out and so okay Brad Sorenson actually has a firsthand interview with Bill Scott of Aviation Week goes back to the early 90s. What what what does he when was it Was it 1990? So what what does he say? So he said he saw these three craft. There was a demonstration by like Cats in Suits with a kind of a VCR and a video showing the craft uh over a dry lake bed hopping hopping hopping shooting up into the air. And there were

some panels pulled off of the craft and essentially the bottom portion had what looked like a giant like Tesla coil almost like uh copper plates and a rotary arm to reach out. The top part looked like a removable crew cabin. Um this had F4 Phantom jump seat super crap like a a hand ball. um uh control mechanism, which by the way, that was the control mechanism for the triangular craft and secret machines by Tom Dong, but that's a whole another story. Uh and the thing looked like all three looked like crap. Um Sorenson said that it

looked like it was made by scientists, not engineers. There was no um beauty in design. There was no streamlining of features. There was slag on it, chips. These things looked like they had beaten up. There were rivets on the outside. And so eventually during the the pitch for this was to garner funding because Reagan had put a lot of effort into this project with with Star Wars and so forth and the incoming administration. They wanted to see just as much advanced aerospace uh money put in. And so the story behind this by the men in charge

uh was that these craft were created were copied from technology found in a crash in 47. The technology was not given to us. It was forcibly taken. it was never meant to be had the people who it was taken from or the things that it was taken from was it was taken forcefully and that this was our poor man's interpretation of how this technology worked. So interesting because yeah that that's the rumor about Roswell. It was high-powered radar that we sort of you know that messed with

interfered with the the flight patterns of these UFOs and then they they come and we weren't meant to have this stuff. And then you hear rumors in and around legacy programs of like whatever beings are in control of the UFOs like want their stuff back and are extremely angry at the legacy UFO programs. And so that begets all sorts of weird onlogical questions there. But I want to stick with the court details. So what else gives you conviction that this is that this is true and that we do have flyable UFOs because I I just

think, you know, so many people are going to sort of be skeptical, right? I completely understand. It's such a crazy topic, but this was the birthplace of what we'll call ARV, alien reproduction vehicle. This was kind of the first ever big testimony of it. And Mark McCandal before he passed in 2020 due to a self-inflicted gunshot wound that you know who knows he investigated the flux liner what it was called ARV multiple times. He talked to an individual named Kent Selin who said he saw this over Edwards Air Force Base in the 70s. He has an image taken by a

pilot Harvey something I can't quite remember over Provo Utah right by Dougway proving grounds in the 60s and that looks identical down to the synthetic vision system on the outside which was an array of cameras to kind of point to a location. And that's what's so interesting about this. It's as if we were given this sort of intact shell and then we retroactively patchworked on like kind of low tech. Yeah. Like the jump seats. the jump seats and the cameras and then you kind of like make you like make this thing

work. But like it's this really low tech combined with the really high-tech that we were given or something. But this isn't the only example. You know, there's the controversial account of Edgar Fuche. A lot of people like to discount um especially because they like to say that Fuchche has has been debunked due to a lot of uh controversy with the alien scientist that I still think is it's really worth revisiting. I talked about it a little bit, but the alien scientist is this YouTuber named Jeremy Ree. Yeah. Yeah. And he had a relationship with Fuchche. Okay. Oh, interesting. I've talked to the guy. He's he's a nice Yeah. Yeah. He's cool.

But he's pretty he's pretty critical of So, yeah. What So, what's up with Edgar Fuche? And so, Fuche was a Yusf master sergeant that actually has USAF is United States Air Force. He has verifiable work at Area 51 in the Okay. And he said whilst at Area 51, he would work on like advanced satellite uplinks and so forth. But he would come to learn from uh various friends he knew, including some NSA officials of the TR3B, reverse engineered flying

weirdly enough, I've talked to a guy who former uh army in the the mid 2010s who said he saw a a like a triangle craft jut off of an airway in Area 51. That that's pretty interesting. Well, we can say this now because I said this in my piece with Randy Anderson. Randy Anderson, you know, who you introduced me to this Green Beret, amazing guy who claimed to be taken, you know, uh, to this off-world technologies division, naval surface warfare crane, also occasionally does contractor work at Area 51. And he told he's told both of us now and I've said this publicly

that he has seen triangle craft that he can only presume take uses electrogravetic propulsion because it's not using you know normal flight principles at least observably to him take off at Area 51. Yeah. Well, this is even a separate guy Okay. So then you have another guy. Yeah. He he said that this took off during a a in the cow hall at A51 the during classified takeoffs of aircraft the windows are supposed to be lowered nobody looks outside but because he was with a colonel um they just kind of

and operational version ranging from 200 to 600 uh feet in diameter, um crewing four, serving as logistics and transportation for what could only be known as a secret space fleet. The propulsion device for this system was reverse engineered by Sandia and Livermore, two FFRDC's. The program was ran by the NSA, CIA, and NRO. And the contractors at work were Northrup Grumman, Loheed Martin, Boeing, a couple others. But here's what's I hate to say this. This all makes so much sense. But it just fits the most stuff you

This is the most interesting part to me about the whole TR3B thing. Fuche says the pilots for this were plucked from the Air Force test pilot Which takes place at Edwards, which is the 412th test wing. There's a witness that contacted Greer in 2023 that I in I found his name, investigated him thoroughly in an Edwards piece that claimed he operated out of uh Edwards Air Force Base in Nellis and Area 51 on testing reverse engineered vehicles. I have shown you a little bit about this guy, right? including like the work he

did at the Pentagon and Nellis and Edwards and he was a director of an electronic or kind of an electronics warfare group at Edwards under the 412 test wing which is exactly what Fuchets had said tested the TR3 vehicles. That is a phenomenal case. so what does he say exactly? So he said he tested reverse engineered vehicles um at Area 51 at Area 51 and Edwards. So he said in 2000 1998 to 2002 this guy Ed um was briefed into programs that while he was

at Nellis under the 98th Range Wing um which became the Nevada Test and Training Range which is pretty interesting in itself but that then in about 2006 he was sent to Edwards to actually work in said programs as a director of an electronics warfare group and like I vetted this guy quite well. I've tried to contact him in numerous ways. Would you ever put out a story with him or if he would talk to me, I would So, you just know about you're not in My My number is blocked by him. I've tried to call him, email him. I've he told me about him. Yeah.

I've tried to message him on social media. Funny enough, one time he accepted a Snapchat request and I messaged him, but he never got No. So, this is what I think one of the most consequential untapped testimonies there is. So many of these guys like as soon as you initiate contact they say a little thing and they say a thing they get kind of excited and then and then and then they get spooked. Well, Greer did the right thing with this witness Ed. He was going to bring him in front of uh Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to testify. The guy got cold feet right beforehand and I like I had this confirmed to me by

elements of of Senate and so forth. So this isn't just Greer saying that. But this guy was supposed to testify by like a Senate aid or like Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And this guy was supposed to speak but got cold feet. Why is that? Because he was threatened. I don't know. There's other If you look through the Greer archive, there's other witnesses. It's actually really interesting to see witnesses who are going to talk to Greer and so forth, but then say they've been threatened with some really horrible crimes. Um like really grossed stuff. Yeah. That if they continue re to talk will happen. I just don't understand why

there isn't some sort of limited disclosure around these things existing because it's like in the event in which you know we're at par with China and Russia why wouldn't you let out some like basic surface area that this stuff exist like that that's what is it just this bureaucratic [ __ ] overhang or there real national security reasons for not letting this stuff out and not not letting it fool you out but like like nuclear physics is not classified nuclear trade secrets are why can't why Is that not fully analogous to this?

I mean, it must be even looking at the testimony of Ed, he said 2009 to 2010, he was part of an air force going public plan that was called off by a twostar Yeah, there are all these was like um uh you had uh under the Bush White House, Bush 43, they were going to do this sort of, you know, possible they were they were going to they're thinking about disclosure and Hal Putoff was part of this advisory group and they were talking about it and um anyways, Bush 43, so Hal Putoff is on record saying that Bush 43 contemplated disclosure

with Steven Hadley, national security adviser, and uh you know, Dick Cheney who David brush is on record saying, you know, uh uh was one of the gatekeepers for the program and they decided that it was too ontologically shocking to let this out and that we you know we couldn't publicly disclose uh about UFOs and I think that turned into a group where they were reading about like they're reading the threebody problem and other [laughter] things like so super interesting. I mean this could also boil down to

and the threebody problem for people that don't know is a science a Chinese science fiction novel. It's a great series. It's a great series. It involves basically like aliens controlling almost all frontier science. Yeah. Um and and sort of reality itself and being able to stagnate but also, you know, upstart physics and um yeah, reality being sort of information theoretic in nature and the whole the whole thing is so fascinating. And this could all all deal with the subject of of ARVs. But real quick, you mentioned Dick Cheney. A little

uh factoid is there is a supposed S4 whistleblower named Derek Hennessy who claimed he was a Navy Seal. He wasn't a Navy Seal. I had this confirmed so already not off to a good start, but he claimed he worked at S4 and sometime in the the mid9s that Dick Cheney came into S4. But the the funny connection there is that um I can't remember the exact year, but Dick Cheney was actually going around to air bases around the US to close up what he what he didn't think was uh operating efficiently. So that's that's kind of a So we know we know that he was going around to Air Force bases. That's But we don't but Dererick Hennessy lied

about being a SEAL so we don't know. So we don't know what's up there. Yeah. Yeah. It's so I mean yeah the Dick Cheney thing I don't know what to think about it. But if there was a government behind our government, Dick Cheney would be the tip of the spear of that thing. Like if you read there's Barton Gellman um biography of him his called the the and it's like that dude single-handedly architected the Iraq war based on like false intelligence and he was a representative of a lot of oligarchic sort of corporate interests

and you know and then Hallebertton gets the contract once we go kind of screw up Iraq and then he gets the contract. It's like there's something to that guy where you even read George W. Bush's book, Decision Points, and you're like, "Yeah, your decisions locally are being made based on, you know, certain intelligence being given to you, and those decisions actually don't seem extremely irrational at each moment." And then it's like, who's giving you the intel? And it's [ __ ] Dick [laughter] Cheney. And like there's some other guys like, you know, Wolf Witz and, you know, sort of cast of neocon characters, but

like Cheny's at the heart of it. Yeah. I mean, he would make sense as a person at the top of the pyramid like like Russ. Yes. Yeah. person at the top of pyramid and maybe of a lineage. I'm about to do a piece on Henry Kissinger in UFOs. And I think there's some connections there. And it's like if you pick a modern Henry Kissinger, it would be Dick Cheney, you know, it's like this guy is the man behind the man, right? But so we were talking about um the ARV and and the TR3B. Uh and according to Fuche and so forth, that's not the only uh triangular alien

of a triangular ARV called the XF-131 Super Sentinel that operated off of like um RCS radar cross-section facilities in the Mojave Desert. And I I' I've talked to McDonald about this and he maintains the secrecy of these engineers to this day. I said, "Hey, can I can I talk to these people?" But that design actually was uh featured in the first ever episode of the X-Files because um I can't Chris or something. Chris Carr. Yeah, Chris. Yeah. Contracted Bill McDonald to put that in the Chris Carr is the creator of the XFiles,

right? Bill McDonald was contracted to put that in the first ever episode of the XFiles. Um which was allegedly based on true stories from John Duza. And that episode is about a triangular alien reproduction triangular alien reproduction vehicle that's seen over an Air Force base. It's the same design. I I've put some featured some clips of that. That's so interesting. I think Hollywood has been engaging in soft UFO disclosure for 30 or 40 years through these CIA liaison. We have Spielberg's new movie It's called now called Disclosure. And I

was talking to Chris Ramsey again, great YouTube channel. Go follow it. Area 52. And he was like, "What if a UFO is shown as part of that movie? Wouldn't that not be the best way to disclose?" And like I I'm kind of I'm on his side. Like maybe maybe that happens. Um, and then historically too, you've had, you know, uh, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which involves Jacqu Valet and Jay Allen Heinik. Jacqu Valet's played as a character by France watch. You see crates that say Locked in Northrup. No, don't they say works in TRW TRW? They either if they say that then you're

like, okay, they're talking about Next Level Knowledge, then they really know. Cuz TRW was bought by Northrup in 2002, And TRW was the contractor behind the Zodiac story, which was an alleged crash. So I think they do say skunk works and because close encounters of the third kind was they do okay I don't know interesting fact about TRW Jacques Valet has talked about Dr. Eric A. Walker we talked about earlier being a on the board of directors or a chairman of TRW as well. Oh wow fascinating. [laughter] Yeah I mean Spielberg was dialed in with you have to go deep to talk about skunk

of Northr Gumman and he goes go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Towns and Brown when I ask him are there is there anything sort of useful or applicable in the UFO story. Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Towns and Brown and some other very interesting uh like heretical technologies. So, I'd invite people uh an unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. So, there's more corroboration beyond that on on the TT Brown stuff. Um, but where was I going with what were you

just saying? The the TRW closing cutters of the third kind before that. Uh, oh, okay. So, Steven Spielberg uh executive produced Back to the Future. Yeah. And the the the the subplot of the whole Thomas Towns and Brown story is that gravity affects time. In general relativity, gravity and time are tightly coupled. They're related. And his he talks about time travel constantly with his family. Like that's something that's really and if you think about it, if we were to ever engage in effective interstellar travel, it would involve space-time metric engineering.

Inherently, you can't get around that. Even with nuclear thermal propulsion, you get to the closest star system in 40,000 years. That's too biologically that does not work, right? So, he's super into time travel and then you have Back to the Future come out, which is a Steven Spielberg executive produced movie. The guy's name is Doc Brown, which everybody called Thomas Towns and Brown. His name is EMTT Brown. EM TT Brown. Thomas Townsen Brown is in the name. He uses his flux capacitor. Thomas Townsen Brown's experiments are capacitor experiments. And he uh goes

back in time in 1985 which is the year Thomas Townsen Brown dies to 1957 which is when I think his experiment was first experimentally uh uh proven around around that time at the Bonson labs. It's the time that physics sort of went astray in the wrong direction when I think the anti-gravity stuff went black. And so it's just I don't know there's so much there uh that I think begets this like greater and then ET even is extremely interesting. ET and the kid like lock like they have some sort of weird psionic connection and you

remember they're in the hospital together and ET's like heart rate is matching the kid's heart rate and you have all this stuff around the psionic connection that's now coming out. You also have the consciousness connection there where the mother is walking around the kitchen and like these kids have taken these kids see the ETSs but the mother doesn't and like the ET is sort of like walking around the fridge and the mother doesn't see it cuz like her perceptive she's closed off to these realities. Um so like I I I think Stephen Spielberg definitely has been

fed some really interesting UFO stuff over the years. And was it Spielberg or Cameron that created the film The Abyss? That was James Cameron. Okay, cuz that's also an interesting one about USO. It's it's interesting to see these these concepts relate in Hollywood cuz James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, and Christopher Nolan are definitely fed intense secret [ __ ] they they [laughter] have to be because on one hand you have films like Independence Day uh which is just a bombastic action film glorified. But then on the other hand, you have very

thoughtful projects like Close Encounters of the Third Kind and to an extent ET and and as we know now, but even even like not even like where does the concept of Men in Black Men in Black sounds quacky. But like if you go talk to Richard Dolan, who's a super deep UFO researcher, Men in Black are the they're they are this thing. They're in these suits and they show up after UFO abduction experiences, UFO sightings, and they often take people's footage or swear them to secrecy. And he thinks, Dolan thinks they're almost like the

counterintel group of the aliens themselves. They erase your memory. And so it's turned into this like kind of jokey funny, you know, movie with Will but like even that like where is that derived to begin with, And it's just so it's so it's it's so fascinating, you know? That's interesting that I because I've heard that idea floated around before that the like colloquial men in black are almost like a non-human entity because I almost I I'd like to hear more about that because I almost stand on the other side. I I straight up think that the men in black in a sense are NSA spooks. So,

I would say the same thing, but like you meet with certain people like Whitley Strieber and other just experiencers and like these guys seem to like have technology available to them that's not available to the general public and may maybe that is just like okay so it's like AAM's razor it's like NSA or something but it's weird techn it's like implants that involve technological mediumship as Whitley Street I felt his implant in his Really? Yeah, I felt it and it's the weirdest

it's this it's the supposed uh men in black uh unit out of the NSA called the tactical reconnaissance engineering assessment search team which was created by Stubbleine and it's only ever been talked about by Fuche and Hans Adams the crown prince of so that's come up for me and I I've never brought that up but how yeah [laughter] how do you think that the crown prince of Likenstein cuz I've heard some very interesting things about him. He seems like a really cool guy, but like really interested in the spooky science stuff. I've only ever seen his his discussions

with like Greer in the emails on the DPI archive and looked up a few things about him and him mentioning treat. Besides that, I have no idea because I would see that and I said crown prince of Likensstein in a small central European company. What have you what have you found out about him? Because that's that's pretty I don't I I I don't you know I I I don't know. I probably shouldn't say because the conversations I've had are in confidence, but he seems very interesting and interested in sort of secret science. One more piece of possible corroboration of you know maybe it being a combo as far as the men in

black is I did speak to Hal put off recently and I was trying to figure out I was like is it is it their program you know is it the NHI program or is it our program and he goes what if it's a joint space program he goes I might believe that maybe there's something and we're worried he did yeah to me yeah so in haluto off is I think as deep as it gets when it comes to sort of outside the Overton window science which is now being vindicated. I mean, he was just on a podcast in December which was co-sponsored by National Science

and like you had like pretty high up DOE people on the podcast and all these amazing people with pretty impressive credentials. The former head of revolutionary tech at Skunk Works are all on this podcast and he's talking about extended electronamics and gravity manipulation. And I think it's clearly this sort of limited hangout where it's like, let's partially expose some things so that people can, you know, learn a little bit more about some science that we've been sitting on, especially again if China has caught up. You can't just, you know, throw people off the trail

constantly. You need some limited surface area around it. But yeah, Hal Putoff did say and you know, it's always I love Hal, but it's always this sort of like, you know, tongue-in-cheek like half speculating, so you never quite know. never commits to he never commits to something. He always goes a whole zoo of possibilities and it's like a b c and d and then you have to decide you know I I sometimes I I wonder about how and how much he'll he'll commit to to subjects because under his toutelage and good friend of course is Eric Davis and uh recently like as you know missile man myself and others talking to Eric

you did a great interview with Eric he said a lot of interesting things but he also said some a couple things I disagree with one he said um that the only FFRDC he knew of was the aerospace corporation which I I disagree with but I think that's because he was only read into a sub selection of legacy programs under OAP. But he also said that alien reproduction vehicles don't exist. Do you think there's aircraft systems that have kind of leveraged Definitely no aircraft systems that have leveraged anything. Um and there's been no one to one reproduction. A lot of that fell into the psyche of of the UFO

community because of Bob Lazar and then Brad Senson and Mark Mark McCandless. So I don't know where they're coming from. And then other people kind of came out of the woodwork saying the same thing, but no proof, And I'm only left with two possibilities when I think about that. One is that he's lying. Two is that he was only read into a select subsection of programs that only overlapped Locky trying to get rid of Kingman materials and thus he would not know about ARV because those weren't part of the the program. And I I

kind of lean towards towards that explanation because I I really don't agree with that assessment. And uh at at the end of the interview, I I had a little notebook with the flux liner on it. I said, "You know, Dr. Davis, you really haven't even considered this testimony of Mark McCandish and the Flux Liner." And he said, but right before we cut off, well, Hal Putoff interviewed Brad Sorenson. And we never got to talk about that more. And to this day, I want to ask him so badly about how that went because Hal has spoken to Sorenson.

And I I And I just need to know how that goes. I wish Hal could speak a little bit more candidly in an open setting because he's also super KY in the program with James Fox and he's also kind of integral to the story of Zodiac, the alleged crash retrieval program first introduced in UFO magazine in What is Zodiac? God, that's a really interesting one. So in 1998 um UFO magazine published a story uh by a pseudonym Greg Halifax about Sedge Masters a a story about somebody who is brought into a UFO crash

author of the Zodiac story and puts a lot of faith that the Zodiac was indeed a crash retrieval program and it was operated by TRW. So that's just a fascinating story how even uh it seems like everything kind of post 2000 or post 1995 how Eric and Kit what is the core story of Zodiac like what is it's essentially the Majestic 12 by another name because the Majestic 12 for people who don't know was introduced under the the Majestic 12 documents first appeared in 1984 in a film canister to UFO reason or

story and it's just kind of like the secret uh retrieval team. I So, to be quite plain after talking with Ryan Wood, I think the Majestic 12 did exist in a capacity and probably still exists today, but I am hesitant to think about like a very ubiquitous crash retrieval team. I think that there's a very wide swath of retrieval teams and retrieval operations. Well, there are people who've I think are pretty credible who talk about this like these continuity of government programs. So the 5412 committee, you know, national security, you know, committee, you know, back in

under his purview. And he's extremely he's basically expressing extreme dissatisfaction that you had these rogue groups working on purportedly UFOs who he met with and it's out of his jurisdiction. And in that document that I believe was found in the Edgar Mitchell estate. In that document uh it says JA is a liar and I think JA is John Alexander. Yeah. Yeah, cuz John Alexander has been uh publicly said, "Oh, Majestic 12 exists. It had nothing to do with UFOs and uh kind of all of that before." And

of the earlier documents like the Eisenhower briefing document, a lot of the dates and specific um discussions line up with real events. Um for example, James Forestto meeting with Truman, dates are mentioned when those two met and kind of discuss the future or the inception of Majestic 12 and so forth. If you look in the library of Truman, library of Eisenhower when he's supposedly briefed, these presidents and president incumbents had diary recently came out and it showed a meeting with him and Eisenhower or something and that was like a real meeting and it his diary

majestic documents before including a I can't remember the general's name but a four-star general who was asked about the documents. He said they're real or the Majestic 12 is real. I can't tell you any more than that. I cuz I know that the Majestic 12 to many sort of hobbyists in this subject is nothing more than kind of conspiracy material, right? They just think Majestic 12 may, you know, not true. just but if you were to simulate back then if a UFO issue were a thing and we had exotic materials and we were in contact with you know an

extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence you would need our best and brightest on it and if you look at that list of people those would be the those would be the people on it yeah Vanavar Bush would be heading it up and then of course Vanavar Bush is completely unconnected with Robert Sarbacher and Dr. Eric A. Walker as also mentioned as the head of UFO research. That's right. And then you have Gordon Gray who was also on the Majestic Don Menzel who admitted you know he was super read in on a Navy CIA a bunch of you know uh uh pretty classified info

and admitted as much actually uh to Kennedy and Stanton Friedman actually writes about this was sort of in charge of disinfo and debunking which he was debunking a lot of and there's this amazing Swedish astronomer Beatatrice Valale and she talks about Menzel having like deleted like all this astronomical information from like 1953 and onwards in uh from the Harvard Observatory and at the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time you had Robert Sarbacher. He was working there and then the number I think James Conit was the president of

Harvard and he was like the number two guy in you know um uh uh uh the Manhattan project at the time. So yeah, I I don't know. It's it's hard to say but it sort of makes sense as directionally correct. Yeah. And you know, it's it's not unreasonable to think that the group evolved over time, changed names and so forth. I mean, you have in 198 um 7 or86 or 87 when Eric Walker is asked by Styon about the Majestic 12 and he gives the Don Kyote impersonation. You're chasing after windmills. It's it's impossible to chase after the

Majestic 12. The Majestic documents were first delivered to um Chandere and Freriedman and so forth in 1984. That's when the first documents were actually uh kind of received but weren't given to like a muon symposium until ' 87. But what's interesting is the documents were kind of mailed out in ' 84 and then if we look at the re or look at the manuscript of Corso, it kind of seems like around ' 86 the majestic 12 took on a new name, the UFO working group and got new blood like uh like Albert Stubble and some NSA people and some CIA people. So, it's interesting to think how this group may have evolved over

time and possibly it changed its name to the working group because it was aware of the leaks at the time. The whole history is fascinating. I think maybe you know one of the tip of the spear longitudinal timeline assessments of like you know all UFO oversight is this great article by Chris Sharp at the Liberation Times. Oh yeah. It's really interesting stuff and there's some connections you've made between Woods Hole and like, you know, some, you know, Yeah. Crane. Exactly. And and Randy Anderson's story.

But I also just want to touch on, you know, he talks about how it was the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which was before the National Security Act, before the CIA, you know, was formed. They were sort of in charge of like the initial UFO, you know, custody. And I I think we have a decent map of actually what occurred. So David Grush says that there's this magenta crash in Lombardi in Italy in 1933. Exactly. I've now made the connection through some people. This woman Pipa Malmrren who's amazing um really interested in

the UFO thing, but she was actually special assistant to George W. Bush. She made it clear to me that um James Jesus Angleton was the US like OSS person involved in Italy at the time. And so rumors are that the you have this magenta crash and then uh Mussolini goes to Hitler and says, "Is this yours?" to the Nazis, right? And then they end up working together on it. And so this magenta crash ends up probably being worked on by the Nazis, which explains these like DLA, you know,

rumors, uh, and Klerab and sort of check modern Czechoslovakia and Poland where they're working on these flying saucers. We have tons of reports around this from Rudolph Shrivever, Richard Meita, a bunch of guys at the time along with Paul Melon and Alan Dulles. There's a story of Paul Melon kind of spilling the beans to his, you know, grandson who's alive now, John Warner IV about like being sitting, you know, uh, standing over a UFO uh that that can employ exotic flight principles in modern day

Wow. And so you can you kind of can come up with this thread of like the Lombardi Magenta crash happens. It goes to the Nazis. Maybe there's some custody where the Vatican is involved as well. I've heard that I've heard that from I've heard that from Grush. And then it goes over to the US and then it's worked on at right airfield and you have all these operation overcast paperclip Nazi scientists who then that that's part of the rush to get the Nazi scientists is to get the ones who are like that deep,

you know, this deep on like really exotic, you know, uh, flight principles and UFO stuff. We now know Hans Conler himself, who is in charge of the blackest of the black Vundrava programs for the Nazis, made his way to the US. And so you kind of have this somewhat consistent narrative of like what happened with this early UFO crash and how the US started to get involved with this stuff and all the guys who were involved in the early Marshall plan and tech transfer programs. Kissinger was an army counterintel guy who was

doing tech retrieval at the time. Um and you have other examples you know you mentioned foresttoall foresttoall you know was as well and he was secretary of the navy. So Mhm. blew himself out of the naval hospital in Bethesda. Yeah. Exactly. Midsophocles poem. He And the magenta case is so interesting because Mussolini thought it was a a Nazi advanced craft or a British or American advanced craft when he had his own special investigation group, the RS33, who was like really keen on the fact this wasn't human technology and

then likely worked with the Nazis. Yeah. And apparently Marone's grandson might be like on the verge of saying something. you have this uh Penote, this Italian UFO researcher who's like really on that trail. Um, I'd love to hear of more of a description because the only real description we have are is from the RS33 like a disc and then grush like a lenticular shape and that that begs the question when we brought over operation paperclipip scientists so Nazi scientists if um if there's kind of a collaboration in crash retrieval groups today in even in 2023

you had uh Canadian uh defense member or parliament member Larry Maguire who wrote to the head of Canadian defense uh wanting to bring the Canadian people up to speed on UFO programs because there was an active five eyes nation that was working together on material exploitation and so forth. Well, there's a scientific principle called the Kwanda effect and it involves stabilizing basically a saucer-like craft and there's a p this guy Henry Kanda was this guy's Romanian scientist. He has a patent on this from 1936 and I

think it points he was in Vichi France but he basically was forced to work under the Nazis and then he was taken to Wright Patterson to work on project Y which was an extension of the Avro car project which is trying to get flying saucers to work and so and then and uh William Steinman connects this with Thomas Towns and Brown and his gravity experiments where they were coordinating with Thomas Towns and Brown and wanted to see if the gravity stuff worked so they could incorporate it into these saucers or or whatever that they had. I wonder how much that collaboration takes place cuz you know in in Grushia's

NewsNation interview he talks about like a multi-deade cold war with our adversaries we can assume is Russia and China. I think back to uh Jonathan Wayant's encounter in 97 in Peru once he sees the UFO. He's taken in by these guys in DOE's rain jackets. He's flown to a place on a CH47 interrogated for days. when he's brought to this location, this uh like obscure military base, there's not only Americans there, but there's Chinese, there's Germans, and so who else is collaborating on these these projects that there's a

multi-deade cold war? Well, that's that that's the Lazar uh rumor as well, which is that like Russians were at Area 51, too, and there was sort of this co-space program and that was always there's uh you know, salt, this is even public, this is open source in the salt one negotiations. I think it was 1971 treaty. We're talking about coordinating with the Russians on the UFO question because we were worried that they'd mistake it for American acts of aggression. That's what Kennedy probably wanted to do as well. So maybe there is some sort of international space program around the

Army Futures Command. And he says there's this subRossa secret conflict arms race going on between us and other countries. It's been going on for Yeah. For feudalistic dominance. So that begs the question, is the ultimate pursuit mastery of ARV? Because with ARV might not just be the vehicle, but it might be any sort of weapon or technology that can be exploited as weaponry. Remember what Randy said when he was taken to crane that the technology was considered weaponry due to an an electronic discharge during retrieval. Well, if you think about what the Manhattan project was, it was all

about payload potency, magnitude, and it's like, how can create a bigger bomb? And then at a certain point when you're at the Zarbomb level or whatever, you're at, you know, 80 megat tons plus, it doesn't matter. That's too big for any target. You have tons of ZAR bombs. It's like it's, you know, game over for the At that point, it becomes, the second Manhattan project becomes about payload delivery. And it becomes like who can deliver this payload faster and stealthier and you know it was ICBMs and then it was stealth fighters and you know and so it's that's it's a scary

world and I I almost don't even love talking about UFOs in this context because I think it's the sacred onlogical metaphysical thing which which should really drive weapons. Yeah. But I do think that that that might be a reality driving some of this stuff. Yeah. And I completely agree. I think back to the 1988 Norton show as well when Brad saw the pulsar craft with the 121 nuclear warheads. The guys were raving on about how this could destroy Russia in like 20 minutes. Raving on about that. And then on the other side of the curtain, you have saucers that utilize zero point energy systems and

that could, you know, drop a nuclear payload in a quarter of a second or the 0 point energy systems can be harnessed to create more devastating effects than even nuclear warheads. gi given that that this technology is probably a forcing function for extreme good or extreme evil. You know, it can think about nuclear fusion. It could destroy the world or it could save the Well, that's what Ed witness Ed out of Edward said part of the reason he reached out to Greer is because zero point energy systems were being harnessed and repressed. Do you believe

because that is part of the Steven Greer narrative that the lost century I'm not convinced that I I I believe that we displayed some local effects around over unity or free energy lower energy nuclear reaction you know whatever but the idea that we have scalable free energy that we're hiding in you know black compartments feels hard for me to believe but I'm open do what do you think I'm not sure because I don't understand the physics enough you know there's there's always a world in which these energy systems could powering deep underground military bases and we just

don't know about it that it's already employed on the system at large. But my knowledge is you know we we need to call it missile man and yeah ask him his advice on this part because I I just don't know enough. Yeah. Yeah. No to totally I I I can't say I'm high conviction in any direction there. But how do you like what's the thrust? What's the motivation for your research? Is it just like truth seeeking or how do you have a hope for how this sort of UFO thing ends? because it seems like we've crossed a Rubicon of late as far as people's acceptance of Yeah. But not not enough. Uh I I've just

been interested in this subject all of my life. And uh my goal really is just the work. I would like to in a responsible manner help disclose uh UAP legacy programs and bring a a larger truth about what the craft are, what what not just what they look like, but where they're from, what they do, why they're here, and how the programs that study and exploit these technologies have been constructed. Because there's a lot of very dark things in that aspect.

not only just the the decades of secrecy, but also just the the exploitation of possible sentient beings and and technology that right is not ours and if and exploitation of humans. Yeah, that that's the contentious thing we talked about as well uh with uh Jake and and kind of Michael in that testimony with the psionics because we have historical testimony that these psionic assets used to summon craft are are treated like crap, you know, given

drug cocktails and so forth to perform efficiently and that could result in danger or death. And we also have Jake and the Psionics team saying they take, you know, quite a bit of of pride in those actions. So there's a discrepancy there. And if there's people like being being hurt or, you know, being given drugs forcibly, that's that's bad. That's very bad. It's definitely bad. Yeah. It's not cool. Um and then the idea too where I don't feel like I have probably the most concrete and good orientation towards this and it's it's something I struggle with because it's like you cover some of this stuff and it just

leads you into dark territory. Yeah. And it leads you into the territory of like, yeah, I want people to know that this stuff is real. That reality is more expanded than we, you know, realize. But the only way to do that is to uncover some pretty gnarly, messed up truths around like how this stuff has become operationalized. And the government's orientation towards this is how can this confer a tactical advantage for us? And I think it the orientation should be how can this be get more meaning for people and civil

side infrastructure updates and then great if there are derivative technologies that allow us to protect the free world in a more effective way of course they should be funneled to like the right thing but it feels like the impetus like the sole impetus is weaponization of this stuff and I don't think that ends well if there's an intelligence on the other side of it which I think there is I don't think that ends Well, for us, if that's if that's continues to be our orientation towards this topic, we're dealing with forces way greater than us.

And I don't think it's I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, OAP and, you know, a lot of these programs, the people come out and they're kind of haunted. They have these hitchhiker Um, I think it's sort of, you know, the two sort of uh uh mantras in UFO research world are like seek and you shall find and [ __ ] around and find out. Look into the stare into the void and it stares back. Stares right back. And it's a mirror of what you feel. And people the description of the sphere often when people, you know, are are are look, you know, they're looking at for this psionic connection between this

participant and these materials, they're often what's inside of them gets excavated and mirrored in this I mean, it's almost it's also very poignant like looking at the testimony of of Corso as well. He said that the purpose of giving this technology to US industry was a to bolster the US war machine and benefit the American people if necessary. these these technologies clearly have not been used to um benefit the American people. But if if they're used to create, you know, alien reproduction vehicles, which I believe they are, and possibly service an

unidentified space program or um you know, in near Earth orbit defense capabilities or payload delivery or um human relocation as as Michael saw with the large football field sized eight gone craft or operate underground and deep underground military bases, it's clear that that's a very disturbing reality in which we live because that's 80 years of programs, right, that have have had time to to flourish and hide themselves and like layer on themselves. [laughter] That's a very frightening It is a very frightening world. I just retweeted Scott Adams, you know, the the

Dilbert creator, and he said, you know, wherever there is complexity, there is fraud. And I just thought that was so applicable to the UFO question. There is an absurd amount of complexity to the point where disclosure has taken a quantum leap around this Jake Barber story and some of the other stories. And like mainstream media could not give less of a [ __ ] They don't. It was horrible timing around the inauguration like peak news mania and then you this that's when you release this thing that's beyond the pale for most people and you're you're you're peacemealing in

psionics and all these other things and that that's and I love Ross Coulter. I think he's an amazing investigative and I I I think Jake is beyond reproach as well. So it's not a knock on either of them. It's a knock on the timing and maybe News Nation's editing team. Yeah, but it's like for the 45minut special that had to be like on the editing that was not good. And then everybody started it started to be vindicated when Ross did this amazing followup with 2 hour 47 minute and then with of course I thought one of

out and whistleblower so forth. Like I've even noticed a a larger concentration of revisiting and kind of discrediting Grush as well, who I find beyond reproach probably more than anybody else. Yeah, dude. that that guy's like motivated by the right stuff. He's pieced together so much and he's been treated like [ __ ] And I think I think his disclosure was done in the his disclosures were done in the in the greatest manner possible where if you have disclosures but can't necessarily provide firsthand evidence, he provided so much actionable

intelligence whether to pursue IRA contracts, Idiq contracts, uh embedding of programs, history of programs, certain retrieval incidents, malstrom air force base incidents. He provided so much actionable intelligence, hundreds of documents, I think maybe a thousand pages plus to the IC inspector general, Thomas Minheim, who's now out and they've not they've they haven't done anything about it and unless you can look at those documents and all we have is that Thomas Minheim said it was urgent and credible and nobody has

debunked anything in those documents. So unless you can debunk stuff in that in those documents, then you need to take action on what this guy is saying. It's absurd. The only knocks people have against Grush is the Ken Clipstein hit piece or the fact his op-ed didn't come where where Ken Clipstein basically Clippenstein um he admitted to uh uh Cigar and Crystal uh Crystal and Cigar the um the breaking points you know guys he admitted that like the DoD and IC

like tipped him off on the story basically. Yeah. So it's it's just crazy like and then the USA ID we now know was funding the Intercept. I don't know how much of that specifically made its way to Ken Clippenstein but like and the dude the dude has all these like secret sources from the USA ID. So he's like he's a bad faith actor. I'm sorry. And I made a tweet to that effect and I got threatened to somebody threatened to sue me and I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to amplify them. They're really bad actors and uh

uh they've also questioned the service records of you know Randy Anderson and Jake Barber which is just I think disgusting to be honest like don't don't go after that you know there was a lot of talk about like the combat controller pipeline even though that Jake has said numerous times he was in the pipeline for combat controller but then was diverted elsewhere. These guys just and yeah one of them specifically has a clearance and it's like I don't know what he's up to. I don't know if he's a bad I don't know if he's act actually acting like he wants to be a paid disinfo agent but he hasn't gotten the contract yet and he's

actually just like this small time guy. I think part of this is as well there's like some popularity to go against kind of the the disclosure movement and there see there's like a couple uh like prominent channels that really base their entire um entire fame off of just debunking everything like almost pre-debunking stuff like a teaser of Jake Barber would come out and they'd already be debunking stuff it yeah to totally and they wouldn't listen they don't listen to any of the details and their priors are entirely off because they take nothing seriously so

it's Their AAMS razor is it's all mass hysteria which if you look at the levels of government that are now saying that this is real your AAMS which is like a cabal controlling all these people it's it's the greatest mass hysteria in the history of it's the best scop in the world by standard deviations if that's your claim which is itself a fantastical null hypothesis. So these people are they're they suck. Honestly, the Cabal stuff is nonsense because it's all talked about in the frame of ATIP and OAP, which as we've talked about

throughout this whole conversation. There's going back to Robert Sarbacher in 1950 and even before in 1933 with Mussolini. There are so many other players involved. There is not there might be a a lot of reoccurring players that we've also talked about as well in recent disclosures, but the circular reporting this crash retrieval and reverse engineering is not isolated to a small group of people. Oh, it's not at all. If anything, the the intelligence community tactic to kind of repress this stuff has been flood the zone. Yeah. So, there's just too much snake oil to sift through for the average person. I

think it moved from secrecy under Blue Book in the 50s and 60s and then the 80s at some point around the Majestic 12 stuff. This stuff started to get promoted but with all sorts of quackery and you have Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent and other counterintel people like Rick Dodie being like there are six alien being and like John Lear saying you know there's a soul catcher on the moon and that's starting to pop back up with some of Rick Dod's disciples like the guy I think who's in prison who who tweets all the time like let me show you a photo of an extraterrestrial and it'll just be a random image right

and so forth. So that's that's starting to pop back up. Yeah. So that it's just Yeah. I don't know. I'd love to because I think um Earnest debate is always good and Mick West people say he's like a paid asset or whatever. I you know I enjoyed like having him on to debate Merrick and we were debated all the top UFO videos and I thought that was like fun and good and he doesn't seem like you know he's like I want more light shine shone on this. I think he could be a little more like earnestly open to some of this

stuff, but like some of these other guys are just just like bad vibes and like it's totally it's all ad homonym and it's it's uh you know they threaten lawfare and stuff and it's whack. It's like it's I I hope you uh I don't know just introspect a little bit if if you know I mean again read between the lines see if this applies to you because I don't want to mention anybody but it's like just think about like what you're do like are you really on the right side of history well also step back and study the subject a little more because even if you're not ready to make the jump

at UFOs and Battel. Well, go watch your channel, too, UAP GR because it it's a like I said, it's literally a fire hose. It's a cannon of like absurd amounts of information to the point where you can't just dismiss it all. There's something going on. Even if that something is slightly adjacent to the consensus truth we all think on aliens, UFOs, maybe the rest of the iceberg doesn't look like the tip of the iceberg, that's fine. I don't think anybody on the pro- UFO side is dogmatic about that. I think it's just this stuff is worthy of investigation, which

clearly it is. And if you're still just trying to figure out are do UFOs exist? Just go look at all the dang military reports of of pilots and so forth citing UFOs like uh uh the Malms from case people dismiss that but that's a great one to study. Menot Air Force Base in which I think a C1 or sorry a B2 bomber encountered a saucer flying around it deelevating. There's so many stories. Just go read through the the blue book files of the unexplained cases. Yeah. No, there there are an enormous amount and a and anybody in the government capacity looking at this sort

of, you know, earnestly always comes to the same conclusion, which is there's something probably here. Yeah, as Eric Davis says, there's a there there clearly. Well, uh, Sammy UAP Group, this has been an absolute honor. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? I mean, there probably hundred other things you could talk about, but yeah, nothing really. There's so much stuff we could talk about. I just say to everybody, uh, keep investigating crash retrievals and reverse engineering. There's a ton of interesting cases and interesting studies and corporations and

military requirements and send out foyer requests as well. A no answer and a denial is always an answer within itself. We didn't even get to that story of the whistleblower who talked about was it an eggshaped craft like off on the Azors like off of Portugal? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that we'll we'll save that because I I plan to talk to that guy soon. But it's a person who was stationed with the USAF who claimed to see a uh a Tic Tac. A tic tac. That's right. Unloaded from a C130 Hercules.

And there's a lot of good research there as well that C130s are often transport or what do you mean good research? Oh, just that this this incident. Yeah, there there's a because of course this guy when when I studied this case, he doesn't have photos or reports on the actual craft, but the information he can share, which is like the insignia on the C130 and on the nearby vans, just even even just the C130 that unloads the Tic Tac and knowing what military wing that's from can lead to such bountiful research

because then you can look where the C130 is from. You can look at nearby contractors. You can look at nearby air wings. You can look at nearby FFRDC's and start to piece together some interesting stuff based off the I love it, man. Well, go subscribe to UAP Gerb. Check out you're doing a followup with Randy Anderson. It'll probably be out or around out. Yeah. When we put this out and I know you're going to do an amazing job there. And you're not only going to talk about, you know, talk to him, corroborate his story, but also or or try to stress test it, you know, whatever, but um also go really deep

into, you know, the specific contractor SIC, which was likely involved in this sort of, you know, psychotronic or psionic research. Um so yeah, it's been an honor, Sammy. Really appreciate you stopping by, man. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, appreciate it. Absolutely. All right.